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Jack of Blades
30-09-2015, 16:35
First Nurgle. His emotion is despair. But if his own followers feel despair, shouldn't they be quite ineffective? that's not exactly an animating emotion after all. So either it doesn't make sense or Nurgle is really like a nightmare version of pop buddhism, making you reach nirvana through despair rather than harmony. But how would that work? for you to despair there would be something you would want beyond what you have now that you have given up hope of reaching. I guess you could say that when someone finally gives his soul to Nurgle it's over, but I don't like the idea of the Chaos gods as a band of rationally conscious mustache-twirlers. For the most part I prefer that giving your soul to Chaos is more so an after-effect of that Ruinous Powers's actions, like infecting you with a disease in Nurgle's case, or of the mortal's own will or at least cause. I prefer that the Dark Gods are forces of nature to a extent in their being than they are "bad guy" villain-persons, and that even their "bad guy" motivations like the Horus Heresy are really results of and grounded in their own nature. But Nurgle's followers just want to further the work of Nurgle and receive his blessings, right? hope is Nurgle's antithesis so they can't despair by definition, can they? So do they somehow feel despair, or does Nurgle make his own followers not provide him with the sustenance he lives on? how does it work?

Tzeentch probably wants his enemies to feel hope. Not just when he is actively leading them on, but he wants as many creatures to feel hope as much as possible just like the other gods want them to feel their emotions. But how could he possibly sustain that if his followers cause so much destruction, death and anarchy? isn't that completely counterproductive? or maybe Tzeentch is actually partially behind stuff like the cult of the Emperor, because if humans believe that the material life is a passing-through to the happy everlife with the Emperor, then they will be hopeful even in death. One theory would be that Tzeentch is actually a "corrupted" Warp-entity. With the exceptions of stuff like people hoping misfortune befalls someone else for their personal ambitions, hope is a pretty good emotion, and the reason why Tzeentch is the most mind-boggling Dark God is precisely because his benign emotion is twisted into evil by the denizens of the Materium in addition to it being a "good" emotion, forcibly making Tzeentch into a paradox. And that is why Tzeentch unendingly plots and schemes for its own sake. He is no more than a potentially benign but now corrupted reflection of the galaxy's mortal creatures' twisted minds.

Okuto
30-09-2015, 17:31
So you're trying to point out weaknesses in the fluff of 40k and let alone chaos?:confused:

This is the same galaxy that people hit each other with rocks when world ending weapons exist, the same place that people think AI is a spirit to be praised, where chaos worshippers wage completely irrational idiotic wars for war's sake, etc etc.


Chaos is just that.....chaos. The Chaos Gods are all walking contradictions/double standards in their own way, khorne hates magic but doesn't mind using magic items to further his goals, Nurgle likes decay but spares Isha, Slaanesh appreciates beauty but has bad taste;) and Tzeentch loves carefully organized plots but never acts fully upon them himself, wasting it.

They just get away with it because none of their followers question it

To try and understand the workings of chaos is the very definition of insanity:D

Jack of Blades
30-09-2015, 17:41
Yes but those are things that can all be explained even if it at first glance seems contradictory. I don't mean things that aren't "realistic" but explainable in the universe of 40k. What I wrote doesn't add up to me in an out-of-universe way, in of itself.

Andy089
30-09-2015, 18:22
Well as far as I know how Nurgle works is it throws nasty stuff at you until you lose hope. That's what happened to Mortarion I think. With their ship and all. And once you see that there is no hope, you spread that believe by doing the very same thing to others: Doing nasty things until they realize there is no hope.

The thing with tzeentch is that hope can be a good and a bad thing. But tzeentch isn't obviously "bad" or does only bad stuff. he plans and sometimes does seemingly good things that might turn out bad as part of this plan.

gwarsh41
30-09-2015, 18:42
From what I have read, Nurgle isn't just despair, him and Tzeentch are much less monochrome than Khorne and Slaanesh. Liber Chaotica: Nurgle, it is questioned how it would seem that Nurgle is the god of despair, however all his followers are happy and joyous. All daemons of nurgle, straight down to the mindless beasts of nurgle, who act like big slobbering puppies, are the embodiment of a joyful grandfather. However these same daemons spread despair with each breath. So how is it that what we see and what happens are different? Nurgle creates endless life through his poxes and plagues, he loves every nurgling and is always smiling. (check out what happened to Ku'Gath for a good example of Nurgle=Chill).
So, if we cite the most frequent fluff, the Daemons codex (as Liber Chaotica, as awesome as it is, is slightly out of date) we find exactly what Nurgle embodies. Like Tzeentch, Nurgle cheats a little bit, not being as monochromatic as Khorne or Slaanesh. "He is the hidden fear of disease and decay, the gnawing truth of mortality and the power of defiance it generates." How cheating is that? Nurgle is the god of fear of decay, and the want and need to defy against it. From another perspective, Nurgle is the true god of life and death.
As for the followers, at least mortal ones, as daemons are just literal parts of Nurgle. Nurgle will spread a plague, and then promise those who are infected that they will live if they accept him. This would bring out the defiance against death from pox, fueling Nurgle even more, and once the followers are taken into Nurgles embrace. He grants them unusual endurance and stamina. It is noted that the followers feel refreshed, and sometimes like a new person. This part is from Liber Chaotica again, so it may have been changed in CSM or Warriors of Chaos.

The Daemons codex specifically states, "Tzeentch feeds on the need and desire for change that is an essential part of all living things". Tzeentch is a bit of a cheater here though, as the needs and desires for change are both positive and negative. This is part of why Tzeentch is so powerful. A sailor desires shore leave, while a young noble looks to change his standing in the realm. Both of these are a yearning for something different, while some may be hopeful, some might also be drenched in malice. Through magic, tzeentch gains the most powerful ways to change, and I believe it is because those who take part in the magic arts are the easiest for Tzeentch to corrupt. As these ones generally have great desires and needs for change. A sorcerer changing the air into a fireball to defend his family will most likely feed Tzeentch more than a homeless person looking to change how hungry he is. Tzeentch likes to make mortals want change, and in many cases, he gives them the change, but then he takes it away. This makes them want it again, but more, and now they are willing to give something back for it. If Tzeentch gives the homeless a cooked chicken, but then it is turned to ash midway through, it will most likely cause an even more intense yearn for change. Now the homeless person wants the ash to change back to chicken. So Tzeentch gives him a chicken, as an arm.


Now, as for the eternal feud between the two. Tzeentch hates the hell out of Nurgle for one glaring reason. Tzeentch do jack worth squat about the garden of Nurgle. Every possible future Tzeentch can gaze into, and the garden of Nurgle is different than all of them. The poxes are eternally changing, evolving and becoming something new. No one yearns for this change, it is just the way of life, so it brings no power to Tzeentch himself. It is a mockery of all that Tzeentch works for. Khorne hates Slaanesh because Slaanesh has no honor (or something like that) and I honestly cannot remember why Slaanesh hates Khorne. Tzeentch hates Nurgle for many reasons, another is that all the infinite planning he has done will be for naught if Nurgle makes a potent enough plague, and Tzeentch wont be able to stop it.

I hope this helped!

bittick
30-09-2015, 19:30
Nurgle isn't despair, and Tzeentch isn't hope. Those may be aspects of their personalities, but it isn't the sum of who they are.

Hope is a positive aspect of Tzeentch, like Courage is for Khorne, and Love for Slaanesh. One of Nurgle's positive traits would be a sort of happy-go-lucky, always look on the bright side acceptance. Oh bla di, oh bla dah, life goes on. Chaos becomes Chaos , as we think of it, when the positive traits become corrupted and twisted, pushed to such an extreme that they glorify other emotions. It isn't just Hope for a brighter future, it's an all-consuming drive to seize power, to stab others in the back, to lead rebellions, to harness the forces of magic and affect change for the sake of change. It is not enough to just make yourself king (though many Tzeentch followers start with that goal in mind). It is ever increasing ambition for ever more power, it is rebellion to the point of pure anarchy, of chaos (lowercase "c"). While a Tzeentch follower has specific goals in mind, Tzeentch himself just likes the process.

Nurgle is a force of entropy. Like an arsonist who wants to just sit and watch the fire burn, a Nurgle worshiper delights in the breakdown of order. Decay, rot, the end of life. A Nurgle worshiper has a happy-go-lucky approach to this. He has long accepted that the proper state of the world is one that inevitably falls apart. Ever stare with wicked fascination at a car crash, and a little part of you kind of wanted to see a mutilated body? Millions of people clog up the highways every year, slowing down to gawk at accidents. Despair feeds Nurgle, because it's a powerful emotional response to death and disease. But his followers don't necessarily feel it. There's a happy acceptance there, and a joy in seeing it inflicted upon others.

sunborn
01-10-2015, 00:04
Some of these people alluded to the real thing that needs to be said: the gods of Chaos are neither Evil nor Good. They are CHAOS, they transcend evil and good. Chaos, as much as Order, is both good and evil.


First Nurgle. His emotion is despair. But if his own followers feel despair, shouldn't they be quite ineffective? that's not exactly an animating emotion after all. So either it doesn't make sense or Nurgle is really like a nightmare version of pop buddhism, making you reach nirvana through despair rather than harmony. But how would that work? for you to despair there would be something you would want beyond what you have now that you have given up hope of reaching. I guess you could say that when someone finally gives his soul to Nurgle it's over, but I don't like the idea of the Chaos gods as a band of rationally conscious mustache-twirlers. For the most part I prefer that giving your soul to Chaos is more so an after-effect of that Ruinous Powers's actions, like infecting you with a disease in Nurgle's case, or of the mortal's own will or at least cause. I prefer that the Dark Gods are forces of nature to a extent in their being than they are "bad guy" villain-persons, and that even their "bad guy" motivations like the Horus Heresy are really results of and grounded in their own nature. But Nurgle's followers just want to further the work of Nurgle and receive his blessings, right? hope is Nurgle's antithesis so they can't despair by definition, can they? So do they somehow feel despair, or does Nurgle make his own followers not provide him with the sustenance he lives on? how does it work?


Nurgle can be sustained because he embodies acceptance of all things. At no time do Nurgle's true believers despair because they find in him acceptance of all things, death included.


Tzeentch probably wants his enemies to feel hope. Not just when he is actively leading them on, but he wants as many creatures to feel hope as much as possible just like the other gods want them to feel their emotions. But how could he possibly sustain that if his followers cause so much destruction, death and anarchy? isn't that completely counterproductive? or maybe Tzeentch is actually partially behind stuff like the cult of the Emperor, because if humans believe that the material life is a passing-through to the happy everlife with the Emperor, then they will be hopeful even in death. One theory would be that Tzeentch is actually a "corrupted" Warp-entity. With the exceptions of stuff like people hoping misfortune befalls someone else for their personal ambitions, hope is a pretty good emotion, and the reason why Tzeentch is the most mind-boggling Dark God is precisely because his benign emotion is twisted into evil by the denizens of the Materium in addition to it being a "good" emotion, forcibly making Tzeentch into a paradox. And that is why Tzeentch unendingly plots and schemes for its own sake. He is no more than a potentially benign but now corrupted reflection of the galaxy's mortal creatures' twisted minds.

Tzeentch is all about hope that things will change for the better. For all the mess that Tzeentch or (its followers) can make, they always hope that the outcome is better than when they started.

TheSaylesMan
01-10-2015, 02:16
Nurgle has a hard job. His followers go through a cycle of despair, acceptance and then spreading despair again. Its one of the reasons that Nurgle uses disease. A disease is a naturally spreading phenomena. Nurgle needs carriers to bring despair to others. Technically a person could turn to Nurgle because of drought or famine or the rigors of war or any number of cataclysmic events that cause human suffering. The problem is that if someone is starving to death and turns to Nurgle he doesn't drag around the famine with him without some serious magic going on. A disease will just naturally jump from person to person. Anyway, Nurgle's despair is intense but fleeting and requires more people to sustain itself.

I think that you are downplaying the amount of scheming and potential hope that goes on in the war. If we can just take this fuel depot we can grind the enemy war machine to a halt. If we can just eliminate the enemy commander their structure would be in tatters. And that's all just conventional warfare of two sides going at each other. Take a look at modern day Syria and Iraq. You have the Assad Regime, Al Nusra, Al Queda, The Islamic State, The Free Syrian Army, Hezbollah, United States military equipment being supplied to rebels while marines work on the ground and planes bomb strategic locations, Russia's military is getting itself involved plus their support of Assad Regime, Chinese military forces, Saudi Arabian benefactors providing funds to their rebels of choice, Israel bombing strategic locations and I'm sure I have missed some things. All these different factions all with their own ideology, ambitions, long-reaching plans and diplomacy with one another. The sheer amount of planning and scheming and 'hope' going on there is huge. In 40k where there is potential for that kind of scenario to play out on an interplanetary level that is a ton of potential for Tzeentch to reap benefit from.

Russell's teapot
01-10-2015, 11:49
You need to ask MvS - he literally wrote the book on it. And did a mighty fine job too - I'm re-reading it at the moment.

gwarsh41
01-10-2015, 14:04
Gotta say, surprised how off some comments are. It is spelled out in the Chaos Daemons codex.

blackcherry
01-10-2015, 14:54
Gotta say, surprised how off some comments are. It is spelled out in the Chaos Daemons codex.

How does it differ in the Daemons Codex gwarsh41? I don't have the current edition, but the last edition codex did stick to many of the tenants here, if a bit simplified because they don't several hundred pages to delve into them in depth (as they did in Liber Chaotica).

gwarsh41
01-10-2015, 15:10
The new codex doesn't have more but a single page on each god's morals, abilities and feats. Most of the book is all about their realm, and the daemons they produce. These are two quotes straight out of the book.

[Nurgle]"is the hidden fear of disease and decay, the gnawing truth of mortality and the power of defiance it generates.

"Tzeentch feeds on the need and desire for change that is an essential part of all living things"

So the confusion for the original post (according to the most recent fluff) is cleared up, by just learning what these two gods are fueled by. Instead of despair vs hope, its fear/defiance(of decay) vs need/desire for change. Tzeentch is just a little more abstract than the other gods, he legit is the god of change, and is fueled by emotions around it. Come on though, its Tzeentch, things about Tzeentch should be hard to understand.

TheSaylesMan
01-10-2015, 20:52
Gotta say, surprised how off some comments are. It is spelled out in the Chaos Daemons codex.

You mean the books that took the gods that were raw, incomprehensible maelstroms of thoughts, emotions, worship and souls from every point of time and space and turned them into people with wants and desires with places they lived and ground beneath their feet? The books that cemented the fact that Chaos Undivided doesn't exist? The books that took the idea of Chaos as infinite and full of more things that we could possibly imagine and changed it so that all Daemons are affiliated with a god like Pokemon have types with the only exception being terrible things like the Forge of Souls? Pass. Those books are complete garbage and the absolute worst thing to happen to Chaos. I can't help but grind my teeth at the attempted destruction of one of the only vaguely Lovecraftian beings in 40k. We used to have immense beings that transcended causality and who's forms are literally incomprehensible to humanity and glimpses of them caused brains to melt. The less said about those travesties the better.

Jack of Blades
01-10-2015, 21:07
Thanks guys. I expected no less of Warseer than such posts as many of you in this thread have made ;)


You mean the books that took the gods that were raw, incomprehensible maelstroms of thoughts, emotions, worship and souls from every point of time and space and turned them into people with wants and desires with places they lived and ground beneath their feet? The books that cemented the fact that Chaos Undivided doesn't exist? The books that took the idea of Chaos as infinite and full of more things that we could possibly imagine and changed it so that all Daemons are affiliated with a god like Pokemon have types with the only exception being terrible things like the Forge of Souls? Pass. Those books are complete garbage and the absolute worst thing to happen to Chaos. I can't help but grind my teeth at the attempted destruction of one of the only vaguely Lovecraftian beings in 40k. We used to have immense beings that transcended causality and who's forms are literally incomprehensible to humanity and glimpses of them caused brains to melt. The less said about those travesties the better.

Couldn't agree more with this entire paragraph.

memitchell747
02-10-2015, 15:01
The four Chaos Gods roughly (but not exactly ) correspond to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
War=Khorne (duh.)
Famine=Slaneesh (starving, desire, hunger)
Pestilence=Nurgle (This is the one Chaos God I don't get. Why there is great joy and celebration of disease and decay is forced to me, which makes me thing Nurgle was definitely from the Four ).
Death=Tzeench (a bit of a stretch, but death is change, and afterlife is a kind of magical realm).

Not a perfect fit, and other influences probably come into play (Lovecraft?). But, an outline for how the four Chaos Gods came to be. in the background.

Jape
02-10-2015, 15:48
You mean the books that took the gods that were raw, incomprehensible maelstroms of thoughts, emotions, worship and souls from every point of time and space and turned them into people with wants and desires with places they lived and ground beneath their feet? The books that cemented the fact that Chaos Undivided doesn't exist? The books that took the idea of Chaos as infinite and full of more things that we could possibly imagine and changed it so that all Daemons are affiliated with a god like Pokemon have types with the only exception being terrible things like the Forge of Souls? Pass. Those books are complete garbage and the absolute worst thing to happen to Chaos. I can't help but grind my teeth at the attempted destruction of one of the only vaguely Lovecraftian beings in 40k. We used to have immense beings that transcended causality and who's forms are literally incomprehensible to humanity and glimpses of them caused brains to melt. The less said about those travesties the better.

Indeed. In a thread over at Dakka Dakka talking about just how 'alien' the Chaos Powers are even to their greatest servants, I joked its not like Abaddon and the Four Gods sit around at Castle Doom in armchairs planning their next evil scheme. Seems I wasn't up on the new fluff.

bittick
02-10-2015, 17:15
Indeed. In a thread over at Dakka Dakka talking about just how 'alien' the Chaos Powers are even to their greatest servants, I joked its not like Abaddon and the Four Gods sit around at Castle Doom in armchairs planning their next evil scheme. Seems I wasn't up on the new fluff.

Well, you can have both. The Warp is psychoreactive -- it responds to people's thoughts and emotions. If enough people visualize Khorne as a big red guy on a throne, then there will be a big red guy on a throne somewhere in the Warp. And he'll act like Khorne is supposed to act. Now that's not all that Khorne is. I'm sure a lot of his followers think that's exactly what he is, though. A lot of the stuff you read about, Slaanesh and Kaela Mensha Khaine fighting each other in combat, that can play out in a literal sense in the Warp. The regular laws of physics, and even causality, don't always apply in the Warp.

I bet a lot of sorcerers get screwed because they think of the Warp in a single way. They think they're making a deal with Tzeentch, like he's a guy or something. And he is a guy, but he's also a Warp hurricane. And he's not only the guy that you visualize, the human concept of Tzeentch, he's also got a little bit of an aspect of Mork in him. And there's a little bit of the Eldar Laughing God in there, just a bit. And some tentacled creatures that live in gas giants that the Imperium hasn't encountered, their concept of Tzeentch is there also. And it all changes and shifts at a moment's notice. So yeah, he's the bird guy. But what you're really doing is seeing shapes in the clouds. Somebody looking at the same cloud from a different angle sees a different thing. And it's all psycho-reactive, so stuff happens not only in myths and legend, but for real. But some of those myths are contradictory, so they both happened and they didn't happen. It's confusing stuff.

At the end of the day, it's really hard to write "ancient unknowable beings that man cannot possibly comprehend" and then go into a lot of detail so the reader can understand it. You know, cuz it's unknowable and stuff.

Razios
02-10-2015, 19:52
At the end of the day, it's really hard to write "ancient unknowable beings that man cannot possibly comprehend" and then go into a lot of detail so the reader can understand it. You know, cuz it's unknowable and stuff.

The problem here is that the chaos gods are a mix between moorock gods, lovecraft abominations and good old pagan deity with a clear vein of satanic imaginry, so GW try to balance this sometimes and other....they just dont bother

Muad'Dib
02-10-2015, 20:59
Indeed. In a thread over at Dakka Dakka talking about just how 'alien' the Chaos Powers are even to their greatest servants, I joked its not like Abaddon and the Four Gods sit around at Castle Doom in armchairs planning their next evil scheme. Seems I wasn't up on the new fluff.
The Wyrm (or the Weaver) from old World of Darkness or the Maeljin Incarna from Werewolf the Forsaken seem to me very apt comparisons through which one might better understand the Chaos Gods; they are more akin to elemental forces than anthropomorphized gods, in many respects.

TheSaylesMan
02-10-2015, 21:09
Well, you can have both. The Warp is psychoreactive -- it responds to people's thoughts and emotions. If enough people visualize Khorne as a big red guy on a throne, then there will be a big red guy on a throne somewhere in the Warp. And he'll act like Khorne is supposed to act. Now that's not all that Khorne is. I'm sure a lot of his followers think that's exactly what he is, though. A lot of the stuff you read about, Slaanesh and Kaela Mensha Khaine fighting each other in combat, that can play out in a literal sense in the Warp. The regular laws of physics, and even causality, don't always apply in the Warp.

I bet a lot of sorcerers get screwed because they think of the Warp in a single way. They think they're making a deal with Tzeentch, like he's a guy or something. And he is a guy, but he's also a Warp hurricane. And he's not only the guy that you visualize, the human concept of Tzeentch, he's also got a little bit of an aspect of Mork in him. And there's a little bit of the Eldar Laughing God in there, just a bit. And some tentacled creatures that live in gas giants that the Imperium hasn't encountered, their concept of Tzeentch is there also. And it all changes and shifts at a moment's notice. So yeah, he's the bird guy. But what you're really doing is seeing shapes in the clouds. Somebody looking at the same cloud from a different angle sees a different thing. And it's all psycho-reactive, so stuff happens not only in myths and legend, but for real. But some of those myths are contradictory, so they both happened and they didn't happen. It's confusing stuff.

At the end of the day, it's really hard to write "ancient unknowable beings that man cannot possibly comprehend" and then go into a lot of detail so the reader can understand it. You know, cuz it's unknowable and stuff.

I totally understand the idea of primitive peoples anthropomorphizing forces beyond the scope of their comprehension. I actively embrace that mentality to reconcile the Daemon codex with older material. However, I recognize that these are just rationalizations as most material in those books is told from the viewpoint of an omniscient narrator. You can't really argue with it when it is presented in such a context.

Also, there will NOT be a big red guy somewhere in the Warp because of belief. The Warp may be psychoreactive but it is still doesn't have any matter. A Bloodthirster or a Bloodletter doesn't look like their models do on the tabletop when they are in the Warp. They look like that in the material universe because they have been woven into temporary physical forms. In the Warp they are energy. That energy can flow or freeze into jagged shapes. It can spiral and expand and contract and slip sideways through time. It is however, always in flux. It doesn't need any of the features that they have in the material universe. It doesn't have muscles or bones because it has no need for that kind of locomotion because it isn't an animal moving in a gravity well. It doesn't have eyes because it doesn't need to see nor does it have a mouth or teeth because it doesn't need to eat. It only gains these things as a means of interacting with material beings and only because those forms reflect the thoughts and expectations of the mortals in question.

Saying that they gain these traits while in their natural habitat is silly. If it were true looking into the Warp wouldn't be harmful because you would only ever see what you expect to see. Instead it causes brain damage and leaves lasting impressions of imaginary things that are the result of the mind desperately trying to fit what it sensed into a box it comprehends. Khorne wouldn't be a big red guy on a throne of skulls. The big red guy on a throne of skulls is just what somebody rationalized it as when they caught a glimpse of something they shouldn't have, their brain clung to notions it could understand and the meme spread. I think you overestimate the psychoreactive nature of the Warp in a way that gives far too much power to mortals in the interaction. Mortals may have their hand in shaping Chaos but Chaos very much has a hand in shaping mortals as well.

Razios
02-10-2015, 22:11
but that clash with some fluff like keeper of secreat being created by Slaanesh humor or unclean ones looking like Nurgle itself, or even the beast that associed with wach god(Nurgle-Fly,Khrone-Wolf,Tzeetch-vultures,Slaanesh-Serpents).

Also Khrone is not the big red guy, he is also the fortress and the whole realm is part of him as everything else, such is the nature of chaos.

blackcherry
03-10-2015, 21:30
There are pockets of solidified Warp energy/matter in the Warp. Places like the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom show this due to the number of planets that exist within them. But if its the unique nature of the warp space anomaly that allows them to exist or another reason, we simply don't know if I remember correctly.

I do know that some planets are just formed wholesale and exist/morph at the whims of the controlling intelligence on the planet.

=Angel=
05-10-2015, 12:57
A massive rebellion breaks out in a hive. The noble and proud are torn from their beds and murdered in a night of horror.
Which chaos gods had his/her/xer hand in this?

If it was a genuine grassroots rebellion of worker dissent, pulling down institutions and trying to get some kind of autonomous anarchist collective going, it may well be Nurgle. Pulling down the powerful and breeding amongst the filtht rabble is his deal.
Despair and despondency fuel his power, he grants his followers an escape from the effects of this and his other diseases.

Was it just a massacre for violence sake? Khorne may have intiated it though some of his champions with the goal of creating a charnel house.

Was it a rebellion against restrictive laws? Do the rebels even now engage in horrific acts of degeneracy with the corpses of the slain who opposed them? Slaanesh.

Or even if any or all of the above were true, is there a man behind the scenes lifting a crystal goblet of champagne to toast his fallen enemies? Did he put all of this chaos in motion in support of some grand scheme to propel himself to greater power or position?
Tzeentch was behind it all, all along. The Champions of Khorne may be even now beheading the family and guards of the governor and the slaaneshi taking his harem to grind up into narcotics, the Nurglite cult of despair plunging half the hive into darkness by suicide bombing the power generators....

But one man and perhaps his cabal of conspirators started it all last night.
The Khornate cult leader was drinking where he always drinks and a nobleman who had gotten 'lost' was pushed into him, spilling his drink..

bittick
05-10-2015, 18:49
I totally understand the idea of primitive peoples anthropomorphizing forces beyond the scope of their comprehension. I actively embrace that mentality to reconcile the Daemon codex with older material. However, I recognize that these are just rationalizations as most material in those books is told from the viewpoint of an omniscient narrator. You can't really argue with it when it is presented in such a context.

Also, there will NOT be a big red guy somewhere in the Warp because of belief. The Warp may be psychoreactive but it is still doesn't have any matter. A Bloodthirster or a Bloodletter doesn't look like their models do on the tabletop when they are in the Warp. They look like that in the material universe because they have been woven into temporary physical forms. In the Warp they are energy. That energy can flow or freeze into jagged shapes. It can spiral and expand and contract and slip sideways through time. It is however, always in flux. It doesn't need any of the features that they have in the material universe. It doesn't have muscles or bones because it has no need for that kind of locomotion because it isn't an animal moving in a gravity well. It doesn't have eyes because it doesn't need to see nor does it have a mouth or teeth because it doesn't need to eat. It only gains these things as a means of interacting with material beings and only because those forms reflect the thoughts and expectations of the mortals in question.

Saying that they gain these traits while in their natural habitat is silly. If it were true looking into the Warp wouldn't be harmful because you would only ever see what you expect to see. Instead it causes brain damage and leaves lasting impressions of imaginary things that are the result of the mind desperately trying to fit what it sensed into a box it comprehends. Khorne wouldn't be a big red guy on a throne of skulls. The big red guy on a throne of skulls is just what somebody rationalized it as when they caught a glimpse of something they shouldn't have, their brain clung to notions it could understand and the meme spread. I think you overestimate the psychoreactive nature of the Warp in a way that gives far too much power to mortals in the interaction. Mortals may have their hand in shaping Chaos but Chaos very much has a hand in shaping mortals as well.

Of course they can exist physically. There are lots of descriptions of the realms of the Chaos gods as physical places. Look at the old 5th ed Chaos Demons codex and army book. The Warp is an odd, nightmare realm. Individuals are often driven insane because despite the fact that your mind can affect the Warp, and shape it, there are countless trillions of people out there. And the Warp responds to them as well. So you aren't going into a dream where you control it, you're going into the nightmares of the 500 billion people in that star sector.

Khaines Wrath
06-10-2015, 07:17
From my understanding the chaos gods are simply the manifestation of psychosis and emotion given form and sentience. They represent a spectrum of emotions which give them somewhat contradictory but simultaneously complimentary natures.

memitchell747
07-10-2015, 05:31
The Chaos Gods are also roughly analogous to the Biblical Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse:

Khorne = War (can I get a BIG Duh?)
Slaneesh = Famine (in the sense of need and desire, instead of simply empty belly)
Tzeench = Death (Death is change, and kind of a magical transformation into the afterlife, in Biblical terms)
Nurgle = Pestilence

It's a rough approximation, but an obvious one.

TheSaylesMan
07-10-2015, 23:00
Of course they can exist physically. There are lots of descriptions of the realms of the Chaos gods as physical places. Look at the old 5th ed Chaos Demons codex and army book. The Warp is an odd, nightmare realm. Individuals are often driven insane because despite the fact that your mind can affect the Warp, and shape it, there are countless trillions of people out there. And the Warp responds to them as well. So you aren't going into a dream where you control it, you're going into the nightmares of the 500 billion people in that star sector.

The Warp is a place without matter. The talk of mansions and mazes and giant palaces is a bunch of crap. With no matter there is no physicality. Physicality is the antithesis of Chaos. Its supposed to be of no form and many forms. Its supposed to be abstract. Its supposed to be unknowable horror that melts your brain looking at it. But now Nurgle is literally just a big bloated dude that weeps puss who has a really nice house with a garden and everything. That's not horrifying! Okay it could be horrifying but in a completely mundane worldly way. I would be scared of that in real life but the Chaos Gods are supposed to be absolutely brain melting. This idea that you can just walk around through the Warp in these 'realms' in a complete turn around from older material. What is the ground beneath your feet made of? What are you breathing right now? Where's gravity coming from? Why is there even gravity? If I looked out a window on a ship in Warp transit, would I see these things? If not, why not? If so, why aren't we crashing into a pile of skulls right now? What's the pile of skulls made of?

There is only so much the Warp can be psycho-reactive to a certain level. Floors, walls, structures, gravity, and physical things of any variety are not native to the Warp. The are not native to the Warp because the Warp doesn't need these things. It developed independently of matter and all of those things formed or were created because of the laws of physics or because they would be useful in a place governed by the laws of physics. So, if they aren't native to the Warp they must be imposed upon the Warp. If you can impose so heavily upon the Warp than there's no reason for the Warp to make you insane because you would only ever see things that made sense to your brain because you were imposing on it? Do you see how much of everything the Daemon codex messed up? Its a realm beyond our understanding! It cannot have any kind of marker by which we can contextualize it by metrics applicable to the physical world!

Jack of Blades
07-10-2015, 23:16
I agree with the idea that the Warp is a realm "beyond our understanding" ie. one where the laws of physics as we know them do not exist. And the reason why you can have descriptions of the place at all is because it is also a realm fundamentally intertwined with reality. That is the reason why daemons can exist in reality. I don't think it needs a much more exact word-of-god explanation (in-universe ones however I don't mind at all, that's just good) than that because in that case it would not be beyond our understanding.

Razios
08-10-2015, 17:56
The Warp is a place without matter. The talk of mansions and mazes and giant palaces is a bunch of crap. With no matter there is no physicality. Physicality is the antithesis of Chaos. Its supposed to be of no form and many forms. Its supposed to be abstract. Its supposed to be unknowable horror that melts your brain looking at it. But now Nurgle is literally just a big bloated dude that weeps puss who has a really nice house with a garden and everything. That's not horrifying! Okay it could be horrifying but in a completely mundane worldly way. I would be scared of that in real life but the Chaos Gods are supposed to be absolutely brain melting. This idea that you can just walk around through the Warp in these 'realms' in a complete turn around from older material. What is the ground beneath your feet made of? What are you breathing right now? Where's gravity coming from? Why is there even gravity? If I looked out a window on a ship in Warp transit, would I see these things? If not, why not? If so, why aren't we crashing into a pile of skulls right now? What's the pile of skulls made of?!

What? the warp is a place that dosent flew well with casualty but that dosent mean its just a burlp of nonsens directly a your brain, it dosent work that way, is place of forest cover in eyes, castle that reach the castle when it shouldnt be, that is the scary part, not just a bunch of nonsense reach to your brain.

Also even in Jaq draco and eye of terror(the first novels pretty much) where like that.

TheSaylesMan
08-10-2015, 21:36
What? the warp is a place that dosent flew well with casualty but that dosent mean its just a burlp of nonsens directly a your brain, it dosent work that way, is place of forest cover in eyes, castle that reach the castle when it shouldnt be, that is the scary part, not just a bunch of nonsense reach to your brain.

Also even in Jaq draco and eye of terror(the first novels pretty much) where like that.

You have failed to address even a single point in the argument I was trying to make. So let's do this more simply. Its entirely possible that I am rambling and making no sense. Let's establish some ground rules as to what we understand to be the nature of the Warp. Is matter native to the Warp? By native I am excluding all of the flotsam and jetsam the winds its way into the Warp that goes on to form Space Hulks and the like. Whether or not matter is native to the Warp is fundamental in our understanding of it.

On a side note I will admit that I am too young to have caught the Inquisition War trilogy when it was new. I was however under the impression that by today's standards a bit outdated? I have come to the realization that it is probably hypocritical of me to not read some of the original, fundamental 40k novels because they are dated while I am railing against new fluff myself. I will have to remedy this and find these books.

ryng_sting
12-10-2015, 19:25
Liber Chaotica Nurgle covers every question raised in this thread, in fairness.

fluxdeluxe
12-10-2015, 19:35
The warp is both chaos and order, horror and joy, pleasure and pain. There is a mad duality to all of the powers that is quite, quite deliberate. The driving force behind the malevolence of the gods is simple, propagation. It is easier to destroy than create and within destruction comes new opportunities for creation. This the key philosophy behind the grim dark setting, its supposed to be a black mirror of our own world. The biggest leaps forward in human understanding were as a consequence of conflict, some of our greatest and most perceptive cultural contributors were inspired by violence, war, oppression, tragedy and intrigue. Order is a type of stasis (the imperium) which is desperately maintained at the cost of billions of lives which only feeds the chaotic undercurrent bubbling underneath and the hideous laughter of the dark gods.

That is the cosmic joke of the imperium, Chaos or the human concept of it will always prevail while the connection of the warp to the physical universe is so strong. The only way to beat it would be to divorce the physical from the surreal.

Razios
13-10-2015, 23:39
You have failed to address even a single point in the argument I was trying to make. So let's do this more simply. Its entirely possible that I am rambling and making no sense. Let's establish some ground rules as to what we understand to be the nature of the Warp. Is matter native to the Warp? By native I am excluding all of the flotsam and jetsam the winds its way into the Warp that goes on to form Space Hulks and the like. Whether or not matter is native to the Warp is fundamental in our understanding of it.

On a side note I will admit that I am too young to have caught the Inquisition War trilogy when it was new. I was however under the impression that by today's standards a bit outdated? I have come to the realization that it is probably hypocritical of me to not read some of the original, fundamental 40k novels because they are dated while I am railing against new fluff myself. I will have to remedy this and find these books.

the warp is not just "energy" in the physical sense, is more like a realm of emotions dreams and nightmares given form, you have planets but you can have really weird **** like two greater deamons pulling this planet, creatinga big bridged conecting them and using their army as real-version of tabletop game between the two greater deamons...

Yes, that actually happen in eye of terror, and while some concept are outdated, other are not...GW is nothing but very arbitrary about what is canon and what isnt

Scammel
14-10-2015, 18:09
Something's off if you ever find yourself saying 'No, The Warp works like this and not like that.' It's both, neither, has always existed and never existed at all and also just happens to be a good source of plot convenience.

That's not to say the Olympus-isation of the Gods in more recent work hasn't been a little jarring or just badly written at times, but almost everything that's ever been written about them still holds true.

Razios
14-10-2015, 18:27
Something's off if you ever find yourself saying 'No, The Warp, works like this and not like that.' It's both, neither, has always existed and never existed at all and also just happens to be a good source of plot convenience.

That's not to say the Olympus-isation of the Gods in more recent work hasn't been a little jarring or just badly written at times, but almost everything that's ever been written about them still holds true.

Well, so the nature of chaos, dosent it? is never one think around.

But GW have always changeing the nature of chaos when it suit them: sometime they are ver lovecrafnian, other very satanic(the great enemy) other more pagan, depend of source and what GW want in the moment.

TheSaylesMan
14-10-2015, 22:10
the warp is not just "energy" in the physical sense, is more like a realm of emotions dreams and nightmares given form, you have planets but you can have really weird **** like two greater deamons pulling this planet, creatinga big bridged conecting them and using their army as real-version of tabletop game between the two greater deamons...

Yes, that actually happen in eye of terror, and while some concept are outdated, other are not...GW is nothing but very arbitrary about what is canon and what isnt

The Warp cannot be just a place of emotions, dreams and nightmares given form. The Warp, just like the Material universe, predates all life by several orders of magnitude. I know, I know, trying to apply causality to the Warp is a bit futile. But let's try a little thought experiment shall we? Let's change the Material universe just enough so that from beginning to end, no life advanced enough to form thought manages to survive. All we have kicking around are single-celled organisms. They certainly don't have any of those emotional and intellectual hangers-on. They don't even have nervous systems. We accept that the Warp is a natural part of reality that developed just as the Material did in some respects. By that logic the Warp must exist in this hypothetical reality unless it was somehow created artificially in our timeline in which intelligent life exists. What would this emotionless, faithless, dreamless Warp look like? It has to be made of something. Calling it 'energy' is a bit crude but I'm not about to try to pioneer a word for whatever that stuff is. But yes, Warp energy must have some kind existence beyond simply being a mirror to our psyches. I've always found this view of the Warp to be too Human-centric for lack of a better word. I mean to include all intelligent life in that. Consciousness-centric perhaps? Actually I am going to call it selfish. Just because it does reflect us doesn't mean its purpose is to reflect us. Its like saying that fire exists to keep us warm and to burn us. As if we were to simply go away all fire would cease to be.

So back to the original question. Once again I have to note you have failed to address any of the points I am making. Trying to debate this. Is matter native to the Warp? Does it originate there?

Razios
14-10-2015, 23:05
The Warp cannot be just a place of emotions, dreams and nightmares given form. The Warp, just like the Material universe, predates all life by several orders of magnitude. I know, I know, trying to apply causality to the Warp is a bit futile. But let's try a little thought experiment shall we? Let's change the Material universe just enough so that from beginning to end, no life advanced enough to form thought manages to survive. All we have kicking around are single-celled organisms. They certainly don't have any of those emotional and intellectual hangers-on. They don't even have nervous systems. We accept that the Warp is a natural part of reality that developed just as the Material did in some respects. By that logic the Warp must exist in this hypothetical reality unless it was somehow created artificially in our timeline in which intelligent life exists. What would this emotionless, faithless, dreamless Warp look like? It has to be made of something. Calling it 'energy' is a bit crude but I'm not about to try to pioneer a word for whatever that stuff is. But yes, Warp energy must have some kind existence beyond simply being a mirror to our psyches. I've always found this view of the Warp to be too Human-centric for lack of a better word. I mean to include all intelligent life in that. Consciousness-centric perhaps? Actually I am going to call it selfish. Just because it does reflect us doesn't mean its purpose is to reflect us. Its like saying that fire exists to keep us warm and to burn us. As if we were to simply go away all fire would cease to be.

So back to the original question. Once again I have to note you have failed to address any of the points I am making. Trying to debate this. Is matter native to the Warp? Does it originate there?

I will look like nothing pretty much, maybe a endless mist of colours, it was pretty safe to go around them as old ones and eldar manage to kept a lot of thing before it get murky thanks to war in heanvs.

Also the Warp more than reflect it react to physical emations, even plant and beast have some sort of reaction in the warp(small and insignificant at long run of course) that is why warp based creatures(that means deamons) are so alien to us: they are made of emotion without any reflect of order or sanity atach to them.

And about your question...indeed matter exist in the inmaterium, just not sobject to whatever state the materium is hold, a deamon fortress is there only because the deamon want its and without it it disapear, hell in the novel eye of terror a deamon try to create a place where materium and inmaterium interact so ship can travel without navigator, it fails of course(thanks to another deamon actually)

TheSaylesMan
15-10-2015, 02:52
I will look like nothing pretty much, maybe a endless mist of colours, it was pretty safe to go around them as old ones and eldar manage to kept a lot of thing before it get murky thanks to war in heanvs.

Also the Warp more than reflect it react to physical emations, even plant and beast have some sort of reaction in the warp(small and insignificant at long run of course) that is why warp based creatures(that means deamons) are so alien to us: they are made of emotion without any reflect of order or sanity atach to them.

And about your question...indeed matter exist in the inmaterium, just not sobject to whatever state the materium is hold, a deamon fortress is there only because the deamon want its and without it it disapear, hell in the novel eye of terror a deamon try to create a place where materium and inmaterium interact so ship can travel without navigator, it fails of course(thanks to another deamon actually)

Okay, so you do believe that there is matter native to the Warp. That's good to know. I think our ideas as to what the Warp is are irreconcilable. I do not believe that at the moment of genesis there was any matter in the Warp and that all matter in the Warp comes from the Materium. Because there is only trace matter, I do not believe that there can be any more than trace physicality within the Warp. Using your example there would be no fortress because there was nothing for the fortress to be made of. Also, a fortress would be absolutely useless in the Warp given the lack of the laws that govern the Materium that make a fortress useful in the first place. Fortresses being tools that serve a purpose and all.

Might I ask why conventional terrestrial plants have any kind of reflection in the Warp? There are plenty of animals I can understand. Animals have emotions. Plants do not. Emotions are a function of the nervous system. A plant cannot think, dream, emote or worship. The most that a plant is capable of is being able to sense when it is being damaged and even that isn't found in all plants. I'm totally cool with the Warp being influenced by unknown and very alien beings with much different emotions than us because they evolved in a different environment and thus need these as a survival strategy. Also, you admit that the Warp without influence from the Materium would exist and have some kind of presence. This means that the Warp itself must have substance of its own. The substance that makes the Warp must have properties of its own beyond the psycho-reactive nature. Which makes the Warp on its basest level more than simply the collective consciousness of life.

Razios
17-10-2015, 03:42
Okay, so you do believe that there is matter native to the Warp.

NOPE, I said there can be atter in the warp thanks law-breaking nature of itself, there are islands? yeah, why? because they just can be, that is why a fortress in warp is huge beyond physic, matter is just another state the war can brea or mold with little easier


Might I ask why conventional terrestrial plants have any kind of reflection in the Warp? There are plenty of animals I can understand. Animals have emotions. Plants do not. Emotions are a function of the nervous system. A plant cannot think, dream, emote or worship. The most that a plant is capable of is being able to sense when it is being damaged and even that isn't found in all plants. I'm totally cool with the Warp being influenced by unknown and very alien beings with much different emotions than us because they evolved in a different environment and thus need these as a survival strategy. Also, you admit that the Warp without influence from the Materium would exist and have some kind of presence. This means that the Warp itself must have substance of its own. The substance that makes the Warp must have properties of its own beyond the psycho-reactive nature. Which makes the Warp on its basest level more than simply the collective consciousness of life.

Because plant are life, that dosent mean there is something there with plant life...just plants have some nature in the wrap, even if minimal

And NOPE again, I said the warp can exist without life just...would be there, like a endless ocean of nothingness because there is not life to react to, that is why the way to defeat the chaos gods is....well, kill all life.

TheSaylesMan
17-10-2015, 04:12
NOPE, I said there can be matter in the warp thanks law-breaking nature of itself, there are islands? yeah, why? because they just can be, that is why a fortress in warp is huge beyond physic, matter is just another state the warp can break or mold with little easier

Thank you for clearing that up. You believe that the Warp can and will spontaneously generate matter from nothing. That is quite different from what I thought you said. When I asked if matter could be native to the Warp I was working under the framework of matter being unable to be created or destroyed. If the Warp does spontaneously generate matter due to some rules only fathomable to warp-based lifeforms, that seems like a highly disagreeable environment to those lifeforms doesn't it? There's no possible advantage to be eked out from one of them subjecting themselves to physics when they can just stay away from it. Physics with no mortals to prey on is a losing scenario for Daemons and the like. The only reason I could see things living in these 'islands' as you call them is because they were forced there. Either because they sought asylum from much more powerful beings and physics is too much of a hassle to deal with just to punish a small fry or because they were forced there to punish some kind of transgression. Regardless, subjecting themselves to rules when they could just as easily not seems like something they wouldn't want. Especially the Gods. What use is an estate to Nurgle? There's no inclement weather that walls could protect him from nor enemies that could be stopped by walls. A warp-based being would surely see more beauty in Chaos than in structure so maintaining it for aesthetics is out. I could understand a place to contain Isha in I suppose. That would make Nurgle's manse have more point than any other godly realm.


Because plant are life, that dosent mean there is something there with plant life...just plants have some nature in the wrap, even if minimal

And NOPE again, I said the warp can exist without life just...would be there, like a endless ocean of nothingness because there is not life to react to, that is why the way to defeat the chaos gods is....well, kill all life.

You can't answer my question with "just because"! Being alive doesn't automatically qualify you to register to the psycho-reactive material of the Warp. Cellular respiration isn't something that the Warp particularly cares about or else the vast bulk of the influences on it would be comprised of single-celled organisms.

And I don't understand your other point there. I too said that the Warp would exist without life. You aren't contradicting me. I don't understand how you have made the jump from no life to the Warp being empty though. Its psycho-reactive. There has to be some kind of substance that is reacting. There has to be something there. Because if there was nothing there it wouldn't exist. Which directly contradicts your claim that the Warp would exist.

ryng_sting
18-10-2015, 19:10
The Warp cannot be just a place of emotions, dreams and nightmares given form. The Warp, just like the Material universe, predates all life by several orders of magnitude. I know, I know, trying to apply causality to the Warp is a bit futile.

It is, rather.

Razios
19-10-2015, 09:48
that seems like a highly disagreeable environment to those lifeforms doesn't it?

that is why mortal tend to go insane after sepeding sometime in it, only a few like malekith have been there...it isnt pretty.


There's no possible advantage to be eked out from one of them subjecting themselves to physics when they can just stay away from it.

Its never so simple, since this realms are subject to most powerfull deamon or god at the moment, even the chaos waste the most "Neutral" place change a lot depeding of what god is the strongest at the moment.

Also consider the great game between them...yes they need mance and fortress and stuff, because deamons are always creeping out and wreacking stuff in order to prank their rivals, deamons dosent like each other that much....

TheSaylesMan
20-10-2015, 22:36
that is why mortal tend to go insane after sepeding sometime in it, only a few like malekith have been there...it isnt pretty.

I was referring to the daemons. It would be a highly disagreeable environment for the daemons. Also, what does Warhammer Fantasy Battles have to do with this? Different rules entirely. You can just walk North and end up on some outcropping of dirt jutting out into the Warp in that setting.


Its never so simple, since this realms are subject to most powerfull deamon or god at the moment, even the chaos waste the most "Neutral" place change a lot depeding of what god is the strongest at the moment.

Also consider the great game between them...yes they need mance and fortress and stuff, because deamons are always creeping out and wreacking stuff in order to prank their rivals, deamons dosent like each other that much....

No, no, no. I'm stumbling over my words here. How do I explain this. A fortress doesn't matter at all in the Great Game in the Warp. In the Materium the walls are solid, the ground is sturdy and stores of supplies are abundant. It can defend a chokepoint or a river or a harbor. It could be filled to bursting with oil for boiling and arrows to rain down on the besiegers heads. But that's the Materium! The same rules that apply there do not apply in the Warp. What use is several solid meters of stone when a Daemon could be insubstantial? Or be a thousands of years of erosion in a timeless space that renders a hole in it. Or be a note of a blaring trumpet that floats over the walls? What stops a daemon from simply flying over the walls? Its not like there is gravity in the Warp. It is not forced to walk on the conjured ground. It could just fall onto the castle from above. Even if we were to take moving in a three dimensional space into account as well as removing gravity from the equation and modeling this fortification more after a space station than a terrestrial structure, that still would not be enough to defend. Or attack for that matter.

Material places aren't of any use for the same reason that mortal weapons aren't useful. A Daemon unbound by the rules of the Materium cannot be killed by a sword. A sword kills by interrupting the delicate balance of organ systems through trauma. Precious blood exits the system or leaks into places where it obstructs other vital substances reaching their destination. You can't stab a daemon in the warp. Neither can you inflict blunt force trauma, burn, disintegrate, irradiate, electrocute and so on and so forth a Daemon. Because it isn't made of matter in the Warp. Material anythings should be useless because they were designed for an environment in with fundamentally different rules!

Razios
21-10-2015, 07:29
Actually a deamon body can be destroy in the warp: the point of chaos incursion is how much caotic energy are to sustain them before departing or transforming the world in a deamon world, is just that their esence reform again and endure the mockery of their fellow or worst, be torture by their god and destrot into notexistence.

Also you are misuing chaos here: is not random crap throw at you but ficke rules desing in eternal battle that never really ends so fortress is less a strategic point and more a place to defense for your enemy because its there and like anything in the warp it not just a simpel castle: is huge, with walls without end in sight with hundred and hundred of tropes fighting again and again, the will of the deamon made the rules and if he lose them the place just disapear and be consumed or reform.

its more understandable? yeah but GW need to show it in someway, otherwise nothing could be writen about it

bittick
21-10-2015, 18:38
Who is that Grey Knight guy who has been running around in the Warp all these years? Obviously there is something physical there.

insectum7
21-10-2015, 20:18
No, no, no. I'm stumbling over my words here. How do I explain this. A fortress doesn't matter at all in the Great Game in the Warp. In the Materium the walls are solid, the ground is sturdy and stores of supplies are abundant. It can defend a chokepoint or a river or a harbor. It could be filled to bursting with oil for boiling and arrows to rain down on the besiegers heads. But that's the Materium! The same rules that apply there do not apply in the Warp. What use is several solid meters of stone when a Daemon could be insubstantial? Or be a thousands of years of erosion in a timeless space that renders a hole in it. Or be a note of a blaring trumpet that floats over the walls? What stops a daemon from simply flying over the walls? Its not like there is gravity in the Warp. It is not forced to walk on the conjured ground. It could just fall onto the castle from above. Even if we were to take moving in a three dimensional space into account as well as removing gravity from the equation and modeling this fortification more after a space station than a terrestrial structure, that still would not be enough to defend. Or attack for that matter.

Material places aren't of any use for the same reason that mortal weapons aren't useful. A Daemon unbound by the rules of the Materium cannot be killed by a sword. A sword kills by interrupting the delicate balance of organ systems through trauma. Precious blood exits the system or leaks into places where it obstructs other vital substances reaching their destination. You can't stab a daemon in the warp. Neither can you inflict blunt force trauma, burn, disintegrate, irradiate, electrocute and so on and so forth a Daemon. Because it isn't made of matter in the Warp. Material anythings should be useless because they were designed for an environment in with fundamentally different rules!


I picture it like this:

I can play a video game and have armor and a sword and attack a fortress, but none of those things are material. But they do operate by rules, and those rules apply cause and effect, I can hit a virtual enemy with my virtual sword and slay it. The Great Game is not material, but it still has rules, thus a fortress can exist, and daemons can besiege it. I also think the Chaos Gods can bend the rules (or game system) more to their liking in realms where they have greater influence. Where they are all powerful, they just summon up whatever scenario they want to see play out, and start it up, tossing mortals, Daemons, or whatever into their massively multiplayer sandbox. Similarly, two or more gods can agree to rules beforehand, and send their forces in. They're probably arguing over the rules that define the "reality" that their minions fight over, too. Thus, worlds and realities can be constantly in a state of flux within the warp. The warp is not natively material, but can act material based on the collective wills of the powers that be.

Obviously materials can exist within the warp, a Space Marine can carry his material axe into the warp, and then back out again. Spacecraft move through the warp. Terminator armor is meant to withstand brief incursions through the warp.

Grubnar
23-10-2015, 11:49
Who is that Grey Knight guy who has been running around in the Warp all these years? Obviously there is something physical there.

I think his name is Mary Sue ... and nobody likes him.

MvS
23-10-2015, 15:25
I tend to take a bit of a Michael Moorcock view of matter and the Warp.

How awesome I am, how strong my armour is and how lethal my weapons are, are all directly related to my willpower. My faith. It's almost a Neo-meets-the-Matrix type deal. The Warp is absolute chaos but can contain anything at all, even order, rules and "the real".

But what happens when my perceptions and beliefs - perhaps that my weapons will work, that I am walking on rock towards a fortress to fight a creature that I can kill - clashes with the perceptions and beliefs of another intelligence in the Warp? Whose perception is "correct"? Whose reality is more "real"?

Again, I like to imagine that is down to the willpower of the "intelligences" in question. Man versus daemon within the Warp? Daemon wins.

Man with absolutely unshakeable faith and indomitable willpower? A man who believes without a fraction of a doubtand in the face of all logic that his "blessed" sword will smite any daemon with searing holy light...? Maybe the man.

Psykers already have a bonus in the sense that they can channel the raw "stuff" of the Warp. So even a psyker with poor willpower can weild the Warp and mess shizzle up, it's just that they might mess themselves up too. A psyker with absolute discipline and immense willpower = very powerful and dangerous being, outside of the Warp or within.

Jack of Blades
23-10-2015, 18:51
What is "willpower"? is it made up of chemicals? is it metaphysical and resides in the Warp? can you be born with different amounts of it?

MvS
23-10-2015, 20:56
is it made up of chemicals? is it metaphysical and resides in the Warp? can you be born with different amounts of it?

Yes, yes and yes.

TheSaylesMan
23-10-2015, 22:19
its more understandable? yeah but GW need to show it in someway, otherwise nothing could be writen about it

I seem to be writing about it at length. Perhaps that is actually a point in your favor though as I appear to not be convincing anyone of anything. I'm still going to argue though! Of course a Daemon's body can be destroyed in the Warp. We already know that. The problem is that a Daemon is not its body, bodies are things they wear when in the Materium and there's no reason to have a body in the Warp. In the Warp, the Daemon is nothing but its essence. Thus, it is completely impervious to anything material. So it cannot have any of those things that I listed done to them. Also, you keep on claiming that I have said that the Warp is random crap thrown at you. This is false. I never said that. The Warp is so alien to us and exists in a state our sense have not evolved to cope with so it comes across to us as gibberish. Think about it. Where exactly are the photons that make the light that we are supposedly seeing by come from in the Warp? They wouldn't. Where are the chemicals that we are tasting and smelling coming from in the Warp. Again they wouldn't. The matter in the Warp is too dispersed for us to pick up the vibrations of sound for us to hear. So how exactly do we even sense the Warp? We do not. Perhaps Psykers can because the have the organs to manipulate it. Navigators definitely do thanks to their third eye. But us humans do not sense Chaos. It pierces our souls. Forces itself upon us. Fills up our flesh with so much white noise that we cannot even process things correctly. It imposes synesthesia on us so that we taste colors and see sounds and feel sights that aren't even there.

Once again, I must reiterate that I do not care how big the castle is or how well stocked it is even more useless in the Warp than it would be here in the modern day. We could just fly over the walls and land troops in the courtyard. If it comes down to a battle of wills, why is an explosion any more difficult to envision than a castle? How do you create something that is invulnerable to attack when you are basing this thing you are imagining on real world materials and rules? Why is creating a wall somehow easier to do than realizing that material objects are all simply arrangements of atoms and reducing the thing to less than dust!?

For all those people out there who are thinking that our willpower somehow means anything to the scale of Chaos I have some bad news for you. You are a greedy little subroutine hiding behind the eyes of meat based machine. What is consciousness and what even makes it special? Why does consciousness and this willpower you extol even have a value at all? Have you forgotten sleepwalkers? People can and do so many of the things everybody else does on a daily basis when they are unconscious and without a will! Walk, open doors, drive a car, use tools, catch things, kill people. Here's a little thing I picked up from one of my favorite authors. Try to make a conscious choice. Decide to lift your hand. Too late. The electricity is either already running down your arm and your arm is lifting or it isn't. Your body is reacting a full half of a second before your self chose to because your self chooses nothing. Something else set your body in motion and sent a little summary to that man living behind your eyes that thinks itself as the person and mistakes correlation for causality. It reads the note that your body sent to it and it sees if the hand moves and thinks that one caused the other. Homo Sapiens means Wise Man and yet in our so called wisdom we don't even understand what a conscience is for. Its an evolved trait designed for us to parse reality! It is ludicrous to think that stands a chance against fundamentally UNreality. Something that could be anything from any possible set of rules from any possible permutation of the Big Bang and the laws of physics and so much more. We cannot even begin to comprehend the number of things we cannot comprehend! Thinking that believing really hard that your sword is holy can hurt that is so far from possible its hilarious. The so-called human will is a speck of dust compared to the sheer possibility of the Warp. Less than that. Billions of orders of magnitude less than that. Even less than that because even the very concept of numbers is laughable in the face of the Warp.

Whew! That was a tangent. That was my best Chaos Cultist routine, people. Hope you enjoyed yourself. Make sure to tip your waiters.

insectum7
24-10-2015, 18:27
Think about it. Where exactly are the photons that make the light that we are supposedly seeing by come from in the Warp? They wouldn't. Where are the chemicals that we are tasting and smelling coming from in the Warp. Again they wouldn't. The matter in the Warp is too dispersed for us to pick up the vibrations of sound for us to hear. So how exactly do we even sense the Warp? We do not. Perhaps Psykers can because the have the organs to manipulate it. Navigators definitely do thanks to their third eye. But us humans do not sense Chaos. It pierces our souls. Forces itself upon us. Fills up our flesh with so much white noise that we cannot even process things correctly. It imposes synesthesia on us so that we taste colors and see sounds and feel sights that aren't even there.

I don't think anyone is really saying one would experience the warp via material ways, ie. photons. But more like how we "see" during a dream (no photons) but the brain constructs something that makes the experience "real". A waking dream, or the Matrix, if you like. But whereas the Matrix was a simulation of reality to impose order, the warp makes no such pretense, and is awash in psychadelic nightmares. Like in a dream, you can hold and swing a sword. But like a nightmare, it may not work.

TheSaylesMan
25-10-2015, 05:22
I don't think anyone is really saying one would experience the warp via material ways, ie. photons. But more like how we "see" during a dream (no photons) but the brain constructs something that makes the experience "real". A waking dream, or the Matrix, if you like. But whereas the Matrix was a simulation of reality to impose order, the warp makes no such pretense, and is awash in psychadelic nightmares. Like in a dream, you can hold and swing a sword. But like a nightmare, it may not work.

You are ignoring one very large fact in all of that. Dreams are internal. They are created entirely within the mind out of our combined experiences. In the Warp, things are actually happening to you. The baseline human mind has no sensory organs to make sense of what the Warp is doing to it, so why would this dream-like state have any correlation as to what is actually happening? These would either be brief visual and audio hallucinations or my previously suggested, much more sinister theory. If what the human brain is receiving sensory information that in any way correlates to what the Warp is doing to it, the only way that could actually happen is through Chaos forcing its way onto the soul. Baseline humans also have no means of manipulating their souls so they would be entirely at the mercy of the Warp-entity. The vector by which it interacts would doubtlessly be the soul. What is the soul? The Warp reflection of the sum total of life experiences and thoughts. So how does a Daemon interact with a soul in a way that alters the perception of reality? By adding or removing to it. Like adding or deleting lines of code in a program or gene sequences in an organism. That is the only way. This demonstrates complete and utter control of the being and how helpless the mortal is.

bittick
26-10-2015, 16:29
You are ignoring one very large fact in all of that. Dreams are internal. They are created entirely within the mind out of our combined experiences. In the Warp, things are actually happening to you. The baseline human mind has no sensory organs to make sense of what the Warp is doing to it, so why would this dream-like state have any correlation as to what is actually happening? These would either be brief visual and audio hallucinations or my previously suggested, much more sinister theory. If what the human brain is receiving sensory information that in any way correlates to what the Warp is doing to it, the only way that could actually happen is through Chaos forcing its way onto the soul. Baseline humans also have no means of manipulating their souls so they would be entirely at the mercy of the Warp-entity. The vector by which it interacts would doubtlessly be the soul. What is the soul? The Warp reflection of the sum total of life experiences and thoughts. So how does a Daemon interact with a soul in a way that alters the perception of reality? By adding or removing to it. Like adding or deleting lines of code in a program or gene sequences in an organism. That is the only way. This demonstrates complete and utter control of the being and how helpless the mortal is.

You are both right, and wrong.

Every word or phrase we use to describe the Warp is simply a metaphor. It isn't actually "a sea of energy" or "a dream world". It's a parallel universe with different laws of reality. Our laws are not its laws. Causality, time, distance, those things don't have to exist in the Warp. Any person who thinks they understand it are only fooling themselves. You can come up with the best explanation ever, and it may sound great, but it doesn't mean you're right.

If a character from the material universe were to be sucked into the Warp, he might see any of a thousand things. Perhaps he just ceases to exist, his matter not supported by the strange energies of that dimension. Or he could find himself in a vast fantasy landscape, like a Roger Dean painting.

221754

Or he could be in a hell dimension. Literally anything is possible. He could be in a cartoon, 2 dimensional and everything, looking up off the "paper" and seeing people walking by.

The Warp responds to sentient beings' thoughts and emotions. It also responds to physical forces. A supernova in the material world can bleed over and cause effects in the Warp. Causality doesn't exist in the same way there, so something that happens in the future can happen "now" in the Warp. The Warp gods and demons are just swirling masses of energy and emotion, but they are also sentient beings with thoughts and plans, in part because humans imagine them that way. A demon is just a ripple of energy in its native environment, but it can also exist physically there too. If the whims of the Warp will it to be so, the demon can exist physically and can be killed, even in its native plane. Now maybe it can come back to "life" later, and maybe it can't.

The Warp is contradictory. This was the intent when they wrote it. If you think "that doesn't make any sense", then you got it. It isn't supposed to make sense because it is "beyond human comprehension". The thing to remember about the Warp is this -- people in the universe get screwed over when they think they understand exactly how it works. That was Magnus' problem. He thought he knew how it worked, and he didn't. If you go in thinking it's just a sea of energy for you to exploit, and that demons and gods are figments of people's imaginations (like seeing mythological creatures in constellations), then you're going to be real surprised when the Warp storm known as "Tzeentch" looks you in the eyes and talks to you. For all intents and purposes, he's alive and exists physically within the Warp.

You can see things with your regular human eyes there, sometimes. You could live on a planet in the Warp. You could have children, you could grow old and die and then your soul goes somewhere else in the Warp. It can be a mirror of reality, or it can be absolute nothingness. The environment might respond to your thoughts or it might not. You might be a slave to the whims of some demon. You can walk for a thousand miles along the sandy shore of a purple sea, under a blood red sky with black stars, and when you reach the end, you go through a portal to the material world and you've crossed half the galaxy. Every weird 70s album cover that you've ever seen can take place there. It's a dream and a nightmare and an empty void all at once.

TheSaylesMan
27-10-2015, 22:25
You are both right, and wrong.(snip)

You are saying a lot of things that I agree with and have even said before but as soon as you bring humans into the mix you completely contradict yourself. Yes, the Warp can and does contradict itself from our point of view. You are taking a seemingly limitless system like the Warp and when you add an incredibly limited system like a human, you make the limitless system accommodate the limited system instead of the limited system being broken by the limitless one. Eyes for example and incredibly rigid. They work one particular way. You will never be able to see a thing in the Warp because our eyes require photons! Whatever is in the Warp could mimic a photon perfectly but at the same time it is an incalculable number of other things. Our eyes being unable to work under the conditions of Warp space is not a limitation of the Warp but a limitation on eyes! I am not imposing any limits on the Warp. You are the one doing that. A red sky with black stars is a limitation. A purple sea is a limitation. Ground in and of itself is a limitation. Going a distance, any distance at all, is a limitation. For that matter, thinking that the Chaos Gods need to be conscious in order to be intelligent is a limitation.

On a side note, if it takes the "whims of the Warp" for physicality to slay things native to it than it isn't the physical things that are doing the slaying. A Daemon is in essence invulnerable to anything material so long as some other being intervenes.

Razios
29-10-2015, 21:56
you make the limitless system accommodate the limited system instead of the limited system being broken by the limitless one.

Oh they are broken....just it takes time becuase they see thing who by all right should be a big NOPE right there like gigang fortress in terraint who dosent belong, living garden, forest cover in golden eyes and all the good jazz since warp put things for not reason a all, many dont last long in the warp without cracking


On a side note, if it takes the "whims of the Warp" for physicality to slay things native to it than it isn't the physical things that are doing the slaying. A Daemon is in essence invulnerable to anything material so long as some other being intervenes.

Who said to slay? they just return with their master and depending of their faliure they are torture into not-existence, the gods rarely forgive faliure