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View Full Version : It was only a matter of time, China cast warlord titan.



O.G-Palmer
12-10-2015, 18:55
I thought id make this post as more of a warning to those looking into getting a warlord titan, before I had picked up my warlord I was approached by a fellow gamer who also purchased one of these large beastie's. He insisted that he could get hold of one from China at a fraction of the cost. At first, I didn't believe one was being produced so soon after forge world had released one as it must be a mammoth task to copy one of these. He then revealed that the very one I had looked at before, was in fact a China copy, irritating to say the least. The worrying factor was that the quality was defiantly there, however certain tell tail signs where also evident such as odd looking casting gates as well as softer detail casting on areas not really immediately visible to the eye.

So like with all forge world products for sale on ebay, please please do be careful. Some are listed as genuine when they are no, If you have doubt about something then leave it.


Maybe we should have a pinned thread dedicated to examples of known fake Forge world products for others to read through and hopefully save them from bad purchases.

Your thoughts?

And yes, I bought from Forge world :)

strider17
12-10-2015, 20:43
I've bought many items recast from China and have been extremely pleased with the quality. Not because I want to keep the business from FW but because I can't afford their price and shipping from China has been free as well. I haven't had a bad cast yet. Maybe not what you all want to be hearing but that has been my experience. In fact several items I bought FW had more issues than those bought from China. I've had fewer warped parts from China. Now I've never had a bad part but I hear that it is difficult to get them from China if you do. Caveat emptor as with anything.


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Vulgarsty
12-10-2015, 21:22
I wonder whether my sgt centurious is a fake. I don't expect GW would cast me up a nice shiny legit one though if I sent it to them despite their requests to inform them of such things, probably do a rolex and send you the ground up bits.

blackcherry
14-10-2015, 11:15
Thank you for the heads up O.G-Palmer. Good to know that it's happening so we can avoid dodgy copies.

Though to be honest, if someone approached me about knockoff FW or GW products, I would be wary of purchasing it anyway :p

Niall78
14-10-2015, 13:14
Your thoughts?


Doesn't it destroy a lot of the second-hand value in originals? You effectively can't buy these off the internet any more unless from the official provider. The chance of a fake is now quite high and buying blind you have no chance of spotting a fake.

HelloKitty
14-10-2015, 13:50
Often times most people can't tell a fake if they are handed the real thing and a fake and can examine them. The fake casts can be pretty authentic.

daemonkin
14-10-2015, 14:15
Never realised it's an offence to send back counterfeit goods to the seller as part of the refund policy (in the UK at least)

D.

Herzlos
14-10-2015, 14:49
How does that work? Do they have to be destroyed?

daemonkin
14-10-2015, 15:04
Not too sure about that to be honest. Found it out watching a TV show where someone bought a counterfeit blender (NutriBullet I think) but was told that to gte a refund he would have to send it back. He contacted Trading Standards instead who advised him not to send it back.

D.

NCO
14-10-2015, 22:59
Playing the devil's advocate here

This is more about buying the brand not the product.
If a person is out to buy a Warlord Titan then shouldn't the cheaper one (with lower quality) be as attractive as the expensive one with higher quality?
This is like only using genuine complete serial AKM made in Russia and shunning all other clones.

That being said this is getting out of hand but no body got the guts to tell China to police their house.
Best chance we have for China to crack down on piracy is if there is a Chinese brand name being pirated elsewhere.

Scribe of Khorne
15-10-2015, 04:51
I've always supported FW, even though several in my group have tons of China cheap ****, if money was a concern I wouldnt have played HH at all. If they hadnt pulled AoS out of .... I would have bought a Warlord from FW, I was already lining up the funds from my hobby budget.

As it is, I havent bought ****. I cannot wait to see the finance numbers...

aprilmanha
15-10-2015, 08:38
Since FW use cheap and nasty Resin for their models, I don't really see why a better quality model from elsewhere would cost less... if anything the Chinese need to be charging more for their recasts!

Hellebore
15-10-2015, 11:26
Playing the devil's advocate here

This is more about buying the brand not the product.
If a person is out to buy a Warlord Titan then shouldn't the cheaper one (with lower quality) be as attractive as the expensive one with higher quality?
This is like only using genuine complete serial AKM made in Russia and shunning all other clones.

That being said this is getting out of hand but no body got the guts to tell China to police their house.
Best chance we have for China to crack down on piracy is if there is a Chinese brand name being pirated elsewhere.

Because, unlike most other complaints by GW fans, this IS actual copyright violation. It's a direct copy of a GW original work.

If china sculpted their own and sold it that would be different. But a direct copy is, by its very nature, a violation of copyright.

Niall78
15-10-2015, 12:44
Because, unlike most other complaints by GW fans, this IS actual copyright violation. It's a direct copy of a GW original work.

If china sculpted their own and sold it that would be different. But a direct copy is, by its very nature, a violation of copyright.

GW holds the copyright to giant robots? Even if the knockoff has small differences in detail GWs so called copyright is unenforceable.

Ironpit
15-10-2015, 13:07
They have the Copyright for some special kinds of Giant Robots. Its like nobody has a Copyright for all cars, but you can Copyright special kinds of cars like Mercedes or GM cars.

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BFalcon
16-10-2015, 10:07
GW holds the copyright to giant robots? Even if the knockoff has small differences in detail GWs so called copyright is unenforceable.

If they're making recasts of GW products, even if there are small differences, but some pieces are exactly the same (or look like they've been made from the original pieces, but with bits added on) I think they'd have a copyright case here in the UK. If, on the other hand, they'd made their own masters and made moulds from those (and the dimensions were slightly different and/or different tool marks), they'd be making imitation pieces, so would probably get away with it (pending any meddling kids... sorry, couldn't resist). :)

Mind you, GW couldn't exactly complain about the names - "Warlord" isn't exactly original, nor is "Warhound", come to that. I'm surprised we've not seen those renamed too.

daemonkin
16-10-2015, 10:09
A caster friend with their own miniature company said that if you change 5 details on a model then copyright no longer exists on that model.

D.

NCO
16-10-2015, 10:31
Would that be 5 details on each casted part?
I can see China doing that, it's a small price to pay to cash in to whatever is popular.

daemonkin
16-10-2015, 11:02
Not too sure of the details or requirements. Could see it applying to the model as a whole though. Again, this is only UK law AFAIK

D.

narradisall
16-10-2015, 11:40
China don't care about copywrite laws really anyway. What are the cost comparisons between the Chinese knockoffs and the real thing? I'm not interested in buying I'm just curious if they try to sell them much cheaper or whether they aim for a little cheaper to rip unaware consumers off.

Senbei
16-10-2015, 12:01
I wonder whether my sgt centurious is a fake. I don't expect GW would cast me up a nice shiny legit one though if I sent it to them despite their requests to inform them of such things, probably do a rolex and send you the ground up bits.


Is it cast in hard pewter? If so, it's probably real. Most modern re-casts are in resin (the Chinese re-casters don't care much for pretending it's the 'real-deal'), and before that most seemed to use lead alloy. Another clue would be double-mouldlines.

He's not that rare, or -THAT- expensive, unless you find on in a blister.


China don't care about copywrite laws really anyway. What are the cost comparisons between the Chinese knockoffs and the real thing? I'm not interested in buying I'm just curious if they try to sell them much cheaper or whether they aim for a little cheaper to rip unaware consumers off.


A SoB squad from GW is about 50. From China it's about.... 6. SoB are an easy re-cast though. Most other items will cost more but still be significantly cheaper than GW... and of a lower quality, especially if the kit has large or complicated pieces.

I've never bought from a Chinese recaster and can't recomend it (simply through not having had the experience).


A caster friend with their own miniature company said that if you change 5 details on a model then copyright no longer exists on that model.

D.


Since you need a sculptors permission to use a 'dolly' or weapon of theirs on your own sculpts, I suspect that they're incorrect.

Hellebore
16-10-2015, 13:10
GW holds the copyright to giant robots? Even if the knockoff has small differences in detail GWs so called copyright is unenforceable.

There is a point at which using components of other things to create an original work is fine.

But casting an entire model with superficial differences isn't one of them. I might as well scratch a model and cast a new one to say it's unique.

If they have cast an actual GW model, then it is COPY right infringement - ie China is not licensed to make COPIES - they aren't allowed to make duplicates of preexisting GW models.

Stuff like Chapterhouse studios was entirely different - original material that GW bitched about because they had a similar aesthetic. Actually copying actual GW models however, is actually copyright infringement (seems i need the actual emphasis here to get the point across).

China doesn't care of course, but that doesn't change the facts.

NCO
16-10-2015, 15:00
Another angle on this is, even GW wouldn't touch China.

I wonder if there are copies of x-wing miniatures around?
I've bought a few bags that are Chinese copies and they were hit and miss but 80% of them will be more than worth the cost.
Makes me wonder if Chinese are undercutting, original manufacturers are overpricing, or my sense of value for money is skewed because of the average price.

Bloodknight
16-10-2015, 17:08
Another clue would be double-mouldlines.

Sadly, you often get those on original models, too. They're not a reliable indicator. Neither is the material. That said, Centurius is, IIRC, from the pre-white-metal era (I believe so, mine looks like there's a lot of lead in the alloy and I never opened the blister), so if the model is still shiny and bright after 20 years, there's probably something fishy about it. Lead alloy minis go dull and grey with time.

BFalcon
16-10-2015, 19:42
Sadly, you often get those on original models, too. They're not a reliable indicator. Neither is the material. That said, Centurius is, IIRC, from the pre-white-metal era (I believe so, mine looks like there's a lot of lead in the alloy and I never opened the blister), so if the model is still shiny and bright after 20 years, there's probably something fishy about it. Lead alloy minis go dull and grey with time.

Even then it might be a stripped mini - those are still shiny if they've been stripped in the past few years... I've got some and I know they're original since I bought them in a store myself, so... :)

But yeah, you do need to be SO careful... :(

2DSick
17-10-2015, 19:11
well I got a FW vendetta conversion kit off ebay. Seemed legit, was like a green resin?... sent it to GW, along with all of the transaction details and buyer information. Thw FW team sent me a thankyou letter and the real deal.

Bloodknight
17-10-2015, 19:16
Yeah, but you can't get a Sgt. Centurius today. Even if the mould still exists, it would be terrible if they cast up new ones, given that that guy is one of the rarest collector's pieces and used to change hands for silly money.

Whitesun
18-10-2015, 08:48
You could get most stuff from the China recasters. There are a lot of them doing brisk business on TaoBao, as it's pretty much unpoliced, and GW have no idea how to enforce it over there since the CN government aren't really enforcing it either.

I have seen several of the copies, and my personal opinion is that if you are going to spend time painting up the model, it's not really worth the effort to get these recasts, unless it's for models that are no longer available.

Quality is not as good as the original, with the recasts having some odd mouldlines, or poor detail. The material used is often suspect, the resin equivalent is brittle and snaps, while I'm not sure what are in the metal copies. If you must, get the metals, though detailing is poor.

I really can't recommend it, it's not that much cheaper. The more popular the model is, the closer to GW prices they trend. These guys are after you money after all, and they don't exist as some fan service or hobbyist service.

You do, however, sometimes get genuine plastics at a fraction. I remember buying sprues of IOB plastics for a fraction, not sure why they were so cheap though (3 dollars a sprue of 5 Seaguard or something). Also picked up the hard back Tomb Kings and Empire army book for about 10 dollars each.

lbecks
18-10-2015, 18:50
I've seen recasts run the gamut. From really great resin versions of metal models to dodgy quality with a lot of unfilled areas. One thing about GW metal was its hardness. A lot of recasted minis in metal tend to be softer. And probably poisonous.

Senbei
18-10-2015, 22:13
Yeah, but you can't get a Sgt. Centurius today. Even if the mould still exists, it would be terrible if they cast up new ones, given that that guy is one of the rarest collector's pieces and used to change hands for silly money.

Ehh... he's never been -THAT- rare. There are 10 on e-bay at the moment with the lowest BiN price being about 28. Now, if you were after a 40k Dominator.... There are only two (actually the most I've ever seen for sale at one time), from the same seller, and they're auctions. Proto-tyranids? None at the moment. The REALLY rare stuff rarely turns up... Centurius is.... uncommon.

TonyFlow
19-10-2015, 06:29
Actually, it is hard to find much counterfeit stuff on Taobao anymore. Taobao is, in fact, heavily policing their platform. Of course you can upload fake products, but you can't use any useful keywords to identify them. I look from time to time, and a few years ago it was possible to get almost any GW model copied on Taobao, but ever since Taobao has started policing, counterfeit products are pretty hard to find.
Price-wise, they are MUCH cheaper than GW. I have never gotten any, so I don't know about quality.

Bloodknight
19-10-2015, 07:21
There are 10 on e-bay at the moment with the lowest BiN price being about 28.

I wouldn't buy any that are not still in the blister. Those used to fetch 100 Euro easily.

Senbei
19-10-2015, 09:36
I wouldn't buy any that are not still in the blister. Those used to fetch 100 Euro easily.

Well, there's your problem for you. Sellers love to gouge for them blisters. I did get a Games Day Nob in blister for about 12, bit it's not usually worth it as you'll pay up to (or over) 300% more just for some plastic and the cardboard backer.

Edit: The best one was probably the GD Kroot Shaper NIB, that I managed to get for 3 because they'd tagged t wrong. I've never had any interest in Tau...

The_Real_Chris
19-10-2015, 09:58
Another angle on this is, even GW wouldn't touch China.

I wonder if there are copies of x-wing miniatures around?
I've bought a few bags that are Chinese copies and they were hit and miss but 80% of them will be more than worth the cost.
Makes me wonder if Chinese are undercutting, original manufacturers are overpricing, or my sense of value for money is skewed because of the average price.

Surely with x-wing the issue is the painting, not the model?

Bloodknight
19-10-2015, 11:29
I did get a Games Day Nob in blister for about 12, bit it's not usually worth it as you'll pay up to (or over) 300% more just for some plastic and the cardboard backer.

Difference between collectors, I guess. I would never open that blister. :D


Surely with x-wing the issue is the painting, not the model?

Since the paint on pre-painted models is usually applied by sponge, I wouldn't be too surprised if there was some sweatshop painting up knock-offs of X-Wing minis.

aprilmanha
19-10-2015, 12:16
Since the paint on pre-painted models is usually applied by sponge, I wouldn't be too surprised if there was some sweatshop painting up knock-offs of X-Wing minis.

Since they are made in China and painted there to I expect, I doubt they have a factory making knockoffs.
I expect they just have half the production amount going out the back door to a 3rd party for selling Elsewhere :)

BFalcon
19-10-2015, 17:41
Since they are made in China and painted there to I expect, I doubt they have a factory making knockoffs.
I expect they just have half the production amount going out the back door to a 3rd party for selling Elsewhere :)

Didn't someone on here comment a while back about them running the production lines an extra 10 or 20 minutes per day to hand out to staff or something?

I know that they used to do overrun on the ice-cream factory line where I used to work and, if all went well, the surplus (after replacing damaged/light/heavy tubs) was given to the staff to take home, rather than just destroying it. We might be seeing a similar thing there, with someone buying up each staff member's "bonus" for export to the UK, EU or US markets?

Havarel
19-10-2015, 23:26
Interestingly, you can now buy the Tau terrain from recasters, meaning you can actually buy it from somewhere!

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Senbei
21-10-2015, 19:06
Difference between collectors, I guess. I would never open that blister. :D

Then what's the point in having it? If you're not going to enjoy painting and gaming with a miniature then you're going against it's very reason for existing*.

I should probably add that in 2008 I opened a factory sealed RT01 box.

*In my opinion, which is of no consequence at all.

Saunders
21-10-2015, 22:11
Makes me wonder if Chinese are undercutting, original manufacturers are overpricing, or my sense of value for money is skewed because of the average price.

Other than possible difference in the costs of the resin materials and mould (from what I understand there is a huge difference in cost between a cheap and an expensive mould), the main thing you're buying in to for Forgeworld is the development costs. Especially for these larger kits like the Warlord, a lot of work-hours go in to designing and developing the kit. A recaster from China doesn't need to worry about recouping any cost on that.

de Selby
21-10-2015, 23:21
I should probably add that in 2008 I opened a factory sealed RT01 box.

Well I hope you painted them then!

Senbei
22-10-2015, 05:20
Well I hope you painted them then!

Most of them. I've painted 2 squads. I didn't pay anywhere near the going rate for them, found them on a market stall for 20.

Orkusmorkus
23-10-2015, 20:45
China don't care about copywrite laws really anyway. What are the cost comparisons between the Chinese knockoffs and the real thing? I'm not interested in buying I'm just curious if they try to sell them much cheaper or whether they aim for a little cheaper to rip unaware consumers off.

https://www.androidpit.com/chinese-copies-of-the-best-smartphones

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/87772/chinese-copycat-cars

http://www.spiegel.de/international/china-s-art-factories-van-gogh-from-the-sweatshop-a-433134.html

That's right. Most of their 'powerful economy' was created by taking a dump on the concept of intellectual property. I think they got a taste for it after the Soviets let them do it freely with their tech during the Cold War.

I won't post any sources for 40k recasts, but it looks to me like most chinese copiers in most industries don't explicitly claim their products to be genuine, although they make no effort to inform the customer of the fact that they are fake. Except for things like clothes and guitars.

UndeadKing
23-10-2015, 21:26
I have a couple of recasts from china. Those being the chaplain from the command/ razorback squad and the terminator captain from the big terminator deal. Both cast in resin and perfectly cast. Cant complain but sometimes casts are gonna be hit and miss

tmod
24-10-2015, 00:04
Other than possible difference in the costs of the resin materials and mould (from what I understand there is a huge difference in cost between a cheap and an expensive mould), the main thing you're buying in to for Forgeworld is the development costs. Especially for these larger kits like the Warlord, a lot of work-hours go in to designing and developing the kit. A recaster from China doesn't need to worry about recouping any cost on that.

Not to mention gravity fed resin casting is a very slow and labour intensive production process. Low tech, and simple, but makes beautiful models, and takes a lot of time and cannot be automated...

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The_Real_Chris
24-10-2015, 23:03
I have some bfg pieces off eBay and some epic stuff. The resin has a distinct smell, wafer thin in places, but a better pour normally that forge world. Now who made them I have no idea, I am just assuming China


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Ben
26-10-2015, 09:31
I have some bfg pieces off eBay and some epic stuff. The resin has a distinct smell, wafer thin in places, but a better pour normally that forge world. Now who made them I have no idea, I am just assuming China


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You would be correct. It's bizarre the knock offs have better quality control than the originals.

Senbei
04-11-2015, 18:02
You would be correct. It's bizarre the knock offs have better quality control than the originals.

Not really. I bought a blister of Epic scale Whirlwinds from GW, circa 2010. They were absolute $%*7 casts. Multiple mold-lines, slippage and chunks of flash where they'd damaged the molds. All-in-all, the late 1980's, Adeptus Titanicus whirlwinds I have possess crisper and better cast detail than the most modern versions do. GW had just stopped caring.

Private_SeeD
26-11-2015, 07:07
I haven't personally bought stuff from China but I know people who have and they've been pleased with their purchases. They use a certain seller each time and have bought multiple items including a titan. The seller has a tendency to include random sprues as freebies. They recently had to change how they do things, the seller sends out pdf catalogue where each model has a code so on his store when he's selling a SM12 that's a space marine captain for example.
But it's crazy how fast this seller gets things up, within days of the KX139 Ta'unar going up on fw the china seller had released an updated pdf with it in. Whilst it was down as a sales promotion you would have got the full model for 71 (I used XE to work out the exchange rate)

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Infern0
27-11-2015, 18:35
Sometimes copies DO have better quality, than the original, even though that might sound impossoble (not for finecast, in some cases).
But I don`t see, how may it be more advanced, than the original in terms of detailing:it`s a copy, it can only go down on the scales. No warps/miscasts - that I get, but I would be intrested to see a finer detail job done on a knock-off.
I`ve seen a rhinox rider made in china. Seemed to be nearly perfect that thing. Although, it had a miscast on one of the hooves. The material was a bit glossy, I wonder how the quality of it will show, while painted/put together.

When it comes to piracy, I stand against it with some exceptions. If I can`t get an original anymore, it`s sold out and no way I`m getting it without being scalped on ebay, I`ll buy the knockoff. Diazanettes for example, or Kingdom death! Sorry, KD, but some if your minis are too gorgeous, and I discovered them too late!
*waiting for the stones and tomatoes to be thrown*

Niall78
28-11-2015, 02:21
When it comes to piracy, I stand against it with some exceptions. If I can`t get an original anymore, it`s sold out and no way I`m getting it without being scalped on ebay, I`ll buy the knockoff. Diazanettes for example, or Kingdom death! Sorry, KD, but some if your minis are too gorgeous, and I discovered them too late!
*waiting for the stones and tomatoes to be thrown*

I am a punk rocker. On a lot of older punk albums it used to say - "If this costs more than $4 steal it!". It was an attempt by bands to stop price gouging by greedy record shop owners.

The_Real_Chris
28-11-2015, 03:27
What happened to kingdom death?

Infern0
28-11-2015, 16:47
What happened to kingdom death?

Everything they produce is "while stocks last"

Cynec
10-12-2015, 20:49
I've bought Space Marine armor kits both direct from FW and from Russian "authentic product re-sellers" and honestly, the knockoff stuff required less cleaning and the details were all very crisp, including the grille detail on the front of the helmet respirators. On the other hand, if any branch of GW deserves support, it's FW, they have yet to go full Kirby.

MajorWesJanson
14-12-2015, 06:05
Chinacast has widely varying quality, depending on the model, source, or apparently even time of day. I've seen some that were solid resin that looked and felt near identical to FW, while others are a brittle resin and cast thin enough to see light through.

I agree that FW deserves support. I personally have paid my dues to them (Warlord, Reaver, and Warhound titans, all direct with certificates) and I buy other stuff from them when it strikes me, but I also source some kits from elsewhere to extend my hobby budget somewhat.

Speaking of Warlords, I really need to get back to mine. #47 has been languishing for a while. Got one leg and the torso all together, now the toughest part- line up the other leg and attach the hips so it is balanced and sturdy.

Cybtroll
14-12-2015, 07:03
I bought once some alternate weapons systems for my tanks (thank you GW for closing mail order. That's on you).

Quality is pretty good, price are ok (I.e: an imperial knight is 38 US ū$, 50$ with the Gallant/Crusader parts. This was the most recent model I've seen on catalogue).
I suspect resin isn't exactly healthy.. when drilled it smell like cianoacrylate.
But apart from that I think they are fine.

Ironically, I've spent money on GW thanks to China resellers. Having finally the opportunity to complete some tank conversions, I've purchased the tactical squad I was missing in my DA army. My first purchase after more than a decade (since I'm more a collector than a gamer, I quit GW when they close the mail order for spare parts)

Finally (and I don't mean that as an insult): but why complaining about China recaster? They COULD do what they do (legally speaking).
Either they have different laws or they are cover by government; they're perfectly legit from their point or view.
Exactly like is GW from its own when selling plastic pieces at a price (for pound) higher than gold.
Or as am I, when I decide
to purchase whatever I like from wherever I like.

Sparowl
14-12-2015, 18:12
Everything they produce is "while stocks last"

If you get on the mailing lists, he does restocks fairly often.

Also, the quality of his stuff is top notch. I have quite a few resin models from him, and have never had an issue with any of them (actual defects on the model. Did have a missing piece once, to which his wife sent out a replacement piece within a few days).