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Nell2ThaIzzay
08-07-2006, 05:21
Question about characters and Strength in Numbers...

If there is a Skaven character / model (doesn't particularly have to be a character) that is in a larger unit, and he is singled out for a leadership test (I.E. by an enemy model that can cause a leadership test on a model in base to base contact), does the single character / model benefit from Strength in Numbers?

I would imagine no, since it is one model being singled out, and that model isn't a unit with, well, strength in numbers. But being that it's Skaven, I wouldn't put anything past them.

Antaeus
08-07-2006, 09:13
I've always assumed they use their base leadership (ie, Skaven Warlord gets battered around the head with the Hammer of Judgement, he takes the test on Ld 7) since it's the unit that has the improved Ld - the character doesn't have ranks, after all. This is my interpretation of it.

vampires are cool!
08-07-2006, 10:26
i agree, the spirit sword totaly owns up any charcter any way but i always say that its taken on the basic ld of the modle - damn me for my forthright honesty - and i take offence at that skaven comment! we're all rather nice really...

marv335
08-07-2006, 12:07
i'm going to put forward the opinion that they do gain the benifit of SiN.
and here's why
the rule demonstrates the models courage/morale being bolstered by the others around him. i see no reason why it does not apply in this case.

and i'm a dwarf/tk player so there is no bias ;)

El-Wrongo
08-07-2006, 13:29
I agree with marv.

Strenght in numbers, first paragraph:
"ALL units in the skaven army ALWAYS add their current rank bonus to their leadership value for ANY leadership based test"

If the character have joined the unit he is to a extent a part of the unit, thus he benefits from the leadership bonus.

The wording leaves little dispute over what that means. I also think that this overrules any wording in any other book. I have always seen GW pointing out what is affected by what in rulebooks etc. For example with the Shaggot storm rage ability, where they point out storm of cronos.
Since the Skaven book don't point out any cases were this is not in use, and I haven't seen any books released later that says the rule is not in use.
The exception would be if the enemy had a unit fighting the skaven units rear or flank, thus negating the bonus completely.

Xavier
08-07-2006, 13:57
As has been said, it effects all leadership based tests. The only time rank bonus isn't added to leadership based tests is when they dont have flanks. For example when charged in the flank/rear by a unit able to negate them

vampires are cool!
08-07-2006, 14:48
well blow me down, he's right.
I guess thats correct but in some cases you have to play in character and certainly there are times when that wouldnt apply - the hammer of judgment actualy weighs the sins of the struck model rather than their bravery

T10
08-07-2006, 16:48
the hammer of judgment actualy weighs the sins of the struck model rather than their bravery

An Empire Hero's "sin" is a Skaven Hero's "bravery". :)

-T10

Nell2ThaIzzay
08-07-2006, 20:11
Well that sucks. I shouldn't be surprises though... Skaven have a loophole for EVERYTHING!


and i take offence at that skaven comment! we're all rather nice really...

Heh, no offense intended, I just play Skaven on a way too regular of a basis (my friend that I got into the game with plays Skaven, and except for my once a week visits to Games Workshop, he's the only person I play), and I've just had my fill of those dirty rats and their loopholes to everything :)

DirtJumper
08-07-2006, 20:28
I dont see how they have loopholes to everything... This isen't even really a loophole, it's just common sense.

Nell2ThaIzzay
09-07-2006, 05:20
I dont see how they have loopholes to everything... This isen't even really a loophole, it's just common sense.

-Lead from the back.
-Low leadership counteracted by "Strength In Numbers" which essentially gives them highest leadership in the game.

And technically, it's not "common sense" in the way you put it, as since a model in base to base contact is 1 model, and doesn't have ranks himself, you'd think that he wouldn't get a rank bonus for leadership tests.

But because he's a Skaven model, he does.

Xavier
09-07-2006, 08:14
Its an army specific rule, since said rules explains they use the modified leadership for everything and since he becomes part of the unit, whats the problem your all having?

El-Wrongo
09-07-2006, 09:22
The Strength in numbers rule fits the skaven fluff perfectly (same as expandable). Skavens who are alone, jumps at shadows, they get nervous, so its natural that their mental condition is almost in ruin. The anounymity (I got that wrong right?) of the crowd, and their confidense in their numbers stabilises their nerves, and can even make them seem brave.

For example in one of the Gotrek and Felix novels, Thanquel was really twitchy and nervous, almost about to break down when he was alone, but when he got a couple of thousand of his buddys along, he got real brave, real fast.

Nell2ThaIzzay
09-07-2006, 10:24
Its an army specific rule, since said rules explains they use the modified leadership for everything and since he becomes part of the unit, whats the problem your all having?

The only problem I'm having (did have) was that I didn't know if it applied to single models should they be singled out in the unit. It does. I don't like it, but I don't like much about Skaven rules, so why should this be any different? :p

Nell2ThaIzzay
09-07-2006, 10:25
The Strength in numbers rule fits the skaven fluff perfectly (same as expandable). Skavens who are alone, jumps at shadows, they get nervous, so its natural that their mental condition is almost in ruin. The anounymity (I got that wrong right?) of the crowd, and their confidense in their numbers stabilises their nerves, and can even make them seem brave.

For example in one of the Gotrek and Felix novels, Thanquel was really twitchy and nervous, almost about to break down when he was alone, but when he got a couple of thousand of his buddys along, he got real brave, real fast.

I get why they have the Strength in Numbers rule and such, it just seems to me that since 1 model is unit strength of 1, and has no ranks, that a single model wouldn't get the benefit of Strength in Numbers.

But obviously, it does.

Viskrit
09-07-2006, 23:08
Because of the place the model is in (together with his furry friends), his Ld stat is altered. Even if you target him and only him with a specific attack, his Ld stat is still altered. I don't see the problem.

Jet Black Mamba
09-07-2006, 23:20
The only times Skaven don't get it is when they have no ranks (flank / rear charged or fleeing... or a skirmish unit like Night Runners) or if the rule states that the model must use their Base Leadership. ;)

Nell2ThaIzzay
10-07-2006, 04:20
Because of the place the model is in (together with his furry friends), his Ld stat is altered. Even if you target him and only him with a specific attack, his Ld stat is still altered. I don't see the problem.

There's not a problem. I was merely getting confirmation, because I was unsure. I don't run Skaven, so I don't have their book.

I understand the logic behind it, and I also see logic as to why they'd use base leadership for individual tests. The example I'm asking about specifically would be a Lahmian Vampire using Seduction or Domination on the Vampire. One could argue that even though the Skaven rat is with his friends, the Vampire singled him out in combat, and is using her powers on him individually, and he'd get nervous having being singled out.

Obviously the fluff is that just having his buddies behind him makes him okay with it.

And it makes sense.

I don't like it, because I often play against a Skaven opponent. But it doesn't ruin my strategy or anything, because I took that into consideration anyways when coming up with the strategy. I just wanted to know which way the rules went. I know now. I don't LIKE it particularly (as I don't like much about Skaven special rules), but I don't have a problem with it. It is what it is, and it's my job to compensate for that.

Alathir
10-07-2006, 15:33
I'm with ya buddy. I find Skaven rules irritating as well. In my mind, no unit in the skaven army should be able to attain a leadership value of 10, thats ridiculous.

Ganymede
10-07-2006, 15:38
Console yourself with the fact that every one of their support units has a leadership of 6 or less, and that their nice leadership disappears as you strip ranks off of a unit, whether by missiles, magic, or flank charges.

Viskrit
10-07-2006, 17:18
Well, Gutter Runners get Ld 7.

Alathir - A rat who has a horde behind him gets extatic, and extremely courageous. With the added presence of the warlord, he gets really brave. But bear in mind that those of us who don't field Warlords don't reach Ld10.

I can see how you feel, that the cowardly little ratmen shouldn't ever be as brave as elves or dwarfs, and to a degree I agree. Maybe we should only get a max of +2 to our Ld.

But that is GW's choice to make. And as Ganymede said, our Ld is more easily dealt with, than the Ld of other races.

DeathlessDraich
10-07-2006, 17:53
Hello everybody,:)

Greetings from the Council of thirteen.:) What's this I hear?
Someone moaning about Rats!::angel: Preposterous!

Seriously, I play with several armies - Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Daemonic Legions, Empire, Tomb Kings and Skaven. Recently I've been experimenting with Lizardmen and Dwarves.

I like them ALL equally and would play with them or against them willingly.

Each army has its pros and cons and has to be played differently. Isn't that the charm of Fantasy?

For those who despise magic and shooting. Well it is necessary in some armies.

Tomb Kings are heavily reliant on their magic phase.
Elves on their high Initiative and shooting.
Empire on its variety.
Lizardmen on its cool Ld tests.
Skaven on its shooting and magic to compensate for its ineptitude at combat
etc etc etc.

I've used a SAD Skaven army. I've been defeated and I know how to defeat them with the armies above.

Strength in numbers - Well that limits a Skaven player to his choice of Lord and General and how he positions his units relative to the general, whereas in other armies, lets say Lizardmen there is a choice of a Slann based army or an Oldblood based army.
Ld10 with SIN (why do Skaven acronyms have to be derogratory? ;) ) is not a problem with my opponents when playing Skaven.
Skaven has strange rules but most of them are double edged and can backfire on themselves! I think that makes it very fair.

Lastly, the army which was too popular and my main tournament army has been banned - Daemonic Legions. I stopped playing it in my club when I realised my opponents were not enjoying the game. So the decision to stop using them is correct.

Alathir
11-07-2006, 14:40
Well, Gutter Runners get Ld 7.

Alathir - A rat who has a horde behind him gets extatic, and extremely courageous. With the added presence of the warlord, he gets really brave. But bear in mind that those of us who don't field Warlords don't reach Ld10.

I can see how you feel, that the cowardly little ratmen shouldn't ever be as brave as elves or dwarfs, and to a degree I agree. Maybe we should only get a max of +2 to our Ld.

But that is GW's choice to make. And as Ganymede said, our Ld is more easily dealt with, than the Ld of other races.

I do like the rule, I think its very characterisitc and appropiate, I just think its gone about in the wrong way... maybe they should get +1 for every 2 ranks? Or maybe it has a max of 8...

StormCrow
11-07-2006, 14:52
I dont have any major qualms about the strength in numbers rule, i guess my main gripe is that it allows a horde to achieve ld 10 (and flanking a horde isn't easy when they cover the board edge to edge)...that and why dont other horde armies get this rule? Why wouldn't a goblin appreciate strength in numbers? i Guess my frustration with Skaven comes not from them having a plethora of special rules to make them ridiculously powerful, but rather that other armies that you would expect would benefit from the same rules dont. I can think of plenty of armies that could feasibly use the "life is short" and "lead from the back" rules...it just doesn't make much sense to me that only skaven would have figured out the benefits.

My other gripe comes from screaming bell "misfires", but thats another story...

Ganymede
11-07-2006, 14:58
Orc and Goblin armies top out at 9, that's pretty damn good.

Viskrit
11-07-2006, 16:27
I do like the rule, I think its very characterisitc and appropiate, I just think its gone about in the wrong way... maybe they should get +1 for every 2 ranks? Or maybe it has a max of 8...
Hm, maxing it out at 8 would make the Skaven the most vulnerable army to Ld tests. Even greenskins have 9, as Ganymede said. I'm not sure I think a change must be made. Remember that to give the rats their Ld 10 requires several things: A Warlord general, being within range of him, having enough ranks and not being flanked. The Skaven feel a great sense of safety when surrounded by other Skaven, and inspired by their Warlord. This even makes them reckless (Ld10). However, when their numbers dwindle, or their flanks get assailed, the musk of fear spreads.

I dont have any major qualms about the strength in numbers rule, i guess my main gripe is that it allows a horde to achieve ld 10 (and flanking a horde isn't easy when they cover the board edge to edge)...that and why dont other horde armies get this rule? Why wouldn't a goblin appreciate strength in numbers? i Guess my frustration with Skaven comes not from them having a plethora of special rules to make them ridiculously powerful, but rather that other armies that you would expect would benefit from the same rules dont. I can think of plenty of armies that could feasibly use the "life is short" and "lead from the back" rules...it just doesn't make much sense to me that only skaven would have figured out the benefits.

My other gripe comes from screaming bell "misfires", but thats another story...
We all know that Skryre is overpowered, and that GW is nerfing Ratling Guns with the 7th edition, so let's leave that, shall we?

The reason other hordes don't get the rule, is because of the Skaven psyche. All races are more courageous when they are among friends, which is represented by the rank bonus in close combat, as well as not autobreaking from feared enemies unless outnumbered. But the Skaven are affected even more by their friends. While a goblin mob would still run from a terrifying dragon nearby, the rats don't. Gobbos don't take the presence of other gobbos comforting to the same degree that Skaven do.

And what about the Screaming Bell misfires?

Alathir
11-07-2006, 16:35
a Wood Elf archer only has leadership 8... I dont see why a cowardly rat with alot of other cowardly rats around him would make them possess the same bravery and courage of the greatest and most capable Elven Highborns.

It just annoys me that the race that is meant to be the epitome of cowardice, that jump at the sight of their own shadows can still achieve leadership 10 under any circumstance.

Viskrit
11-07-2006, 18:05
Yes, I know a Wood Elf Archer has Ld 8. But lead by a character, they can get Ld 9 or 10, depending on the character. Remember that to reach a Ld above 8, the Skaven need their general just like anyone else. If the Skaven were capped at Ld8 even when they are close to the general, then the Ld bonus of the general (or a character who has joined a unit) would in effect be worthless to ranked skaven infantry.

Yes, Skaven are meant to be the epitome of cowardice. When alone. The Skaven are actually very brave (or perhaps reckless is the right term) when they feel safe. That's why our armies have such mixed Ld scores. While the ranked troops get high Ld, the skirmishers and other small units flee easily. It's all quite fluffy, really.

However, I never get to feel the joy of Ld 10, since I basically always field a Grey Seer. For me, I could accept a cap at Ld 9 for the Skaven, but that would gimp those who use Warlords..

Antaeus
11-07-2006, 22:00
I think it's a very cool, characterful rule - I think of Skaven in a Ld 10 unit as assuming that any incoming fire is going to hit the rat next to them rather than them.

I'm fine with the rule, I just don't think it should apply in this rather exceptional case. *shrug*

T10
11-07-2006, 22:40
The rumored rank width change in 7th edition should prove interesting in that will result in a whooping 20% increase in cost-per-rank. The immediate result will of course be that a Skaven unit at 20 models will see its leadership deteriorate with the first casualty.

We'll see, though.

-T10

Jet Black Mamba
11-07-2006, 23:32
Strength In Numbers works out fine... I've been using Skaven for a long time, and if they didn't get the bonuses to get what would be rather high for other races, then they really would run from most combats.

SIN is to balance out the fact that your core units (Clanrats) are less than average in combat (they cost about the same as un-upgraded empire troops, which boast an automatic Ld7 -> 2 higher than a Clanrats poor Ld5) and you've got to remember the weight of negative modifiers in combat resolution. An extra dead clanrat instantly knocks down the Ld by 1, and its not hard to kill an extra Clanrat, is it? ;)

Nell2ThaIzzay
12-07-2006, 00:09
I dont have any major qualms about the strength in numbers rule, i guess my main gripe is that it allows a horde to achieve ld 10 (and flanking a horde isn't easy when they cover the board edge to edge)...that and why dont other horde armies get this rule? Why wouldn't a goblin appreciate strength in numbers? i Guess my frustration with Skaven comes not from them having a plethora of special rules to make them ridiculously powerful, but rather that other armies that you would expect would benefit from the same rules dont. I can think of plenty of armies that could feasibly use the "life is short" and "lead from the back" rules...it just doesn't make much sense to me that only skaven would have figured out the benefits.

My other gripe comes from screaming bell "misfires", but thats another story...

I do say I agree with you to an extent.

My friend always talks about how his stuff can blow up. And I say "Okay, it can blow up, but tell me exactly how losing a Ratling Gun effects your overall strategy? Surely, your strategy isn't based around a Ratling Gun?" (My friend does NOT play broken Skaven lists such as SAD or others).

When my stuff "blows up" (Vampire Counts Mages, thanks to miscasts), that can utterly cost me the game.

Then, there was this recent instance, in which my friend fielded the Storm of Chaos Clan Eshin list, and they have that "darkness" rule where armies can't see beyond artillery dice +6 or something like that... because Clan Eshin are masters of sneak attacks at night, or whatever.

And I'm thinking to myself "Okay, that totally and utterly negates a very large portion of the fluff of my army, which is how we march to war under darkness because we fill the skies with clouds to block out the sun, as well as cast dismay in the hearts of our enemies... so fluff wise, if my army is used to fighting in darkness, how exactly would I be effected by it?"

The rule in itself isn't that bad. I just really dislike how one armies fluff has been deemed more "important" (for lack of a better term) than another's on the battle field.

Another Skaven beneift that, in itself isn't that bad,but just something that I have a hard time accepting, is how these rats, who are so jumpy and cowardly, and, well, mischevious, can be on par with (and at times better than) top tier mages like Slann, High Elves, and Necrarchs, whose entire existence is based around magic...

I just see some Skaven rules / benefits / tactics and just think that it's totally out of place. My main complaint with Skaven is that there just seems to be too much they are good at, and what they are bad at is negated by some kind of special rule.

I haven't played against a lot of armies yet, but I can definatley say that Skaven are my most hated.

Ganymede
12-07-2006, 00:23
Skaven magic is potent because their practitioners are willing to risk life and limb to cast their spells. Unlike other races, skaven are willing to cast spells with the aid of tempermental machines and poisonous stones.

StormCrow
12-07-2006, 00:57
I just see some Skaven rules / benefits / tactics and just think that it's totally out of place. My main complaint with Skaven is that there just seems to be too much they are good at, and what they are bad at is negated by some kind of special rule.


I totally agree, having shooting to rival the shooty armies, their warp lightning, and being the least cowardly horde army.

And to Viskrit, the screaming bell "misfire" consisted of it distorting and blowing up a cannon, a bolt thrower, and a catapult....what the hell kind of misfire is that?! I have never been closer to crushing a model in my life. And whilst on this note, skaven should be a bit more prone to misfires, not a lot but a bit...it just doesnt seem to happen often enough when half (of the useful parts) of their army can be affected by it.

And finally, scrap the ratling gun, it makes me sad.

Alathir
12-07-2006, 14:14
Its like if there was a special rule for my wood elf that made all of the Asrai toughness 4 under some circumstance. Too many of their 'weaknesses' can be negated. Thats my complaint.

Viskrit
12-07-2006, 16:17
The rumored rank width change in 7th edition should prove interesting in that will result in a whooping 20% increase in cost-per-rank. The immediate result will of course be that a Skaven unit at 20 models will see its leadership deteriorate with the first casualty.

We'll see, though.
Most players field Clanrats blocks which are larger than 20 models, but I am a little afraid of how this will affect my slaves, who are usually only 20 models strong. I may have to up my Giant Rat units as well.


My friend always talks about how his stuff can blow up. And I say "Okay, it can blow up, but tell me exactly how losing a Ratling Gun effects your overall strategy? Surely, your strategy isn't based around a Ratling Gun?" (My friend does NOT play broken Skaven lists such as SAD or others).

When my stuff "blows up" (Vampire Counts Mages, thanks to miscasts), that can utterly cost me the game.
The chance of a spellcaster blowing up is nowhere near the chance of a ratling gun or warpfire thrower blowing up. I agree, the death of a level 4 spellcaster is worse than the death of a ratling gun, but the same goes for me. When my general Grey Seer dies, it's no fun. And he is quite capable of hurting himself with Warp Lightning and Warpstone Tokens. I realize that you get bitter if your Undead general dies from a miscast, because it affects the entire Undead army. But that is hardly criticism against Skaven, but rather criticism at how miscasting will work in 7th edition.


Then, there was this recent instance, in which my friend fielded the Storm of Chaos Clan Eshin list, and they have that "darkness" rule where armies can't see beyond artillery dice +6 or something like that... because Clan Eshin are masters of sneak attacks at night, or whatever.

And I'm thinking to myself "Okay, that totally and utterly negates a very large portion of the fluff of my army, which is how we march to war under darkness because we fill the skies with clouds to block out the sun, as well as cast dismay in the hearts of our enemies... so fluff wise, if my army is used to fighting in darkness, how exactly would I be effected by it?"

The rule in itself isn't that bad. I just really dislike how one armies fluff has been deemed more "important" (for lack of a better term) than another's on the battle field.
I agree. Why the immortal creatures of the night would have trouble fighting at their own "peak hour", I have no idea. Silly rule, and I dislike the SoC Eshin list overall.

Another Skaven beneift that, in itself isn't that bad,but just something that I have a hard time accepting, is how these rats, who are so jumpy and cowardly, and, well, mischevious, can be on par with (and at times better than) top tier mages like Slann, High Elves, and Necrarchs, whose entire existence is based around magic...
The Skaven Warlock Engineers dabble in magic, but they cannot stand up to the Slann, The Elves and the Necrarchs. Warlock Engineers are only level 1 wizards, while those you mentioned can reach the 4th level.

As for the Grey Seers.. well, fluffwise, they are some of the most potent magic wielders. They are prophets of the Horned Rat, born with several marks of his blessing (horns, pale fur etc).


And to Viskrit, the screaming bell "misfire" consisted of it distorting and blowing up a cannon, a bolt thrower, and a catapult....what the hell kind of misfire is that?! I have never been closer to crushing a model in my life. And whilst on this note, skaven should be a bit more prone to misfires, not a lot but a bit...it just doesnt seem to happen often enough when half (of the useful parts) of their army can be affected by it.

And finally, scrap the ratling gun, it makes me sad.

Well, it wasn't the misfire itself which caused the warmachines to blow up, it was the effect of the ringing. You must have been quite unlucky, that he rolled 3 wounds on all three of your war machines, and I understand that it was frustrating. However, I think the bell is overpriced. 200 points for a thing which makes your Grey Seer vulnerable, and potentially does nothing for the entire battle. I know it can work wonders on those lucky rolls, though. I think they should keep it at 200 points, but change the effects. Make them more even. Remove the best, and the worst effects.

Yes, the Ratling Gun isn't balanced. But come 7th edition, it'll be easy to pick out.

I agree that some troops in the army should misfire more often. The Ratling Gun should be made more unreliable. However, the rest is quite fine if you ask me.

Nell2ThaIzzay
13-07-2006, 06:10
However, the rest is quite fine if you ask me.

Overall, I would say yes, but as a regular Skaven opponent, I just find it that the Skaven are too good in too many things, and don't have enough weaknesses.

Their real weakness is the leadership, which is made up for in Strength in Numbers. Yes, their leadership CAN be taken away, which is something that I don't think any other army has. But until it's taken away, they also have the best leadership in the game all around, as well.

BTW, I don't think it's really an unbalanced rule. Nor on their own is really any other Skaven rule.

But when you add in all of the Skaven rules:

-Strength in Numbers
-Lead From the Back
-Life is Cheap
-Warpstone
-Cavalry bonus (6+ armor save) without cavalry drawback (I.E. Ratling Guns have 360 line of site)

And then combine them with overall strengths of the army, with number, jezzails, Ratling Guns, Warp Lightning Cannons, magic heavy characters, character killing characters, etc...

Well I won't say that the Skaven are broken. On their own, they aren't. They can be exploited (and I'm lucky that my friend isn't the type of player to exploit them), but on it's own, the Skaven aren't unbalanced. They can be beaten. But (and maybe it's just the army that I play, and Skaven just are one of those armies that Vampire Counts aren't really designed against) it seems like it's always an uphill battle.

All of my worst losses have come at the hands of the Skaven. Countless times have I conceeded to my opponent by turn 2. I have never done anything like that against any other army (although I came close against Dwarves last night). I still feel that even a balanced Skaven list is still an "above average" list, so to speak. I still think that the most balanced of Skaven lists has advantages over any other balanced army. Basically, everything that you're not supposed to be able to do, Skaven can do. And all the things that they are weak at is made up for with some special rule. So in actuality, there's no glaring weakness that they have that makes up for their strengths. Yes, some of their stuff can blow up. But a Ratling Gun blowing up doesn't effect Strength in Numbers, Lead From the Back, anything and everything Warpstone, or anything like that. That's where my Ratling Gun vs. Mage blowing up comparrison came from. How does a Ratling Gun blowing up REALLY effect your army?

I just see it as, I have my army. Our biggest strength is fear, and immune to psychology. But there's a huge weakness also to counteract that. Whatever we lose combat by, we take extra wounds. And there's nothing to stop that.

And I don't mind that drawback. Sure it sucks... but whatever.

And I look at the Skaven strengths; Numbers, Warpstone, and the "loopholes" to get around a lot of big rules of what you're not supposed to be able to do (I.E. shooting into combat, or using characters in back ranks), and I don't see any glaring weaknesses that counteract that. Sure a Ratling Gun can blow up, but that's not a glaring weakness.

But I hope I'm not coming off as just bashing the Skaven. Again, I don't think they are totally overpowered or unbalanced or anything. A balanced Skaven list is fun to play against. I enjoy it. And I enjoy wiping the battlefield with their faces :) I have a Skeleton Champion devoted to the demise of Skaven; he's holding a charm that's full of Skaven skulls. I call him the Skaven Killer. (Of course he was created because my friend I'd normally be playing against runs Skaven. I also made a Skeleton model of a dead Empire soldier, because my other friend at the time was playing Empire, and I painted the corpse with the same color scheme my friend was using for his Empire army). Overall, my Vampire Counts army has a very fun rivalry with the Skaven.

Just overall, I don't think that they have a true weakness that I think any army should have. They have weaknesses, yes, and any good general can take advantage of them. I just don't see them as being as predominant as maybe they should be.

Viskrit
13-07-2006, 13:30
Heh, good to see that you have a devoted Skaven killer. That's the spirit. :D

As I see it, the availability of all the Skryre gadgets is what must be limited. As you say, being able to field a huge Horde army, which is also backed up by loads of crazy shooters, that's what makes the biggest unbalance. As for your other complaints, I can't really agree. Lead from the back, Life is cheap and such rules aren't really unbalanced on their own, in my opinion.

I remember one of the times when I faced Skaven myself. It was a tournament, and I fielded my HE. He had perhaps 3 Ratling Guns, and I had a magic heavy cav force with 2 Bolt Throwers and 2 eagles. That time, I learned that manouvering wisely is the best way to deal with Ratling Guns. I barely suffered a wound from his gunnery, and killed almost his entire army with flank charges. Using spells which are not magic missiles also helped dealing with the Ratlings. As I see it, 7th edition will really make Weapon Teams easy to dispose of. Being able to target them from turn one, they will be no more than easy VP's for many armies.

Nell2ThaIzzay
13-07-2006, 20:47
I agree that on their own, any of those particular rules isn't that bad. It's the combining of all of them, allowing Skaven to get by most "you can't do this" rules in the game, as well as combined with all of their strengths from shooting and numbers, and it's an above average army.

Not overpowered, in that it can't be beaten.

But above average, in the sense that even a balanced Skaven list is probably inherently a bit better than a balanced list from most any other army.