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Pegasus_Knight
16-10-2015, 20:31
Does anyone have any thoughts about what the future for bretonnians and the empire might be in age of sigmar? has it been alluded to at all? I know that they want to support all the old armies, however the lands which defined these races are no more and the new space marines are surely replacements of the empire. The aesthetic of the old bretonnians and empire doesn't seem to sit well at all with the new age of sigmar? I wonder if its to be a phased withdrawal of them?

Vazalaar
16-10-2015, 20:34
One of the authors appearantly mentioned something about Bretonnianesque knights riding lizards as an example of what all could be possible with AoS.

Berik
16-10-2015, 20:54
Bretonnianesque knights riding lizards is more a statement than example - Bretonnia is dead.

Choombatta
16-10-2015, 21:00
Empire is now the Free People, they were not supplanted by the Stormcast.
Not sure if Bretonnia is included in the Free People or not, as I have never looked at their warscrolls.
Just see what keyword they use.

Drakkar du Chaos
16-10-2015, 22:04
In Warhammer they are dead just like everything else thanks to EoT.

AoS is just about protecting GW's IP while making more cash with fresh trash so you can forget your generic medieval knight. Bretonnia will stay dead and none will speak again of them.

Choombatta
16-10-2015, 22:26
I just checked, and Bretonnia is indeed part of the Free People now.


In Warhammer they are dead just like everything else thanks to EoT.

AoS is just about protecting GW's IP while making more cash with fresh trash so you can forget your generic medieval knight. Bretonnia will stay dead and none will speak again of them.

I think Archaon, Arielle, Tyrion, Teclis, Morathi, Skarr, Valkyia, Scylla, and others may disagree with you here.

Buddy Bear
16-10-2015, 22:31
Those are just terms for the purpose of game interactions and being playable in game terms. In lore terms, the Empire and Bretonnia are both long extinct, and the humans running around the cheap ripoff of the Norse nine realms don't consider themselves part of the Empire or Bretonnia, and probably never even heard the terms.

Choombatta
16-10-2015, 22:37
Those are just terms for the purpose of game interactions and being playable in game terms. In lore terms, the Empire and Bretonnia are both long extinct, and the humans running around the cheap ripoff of the Norse nine realms don't consider themselves part of the Empire or Bretonnia, and probably never even heard the terms.
Possibly. We do not know yet as the fluff lore has not talked about either much.
Those who did survive the EoT still remember the old terms I am sure.

jet_palero
16-10-2015, 22:52
Possibly. We do not know yet as the fluff lore has not talked about either much.
Those who did survive the EoT still remember the old terms I am sure.

How did any humans survive the end times? The elves got away to their magic universe, but I thought all the humans just died when the world blew up?

SimaoSegunda
16-10-2015, 22:55
One of the beauties is that we don't know yet exactly what happened. The End Times didn't wrap everyone's story arcs up fully, so some possibilities remain open for the future.

Choombatta
16-10-2015, 23:32
How did any humans survive the end times? The elves got away to their magic universe, but I thought all the humans just died when the world blew up?

Outside of Sigmar, we do not know if any humans survived or not.
Those that did survive the End of Times for sure, like those I mentioned above, still remember.
Oddly enough, there was a line in one of the End Times books that said Imperial Scholars in the future would refer to this period as the End Times.
That could be taken to mean some of the history survived to be passed down, and that in fact there may be an Empire at some point to have Imperial Scholars.

Yrch
17-10-2015, 00:12
yeah the books state that some individuals and groups survived the Endtimes (for whatever reason).
Also Azyrheim is now home to Sigmars and his Stormcasts, Dwarfs, Elves and "Free People" aka Humans.
Azyrheim is gigantic (its build around the core of the Old World) and there is more than enough open for having scholars from the Old World lived through the Age of Myth, brought to Azyrheim and kept records of the times before.
People seem to forget that we are at the very beginning of the new world and that GW left a lot of doors open to have old armies survived as they are while expanding them or even adding new races.

Voss
17-10-2015, 02:23
Feel free to expect the terms 'bretonnia' and 'empire' to be bandied about a bit if it might help sales (assuming AoS lasts long enough to redo humans), though feel free to ignore the logical disconnect from jettisoning the old world just to reproduce tenuous connections that the 'New Audience' won't give two figs about...

But the look at the aesthetic of those models will change wildly, since moving away from historical substitutes from other companies is part of the point (regardless of how badly that will go to accomplish their goals). So expect knights wearing 'Bretobtainium' and riding geckos, and 'empire' models doing whatever to make them distinct from models people actually want.

Choombatta
17-10-2015, 03:16
Feel free to expect otherwise.
At this time, the only facts we have to go off are Bretonnia and Empire models are part of the Free People faction in AoS.
The only lore we have is that "in the future" there are Imperial Scholars that will refer to the end of the Old World as "The End Times".
Everything else is wishing or speculation.

Geep
17-10-2015, 04:25
But the look at the aesthetic of those models will change wildly, since moving away from historical substitutes from other companies is part of the point (regardless of how badly that will go to accomplish their goals). So expect knights wearing 'Bretobtainium' and riding geckos, and 'empire' models doing whatever to make them distinct from models people actually want.
This will almost certainly be the case, though it may take a long time to happen (as there's a lot of models to re-do). Current Empire and Bretonnia are far too strongly based on historical models for GWs liking- some kind of aspect will be ramped up to 11 in order to make them unique GW IP.

Personally, I don't expect to see anything that resembles the old Empire of Bretonnia- I expect all non-Chaos humans to be merged into a single 'free peoples' aesthetic, full of nearly every unit option you could want, with none of the old flavour from any human army. After all, GW doesn't want to potentially limit your purchases by having too many distinct factions.

Buddy Bear
17-10-2015, 04:36
My expectation is that Dark Elves, Wood Elves, High Elves, Empire, Bretonnia, Orcs & Goblins, Dwarfs, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen, Vampire Counts, and Ogre Kingdoms as we know them aesthetically are gone for good, and they'll be redone almost entirely, with only a few exceptions here and there (Like "Sylvaneth" from the Wood Elves surviving as-is, although I think the elven portion of that army is gone for good).

Okuto
17-10-2015, 04:52
Expect the worse but hope for the best, in my caue I have no hope that the empire/bretonnian aesthetic will return.....its gone along with the old world and I'm sure GW wants to do something radically different for the new humans that inhabit the "new world". AoS is a restart for the game, fluff and aesthetic so I would expect it as such.

I doubt GW will support empire/bretonnia in the long term, maybe the first 2-4 years of AoS but I suspect they'll drop support for any of them once the "free peoples" model line is sorted out. I haven't forgotten what GW did with my Dogs of War army, I suspect the same will occur with Empire and Bretonnia.

Choombatta
17-10-2015, 05:07
This is very possible, with plenty of precedence to back it up.
Just look at the evolution of the Slaan from 1st edition through 8th edition.
They started as devolved Old Ones that were thin, salamander like, and highly agile, who used lobotomized humans as slaves.
Overtime they become constructs of the Old Ones, bloated, frog like, and very sluggish, who had a whole race of lizards as an army.

lbecks
17-10-2015, 05:15
Human worshipers of Sigmar seems like it can still be a thing and co-exist with the Sigmarines. Like the IG to the Space Marines in 40k. But Bretonnia seems done.

Buddy Bear
17-10-2015, 05:18
Sadly, there's a big difference between "Human worshippers of Sigmar", and "Humans armed and equipped and aesthetically the same to the Empire." The later is almost certainly done as well, along with Handgunners, crossbowmen, Reiksguard Knights, Knights of the White Wolf, the War Altar of Sigmar, the Celestial Hurricanum, Luminark of Hysh, Greatswords, Demigryph Knights, College Wizards, Engineers, Witch Hunters, Warrior Priests, etc. Just look at all the Empire models which have "Karl Franz" written somewhere on them. I very much doubt any modern human is going to have the name of a human head of state from thousands of years in the past written on their armor.

Choombatta
17-10-2015, 05:33
War Altar of Sigmar seems to fit perfectly with Sigmar and the Free People who could worship him.
As for Karl Franz, considering he was the vessel Sigmar used to return to fight Archaon in the End Times, I could easily see him and the Stormcast venerating the name and legacy.
But again, all of this is pure speculation until lore has been written one way or the other.
We can guess all we want as to what will happen.
In the meantime, all the bretonnian and imperial units still exist and can be used in AoS games as Free People, and if you downloaded the warscrolls, they always will be.

Ludaman
17-10-2015, 05:44
The old world is dead. Anything GW can't tactlessly shoe-horn into AoS is dead too. Bretonnia being at the top of that list.

I wonder what soda we'd be drinking right now if Coca-cola hadn't realized their terrible mistake and canceled "new Coke"

Buddy Bear
17-10-2015, 05:46
Having a warscroll and existing in the background isn't the same thing. That's like saying that Karl Franz and Louen Leoncoeur are still running around because they have warscrolls. They clearly aren't, and even if they are, Karl Franz certainly doesn't have Ghal Maraz, because the Celestant-Prime has it.

smaxx
17-10-2015, 07:01
Does anyone have any thoughts about what the future for bretonnians and the empire might be in age of sigmar?
Kings of War and Kingdom of men or Basilea.

Buddy Bear
17-10-2015, 07:31
Kings of War and Kingdom of men or Basilea.

Don't forget The League of Rhordia and The Brotherhood.

Jind_Singh
17-10-2015, 08:33
Big part of me thinks that all models will be scrapped as each race is visited - Empire for sure as it's not even around and I don[t see how the look fits AoS for any of the 8th ed armies - except some Lizardmen, Skaven, and Orcs & Goblins

Ben
17-10-2015, 09:54
Bretonnia didn't get an army book since 6th edition. They were squatted ten years ago. They got wiped out off screen in the End Times books, there is no chance they are coming back.

If you have an army of the models, look at what other games (Kings of War, historicals) you can use that army for.

Likewise Empire aren't coming back, with the current background it would make absolutely zero sense.

smaxx
17-10-2015, 10:02
Likewise Empire aren't coming back, with the current background it would make absolutely zero sense.
I agree, even though it's odd to have a fantasy game without any human factions. In 40k there's the Militarum Whatevericum representing humans, so perhaps there will be some odd 'normal' humans for this game also. If it survives so long to need any. Really hope not...

Ben
17-10-2015, 10:24
They have had a picture with the Flagellants in, but the only normal humans being fanatical worshippers of Sigmar says some pretty bad things about Sigmar and weakens the argument that he isn't just a minor Chaos god.

Mudkip
17-10-2015, 10:52
Feel free to expect otherwise.
At this time, the only facts we have to go off are Bretonnia and Empire models are part of the Free People faction in AoS.
The only lore we have is that "in the future" there are Imperial Scholars that will refer to the end of the Old World as "The End Times".
Everything else is wishing or speculation.

I'm inclined to dismiss that last quote as thoughtless writing. This is the company that brought us sludge-punching fury and Vandus Hammerhand glorifying in the release of his divine magic, after all. Anyway, it takes a special kind of fanboyism or cognitive dissonance to believe that Bretonnia is not dead as a dodo. Even if a faction with the same name continued to exist, it would be so different as a result of the passage of time and events that it would either be unrecognizable, or it would just be implausible that they stayed a stagnant feudal realm for so long. Bretonnia is dead and gone, but you have the option of imagining your own generic feudal realm of knights as part of the Free Peoples. And what's a knight, anyway? Perhaps we'll see Brytonyan Glorylancers at some point but I've never heard of these "knights"...

Malagor
17-10-2015, 12:30
As a Bretonnia player, I have accepted our demise.
No matter what they do with the "free people", they will not be Bretonnia. They might have a unit that they try to make it seem like a bretonnia knight but it will not be Bretonnia.
The iconic traits of Bretonnia just don't work now, the lady of the lake, the power structure of the damsels, the quests, the oppression of the peasants and all that.
That's pretty hard to add in when we got Sigmar running around with the possible survivors living in his realm. They won't start worshipping the lady again with him running around.
And the game is more sci-fi now then fantasy so the classic knight is gone as well.
Bretonnia lives on in 9e Age and that's good.

ik0ner
17-10-2015, 16:34
It would, imho, actually be worse if they kept the empire and bretonnia as is in this new setting than if they didn't.

Choombatta
17-10-2015, 16:49
I'm inclined to dismiss that last quote as thoughtless writing. This is the company that brought us sludge-punching fury and Vandus Hammerhand glorifying in the release of his divine magic, after all. Anyway, it takes a special kind of fanboyism or cognitive dissonance to believe that Bretonnia is not dead as a dodo.

With no lore written one way or the other, how is it "thoughtless writing","fanboyism or cognitive dissonance"?
Until something is stated in the lore one way or the other, we are just speculating and wishing. I am, you are, and everyone else is.
Also, not once have I thought that the term "Bretonnia" would continue. I stated the units are now classified as "Free People", and some survivors of the Old World probably still remember the Bretonnia nation.
You can continue to use those "Bretonnia" models in AoS today, they are just classified as "Free People" instead.
I also agree that GW has plenty of precedence in radically changing factions, i.e. the Slaan, over time, and even have wiped out complete factions.

Pojko
17-10-2015, 22:01
Did I miss something as to why people say that there may be survivors from the Old World? As far as I remember, and correct me if I'm mistaken, but the whole Warhammer world was kind of sucked into a void. Sigmar was left floating around in space holding onto some orb, and met a space dragon which helped him make the new Age of Sigmar universe.

Obviously I oversimplified things, but wouldn't this mean that the only survivors of the Old World are the magical incarnates, and not your average Joe? Maybe, just maybe some other immortal special characters like Undead dudes and ladies. But certainly not any Bretonnian peasants or Empire citizens are around reminiscing about the good old days.

So I'd say that outside of war scrolls, there's nothing remaining of the Empire or Bretonnia as we know them.

Niall78
17-10-2015, 22:16
Did I miss something as to why people say that there may be survivors from the Old World? As far as I remember, and correct me if I'm mistaken, but the whole Warhammer world was kind of sucked into a void. Sigmar was left floating around in space holding onto some orb, and met a space dragon which helped him make the new Age of Sigmar universe.

Obviously I oversimplified things, but wouldn't this mean that the only survivors of the Old World are the magical incarnates, and not your average Joe? Maybe, just maybe some other immortal special characters like Undead dudes and ladies. But certainly not any Bretonnian peasants or Empire citizens are around reminiscing about the good old days.

So I'd say that outside of war scrolls, there's nothing remaining of the Empire or Bretonnia as we know them.

Maybe it wasn't a space dragon but a space kangaroo. Bretonnian peasants and Empire citizens were kept safe in its massive pouch as it roamed the stars.

"What's that Skippy? You've got Karl Franz in your pouch? Bonza mate!"

Holier Than Thou
17-10-2015, 23:25
Maybe it wasn't a space dragon but a space kangaroo. Bretonnian peasants and Empire citizens were kept safe in its massive pouch as it roamed the stars.

"What's that Skippy? You've got Karl Franz in your pouch? Bonza mate!"

Aaaaaaaaaand we have the next AOS novel.

Choombatta
17-10-2015, 23:50
Did I miss something as to why people say that there may be survivors from the Old World? As far as I remember, and correct me if I'm mistaken, but the whole Warhammer world was kind of sucked into a void. Sigmar was left floating around in space holding onto some orb, and met a space dragon which helped him make the new Age of Sigmar universe.

Obviously I oversimplified things, but wouldn't this mean that the only survivors of the Old World are the magical incarnates, and not your average Joe? Maybe, just maybe some other immortal special characters like Undead dudes and ladies. But certainly not any Bretonnian peasants or Empire citizens are around reminiscing about the good old days.

So I'd say that outside of war scrolls, there's nothing remaining of the Empire or Bretonnia as we know them.

As far as we know, yes, the only survivors were the incarnates and chaos.
Once the lore delves more into other factions, we will see if the Seraphon include any of the Lizardmen from the Old World or if any of the elves from the Old World survived somehow.
Although, Morathi was not an incarnate and she survived, via the chaos route of course.

Voss
18-10-2015, 03:23
Did I miss something as to why people say that there may be survivors from the Old World? As far as I remember, and correct me if I'm mistaken, but the whole Warhammer world was kind of sucked into a void. Sigmar was left floating around in space holding onto some orb, and met a space dragon which helped him make the new Age of Sigmar universe.

Obviously I oversimplified things, but wouldn't this mean that the only survivors of the Old World are the magical incarnates, and not your average Joe? Maybe, just maybe some other immortal special characters like Undead dudes and ladies. But certainly not any Bretonnian peasants or Empire citizens are around reminiscing about the good old days.

So I'd say that outside of war scrolls, there's nothing remaining of the Empire or Bretonnia as we know them.

You aren't very mistaken. The 'orb' was the core of the world (made of Sigmarite) peeled of its crust and mantle and people. This was in some of the WD pages that got posted around. So a population is pretty out. Some incarnates, elves, and lizards in bubbles as survivors, but normal human survivors are pretty out of the question by the fluff already written.

Buddy Bear
18-10-2015, 03:41
Yeah, didn't space dragon show Sigmar brand new worlds which had nothing to do with the Old World, and that's where he found the new humans?

Dosiere
18-10-2015, 03:50
Empire is now the Free People, they were not supplanted by the Stormcast.
Not sure if Bretonnia is included in the Free People or not, as I have never looked at their warscrolls.
Just see what keyword they use.

This is true in regard to the war scrolls. I think what people are actually talking about is the lore and culture direction of "regular" humans moving forward. It would be pretty stupid to just say the two dominant human sub factions just happen to exactly resemble these two factions from millennia and two civilization ending chaos invasions ago. It would also be silly considering where they live.

It's the celestial realm yo, with giant balls of sigmarite, immortal genetically engineered thunder warriors, and direct and powerful interactions with deities of law and order. The empire was a 16th century Germany where all the scary nursery rhymes and folk tales were actually true plus a good measure of Tolkien inspired fantasy for good measure.

melonmelon
18-10-2015, 06:36
There are city-states in Mortal Realm not fall to Chaos yet. their military force not great, but still capable to kill the Lord of Khorne of Bloodbound, and wiped half(?) of the warband.

2DSick
18-10-2015, 09:33
16th century Germany where all the scary nursery rhymes and folk tales were actually true plus a good measure of Tolkien inspired fantasy for good measure.

I looooved this. The reason I started beasts of chaos 6th ed was "the thing in the woods" ideas.... Around the same time as Mordheim:Empire in flames.

Good times :(

Teurastaja
18-10-2015, 10:48
Old World had many good horror elements, I miss that :(

mdauben
18-10-2015, 10:56
I have a feeling that the current free AOS write ups for the Bret and Empire are all the "support" they are ever going to get. We may see some future forces with historical links to one or the other, but the Brets and Empire as we knew them are gone.

From a Galaxy far, far away...

Darkspear
19-10-2015, 22:17
It is all stated in the warscolls introduction section. Empire and Bretonnian exists just for players to recreate the battles of the world-that-was....using AoS rules.

Coraxis
19-10-2015, 23:39
I looooved this. The reason I started beasts of chaos 6th ed was "the thing in the woods" ideas.... Around the same time as Mordheim:Empire in flames.

Good times :(

The "Don't go in the woods" trope was the thing that made me love WHF too. That creatures lurking behind the tree line, in those germanic style forests, with that helpless villages near those woods...It was inspiring certainly. Something that I find lacking in AoS, where everything is so chaotic and scary that it isn't scary at all (besides I don't know what an armoured angelic automata could fear...).

Geep
20-10-2015, 06:02
besides I don't know what an armoured angelic automata could fear...
They have a 1 in 6 chance of fearing any rock they come across.

I agree that AoS is really lacking in the 'human' element. There's not a single aspect to the background that speaks to me.

Moirdryd
20-10-2015, 19:53
Pretty sure the angelic automata would fear the Adeptus Astartes ;-)

2DSick
20-10-2015, 21:28
They have a 1 in 6 chance of fearing any rock they come across.



Chortle chortle chortle.

:D

MDSW
21-10-2015, 14:15
I really just do not get it. People loved these armies because they represented a recognizable middle-age faction, whether somewhat historically or whatnot. What GW has done now to try and keep the IP to themselves is created this incomprehensible pile of hodgepodge and fluff with figures really no one can identify with. Do they think this is the strategy to keep them at the forefront of the game market and sell lots of minis by coming up with these weird concepts? OK, do we think these way-off realities have helped these companies wildly succeed? Warmachine, Heroscape, Hordes, Malifaux, etc.**

I think not...

** I am not a player of any of these, just know they exist and have rules and minitaure ranges, so I am certainly not an expert!

Ludaman
21-10-2015, 20:05
I really just do not get it. People loved these armies because they represented a recognizable middle-age faction, whether somewhat historically or whatnot. What GW has done now to try and keep the IP to themselves is created this incomprehensible pile of hodgepodge and fluff with figures really no one can identify with. Do they think this is the strategy to keep them at the forefront of the game market and sell lots of minis by coming up with these weird concepts? OK, do we think these way-off realities have helped these companies wildly succeed? Warmachine, Heroscape, Hordes, Malifaux, etc.**

I think not...

** I am not a player of any of these, just know they exist and have rules and minitaure ranges, so I am certainly not an expert!

War machine and hordes are now both very successful especially in the United States. I think games workshop was hoping for this level of success with their age of Sigmar range. For whatever reason they've never been able to comprehend the fact that these games are successful because they're built for tournament style play and their rules are regularly updated to help to fix imbalances.

Vulgarsty
21-10-2015, 20:50
War machine and hordes are now both very successful especially in the United States. I think games workshop was hoping for this level of success with their age of Sigmar range. For whatever reason they've never been able to comprehend the fact that these games are successful because they're built for tournament style play and their rules are regularly updated to help to fix imbalances.

The "whatever reason" is because market research is otiose in a niche. Surely you know that, its engraved above the entrance to Havard Business School, Kirby's Alma Mater.

Katastrophe
21-10-2015, 21:35
For whatever reason they've never been able to comprehend the fact that these games are successful because they're built for tournament style play and their rules are regularly updated to help to fix imbalances.

They understand it, they just don't believe that matters to the customers they want. As they often state, their target customers are the ones that buy their products and they create the market for those customers.

We often think in terms of the customer being right and the business trying to provide the customer what the customer wants. Kirby has stated that is not what they are looking for and not the way they want their market to operate.

Gonefishing
21-10-2015, 22:53
They understand it, they just don't believe that matters to the customers they want. As they often state, their target customers are the ones that buy their products and they create the market for those customers.

We often think in terms of the customer being right and the business trying to provide the customer what the customer wants. Kirby has stated that is not what they are looking for and not the way they want their market to operate.

The strange thing is they have been moving in this direction for the last 4 years.....and in that time period they have lost 25% of their sales. It does not take a genius, or even a skilled market researcher to identify what the causal link might be in this situation....

If there aim is to make lots of money (and I think that if there is one thing on this forum we can all agree on 100%, its the fact that GW's aim is to make lots of money) you would think somebody over there would have raised his hand tentatively in the air by now and said "Er, Mr Kirby Sir, maybe if we tried providing what the customer wants, while simultaneously producing these fine collectable miniature works of art we might, you know, broaden our market appeal and sell more?".

Voss
21-10-2015, 23:05
The "whatever reason" is because market research is otiose in a niche. Surely you know that, its engraved above the entrance to Havard Business School, Kirby's Alma Mater.

To be fair, having worked in the library at Harvard Business, the students there don't have the sense to put on a winter coat when its below zero with two feet of snow on the ground.

MDSW
22-10-2015, 22:29
War machine and hordes are now both very successful especially in the United States. I think games workshop was hoping for this level of success with their age of Sigmar range. For whatever reason they've never been able to comprehend the fact that these games are successful because they're built for tournament style play and their rules are regularly updated to help to fix imbalances.

Privateer Press, albeit a semingly very well run company, is still miniscule compared to GW in both size and the number of people that play their game. They are growing, I will certainly grant you that.

Buddy Bear
22-10-2015, 22:45
Are they really miniscule by comparison? Warmachine and Hordes are currently the 4th and 5th best selling games on the market, with both outselling Warhammer Fantasy for the past three years and Warmachine outselling it for even longer than that.

Wesser
23-10-2015, 12:52
One of the beauties is that we don't know yet exactly what happened. The End Times didn't wrap everyone's story arcs up fully, so some possibilities remain open for the future.

Beauty? Fluffwise I might be less harsh on AoS if it weren't the lamest plothook ever devised. Even worse than "a wizard did it"

Commodus Leitdorf
23-10-2015, 13:39
I think it's safe to say that if there is a full human faction that is to come in AoS it will be completely different from the current range. I imagine there will just be a melding of the two factions into a sort of "Imperial Guard" for the Stormcast. What souls Sigmar was able to save before the world ended, reborn to the world as a new faction that I imagine will probably be super devout to Sigmar while also being very Steampunky.

MDSW
23-10-2015, 14:45
Are they really miniscule by comparison? Warmachine and Hordes are currently the 4th and 5th best selling games on the market, with both outselling Warhammer Fantasy for the past three years and Warmachine outselling it for even longer than that.

Size of company, yes. As admitted I do not play these games and no where at any of the FLGS do I see these games being played, so it must be my neck of the US where I just do not see it. I do see the minis and they look pretty good.


I think it's safe to say that if there is a full human faction that is to come in AoS it will be completely different from the current range. I imagine there will just be a melding of the two factions into a sort of "Imperial Guard" for the Stormcast. What souls Sigmar was able to save before the world ended, reborn to the world as a new faction that I imagine will probably be super devout to Sigmar while also being very Steampunky.

A-Ha!! That's it!! They wanted to get us all into Steampunk all along!! I detest it and all of its artsy industrialization...