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Herkamer63
21-10-2015, 15:35
Earlier, new information came out for the 7th ed tau codex. According the information from a leaked white dwarf article, the new codex will be updated from its previous one, with the new units, rules, and history. Also to be included, are the formations from the campaign book. Sounds standard, right, with exception to the formations from Warzone? The community, however, is all up in arms because they think this is implying that nothing is changing. My question is: how big of a change were you guys expecting?

Just real quick on tau: they don't need big changes. A few tweaks here and there, but no overhauling. They were pretty good in 6th , and they're still good in this edition. Supporting fire, interceptor, and the signature systems gave the boost that tau really needed. There should be some changes, yes, but nothing gigantic (we got that with Craftworld Eldar, thank you very much, in which I think should go back to what they were rule wise). Other than that, they're fine. Let it go.

Isn't this what codex updates are suppose to be, updating some of the current rules and adding new ones? SM, if you look at it, didn't get many updates, other than new squads and squadrons for previous units, and weapons (and let's not forget the formations). Other than that and tweaking some rules, nothing huge changed. It was more adding on than actually changing. If you completely change the core rules to SM, then they're not the Marines I, or anyone else, remember.

Now, I understand there are armies that definitely need a lot of changes like Chaos (CSM and CD) sisters, DE, Nids (needs many improvements), and Craftworld Eldar (needs several nut shots to their rules). So I hear you guys, on those examples, but if the army is already good from get-go, what huge/many changes must be made to make the army any better? In conclusion, based on my opinion, if the army is not finding much success, even for the veteran players, make the big/many changes, but the army is doing well and doesn't have much in complications, make minor changes, and if the army is Craftworld Eldar, then you better be prepared to run because you'll burn at the stake for heresy and treason, witch. There you have it. Do you guys agree? Disagree? What's your take?

P.S. Yes I was knocking on Eldar. They're not my favorite army right now (and I'm sure I'm not alone on this). If you're offended by this, please leave this thread.

Smooth Boy
21-10-2015, 16:20
It all has me a bit worried. From what I understand nothing is changing in the Tau Codex at all with the new units being available in either its reprint or the new warzone book that's coming out alongside it. Now I'm no Tau expert but I'm pretty sure the point costs in the book won't be perfect and the idea that they feel they literally have to do nothing is worrying in that they don't seem to care anymore. I mean we all know they don't give a toss about the rules but now they don't even care that we know they don't care... if you get my drift. Codex updates should be about adding a few new units, some new lore and balance. They only seem interested in the former now.

I agree it's not a huge issue for Tau because their book was ok, although compared to Eldar I'd feel ripped off. But again it's a worrying trend for the game, some codices do need a massive overhaul like Chaos and I can see this becoming a trend until 40K gets AoS'd and then the rules are free and before we know it we're all screaming "FOR THE EMPURRRURRR!" for our 3++ re-rolls.

ed. actually looking at the white dwarf leak it appears they are adding new stuff its only the rules that will not change, so it might not be as dramatic as I first imagined. Basically getting the SM treatment but they're being honest with people.

Okuto
21-10-2015, 16:57
I have mixed feelings on it, I didnt really think tau warranted a new dex over CSM but I feel this "band aid" effect will spell problems long term. Granted I'm content I don't have to buy another tau dex(esp. since only one of the new releases interest me) but I hope they pick wisely who to do it too.

I don't want CSM band aid for one......the current book simply must go

MagicHat
21-10-2015, 18:14
Isn't this what codex updates are suppose to be, updating some of the current rules and adding new ones? SM, if you look at it, didn't get many updates, other than new squads and squadrons for previous units, and weapons (and let's not forget the formations). Other than that and tweaking some rules, nothing huge changed. It was more adding on than actually changing. If you completely change the core rules to SM, then they're not the Marines I, or anyone else, remember.

There were a lot of tweaks, and even though some of them were small, they were nevertheless changes.
Stalkers, techmarines/MotF/thunderfire, scouts of all variants, the warlord traits, the chapter traits, the dreads, the van/stern-guards, the command squad, the honour guard, the stormtalon, bikes and HQ interaction, both kinds of Centurions, the vindicator, Telion and probably some other things were changed, either through stat changes, rules or small point tweaks.

I would argue that Tau Empire could and should have benefited from similar tweaks.

Herkamer63
21-10-2015, 19:06
There were a lot of tweaks, and even though some of them were small, they were nevertheless changes.
Stalkers, techmarines/MotF/thunderfire, scouts of all variants, the warlord traits, the chapter traits, the dreads, the van/stern-guards, the command squad, the honour guard, the stormtalon, bikes and HQ interaction, both kinds of Centurions, the vindicator, Telion and probably some other things were changed, either through stat changes, rules or small point tweaks.

I would argue that Tau Empire could and should have benefited from similar tweaks.

That's part of my point. I don't mind tweaking units a bit to bring them into this edition and making them more modern, but for armies that were already good, they don't need a complete overhaul. Tau is one of those armies, which I would expect some changes coming. As of right now, however, a new codex is coming and we don't know what's in it yet. There's been images from WD and parts of the campaign book, but nothing from the codex itself. We have just been given snip bits on what to expect from it. The only things that I would like to know is are the hammerheads/skyrays being put into squadrons and is Farsight becoming EW with other buffs. Again, I understand the fears, but to me when I think of updates to something current, it means small changes to everyone. I will admit though Eldar definitely is GW'S baby. Spamming D weapons and scatter lasers along with the already spammed bladestorm based weapons makes any other player who doesn't play Eldar feel screwed over. "You can kill them with bolted fire". If you can see them and can get to go. "They're a specialist army". Yeah, specializing in being awesome at everything and killing everybody else.

Saunders
21-10-2015, 19:54
You know, you can always pick up Eldar if you want to play Eldar.

murgel2006
21-10-2015, 19:58
That's part of my point. I don't mind tweaking units a bit to bring them into this edition and making them more modern, but for armies that were already good, they don't need a complete overhaul. Tau is one of those armies, which I would expect some changes coming. As of right now, however, a new codex is coming and we don't know what's in it yet. There's been images from WD and parts of the campaign book, but nothing from the codex itself. We have just been given snip bits on what to expect from it. The only things that I would like to know is are the hammerheads/skyrays being put into squadrons and is Farsight becoming EW with other buffs. Again, I understand the fears, but to me when I think of updates to something current, it means small changes to everyone. I will admit though Eldar definitely is GW'S baby. Spamming D weapons and scatter lasers along with the already spammed bladestorm based weapons makes any other player who doesn't play Eldar feel screwed over. "You can kill them with bolted fire". If you can see them and can get to go. "They're a specialist army". Yeah, specializing in being awesome at everything and killing everybody else.

Aside from the try to revive the dead discussion about eldar, I agree totally. Codex updates, especially those of working codices should not try to reinvent an army. We have to admit however that many of the reinventions have had brilliant stuff in them AND just updating could be done in FAQs/update files for download. Personally I would feel cheated if I were made to pay 50 for a reprint with corrections. So I will accept the ups and downs of new codices. I had a good BA and now have a weak one, I had a good SW and now it sucks (because it is now Codex Thunderwolves), I had a mediocre Eldar (codex Waveserpent) and now have a really good one and so on for all my armies.:cool:
Would I like to see no radical changes to units or codex rules? NO, because one of the reasons I get interested in a new codex/edition is about the changes. Do I think I could do it better than GW? He, I'm a 40k player, we know we could do better any day... :D

MaliGn
21-10-2015, 22:11
Surely the only fair thing to do to an army that has been more or less consistently decent for ages is to smash it with the nerf hammer, rip out all the synergy and make it a dreadful mish mash of wildly inappropriate points costs leading to single effective built syndrome? You know, like Tyranids and Chaos.

Smooth Boy
21-10-2015, 22:28
Surely the only fair thing to do to an army that has been more or less consistently decent for ages is to smash it with the nerf hammer, rip out all the synergy and make it a dreadful mish mash of wildly inappropriate points costs leading to single effective built syndrome? You know, like Tyranids and Chaos.

Until you finished I was about to say "but we already have Tyranids?", where points go up and BS goes down.

Herkamer63
22-10-2015, 00:10
Okay, I'll stop with Eldar bashing, but it doesn't change how I feel about them. Anyway, I will admit I do like an occasional radical change. For tau, if you consider it radical, I love supporting fire. It makes up for the lack of good CC. I also like interceptor upgrades on battlesuits. It gave them an answer to drop pod assault and flier spam lists. So yeah, I love those ideas. But for an army like tyranids, when 5th ed came around, no longer being able to assault out of reserve came about, unless you had ymargl genestealers, they took a big nut shot there. Then 6th ed nids came and... yeah. So I'd say if there were radical changes, bring back assaulting out of reserve, invulnerable saves for some synapse creatures, fnp, and make those of the units beasts. I'd have no problem with that.

Grarik
22-10-2015, 01:27
Ok, so from what I understand War Zone Damocles will have the new stuff in it, so you don't technically need to buy the updated codex. It is still possible that older units will still get changed slightly, and there is precedent for an existing unit being modified in a campaign book: zoanthropes had their maximum unit sized modified and an upgrade character included in the Shield of Baal campaign book.

Losing Command
22-10-2015, 05:30
You only need the to get the new codex or the campaign book if you want to use any of the new units. Sounds alright at first, untill you realize you either need 2 books or get the new codex which is an admitted copy-paste job. Either way makes me hope none of the armies I play get a 'new' codex anytime soon.

Such a shame they didn't even try to pretend putting in some effort to make Tau armies more diverse. You rarely see any railguns anymore, or anything that is not a battlesuit, and I've never even spotted Vespid in real life ...

MajorWesJanson
22-10-2015, 11:10
There are a ton of minor and major changes that they could have done to make Tau a better, more balanced book with the new edition-

More options for Kroot (though a Kroot merc mini book would solve this)
Do something with Vespids- Breachers have basically stolen their anti-MEQ gun
Fix wargear balance issues- Early Warning Override should be 15-20 points, not 5. Ion Accelerator should also be 10-15 points, not 5. HYMP either should cost more, or Heavy Rail Rifle needs a boost to make it competitive. Same with SMS vs Burst cannons on tanks.
Bring back some of the lost wargear like target array and target lock for vehicles.
Stealth Suit price adjustment.
Devilfish price adjustment.
Razorshark + Sunshark price/rules adjustment
Squadrons- Eldar and Marines got them, with bonuses for 3 vehicle units. Tau Lord of War can be taken in a unit of 3, as can the Ghostkeel. Why not the Hammerhead or Skyray?

All changes that don't appear to be addressed by adding new units and formations.

Herkamer63
22-10-2015, 15:09
Well let's be honest here for a moment. We have not seen what's inside the new codex. All we know is what the WD issue said and that it is an update from 2013's codex. It could have been poor choice of words, or they simply didn't elaborate on that further of what that means. Working at an eye doctor's office and dealing with insurance, people will say that their medical insurance will pick up, for example, glasses. Upon further digging, however, me and my co-workers would discover there's another insurance that they have. Or they say that their insurance helps cover towards their medical visit, which the doctor at our office can perform medical procedures as well as vision, but when submit the claims insurance will "nope, they still have a deductible to meet before cover anything".

How does this relate to the thread? There's some miscommunication/misunderstanding somewhere. Instead of jumping to conclusions, there will be more leaks coming to confirm whether or not it's a cut and paste copy of the last codex. And as I mentioned earlier, the codex is not out yet to the general public, so even with some leaks, it won't be everything. As of right now, Tau are in a good spot, IMO.

WarsmithGarathor94
22-10-2015, 18:59
il be honest it dosent.bother me as primarily a csm.player ive realised gw will.never give us a decent.codex or.one the faction.actually deserves :/ heck they gave a ability which should of been ours to the dark eldar so :p