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View Full Version : Would you play against this/is this cheese



mikesmight123
17-10-2015, 19:00
Thinking about starting a new army.



The aim it to do most of my damage in the psychic phase with withfires.



The general idea is to have a lord of change mastery lvl 3 with a grimoir.



Then I would have a max squad if screamers



Then I would have 3 heralds of tzeentch all lvl 3. One would have the exalted loci of tzeentch to give +1 strength to all withfires. The others would be basic. All heralds will have a disc of tzeentch.



The.I would 2 tzeentch dameon princes with both lvl3,and a lesser and greater reward each. All princes will have wings and armour. For their reward I would most likely swap it out for a staff of change and mutating warpblade. 7 s8 ap2 attacks on the charge that turns characters into chaos spa-(waaaaah,eeurgh!) is nothing to laugh at.



I will then fill up the remaining points with horrors, no upgrade.



I hate the idea of summoning, so the lord of change,and the heralds will generate 2 divination powers and 1 tzeentch power. The princes will focus in combat so they will generate 3 divination powers.



Now the reason why I ask is this cheese is because of the likelihood I will be able to get a 2++ re-rollable and I will have 15+ warp charges to play with denying my opponent the psychic phase. My meta consists of alot of marines and chaos marines and tau and necrons and orks.

WarsmithGarathor94
17-10-2015, 19:38
The princes cant take divination but id have no problem facing this with the exception of the screamers the lords of change and princes the rest folds easily in combat

mikesmight123
17-10-2015, 20:30
Princes can take divination as of the current daemon codex.

So is the cc ability of the army too much?

RedDangus
17-10-2015, 20:46
The princes cant take divination but id have no problem facing this with the exception of the screamers the lords of change and princes the rest folds easily in combat

Haha, no problem facing it with the exception of 75% of his army :p

I say say go for it. I've played a pretty similar list before with a lord of change, two heralds and two daemon princes with some screamers and a soul grinder and it worked out pretty well. I may make some adjustments to that list and play it more like what you've suggested. It looks like fun.

WarsmithGarathor94
17-10-2015, 22:07
Psh Lord of changes fall.easy to plague knifes :p

Karhedron
17-10-2015, 22:38
Just watch out for Culexus Assassins on the Imperial side. :evilgrin:

Lord Damocles
17-10-2015, 22:45
Is this a question asking whether a screamer star list is cheese :confused:

NagashLover
17-10-2015, 22:56
I sure would, though I do play with a large amount of terrain which appears to go counter to what I see and hear about from others on many boards. I find even the most skewed or OP lists are balanced out by actually having table with legitimate terrain over having barren wastelands that function more as a shooting gallery. Then again I have over 20 years worth of terrain work to use.

Ironbone
17-10-2015, 23:09
Even on pancake flat table rerolabe 2++ is extremaly hard to beat, especialy with jetbike mobility to avoid at lest some of enemy firepower.

TremendousZ
18-10-2015, 02:06
What's keeping Fateweaver out of the party?

Cheese would be determine by the point limit. If you are fitting this below 1250, I'd say yes. 2000, no not really. The difference being how min you max you troops.

I've been thinking of doing a mono-tzeentch list for an escalation painting league, because I feel there has to be a point limit that these guys can be effective. Now have you purchased all these models already? If not, I'll share a few things I did to mix it up a bit.

Instead of 3 heralds on discs take a look at The Blue Scribes. Has some potential for a lot of craziness and spells you normally could not access AND they auto-cast so a great way to try and drain some dispel dice. If you get lucky, you get some no risk warp charge 2 powers! The other I would recommend is try maxing a unit of pink horrors adding the Changeling and giving the squad leader the blue horror bonus loci. The changeling can do some fun stuff, just think of challenging a chaos lord, space marine captain, heck even a warboss, you pick and choose stats to match. Then if your pink horrors die the more blue horror explosions!

With those two minor tweaks I doubt running mono-tzeentch can be complained about too much. Just don't be afraid to drop the grimoire for a friendly game. If your trying to take this to a tourney, then Grim On! Hope this helps!

mikesmight123
18-10-2015, 08:02
Is this a question asking whether a screamer star list is cheese :confused:


I don't plan on giving the screamer star a 2++ re roll able. I will only go as far as a 3++.

mikesmight123
18-10-2015, 08:18
What's keeping Fateweaver out of the party?

Cheese would be determine by the point limit. If you are fitting this below 1250, I'd say yes. 2000, no not really. The difference being how min you max you troops.

I've been thinking of doing a mono-tzeentch list for an escalation painting league, because I feel there has to be a point limit that these guys can be effective. Now have you purchased all these models already? If not, I'll share a few things I did to mix it up a bit.

Instead of 3 heralds on discs take a look at The Blue Scribes. Has some potential for a lot of craziness and spells you normally could not access AND they auto-cast so a great way to try and drain some dispel dice. If you get lucky, you get some no risk warp charge 2 powers! The other I would recommend is try maxing a unit of pink horrors adding the Changeling and giving the squad leader the blue horror bonus loci. The changeling can do some fun stuff, just think of challenging a chaos lord, space marine captain, heck even a warboss, you pick and choose stats to match. Then if your pink horrors die the more blue horror explosions!

With those two minor tweaks I doubt running mono-tzeentch can be complained about too much. Just don't be afraid to drop the grimoire for a friendly game. If your trying to take this to a tourney, then Grim On! Hope this helps!


I'm keeping fate weaver because I want the lord of change to possess the grimoir/exalted reward and fate weaver can't. Also I know fateweaver is better in almost everyway I like the idea if s normal lord of change leading an army.that the way it fights is quite fluffy, (un the codex its says daemons of tzeentch enter battle on a carpet of fire and they attack with their witchfires. This is how I've represented such a think. Most things in my army are fast for this reason. I just love the idea of semi screamer star with a 3++ shooting a fast amount of witchfires that are +1 strength due to the exalted loci.

I've just made a 2000 pt list (where I intend to use this list the most) and I've managed to squeeze 2 heralds the lord of change with the exalted a full screamer squad and 58 pink horrors. Giving me around 24 warp charges.

I may swap one herald for the blues scribes to tone it down. The changeling looks fun and would lead to some crazy shenanigans.

TremendousZ
18-10-2015, 20:24
I liked the idea of the +1s witchfire. You are going to be fighting a fairly uphill battle most of the time. The daemon princes will probably be the mvp most games, if they get into combat. I think you real strengths will be the element of surprise. Opponents wont expect most of the tricks your bringing and will focus on the screamer star/DPs early.

Trust in the weaver/deceiver of fates, you are playing tzeentch after all. You never know if fate will shine on you with the Blue Scribes, but when it does it will be sweet. The Changeling's strengths are in close combat vs high stat opponents, and horrors are going to die to get him in there. That's where the blue horror rule meets the loci of transmogrification and once again the element of surprise. A unit of pink horrors designed for combat?!? Just for giggles throw a lesser reward on the iridescent horror for the staff of change, more explosions more fun!

Check the Blasted standard for your primary shooting unit too. Could couple well with a icon to not scatter you can drop some heat infantry. They will need the feel no pain you give them. Good Luck! Glad to hear your keeping it fun.

thanoson
19-10-2015, 19:31
Is this a question asking whether a screamer star list is cheese :confused:

Really, there needs to be a damn like button already.

Saunders
21-10-2015, 19:59
This is a pretty common build theme for competitive daemons.

youngsamwise
23-10-2015, 21:44
This would hardly be considered competitive for daemons and especially since the OP declared he is skipping malefic. Couple of points that may or may not be clear to you:
1. Tzeentch princes do NOT have access to divination

2. Blue scribes are NOT heralds and therefore use one HQ slot by themselves

3. The locus will indeed give +1 strength to psychic shooting attacks, however you are still limited to using any psychic power only once per UNIT. So if you have four heralds in a unit of screamers you have four users of flickering fire. However, only one model in the unit is permitted to use flickering fire per turn just like all psychic powers. The locus is mostly useless.

4. Commonly overlooked and rarely useful piece of info: a psyker may never generate more than half his powers from any discipline in the daemon book. You are going to wind up with plenty of divination and not much to use it on. You can't have a herald load up on tzeentch powers to make sure you get them all.

5. Let a herald carry the grimoire. You really want the lord of change as your warlord here and by having him carry the grimoire you are limiting his survivability. You are preventing him from taking the greater rewards which can be spectacular. You are also ensuring he can never benefit from the grimoire. The lord of of change is the most versatile unit in the codex...having him babysit screamers is not a great use of him.

6. Be prepared for a 10-15 minute prep time just to generate powers. This is the army of book keeping - Chaos daemons are more like chaos accountants.

Consider taking the portal glyph as well to summon more horrors.

I play mono tzeentch all the time. Summoning is really fun in the right circumstances such as bringing flamers onto the table at just the right time or screamers toward the end of the game for the quick objective grab. If you find the army just isn't much fun to play try adding malefic back into the mix.

mikesmight123
25-10-2015, 21:57
This would hardly be considered competitive for daemons and especially since the OP declared he is skipping malefic. Couple of points that may or may not be clear to you:
1. Tzeentch princes do NOT have access to divination

2. Blue scribes are NOT heralds and therefore use one HQ slot by themselves

3. The locus will indeed give +1 strength to psychic shooting attacks, however you are still limited to using any psychic power only once per UNIT. So if you have four heralds in a unit of screamers you have four users of flickering fire. However, only one model in the unit is permitted to use flickering fire per turn just like all psychic powers. The locus is mostly useless.

4. Commonly overlooked and rarely useful piece of info: a psyker may never generate more than half his powers from any discipline in the daemon book. You are going to wind up with plenty of divination and not much to use it on. You can't have a herald load up on tzeentch powers to make sure you get them all.

5. Let a herald carry the grimoire. You really want the lord of change as your warlord here and by having him carry the grimoire you are limiting his survivability. You are preventing him from taking the greater rewards which can be spectacular. You are also ensuring he can never benefit from the grimoire. The lord of of change is the most versatile unit in the codex...having him babysit screamers is not a great use of him.

6. Be prepared for a 10-15 minute prep time just to generate powers. This is the army of book keeping - Chaos daemons are more like chaos accountants.

Consider taking the portal glyph as well to summon more horrors.

I play mono tzeentch all the time. Summoning is really fun in the right circumstances such as bringing flamers onto the table at just the right time or screamers toward the end of the game for the quick objective grab. If you find the army just isn't much fun to play try adding malefic back into the mix.


1) wow I was not aware of this, looked it up in the codex and was surprised

2) I am aware of this.

3) one cast of flickering fire is enough (4d6 shots). I will also have bolt of change and infernal gateway to help out.

4)I'm thinking about going 2 in tzeentch, had a test of yjis list with proxies and I had too many divination owerrs that were usless
5) seems good advice and I cant think why not

6) I am aware of this


Thanks for the points!

gwarsh41
27-10-2015, 17:42
I don't see this list as cheesy, its more of a fluff thing. Mono daemons are tough to be cheese with. If you were going summoning flying circus it would be cheesy.

Grand Master Raziel
28-10-2015, 21:39
Here's a house rule may make your opponents feel less conflicted about facing the army: Psykers may not use power dice from other psykers for casting powers or making dispel attempts. They can only use their own dice, and dice generated from the D6 roll at the beginning of the psychic phase.

This makes sure you're taking psychic units because of the powers they have, and not to feed dice to other psykers. It also keeps the psychic-heavy army from completely shutting down psykers on the other side of the table because it limits how many dice you can put into a single dispel attempt.