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lordreaven448
02-10-2015, 06:17
So with AoS being......well lets just ignore it in this thread, and with 8th edition going the way of the dodo (sorry Bretonnian players). A thought came across my mind. WFB has always been about large fantasy battles, and with GW wanting to make the game larger to sell more minis (despite scale) I started to think about ways to play it in different scales.

So, has anyone tried WFB in 6mm with changes made to suit the scale or has anyone tried any fantasy based game that is generic enough to be "counts as WFB" in 6mm?

If so what do you think of it?

Also, would a scale of said size interest you into a rule set as such? I heard over at TMP while looking into this that KoW plays well with a few minor changes in 6mm.

Aezeal
02-10-2015, 06:28
I would not be interested in 6 mm mini's tbh. I like the details on 28 mm models. I also think playing with a 100 models in 8th or AoS is enough since those games take me 3 hours already.

Whitesun
02-10-2015, 06:38
Warmaster?

zoggin-eck
02-10-2015, 07:25
I'd stick with Warmaster, Mayhem, Mighty Armies, Hordes of the Things etc. for 6mm. Measuring, removing models (or recording casualties) and re-writing the rules to suit the scale would be pretty fiddly.

However, I'd love to try WHFB in 15mm, just halving all the distances or using centimeters. There are a few people online you'll find, perhaps the best being this example:

http://hetairoiwargames.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Warhammer%2015mm

I tired the same thing, also using the brilliant 15mm Demonworld miniatures (now from Ral Partha Europe), but on normal sized bases. Halving the bases seems a bit hard to fit some models. If I did it properly, perhaps I'd make up a set of base sizes to suit.

Speaking of 6mm, when Microworld release their 6mm Empire/Renaissance range, I'll have to decide on a game just to use them :)

http://ttfix.blogspot.com.au/2015/09/microworld-games-6mm-renaissance.html

Herzlos
02-10-2015, 08:10
I'm moving to playing mass fantasy it in 15mm, as it's a compromise of detail and size. I'll probably use KoW for the mechanics though, or the Hail Caesar fantasy game. No reason you can't use 6mm (or 3, 10, 12, 20, or whatever)

Cheeslord
02-10-2015, 08:32
Could you adapt some of the various Epic rules for fantasy? Just needs new army lists and some kind of magic mechanic (or count them as psykers)? I know the Epic Chaos sprue has a fair few models on that will work in fantasy (beastmen, minotaurs, trolls, various daemons) ... not sure where you could get other 6mm armies from though...

Mark.

Herzlos
02-10-2015, 08:45
You'd probably be much quicker to just use WHFB as is (or use cm instead of inches), then your missile ranges will seem a bit more realistic as your archers can fire more than 24 times their own height (~150ft).

All you'd need to do was add wound counters

Griefbringer
02-10-2015, 11:04
One way to play WHFB with 6 mm figures would be to keep the rules as they are, but mounting multiple models per base. Say 6-9 infantry models for a 20 x 20 mm base. And when the rules require removing a casualty, pick out the whole base.

On some bases you might want to mix different types of models, but count them as one. For example:
- Standard bearer base might contain 3 standard bearers accompanied by a number of colour guards.
- Musician base might feature a small marching band with a drum major and a couple of guards.
- Champion base might feature couple of champions with their retinues.
- Character base might feature hte big honcho with his retainers, servants, heralds, halflings cooks etc.
- Wizard base might feature a mini-diorama of the spellcaster preparing for some mighty feat of arcane lore.
- Monster base might feature either a very big monster, or a bunch of smaller monsters.

Samsonov
02-10-2015, 11:40
My approach in 3mm is mount a unit (in this case 80 men) on a 40mm by 20mm base. I then take that base as being equivalent of ten 20cm bases, two rows of five. Converting inches to centimeters, five bases takes up 4cm and two bases deep takes up 1.6cm, so the footprint is almost equivalent. I then use markers to record the first 9 casualties on each base and then remove an entire base on the 10th casualty. You could probably do the same with 6mm (indeed, my 3mm Magister Militum Romans will be fighting my 6mm Microworld Beastkin).

EagleWarrior
02-10-2015, 11:42
I not only would but am totally planning to build some warhammer fantasy armies in 6mm. I enjoy the model focus of 28mm, but also enjoy the army focus of 6mm, and have a bunch of armies in both the Warhammers as well as in Epic. I have some stuff in 10mm and 15mm but personally prefer 6mm for 'small' stuff as it lets you have the really big armies.

The only reason I haven't done it already is lack of plastic (or resin) fantasy or historical models in this scale. I dislike metal and when a lot of them would have to be converted to be more Warhammer, it pushes it that bit too far. If and when someone does make some non metal 6mm miniatures that can be used for a Warhammer game, I will totally buy them.


Could you adapt some of the various Epic rules for fantasy? Just needs new army lists and some kind of magic mechanic (or count them as psykers)?

I think I wouldn't use Epic, at least not with Epic Armageddon. The rules are all structured around fluid motion, heavy reliance on shooting and fast and decisive combats. I see historical and fantasy type battlefields as being much more about lines, positions and complex manoeuvres. I'd be happy with Warmaster or even modified Warhammer, and there are decent number of other game systems out there for large armies on small scale. :)

EagleWarrior
02-10-2015, 12:20
One way to play WHFB with 6 mm figures would be to keep the rules as they are, but mounting multiple models per base. Say 6-9 infantry models for a 20 x 20 mm base. And when the rules require removing a casualty, pick out the whole base.

On some bases you might want to mix different types of models, but count them as one. For example:
- Standard bearer base might contain 3 standard bearers accompanied by a number of colour guards.
- Musician base might feature a small marching band with a drum major and a couple of guards.
- Champion base might feature couple of champions with their retinues.
- Character base might feature hte big honcho with his retainers, servants, heralds, halflings cooks etc.
- Wizard base might feature a mini-diorama of the spellcaster preparing for some mighty feat of arcane lore.
- Monster base might feature either a very big monster, or a bunch of smaller monsters.

I know some people who already consider Warhammer to be representing something like this. Certainly in historical warfare you would have never seen one cannon, five housemen and twenty spearsmen hanging out together unless someone really messed up.

Griefbringer
02-10-2015, 12:41
I know some people who already consider Warhammer to be representing something like this.

Well, I certainly do. If you check the 3rd edition rulebook, it actually states that the ground scale is 1" : 10 yards or 1:360, which is actually pretty close to 6 mm (usually considered as being roughly 1:300 scale, heightwise).

Thus, one orc base (25 x 25 mm) is unlikely to represent just a single orc, but actually a 10 x 10 yards area of big, angry greenskins.

Herzlos
02-10-2015, 12:46
I thought the Warhammer books implied it was a scale of 1 mini : 1 character?

I agree about historics though; it's generally assumed to be a representation of at least 1:10, so those 20 spearmen are more likely to be representing a unit of 200 spearmen.

EagleWarrior
02-10-2015, 13:29
I thought the Warhammer books implied it was a scale of 1 mini : 1 character?

I agree about historics though; it's generally assumed to be a representation of at least 1:10, so those 20 spearmen are more likely to be representing a unit of 200 spearmen.

The books do tend to imply this, but I'd say the other approach is still totally valid. I wouldn't have a problem with an opponent going either way if they wanted to.

I had an idea of using 2mm models with Epic rules, with a whole platoon to a base. The number of guys on an Epic battlefield (typically a few hundred to a thousand in a really big game) doesn't even come close to the massive battles we see on the box art or even modern battles. 2mm doesn't really cut it either, but comes a bit closer. The plan was to use them against other people's normal epic armies and just say that the real battle was way bigger.

6mm guys on 20 and 25mm bases could play against a normal Warhammer army like this in principle, using normal Warhammer rules. It might look a bit silly though. :p

Samsonov
02-10-2015, 13:42
I had an idea of using 2mm models with Epic rules, with a whole platoon to a base. The number of guys on an Epic battlefield (typically a few hundred to a thousand in a really big game) doesn't even come close to the massive battles we see on the box art or even modern battles. 2mm doesn't really cut it either, but comes a bit closer. The plan was to use them against other people's normal epic armies and just say that the real battle was way bigger.You may find these interesting: http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=30259 http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=30296

Lars Porsenna
02-10-2015, 13:48
Thus, one orc base (25 x 25 mm) is unlikely to represent just a single orc, but actually a 10 x 10 yards area of big, angry greenskins.

IIRC someone playing WAB once determined that figure scale is around 1/15 or 1/20 by basing the frontage of Roman Legionaries on the ground scale. Works for me, and in my headspace I use a 1/20 scale. Thus my High Elf army of 75 figures actually represents a force of 1500 troops, and my Night Goblin army of 135 figures represents a force of 2700, making WHFB a mid-size mass combat game. The only let-down is that the rank bonus mechanics tend to encourage unrealistically deep formations. IIRC WAB 2.0 dealt with this by limiting the rank bonus to 2+ rather than 3+...

Damon.

Damon.

EagleWarrior
02-10-2015, 14:01
You may find these interesting: http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=30259 http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=30296

Very nice :D

orry
02-10-2015, 16:27
I have been doing Kings of War in 1/72 for the troops and 28mm for monsters..I find that scale the best for massed battles. Big enough to see the details. but small (and cheap) enough to do mass battles. Check oiut the thread

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?405317-Kings-of-War-LOTR-1-72

Vos
02-10-2015, 17:42
I own tons of Warmaster figures and play a lot of 10mm fantasy.
You could try it using WHFB figures by doing some re-basing (blu tac and try out before gluing!)

Most Warmaster bases are 40mm frontage by 20mm depth so you could base 2 Warhammer figures side by side and call it a 'stand' and have 3 stands as a unit.
Or you could scale up e.g. double the base sizes? I'd play around with it....

By the way I'd definitely go 10mm instead of 6mm - lots more figure ranges and you get some really nice detail in 10mm.

Vos

rmeister0
02-10-2015, 17:53
I own tons of Warmaster figures and play a lot of 10mm fantasy.
You could try it using WHFB figures by doing some re-basing (blu tac and try out before gluing!)

Most Warmaster bases are 40mm frontage by 20mm depth so you could base 2 Warhammer figures side by side and call it a 'stand' and have 3 stands as a unit.
Or you could scale up e.g. double the base sizes? I'd play around with it....

By the way I'd definitely go 10mm instead of 6mm - lots more figure ranges and you get some really nice detail in 10mm.

Vos

I woud love to do this today with plastic instead of metal. The Warmaster HE Spearmen were awfully delicate. But the 10mm Warmaster models were dead easy to paint.

Pojko
02-10-2015, 18:14
6 mm... I hate the idea. At that size what's the point in even buying models when there's barely any detail to see at all? Might as well just cut up cardboard in squares and rectangles, color them a bit and play on a table with that.

Commissar Vaughn
02-10-2015, 20:35
I know some people who already consider Warhammer to be representing something like this. Certainly in historical warfare you would have never seen one cannon, five housemen and twenty spearsmen hanging out together unless someone really messed up.


Indeed- in the 5th ed battle book (and other places too IIRC) Rick Priestly says just that.

Col. Tartleton
02-10-2015, 21:44
Yeah I think its usually standard to do 1:20 for 25-30mm models for smaller operations (medieval to early modern). Then the ratio increases to like 1:10 or less for 15mm. You wouldn't do 1:1 above like 6mm. That'll work for a brigade or so, but if you're trying to do armies like major Napoleonic or Ancient battles you're still going to be doing like 1:10 or 1:20 in 6mm.

I mean a medieval army could easily be like 10,000 men. That's still 500 28mm figures at 1:20. Which is probably a decent equivalent to what we would be bringing. 5 knights or 10 infantry represents a company, etc.

Flames of War is 1:1 and you're only talking a couple companies in a big game.

TheLionReturns
02-10-2015, 22:34
I am planning to move my 8th edition gaming into 15mm. There is plenty of suitable 15mm stuff out there and it works out not only substantially cheaper but also allows me to play on a smaller table. The only issue I am yet to resolve is that of basing. Perhaps the easiest would be to put 4 models per base and rework the casualty and rank bonus rules in some way. I am not sure which direction I will go yet though.

Geep
03-10-2015, 00:37
6 mm... I hate the idea. At that size what's the point in even buying models when there's barely any detail to see at all? Might as well just cut up cardboard in squares and rectangles, color them a bit and play on a table with that.
You'd be surprised at how good 6mm can be for detail. GW itself did some excellent work with its Epic miniatures (and some terrible work, but overall I'd give the range a thumbs up).

Before Warmaster was released GW played around with 6mm Fantasy sculpts (unreleased). You can occasionally find them on eBay- mostly Bretonnians (kind of oddly, given how late the Brets were as a 10mm release). I've never had the models myself, but from photos I've seen they look great.

I recommend Warmaster as a game. There's plenty of 10mm sculptors out there, some of whom are at least equal to GW's old sculpts, assuming you don't want to just pick up one of the primary 6 armies off eBay (they're relatively cheap). It's a very different game than most others- manoeuvre is everything, and the unreliability of movement is tricky to get used to.

Svetgar
03-10-2015, 17:21
I regret not getting more into Warmaster. I picked up the book but that's about it. The minis seem way to expensive on fleabay these days.

jimmyzimms
03-10-2015, 20:17
6 mm... I hate the idea. At that size what's the point in even buying models when there's barely any detail to see at all? Might as well just cut up cardboard in squares and rectangles, color them a bit and play on a table with that.

you might want to take a look at something like this before you dismiss 6mm out of hand. It might not be FOR YOU, but it's fully capable of modeling detail.
http://miniwars.co.uk/mini360/details/2649

Geep
04-10-2015, 01:15
I regret not getting more into Warmaster. I picked up the book but that's about it. The minis seem way to expensive on fleabay these days.
Fortunately the main 6 armies (Chaos, Orcs and Goblins, Undead, High Elves, Dwarfs and Empire) are all relatively common, and can usually be found at a good price.

Even better though, is that there are plenty of other (http://www.polarfox.info/Ironside_Orcs/p2627799_13080630.aspx) excellent (http://www.warmonger-miniatures.com/) alternatives (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_100_101&products_id=12980) (some sculpted by the same sculptors who did the original ranges).
(Please note that I've often linked to specific models there- some of those ranges are very large, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I also recommend looking at Copplestone Castings, and just generally Googling 10mm Fantasy)

Kyriakin
04-10-2015, 05:47
The expansion WM armies are crazy rare though.

The ebay prices for, say, DE compared to HE are staggering.

Geep
04-10-2015, 08:37
Definitely. I have collected almost all Warmaster armies (2000+ pts each), going only with GW originals, and it has taken me years (both for affordability and actually finding them for sale)!

That said, there are always cheaper ways to gain the models- either through making connections, or looking at alternative manufacturers. See the lizard-people sculpts in my post above- linked from the word 'alternatives'. Usually Lizardmen cost a small fortune, but those Eureka sculpts are great and go very well with the rest of the Warmaster range (I picked some up to be characters in my otherwise-GW-model army).

I recommend anyone interested in small-scale Fantasy check out the Specialist Arms forum (an easy find on Google).

EagleWarrior
04-10-2015, 10:22
The old 6mm models sound intriguing. Anyone have a link or something for where I can find them?

jimmyzimms
04-10-2015, 13:24
The old 6mm models sound intriguing. Anyone have a link or something for where I can find them?
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Epic_Scale_Fantasy_-_Unreleased

there you go, chap

memitchell747
04-10-2015, 15:40
6 mm... I hate the idea. At that size what's the point in even buying models when there's barely any detail to see at all? Might as well just cut up cardboard in squares and rectangles, color them a bit and play on a table with that.

I have a couple of WarMaster armies (O&G and Undead). You'd be surprised at the detail. Fun and easy to paint, too. The game is OK. It's much more abstract than WFB, and very Command and Control driven. Cavalry is too powerful. But, it's fun. I would not consider it as a replacement for WFB. It didn't catch on like Epic because it required RnF units instead of Epic's squads and platoons. So, a WM army was still concentrated on the table, and did not convey a massive army like Napoleonic 6mm, unless you had crazy big armies. And, maneuver was still confined, instead of sweeping across the battlefield. It would be a good start for downscaling WFB, though.

EagleWarrior
04-10-2015, 18:41
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Epic_Scale_Fantasy_-_Unreleased

there you go, chap

Thanks. :)

Geep
05-10-2015, 00:12
It didn't catch on like Epic because it required RnF units instead of Epic's squads and platoons. So, a WM army was still concentrated on the table, and did not convey a massive army like Napoleonic 6mm, unless you had crazy big armies.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Epic has been around for 4 editions now, so it's no surprise it has a higher following. Warmaster never saw an official 2nd edition, though it can be argued that that is, in effect, what the Ancients rules were. Epic also has plastic models- the only plastic Warmaster models were those in the 'Battle of Five Armies' box- which I'm sure many people never even knew existed. There was next-to-no advertising, even within GW sources. A Warmaster army has far more models to paint than an Epic army, which puts some people off.

Cavalry can have issues- the usual counter is to have more terrain than people are used to playing with. The Ancients rules also helped here.

I won't rant further on Warmaster than this. It's a game I like, it has some great models, it's its own game- nothing like Warhammer or Epic, and takes quite a bit of getting used to.

Litcheur
05-10-2015, 11:37
6 mm... I hate the idea. At that size what's the point in even buying models when there's barely any detail to see at all?

I beg to differ.


220964 220965 220966 220967

Sure, it's smaller than 28mm minis. But it's still detailed, and quite interesting to paint.

memitchell747
05-10-2015, 15:01
It's a bit more complicated than that. Epic has been around for 4 editions now, so it's no surprise it has a higher following. Warmaster never saw an official 2nd edition, though it can be argued that that is, in effect, what the Ancients rules were. Epic also has plastic models- the only plastic Warmaster models were those in the 'Battle of Five Armies' box- which I'm sure many people never even knew existed. There was next-to-no advertising, even within GW sources. A Warmaster army has far more models to paint than an Epic army, which puts some people off.

Cavalry can have issues- the usual counter is to have more terrain than people are used to playing with. The Ancients rules also helped here.

I won't rant further on Warmaster than this. It's a game I like, it has some great models, it's its own game- nothing like Warhammer or Epic, and takes quite a bit of getting used to.
That's a great recap. I wasn't dissing Warmaster. Just pointing out it doesn't quite capture the feel of larger formations and battles using a smaller scale, than does Epic. Partly because WFB represented bigger battles than 40K does (which represents a smaller skirmish in a larger battle). And, partly because Warmaster emphasized command and control instead of massive battles. If you read between the lines, it tries to simulate a commander's real world battlefield considerations much more than WFB. With a healthy dose of command and control chaos, which many GW players simply do not enjoy. Not just O&G, but every army has command issues. Which means Warmaster goes in a different direction, instead of being 6mm WFB. I like Warmaster. I don't love it.

jirgaS
05-10-2015, 15:06
On the subject of warmaster. There's 'official' armylists for fantasy armies in hail cesar. Which is kind of warmaster 2.

EagleWarrior
05-10-2015, 17:03
Geep and Memitchell make good points. I think there was also that Epic fist launched during the 'glory days' of what later came to be called specialist games, when GW was pushing a lot for variation and it picked up a large following. Warmaster came along when GW's enthusiasm for game variety was already staring to waine and it never got the advertising, plastic models, multiple rule sets etc that Epic enjoyed.

Personally I loved the idea at the time, and bought some of the models. I just couldn't face building an entire army from metal and so let it drop.

I'd love to give it, or 6mm fantasy, another shot though.

Niall78
05-10-2015, 17:14
Microworldgames have a whole selection of 6mm fantasy miniatures that look pretty good.

http://www.microworldgames.com/collections/6mm-fantasy

EagleWarrior
05-10-2015, 17:36
Yeah, they're very nice. Sadly they are still metal.