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ObiWayneKenobi
25-10-2015, 13:09
A friend of mine who I played Warmachine (my current game of choice) with told me he's getting out of Warmachine and is looking at picking up 40k again. I've been a bit... disenfranchised with Warmachine lately (due to the community I play in being extremely laid back and casual) and I've considered picking up 40k again but usually get disgusted at the price and/or the complete lack of balance and abandon the idea even though I could reasonably spend $100-150 a month on it and have no problem at all.

I told him I'd consider it and I've started looking at a few ideas, but overall is 7th still a clusterf* of spamming flyers and superheavies and having to negotiate with your opponent before a game to make sure that neither of you bring something "overpowered" to the table? I know of at least two shops in a decent area but haven't seen what the 40k communities are like there, but I also know that 40k is usually a poor choice for "show up at the game shop" pick up games. If my friend plays though I'm thinking the two of us can do a narrative campaign or something and get away from some of those issues that arise.

My other issue is deciding what to play.. my friend said he was interested in Eldar, so I'm thinking of something that would mesh well in games against them and fit the idea for a narrative campaign. I'm probably thinking either Space Marines (a Crusade to cleanse some Xenos filth from a sector?) or Tau (not sure what would bring Tau and Eldar into confrontation, they seem like they'd be more likely to be friends than enemies, but maybe they come to blows over territory a la Britan and France historically?). I know Tau are coming out with new things now, but part of my own internal restriction if I ever decided to play 40k again would be to make sure I have a good range of plastics to build an army, and I know that Marines have always been spoiled with what's basically first dibs on anything.

The big thing for me in considering 40k again has been the direction the game seems to be going, probably because I played it during 2nd and 3rd edition when it was much more balanced and felt like a better game, and have slowly seen GW throw balance and even caring out the window in favor of just pushing "plastic crack" and that has me worried about if I'd actually enjoy playing a game that amounts to who can roll the most dice.

A.T.
25-10-2015, 13:47
...but overall is 7th still a clusterf* of spamming flyers and superheavies and having to negotiate with your opponent before a game to make sure that neither of you bring something "overpowered" to the table?Yes.

Though it is more apparent when you play the haves vs the have nots. The big 7e books all bring their own cheese so games could go either way, but they can lord over the 'lesser' books at times.

An example would be the marine battle company - not even particularly bad by 7e standards but 1000pts of marines in transports would net you an army identical in numbers and weaponry to a 1500pt sororitas force and superior in every single way. Formations have really pushed the power levels up.

ObiWayneKenobi
25-10-2015, 13:49
Yes.

Though it is more apparent when you play the haves vs the have nots. The big 7e books all bring their own cheese so games could go either way, but they can lord over the 'lesser' books at times.

An example would be the marine battle company - not even particularly bad by 7e standards but 1000pts of marines in transports would net you an army identical in numbers and weaponry to a 1500pt sororitas force and superior in every single way. Formations have really pushed the power levels up.

I still don't quite understand the detachment/formation stuff, I get the basic idea (take certain units in certain amounts, get bonuses) though. So it still sounds like it would be a poor fit for showing up to play at a game shop where I have no idea who will turn up for a game, but might not be that bad if I had a buddy playing too.

deathrain-commander
25-10-2015, 14:41
I still don't quite understand the detachment/formation stuff, I get the basic idea (take certain units in certain amounts, get bonuses) though. So it still sounds like it would be a poor fit for showing up to play at a game shop where I have no idea who will turn up for a game, but might not be that bad if I had a buddy playing too.

The Formation Detachments usefulness varies wildly from army to army. Every competitive Necrons army I've seen uses their version, because it's just too good not to consider, and the Formations are quite forgiving. On the other hand, most Eldar armies I've seen (my own included) completely ignore their Formation Detachment because the taxes are too hard (want a Crimson Hunter? Gotta take 3) for the bonuses (auto-running 6 inches is not that great for an army that is almost universally fleet).

As for the game as a whole, I've not had TOO much trouble surviving with all the new additions, but you do have to make some concessions to the way the game is played now. I thought when they first introduced Escalation, I would never own a single Lord of War. Now I own 2 (4 if you count my Avatar of Khaine and my Chapter's Azrael equivalent). I'm sure if you tell people that you're new and want to get back in slowly, they'll be willing to drop a few of the crazy things, unless they're total jerks (in which case you should probably avoid playing them).

Good luck!

dashzed
25-10-2015, 21:21
Honestly I keep hearing all this stuff about how horrible and cheesy 40k is, but I feel like there's a big misunderstanding of the difference between tournament and casual play.

Is there a bunch of dumb stuff in tournaments? Absolutely, lots of disgusting stuff. But in order to get a good game, I simply post on my clubs Facebook or whatever or talk to my buddy and figure out what army we're both bringing and about what power level we're aiming for.

Smooth Boy
25-10-2015, 21:33
I would call into those two local shops and see how they play since they'll probably be frequent opponents and you can probably draft them in for a cool narrative campaign. IMHO 40K is still a mess but it's fairly easy to balance out. I use three simple rules in casual play.

1) No formations except the two in the main rules book.
2) No fliers in games below 3000 pts.
3) No Lords of War below 3000 pts.

Since you have a friend who you can properly organise with it will be easy to follow some house rules, which I would recommend. I think the core rules of 7th are actually pretty good.

ObiWayneKenobi
25-10-2015, 22:49
I would call into those two local shops and see how they play since they'll probably be frequent opponents and you can probably draft them in for a cool narrative campaign. IMHO 40K is still a mess but it's fairly easy to balance out. I use three simple rules in casual play.

1) No formations except the two in the main rules book.
2) No fliers in games below 3000 pts.
3) No Lords of War below 3000 pts.

Since you have a friend who you can properly organise with it will be easy to follow some house rules, which I would recommend. I think the core rules of 7th are actually pretty good.

I might have to, one shop is close by but I've heard it's not that great (looks kinda small/dingy), the other is like 30 minutes away but I recall that the people from a shop that closed went there, and they seem to have a more competitive mindset. Right now the biggest deterrent is the price (always is, always has been, always will be) but I figure if I can put like $100 or so a month towards it, that's certainly do-able and won't break the bank, at the very least I can see if I can get a demo game or something if they have anything, see if I like the gameplay enough (after all it's been like 14 years since I played) to want to put money into it again.

Saunders
26-10-2015, 07:15
No flyers in games below 3000 points?

Well, to each their own I suppose.

Dr.Clock
26-10-2015, 17:56
Whether or not you enjoy 40k will depend greatly on your local community IMO. I've just started frequenting my FLGS and joined a new local club... and about half the people are just coming back after a few years out. There seems to be an unspoken rule that fluff beats WAAC, and people tend to be playing with collections that are still firmly in the 4th-5th design style.

We just had our first tournament, using the Astronomicon missions at 1500 with no duplicating of detachments/formations, and no LoW. It was fantastic... the missions were a big part of that, I felt, as in general I find the 'out of the book' missions to be either a bit bland and repetitive or just overly random when the strategic objectives are used.

At any rate, I personally feel that this is a pretty good time to be playing 40k - it feels like more factions are 'really viable' than in the past, and formations increase internal balance in general to the point that there are fewer truly 'useless' units.

You still see spammy lists you see floating around, but one of the good things about formations is that they often provide you with incentive to take more variety. Under the older design regime, spam made more sense because there was no reason to take units beyond their own individual utility - there was very little in-built synergy between units. This is changing alot now, with building being performed at a 'higher level' as a collection of formations more than a collection of individual units.

Finally - the addition of viable allies for most factions lets you build and bring all kinds of interesting things... My Chaos guys can all work together, all my Eldar can team up when and as I like, and my Salamanders have plans to hang out with a small allied detachment of Guard, and maybe a Knight down the road. Allies can be abused in some annoying ways, but they're great for players with large collections, or people who want a mroe diverse collecting/building/painting experience.

In sum - I never found Warmachine attractive because I'm too hookd on 40k fluff... but if you view 40k as more of a sandbox than a procedural style, there're so many possibilities that you're really spoiled for choice.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Spiney Norman
26-10-2015, 18:12
A friend of mine who I played Warmachine (my current game of choice) with told me he's getting out of Warmachine and is looking at picking up 40k again. I've been a bit... disenfranchised with Warmachine lately (due to the community I play in being extremely laid back and casual) and I've considered picking up 40k again but usually get disgusted at the price and/or the complete lack of balance and abandon the idea even though I could reasonably spend $100-150 a month on it and have no problem at all.

I told him I'd consider it and I've started looking at a few ideas, but overall is 7th still a clusterf* of spamming flyers and superheavies and having to negotiate with your opponent before a game to make sure that neither of you bring something "overpowered" to the table? I know of at least two shops in a decent area but haven't seen what the 40k communities are like there, but I also know that 40k is usually a poor choice for "show up at the game shop" pick up games. If my friend plays though I'm thinking the two of us can do a narrative campaign or something and get away from some of those issues that arise.

My other issue is deciding what to play.. my friend said he was interested in Eldar, so I'm thinking of something that would mesh well in games against them and fit the idea for a narrative campaign. I'm probably thinking either Space Marines (a Crusade to cleanse some Xenos filth from a sector?) or Tau (not sure what would bring Tau and Eldar into confrontation, they seem like they'd be more likely to be friends than enemies, but maybe they come to blows over territory a la Britan and France historically?). I know Tau are coming out with new things now, but part of my own internal restriction if I ever decided to play 40k again would be to make sure I have a good range of plastics to build an army, and I know that Marines have always been spoiled with what's basically first dibs on anything.

The big thing for me in considering 40k again has been the direction the game seems to be going, probably because I played it during 2nd and 3rd edition when it was much more balanced and felt like a better game, and have slowly seen GW throw balance and even caring out the window in favor of just pushing "plastic crack" and that has me worried about if I'd actually enjoy playing a game that amounts to who can roll the most dice.

In all honesty if you're getting down on warmahordes because your local community is too laid back you're going to utterly loathe the current edition of 40k. If you're interested in a tight game that works well with a competitive attitude 40k is about as far away from that game as it is possible to be without being age of Sigmar.

People who talk about 'balance' in 40k are kidding themselves, it wouldn't surprise me at all if points values for 40k units were generated randomly these day because they are just that out of kilter with the effectiveness of the corresponding units. And let's not even start on formations, quite simply the worst implemented idea in the history of 40k.

UndeadKing
26-10-2015, 18:56
Don't waste your time or money. 40K is a mess of a game. Frankly if gw got rid of fantasy they should have done it here instead.

Infinity, dropzone, halo fleet battles hell even star wars would be a much better buy in

ObiWayneKenobi
26-10-2015, 19:07
In all honesty if you're getting down on warmahordes because your local community is too laid back you're going to utterly loathe the current edition of 40k. If you're interested in a tight game that works well with a competitive attitude 40k is about as far away from that game as it is possible to be without being age of Sigmar.

People who talk about 'balance' in 40k are kidding themselves, it wouldn't surprise me at all if points values for 40k units were generated randomly these day because they are just that out of kilter with the effectiveness of the corresponding units. And let's not even start on formations, quite simply the worst implemented idea in the history of 40k.

I guess the difference is I would expect it in 40k. in Warmachine the reason I started was because of competitive gaming, and the local meta is completely adverse to that mindset (and I should know, I'm the store's Press Ganger!). 40k seems ike the better approach if I say screw it and want to play casual. Plus something about Warmachine never felt right, but to be fair that might because Warhammer was the only thing I played before it and I took a 13 or so year break (stopped playing 40k in like 2001, and only picked up Warmachine like early 2014, and didn't play any miniature game in the gap in between)

Vos
26-10-2015, 19:41
Just go with your gut. If you like the figures and the background and think you can find some like minded gamers as opponents then go for it...
If you're not that bothered then spend your cash elsewhere - no need to agonise over it! :)

Everyone plays for different reasons and for some the collecting, painting, modelling etc. is at least, if not more important than the actual gaming. For others the game rules and the competitive scene is more important. All depends on you and your meta!

I have had a 10 year break from owning any 40K and and getting back into the game via 30K and I'm enjoying it!

Vos

ObiWayneKenobi
26-10-2015, 22:08
Just go with your gut. If you like the figures and the background and think you can find some like minded gamers as opponents then go for it...
If you're not that bothered then spend your cash elsewhere - no need to agonise over it! :)

Everyone plays for different reasons and for some the collecting, painting, modelling etc. is at least, if not more important than the actual gaming. For others the game rules and the competitive scene is more important. All depends on you and your meta!

I have had a 10 year break from owning any 40K and and getting back into the game via 30K and I'm enjoying it!

Vos

I might wait until the new year due to money issues, but I think I owe it to myself to at least see if I can get a demo game (shops still do that right?) to gauge if it's something I'd even like. I started watching some 40k battle reports on Youtube but most of them look so weird now coming from Warmachine, like they start what looks like it's so close to each other and things like that. Such a disconnect now.

Smooth Boy
26-10-2015, 23:49
No flyers in games below 3000 points?

Well, to each their own I suppose.

Yeah I guess this one is down to preference. I don't play very often because I've just come back myself so I won't turn a game down because they have flyers, but it's off putting when people rock up with three Necron croissants. Like Dr. Clock says, I'm getting back into gaming after dropping off in 4th edition and I'm not too struck on formations but I can see 'no duplicates' working petty well. Some minor modifications help.

Losing Command
27-10-2015, 09:05
Personally I wouldn't try getting into 40k at this time. The prices are only to get more rediculus, and expecting something that approaches a decent set of rules is like expecting heavy snowfall during mid day in the Sahara desert.
If you have a bunch of friends to play it with and know how to have games on even terms go for it, but otherwise it is very like not going to be worth the hefty (also time) investment.

williamsond
27-10-2015, 10:55
40k is a mess with a power creep and inbalance so ingrained now that people hardley even notice it any more, if you're looking for balance in a familar setting it might be worth waiting for the new 30k boxed game which looks like it's out next month. 30k seems to have a better reputation these day but that may just be because people play with similar legion armies.

Karhedron
27-10-2015, 11:54
Honestly I keep hearing all this stuff about how horrible and cheesy 40k is, but I feel like there's a big misunderstanding of the difference between tournament and casual play.

Is there a bunch of dumb stuff in tournaments? Absolutely, lots of disgusting stuff. But in order to get a good game, I simply post on my clubs Facebook or whatever or talk to my buddy and figure out what army we're both bringing and about what power level we're aiming for.

This is exactly what I have found. If you are going to a Tourney, it is possible to put together some very powerful lists. It is also possible to put together something very fluffy and everything in between.

A few words with your opponent about what sort of game they want to play usually solves all the problems. Want to play without super-heavies and/or flyers? Just agree it before hand. Want to stick to the good old CAD? Again just agree that.

I usually take all (or nearly all) my army with me when I go to a game so you could make up multiple lists of different levels before-hand and choose which one to play when you arrive. After all, carrying a few extra sheets of paper is not much effort. ;)

While it is true that some armies do vary significantly in power levels, a lot can be improved by a quick chat with your opponent before the game starts. It is very rare that you have a game completely cold. After all, you will normally have at least agreed the points levels before you turn up so why not agree what army composition to use.

While you may run into the odd cheesemonger, most players outside of tournaments want to play and have a good time. Very few people take active pleasure in stomping an opponent flat in a casual setting.

Having said that, I would choose one of the armies that has been released since Necrons. These armies feature the new multiple detachment style of army composition meaning that you will have the option to play at high power-levels if you wish (it is not compulsory). The new armies are still a bit variable (GW is never going to get it completely right) but they are all fairly competitive against each other and are on a similar power-level.

Necrons
Craftworld Eldar
Khorne Daemonkin
Space Marines
Dark Angels
Tau

There are also smaller factions such as Imperial Knights, Adeptus Mechanicus and Harlequins but they can be a bit unbalanced and may work better as allies for the more established armies.

I have played 40K since 1st edition and I still enjoy it. Finding a way to play games on a level you feel comfortable with is a lot less hard than some people make it out to be, particularly if you have any regular opponents.

jtrowell
27-10-2015, 13:20
What, nobody warned him about the eldars in addition to the other problems, as his friend seems to be wanting to play them ?

Or has the wraith knight and the other problem units been magically fixed since the last time I read about the eldars ?

Karhedron
27-10-2015, 14:03
Or has the wraith knight and the other problem units been magically fixed since the last time I read about the eldars ?

This is where a quick discussion comes in helpful. If you really worry about the Wraithknight, agree to play with no SHVs/GCs. However while they are certainly good, Wraithknights are hardly indestructible. A Necron Destroyer Cult will drop one quite quickly and Marines with grav weapons will have no trouble at all.

Dr.Clock
27-10-2015, 14:27
I think that's one of the issues - the codexes are pretty varied at this point, to the extent that just knowing the faction is not a good guide to what you can expect in terms of power level.

I've played Eldar since 2nd, and I still have no WKnight or WGuard. I personally find dedicated wraith lists to be boring, just as I find the idea of bike spam of any kind to be boring. I want to play games that use many different kinds of units so that I actually have to make meaningful tactical choices in the moment. I want to taste the Eldar Rainbow.

Is my aspect-focused list powerful? Yup - BS5 makes dragons, spiders and reapers pretty flippin' amazing... and Serpents are still good units... and 2x3 bikes are great obSec units without going all-scatter... and Dire Avengers can take on most anything with an armour save, and take a charge on the chin.

At some point, tarring all players of a given faction with the same brush ends up creating an internet community that easily becomes cynical and toxic. The assumption that a given player will only ever choose the 'most effective' units from a given codex ends up making players scared of doing something that goes against the prevailing internet wisdom, and most especially when starting from scratch. It also leads to acrimony when people love a certain faction or list idea, but feel that other players are forcing them away from their preferences and toward more one-dimensional games. The only real antidote to this way of thinking is to a) pick a force for reasons that at the very least extend beyond their simple current 'power level', and b) find and consult with the players you're likely to play with the most, to find out where your interests align.

The internet makes it seem like all the local scenes in the world have the same values, and the same deep divisions between fluff-bunnies and WAACers. I haven't found that to be the case at all... people may complain a bit about some of the shenanigans, but in my locale I find that there's a wide diversity, and the average tends toward casual, friendly lists and play in general. Even the tournaments are specifically designed to be accessible to people with collections that respect the background, and the history of how this game 'ought to look' with THEME taking the lead over cutthroat list building.

Heck - the guy that took the 'best army' prize at the tournament last weekend was rolling with 3x9 rubric marines, 2 HQs, a unit of Oblits and a single cannondrake. People recognized that he had a clear theme, and wanted to use his beloved armylist no matter whether it was currently 'on top of the pile' on the internet.

That's the thing with gamey lists - everyone KNOWS they're gamey... just as everyone can easily tell when you're playing for the love of the hobby as a whole, not just one of the discrete parts of it. There's no shame in taking a strong list... and there's nothing wrong with chasing the meta to a certain extent... but it's alot easier to 'lose your way' as a community when you focus too much on the stats, and forget about theme and variety.

Finally - when you're thinking of getting back into the game, I really can't recommend the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules. It's all fan-made, but there's a good facebook community devoted to it. It's a great way to play a casual campaign without breaking the bank...

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

daveNYC
27-10-2015, 15:26
A friend of mine who I played Warmachine (my current game of choice) with told me he's getting out of Warmachine and is looking at picking up 40k again. I've been a bit... disenfranchised with Warmachine lately (due to the community I play in being extremely laid back and casual) and I've considered picking up 40k again but usually get disgusted at the price and/or the complete lack of balance and abandon the idea even though I could reasonably spend $100-150 a month on it and have no problem at all.

I'd definitely check out the local scene to see if it's one that you'd like to get in on. There's just way to much variance on what you can do with an army list (ranging from super fluffy whatevers to some WAAC all super-heavy fest) to say what you'd have to deal with if you got back into it.

At the current prices, it's going to take a while to build up an army if you're only dropping $100-150 a month. Based on the Tau release, it looks like GW is going to go with $50 being a single troop box.

If your friend is going Eldar, you might want to get details on what he's going to go with for them. They're pretty powerful all the way around, but their highs can be pretty damn high.