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BobBell
22-10-2015, 09:55
Hello all

I imagine the answer to this would vary chapter by chapter, but do you think space marines retain their property when they are recruited, or do they have to give all that up?

Imagine a recruit from a noble house, far from the line of succession. He joins the chapter and never looks back. Then one day he finds out that all his relatives have died off leaving him the heir to their property - some of which could be very useful to the chapter. What happens?

What about the last remaining relative of a Rogue Trader dynasty? Could he still inherit the Warrant of Trade?

I feel that on some level space marines must be practical organisations that recognise the value of resources, and they'd do what they could to acquire them.

Judassem
22-10-2015, 10:02
Don't think so. Space Marines are exempt from all laws except the Inquisition's, for better or worse. I think all their property would become the Imperium's. I believe they don't have any rights to inherit anything.

Karhedron
22-10-2015, 10:42
In most chapters, they pretty much sever all ties to their mortal life. Their battle brothers become their only family from that point onward.

The only exception mentioned in the fluff seem to the Salamanders who live among the mortal population of Nocturne when not on active duty, often acting as leaders of settlements.

This is actually a major a difference between the Sallies and other Marines who are far more insular. Even the relatively human-friendly Ultramarines are definitely a breed apart from the human inhabitants of Ultramar. Marines serve humanity but are no longer entirely part of it. I am surprised in some ways that more has not been made of this difference.

MajorWesJanson
22-10-2015, 10:43
Like usual, depends on the chapter. Some recognize their previous lives and family ties, though mainly as an abstraction- Space Wolves, Ultramarines. At the far end is the Grey Knights, who are memory wiped on induction.

Overall, it would be extremely unlikely that a Marine would end up with say a massive estate on a planet or Warrant of Trade. They aren't traders or explorers, and any rulership of territory is through the auspices of the chapter, not by individual titles or lineage.

ChaosTicket
22-10-2015, 23:24
Astartes as far as i know arent considered "human" anymore. Any youths taken to become recruits are effectively dead. They dont have property, inheritance, cant become part of the Imperial Government, etc.

The difference is that chapters are "given" rights to the worlds they govern. On some minor worlds its total control as a savage planet would effectively be just a breeding ground for future Astartes. Major worlds would instead have smaller recruiting stations as the primary purpose would be production of some materials.

Astartes are majorly useful to the Imperium but they dont actually follow the laws.

Razios
23-10-2015, 04:51
At best there is the "honour" of family who have a child taken by the astarte, since a) abstract concept like Honor is something the warrior cast of Marine respect and b) is more follow by imperial world with a strong martcial culture(eg:ultras)

Arthanor
23-10-2015, 18:33
There is a story in Sedition's Gate about an ultramarine captain with quartered heraldry (cream + blue) who chose that to honor his family. He was his father's only son and, with him being chosen as an ultramarine, essentially sealed the fate of his house as he was their only heir (apparently no female heir in that family...).

If there is a chapter that recognizes the value of resources and takes care of its domain, it is the ultramarines, yet they still did not take over the marine's estate and instead let it die. Seems unlikely that other "proper chapters" would take it, but maybe less codex adherents might, since they don't care so much about limiting the power/reach of marines (even though that's kind of a ridiculous statement, the UM have quite a domain..).

The Highlander
23-10-2015, 22:12
More to the point, why would a space marine care about property? The chapter provides them with everything they need, and as a marine any desire for material wealth has been stripped away.

Simultaneously apart from supplies and the occasional relics a chapter has no need for wealth either. They have no use for fancy property or luxuries, and if there is some strategic reason that would make a particular property useful to them then they would just take it (since the chapter would also be the supreme authority on their home world).

TheSaylesMan
23-10-2015, 22:46
as a marine any desire for material wealth has been stripped away.

Where is that little tidbit located I wonder? That seems entirely wrong to me. Wealth IS power. They do have a use for fancy property and luxuries because those assets can be liquidated. You seem to forget that inter-galactic commerce is a thing. There are so many things they could be doing with that wealth that could be making the difference for their Chapter. Importing raw materials to be used to fortify their planet against outer threats, produce more equipment to better prosecute their wars, build infrastructure to better exploit the natural resources of their planet and more. Before anybody goes off about developing their homeworld would devalue the skills of their possible recruits due to a move away from the savage kill-or-be-killed societies that they typically come from, remember how much infrastructure the European powers invested into Africa during the Age of Imperialism to better exploit and export its resources and how little that did to improve the daily lives of the native Africans.

Yes, even the Astartes have reason to want to make money. Assets can be liquidated to do all these things but at the same time they can be invested in to generate a later, greater profit. Seems like a very good reason why Astartes would actively petition for its members to retain property rights because any amount of inheritance would go towards the benefit of the Chapter. Usually the Astartes get what they want too.

librisrouge
23-10-2015, 23:33
I suddenly have the desire to make a DIY chapter based around mercantilism and wealth. Gold, silver, and bronze for colors and only the best gear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ChaosTicket
23-10-2015, 23:56
No, thats seeking wealth when they actually go for all those things to better fight the enemies of the Emperor. The Imperium supplies chapters with various tools, but chapters mostly have to rely on themselves to construct vehicles, weapons, ammunition, fuel, fortresses, and recruit new initiates usually from a single world controlled by the chapter. The Imperium itself doesnt have an actual currency, as everything technically belongs to the Emperor and currency is a local device for barter while the Imperial government instead demands whatever it wants and the only choice planets have is to rebel(which very rarely works).

Chapters can be rewarded or punished by the High lords of the Imperium or they can make pacts with planets, promising aid in exchange for resources.

Astartes are warrior-monks, with the general idea that they dont get luxuries, wealth, or power to corrupt them as it happened in the Horus Heresy. They eat protein paste, live in spartan quarters, and frequently train between missions.

Generally speaking nobody with the capability of inheriting anything would be allowed. A wealthy nobles son would be prevented as that could cut a dynastic line or prove a conflicting interest with the chapter, but even without that astartes look for powerful young child-warriors.

Im sure somebody out there has made some chapter of space Marines with something like a dollar symbol icon and made up of wealthy rich kids.

Lupe
24-10-2015, 10:32
More to the point, why would a space marine care about property? .

Actually, they wouldn't necessarily have to care about property.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that one could possibly end up in a situation where a centuries old marine finds himself last in the line of succession of his noble family, by virtue of having outlived everyone else. Cue the responsibilities and wealth (or debts) of the family being transferred to him. And not only does the Marine not care, he may not even grasp what is expected of him. That could make an interesting scenario :)

Griefbringer
24-10-2015, 17:13
Im sure somebody out there has made some chapter of space Marines with something like a dollar symbol icon and made up of wealthy rich kids.

I recall that back in the 90's there was an article in WD featuring drawings of fan-made marine chapters. One of them was called Moneymakers. I might recall things incorrectly, but I think they did wear silvery grey power armour with black top hat (!) and their chapter insignia was a dollar sign.

insectum7
24-10-2015, 18:06
Where is that little tidbit located I wonder? That seems entirely wrong to me. Wealth IS power. They do have a use for fancy property and luxuries because those assets can be liquidated. You seem to forget that inter-galactic commerce is a thing. There are so many things they could be doing with that wealth that could be making the difference for their Chapter. Importing raw materials to be used to fortify their planet against outer threats, produce more equipment to better prosecute their wars, build infrastructure to better exploit the natural resources of their planet and more. Before anybody goes off about developing their homeworld would devalue the skills of their possible recruits due to a move away from the savage kill-or-be-killed societies that they typically come from, remember how much infrastructure the European powers invested into Africa during the Age of Imperialism to better exploit and export its resources and how little that did to improve the daily lives of the native Africans.

Yes, even the Astartes have reason to want to make money. Assets can be liquidated to do all these things but at the same time they can be invested in to generate a later, greater profit. Seems like a very good reason why Astartes would actively petition for its members to retain property rights because any amount of inheritance would go towards the benefit of the Chapter. Usually the Astartes get what they want too.

The Ultramarines as an example provide for both points.

Individual Ultramarines have little use for personal wealth. All Ultramarines serve the chapter first, and otherwise live very spartan lives. Their ultimate desire is honoring their brotherhood, the chapter. Accruing personal wealth is relatively meaningless to them as individuals.

But the Chapter runs an empire. As an institution the Ultramarines presumably have a tremendous amount of influence over tariffs, merchant laws, and commerce within their space. With that influence they can probably have a great effect on trade outside of their controlled space, by influencing which of their industries trades with which outsiders. For example, they are renown for rebuilding the defenses and ensuring stability for planets that they conquer/liberate, and one of the ways they can help this is by providing guarantees for trade/resupply with Ultramar.

But even so, I doubt the chapter has a giant vault the likes of Scrooge McDuck that is filled with Imperial coin. I think much of their power is derived from reputation and non-monetary agreements, and their ability to govern their own space. They might have a vault of money, but I think it's ultimately far less important than their influence over the institutions they govern.

But that's just one chapter. There is certainly room for chapters which are more concerned with wealth, and room for chapters that follow the creed "Real power flows from the barrel of a gun."

salamandercaptain
25-10-2015, 22:10
If you think citizens of the Empire have any "Rights" you have no idea how grim dark the setting is.

The Older rule books especially the Inquisator rulebook make this Very apparent.

blackcherry
27-10-2015, 15:29
The concept of money and financial power seems very counter intuitive for Space Marines. From the little we have seen, when it comes to matters within the structure the Imperium practices, they usually have a representative there, but they levy their influence over actually wheeling and dealing. And whilst Marines can be known for tact, they tend to be better at implied threats*. After all, a humongous armour plated super human who is just as prepared to wipe out their trading partners over deal with them and will say so is quite an advantage during a negotiation!

I would imagine that whilst there are skilled representatives of the Astartes who are consulted on administrative matters or sign off on large system wide changes, the majority of the actual work is given over to humans that are a part of the chapter's serfs or empire.

In general though, the Imperium has done its best to stop Marines from possessing their own dedicated supply networks and armies outside of the chapter, for fear of the destruction another mass scale rebellion could cause to it. So it's unlikely Marines value possessions at all - they are actually hypnotically indoctrinated to not care and if that starts to slip they get sent to the Chaplin to be sorted out!

Even marines who have rebelled are shown not to really care about possessions, instead using and discarding things with the blink of an eye as long as it allows them to achieve their aims. Marines are essentially juvenile adults that have been told that might equals right, with that being re-inforced throughout their entire lives. Is it any wonder that possessions don't really matter to them?

*See the piece from the third edition Tau codex for an example of what Marines do in diplomatic situations.

bittick
28-10-2015, 15:08
So it's like this (true story). I'm a lawyer. I've got a practice that I'm focused on running. I'm dealing with clients, and working on cases, and speaking with judges. I'm working on motions for a trial coming up (and taking some time, of course, to screw off on Warseer while I do it). And so I get a text message from a friend who I haven't seen in years and years. My 20 year high school reunion is next year, and they want me to help set it up because I was a class officer back in the mid-90s. And I'm like "what?" I don't have the time or the inclination for that, even though I'm in the same city.

Now imagine that it's not your 20 year high school reunion, it's your 60th year kindergarten reunion, and you are a general leading a war in a distant country. And somebody sends you a message and says "Hey, it's me, Sally B. Remember when I used to eat paste, and Mikey R. wet his pants because he couldn't undo his zipper? We are having a reunion for everyone in Mrs Johnson's kindergarten class, and you promised you'd help put it together! By the way, I found your old pencil box and crayons that you left on the rug after naptime on the last day of school. If you want it, you'd better be there!"

=Angel=
30-10-2015, 15:10
Brother Sergeant Inheritus comes back to chapter HQ with the remnants of 4th company after a bloody but successful prosecution. They will need time to recuperate, repair and rearm.

He is summoned to the Chapter master's sanctum and informed that he is the rightful successor to a small nearby confederacy of worlds.
He was recruited following a successful campaign to subdue separatist ambitions.
The succession wars will tear this prosperous and productive area under the chapter's aegis apart unless something is done. Separatist ambitions may even reemerge.

The chapter cannot allow the production of men and munitions for the guard to cease whilst (insert significant timeline event/campaign) grows imminent and so he will travel to the capital as the interim governor while the Administratum finds a solution.

Cue political intrigue and bolter noises, assassination attempts etc.

bittick
30-10-2015, 19:02
Brother Sergeant Inheritus comes back to chapter HQ with the remnants of 4th company after a bloody but successful prosecution. They will need time to recuperate, repair and rearm.

He is summoned to the Chapter master's sanctum and informed that he is the rightful successor to a small nearby confederacy of worlds.
He was recruited following a successful campaign to subdue separatist ambitions.
The succession wars will tear this prosperous and productive area under the chapter's aegis apart unless something is done. Separatist ambitions may even reemerge.

The chapter cannot allow the production of men and munitions for the guard to cease whilst (insert significant timeline event/campaign) grows imminent and so he will travel to the capital as the interim governor while the Administratum finds a solution.

Cue political intrigue and bolter noises, assassination attempts etc.

I don't think communication within the Imperium is fast enough or the bureaucracy efficient enough to even notify him. So a century-plus ago he leaves his homeworld to become a Space Marine. And he goes off into space, taking a new name and fighting great wars. And politics on the homeworld go on and on. So eventually the ruling family line dies off, and some historian is going through old records to figure out who should rule the planet. And various distant nobles are staking claims. The historian sees that some guy in his great grandfather's day was "taken by the Adeptus Astartes". Do you think he's going to be able to track that guy down in time for it to make a difference?

"Hmm... it looks like there was a distant relative, who might be in line for the throne. It looks like he was taken into space to join the Angels of Asskicking. Do we have any idea where they are?"

ChaosTicket
30-10-2015, 23:38
Brother Sergeant Inheritus comes back to chapter HQ with the remnants of 4th company after a bloody but successful prosecution. They will need time to recuperate, repair and rearm.

He is summoned to the Chapter master's sanctum and informed that he is the rightful successor to a small nearby confederacy of worlds.
He was recruited following a successful campaign to subdue separatist ambitions.
The succession wars will tear this prosperous and productive area under the chapter's aegis apart unless something is done. Separatist ambitions may even reemerge.

The chapter cannot allow the production of men and munitions for the guard to cease whilst (insert significant timeline event/campaign) grows imminent and so he will travel to the capital as the interim governor while the Administratum finds a solution.

Cue political intrigue and bolter noises, assassination attempts etc.

That sounds like one of millions of novels, just insert space marine.

Is it really so hard to think Space marines cut off ties to their human lives? After their alterations theyre not human anymore.

=Angel=
31-10-2015, 12:56
The spacewolf novels have Ragnar caught up in lots of political intrigue when he has to serve a tour of duty as bodyguard to a navigator house.
Marine chapters have lots of political alliances, with forgeworlds and so on for resupply. The consuls actually force their marines to participate in planetary politics if they want to be promoted.
There's plenty of opportunity for a chapter to get pulled into political shenanigans, and I'm not even saying they'd be very good at it.
That's where the hook is- these post human warriors who want to deal with problems they can chainsaw to death with their chainsaw swords have to sit at a damn table and listen to puny mortal concerns.

ChaosTicket
31-10-2015, 16:15
The opposite is usually true. Space marines are generally exempt from alot of the politics and other problems of the Imperium to keep them from being ineffective in their primary duty, fighting.
They control their own homeworld, recruiting, and at least some military production. They dont have to worry about who is a planetary governor, who was chosen for High Lord, what the Ecchlessiarchy doing, etc.

That doesnt mean they dont have politics at all. Any time Space marines work together there is always the complication of who is the leader. Generally seniority seems to be in effect as the likes of Lord Dante of the Blood Angels leading the 3rd War for Armageddon, or Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves as leader for the First war.

That instance of sending a bodyguard to Navigators makes sense as everyone needs Navigators to travel. Its just not addressed with other chapters because its a interesting but minor detail. Navigators are rare but powerful and organized into Houses. What does anyone do to get a Navigator? Are they hired out under contracts? do they volunteer their services to the Imperium in exchange for no being wiped out a s mutants?

Razios
01-11-2015, 02:24
Chaosticket is right: Astarte are warrior first and foremost, they dont relie in trade or care about material things, at best they deal with favour and oaths like "I protect you if you give me that" and that is in the best case, most of the time is just "FOR THE EMPEROR GIVE ME THAT!"

In fact there is the implication in the horus heresy novels that some marines resent fighting for a galaxy someone else is going to control and enjoy, specially consider they are more powerfull,long lived and better than those stupid humans so they rebel

=Angel=
01-11-2015, 15:50
Astartes are warriors first and foremost. Nobody is disputing that.
That's rather the point here- is it possible for a marine to become embroiled in politics?
Yes.

However, the Astartes famed independence means that they cannot be forced to engage with planetary politics. They can always tell the parties to feth off.

However, that will depend on the chapter's /officers temperament. Some will view keeping the peace as beneath them, some will see their role as protectors of the common man oblige them to intervene to save lives, some will be concerned with the wider strategic situation of the Imperium-productivity and faithfulness etc.

As such some Chapter Masters will see the value in an intervention on a temporary basis.
Note that the individual Astartes in question need not.

ChaosTicket
01-11-2015, 18:30
Astartes engaging in politics is generally a good reason to excommunicate them.

Lord Damocles
01-11-2015, 20:22
Astartes engaging in politics is generally a good reason to excommunicate them.
That would explain why the White Consuls had the custodianship of the Boros Gate taken from them and were then sanctioned by the Inquisition.

Wait... no...

=Angel=
01-11-2015, 20:48
That would explain why the White Consuls had the custodianship of the Boros Gate taken from them and were then sanctioned by the Inquisition.

Wait... no...

Right. A codex chapter whose officers must participate in mortal affairs before advancing.

And Uriel Ventris, assigned to guard an administratiumn adept en route to censure a planetary governor for non payment of tithes.

Razios
02-11-2015, 04:48
Yeah but that it...to guard, not participate, almost all the stuff happen thanks to the inquisitor there.

Also another good example would be Hugh or whatever the wrap is call the leader of the red corsair, he created is own empire and you see how that turn out

=Angel=
02-11-2015, 06:46
Yeah but that it...to guard, not participate, almost all the stuff happen thanks to the inquisitor there.

Also another good example would be Hugh or whatever the wrap is call the leader of the red corsair, he created is own empire and you see how that turn out
Guarding a tax collector, on a world that is not part of the Ultramarine domain.
Politics.

Huron did get involved in politics, but his crime was disobedience and seperatism. He was forging political and brotherly ties between chapters with common cause- policing the maelstrom. That was fine.
When he set himself up as defacto governor that was less fine, but still no cause for alarm.
When he began to withhold tithes of geneseed and materiel from the Imperium. That was the cause.
His goal may have been noble, he wanted to fortify the maelstrom zone against attack.
But not giving your dues to the Imperium is rebellion.

Most chapters exercise lordship over at least one world.
Getting involved in the affairs of other worlds is just a natural consequence of flying around the galaxy kicking ass.

RunepriestRidcully
02-11-2015, 23:43
That is one thing I have wondered, as aspirants are taken just after the onset of puberty/likely before they breed, how on earth have the genes that make specimans physical enough to be made astartes survived, especially on worlds like Fenris and Maccragge? How has the removal of the fittest from the gene pool not make the populations of astartes homeworlds entirely made up of those unsuitible to be recruits?

ChaosTicket
03-11-2015, 00:41
That is one thing I have wondered, as aspirants are taken just after the onset of puberty/likely before they breed, how on earth have the genes that make specimans physical enough to be made astartes survived, especially on worlds like Fenris and Maccragge? How has the removal of the fittest from the gene pool not make the populations of astartes homeworlds entirely made up of those unsuitible to be recruits?

Not everyone on a space marine chapter world aspire to be space marines, take the tests, or die trying. Some of the more prosperous worlds have millions or billions of humans making a few taken per year nothing. Space marines wouldnt conscript everyone on the planet as then they would have no population to do anything in the next generation. Eugenics is a theory that breeding can change attributes. Its proven that even with "good breeding" there are always undesirable traits that can appear so you cannot breed ‹bermensch.

But yeah its a good point that pre-pubescent children are taken to be space marines, so this entire idea of them fathering children beforehand is moot.

Razios
03-11-2015, 02:46
Guarding a tax collector, on a world that is not part of the Ultramarine domain.
Politics.

Huron did get involved in politics, but his crime was disobedience and seperatism. He was forging political and brotherly ties between chapters with common cause- policing the maelstrom. That was fine.
When he set himself up as defacto governor that was less fine, but still no cause for alarm.
When he began to withhold tithes of geneseed and materiel from the Imperium. That was the cause.
His goal may have been noble, he wanted to fortify the maelstrom zone against attack.
But not giving your dues to the Imperium is rebellion.

Most chapters exercise lordship over at least one world.
Getting involved in the affairs of other worlds is just a natural consequence of flying around the galaxy kicking ass.

Its politics? yes but barely, is very rought so far and Uriel dosent have any idea of what is happen and dosent make any real progress, letting the inquisitor do the work, Marine can be prt of politics but they are warriors so they do porly

And Huron case is how chapter get to invold in Politics, while Space marines take lordship they care very little in the day to day in their worlds at least i get in the way of making got recruit, is that simple.

=Angel=
03-11-2015, 14:41
Its politics? yes but barely, is very rought so far and Uriel dosent have any idea of what is happen and dosent make any real progress, letting the inquisitor do the work, Marine can be prt of politics but they are warriors so they do porly

And Huron case is how chapter get to invold in Politics, while Space marines take lordship they care very little in the day to day in their worlds at least i get in the way of making got recruit, is that simple.

I am in agreement with you sir.
Space Marines are generally rubbish at politics.
There are exceptions but in the main they are warriors.

That's why I think they are so prime for fish out of water scenarios where they have to mix with other branches of the Imperium.
There's that one story in the first Tau codex where a dignitary made the questionable choice to bring an Imperial Fist captain to a diplomatic meeting with a Tau ambassador.
222054

TheKillerCoyote
03-11-2015, 15:26
Honestly, I feel it all boils down to the individual character and teachings of the chapter.
After all, there are few who would debate that the Ultramines, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves are worlds apart in terms of worldview.
For example, the Dark Angels and Black Templars, being of a more religious bent, probably have no care whatsoever for politics or personal possessions besides martial gear and simple necessities (a few religious tomes and a candle to read by). Their view of politics doubtlessly falls into the "We are the Emperor's Hand, and all that refuse us are his enemy" camp. They don't negotiate, they just show up, solve the problem, and execute anyone incompetent or heretical.
By contrast, the Space Wolves. The Sons of Russ operate outside the Imperium, to the point where they are in regular conflict with the Inquisition. However, most of that stems from the gross mistreatment of civilians, and due to that conflict, it seems likely that they act as a defacto government on their homeworld, perhaps with those not currently engaged in glorious battle serving minor duties as judges in disputes between tribes and factions. It's not hard to see them keeping some trophies and personal reminders of good times.
As for the Ultramarines- as previously pointed out, they basically run a second, smaller empire within the Imperium. That said, I feel that they simply act as an ultimate authority that steps in only when those they delegate to fail in their duties.

Kieras
03-11-2015, 18:00
Adeptus Astartes are given sometimes arbitrary stewardship over system or a planet but never for their own straightforward gain in person.Thus for a Marine is impossible to get hold of actual riches or political status outside of chapter functions.They exist purely to enact Emprahs will not to make themselves rich and powerful.This was definitely ensured after Heresy and Badaab wars partially due to the indoctrination proces and such during making of a marine from a human candidate.As warriors they are known though to collect throphies and artifacts like weaponry vide White Scars-as long as they are not tainted by Chaos they are allowed to keep them.But fortune in gold?No-no to me.Astartes have higher morals than petty humans.

MajorWesJanson
03-11-2015, 21:37
The only real personal possessions a Marine have are the wargear that is issued to them and occasionally (more common in some chapters) trophies taken in battle.

insectum7
04-11-2015, 17:02
Astartes engaging in politics is generally a good reason to excommunicate them.

Robute Guilliman was one of the first High Lords of Terra.

ChaosTicket
06-11-2015, 00:03
Robute Guilliman was one of the first High Lords of Terra.

Robute Guilliman is a Mary Sue perfect character who had the largest Legion, perfect strategies, the best homeworld with its own empire, most Successor chapters, etc.

The High Lords represent every (human) organization such as the Imperial Guard, Ecclessiarchy, Assassins, etc. Why a non-human organization which is only barely involved with other organizations would be there would be beyond me. Its a serious question as whatever chapter master there would be unable to actually lead their chapter.

=Angel=
10-11-2015, 09:31
Thus for a Marine is impossible to get hold of actual riches or political status outside of chapter functions.They exist purely to enact Emprahs will not to make themselves rich and powerful.......
.....Astartes have higher morals than petty humans.

You, you're kidding right? Astartes aren't white knights. They aren't an extension of the Emperor's will. they aren't more moral than anyone else.

Astartes chapters are largely independent military organisations filled with mentally conditioned child supersoldiers. They are boys taken from their homes, who fight in a hungergames scenario for the right to be surgically altered and 'hypno indoctrinated' ( a love child of hypnosis/ religious brainwashing and that scene from the matrix where they upload fighting styles 'I know kung fu')

Then raised by an all male supersoldier cadre with age old traditions and ideals of combat that REDUCE their battlefield efficiency 'Camouflage is the colour of cowardice'

And above all being told that they are now superior to the mortals that they are nominally supposed to protect/defend.

This leads to attitudes like the Marines Malevolent- shelling refugee camps which were under Ork attack.

Chapter dogma and tradition keep a Space Marine so busy training and working that he doesn't have time to reflect on his situation. As soon as they get squad command or isolated from the chaplains they may have time to think about what they really want.

At this point, that'll be mostly glory and power to crush the enemies of humanity, but they may covet positions of power and influence within the chapter, envy the carte-blanche of the inquisition or the wealth of the rogue traders.
Once they've been deployed a few times, they'll see what riches can buy- starships of greater power than the chapter possesses, weapons that scythe through power armour, advanced materials and technologies that could help the chapter.
They'll see these weapons used by allies they fight alongside or watch foes use them to cut down their brothers.

The same justifications that lead some marines to experiment with xenotech, proscribed technologies, even daemon weapons can and has lead marines to seek greater wealth or station within the Imperium.

And unlike a librarian summoning daemons or a chapter forge melting down their land-speeders to make helldrakes its a lot less obvious because they don't sprout horns and they don't laugh any more maniacally than usual.

Such a situation can even be beneficial to the Imperium, or at least the sector the marines guard.
When the Ultramarines ordered the construction of a true battleship in flagrant breach of the spirit of the codex astartes, no one batted an eyelid.

ChaosTicket
10-11-2015, 19:54
First what does any of that have to do with property rights?

Two, the Imperium is a socialist society. Its not like space marines could buy a battleship with the non-existent Imperial Currency. They would have to construct their own ships, and barter for materials to do that.

Third If you ever played Battlefleet Gothic, you would know that Space marine chapters actually have their own fleets. Their fleets are normally dispersed as Strike Cruisers taxi and support companies, while Battleships provide heavy firepower and a mobile staging point for major planetary assaults, and not all chapters have a significant fleet presence.

insectum7
10-11-2015, 20:10
Two, the Imperium is a socialist society.

According to what?

ChaosTicket
10-11-2015, 23:17
The Imperium is controlled by the High Lords of Terra and different tiers of bureaucracy. All materials technically belong to the Emperor and the High lords act as his regents. The High lords have unlimited authority, and it is in their name that basically everything operates. they can and do whatever they want and that is how everything moves. Planets are required to provide materials that the Imperium will distribute as needed(or not because of bureaucratic errors).

Local powers however run by trying to profit, such as bartering materials that the Imperium, but ultimately their are servants to higher powers. Some planets have tyrants, others try a senate, or corporate lords and the Imperium doesnt care too much about low level problems only that the spices flow....errr i mean materials.

The Administratum is the main bureaucracy controlling many things in the Imperium

Basically the Imperium runs on the basis of "do what we say or die".

insectum7
11-11-2015, 03:29
Local powers however run by trying to profit,

Right. Even if the Imperial administratum only requires material tithes, the rest of the the economy is pretty much anything goes. A far cry from socialism. Merchant ships are merchant ships, trading routes are trading routes, and ships/land/etc. are things to buy with city/state/national/system/sector/imperial coin. Materialistic opportunities aplenty.

Freak Ona Leash
11-11-2015, 03:54
First what does any of that have to do with property rights?

Two, the Imperium is a socialist society. Its not like space marines could buy a battleship with the non-existent Imperial Currency. They would have to construct their own ships, and barter for materials to do that.

Third If you ever played Battlefleet Gothic, you would know that Space marine chapters actually have their own fleets. Their fleets are normally dispersed as Strike Cruisers taxi and support companies, while Battleships provide heavy firepower and a mobile staging point for major planetary assaults, and not all chapters have a significant fleet presence.

The Imperium isn't socialist. Money exists. Not that those two have much to do with one another anyways.

ChaosTicket
11-11-2015, 09:15
Sigh, I dont want to get into an argument over the differences between socialist, communist, and capitalist. If you dont agree, whatever.

Your disagreement doesnt chapter the 40k setting, but if you can explain the economic and political system of the Imperium maybe you should open up a different thread about how it works.

=Angel=
11-11-2015, 16:44
First what does any of that have to do with property rights?


The context is provided in the quote. The argument was being made that marines are somehow more moral than unaltered humans and that they exist only as extensions of the Emperors will and have no goals beyond killing the next traitor or xeno they find.



Two, the Imperium is a socialist society. Its not like space marines could buy a battleship with the non-existent Imperial Currency. They would have to construct their own ships, and barter for materials to do that.

Its absolutely like that. Money can be exchanged for goods or services. Imperial thrones are general currency within the Imperium. And local currencies do exist. If you are rich enough you can buy your own battleship, I assure you.



Third If you ever played Battlefleet Gothic, you would know that Space marine chapters actually have their own fleets. Their fleets are normally dispersed as Strike Cruisers taxi and support companies, while Battleships provide heavy firepower and a mobile staging point for major planetary assaults, and not all chapters have a significant fleet presence.

I do play Gothic. And you'll note that marine ships are limited in what they can do, seeing as they are only supposed to support the boarding/landing actions of the Astartes with a bit of patrol thrown in. Every capital ship is a carrier, no dedicated warships armed only to fight other ships beyond the escorts, which they are permitted to have for patrol.
The exception of course being the Ultramarine battle barge that is kitted out with long range lances as a battleship, not a carrier, in flagrant breach of the whole breakup of legions.

Which is to say, if a chapter is rich and powerful enough, it can do whatever it wants and seriously stretch the letter of the laws that are supposed to reduce marine chapters to strike forces, not Navies.

Razios
11-11-2015, 18:40
Which is to say, if a chapter is rich and powerful enough, it can do whatever it wants and seriously stretch the letter of the laws that are supposed to reduce marine chapters to strike forces, not Navies..

Until they draw inquisition atention for some reason, THEM money is pretty worthless.

Money serve in system or some planets but at big level it dosent matter since the imperium just demand whatever it wants and nobody can comply that is why at highest level are deal with political favour since money become redundant and useless

Also when we said marine have no other goals is because the imperium make very sure about that, the space marine are created to fight emperor name and that it, everything is destinty to that exact goal and everything else is wasting time.

ChaosTicket
11-11-2015, 19:41
Until they draw inquisition atention for some reason, THEM money is pretty worthless.

Money serve in system or some planets but at big level it dosent matter since the imperium just demand whatever it wants and nobody can comply that is why at highest level are deal with political favour since money become redundant and useless

Also when we said marine have no other goals is because the imperium make very sure about that, the space marine are created to fight emperor name and that it, everything is destinty to that exact goal and everything else is wasting time.

This the basic point being looped again and again. The Imperium owneverything within its borders. It demand things and you comply or die, after all you are replaceable.

Space marines have certain allowances, some more than others. The Astral Claws pushed those far, caused the Badab War and are now excommunicate traitoris living in the Maelstrom as the Red Corsairs. So if space marines start stealing or interfering in the Imperium at large by doing things like becoming self-declared Planetary Governors even if its through some obscure bloodline inheritance, theyll will be sanctioned if not just exterminated as renegades.

I would like to think there are some kind of security features within the space marines coda that prevents that. I suggested earlier that space marines give up their pre-astartes identity, and its stated in alot of background that they generally live an ascetic or spartan livestyle. Some go even more extreme by having fasts or other tests for their resolve against temptation.

Major Richard Sharpe
11-11-2015, 19:45
Speaking as a Political Studies Major, it is MY OPINION that the Imperium would be classified either as a Despotic Feudal Theocracy OR a Oligarchic Theocratic Capitalist Junta. Also, space marine fleets in BFG are significant. But comparatively neutered in comparison to regular Imperial fleets.

BobBell
12-11-2015, 08:32
I started this because I was thinking about the staggering amount of resources (Food, weapons, vehicles, medical supplies, fuel, ammunition, spare parts etc etc) a Space Marine Chapter would require to stay active and effective, and as far as I am aware the Chapters are autonomous and do not receive direct supplies from any branch of the Adeptus Terra.

Some of these resources would be provided by direct tithes on their homeworlds, but it would be a rare space marine chapter that could provide everything it needs from this source (the Ultramarines undoubtedly can, but what about Chapters from barren or feral homeworlds?)

Some resources could be acquired by agreements with other imperial organisations like the Adeptus Mechanicus, but these come with obligations that some Chapter commanders might prefer to avoid.

In any case, I think that Chapter Commanders would need to be skilled bureaucrats and administrators as well as war leaders (much like real world Generals and Admirals), or at least have a senior staff of marines or human vassals who are. Itís all very well being able to cleave 10 orks in twain with a mighty swing of your powersword, but if your marines arrive at a battle lacking food, ammunition or self-sealing stenbolts, the war will be lost.

Given this I think Commanders would be prepared to acquire resources from wherever they could, including the probably very rare situation where a marine comes into a legal inheritance (inheritance certainly does exist in the Imperium, hence the noble families). Iím not suggesting the marine would go off to live in luxury but that the Chapter would retain or dispose of the inheritance as the Commander sees fit for the benefit of the Chapter.

As an aside, I was thinking about this as I want to include a small marine detachment in my Rogue Trader retinue, and wanted a reasonable explanation for why they are there. In my personal fluff the Chapter provides a company to the Rogue Trader, and in return the Rogue Trader shares 20% of his acquisitions with the Chapter.

Major Richard Sharpe
12-11-2015, 09:11
I started this because I was thinking about the staggering amount of resources (Food, weapons, vehicles, medical supplies, fuel, ammunition, spare parts etc etc) a Space Marine Chapter would require to stay active and effective, and as far as I am aware the Chapters are autonomous and do not receive direct supplies from any branch of the Adeptus Terra.

Some of these resources would be provided by direct tithes on their homeworlds, but it would be a rare space marine chapter that could provide everything it needs from this source (the Ultramarines undoubtedly can, but what about Chapters from barren or feral homeworlds?)

Some resources could be acquired by agreements with other imperial organisations like the Adeptus Mechanicus, but these come with obligations that some Chapter commanders might prefer to avoid.

In any case, I think that Chapter Commanders would need to be skilled bureaucrats and administrators as well as war leaders (much like real world Generals and Admirals), or at least have a senior staff of marines or human vassals who are. It’s all very well being able to cleave 10 orks in twain with a mighty swing of your powersword, but if your marines arrive at a battle lacking food, ammunition or self-sealing stenbolts, the war will be lost.

Given this I think Commanders would be prepared to acquire resources from wherever they could, including the probably very rare situation where a marine comes into a legal inheritance (inheritance certainly does exist in the Imperium, hence the noble families). I’m not suggesting the marine would go off to live in luxury but that the Chapter would retain or dispose of the inheritance as the Commander sees fit for the benefit of the Chapter.

As an aside, I was thinking about this as I want to include a small marine detachment in my Rogue Trader retinue, and wanted a reasonable explanation for why they are there. In my personal fluff the Chapter provides a company to the Rogue Trader, and in return the Rogue Trader shares 20% of his acquisitions with the Chapter.

With regard to the rogue trader thing. Go for it, there is a precedent, the Marines Errant frequently attach entire companies to rogue trader expeditions. I think there are also fluff examples of marines claiming relics and war material recovered while on those expeditions as well. As for your earlier points, one of the space marine captain roles is 'Chief Victualler', which presumably is a quarter master responsibility. Logically, he must attain materials somehow, and that probably involves either domestic production or external acquisition.

Matthueycamo
15-11-2015, 16:24
Interesting thread, often browsed as a guest but this got me to sign up...

I think that being conditioned not to desire wealth is not the same as not recognising it's a tool they can use to further their aims. They don't have to desire it to recognise having wealth can help achieve things. On a practical level why would those chapters with a homeworld that they actively govern not take control other the inheritance of a Brother. Individuals won't inherit but like such medieval organisations I have always thought for some chapters it makes sense that Brothers give all possessions to the chapter and so they would with any inheritance. The Imperium has currencies, not one uniting currency but planets/systems etc have their own and as we know from the modern world in such a situation it's virtually impossible to isolate yourself from needing at least some money.

So I would say no the individual Brothers don't retain those rights and then it depends on the chapter, some that right would probably logically be transferred to the chapter whilst for some especially fleet based chapters it's mostly irrelevant since they are for obvious reasons very very unlikely to regularly return to the plants all their brothers came from to sort things like that out.

I also read somebody bizarrely said the Imperium was socialist. It's about as far from socialism as it's possible to be. Socialism is where the workers democratically own the means of production I don't think the Administratum would take too kindly to a group of workers demanding they own the factories. I'm pretty sure they would crush them and kill most of them for rebellion. Half the economy is the hands of the state and the other half is controlled by trading houses, corporations, nobility etc in a manner that would make the Victorians throw up if they saw how barbarically 90% of the workers are treated. Pure laissez-faire capitalism. Workers rights are pretty much non-existent in either sector let alone the workers controlling the means of production. In that situation whilst you may not desire wealth it's undoubtedly useful to be able to bribe people to get the best equipment sent to you or to buy things you can't requisition from Imperial stores or from your homewold or home system if you have one.

ChaosTicket
15-11-2015, 17:44
There are several kinds of Socialism. The theoretical kind of the "worker's community" where everyone is equal and works towards a greater good. The real world usage of Socialism is the government controlling high level economics is in between Communist where the government controls all levels of economics, and Capitalism where the government leaves economics up to private enterprises.

The Imperium controls how each planet is setup at the highest levels so every planet has a Planetary Governor and is some use for the Imperium as a whole from equipment fabrication, natural resources, personnel, strategic location, etc. The Imperium always has the Lion's Share of anything useful from worlds with few exceptions such as Space Marine Homeworlds or the independent Adeptus Mechanicus Forgeworlds.
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There are logical reasons why Space Marines cannot do certain things. They are an elite force of soldiers, but they they do not have unlimited power. They have less restictions that say the Imperial Guard, but they also lack certain powers. Imperial Guard are completely dependent on a system of bureaucracy for recruitment, training, equipment, transportation, logistics, planning, etc. usually controlled by separate branches of the Imperium and often divided on separate planets. SpaceMarines on the other hand have their own combined organization as they are responsible for recruiting, training, equipping, and transporting.

There are checks and balances to keep them from abusing their independence to do things such as interfering with the rest of the Imperium. Its not 100% successful as some rules are hazy and some chapters have done so such as the Astral Claws.

You would need to be highly specific about situation they can or cannot do. The situation mentioned above of a Rogue Trader having a bodyguard of Space Marines isnt impossible. There several simple reasons from business agreements, military expeditions, ancient oaths, and so on.

When you talking about a space marine claiming to be a distant decedent to basically rob a planet of something, you would need a really good reason as generally speaking anything privately owned wouldnt be worthwhile to a space marine and those checks and balances would prevent any space marine from abusing its power or loopholes.

Major Richard Sharpe
15-11-2015, 22:43
There are several kinds of Socialism. The theoretical kind of the "worker's community" where everyone is equal and works towards a greater good. The real world usage of Socialism is the government controlling high level economics is in between Communist where the government controls all levels of economics, and Capitalism where the government leaves economics up to private enterprises.

The Imperium controls how each planet is setup at the highest levels so every planet has a Planetary Governor and is some use for the Imperium as a whole from equipment fabrication, natural resources, personnel, strategic location, etc. The Imperium always has the Lion's Share of anything useful from worlds with few exceptions such as Space Marine Homeworlds or the independent Adeptus Mechanicus Forgeworlds.
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There are logical reasons why Space Marines cannot do certain things. They are an elite force of soldiers, but they they do not have unlimited power. They have less restictions that say the Imperial Guard, but they also lack certain powers. Imperial Guard are completely dependent on a system of bureaucracy for recruitment, training, equipment, transportation, logistics, planning, etc. usually controlled by separate branches of the Imperium and often divided on separate planets. SpaceMarines on the other hand have their own combined organization as they are responsible for recruiting, training, equipping, and transporting.

There are checks and balances to keep them from abusing their independence to do things such as interfering with the rest of the Imperium. Its not 100% successful as some rules are hazy and some chapters have done so such as the Astral Claws.

You would need to be highly specific about situation they can or cannot do. The situation mentioned above of a Rogue Trader having a bodyguard of Space Marines isnt impossible. There several simple reasons from business agreements, military expeditions, ancient oaths, and so on.

When you talking about a space marine claiming to be a distant decedent to basically rob a planet of something, you would need a really good reason as generally speaking anything privately owned wouldnt be worthwhile to a space marine and those checks and balances would prevent any space marine from abusing its power or loopholes.

I don't know how things are done in your land. But in mine what you are describing would be considered state syndicatism or fascism.

bittick
17-11-2015, 19:29
The Imperium doesn't follow any real, modern political or economic philosophy. It is fascist when the story calls for it, communist when the story calls for it, cutthroat capitalist when the story calls for it. It's a big, neo-gothic, pseudo-feudal, parody of an empire. Trying to apply real world standards won't work, because it's purposefully over-the-top. It's designed to be laughably backwards and complex.

ChaosTicket
17-11-2015, 20:23
The problem with satire is that it creates a situation where something like a corrupt system is actually needed. Judge Dredd is a long running comic series about a post-apocalyptic world where the Police rule the remaining people as Judge Jury and executioner. It paints a very detailed picture of how the world came to need them.

Warhammer 40,000 is similar in the the current setting makes the fascist Imperium of man actually needed. Why is the Emperor the only god approved? Because every other God could be a Chaos God guise. Why are millions of soldiers recruited often? Because the galaxy needs a massive fighting force to fight of the not-nice aliens that want to conquer, kill, or consume humans.
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But, that isnt the point. Space marines dont get paid. Imperial Guard dont either. Guardsmen can get rations of non-essential items like alchohol or recreational drugs, but its not like they go buy a Hellgun from a store. Individual worlds have forms of currency for barter, but ultimately their main products are for the Imperium. There are different kinds of organizations on different worlds. Some worlds are primitive with savage humans hoping to serve the God-Emperor in some way possible as future space marines, or working for resources they may not even understand. Others are like feudal serfs in that people are born to work for powerful nobles to farm, mine, manufacture goods, train to be soldiers, etc.

So how could space marines *buy* anything? There are Imperial laws preventing them becoming nobles outside their respective homeworlds.

Bottom line, Space Marines can receive gifts and make agreements for things like mineral resources, but there are few if any Space marines doing a Return of the King/King Arthur imitations.

Major Richard Sharpe
17-11-2015, 20:50
The problem with satire is that it creates a situation where something like a corrupt system is actually needed. Judge Dredd is a long running comic series about a post-apocalyptic world where the Police rule the remaining people as Judge Jury and executioner. It paints a very detailed picture of how the world came to need them.

Warhammer 40,000 is similar in the the current setting makes the fascist Imperium of man actually needed. Why is the Emperor the only god approved? Because every other God could be a Chaos God guise. Why are millions of soldiers recruited often? Because the galaxy needs a massive fighting force to fight of the not-nice aliens that want to conquer, kill, or consume humans.
==============================
But, that isnt the point. Space marines dont get paid. Imperial Guard dont either. Guardsmen can get rations of non-essential items like alchohol or recreational drugs, but its not like they go buy a Hellgun from a store. Individual worlds have forms of currency for barter, but ultimately their main products are for the Imperium. There are different kinds of organizations on different worlds. Some worlds are primitive with savage humans hoping to serve the God-Emperor in some way possible as future space marines, or working for resources they may not even understand. Others are like feudal serfs in that people are born to work for powerful nobles to farm, mine, manufacture goods, train to be soldiers, etc.

So how could space marines *buy* anything? There are Imperial laws preventing them becoming nobles outside their respective homeworlds.

Bottom line, Space Marines can receive gifts and make agreements for things like mineral resources, but there are few if any Space marines doing a Return of the King/King Arthur imitations.

Guardsmen do get paid. There are frequent references to guardsmen throwing money away at brothels or gambling dens. There are frequent depictions of Officers eating at restaurants or going to recreational facilities like Cinemas and theatre. Heck, even Imperial Commissars get paid. However, Space Marines do NOT get paid.

ChaosTicket
17-11-2015, 23:17
Ok, what is the galactic currency? Dont say Imperial Credits, because that is from Star wars. I have read alot of 40k novels in particular ones about humans, and I have never read anything about actual money. Necromunda and the Gaunt's Ghost novel Necropolis have "guilder credits" as a local currency. Alot of panets have some form of barter to keep things running at the lower levels.

Have you ever been payed with bonuses, tickets, tokens or non-currency? Back 100-130years ago in the United States of America the companies rather than pay their employees with US Dollars gave them company credits to spend on the the companies stores while the workers lived in company owned buildings.
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While discussing the Imperium's economy is interesting, thats not the point. The point is that there there would be checks to keep space marines from inheriting any kind titles outside of a space marines duties. You really dont want to see King [blank] of the [blank] Chapter trying to take over like Horus did.

See that I say that makes me think somebody actually made a fanfic of a space marine as a king.

ChaosTicket
17-11-2015, 23:21
A rogue trade would be able to inherit a warrant of trade as far as I know. You can buy it, sell it, gamble on it, whatever.

Major Richard Sharpe
17-11-2015, 23:31
Ok, what is the galactic currency? Dont say Imperial Credits, because that is from Star wars. I have read alot of 40k novels in particular ones about humans, and I have never read anything about actual money. Necromunda and the Gaunt's Ghost novel Necropolis have "guilder credits" as a local currency. Alot of panets have some form of barter to keep things running at the lower levels.

Have you ever been payed with bonuses, tickets, tokens or non-currency? Back 100-130years ago in the United States of America the companies rather than pay their employees with US Dollars gave them company credits to spend on the the companies stores while the workers lived in company owned buildings.
=======================
While discussing the Imperium's economy is interesting, thats not the point. The point is that there there would be checks to keep space marines from inheriting any kind titles outside of a space marines duties. You really dont want to see King [blank] of the [blank] Chapter trying to take over like Horus did.

See that I say that makes me think somebody actually made a fanfic of a space marine as a king.

Throne Gelt. But its a standard currency in the same way the modern earth uses a gold standard. So there would be a unbelievably complicated exchange rate. And yes, I personally, have been paid before in "Bonuses, tickets, tokens or non-currency". You are also forgetting how the Crimson Fists maintain significant control over trade and industrial production on their home planet, or how the white consuls personally take control over the economic and military development of their homeplanet, or heck, how the Ultramarines manage their own internal empire by taking a direct hand in governance and economic production.

ChaosTicket
18-11-2015, 05:40
There is a big difference between space marines managing their homeworlds and managing other worlds they have no authority over. Space Marines worlds are independent as their main resource is producing more space marines and there may not be a Planetary Governor, but the Chapter Master or a Brother-captain would command.

Matthueycamo
19-11-2015, 05:07
There are Imperial laws stopping them using the Demon weapons, Didn't stop the Fire Claws did it? If having a law was all that was needed to prevent people from doing things there would never be any crime.

Space marines are not infallible, if they can fall to chaos or are capable of deciding to use demon weapons among other things it's much less along the scale of law breaking to appropriate the inheritance of a Brother. If indeed it is an imperial law, I have never seen it written and clearly they aren't prevented from ruling worlds and owning massive fortresses on said world. An estate or private possessions of a single Brother is nothing compared to either of those two.

I don't think anybody has suggested they would inherit titles, a title and land does not have to come together. They can often be separated.

ChaosTicket
20-11-2015, 01:55
Um yes the chapters like the Relictors that used daemon weapons were excommunicated. Others like the Astral Claws that hijacked resources were also excommunicated. Others may have religious rights that are too far away from the usual secular or monotheistic worship of the God-Emperor. Mutation is a common one that the Space Wolves only bypass because theyre too effective and venerable, but ones like the Black Dragons are always skirting the line of being destroyed as mutants.

There are plenty of reasons why chapters can be excommunicated. Theyre often times common sense rules as games-workshop doesnt publish concrete evidence like "Space Marines for Dummies" or "Chicken Soup for the Heretic Soul(or lack thereof)"

Tastyfish
28-11-2015, 20:29
Imperium is feudal arrangement of worlds, a type of government that pre-dates capitalism and socialism. What matters is who owns certain inheritable rights granted by the crown, money exists for certain but those who have the most political power don't have it because they are the richest - and the type of money an individual may have could have nothing to do with how the Administratum determines value, because they only care about worlds.

Planetary Governors owe fealty to the sector Administratum control, and are required to provide resources and military aid when called upon, as well as also enacting various laws when pushed. Outside of the Governor's throne, the Imperium doesn't get directly involved - Guardsman aren't paid by the Imperium, their wages are handled by their liege and their requirements by the Munitorum. Might be conscripted slaves, well paid in percent Thrones, a share of booty and land rights on colonisation, or in some kind of company script.

Chapters might allow some leeway in allowing marines to keep some attachments to their old lives, but seems for the most part they are taking on a new identity upon their initiation with only a few exceptions like the Salamanders maintaining a connection to their old lives.

Leftenant Gashrog
30-11-2015, 01:53
Others like the Astral Claws that hijacked resources were also excommunicated.

Yes and no. According to Forge World's write-up the trade dispute between the Claws and the Kathargo Sector had languished in the Imperial courts for a century because the Claws did have the right to withhold (mundane) resources, the Astral Claws were excommunicated once the Inquisition found out the *other* stuff they'd been up to (The Inquisition also executed the Kathargo Sector Government for starting the war in the first place).