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Ben
26-10-2015, 00:13
For those who are fans of Age of Sigmar in the US, there are bargains to be had as stores drastically drop the price on stock they can't sell.

US - RRP - $125

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B010TUEMOA/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Available for just under $70 - a 40% saving.

However elsewhere in the world....

UK - RRP - 75

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B010TUEMOA/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1445813013&sr=8-1&keywords=age+of+sigmar&condition=new

Available for 60 - a 20% saving

Germany - RRP - 100 Euros

http://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B0111JZI96/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=toys&ie=UTF8&qid=1445813775&sr=1-1&keywords=age+of+sigmar&condition=new

Available for 80 Euros - a 20% saving.

What does this tell us?

What we pretty much already know. Age of Sigmar is not doing well in the US market and stores are dumping stock for whatever they can get back for it.

The UK is either doing better, or since there are far more GW stores and fewer LGSs stock GW products they have been protected from the Age of Sigmar effect (instead cashing in on Warmahordes, X-wing, Frostgrave, KoW, infinity, batman, etc). I've not personally seen evidence of AoS doing better here, but there could be legions of shy gamers out there who play it but don't talk about it and order their stuff online direct from GW (which would, to be honest, be exactly how GW want it).

On the other hand, for those who do like the game, there are bargains to be had and you can help get LGS's who were promised that AoS would sell and be a success out of the hole they are in sitting on a pile of stock no one will buy.

Tokamak
26-10-2015, 00:36
I've stopped hoping GW returns to the drawing board again.

Shifte
26-10-2015, 00:36
AOS has absolutely bombed. I wonder how long it'll take for GW to admit it, if ever. I suspect 2 years, as the first set of new accounts will have the impressive starter set launch figures included.

I only stopped by here because I'd been playing Vermintide and it made me sad that the Old World is gone.

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 00:37
Lies! Don't believe any of this. Allied troops are killing themselves at the gates of Baghdad, we have always been at war with Eastasia, and Age of Sigmar is a runaway hit!

Lars Porsenna
26-10-2015, 00:40
To be fair, 20% discounts are nothing to get too excited about. I usually don't even buy GW UNLESS I get a 20% discount to start with. 40% is pretty nice discount though...

Damon.

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 00:52
Yeah, I don't even get out of bed unless I'm getting a 20% discount first. But some of these discounts are enormous, though. At least three stores selling the starter for $70, shipping included. Assuming $8 shipping, we're talking $62 for the box. That's 50% off! Who knows what their exact trade terms are, but given that retailer terms start at retailers paying 55% of the full price, these independent stores may actually be taking a loss on these boxes. Now unless they're the ultimate GW evangelists who're willing to take a financial loss in order to better spread the Gospel of Sigmar to the unwashed masses, then that means that this game is bombing big time. Hits, or even moderate sellers, aren't sold so cheaply that your profits are so low as to be negligible, or even potentially resulting in an actual financial loss. 20-25% off? Sure, you see that all the time. 50% off? You never see that, because nobody makes money off of discounts that deep.

draccan
26-10-2015, 01:57
Hell I wouldn't take aos if I was paid to...

Smooth Boy
26-10-2015, 03:30
Yeah 20% saving is pretty standard for online retailers, but I agree it's tanking. Only problem is there's no going back, it fails and we're riding it into Hobbit SBG land.

Vandelan
26-10-2015, 03:53
It's almost as if people with a negative outlook on Age of Sigmar are jumping to negative conclusions.

Voss
26-10-2015, 03:59
I've stopped hoping GW returns to the drawing board again.

I can't wait for this, actually. Clearly the problem is that the Sigmarines lack backpacks. If they just have backpacks, sales will go up.

And a steamtank for a 'Drive me closer so I can hit them with my sword' meme-image.

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 04:33
It's almost as if people with a negative outlook on Age of Sigmar are jumping to negative conclusions.

By all means, feel free to explain why independent retailers dumping stock at a 50% discount, which almost certainly eliminates their own profit margin entirely, is a sign that AOS is a financial success.

Vandelan
26-10-2015, 05:04
By all means, feel free to explain why independent retailers dumping stock at a 50% discount, which almost certainly eliminates their own profit margin entirely, is a sign that AOS is a financial success.

I can't explain the actions of a fraction of independent retailers, and I have no reason to believe anyone being foolish enough to sell GW products at a loss is an indication of Age of Sigmar's supposed failure.

Dosiere
26-10-2015, 05:07
Yes, it doesn't appear to be very popular here in the states.

Even most of the people who are playing it aren't really buying anything, which is going to show next quarter after the starter set bubble is gone.

I dunno, the game still just doesn't make a lot of sense to me as a WFB replacement. My personal opinion is the game is decent, if you happen to be in the niche within a niche that AoS is designed for. I found out that I am apparently not, despite giving AoS more time and more games than most did. It would be a fine game if released all by itself, certainly their best since Space Hulk. Again, even if I was playing it a little, it's just not the kind of game you are going to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on. As a specialist type of game it has its place, as the flagship Warhammer game...no thanks GW.

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 05:09
I can't explain the actions of a fraction of independent retailers, and I have no reason to believe anyone being foolish enough to sell GW products at a loss is an indication of Age of Sigmar's supposed failure.

So you think these independent retailers located in different parts of the country suddenly were struck stupid and decided that they would purposefully handicap the success of their business by selling product at a loss? You don't think that the reason for that might be not their sudden stupidity, but rather their inability to sell it for more, and a desire to recoup their losses? That if they didn't sell it for that low, they might not be able to sell it at all? And that an inability to sell it might be an indication of AOS's failure? Whenever retail chains sell product this cheap, it's not because they've suddenly forgotten how to run a business, but because they know that product will no longer turn a profit for them, and are trying to offload it for whatever they can get before selling it for even that reduced price will become untenable.

So yeah, when independent retailers are trying to offload starter sets that cheaply, that most definitely is an indication that AOS is failing. Retailers don't cut their profit margins to 0, or potentially even take a loss, on successful products. That only happens with abject failures.

akai
26-10-2015, 05:16
20-25% off? Sure, you see that all the time. 50% off? You never see that, because nobody makes money off of discounts that deep.

I have seen often enough to know retailers still make a profit when putting items on 50% discounts or more.


By all means, feel free to explain why independent retailers dumping stock at a 50% discount, which almost certainly eliminates their own profit margin entirely, is a sign that AOS is a financial success.

By all means, can you show me where you get that retailers sale their products at 50% reduced price don't make a profit? Less profit is true, but not making any money is ridiculous. I don't care whether AOS is a financial success or failure, but asking others to explain why AOS is a financial success when that is not even what he/she stated in their post...take that angst on someone else :P

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 05:18
I have a friend who works for a toy company and I've seen GW sales terms. While I don't know how it changes when you buy in more, I do know that it starts with retailers paying 55% of the price of a product, which would make the AOS starter $68.75. So if those are the terms for these retailers, then yes, that is indeed a loss, as 45% off would be breaking even for them.

Dosiere
26-10-2015, 05:40
Yes, in this particular case the retailers are paying at least 50% of the sticker price, usually a bit more. There are items sold in retail stores that are less than that of course akai, but we are talking specifically about GW products sold in from independent retailers, so it's not ridiculous. Some retailers simply ordered way too much AoS stuff, expected the demand to be higher, and are now just dumping it to clear their inventory for little or no profit. If it was just a fraction of the marketplace then OK, but it's been going on for months and across most major internet sellers now.

The only sensible conclusion is that there is too much supply and not enough demand for AoS products at anywhere near GWs retail price. Since we don't know what the supply level is though, we also don't know what it means.

akai
26-10-2015, 05:53
Buddybear - as you wrote yourself, you don't how it changes you buy in more or how it differs from one retailer to another retailer.

When talking about profit margins, this article seems to explain it very well: http://www.rpg.net/columns/businessofgamingretail/businessofgamingretail11.phtml

If you don't want to read it, just read the conclusion:

So, any discussion on margin that just stops at “There’s no way I’m selling anything less than 45% margin in my store” is missing the point. You can’t have a discussion on margin without considering all the attendant factors. Neither a high margin nor a low margin is enough information on which to base a decision. It’s like saying there’s no way you’ll sell a game with a blue cover or a miniature with the weapon in its left hand. No way!

Margin is, after all, just a meter. It’s like a dollar-per-square-foot analysis or a turn rate. You don’t put a margin or a turn rate or a percentage in your bank. You put sales in your bank account, and you put profit in your pocket. Those are the numbers that matter. If you’re going to focus on a mathematically derived formula, focus on those.

akai
26-10-2015, 05:55
The only sensible conclusion is that there is too much supply and not enough demand for AoS products at anywhere near GWs retail price. Since we don't know what the supply level is though, we also don't know what it means.

I absolutely agree with this.

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 06:07
Buddybear - as you wrote yourself, you don't how it changes you buy in more or how it differs from one retailer to another retailer.

When talking about profit margins, this article seems to explain it very well: http://www.rpg.net/columns/businessofgamingretail/businessofgamingretail11.phtml

If you don't want to read it, just read the conclusion:

Yes, bigger ones who order dozens or over a hundred starter sets likely get deeper discounts, but these don't appear to be huge retailers, but run-of-the-mill retailers. The kind who would be paying 55% of the full price.

As for that conclusion, if a product isn't selling at all, then yes, the margin does matter, because all that is money you lost, not earned. We're not talking about the size of the profit margin because there isn't any profit margin. That's all shelf space which is eating up space which could be put towards things that sell. So if retailers are selling products at discounts that deep, not only so that there's no profit margin for them but they're taking an actual loss on it, then that's not the sign of a strong or successful seller. That's the sign of panic selling to get rid of a bomb before the bottom drops out of the market completely and those sets become totally worthless.

Dosiere
26-10-2015, 06:22
Well, unless something changed in the past few months, the most any independent retailer is getting off is 50% no matter how much they buy from GW. Most of the smaller retailers pay a bit more, but also aren't required to stock as much on release dates nor keep things on the shelf. Again akai, we actually do know what the rates are and what these retailers likely paid GW for the products, so we can pretty accurately state these store selling GW stuff at 45% and free shipping are not making much, if any, money. It's pretty clear they're just ejecting inventory at cost or maybe just a tiny bit above.

By the time you factor in other costs, like shipping and labor, I don't think an argument can be made that these retailers are somehow magically making a profit worth mentioning off of AoS. Generally in this market you see up to around 20% off at most on stuff, even online. Any more and it's probably not worth selling, otherwise you would consistently see GW stuff sold at 40% off in bulk and you just don't.

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 06:38
My FLGS had a couple massive 40% off sales on GW product. After selling about $5,000 or so worth of product, he only ended up with about $300 more than what he paid for all that stuff. $300 in actual profit after selling $5000 worth of material. So it wasn't about the mighty profits he could have accumulated from selling at a deeper discount, but about clearing product that wasn't moving from valuable shelf space and trying to recoup his investment (and there was stuff he didn't manage to sell once he permanently cut ties with GW, so despite that, he's still operating at a loss, as he has a number of boxes sitting around that nobody's buying even at those massive discounts). So yeah, if these retailers are selling their boxes at 50% off, and 50% is the absolute best discount they could get, with 45% off being likelier, then they're absolutely losing money off of this. And if they're losing money, then that definitely says something about the financial health of the game. After all, we live in the internet age. There's no need to sell those boxes so cheaply if AOS is simply dry in their area but popular elsewhere. They could sell it at 20% off and sell it to someone somewhere else in the country... if the game had a healthy gaming community. It doesn't seem to have that, though, hence the deep "Just get these boxes out of our hands so we can be free of them already" discounts.

CoolWhip
26-10-2015, 06:57
Buddy bear with the excellent 1984 reference. Well done sir.

akai
26-10-2015, 06:58
Dosiere and Buddy Bear - until I see exact GW price terms for these retailers, everything is speculation. The "we actually do know what the rates are" always seem to change a bit here and there with each statement on this forum :P. The link I posted about profit margins is credible to me. Most posters of the "we know what the rates are, etc, etc with a disclaimer" are less credible to me.

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 07:02
Well, in my case I know what it is because like I said, a friend of mine works for a toy company. She was at some convention and made friends with a GW rep who not only gave her a bunch of free stuff (Tactical Squad, Riptide, Dakkajet) but also the trade terms for retailers and offered to let her to order stuff through him and pay retailer prices. My friends and I were going to take advantage of it by making a huge order, but sadly, he no longer had his position by the time we got around to it. :P But I've seen the actual order form booklet used by retailers to order from GW and the prices listed on it, and they're 45% off, meaning retailers pay 55% of the full price. This was later confirmed by the owner of my FLGS, who like I said tried to offload all his GW stock for 40% off, and made next to no profit despite selling off thousands of dollars worth of stock. So if you want to believe that that FLGS owner is flush after selling $5000 worth of stock for 40% off, then be my guest. But trust me, he's not. He has, however, filled all those shelves formerly occupied by GW product with X-Wing. So apparently the near guaranteed sales of selling GW product at 40% off isn't a worthwhile prospect to him in comparison to selling X-Wing at 20% off.

Ben
26-10-2015, 09:26
Dosiere and Buddy Bear - until I see exact GW price terms for these retailers, everything is speculation. The "we actually do know what the rates are" always seem to change a bit here and there with each statement on this forum :P. The link I posted about profit margins is credible to me. Most posters of the "we know what the rates are, etc, etc with a disclaimer" are less credible to me.

http://trade.games-workshop.com/?page_id=798

GW trade terms. List D is the largest discount list for prices.

It isn't speculation.

Captain Idaho
26-10-2015, 09:58
Combined with all the other evidence and anecdotes regarding this game, this is just another nail in the coffin.

I wonder if GW can be professional enough to U-turn? We all know they won't, but then if you care about the profit for shareholders like GW tell us they do, then it's the sensible thing to do.

Niall78
26-10-2015, 09:58
If the AoS starter is now being dumped on the market at a loss or tiny profit you can forget about the same retailers stocking any more of the AoS range in the future. Retailers are touchy about stuff like that - if they aren't they go out of business pretty fast.

This is going to reduce AoS to near invisibility in many parts of the world in the near future. Product just wont be available on the shelves in many areas.

Niall78
26-10-2015, 10:00
Combined with all the other evidence and anecdotes regarding this game, this is just another nail in the coffin.

I wonder if GW can be professional enough to U-turn? We all know they won't, but then if you care about the profit for shareholders like GW tell us they do, then it's the sensible thing to do.

This is a big sign of failure. The tournament in Warhammer World getting cancelled is another. Most of the signs we have had about AoS point to a market failure of quite large proportions.

Captain Idaho
26-10-2015, 10:01
Considering GW do not advertise and rely on word of mouth from veterans and new people interested in a shiny product in a shop, this is devastating.

Niall78
26-10-2015, 10:03
Considering GW do not advertise and rely on word of mouth from veterans and new people interested in a shiny product in a shop, this is devastating.

Yeah it blows their selling model out of the water. With no visibility in many parts of the world how will customers even know they exist?

Captain Idaho
26-10-2015, 10:06
Question is, should I buy shares now ready for a big sell off, or wait until it crashes for a big buy in? lol

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 10:18
It still mystifies me that GW thought they could successfully drive away their existing customer base while bringing in a brand new and much larger player base out of nowhere. Did they think they were making the Field of Dreams of miniature wargaming? If you build it, they will come?

What I wonder is what'll happen to all those people who bought into Age of Sigmar and collected sizeable armies on round bases, whether it be Sigmarines or something else (either repacks or getting round bases for their models)? Will they keep playing with their discontinued game, or move on? And what about those Sigmarine players? Will we suddenly find an influx of former AOS players on the Mantic Forums, asking Mantic to introduce a Sigmarine lookalike army into Kings of War?

2DSick
26-10-2015, 10:23
I'm not quite I agree with the OPs sentiment too much.

20% is an online retailers standard discount. God knows I've relied on Triplehelixwargames to keep me in the game for the last few years.

It doesn't suprise me that flgs are struggling to shift it. Especially when they're stocked with more affordable and better games.

Even at a 20% mark down.. It's pricey.

Whirlwind
26-10-2015, 10:34
Wasn't there a suggestion many months back that GW had given some retailers the AoS boxes for 'free' because they tried to return them and GW just didn't want that (storage costs I assume) so they just let them keep them without charging them. If this was the case then large discounts are possible because it is al profit (minus the overheads).

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 10:38
If that's what happened then that's equally disastrous, because GW's certainly not going to make it a regular habit of producing merchandise and giving it to retailers free of charge. If things are so bad that they outright gave those boxes away in order to keep retailers from giving up on AOS, then that's dire.

Holier Than Thou
26-10-2015, 10:40
Hell I wouldn't take aos if I was paid to...

I would. I might be able to get 20 quid for it on eBay. ;)

Yowzo
26-10-2015, 10:44
Hell I wouldn't take aos if I was paid to...

Hey, I've made some sweet-looking cheap morghasts out of the sigmarine winged dudes.

Swap head, file some hammers and you're done.

I've you're into KoW they can fill in as those wossname basilean angels.

Ben
26-10-2015, 10:44
I'm not quite I agree with the OPs sentiment too much.

20% is an online retailers standard discount. God knows I've relied on Triplehelixwargames to keep me in the game for the last few years.

It doesn't suprise me that flgs are struggling to shift it. Especially when they're stocked with more affordable and better games.

Even at a 20% mark down.. It's pricey.

That's why I said the States.

In the UK it is either selling better or indys have limited their exposure and don't have piles of Age of Sigmar taking up space that they need to dump. I know some stores had AoS with the promise they could return it if it didn't sell, and that option is being used. But I don't know how widespread it is.

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 11:20
I remember someone mentioning around here that a big French game store frequently sold GW product at full price and never had any problems, but for AOS they had to offer a 20% discount. Now, as stated above, 20% usually isn't a big deal, but I would think it is if it's a situation where the vendor never felt the need to offer a discount before. So if they always offered 20% off then it would mean nothing. But if they went years and years successfully selling GW product at full price, and then suddenly offered a 20% discount, and only on AOS (and not 40k), then that says something about how well it's doing. And it definitely says something when there are US retailers selling it at 50% off, which is losing them money.

BramGaunt
26-10-2015, 11:33
I've stopped hoping GW returns to the drawing board again.

I've stopped believing they have a drawing board.

chrism
26-10-2015, 12:13
My Local flgs is selling the new Assassinorium board game for 50% off if you walk in and buy it or 40% off over the web. They've always been solid on 10% discount on GW stuff so it may be a sign that the other side of GW's house mightn't be bullet proof either. Also Jake Thornton posted about GW pre-orders for 30k on Nov 7th (quirkworthy.com) up against Warlords planned release date of Gates of Antares - which might indicate that GW are actually starting to notice those nipping at their heels!

Deadhorse
26-10-2015, 12:49
I know stores are paying GW between 60 and 70 dollars for an AoS set. And many stores in Poland are now selling AoS at 60-70 bucks per set, which means they're dumping product to recoup costs and clear shelves. It is clear that any FLGS selling AoS at $60-70 will not be stocking any more in the near future. A popular online store I buy from is selling AoS at $64 (GW webstore price = $125), which is basically 50%. Assassinorum is at $82 (GW webstore price $125) in that same online store, and we all know that wasn't a stellar success.

I know this is happening at both online retailers and b&m stores, with discounts varying from 20 to 50% off RRP.
40k stock is not discounted so significantly (usually more like up to 20%)

The only reason for AoS @ 70 bucks online is that demand is smaller than supply. I could accept a local sale at a B&M store of that magnitude could mean the game has just failed with the local community. But the online price is basically a country-wide (or even continental) indicator and stores wouldn't be charging $70 unless previously they had failed to sell at $100, $90, $80 and so on.

This means that:
- AoS has sold worse than GW expected, as GW sets supply.
- The GW online store will not sell much of AoS to anyone with a brain, as you can get it at half the price in other online stores
- AoS will not be stocked at many FLGS, because for numerous retailers it was a waste of time and space at best, and a waste of money at worst.

And no, that's not subject to debate, its basic math and logic.

ntw3001
26-10-2015, 12:50
I can't explain the actions of a fraction of independent retailers, and I have no reason to believe anyone being foolish enough to sell GW products at a loss is an indication of Age of Sigmar's supposed failure.

'I can't explain their reasoning, but I know it must be foolish because I would like it to be'

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

Tokamak
26-10-2015, 12:54
I have no reason to believe anyone being foolish enough to sell GW products at a loss is an indication of Age of Sigmar's supposed failure.

Store space costs money. Especially during these months.

Ben
26-10-2015, 13:01
The Christmas campaigns are underway, when most retail sales get made. It's why October/November sees so many things released (Star Wars toys for example).

Inventory for things that won't sell ties up cash .

GW have sold it to the stores, and got their cash. They then don't care. The stores need to sell the stock to buy something they can then sell at a profit or they are screwed.

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 13:34
It looks like we'll soon have another test of how well Age of Sigmar is, or isn't, selling. It appears that the Lizardmen/Seraphon will not only be getting a Battletome, but they'll be getting a Limited Edition version as well. Now here's the interesting part. In 8th Edition, the Lizardmen also had a limited edition army book. I don't know the specifics of how it sold, but here are some relevant facts and the conclusions I've drawn from them:

1) According to this link, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_Army_Book#8th_Edition, it was released on August 2013.

2) This post on DakkaDakka was made after it sold out.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/543945.page Note the day it was posted on: August 3, 2013. I checked and that day fell on a Saturday. So the Lizardmen Limited Edition had to have been released the day right before, August 2nd. Which means that that book, which was limited to 1,000 copies, sold out within 24 hours.

So, knowing that the Lizardmen Limited Edition Army Book sold out within 24 hours, couldn't we expect for the Seraphon Limited Edition Battletome to sell out as fast, if not faster? After all, if Age of Sigmar were selling as well if not better than Warhammer Fantasy, then it should have an equivalently sized or larger player base willing to put down money for the new limited edition book, right? That doesn't seem wholly unreasonable to me. After all, we're not talking about an army which has to generate a player base from scratch, like the Sigmarines or Khorne Bloodbound. There's already a pre-existing Lizardmen player base in existence, and we already know for a fact that those Lizardmen players are capable of selling out a 1,000 copy limited edition, because they did it just two years ago, and all within a 24 hour period.

On the other hand, what if it takes longer than 24 hours to sell out? Or even worse, what if it never sells out? What if, like every other limited edition book released for Age of Sigmar, it never even comes close to selling out before it finally gets pulled from the GW website? IMO, the implication there would be that the player base is drastically smaller (at least for Lizardmen) than what existed during Warhammer Fantasy. And if that's the case, well... that would explain why some retailers are dumping boxes at 50% off, wouldn't it?

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 13:39
Very few people are going to buy the normal version, and fewer still are going to buy the limited edition version - because they already have the rules. We have several lizardmen players in our store campaign (six), and four bought the ltd edition book for 8th edition. None of them are buying either of the books because they don't need them. I know that none of them are buying the book because they have all said they are not buying the book because they are too expensive and have nothing in them that they need since they already have the warscrolls for free which is the only part that they care about (especially with the release of the app that everyone uses that has all of the warscrolls on it downloaded to your phone or tablet - for free)

That still won't stop our store from having over 20 people in it this weekend playing in our campaign.

Now if there's actually something in that book that is needed for gameplay that you can't get for free, that might change the equation a little. I don't know anyone that spends money for the sake of spending money though if they already have it for free (the kings of war group in town is the same way, they have 12 or so people now and 2 of them bought a book, the other 10 don't bother since the rules are free)

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 13:46
That argument has never and will never fly, because nobody needs to buy a limited edition book to get the rules. They can just get the regular book. So no, being able to get the rules for less, or for free, has no effect on whether people get the limited edition or not, because having a source for the rules isn't why people get limited editions. 1,000 people bought a book they didn't need the last time around, and we'll find out if GW can find another 1,000 people to buy a book they don't need this time around for the same exact army.

aprilmanha
26-10-2015, 13:50
I don't know anyone that spends money for the sake of spending money though if they already have it for free

Some people still do if they are collectors of the franchise.
I bought the Warmachine faction books even though I have the Warroom App that has all the rules in as well as the cards that came with the models... guess I just like spending money on stuff :D

Niall78
26-10-2015, 13:50
Very few people are going to buy the normal version, and fewer still are going to buy the limited edition version - because they already have the rules. We have several lizardmen players in our store campaign (six), and four bought the ltd edition book for 8th edition. None of them are buying either of the books because they don't need them. I know that none of them are buying the book because they have all said they are not buying the book because they are too expensive and have nothing in them that they need since they already have the warscrolls for free which is the only part that they care about (especially with the release of the app that everyone uses that has all of the warscrolls on it downloaded to your phone or tablet - for free)

That still won't stop our store from having over 20 people in it this weekend playing in our campaign.

Now if there's actually something in that book that is needed for gameplay that you can't get for free, that might change the equation a little. I don't know anyone that spends money for the sake of spending money though if they already have it for free (the kings of war group in town is the same way, they have 12 or so people now and 2 of them bought a book, the other 10 don't bother since the rules are free)

How do you expect AoS to be a success if nobody is buying anything? Your line of reasoning - if true - would render most companies financially untenable. Personally every year I spend thousands on gaming rules, supplements and fluff books - none of which I really need to play any system I'm involved with. What will the gamers you play with buy for AoS? It could be years before some armies are released. If your experience is replicated in other places it means even the dwindling fan base of AoS wont invest much in the system. Disaster considering the customers AoS has already dumped. Where is the buy-in for this system coming from?

akai
26-10-2015, 13:51
http://trade.games-workshop.com/?page_id=798

GW trade terms. List D is the largest discount list for prices.

It isn't speculation.

1. Where does that actually list price? I do not see it from my reading. It just states there are four price levels. Unless I am reading a different section. The section basically states price list is tailored to each outlet.

"Once a VASP assessment has been conducted by GW under Section 13.1, GW shall inform the Trade Account in writing of the appropriate Price List for the Outlet which shall become effective immediately."

In addition, there can also be an additional 10% discount (Section 14)

2. Europe Terms are not the same as North American Terms. Games Workshop | Retailers website actually have different terms for different regions.

Therefore, unless I did not read the appropriate section in the Europe and North American terms, it is still speculation or claims without showing hard evidence on your part.

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 14:00
How do you expect AoS to be a success if nobody is buying anything? Your line of reasoning - if true - would render most companies financially untenable. Personally every year I spend thousands on gaming rules, supplements and fluff books - none of which I really need to play any system I'm involved with. What will the gamers you play with buy for AoS? It could be years before some armies are released. If your experience is replicated in other places it means even the dwindling fan base of AoS wont invest much in the system. Disaster considering the customers AoS has already dumped. Where is the buy-in for this system coming from?

I never said anything about AoS being a success or a failure though :) I'm saying a lot of people are playing the game, many are even buying new models (i know in our group we have five new players now and all bought brand new armies up to 20 pts of azyr from the gw store) but few if any are buying the books simply because they don't want to spend $50+ on an art / story book (I find that it is a truly small percentage of people that actually care about the narrative, in our group there may be 2 or 3 people out of 30 that can tell you anything more than the basic warscrolls tell you as far as the story is concerned) that has nothing to add to the game.

From the perspective of a commercial success/failure, the models are going to have to drive that because book sales surely are NOT going to be much of a factor (there are only three of us that have bought any book and the only one that bought them all is the campaign organizer for scenario ideas)

We have five people that bought the chaos fortress (the whole thing) for instance, but only the campaign organizer bought the book.

Very few spend money on rules that they can get for free (legally). If these rules were not freely obtainable, I bet books would move a little more. As it is, judging the entire success of Age of Sigmar based solely on book sales is not accurate in my opinion, simply because very few people are buying books, but a lot of people are buying models and still playing.

We did polls on this in August and September and it came out to be like 15% of people polled out of over 500 actually bought ANY book at all for AoS (and limited edition was a small fraction of that) but all of them actively played the game.

So as a gauge of commercial success - very tenable at best. You have to look at model sales as well. As a gauge of if its played or not - to me cannot be used at all (which is what I feel is trying to be said here, that no one is playing because no one is buying the book) because I know for a fact based on polls and my own group that the vast majority are playing quite regularly but are not buying any books at all because they don't need to.

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 14:04
How do you expect AoS to be a success if nobody is buying anything? Your line of reasoning - if true - would render most companies financially untenable. Personally every year I spend thousands on gaming rules, supplements and fluff books - none of which I really need to play any system I'm involved with. What will the gamers you play with buy for AoS? It could be years before some armies are released. If your experience is replicated in other places it means even the dwindling fan base of AoS wont invest much in the system. Disaster considering the customers AoS has already dumped. Where is the buy-in for this system coming from?

I bought the recently released Codex: Space Marines Limited Edition when it came out... I also bought the regular Codex: Space Marines, because I had no intention of taking my snazzy limited edition copy to games with me and risk getting it damaged (I also have the iBook version, but I did that out of a sudden need and no immediate access to the book). I buy softcover versions of hardback leatherbound books for the same reason, to avoid damaging my more expensive and decorative copy with casual reading or travel.

Point is, I didn't buy the limited edition because I had any great need for the rules contained within, and that's true for a great many people who buy limited editions. They're not purchased for the rules. If it was solely about a need for the rules then they'd buy the much cheaper and much easier to get army book. Limited editions, on the other hand, are purchased out of the desire to own a rare item or for the decorative value.

Katastrophe
26-10-2015, 14:10
I think we all know there won't be a sell out of the Seraphon book. Not because it's unnecessary for play but because there are simply less players invested in the game. Limited Editions have never sold because they were needed but because they were wanted. Die hard fans buy the pretty edition as a collector item not because it provided additional value in game. I don't get it but it's not for me so I don't try to understand that side.

The real reason AoS limited editions are getting sold is the same as why their regular editions aren't, fewer players. GW books have never been about the rules, generally that's been about 1/10 the total pages, sometimes even less. We're someone to want to save money they could take their prior edition army book and a pen and note the rule changes which were generally very minimal (points generally). Buying new ABs was about getting those other 9/10 of the book, which lately began being a real rehash of cut and paste.

Ultimately, regardless of ones thoughts on AoS, there is a trend toward less players not more, hence the declining sales. Even places were there was 30-40 WFB players are now down to 20 odd and alternative games like KoW have gone from zero to 10-12. That's a negative trend for AoS from WFB with their now former players opting for other games and GW doing nothing to recapture that market.

As for market dump of their product. No one dumps or discounts products that sell at full price. That's bad business. What people do is dump products that don't sell so that they can stick products that do. Churn is a necessity in retail. Sitting stock is money lost. A product that sits on your shelf for 3-4 months while other products are being sold (or could be sold were they being stocked instead) is a opportunity cost. To the business. It's better to sell at cost product A to make room for product B that you can sell faster even at a slightly lower profit margin per unit.

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 14:15
Point is, I didn't buy the limited edition because I had any great need for the rules contained within, and that's true for a great many people who buy limited editions. They're not purchased for the rules. If it was solely about a need for the rules then they'd buy the much cheaper and much easier to get army book. Limited editions, on the other hand, are purchased out of the desire to own a rare item or for the decorative value.

I'm sure thats true of a few people but I literally know no one that buys books for decorative value. Maybe that's because the groups I have played in have been primarily gamer-gamers that only buy what they absolutely have to to play.

I'm not arguing that there arent fewer players overall. There are fewer players. And yes Kings of War is now more popular because it is basically oldhammer with a few different rules so it appeals to those that loved the 2000s and 6th/7th edition - but again here our Kings of war players are largely also not buying the rulebook because they don't need to.

If the statement is its not selling out so that means AoS has fewer players - I probably wouldn't argue that. If the statement is its not selling out so that means its tanking I don't agree because there are a lot of people playing it just not buying books for it, same as there are a lot of people playing KOW now but not buying books for it either.

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 14:19
If the statement is its not selling out so that means AoS has fewer players - I probably wouldn't argue that. If the statement is its not selling out so that means its tanking I don't agree because there are a lot of people playing it just not buying books for it, same as there are a lot of people playing KOW now but not buying books for it either.

And yet Kings of War rulebooks are​ selling out. Their initial print run sold out within a week, which is saying quite a bit, given that they had a much larger initial print run than all the AOS limited editions combined, and Kings of War is put out by a much smaller company than GW.

Katastrophe
26-10-2015, 14:25
And yet K ings of War rulebooks are​ selling out. Their initial print run sold out within a week, which is saying quite a bit, given that they had a much larger initial print run than all the AOS limited editions combined, and Kings of War is put out by a much smaller company than GW.

Kings of War are on back order at most stores in my state. That doesn't include all the folks that got the Kickstarter order.

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 14:30
Interesting thing to wonder about - how many books did mantic release with their print run?

Deadhorse
26-10-2015, 14:46
Limited AoS books not selling? No one buys them because the rules are free!
But KoW books ARE selling? Well, they probably printed 10 of these and that's how it's sold out!
Retailers selling AoS online for 50% of RRP? Probably retailers are stupid or are getting a gargantuan discount from GW!
Overwhelmingly negative online reaction? Why, the internet is full of vocal haters and whiners. They're not representative of the community.
Huge majority of forumites report AoS as DoA or dying in their local stores? Selection bias. Also, haters and whiners.
Little activity/posts on AoS forums and AoS FB? The game is so simple and so much fun, people prefer to play it than talk about it!

Nothing to see here, you hallucinated the trainwreck. Move along!

UndeadKing
26-10-2015, 14:49
All this stores cutting stock etc doesn't really mean anything. If you're not interested in the two forces in the box you wont buy it. The box has nothing in it you need. The rules you can download for free so another non buy. The starter set was always gonna lose money. Cutting price like the indie stores are doing wont affect gw as they got their cash. Independents are just costing themselves more cash loss. A thing gw is likely happy about

Katastrophe
26-10-2015, 14:51
Limited AoS books not selling? No one buys them because the rules are free!
But KoW books ARE selling? Well, they probably printed 10 of these and that's how it's sold out!
Retailers selling AoS online for 50% of RRP? Probably retailers are stupid or are getting a gargantuan discount from GW!
Overwhelmingly negative online reaction? Why, the internet is full of vocal haters and whiners. They're not representative of the community.
Huge majority of forumites report AoS as DoA or dying in their local stores? Selection bias. Also, haters and whiners.
Little activity/posts on AoS forums and AoS FB? The game is so simple and so much fun, people prefer to play it than talk about it!

Nothing to see here, you hallucinated the trainwreck. Move along!

Hilarious. The "Pro-AoS" folks have the "best" arguments.

Coraxis
26-10-2015, 14:52
Limited AoS books not selling? No one buys them because the rules are free!
But KoW books ARE selling? Well, they probably printed 10 of these and that's how it's sold out!
Retailers selling AoS online for 50% of RRP? Probably retailers are stupid or are getting a gargantuan discount from GW!
Overwhelmingly negative online reaction? Why, the internet is full of vocal haters and whiners. They're not representative of the community.
Huge majority of forumites report AoS as DoA or dying in their local stores? Selection bias. Also, haters and whiners.
Little activity/posts on AoS forums and AoS FB? The game is so simple and so much fun, people prefer to play it than talk about it!

Nothing to see here, you hallucinated the trainwreck. Move along!

Or that us evil haters are driving them away with or negativity lol

aprilmanha
26-10-2015, 15:00
I think at this point it might be best if we just go back to talking about Warhammer and making our own 9th ed rather then talking about AOS so much :P

Katastrophe
26-10-2015, 15:06
All this stores cutting stock etc doesn't really mean anything. If you're not interested in the two forces in the box you wont buy it. The box has nothing in it you need. The rules you can download for free so another non buy. The starter set was always gonna lose money. Cutting price like the indie stores are doing wont affect gw as they got their cash. Independents are just costing themselves more cash loss. A thing gw is likely happy about

Except that an inability to sell the starter box likely means they can't sell the unit boxes either of the current "new" models. As for selling the repackages, an indie that is sitting on old boxes of the old armies have no need to buy repackages from GW since they can sell current stock which they've already paid for. Hence still no sales for GW. A thing GW is unlikely to be happy about.

Katastrophe
26-10-2015, 15:12
Liberators and Judicators boxes are $36. The only box that is close to retail is Paladins at $53. The starters aren't the only things getting reduced

Holier Than Thou
26-10-2015, 15:14
I never said anything about AoS being a success or a failure though :) I'm saying a lot of people are playing the game, many are even buying new models (i know in our group we have five new players now and all bought brand new armies up to 20 pts of azyr from the gw store) but few if any are buying the books simply because they don't want to spend $50+ on an art / story book (I find that it is a truly small percentage of people that actually care about the narrative, in our group there may be 2 or 3 people out of 30 that can tell you anything more than the basic warscrolls tell you as far as the story is concerned) that has nothing to add to the game.


I'm confused. Haven't you been saying for weeks/months that you and your gaming group have been playing AOS because it allows you to play narrative-driven scenarios which is what you have all wanted for years but couldn't get because of 8th? You're now saying hardly anyone cares about the narrative? Which is it?

Buddy Bear
26-10-2015, 15:17
All this stores cutting stock etc doesn't really mean anything. If you're not interested in the two forces in the box you wont buy it. The box has nothing in it you need. The rules you can download for free so another non buy. The starter set was always gonna lose money.

If that's the case then how come I've never found Island of Blood, Battle for Skull Pass, or any other Warhammer Fantasy starter set for 50% off? And the starter set was always going to lose money? Is that what you really believe? That GW purposefully made a product with the intention of losing money on it? That they didn't think their Sigmarines would be the "Next Big Thing" (TM) and would make all the fans come running for a copy of the starter set? You really think they put Sigmarines into the box and expected it to lose money for them?


Cutting price like the indie stores are doing wont affect gw as they got their cash. Independents are just costing themselves more cash loss.

How do you figure? Do you really think that if they could have made 100% of the price they wouldn't have? They aren't selling it for 100% of the price because nobody's buying it at 100% of the price. Nobody's buying it at 80%. Some of them have had to go down to 50% of the price because that's the only way they can shift those boxes and recoup some of their money. So no, they're not costing themselves more cash, because there isn't more cash to get out of those boxes.


A thing gw is likely happy about

Why would GW be happy about that? If those retailers decide AOS won't sell, then they'll never restock it again, which means that those stores will have no AOS stock available in the future whatsoever. GW needs retailers to carry their product not for three months, but for a whole year, and the year after that, and the year after that. What good does it do them to have three months of sales if those sales cost them their future relationship with those retailers and harms their ability to sell their products in those stores in the future? Moreover, what of the following do you think that GW should be happy about?

1) Retailers unable to move stock. Do you think that's something GW should be happy about, that AOS can't be sold without massive discounts?
2) Retailers unwilling to commit to future buys. Do you think GW would be happy knowing that retailers will stop carrying AOS and maybe even other products of theirs in the future, limiting GW's sales in those areas?
3) AOS being massively discounted everywhere on the internet, killing any potential direct sales from the GW website. Do you think that GW's happy that people can go online and buy the box for $60 from an independent retailer through Amazon, thus ensuring that nobody will ever buy it for $125 direct from them?

I'd be interested in hearing why you think any of that would make them happy.

Comrade Penguin
26-10-2015, 15:33
All this stores cutting stock etc doesn't really mean anything. If you're not interested in the two forces in the box you wont buy it. The box has nothing in it you need. The rules you can download for free so another non buy. The starter set was always gonna lose money. Cutting price like the indie stores are doing wont affect gw as they got their cash. Independents are just costing themselves more cash loss. A thing gw is likely happy about

Obvious troll is obvious :rolleyes:

Some more anecdotal evidence: The two LGS's I frequent no longer carry AOS. Magic/Xwing rules one of those stores and the other has an eclectic mix of 40K, warmahordes, magic, and KOW.

Ben
26-10-2015, 15:43
All this stores cutting stock etc doesn't really mean anything. If you're not interested in the two forces in the box you wont buy it. The box has nothing in it you need. The rules you can download for free so another non buy. The starter set was always gonna lose money. Cutting price like the indie stores are doing wont affect gw as they got their cash. Independents are just costing themselves more cash loss. A thing gw is likely happy about

I can see your point, and while GW would welcome the extermination of independent retailers in the UK, where they have sufficient market penetration to have stores in every city and a lot of towns, in the US, where even a city like New York has a single one man store, they need independent retailers to keep communities alive.

Age of Sigmar underlines that GW doesn't understand the US market at the moment, whereas previously they very obviously did (Outrider programme, Ardboyz and tournament support, etc).

If you accept GWs figures, which haven't got an established provenance considering GW brag about not doing market research, then 20% of their customers are gamers, and half of the remainder aspire to game. So 60% of customers either game or want to game.

Gaming is a social activity, you require other people to do it. This is where stores are important in the US. In the UK people tend to have clubs at schools, universities, and after you leave education, somewhere that sells booze (again GW missing a trick not doing a Bugmans Ale and selling it, ditto T-shirts, mugs and key rings).

In the US that means stores though. It is why Friday Night Magic is a huge driver for Magic sales. It is why X-wing rules come with a standard play format as well as scenarios, to allow for competitive and narrative play.

Competitive play has metas and this drives sales. For X wing there was a period where everyone was running 4BZ lists or interceptor swarms or whatever, and subsequent releases shook that up (Tie Advanceds have recently made a big come back).

Warmahordes does this better than 40k, because new releases are spread across all the factions, whereas in 40k you would have an army go ten years with no updates. The GW solution was to buy a new army for a faction that got regular updates and got good stuff and when that got left behind, buy another.

Screwing over the indies by selling them a crap product that gathers dust on shelves and you have to sell at wholesale prices to get rid of may seem like a good idea to you, but GW are getting dropped by a lot of indy retailers. Which means product support gets dropped, and instead of there being 40k night, suddenly it's Bolt Action, or Saga, or Infinity, or X-wing.

So GW lose out on repeat sales to indys.

And no, starter sets generally don't lose money unless the game is a failure. Dark Vengeance was tooling for 3 sprues. GW sold tons of them. They completely sold out of their limited edition run pretty quick.

Hobbit wasn't a good seller. Again, it was a limited edition release in 2012, and it still hasn't sold out now. It was tooling for 4 sprues (though smaller than the DV sprues and two were reused for the Goblin town goblins set and goblin town scenery set).

Selling a product people don't need or want generally isn't a good idea, and GW should have thought long and hard about who they were trying to sell Age of Sigmar to before sinking huge amounts of resource into it.

The key test is how many customers GW have lost for 40k with Age of Sigmar, because there have been a number of reports from stores of the Age of Sigmar effect dropping 40k sales as well.

williamsond
26-10-2015, 16:07
it's a strange occurance thats for sure, I know my buddy who had an indy retailer in the uk was always getting fed up with being forced to stock stuff that didn't move in his store but unfortunatley had to order under the draconian trade terms GW imposed. The stuff that he sent back after the last hobbit release was astonishing, I'm not sure about the trade terms now but at one point you had to order so many units of new stuff released every month to qualify for better trade terms.

as a side note the travelingman store in newcastle was overwhelmed with AoS stuff, when I asked if they had sold many copies a couple of weeks ago, they laughed and said not likely is has sat there since release and no one's buying it. They had a lot of left over copies of execution force too (and even a single copy of island of blood) it looks like neither were as well recived as they had hoped when ordering stock.

Deadhorse
26-10-2015, 16:14
AFAIK 40k sales have stopped growing and started shrinking a while back. One store owner said that what he experienced was this cycle of: sales stagnate - GW releases completely OP new codex - sales increase temporarily - then he sees people switching to other systems complaining about imbalance.

So the poor 40k results might actually be a continuation of that trend plus the fact that we just went through several months of AoS releases, and I'd expect that to be more at fault than a grudge born of AoS.

Berik
26-10-2015, 16:35
I'm confused. Haven't you been saying for weeks/months that you and your gaming group have been playing AOS because it allows you to play narrative-driven scenarios which is what you have all wanted for years but couldn't get because of 8th? You're now saying hardly anyone cares about the narrative? Which is it?

Golden:D.

Please remind us HelloKitty, where exactly is this group of yours located? Or just is it even real? Are you real?

Katastrophe
26-10-2015, 16:37
Golden:D.

Please remind us HelloKitty, where exactly is this group of yours located? Or just is it even real? Are you real?

Report in

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2


1

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 17:27
Being open to narrative gaming and actually reading the books and caring about the narrative are two totally different things. Yes - the group I play with largely is open to narrative gaming, but most of them don't actually read much of the narrative for any of the games that they play. You can be open to narrative gaming and not read the narrative believe it or not. Just like you can be a super optimizer power gamer that also reads the books and narrative as well, but just doesn't adhere to that when they play the game itself for optimization reasons.

I've gone into great lengths and discussion on the group I play with, and why Age of Sigmar opened things up for us, through five or six lengthy posts, and I'm not going to repeat it again since obviously its either not read, or is totally ignored.

Thanks for making warseer one of the greatest ad hominem places to visit though :)

Holier Than Thou
26-10-2015, 17:42
Thanks for making warseer one of the greatest ad hominem places to visit though :)

Not sure if this was directed at me, I shouldn't think so since all I've done is query a statement that seemed to massively contradict what you had previously said on a number of occasions.

So what is the narrative motivation for these people who have bought brand new armies but aren't interested in their new army's background. What made them choose their army? Looks alone? I'm genuinely interested as it seems strange to me to invest so heavily in something while simultaneously having absolutely no real interest in the background of it.

Lars Porsenna
26-10-2015, 17:52
IMHO I wonder if people are just using different definitions for the term "narrative." The definition would seem to be simple (i.e. tells a story). But how and at what point that story is told seems to be the disconnect? IMHO, what HelloKitty is talking about with the term is a game that tells a story somehow, rather than playing to GW's canned narrative for the setting...

Damon.

Captain Idaho
26-10-2015, 17:53
I'd hazard a good guess that Hellokitty's group is far, far from normal. 5 people who bought that extortionate fortress? Even out of 60, that is a wealthy percentage.

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 17:58
There are a number of reasons why people get involved with armies in wargaming. Narrative is one sure but not one I find to be very common.

*Appearance - they love how those models look

*Thats what the guy that got them hooked in had to offer - so they play that army

*Playstyle - the army fits a particular way of playing that they enjoy

*Power level - at the tournament level this is often the #1 point of consideration. I know a lot of tournament players that couldn't tell you much about 40k's universe other than they know that eldar have high powered options and grav guns are over optimized for their points so you should take a lot of them.

* Its the army no one else plays - a lot of guys have that hipster urge to collect the army no one else likes to collect to be different

I haven't found background to be particularly a big thing pretty much ever except in historical circles. Though I do find battletech players often are fiends for their narrative as well. Warhammer I'd say in my experience maybe 1 in 2 knows a little narrative and 1 in 4 go deeper, and about 1 in 6 actually reads some of the novels.

So to answer the question, "what is the narrative motivation for these people who have bought brand new armies but aren't interested in their army's background", i'd say the answer is there is no narrative motivation. They are just open to narrative style of play. They'd also be open to tournament style of play. They just like to play and hang out and socialize.

The contention in the past was that most of our players can only play once a month or so due to family, real life, etc, and are going to play at events where most people are playing, and before that was tournaments before the tournament guys all quit GW for kings of war and infinity. Now that the tournament guys are all doing tournaments with other systems, the other event in town was the narrative campaign, and so they are playing that because thats where all the players are now.

But again - being open to playing in narrative style with multiple scenarios with multiple win conditions from scenario to scenario enforcing multiple builds is not the same as being invested in the game's background. Those two things can and are often mutually exclusive (going back again to the tournament players I know that read a lot of the books but would never play narratively because its not optimal and they don't want to have to play a game where they are discouraged from building optimized lists, though they are great fans of the literature)

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 18:02
IMHO I wonder if people are just using different definitions for the term "narrative." The definition would seem to be simple (i.e. tells a story). But how and at what point that story is told seems to be the disconnect? IMHO, what HelloKitty is talking about with the term is a game that tells a story somehow, rather than playing to GW's canned narrative for the setting...

Damon.

I'd wager you are correct. Some people hear "narrative game" and assume that the players are all diehard into the narrative, but I don't find that true at all. Narrative game is a style, much like powergame or tournament game is a style or way to play.

As to my group being far from normal, you'd have to conduct a poll on what is and is not normal.

Humans tend to socialize with other humans that like similar things. Gamer-gamers run in packs with gamer-gamers. To a gamer-gamer, people who spend a lot of money on scenery pieces would probably indeed be abnormal. I say that because most gamer-gamers I know are happy to play with wooden pogs or bottle caps representing their guys; the aesthetic does not matter to a lot of them. As we hang out with people of like mind, it is easy to develop confirmation-bias, where the people we hang with do the things we do so people that do things we don't do seem weird and not normal.

My group has a lot of modelers and hobbyists. A lot of the people that are at our GW store every weekend may play a game of 40k or Age of Sigmar 3 or 4 times all year. The rest of the time they are hobbying.

Our armies on parade last weekend had a lot of entries. That is where a large chunk of the people I know personally spend their time, so to me thats not abnormal because these people bought chaos fortresses to model and maybe break out once a year whereas none of the gamer-gamers I know buy much of anything except when they have to and they certainly would never buy a fortress even if it were 25% of the cost because those aren't part of standard games.

I know next year it is planned to run a scenario with 2 or 3 of the fortresses on a massive table representing 2 or 3 realms converging, which will be an epic game but also probably not something that is normally done in most places (and likely this will be the only time i ever witness such a thing)

Captain Idaho
26-10-2015, 18:53
You'd live a very sheltered life if you thought normal gamers had space and money for that fortress.

Bloodknight
26-10-2015, 18:56
I don't know if sales of the starter really say that much. There are compendiums for more than a dozen armies that people already have tons of miniatures for, the rules are available for free, so if you're not into Khorne or Stormcasts, why would you buy it apart from the background.
I think we will find out more once the new armies are released, with all new models and such.

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 19:10
Most gamers I know own their own houses and have gaming rooms and display areas.

Now had I been in my early 20s I would agree, most normal gamers I hung out with would definitely not have had space or money for that. But most of my peers are in their late 30s to early 50s and have careers and decent disposable income and have plenty of space for it.

To determine what a normal gamer is we would need to conduct several polls. I'm not certain anyone knows what the average economic level of a normal gamer is to be honest.

rmeister0
26-10-2015, 19:13
Wasn't there a suggestion many months back that GW had given some retailers the AoS boxes for 'free' because they tried to return them and GW just didn't want that (storage costs I assume) so they just let them keep them without charging them. If this was the case then large discounts are possible because it is al profit (minus the overheads).

It costs more money to actually receive the product back than it is to destroy it or dump it.

For the retailer, if they overbought the starter set it that inventory would be taxable assets (at least in the US). Dumping them, even at a loss, could be advantageous from a tax perspective.

Coraxis
26-10-2015, 19:18
There are a number of reasons why people get involved with armies in wargaming. Narrative is one sure but not one I find to be very common.

*Appearance - they love how those models look

*Thats what the guy that got them hooked in had to offer - so they play that army

*Playstyle - the army fits a particular way of playing that they enjoy

*Power level - at the tournament level this is often the #1 point of consideration. I know a lot of tournament players that couldn't tell you much about 40k's universe other than they know that eldar have high powered options and grav guns are over optimized for their points so you should take a lot of them.

* Its the army no one else plays - a lot of guys have that hipster urge to collect the army no one else likes to collect to be different

I haven't found background to be particularly a big thing pretty much ever except in historical circles. Though I do find battletech players often are fiends for their narrative as well. Warhammer I'd say in my experience maybe 1 in 2 knows a little narrative and 1 in 4 go deeper, and about 1 in 6 actually reads some of the novels.

So to answer the question, "what is the narrative motivation for these people who have bought brand new armies but aren't interested in their army's background", i'd say the answer is there is no narrative motivation. They are just open to narrative style of play. They'd also be open to tournament style of play. They just like to play and hang out and socialize.

The contention in the past was that most of our players can only play once a month or so due to family, real life, etc, and are going to play at events where most people are playing, and before that was tournaments before the tournament guys all quit GW for kings of war and infinity. Now that the tournament guys are all doing tournaments with other systems, the other event in town was the narrative campaign, and so they are playing that because thats where all the players are now.

But again - being open to playing in narrative style with multiple scenarios with multiple win conditions from scenario to scenario enforcing multiple builds is not the same as being invested in the game's background. Those two things can and are often mutually exclusive (going back again to the tournament players I know that read a lot of the books but would never play narratively because its not optimal and they don't want to have to play a game where they are discouraged from building optimized lists, though they are great fans of the literature)

Mmm... 4 of those 5 things are "game" based not "collection" based...I thought that GW was more for collectors than gamers...

Captain Idaho
26-10-2015, 19:28
Most gamers I know own their own houses and have gaming rooms and display areas.

Now had I been in my early 20s I would agree, most normal gamers I hung out with would definitely not have had space or money for that. But most of my peers are in their late 30s to early 50s and have careers and decent disposable income and have plenty of space for it.

To determine what a normal gamer is we would need to conduct several polls. I'm not certain anyone knows what the average economic level of a normal gamer is to be honest.

Every gaming group I've ever been to and tournament I've attended has had people who do not come close to your experience. At all.

And I thought GW didn't want older, veteran gamers? (Not a comment I recall you saying but it's what people who sit on the pro-AoS side of the fence have often said)

***

Anyway, I saw what you said about narrative gamers. I'd class myself as a gamer who enjoys the story of the battle but there is no way I feel AoS tells it better than other versions of Fantasy.

Niall78
26-10-2015, 19:47
Most gamers I know own their own houses and have gaming rooms and display areas.

Now had I been in my early 20s I would agree, most normal gamers I hung out with would definitely not have had space or money for that. But most of my peers are in their late 30s to early 50s and have careers and decent disposable income and have plenty of space for it.

To determine what a normal gamer is we would need to conduct several polls. I'm not certain anyone knows what the average economic level of a normal gamer is to be honest.

It's strange a group of that age, experience and wealth allowed itself to be bullied and intimidated for years if they attempted any sort of narrative game started in your area. When you were talking about the physical intimidation, internet slandering and black-balling by games stores organisers I assumed a lot of your group were much younger players. Having well educated 30-50 year old men getting bullied by a store employee, random local guy in the hobby or standing for internet slander without reaction is positively bizarre.

Baragash
26-10-2015, 20:08
Interesting thing to wonder about - how many books did mantic release with their print run?

First print run was 8,000 copies. Second print run was 8,000-10,000. They've already had to order the third print run.

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 20:09
I never said anything about physical intimidation or bullying. Just event organizers not wanting to share so stirring the pot and causing drama and making a point that it was looked down upon for people to play in other groups outside of their own or saying things like the narrative group is teaching people how to play wrong and when those players would play in real games (tournament games) that they'd be stomped on for learning wrong.

In fact when you mentioned calling the police i responded that there was nothing to call the police about.

Slander is all around you every day. Most people don't give a reaction to it unless it involves themselves being slandered. Most people simply don't care, want to show up and play a game, and go home. They largely don't care about the drama or the politics. They will just go where everyone else goes.


Every gaming group I've ever been to and tournament I've attended has had people who do not come close to your experience. At all.

When I was in my 20s and did nothing but tournament, i would say most by a good number of players were also in their 20s, which also meant most probably didn't own their own houses yet.

I found that when people started hitting their 30s that the number of tournaments they attended started dropping exponentially and it was rare to see someone in their late 30s or older playing in any tournaments. So that you say that does not come close to your experience does not surprise me. We also have a pool of 20 somethings that are primarily tournament based, and the oldest guy there i think just turned 32. Certainly when I was in my 20s I rarely saw someone older than that at the store or in a tournament so largely didn't think they existed either.

The older guys tend to not be as visible as they are in their houses in their game rooms instead of needing to be at the store so much. I discovered this when I was in my mid 30s and our group started gravitating towards friends' gaming rooms for non-campaign events (the public campaign events still happen in stores)

I would say the crowd at the GW store here averages about 28 years old, but the ones that bought the fortress for example are 35 - 42 years old.


Mmm... 4 of those 5 things are "game" based not "collection" based...I thought that GW was more for collectors than gamers...

Well the question was based on narrative gaming and why in a gaming context an army would be chosen, not on the non-gaming aspects of the hobby overall.

Spiney Norman
26-10-2015, 20:23
You'd live a very sheltered life if you thought normal gamers had space and money for that fortress.

It kind of depends what you mean by 'normal gamers', if you're talking about 11-15 year olds that are too young to have a job and rely on parents and presents to fund their hobby then sure, but most of the 'normal gamers' at my club are 18+ with full time jobs, many of them are single and some still live at home so they have little else to spend their disposable income on. Many of the guys at my club spend vastly more on their hobby than I do, and I bought a few bits of the dreadhold (slowly growing).

I guess looking at my family and the hobbies my brothers are into (archery and electric guitars) war-gaming doesn't really seem too expensive by comparison. I could buy the complete circular dreadhold + 8 towers for the amount of money my younger brother just spent on his new ibanez...

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 20:26
I could buy the complete circular dreadhold + 8 towers for the amount of money my younger brother just spent on his new ibanez...

Yep. Our guitarist just bought an ESP for $2000. Thats just the guitar. And dude is a delivery driver for fed-ex so he's not rolling in cash. Though ironically he does say he'd love to get into miniature wargaming but its too expensive ;)

Niall78
26-10-2015, 20:55
I never said anything about physical intimidation or bullying. Just event organizers not wanting to share so stirring the pot and causing drama and making a point that it was looked down upon for people to play in other groups outside of their own or saying things like the narrative group is teaching people how to play wrong and when those players would play in real games (tournament games) that they'd be stomped on for learning wrong.


This is what you posted only last week :

Being slandered, aggressively ripped into on our social media, aggressively ripped into at the store for promoting a style of play that isn't what the person deems "proper", attempts at dividing the community and creating an "us vs you" atmosphere in the area which makes people uncomfortable as its dramatic. Having players unofficially "banned from a store" if they were a part of outside events that weren't "proper".

and

If the event organizer for a store is anti narrative scenarios and you try to promote narrative scenarios, there is a good chance they are going to get hostile in some form. Either directly (rare) or passive aggressively.


You've stated these as the reasons why there was no 'narrative gaming' in your area for years. If such behaviour stops people narrative gaming for years it is bullying and intimidation. It seems incredible that a large group of 30-50 year old men would allow themselves to be bullied and intimidated into not gaming a certain way for years in a geographical area that encompasses six gaming stores.

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 21:16
I could agree that its bullying. I don't see the intimidation part. The 30-50 year old men are not being bullied or intimidated. They are simply not caring, and are going where the majority of people are going.

The only people that you could say are being bullied are the event organizers of the narrative events. The participants themselves, which m ake up the bulk of the attendance, don't give two damns about who is being bullied or who is being slandered, they just want to play a game and go home and will go to the events that have the largest number of players.

Directly hostile does not necessarily mean physically intimidating, though I suppose I didn't make that clear so that could be taken that way. An example of directly hostile would be the time one of the event organizers from the tourney group posted a nasty attacking comment in the narrative group. That is directly hostile as opposed to passively aggressive hostile which is to talk bad about someone behind their back or not around that person, or make nasty comments away from that person.

The reason there were no narrative events for years (as opposed to 2-3 guys playing in someone's house which is not an event) is because the tournaemnt organizers and tournament players outnumbered the non, and the guys in the middle (the bulk of the event attendance) went to where the most players were (the tournaments).

Events don't function very well when there are only 2-3 people present.

The narrative organizers were constantly ripped into for promoting a form of game that the tournament guys deemed "not real 40k" or "not real whfb".

Dosiere
26-10-2015, 22:02
Interesting thing to wonder about - how many books did mantic release with their print run?

I don't know but remember that the rules are not free. The actual rulebook includes 3 very important sections not included in the free rules. It has all the scenarios, the magic item list, and the full army lists.

The free rules include enough to let people give the game a true taste but if you like it chances are buying at least the gamers edition is kind of a no brainier for the price. It's selling out because it's a good game at a good price, with the chance to try it for free before buying anything. So it's not quite in the same boat as AoS. aoS wants to charge you for the scenarios, but for whatever reason AoS players aren't really biting. My guess is that the price is just too high for a game like AoS.

Smooth Boy
26-10-2015, 23:06
I think at this point it might be best if we just go back to talking about Warhammer and making our own 9th ed rather then talking about AOS so much :P

Yeah, they weren't kidding when they said the Warhammer board had turned into nerdy Jerry Springer.

Ben
26-10-2015, 23:56
Well the thread has had the desired effect and the stock levels for those stores have gone down, helping to get them to liquidate their Age of Sigmar stock.

HelloKitty
26-10-2015, 23:56
I don't know but remember that the rules are not free. The actual rulebook includes 3 very important sections not included in the free rules. It has all the scenarios, the magic item list, and the full army lists.

The free rules include enough to let people give the game a true taste but if you like it chances are buying at least the gamers edition is kind of a no brainier for the price. It's selling out because it's a good game at a good price, with the chance to try it for free before buying anything. So it's not quite in the same boat as AoS. aoS wants to charge you for the scenarios, but for whatever reason AoS players aren't really biting. My guess is that the price is just too high for a game like AoS.

Nobody wants to pay $50+ for scenarios is really what it boils down to. A lot of people on facebook groups say they are waiting and hoping that gw releases them on the app for much less.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Spiney Norman
27-10-2015, 00:03
Nobody wants to pay $50+ for scenarios is really what it boils down to. A lot of people on facebook groups say they are waiting and hoping that gw releases them on the app for much less.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You might want to try updating your app, they already have done that. Almost all the scenarios are available either individually or as part of a 'battle pack' through the AoS app.

Gonefishing
27-10-2015, 00:20
When I was in my 20s and did nothing but tournament, i would say most by a good number of players were also in their 20s, which also meant most probably didn't own their own houses yet.

I found that when people started hitting their 30s that the number of tournaments they attended started dropping exponentially and it was rare to see someone in their late 30s or older playing in any tournaments. So that you say that does not come close to your experience does not surprise me. We also have a pool of 20 somethings that are primarily tournament based, and the oldest guy there i think just turned 32. Certainly when I was in my 20s I rarely saw someone older than that at the store or in a tournament so largely didn't think they existed either.

The older guys tend to not be as visible as they are in their houses in their game rooms instead of needing to be at the store so much. I discovered this when I was in my mid 30s and our group started gravitating towards friends' gaming rooms for non-campaign events (the public campaign events still happen in stores)

I would say the crowd at the GW store here averages about 28 years old, but the ones that bought the fortress for example are 35 - 42 years old.


I am 38 the people I play with reguarly are 39/40 + and many of them are homeowners - we do normally play in those homes rather than stores (which is probablly more of a UK thing anyway [and as a side note propablly about a third of the people I have met/played against in the major UK tournies were 40+]). None of these people have a gaming / display room, models are generally stored in cases etc under the bed in the spare room/attic. We arent collectors, although a few of us are hobbyists - but we are united in the fact that we dont want to leave our toy soldiers all over the house, we want to pack them away neatly until its time to play a game with them - so yes, storage space is an issue even for middleaged homeowners (especially when they have kids etc etc.)

The ironic thing I find about this, is whilst playing dropzone with one of these friends just yesterday (an old git like me who owns a nice big 4 bedroomed house) we had a discussion about how good the scenery (buildings) that come with the two player starter are - because they can be folded up and stored so easily :)

jet_palero
27-10-2015, 00:30
For those who are fans of Age of Sigmar in the US, there are bargains to be had as stores drastically drop the price on stock they can't sell.

US - RRP - $125

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B010TUEMOA/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Available for just under $70 - a 40% saving.

However elsewhere in the world....

UK - RRP - 75

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B010TUEMOA/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1445813013&sr=8-1&keywords=age+of+sigmar&condition=new

Available for 60 - a 20% saving

Germany - RRP - 100 Euros

http://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B0111JZI96/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=toys&ie=UTF8&qid=1445813775&sr=1-1&keywords=age+of+sigmar&condition=new

Available for 80 Euros - a 20% saving.

What does this tell us?

What we pretty much already know. Age of Sigmar is not doing well in the US market and stores are dumping stock for whatever they can get back for it.

The UK is either doing better, or since there are far more GW stores and fewer LGSs stock GW products they have been protected from the Age of Sigmar effect (instead cashing in on Warmahordes, X-wing, Frostgrave, KoW, infinity, batman, etc). I've not personally seen evidence of AoS doing better here, but there could be legions of shy gamers out there who play it but don't talk about it and order their stuff online direct from GW (which would, to be honest, be exactly how GW want it).

On the other hand, for those who do like the game, there are bargains to be had and you can help get LGS's who were promised that AoS would sell and be a success out of the hole they are in sitting on a pile of stock no one will buy.

That's some hefty discounts. $70 seems about the right price for a starter set for wargaming though. I'm rarely willing to spend more than that spontaneously. All these games that cost $125 are just brutal on the wallet. I think that's why kickstarter does so well, you feel like you're getting more for your money as an "investor" (even if you're not).

Also, the reviews are hilarious, they look like they could have been written by the two sides of this forum.

1 star: "I hate it and it killed my dog."
5 star: "Its better than sex!"

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 00:40
You might want to try updating your app, they already have done that. Almost all the scenarios are available either individually or as part of a 'battle pack' through the AoS app.

Ah cool - even less of a reason to shell out $50+ for scenarios. You can already get them through the app. (I don't use the app so I'm not sure what it does)

silashand
27-10-2015, 01:16
Hell I wouldn't take aos if I was paid to...

I bought two sets of the chaos figs from the starter on eBay for $35 each to use as cultists in my Alpha Legion army. Pretty good deal and they are perfect for that since I have plenty of excess laspistols lying around...

draccan
27-10-2015, 01:40
I wonder... at what point does it start to become trolling, when someone writes many hundreds if not thousands of posts over a relative short time span to defend a game, with obvious red flares such as saying how AoS is flying of the shelves and how gaming group is buying tons of full size fortresses... at what point does it cease to be posting/communicating and become trolling...

just wondering....

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 02:00
I guess that would depend on the emotional fragility of someone who could truly be emotionally damaged because others are reportedly buying items that they dont agree with.

Id advise that individual to not look at any fb aos groups because the hobby pictures of aos armies being bought and chaos fortress pieces being painted and displayed, particularly with armies on parade having just passed, may cause that person to have an emotional melt down if they consider discussion on people buying said items legitimately trolling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Khaines Wrath
27-10-2015, 02:14
Yep. Our guitarist just bought an ESP for $2000. Thats just the guitar. And dude is a delivery driver for fed-ex so he's not rolling in cash. Though ironically he does say he'd love to get into miniature wargaming but its too expensive ;)

My brother has always been a musician, its a cripplingly expensive hobby. Weirdly he said's the same thing about wargaming but he is happy enough for me to buy miniatures that he can use. Its interesting the things we consider worth our money.

As for the main topic I strangely agree with HelloKitty.

The AoS starter and books were doomed to failure as soon as the rules were made available for free because unless you want the miniatures or the expensive rule book as a collectors item I don't see why you would not just spend your money on miniatures you do like.

I'm near certain that AoS will be a failed product but the true test will be in the miniature sales once the new armies start arriving.

Yrch
27-10-2015, 02:56
Yeah the Starter Sets really collect dust in most stores but calling 20% off "dumping", lol.
I could have bought the AoS set for 10-15% cheaper day 1 through online retailers or other Hobby Stores.
I'd really like to know how well the other AoS things sell (Campagnie books/Battletomes) compared to the starter box.

Buddy Bear
27-10-2015, 02:57
Yeah the Starter Sets really collect dust in most stores but calling 20% off "dumping", lol.

Interesting how you ignore the instances where starter sets are being sold at 50% off.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 03:08
All of the books here have not really sold at all. Only a couple of people bought any. The rest sit on the shelves untouched because people aren't going to shell out the asking price for pictures and storybook and some scenarios when they can pull the app up and get the warscrolls for free and the scenarios for much cheaper.

Yrch
27-10-2015, 03:19
Interesting how you ignore the instances where starter sets are being sold at 50% off.

Interesting how it seem you have nothing better to do in your life than hating in a forum on a game that you dont like instead of doing your hobby.

I don't know how low a common discount is in other countries
In Germany, 15-20% discount is pretty common for Miniature stuff, be it GW, Privateer or FFG so there is nothing "special" about that.

jet_palero
27-10-2015, 03:31
My brother has always been a musician, its a cripplingly expensive hobby. Weirdly he said's the same thing about wargaming but he is happy enough for me to buy miniatures that he can use. Its interesting the things we consider worth our money.

As for the main topic I strangely agree with HelloKitty.

The AoS starter and books were doomed to failure as soon as the rules were made available for free because unless you want the miniatures or the expensive rule book as a collectors item I don't see why you would not just spend your money on miniatures you do like.

I'm near certain that AoS will be a failed product but the true test will be in the miniature sales once the new armies start arriving.

GW says their customers are the people buy their stuff to collect it, not to game with it. Whether the rules are free or not shouldn't matter to such people. I've seen people say they spent quite a lot to complete their collection of End Times books. Those are the type of customers GW wants for AoS.

Khaines Wrath
27-10-2015, 04:12
GW says their customers are the people buy their stuff to collect it, not to game with it. Whether the rules are free or not shouldn't matter to such people. I've seen people say they spent quite a lot to complete their collection of End Times books. Those are the type of customers GW wants for AoS.

Don't get me wrong, I spent the vast majority of my time in this hobby purely collecting army books and codex's because I was always interested in new characters, new units, changes to the armies and new fluff directions, for better or worse.

I didn't collect the End Times books because I hated the directions they went with it. I also have no interest in the Sigmarines or Khorne affiliated chaos. But Im considering picking up any books for future armies, one will probably be enough to see if I like the new setting but until then I'm sceptical.

I was more agreeing that the books and starter set wont necessarily be the indicator of the games failure or success as much as it will be proof of GW's idiocy in releasing pointless, expensive products for a game that right now is essentially free to start if you have all the miniatures you need.

I would argue that a large part of the initially horrendous sales has been the overwhelmingly negative reaction to the Sigmarine faction which is truly the only new thing we have seen from the game.

Buddy Bear
27-10-2015, 05:00
Interesting how it seem you have nothing better to do in your life than hating in a forum on a game that you dont like instead of doing your hobby.

You're right, that is interesting. And you can thank Age of Sigmar for that. It takes two to do my hobby, which Age of Sigmar made it harder to do, as it killed the Warhammer Fantasy scene here. We used to have weekly games, we used to have monthly tournaments, but now not anymore. Instead now we have a bunch of former players who eBay'd their armies and another bunch totally disgusted in general and playing other games in the meantime because they've lost interest in playing anything resembling Warhammer after they saw their favorite setting was killed dead. I'm slowly trying to build a Kings of War scene, but that takes time. Until then, I have plenty of time to talk about how frustrated I am with Age of Sigmar as Age of Sigmar has left me with a lot of excess time which I didn't have before.


I don't know how low a common discount is in other countries
In Germany, 15-20% discount is pretty common for Miniature stuff, be it GW, Privateer or FFG so there is nothing "special" about that.

Again you totally disregard the 50% discount being offered by several retailers. That's not a common discount by any stretch of the imagination anywhere in the world. The only time I've seen discounts even approaching that, it's when game stores were having fire sales trying to permanently clear their shelves of stock. That discount is so low that retailers are losing money cutting prices that low. And that is something worth considering about how Age of Sigmar is doing financially. We live in the internet age, so it doesn't matter if there's no Age of Sigmar gaming scene in their local area, because those retailers could sell those boxes to people across the country for a price they could turn a profit off of. That they don't, and are instead prepared to take a financial loss off of selling those boxes, tells you all you have to know about the overall health and financial well-being of Age of Sigmar as a game system. To sum up:

Successful products are not sold at a loss. Failed products are sold at a loss.

SuperHappyTime
27-10-2015, 06:25
You're right, that is interesting. And you can thank Age of Sigmar for that. It takes two to do my hobby, which Age of Sigmar made it harder to do, as it killed the Warhammer Fantasy scene here. We used to have weekly games, we used to have monthly tournaments, but now not anymore. Instead now we have a bunch of former players who eBay'd their armies and another bunch totally disgusted in general and playing other games in the meantime because they've lost interest in playing anything resembling Warhammer after they saw their favorite setting was killed dead. I'm slowly trying to build a Kings of War scene, but that takes time. Until then, I have plenty of time to talk about how frustrated I am with Age of Sigmar as Age of Sigmar has left me with a lot of excess time which I didn't have before.



Again you totally disregard the 50% discount being offered by several retailers. That's not a common discount by any stretch of the imagination anywhere in the world. The only time I've seen discounts even approaching that, it's when game stores were having fire sales trying to permanently clear their shelves of stock. That discount is so low that retailers are losing money cutting prices that low. And that is something worth considering about how Age of Sigmar is doing financially. We live in the internet age, so it doesn't matter if there's no Age of Sigmar gaming scene in their local area, because those retailers could sell those boxes to people across the country for a price they could turn a profit off of. That they don't, and are instead prepared to take a financial loss off of selling those boxes, tells you all you have to know about the overall health and financial well-being of Age of Sigmar as a game system. To sum up:

Successful products are not sold at a loss. Failed products are sold at a loss.

I think it says just as much about the hobby stores. They expected these to sell like hot cakes and bought a bunch, not realizing the set is designed as a starter, a product that was designed to sit on the shelf and lure new people in until the next edition.

Aside, the set should have been properly MSRP'd at $100 anyway. I might actually go buy a copy now.

Buddy Bear
27-10-2015, 06:36
That's not how starters are supposed to work. They're not poster ads. They're starter sets. Their purpose isn't to sit on a shelf gathering dust until the next edition change, but to be purchased and used in games. To get people started on the hobby. And when the numbers on the shelves start running low the FLGS owners order new ones and replenish their numbers. The whole purpose is to have a revolving door of starters being sold, replaced, and sold again. The same was true of Island of Blood, Battle for Skull Pass, Dark Vengeance, etc. The only difference here, apparently, is that Age of Sigmar isn't selling as well as any of those others, and is sitting around collecting dust, hence retailers having to slash prices so drastically to get these boxes moving out the door.

Bloodknight
27-10-2015, 07:54
Successful products are not sold at a loss. Failed products are sold at a loss.

That depends entirely on the product, actually. Gaming consoles tend to be loss leaders, for example :).


The same was true of Island of Blood, Battle for Skull Pass, Dark Vengeance,

All of those included a rulebook that you needed to play (and brought you a bunch of miniatures for roughly the same price as the big book, also the small book was more practical for gaming purposes than the big tome), which you don't for AoS. If you don't like the stuff in the box, you buy something else and download the rules for free.

Captain Idaho
27-10-2015, 08:13
Why would GW bother creating a STARTER set if it doesn't matter if it gets sold? It's incredible how much people who like AoS can't accept facts and instead make a new excuse every time.

Deadhorse
27-10-2015, 08:15
Dear Zealots of Sigmar, you can make up any inplausible argument you want, but the fact is that multiple stores selling the AoS starter at 50% off online (yes, 50%, if it was up to 20% discount, no one would see this as odd) says everything about the "success" of this game. And answers the question whether it sold as well as GW expected, given that GW sets the supply based on their expectations.

So let's recap:
No, it's not discounts of up to 20%. Multiple online vendors accross the world, discounts at 50% (which only looks kinda like 20% if you see it upside down and in a mirror).
No, GW starter sets are not underpriced like gaming consoles, and GW's pricing policy is easy to verify by checking that their website has AoS at $125. Or go into a GW store. The discounts are offered by FLGS who are getting rid of AoS stock, not by the company trying to lure people into the hobby.
No, FLGS did not "mistakenly expect it to sell like hot cakes and overstocked", the owners I know got an amount based on previous WFB sales, because they are businesspeople and not brainless monkeys. They did not buy much and they are stuck with it anyway. Also, as stated above, it is GW that controls supply of their product and any excess stock in circulation reflects the failure of the game to sell as well as GW hoped.

What other silly excuses will you come up with?

Spiney Norman
27-10-2015, 09:00
I wonder... at what point does it start to become trolling, when someone writes many hundreds if not thousands of posts over a relative short time span to defend a game, with obvious red flares such as saying how AoS is flying of the shelves and how gaming group is buying tons of full size fortresses... at what point does it cease to be posting/communicating and become trolling...

just wondering....

Probably the same point where someone continuously posts many hundreds if not thousands of unnecessarily negative post over a relatively short time to attack a game they have never played and have no intention of doing so. The certainly have been people doing what you describe and they have been banned (remember Alexis?) HK is no sycophant, he is just reporting from a group where AoS is moderately successful, as am I. Trolling is more about the intent behind the poster anyway, it's being sarcastic or cynical with the intent to belittle others and I've not seen any of that from HK.



What other silly excuses will you come up with?

I don't think we need to make excuses, just lap up the discounted sets for the game we enjoy playing, the righteous indignation of the anti-AoS crowd is finally working to my advantage lol ;) personally I've not found anywhere in the UK offering anywhere near that level of discount, but if I did I can see myself spending a heck of a lot of money.

Ben
27-10-2015, 09:04
I think it says just as much about the hobby stores. They expected these to sell like hot cakes and bought a bunch, not realizing the set is designed as a starter, a product that was designed to sit on the shelf and lure new people in until the next edition.

Aside, the set should have been properly MSRP'd at $100 anyway. I might actually go buy a copy now.

GW went incredibly hard sell on Age of Sigmar. Bear in mind for GW to rate AoS as a success they just have to sell it to stores, no customers have to buy it.

Hard sell tactics and big promises on sales to stores meant some stores believed their reps saying it was as big as 40k, or that the store in the next town had ordered 80 starter sets (hilarious when they tried that in Iceland, where there is one store in the whole country).

GW pushed Age of Sigmar incredibly hard. Think about the new logo on their HQ, or the giant gold sigmarine outside it (with the space marine being exiled to under the stairs).

Yowzo
27-10-2015, 09:04
I guess that would depend on the emotional fragility of someone who could truly be emotionally damaged because others are reportedly buying items that they dont agree with.

Id advise that individual to not look at any fb aos groups because the hobby pictures of aos armies being bought and chaos fortress pieces being painted and displayed, particularly with armies on parade having just passed, may cause that person to have an emotional melt down if they consider discussion on people buying said items legitimately trolling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Spanish AoS group doesn't even average a post a day.

The 9th age group has quite a lot of traffic, actually there are at least 5 9th age events in November alone, and the biggest warhammer league in Madrid (goblintrader) will switch to 9th age starting December.

So there are huge regional differences here.

williamsond
27-10-2015, 09:53
I have bought all the 5th edition dungeons and dragons books after I had downloaded and played with the free rules (and you can easily play with only the free rules online never buying anything else) why? bescause its' a good game and the books are full of really well written rules fluff and exposition .

I have bought all the KoW books (after trying the free rules online)while I could chose to play with only the free stuff online, why? Because it's a good game and the book is well put together and full of really good stuff.

I bought the mech warrior starter set after playing with the free online rules and paper mechs, why? because it was agood game...

I downloaded the AoS rules played a few games and never botherd to buy anything, why? because its just not a very good game and when looking at others books they seemed to have very little text and be full of the same pictures of sigmarines and reused photos from white dwarf.

the point I'm trying to elaborate is that giving rules away on line will not effect sales of hardback rules books or starter sets, people like to own printed copies and if the price and the content is right well buy them anyway. Hell we have only one DM in my D&D group but all six of us have the DMG and MM.

Captain Idaho
27-10-2015, 10:10
If you ggenuinely like AoS then you should be concerned about it's commercial failure. Unless you buy enough models to cater for all of us who aren't etc. Which we know is not happening.

I'd like to see what happens if GW cut their losses and pulled the plug - I doubt we'd see many AoS fans trying to keep the game alive like Fantasy.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 10:33
Why would GW bother creating a STARTER set if it doesn't matter if it gets sold? It's incredible how much people who like AoS can't accept facts and instead make a new excuse every time.

Up is down and down is up to many posters here.

It doesn't matter if the stater sells on not nobody needs it. It doesn't matter if independent stores lose their shirt stocking AoS they'll certainly order AoS stuff again. Gamers wont buy narrative fluff books because they don't need them for what fans say is a narrative game. Collapse of the tournament scene worldwide - happy days no more WAAC players. Warhammer World AoS tournament is cancelled because GW forgot about Christmas. Narrative gamers aren't interested in narrative fluff books. Scenario books aren't need for what fans claim is a scenario driven game. Prices have only gone up a bit compared to last month.

There isn't a mental hoop some won't jump through to defend a fatally flawed and failing product.

Captain Idaho
27-10-2015, 10:44
Ha ha brilliant.

People hate to admit they are wrong or were ripped off so they'll lie to themselves and fight the world to convince everyone that they aren't suckers.

Yrch
27-10-2015, 10:46
If you ggenuinely like AoS then you should be concerned about it's commercial failure. Unless you buy enough models to cater for all of us who aren't etc. Which we know is not happening.

I'd like to see what happens if GW cut their losses and pulled the plug - I doubt we'd see many AoS fans trying to keep the game alive like Fantasy.

Yep, good job on that supporting your game to the point where the manufacturer pulled the plug because it wasn't profitable.

Buddy Bear
27-10-2015, 10:47
I feel so, so sorry for the people who went all in on the Sigmarines and bought a truckload of them. What are they going to do with those models when AOS is put down? Maybe hope that Mantic puts out a large metal golem army for Kings of War?

Niall78
27-10-2015, 10:54
Yep, good job on that supporting your game to the point where the manufacturer pulled the plug because it wasn't profitable.

What wasn't profitable?

Of course even if a product isn't profitable in the market - which WFB was - it would take a great business brain to blame the customers for that market failure. Especially if that product had been market leader for nearly thirty years before its sales collapsed.

Buddy Bear
27-10-2015, 11:23
So when AOS gets the plug pulled on it within a year or two, are you going to place the blame on yourself, Yrch?

Spiney Norman
27-10-2015, 11:30
If you ggenuinely like AoS then you should be concerned about it's commercial failure. Unless you buy enough models to cater for all of us who aren't etc. Which we know is not happening.

I'd like to see what happens if GW cut their losses and pulled the plug - I doubt we'd see many AoS fans trying to keep the game alive like Fantasy.

Obviously I'd prefer to see AoS become a commercial success and continue for years, because that would give me more models to buy and paint and play with (I also don't really see any concrete evidence that the game is going to be discontinued oth than a few LGS that misjudged their stock). However, even if it doesn't I still have the game, I can still play the game and I've still had many hours of enjoyable painting and modelling, which is what I really paid for in the first place (more so than warhammer because I haven't had to pay out hundreds of pounds on rule books and army books to play the game with). Literally all my outgoing so on AoS have been on models and hobby materials, so from my perspective it is actually giving me better value than warhammer used to.

At the end of the day I still play warhammer fantasy, it's also a great game, although in different ways, and all things considered, AoS does actually fulfill my hobby-aims better than wfb did.

A store discounting a product is not necessarily an indication of a product's failure, my local Indy stockist does not normally offer any discount on GW products but is struggling to shift the tau rampart set at a reduced price (and that sold out to preorder in minutes), he still has two out of three sets on the shelf, he's also struggling to shift the Ravenguard force but he's so far not had to discount a single AoS product.

Here is the picture he posted on the store FB page
221781

Captain Idaho
27-10-2015, 12:58
It's not an indication of success though, is it.

All the various indications we've seen point to AoS being much more of a flop than success.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 13:05
It's not an indication of success though, is it.

All the various indications we've seen point to AoS being much more of a flop than success.

It's an indication that some people will buy full price from a shop when they could get 50% off on-line through multiple different sellers.

aprilmanha
27-10-2015, 13:21
Here is the picture he posted on the store FB page
221781

Once it hits 50 then I would be interested :) thats how much its worth to me anyway :D

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 13:25
The Spanish AoS group doesn't even average a post a day.

The 9th age group has quite a lot of traffic, actually there are at least 5 9th age events in November alone, and the biggest warhammer league in Madrid (goblintrader) will switch to 9th age starting December.

So there are huge regional differences here.

Could be! Though one of the groups has a lot of Italian players. The other has a lot of UK posters. I have a few age of Sigmar groups in my fb feed that get a handful of new posts a week, and there are two (One is just called Age of Sigmar, the other Warhammer: Age of Sigmar) that get a lot of posts every day. Age of Sigmar has 14 new posts since going to bed, and Warhammer: Age of Sigmar has 25.

75hastings69
27-10-2015, 13:30
Batman Arkham City Limits has hundreds :)

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 13:32
Cool. I've been in warhammer groups for years and I haven't been in a group that has hundreds before, so to me 15-25 posts overnight is pretty normal and average.

Comrade Penguin
27-10-2015, 14:17
For some reason I'm reminded of the violinists playing as the Titanic sank...

Look I am happy for you guys if AOS is success in your area, but it takes some mighty mental gymnastics to ignore the signs that the game has failed globally.

Cheeslord
27-10-2015, 14:26
Currently I can't see any AoS starter set for significantly less than 60 (20% off) on EBay in the UK. I guess at least here there is no oversupply / underdemand situation. I guess this makes sense as the most of the major reports of AoS success in gaming groups seem to be coming from the UK (and international shipping costs limit the ability of the situation to average out internationally)

Mark.

chrism
27-10-2015, 14:31
For some reason I'm reminded of the violinists playing as the Titanic sank...

It's worse that that. Its like David (mantic etc.) vs Goliath, but in this story Goliath has thrown the rock at himself.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 14:33
The starter set didn't do too bad here, but it was no where near what DV or Island of Blood were. That being said, a lot of people I know buy DV or Island of Blood for the mini rulebook because they don't want to shell for the big rulebook, and the smaller rulebook is much more portable.

The AoS starter box would only appeal to someone wanting stormcast or khorne models. There is no mini rulebook and no other reason to buy the starter box that there were in starter boxes past. It is not a surprise to me that it was not a phenomenal success. Barring space marines, I can't think of any race in any of their games that would sell out tons of boxed sets without anything else in them.

I can't think of any item in the past that was just models with no rules or anything that sold phenomenally well either.

To me the AoS starter box is on par with an army box for any race as opposed to a traditional starter box that we are used to for new editions of the game.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 14:41
The real question is whether indies are reordering stocks.

Even if they aren't discounting current stock, for GW to make money, the indies would need to churn stock and order new stock for sale.

Until Jan we won't have any clue what GWs sales have been like (and then it'll still be guesswork) but looking at local stores and seeing whether they are restocking AoS will be telling. The local stores in my area aren't restocking. They also are only ordering 1 of everything unless there is a special or preorder. They've stated they won't restock sold models boxes. Thus a set of dead sales for GW.

This is what GW would want to heavily avoid as they need LGSs stocking and restocking their product, particular when LGSs are stocking competing products.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 14:49
I'd say mostly not. They've already hit the saturation point for the people that wanted stormcast or khorne models. The box offers nothing else to anyone else so to me there shouldn't be a massive wave of demand for it any longer.

Now - had the rules not been freely obtained and the starter box come with smaller cheaper rules, I'd be interested to see how well the box moved. I'm betting a little bit better.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 14:55
To me the AoS starter box is on par with an army box for any race as opposed to a traditional starter box that we are used to for new editions of the game.

It's branded as the starter set for AoS by GW on their website. So whatever you think it is intended to be it actually is the introductory product to Warhammer:AoS - the starter set.

That you only think it holds the value of an army box is neither here nor there.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 15:10
Its an opinion held by many people - the consumers of the product. What GW has it labeled as is fine. The starter box for AoS is nothing more than an army box for stormcast and khorne. For people not interested in either force, why on earth would they buy this box? I know a ton of people that bought DV or island of blood that had no interest in the starter contents other than - the rulebook. There's literally nothing in this box that is appealing to anyone other than stormcast or khorne fans.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 15:16
Its an opinion held by many people - the consumers of the product. What GW has it labeled as is fine. The starter box for AoS is nothing more than an army box for stormcast and khorne. For people not interested in either force, why on earth would they buy this box? I know a ton of people that bought DV or island of blood that had no interest in the starter contents other than - the rulebook. There's literally nothing in this box that is appealing to anyone other than stormcast or khorne fans.

Like I said GW call it a "starter box" on their website and in other promotional material. What you want to misrepresent it as is neither here nor there. It's not like we can't see with our own eyes what the 'Warhammer:AoS Starter Set' is advertised as by its very creators. It's not really a point of debate.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 15:27
The point of debate being that it is labeled as a starter box but unlike every other starter box for 20 years before it, it only will appeal to those wanting one of the two races in it, whereas the starter boxes 20 years before it had material that players wanted that may not have wanted those two races in it.

That its being used as a crutch to prop up the argument that the whole AOS is failing because the starter box isn't blowing off of shelves is obvious. I'm pointing out a reason why a lot of people are NOT buying the starter box. Much like people are not buying the books. Because they do not need them and people often don't buy things that they don't need unless they are super fans.

If mantic released a starter box that was two armies and that was it, and when it failed to blow off of shelves because the only people willing to buy it were fans of those two races, I'm willing to bet that it being used as some kind of red herring to indicate the overall success of the game by a KOW critic would be called out by those willing to use the AOS "starter box"'s status as indicator of success or failure of the overall game as well.

Of course mantic would never market like that. If they did they would produce multiple starter boxes that had all of the races in them, not just two. Because GW's marketing division is run by clowns and Mantics is not.

Ronin[XiC]
27-10-2015, 15:28
Well there actually IS a lot of stuff in the box for new players.
Like the rules already nicely printed.
Some ****** background.
Some dice.
2 armies to start a friend with

etc.


You're compeltely talking out of your head kitty.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 15:31
Its an opinion held by many people - the consumers of the product. What GW has it labeled as is fine. The starter box for AoS is nothing more than an army box for stormcast and khorne. For people not interested in either force, why on earth would they buy this box? I know a ton of people that bought DV or island of blood that had no interest in the starter contents other than - the rulebook. There's literally nothing in this box that is appealing to anyone other than stormcast or khorne fans.

Why though when the rule book was cheaper than the box? Did those same people go on to build either or both of those armies.

I bought a coupe of the Bret Lizard box (I think that's what that was) years ago and went on to build both armies. Neither of which I had any real desire for prior. I am sure neither army in that box was intended only for people playing those forces prior. I don't recall exactly but I think lizarmen were non-existent in that form at that time (the prior slann were lizards but the army and models were completely different).

I'd hazard a guess that it was GWs hope that people would heavily invest in the Sigmarines.

Holier Than Thou
27-10-2015, 15:37
Kitty, you are listing things that Games Workshop have released for their new game, saying you understand why people aren't buying them and yet still saying AOS will/could be a success. How is it possibly going to succeed if Games Workshop keep releasing things that people don't want to buy? Starter sets that aren't really starter sets, rule books that contain the same rules as Games Workshop happily advised us all we didn't need to pay for, dice shakers that cost almost 30, a combat gauge (read piece of plastic) for a similar price. Surely if Games Workshop want it to succeed a good starting point would be to release things people DO need/want???

Kahadras
27-10-2015, 15:39
That its being used as a crutch to prop up the argument that the whole AOS is failing because the starter box isn't blowing off of shelves is obvious. I'm pointing out a reason why a lot of people are NOT buying the starter box. Much like people are not buying the books. Because they do not need them and people often don't buy things that they don't need unless they are super fans.

Doesn't this then lead to another problem of exactly what are people buying for AoS? If they aren't picking up the starter set then, obviously, they aren't interested in the two factions that GW have produced for AoS (as it's cheaper to buy a starter set than buy either army seperately). So if people don't buy the starter set, the new factions GW have created and don't buy the books then exactly what are they getting?

Denny
27-10-2015, 15:40
Why though when the rule book was cheaper than the box? Did those same people go on to build either or both of those armies.

I bought DV because I wanted a small rulebook (I don't like the hardbacks rulebooks). I figured I could either sell the models or give them to mates (which I did in some cases) or they could sit in my bits box as a future project.

I am actually working on some Chaos stuff now (insert shameless plug for my painting blog), but this is several years later.
When I bought DV it was exclusively for the rulebook. Had the rules been free I would not have bothered.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 15:44
Kitty, you are listing things that Games Workshop have released for their new game, saying you understand why people aren't buying them and yet still saying AOS will/could be a success. How is it possibly going to succeed if Games Workshop keep releasing things that people don't want to buy? Starter sets that aren't really starter sets, rule books that contain the same rules as Games Workshop happily advised us all we didn't need to pay for, dice shakers that cost almost 30, a combat gauge (read piece of plastic) for a similar price. Surely if Games Workshop want it to succeed a good starting point would be to release things people DO need/want???

I'm not arguing with you. They do need to start releasing things people do want.

They need to stop the trickle down repackaging of a race every 3 months so that it takes 2 years to get everything repurposed. They are going to lose a ton of people on that alone. The novels speak heavily of the duradin (dwarves), the elves (aelves), the seraphon, etc, and because they don't have new models and new rules, people run around the internet saying they are squatted. This misinformation spreads and GW could stop it if they'd just stop the trickle thing and release the new stuff for everyone to generate excitement.

They need a new marketing department and people that actually have a clue.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 15:46
Doesn't this then lead to another problem of exactly what are people buying for AoS? If they aren't picking up the starter set then, obviously, they aren't interested in the two factions that GW have produced for AoS (as it's cheaper to buy a starter set than buy either army seperately). So if people don't buy the starter set, the new factions GW have created and don't buy the books then exactly what are they getting?

Here - they are buying the other factions that they want. But that won't last as long I don't think. IF the new material is being ignored because its free and GW is allegedly sitting on a mountain of new models but wants to trickle them down, they are losing a lot of interest quickly. I see it happening now and I have a positive group. These guys aren't drifting away to kings of war either, they simply are getting out of wargaming because nothing out there is worth their attention to them..

GW has a great opportunity but they are letting it slip with inept marketing.

aprilmanha
27-10-2015, 15:50
Sorry HelloKitty, I have to disagree with you here.

The AOS Starter box is the same as previous starter kits.
Even if it is lacking features that should have been included does not change that.

Your argument about it only appealing to existing collectors of those races could be applied to every starter kits GW has ever done, in which case GW has never done a Starter Kit from your perspective.

The Starter box is a product aimed at getting a new player into the game (hopefully with a friend).
The fact that every starter box has also appealed to collectors of the forces included in the box (as a budget way to boost a collection) is only a side effect.
It still contains everything for 2 people to start playing the game (excluding hobby tools) just like every previous Starter Kit.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 15:50
Why though when the rule book was cheaper than the box? Did those same people go on to build either or both of those armies.

Speaking for the people over the many years I've seen this happen with they'd find people that wanted the models and split the cost of the box just to get the book or put the models up on ebay or our local "ebay". I've seen that probably about 100 times over the past 20 odd years.

That little rulebook in the box was a primary reason people bought the boxes, here at least, though I've read that a lot on forums as well.

Remove the little rulebook from the box and I'm not surprised sales suck for the box.

SuperHappyTime
27-10-2015, 16:01
Kitty, you are listing things that Games Workshop have released for their new game, saying you understand why people aren't buying them and yet still saying AOS will/could be a success. How is it possibly going to succeed if Games Workshop keep releasing things that people don't want to buy? Starter sets that aren't really starter sets, rule books that contain the same rules as Games Workshop happily advised us all we didn't need to pay for, dice shakers that cost almost 30, a combat gauge (read piece of plastic) for a similar price. Surely if Games Workshop want it to succeed a good starting point would be to release things people DO need/want???

His point is that if we as customers don't need/want any of this stuff, is the starter kit lacking sales a quality metric for the game's failure?

Until the GW investors report tells us what they make from everything, it's as good a metric as we can get. It's also proof positive that GW has been horribly overpricing their product above market value.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 16:03
Speaking for the people over the many years I've se en this happen with they'd find people that wanted the models and split the cost of the box just to get the book or put the models up on ebay or our local "ebay". I've seen that probably about 100 times over the past 20 odd years.

That little rulebook in the box was a primary reason people bought the boxes, here at least, though I've read that a lot on forums as well.

Remove the little rulebook from the box and I'm not surprised sales suck for the box.

That's a lot of work to save 20 dollars.

I don't suppose those are same folks buying $1000 dollar terrain and that are price insensitive to model costs.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 16:05
Its not just about saving $20. Its about portability. The little rulebook here has always been vastly more popular because it was just the rules and it was paperback and small and traveled easy.

The big book had a bunch of stuff that most people never even looked at. I can't count the number of times people didn't realize there were other scenarios in the back of the 8th edition big rulebook because other than the rules and core scenarios, the narrative and other scenarios and hobbying etc part of the rulebook is largely (vastly) ignored by most of the people I personally know so the smaller book was much more desirable.

And honestly the going rate for that book here was $25. That was a substantial savings over the full priced large rulebook.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 16:09
I bought DV because I wanted a small rulebook (I don't like the hardbacks rulebooks). I figured I could either sell the models or give them to mates (which I did in some cases) or they could sit in my bits box as a future project.

I am actually working on some Chaos stuff now (insert shameless plug for my painting blog), but this is several years later.
When I bought DV it was exclusively for the rulebook. Had the rules been free I would not have bothered.

So you paid 100 dollars for a rule book that cost 75 because it was smaller. Ok.

Holier Than Thou
27-10-2015, 16:10
His point is that if we as customers don't need/want any of this stuff, is the starter kit lacking sales a quality metric for the game's failure?

Until the GW investors report tells us what they make from everything, it's as good a metric as we can get. It's also proof positive that GW has been horribly overpricing their product above market value.

And MY point is if Games Workshop keep releasing things that people don't want or need, surely that's an excellent measure of how successful it is. Nobody wants it!

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 16:13
Or they want it but can get it for free so don't feel like paying GW prices for something they can also get for free because lets face it, we all know GW prices are much higher than most people want to pay.

Or they want it but GW hasn't released their race yet so they are waiting (the whole GW trickle down release schedule garbage)

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 16:15
Its not just about saving $20. Its about portability. The little rulebook here has always been vastly more popular because it was just the rules and it was paperback and small and traveled easy.

The big book had a bunch of stuff that most people never even looked at. I can't count the number of times people didn't realize there were other scenarios in the back of the 8th edition big rulebook because other than the rules and core scenarios, the narrative and other scenarios and hobbying etc part of the rulebook is largely (vastly) ignored by most of the people I personally know so the smaller book was much more desirable.

And honestly the going rate for that book here was $25. That was a substantial savings over the full priced large rulebook.

I understand paying 25 for the lil book but essentially people are paying 100 for IoB or DV box, going through the trouble of trying to sell the rest for 75 to get the lil book. When the big book is 75 and takes no effort. If someone wanted a "quick reference " they could simply photocopy the pages they need for they personal use.

Just seems like a lot of unnecessary steps to save a few dollars.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 16:17
And MY point is if Games Workshop keep releasing things that people don't want or need, surely that's an excellent measure of how successful it is. Nobody wants it!

We mustn't use absolutes or be accused of being trolls. You mean "almost nobody wants it" or "nearly nobody wants it" or "almost everyone doesn't want it"

Denny
27-10-2015, 16:19
So you paid 100 dollars for a rule book that cost 75 because it was smaller. Ok.

I live in the UK, so I paid . . .60 (I think; it was in 6th edition?) for a box set with miniatures and a rulebook, as opposed to paying 30 for a rulebook in a format I didn't like.
It simply seemed like a better deal. I figured I'd sell the stuff, give it away to people I like, or use it one day (which I eventually did) but if the rulebook had been free I would not have bothered.

Partly I suppose its my age. When I started you had to buy a new version of the box set to get the rulebook (and there was no ebay), so I'm used to getting a bunch of miniatures I might not need. I always found a use for them eventually, even if it was as a gift to someone who did collect the army (which is what happened to my lizardmen, empire troops, monopose Elf spearmen etc)

Kahadras
27-10-2015, 16:21
Here - they are buying the other factions that they want. But that won't last as long I don't think. IF the new material is being ignored because its free and GW is allegedly sitting on a mountain of new models but wants to trickle them down, they are losing a lot of interest quickly. I see it happening now and I have a positive group. These guys aren't drifting away to kings of war either, they simply are getting out of wargaming because nothing out there is worth their attention to them..


I honestly suprised people in your group have been so quick to hop into armies that haven't been updated yet. I expect that there'll be some reboxed Elves/Dwarves/Lizardmen/Undead/Orks over the comming months to go with the Stormcast, Chaos and Sylvaneth stuff that's already out but I think it's probably too little too late. GW are back to 40K now and, with the HH looming, I think that it's going to stay that way for a while (certainly over Christmas).

I sometimes think GW would have been better off kicking off AoS with a box set for each of the realms. Don't have a starter set but have each 'realm' box set come with a rulebook and a small fluff guide to the realm. For example Ghyran, realm of life, could feature a tree spirit/woodland creatures army let by human or elven druids. The fluff book would talk about the vast forests and impenatrable jungles of Ghyran and about how the races that inhabit the realm have had to adapt to a world that is ruled by nature. Do one for each realm and you have nine starter armies right there.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 16:28
They've been told by the gw store manager that none of the races are squatted despite what some people online are saying and they have taken him at face value and have bought the new armies (two lizardmen, an elf, a new chaos player, and a new undead player, plus we have three new stormcast players but those came out of the starter box)

I think realm boxes would be an excellent idea.

Holier Than Thou
27-10-2015, 16:28
We mustn't use absolutes or be accused of being trolls. You mean "almost nobody wants it" or "nearly nobody wants it" or "almost everyone doesn't want it"

You're almost absolutely right. What I meant to say was hardly anyone in the entire world wants hardly any of the almost completely useless stuff they have just about released so far.

Holier Than Thou
27-10-2015, 16:38
They've been told by the gw store manager that none of the races are squatted despite what some people online are saying and they have taken him at face value and have bought the new armies (two lizardmen, an elf, a new chaos player, and a new undead player, plus we have three new stormcast players but those came out of the starter box)

I think realm boxes would be an excellent idea.

Was that same GW manager selling people the 8th edition rulebook right up until it was removed from sale? I emailed GW about that when I had heard (on Warseer, not from GW) that it was being removed because it was still available to buy on the webstore. I noticed it was possible to add the items that were being removed to your basket without ANY notification that they were for the chop (the only notification was when you clicked into the item for more information there was a short sentence at the bottom of the page saying it was being removed). This was about 2 weeks before they were removed, no further notification was added to protect people from purchasing soon-to-be obsolete products.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 16:49
They've been told by the gw store manager that none of the races are squatted despite what some people online are saying and they have taken him at face value and have bought the new armies (two lizardmen, an elf, a new chaos player, and a new undead player, plus we have three new stormcast players but those came out of the starter box)

I think realm boxes would be an excellent idea.

Clearly they are unaware of the untrustworthy nature of his information. I suppose that is why the game playing public needs to continue to provide straight talk. I think everyone here knows that the GW sales teams are notoriously ill informed and worse than that, will blatantly lie about the status of products.

Kahadras
27-10-2015, 16:51
They've been told by the gw store manager that none of the races are squatted despite what some people online are saying and they have taken him at face value and have bought the new armies (two lizardmen, an elf, a new chaos player, and a new undead player, plus we have three new stormcast players but those came out of the starter box)

People from your club have been picking up the starter set so there has been some uptake for it even in your group. Looking at the starter set I'd be worried for AoS, if stores were dumping stock, as it represent great value for money when compared to general GW prices and if the starter sets aren't shifting then you can bet the new Stormcast and Khorne stuff isn't flying off the shelves either.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 16:52
Was that same GW manager selling people the 8th edition rulebook right up until it was removed from sale? I emailed GW about that when I had heard (on Warseer, not from GW) that it was being removed because it was still available to buy on the webstore. I noticed it was possible to add the items that were being removed to your basket without ANY notification that they were for the chop (the only notification was when you clicked into the item for more information there was a short sentence at the bottom of the page saying it was being removed). This was about 2 weeks before they were removed, no further notification was added to protect people from purchasing soon-to-be obsolete products.

That's nasty. I didn't know about that. And I thought this lack of communication had no upside for GW.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 16:56
People from your club have been picking up the starter set so there has been some uptake for it even in your group. Looking at the starter set I'd be worried for AoS, if stores were dumping stock, as it represent great value for money when compared to general GW prices and if the starter sets aren't shifting then you can bet the new Stormcast and Khorne stuff isn't flying off the shelves either.

If the starter set has bombed so badly that independents are selling it at break even or loss making prices they aren't going to be carrying any great amount of anything to do with AoS when the dust clears. Business people do not take a bath on a product then sink more money and time into it.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 17:08
I suppose that is why the game playing public needs to continue to provide straight talk.

The problem is that this straight talk is often also incorrect, and often filled with hyperbolic panic or out and out deceit too to help push a different game.

An excellent example would be from May on how the lizardmen were destroyed as a race and lizardmen players were up in arms over their race being squatted which the internet fed with a zeal unmatched by many.

"Yes but the internet says..." is a common phrase, and while there are some truths there are an equal number of misinformation disguised as truth where you don't know what to believe.

daveNYC
27-10-2015, 17:10
Plus GW likes to bundle it's products. So if you want X, you need to buy Y. Some stores are probably going to choose to not stock AoS at all, which might impact their ability to stock other GW products, which could mean a hit for 40k sales.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 17:54
The problem is that this straight talk is often also incorrect, and often filled with hyperbolic panic or out and out deceit too to help push a different game.

Of which I would say that I have done none of


An excellent example would be from May on how the lizardmen were destroyed as a race and lizardmen players were up in arms over their race being squatted which the internet fed with a zeal unmatched by many.

Yes, the internet has been known to be wrong. Well partially. As it stands, GW has simply stated that you can continue to use your old models (and they will keep trying to churn old stock through repackaging warehoused models). By selling people repackaged stock, GW is simply restating that you can continue to use your old models. That doesn't change Lizardmen (or Brets or Skaven) status as basically dead armies, which, to date, do not look to be getting updated with new models. Hell, Brets and Skaven, thus far, are in a worse boat as they have not had a new Army Book in near a decade (though Skaven at least got 2 new model kits in that time).

No, Lizardmen are not technically squatted but they are not technically getting updated either (which I could be proven wrong if the book substantially changes the current war scrolls and makes the army substantially different than it is currently or prints scrolls for yet unreleased models)


"Yes but the internet says..." is a common phrase, and while there are some truths there are an equal number of misinformation disguised as truth where you don't know what to believe.

And to be honest, taken as a whole, the internet generally has been far more correct that anything stated by a GW rep as it regards some future product. Yes, their are wacky totally unreliable internet sources cough:Faeit:cough but there are also some 80%+ guys on Warseer and Dakka that I would give far more credence to than anyone reporting what they heard from a GW store manager or GW sales rep. In fact, GW sales have been correct far closer to ZERO than 100% thus far (unless you count them stating that AoS is complete and no advanced rules are coming - which I believe to be the case).

Having a new player learn the hard way that "listening to GW on the subject of their future releases is foolhardy", I would say is irresponsible and I would tell any gamer to look on the internet and see how often GW reps have outright lied and misled for the sake of making a sale rather than being honest and saying I don't know or don't buy that as it is a dead purchase.

MDSW
27-10-2015, 18:00
My Boys and myself got started with the Skull Pass starter set. One of my sons wanted a dwarf army and the other wanted a Goblin/Orc army. So that worked well and they both went on to build bigger armies and we even bought another SP set to get more minis. This also prompted us to build many more WHFB armies and we enjoyed the rules, the minis and the game in general.

Along came IoB. We wanted the new rules and although no one had a burning desire to have Skaven or Elves, we jumped in becaue it was a good deal (this was before battalions and other sets went up over $100), so not only was it a good deal, you got the rules and the figures were actually really good sculpts. We bought at least 2 of these sets and even some of the figures only from ebay and such. This created a sizeable army of Skaven and Elves.

OK, along comes AoS. Again, with armies none of us of us are burning to collect, so there is no reason to buy it, because I can get the rules for free.

GW I believe misstepped here trying to get into the market of the recent game companies doing the same 'rules for free' deal. They have always said they are a miniatures company and this firmly put them into that arena. It has also saved them from having to balance all of the army books, so really makes the game upkeep much easier. On paper, this looked like a great strategy.

Unfortunately, in practice the destruction of the WHFB world, its army structure, the game play, the odd direction of the factions, the high price of the set and many other aspects was just too much for most people. The retatilers dumping the product at 50% off (whether or not it is at cost or at a loss really does not matter) are simply trying to sell the product at what the market will allow. The message is clear - AoS is not popular, it is not selling adequately (I guess in the US) and GW is probably still scratching their heads wondering what went wrong. I am not a GW hater, but anyone not seeing this as a bad sign for the release needs to take off their rose-colored glasses. Will it be the doom of GW? Who knows....

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 18:19
Of which I would say that I have done none of

I wasn't speaking directly about you - thats why I followed up with an example of what I was talking about.

Buddy Bear
27-10-2015, 18:24
I'd take The Internet over a GW Rep any day of the week. The Internet told us the Warhammer World was dying months in advance, while the GW Rep was trying to sell us Island of Blood a week before Age of Sigmar came out. And if your club believes that guy, when several armies have clearly been wiped from existence in the game world, which means they obviously are squatted, then I'd like to sell you all swamp land in Florida.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 18:34
Except that no, no one's army has been wiped from existence. They were renamed sure, but every model in existence has rules. They are only wiped out if you want to use that as a talking point to cheer on kings of war and get people to buy into the diaper rash that their army was somehow removed. Removed would be not having any rules for the models at all.

Just like for months it was all "the lizardmen have been REMOVED FROM THE GAME THEY ARE GONE!!!!" and now here we are with pre orders for their new army book and they have been repackaged.

But it did make a lot of people angry all those months to think that the game had removed them and it made a lot of people happy to push that agenda too without any real knowledge one way or the other didn't it?

It is GW's fault for not having any marketing team worth a **** but wow did the people who love to stir the pot have a field day with the lizardmen being squatted, and now with other armies being squatted. Made for a great selling point to get people to go to kings of war! "hey man lizardmen were removed from warhammer, i know this makes you mad but did you know kings of war will have lizardmen in it? You should toats go over there!" GW couldn't have given you a better pot to stir if they tried!

Ronin[XiC]
27-10-2015, 18:53
You're a "narrative" gamer and have problems accepting peoples struggles to find any hint of their Bret armies in the AoS "narrative"?

How is one supposed to be a "narrative" Bret player when THE WHOLE WORLD GOT DESTROYED AND EVERYONE ON IT IS NOW DEAD.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 18:54
Except that no, no one's army has been wiped from existence. They were renamed sure, but every model in existence has rules. They are only wiped out if you want to use that as a talking point to cheer on kings of war and get people to buy into the diaper rash that their army was somehow removed. Removed would be not having any rules for the models at all.

What you are saying is technically correct, However, Beastmen, Skaven and Brets would like to have a word about being "not squatted" but not being supported either. If I recall correctly, Dogs of War were never officially squatted (until AoS) since they technically could still be played in 8th Ed (since they had a 6th Ed rules update on the GW website or in the White Dwarf). I suppose Chaos Dwarfs got an actual squatting when they did not get an update for 6th Ed (though GW/Forgeworld eventually made the Formworld models official).

Being given a set of rules for the current edition is not really the same as supporting the army with new models and new units. Being allowed to play with your old models is unlikely to be deemed sufficient by most people. If definitely is unlikely to generate sales for GW.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 18:57
Just like for months it was all "the lizardmen have been REMOVED FROM THE GAME THEY ARE GONE!!!!" and now here we are with pre orders for their new army book and they have been repackaged.


Let's be fair and be honest about what was being said. Most people presumed that Lizardmen when flying off in their bubbles to space would reappear in AoS. There was a few that stated that they did not appear in what they were seeing or hearing but the escape for them was there. I mean they did fly off in spaceships in an escape from the warhammer world.

MagicAngle
27-10-2015, 19:01
Being given a set of rules for the current edition is not really the same as supporting the army with new models and new units. Being allowed to play with your old models is unlikely to be deemed sufficient by most people. If definitely is unlikely to generate sales for GW.

Agreed. I'm a narrative-type player for whom my army is more than just a bunch of minis with rules. It's the proud army of Averland. Averland has been destroyed. Hence, my army has been wiped from existence in AoS.

Buddy Bear
27-10-2015, 19:05
Except that no, no one's army has been wiped from existence.

Point out where the Empire and Bretonnia are, then.


They were renamed sure, but every model in existence has rules.

The Squats had rules in 2nd edition. They were squatted just the same. Having rules right now doesn't mean the army wasn't wiped out. Or are you claiming that Karl Franz and Valten are not only still alive, but they both possess Ghal Maraz, even bough the Celestant-Prime now owns Ghal Maraz)


They are only wiped out if you want to use that as a talking point to cheer on kings of war and get people to buy into the diaper rash that their army was somehow removed.

No, they're wiped out because they are all dead. The Empire was blown up. Bretonnia was blown up. The Grail Knights are gone. The grail is gone. The Lady of the Lake is gone. The Colleges of Magic are gone. The Engineers are gone. That's not a talking point. That's a stone cold fact. As for talking points to cheer on Kings of War, that's a funny thing coming from somebody who's outright lied in order to get people to buy into AOS. You sure seem to do a lot of what you accuse others of doing.


Removed would be not having any rules for the models at all.

Wow, the cognitive dissonance on display here is absolutely incredible. So you think their utter and total removal from the setting will have no negative consequences for the army in the long term? Tell me, when was the last Codex: Squats published? After all, their utter extermination in the setting doesn't necessarily mean they'd lose the ability to be playable in the rules, right? Oh... wait.


Just like for months it was all "the lizardmen have been REMOVED FROM THE GAME THEY ARE GONE!!!!" and now here we are with pre orders for their new army book and they have been repackaged.

Because they can exist in the new setting with the same models. The Empire can't. Bretonnia can't. The Chaos Dwarfs don't. Again, if they exist as-is, then please explain to us how Karl Franz is still running around with Ghal Maraz.


But it did make a lot of people angry all those months to think that the game had removed them and it made a lot of people happy to push that agenda too without any real knowledge one way or the other didn't it?

They have been removed. Having rules right now doesn't mean they haven't been utterly annihilated from the setting. As for agendas, you've made yours clear repeatedly, hence the lengths you go to to argue that somehow, the Empire and Bretonnia will always have support from GW... even though they've been utterly exterminated from the setting.


It is GW's fault for not having any marketing team worth a **** but wow did the people who love to stir the pot have a field day with the lizardmen being squatted, and now with other armies being squatted. Made for a great selling point to get people to go to kings of war! "hey man lizardmen were removed from warhammer, i know this makes you mad but did you know kings of war will have lizardmen in it? You should toats go over there!" GW couldn't have given you a better pot to stir if they tried!

No amount of marketing doesn't change the fact that, yes, several armies have been permanently removed from the setting. So once again, is Karl Franz still alive? Does Karl Franz still possess Ghal Maraz? Is Valten still alive? Does Valten still possess Ghal Maraz? Is the Lady of the Lake still alive? Is she still churning out Grail Knights? Where's the Tower of Hoeth churning out Swordmasters? Where're the engineers building Steam Tanks? By all means, show us the book which tells us that all of these things still exist in the Age of Sigmar setting. Because as of this moment, each and every one of those armies is in a worse position than the Squats in 40k 2nd edition, and we all know what happened to the Squats.

Captain Idaho
27-10-2015, 19:15
You're playing semantics if you think armies aren't being removed. The models are going to need a complete redesign and the rules for legacy models are not going to be around forever or ever touched again, as this would compete with their new models.

The changes in appearance of new releases points to complete overhaul.

So it's misleading to say "no armies are squatted" when you know damn well the legacy armies are unsupported and out of place.

Outrageously misleading in fact.

SuperHappyTime
27-10-2015, 19:31
You're playing semantics if you think armies aren't being removed. The models are going to need a complete redesign and the rules for legacy models are not going to be around forever or ever touched again, as this would compete with their new models.

The changes in appearance of new releases points to complete overhaul.

So it's misleading to say "no armies are squatted" when you know damn well the legacy armies are unsupported and out of place.

Outrageously misleading in fact.

The legacy armies are gone? When did they disappear from here (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer?N=102351+102386+4294965657&Nu=product.repositoryId&qty=12&sorting=phl&view=table&categoryId=cat440002a-flat)?

Gonefishing
27-10-2015, 20:17
Erm - well while the old armies still exist at the moment, GW have made it clear they wont..... http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/gw-answers-age-of-sigmar-questions.html?m=1

In which a GW representative states:




He acknowledges that the 'funny' rules are rather silly and don't make for a great intro to the system for new people. His response was that the armies in the box set don't have the silly rules. They're there as kind of a celebration and final send off of the old warhammer armies, and he said you might notice the new armies don't have the stupid noises or imaginary friends. This is deliberate, its designed that you'll only generally play the old stuff with your mates since it's a bit embarassing to play in a public place.

The new races will look different to the old ones. Ooruks will not look the same as the orcs we currently have. As such, when they get round to releasing Ooruks, the old models will cease production. He did say that you can still use your old models as ooruks, but you won't be able to buy normal orc boys again.


It seems pretty clear - the existing armies are ported over to allow play while they replace the ranges, (but given stupid rules to make them embarrassing to play in public and further entice buying new stuff ), but GW have stated that quite clearly that its intended to be a "celebration and final send off of the old Warhammer armies" They also state that as the new races are released not only will they look entirely different, but that the "Old models will cease production".

So yes - the old stuff still exists at the moment, and yes it still has rules so it an be used in game - but GW have made it quite clear they are only in place to allow people to keep playing with (and buying) the old product range until they get round to releasing the new ranges. Eventually everyone is going to be squatted and Lizardmen being repackaged does not equate to them getting a new AOS release, it just means the existing range is available to play for the moment (and that decision is probably because everyone thought the Lizardmen were being squatted and have been buying it in droves to finish off armies / resell for profit at a later date - so its probably been outselling the other Fantasy ranges since AOS was released).

Deadhorse
27-10-2015, 20:25
The legacy armies make very little sense in the AoS setting. Regiments of Averland troops with a steam tank or Balthasar Gelt leading them feel nearly as much out of place in the AoS world as a pair of Khador warjacks or a troop of Chronopia orcs. This makes people feel like their aremies have been squatted, because they don't fit now, and it seems pretty much impossible to "port" some miniature ranges (like Empire, Brets) into the AoS universe with a new codex.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 21:21
Ah but here there is a distinct difference. We weren't discussing people feeling that their armies were squatted, we were discussing actual models having no rules or no way to be used, ie squatted.

Now if we want to discuss the psychological effect of armies not fitting in the aesthetic, I'd fully support that claim and understand simply because while humans are in the narrative and appear by the narrative to just be normal middle ages dudes, there are no images or artwork to really allow viable conclusions to be drawn - other than stormcast flashbacks to previous lives where stormcast were once princes and knights on horses which leads me to believe that the current aesthetic of humans is similar to the models now (knights etc on horses). The flashbacks are also not back to the old world, they are to their lives before being stormcast on the new world in the new kingdoms during the age where chaos overtook everything.

Comrade Penguin
27-10-2015, 21:29
The models have rules now, but I doubt they will be getting any more updates in the future. Do you think GW will include rules for Empire and Bretonnia if they ever launch a 2nd edition of AOS? The rules they create will cover whatever new human faction they have.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 21:34
Perhaps - thats just it - no one knows. Do I think GW will include rules for a land called Bretonnia and the Empire? No not at all I expect there to be a human faction and it just be humans. I kind of lean towards that the aesthetics will remain middle ages in look though but thats not without anything to back it up, thats just my hunch.

Pedantically speaking - bretonnia and the empire are dead, but the human models are still usable in whatever GW calls the human faction. They've been shown in a few places in the novels now.

But posters posting that the models are all dead and squatted because they just happen to *know* that a redesign is forthcoming to kill off the models (which nothing stops you from using the older models) such as from a few other posters is as full of the unknown as anyone. NOBODY knows but currently NO armies have been removed and you can go in and rock any of the existing armies you were able to rock in January.

And a few months ago those same posters just KNEW that lizardmen were gone because in the end times the slaan jetted off into space, even though there were also plenty of counter arguments to how that could still work in the new world - that didn't stop the flame wars between the two sides or people treating the lizardmen as squatted and dead and gone as a fact from happening.

Could you have been led to believe that indeed lizardmen were gone forever because the slaan jettisoned into space? Sure!
Could you have been led to believe that because the slaan jettisoned into space that they could come back and have a place in the new thing of things? Absolutely!

Are either feasible conclusions to draw? Sure!

Could anyone have passed either off as full truth? No! Did people try! Everyday! To the point that a few people I knew cashed in their lizardmen collection in the middle of our end times campaigns and quit cold turkey because the rumor sites they were reading were treating this like a fact! And now we have the new army book pre ordering this weekend, and indeed those that just sat back and waited found out that their lizardmen collection was still fine and dandy.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 21:34
The models have rules now, but I doubt they will be getting any more updates in the future. Do you think GW will include rules for Empire and Bretonnia if they ever launch a 2nd edition of AOS? The rules they create will cover whatever new human faction they have.

To HelloKitty the unknown human faction in AoS equals Empire and Bretonnia as they are all human. So of course they'll get an update - there's always humans in these type of settings and humans often get updates. Empire and Bretonnia live forever!

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 21:44
Yes, if i can keep using the models I really don't care that they change the fictional name of their fictional home. The plastic dude with the spear doesn't stop being a plastic dude with a spear in the new scheme of things. Just like the plastic elf with the spear doesn't stop being the plastic elf with the spear. So long as there are rules for said models, said models can be used. Thats really what is important to me.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 21:58
Yes, if i can keep using the models I really don't care that they change the fictional name of their fictional home. The plastic dude with the spear doesn't stop being a plastic dude with a spear in the new scheme of things. Just like the plastic elf with the spear doesn't stop being the plastic elf with the spear. So long as there are rules for said models, said models can be used. Thats really what is important to me.

You keep telling us you're all about the narrative.

Now you don't really care.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 22:03
I can be all about the narrative and still field older models without caring yes. The narrative isn't effected if i'm using a bretonnian model knight or a new knight model, my opponent understands what it is regardless. Much like many of my opponents over the years fielded historical models for their empire and bretonnian armies. I'm sure you've seen that as well, and I don't see how that destroys the narrative.

Unless you want to just be pedantic and try to pick a fight. Or if your goal is to get people that own empire and bretonnians angry so that they will hate age of sigmar because you have convinced them they can no longer use their lovingly painted armies, and quit and go play kings of war. Then I can see it.

KariP
27-10-2015, 22:50
Hard sell tactics and big promises on sales to stores meant some stores believed their reps saying it was as big as 40k, or that the store in the next town had ordered 80 starter sets (hilarious when they tried that in Iceland, where there is one store in the whole country).

Icelandic Bretonnaia player here, AoS totally killed fantasy community which was alive couple of months ago and nobody touches AoS here. I think they maybe sold 1-2 boxes. Since then, nothing.

All I wanted was new Bretonnia book. :cries:

Gonefishing
27-10-2015, 23:09
I can be all about the narrative and still field older models without caring yes. The narrative isn't effected if i'm using a bretonnian model knight or a new knight model, my opponent understands what it is regardless. Much like many of my opponents over the years fielded historical models for their empire and bretonnian armies. I'm sure you've seen that as well, and I don't see how that destroys the narrative.

Unless you want to just be pedantic and try to pick a fight. Or if your goal is to get people that own empire and bretonnians angry so that they will hate age of sigmar because you have convinced them they can no longer use their lovingly painted armies, and quit and go play kings of war. Then I can see it.

Kitty - you too could be accused of being somewhat pedantic here....because you are somewhat failing to acknowledge an "inconvenient" point.

I think the point being made (whether you acknowledge it or not) is that players of the Empire / Brettonia (who may well have chosen to be players of these factions because they love the background / have invested in the narrative) can be relatively certain that at somepoint in the not too distant future their faction will no longer exist (that cant be 100% certain obviously - but it does seem to be extremely likely). When the new "Human" faction is released, the old Human factions will cease to exist and their models will no longer be produced, and their rules will be removed from the GW website.

Now, form a "miniatures" standpoint you may well be 100% right, that their will be a human faction with "Knights in Shining Sigmarite" for example, (which if you wanted to use one of your older Grailknight models to portray on the field of battle instead of buying the new model you can) and I don't think anyone disagrees with you on this....but they aren't talking about generic models they are talking about the actual factions - Empire / Brettonia will however no longer exist. The old armies only currently exist because GW have not yet released the new factions, and even when they do - not every model will necessarily have a recognisable "proxy", its a fairly sure bet that their will be a generic knight in the new human faction, a generic steam tank is an entirely different prospect.

Take Squats for example, I have a friend who (used to) play 40K imperial guard - his entire army consisted of beautifully painted and converted Squats - he was still playing a game with his Squats minatures (and indeed, outside of GW stores he could have used any models he wanted / from any company to represent his imperial guard - but he was no longer playing squats, because the rules for a squat army list no longer exist - he was playing Imperial Guard with proxy squats), and his squat models were still usable - however his old faction was not. Proxying models is nothing new, people have been doing it for years (I've even seen admech Nids) - but the "Factions" will no longer exist.

Every existing army will essentially be squatted when the AOS version is released (insofar as their faction and rules will no longer exist). So while players will be able to use old models to proxy equivalent units in the new ranges we don't know whether the entire line will be reproduced (meaning some models will have no proxie equivalent), we don't know yet how different GW will make the new factions (the rumoured steam punk dwarves may well be utterly different in tone and look to the current beer drinking bearded dwarves), and we don't know yet if any of the "flavour" of the original factions will be carried across to the new versions, so their are an awful lot of unknowns (but knowing GW as we all do, I think we can be certain they will do their utmost to make sure that that the new releases are different enough to get people to buy the new models).

What Kings of War has done brilliantly (unlike GW), is stated that you can use all your GW Mini's to play their game and that they will release factions to cover all the existing GW Codex's (and these factions will be similar in tone to their counterparts) - so is it really a surprise that (as mantic have informed them what's actually going to happen) that people are switching to Kings of War? It's not because people are scaremongering on Warseer, it because Mantic are being open and informative and GW are clouding everything with their +10 cloak of invisibility. From a GW point of view all we know (as they have said so) is that as soon as the new factions are released the old ones will be removed and no longer supported.

daveNYC
27-10-2015, 23:11
I can be all about the narrative and still field older models without caring yes. The narrative isn't effected if i'm using a bretonnian model knight or a new knight model, my opponent understands what it is regardless. Much like many of my opponents over the years fielded historical models for their empire and bretonnian armies. I'm sure you've seen that as well, and I don't see how that destroys the narrative.

Unless you want to just be pedantic and try to pick a fight. Or if your goal is to get people that own empire and bretonnians angry so that they will hate age of sigmar because you have convinced them they can no longer use their lovingly painted armies, and quit and go play kings of war. Then I can see it.

So... it seems that you don't have a problem with having to construct a new narrative from scratch for your existing armies? Because a lot of the people in this thread who are unhappy with the way things have turned out had armies that existed in a world that had history and a story flowing through it. Their armies existed within that world and had their own history and story that worked within the world's story, and that has been destroyed. They still have their models, and their models still have rules (for the moment), but their armies have been destroyed.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 23:15
Im not disputing that their narrative was removed. Anywhere. Im disputing their trying to push a false concept of models no longer being usable. As in "hey brah the lizardmen have just been squatted, but don't worry you can go play kings of war, they have rules for your lizardmen models" - examples from the past two weeks abound online of this statement or variations therein.

What is that message trying to convey? Lizardmen models have been removed the website - therefore squatted - therefore you have no supported army - therefore go play kings of war because they have rules there for your lizardmen (even though there are rules in Age of Sigmar to play your models too, and as we discovered they weren't really removed, just repackaged)

Armies have not been destroyed. Those armies can still be used.

Their narrative was changed yes. That doesnt stop the armies being used though

When people say an army is squatted, they are typically conveying the message that the models are not available any longer (many examples over the past couple of weeks with the lizardmen being removed from the site) or that they are no longer supported and have no rules.

I whole heartedly agree - the empire and bretonnia are no longer supported. That narrative has run its course and is now finished. Absolutely 100% in agreement. What will happen to those models? They will be branded the empire of man or whatever GW wants to call them. Repurposed. THey will exist in the new world as a faction just like they exist in mantic's kings of war as a minor faction. The same argument being made, that kings of war brilliantly provides support via making a minor faction that mantic has also said HAS NO MODEL SUPPORT), is being met by Age of Sigmar at that point too (that they are a viable faction)

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cracou2
27-10-2015, 23:26
eu.... no.

I played dwarf because i like the narrative. The narrative is not there any more thus I switch to king of war (as my whole local chapter). We're fed up with GW and we will pretend that the warhammer world is still here.... while using KoW rules (and probably minis).

Gonefishing
28-10-2015, 00:21
Im not disputing that their narrative was removed. Anywhere. Im disputing their trying to push a false concept of models no longer being usable. As in "hey brah the lizardmen have just been squatted, but don't worry you can go play kings of war, they have rules for your lizardmen models" - examples from the past two weeks abound online of this statement or variations therein.

What is that message trying to convey? Lizardmen models have been removed the website - therefore squatted - therefore you have no supported army - therefore go play kings of war because they have rules there for your lizardmen (even though there are rules in Age of Sigmar to play your models too, and as we discovered they weren't really removed, just repackaged)

Yes, but we know that Mantic have rules for a Lizardman army, and we know that army is currently supported by Mantic. From a GW perspective we know that Lizardmen have some free rules currently available and have been repackaged - but we don't know if they will get an update / new AOS faction or not - and if they don't get an update will they be squatted? If they do get an update, how much of the model range will survive? All we know for definite from the GW side is that when they release a new faction, the old rules will be removed from the website and the existing model range will be discontinued (so it may well be that some of their old models WILL no longer be usable). So I don't think (given what the companies are telling us at the moment) that telling Lizardmen players to go and play Kings of war is tremendously bad advice, because Mantic have at least told them what's going to happen and they can enter into that transaction with some form of confidence.



Armies have not been destroyed. Those armies can still be used.


Armies have not been destroyed YET, and they can still be used at the moment - but once again GW have told us when they release a new faction, the old rules will be removed from the website and the existing model range will be discontinued. As yet we have no idea what that will look like, or if the full range of the existing models will still be useful as proxy models for whatever the redesigned factions have - and that is an issue - and certainly gives people a cause for concern when buying the current miniature line if they are only intending to play AOS. I am not disagreeing that people will be able to proxy their old faction miniatures into the "new" factions (TM) when they are released, just as they could proxy models during any previous edition of WHFB - but there is a real concern (especially considering this years promised "Product review") that not all of those miniatures will see an equivalent AOS release that they can just "port" into. I don't see how you can say with confidence that 100% of everyone's existing armies will still be useable when their new faction is released - I certainly cant say the opposite - but its that uncertainty that is one of the major issues when considering whether to invest in AOS or just to go and play Kings of war. Mantic at least have told their customers what they are going to do.



Their narrative was changed yes. That doesnt stop the armies being used though


It does not stop you using the models in that army, but to many people (and as a narrative player this is something I would have thought you would understand) the "Army" is not just the models.



When people say an army is squatted, they are typically conveying the message that the models are not available any longer (many examples over the past couple of weeks with the lizardmen being removed from the site) or that they are no longer supported and have no rules.


Exactly - GW have told us as soon as the factions are released, the equivalent product range and the old rules will no longer be available - hence "Squatted". Yes, you may be able to use your old models in the new version - but you wont be able to buy anymore of those models, and you wont be able to get the specific rules for that old faction, and it will no longer be supported. You will no longer be able to buy brettonian models or play brettonian rules. - ie. Squatted. You will be able to buy new models for the new faction, and play the new rules - and you will probably be able to proxy your old models into the new faction - but that doesn't change the fact that your old faction will have been squatted.

HelloKitty
28-10-2015, 00:28
I think i'd have no problem with saying that "bretonnia as we know it is dead" because that is a true statement. Thats not what is rampant though. Just like today - there's **still** fears over lizardmen even though they are getting a brand new book next week that someday they may be squatted so ... its safer to go to mantic-land where they have rules, aren't really going to be supported other than rules, but at least they have rules... because one day in the future GW *may* not do lizardmen anymore. :shifty:

I mean - to me at that point its obvious its more of a "i hate gw" then anything else, which is fine. But trying to spread that these models are not usable anymore or one day *maybe* won't be usable anymore so you're better off hating gw like i do, is something else entirely.

babylonia
28-10-2015, 00:52
It's obvious that you consistently are negative towards Mantic. Why do they bug you so much? GW dumped WFB but you continually take pot shots at Mantic. As far as I can see Mantic have been open and accomodating to WFB players. GW on the other hand treated WFB players like crap. Mantic should be applauded for their recent actions not criticised.

Gonefishing
28-10-2015, 01:05
I think i'd have no problem with saying that "bretonnia as we know it is dead" because that is a true statement. Thats not what is rampant though. Just like today - there's **still** fears over lizardmen even though they are getting a brand new book next week that someday they may be squatted so ... its safer to go to mantic-land where they have rules, aren't really going to be supported other than rules, but at least they have rules... because one day in the future GW *may* not do lizardmen anymore.

I mean - to me at that point its obvious its more of a "i hate gw" then anything else, which is fine. But trying to spread that these models are not usable anymore or one day *maybe* won't be usable anymore so you're better off hating gw like i do, is something else entirely.

GW could very simply fix that problem however, by simply stating "All existing factions will get an AOS release" - they haven't, because they choose to operate under a cloak of invisibility and that (in this case) is costing them customers. Mantic are completely open about what they are going to do (in this case providing rules support for Lizardmen), and that is gaining them customers. The simple fact is that GW models are very expensive, and any uncertainty about the viability of a faction will make people think twice before purchasing them - so KOW is a safer harbour, that allows them to make that investment.

It's also not GW hate to tell people that their models may not be useable - the simple fact is that they may indeed not be useable. We know that once the new factions are released for AOS the old ranges will be discontinued (that's a fact verified by GW), Lizardmen are currently being repackaged under the old faction listings (every factions full codex and model range has been ported into AOS so that people can play [and buy] GW products - but this is only until the new equivalent factions are released). However what we don't know is what format and what amount of the range will be retained when they are properly "Sigmar'ed" (and GW wont tell us), and it may be that parts of the model range will not have a proxy equivalent in the new range. All we know for definite at the moment, is that a lot of the current factions will at some point in the near future will (by definition) be squatted, and Lizardmen are no more immune to this than anyone else. Saying that is not GW hate, its a genuine concern.

HelloKitty
28-10-2015, 01:09
It's obvious that you consistently are negative towards Mantic. Why do they bug you so much? GW dumped WFB but you continually take pot shots at Mantic. As far as I can see Mantic have been open and accomodating to WFB players. GW on the other hand treated WFB players like crap. Mantic should be applauded for their recent actions not criticised.

What pot shots have i taken?




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Katastrophe
28-10-2015, 01:31
We will likely have a good idea what these new faction books may be like with the Seraphon book. If this is an actual Army Book with distinct information and new units (to be released), we will know where GW is headed (combination of new and old models). If, on the other hand, it's more like the book of scenarios with which you can play your old models and nothing new as far as model releases, we'll know that GW is really just churning old stock and making a blatant money grab.

Shifte
28-10-2015, 01:40
I hate Age of Sigmar and what it represents. I'm glad it is failing as I want GW to be punished for its arrogance. The background is crap, the models are overpriced and the game itself (which I DID try) was awful. If someone else thinks the background is good, the models are affordable and the game is great then fair play, to each their own.

I can't be more honest than that.

Yrch
28-10-2015, 01:53
Edit: wrong thread

Khaines Wrath
28-10-2015, 02:35
There is no way the old models are going to remain once the new models start getting rolled out. So much of the old aesthetics were drawn from the old setting which no longer exists. Not to mention the changes that occurred in the End Times.

These initial AoS rules for existing factions feel like some weird limbo rather than an actual game release.

AngryAngel
28-10-2015, 02:42
Lies! Don't believe any of this. Allied troops are killing themselves at the gates of Baghdad, we have always been at war with Eastasia, and Age of Sigmar is a runaway hit!

So when do we get our 10 minutes of AOS hate, I'm waiting for that, I'm all fired up to get good and mad !!

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 02:53
I mean - to me at that point its obvious its more of a "i hate gw" then anything else, which is fine. But trying to spread that these models are not usable anymore or one day *maybe* won't be usable anymore so you're better off hating gw like i do, is something else entirely.

This is direct from GW:


"They're there as kind of a celebration and final send off of the old warhammer armies, and he said you might notice the new armies don't have the stupid noises or imaginary friends. This is deliberate, its designed that you'll only generally play the old stuff with your mates since it's a bit embarassing to play in a public place.

The new races will look different to the old ones. Ooruks will not look the same as the orcs we currently have. As such, when they get round to releasing Ooruks, the old models will cease production. He did say that you can still use your old models as ooruks, but you won't be able to buy normal orc boys again."

There's no "maybe's" about it. GW has flat out said they're getting rid of them all. And I find it disappointing that you're trying to claim that they'll be sticking around in perpetuity. And you've stated the reason why you argue that, that you go around defending AOS in order to get people to play it so you can keep playing it. So if we're talking agendas, that's the one which you've stated in the past as being your reason for posting on threads like these. Except that it's a harmful position in this case, because you know very well, from GW's own words, that the likes of the Empire and Bretonnia will cease production eventually. And you know from common sense and past history that those armies will eventually no longer have any rules and will be totally unsupported. And yet you're trying to argue that that's not the case, hoping that some poor sap will believe you and waste several hundred dollars on an Empire or Bretonnian army and improve AOS's bottom line, only to find themselves unable to complete their collection when GW rolls out the new human army and the army they were collecting suddenly disappears off the webstore, or for their army to no longer become supported down the road as their faction no longer exists in the setting, as GW clearly has no intention of supporting non-existent armies in perpetuity. And all so AOS can make more money and you can keep playing it. You're not just arguing something which is plainly false, but you're arguing from a position which'll end up hurting, not helping, fellow gamers by trying to mislead them into thinking that the Empire, Bretonnia and others will always be supported, all while knowing that those players will have their legs cut out from under them in the not too distant future.

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 04:12
Anyway, getting back on topic:

Retailers pay 55% of the full price for GW product, assuming they're not buying excessive quantities of GW's product for only a slightly higher discount. So looking at what's out there...

- End Zone Hobby Center - Utah: They're selling AOS for $62.95, so they're losing $5.80 off of those sales.
- Game Goblins - Arkansas: They're selling AOS for $69.44, but with free shipping. Assuming their shipping costs are around $6, they're losing $5.31 from their sales of AOS.
- Level Up Games MN - Minnesota: They're selling AOS for $69.99, but with free shipping. Again, assuming $6 shipping costs, they're losing $4.76 for every AOS sale.
- John Porter Livesay - California (I presume this is the account of a store owner): He's selling AOS for $68.50, plus shipping, so he's only losing 25 cents off of AOS sales.
- Gorilla Warfare - New York: They're selling AOS for $74.16, plus shipping, so their sales would actually result in profit. Albeit only a $5.41 profit on a $125 box.
- Cooper's Cave - New York: They're selling AOS for $75.00, plus shipping, so they'll have a whopping $6.25 profit off any sales.

They steadily increase from there, but it's interesting to note that the cheaper ones have yet to sell out. Game Goblins, for instance, still has 8 sets left. So even selling those boxes at a loss, they still haven't been able to sell out of their stock (Although if they do sell out, that'll result in a net loss of $42.48 for that retailer for those boxes alone, nevermind the costs of shipping materials to send them all out). And these aren't stores from a specific regional pocket, but from all over the country. New York, California, Minnesota, and Utah.

Greyshadow
28-10-2015, 04:33
Yes, what a cock-up. Regardless of people's opinions on the new game it does represent a disaster. A product of hiring for attitude and not talent I'll wager. Sad to see the state of what was a wonderful old game.

Asmodios
28-10-2015, 07:40
Anyway, getting back on topic:

Retailers pay 55% of the full price for GW product, assuming they're not buying excessive quantities of GW's product for only a slightly higher discount. So looking at what's out there...

- End Zone Hobby Center - Utah: They're selling AOS for $62.95, so they're losing $5.80 off of those sales.
- Game Goblins - Arkansas: They're selling AOS for $69.44, but with free shipping. Assuming their shipping costs are around $6, they're losing $5.31 from their sales of AOS.
- Level Up Games MN - Minnesota: They're selling AOS for $69.99, but with free shipping. Again, assuming $6 shipping costs, they're losing $4.76 for every AOS sale.
- John Porter Livesay - California (I presume this is the account of a store owner): He's selling AOS for $68.50, plus shipping, so he's only losing 25 cents off of AOS sales.
- Gorilla Warfare - New York: They're selling AOS for $74.16, plus shipping, so their sales would actually result in profit. Albeit only a $5.41 profit on a $125 box.
- Cooper's Cave - New York: They're selling AOS for $75.00, plus shipping, so they'll have a whopping $6.25 profit off any sales.

They steadily increase from there, but it's interesting to note that the cheaper ones have yet to sell out. Game Goblins, for instance, still has 8 sets left. So even selling those boxes at a loss, they still haven't been able to sell out of their stock (Although if they do sell out, that'll result in a net loss of $42.48 for that retailer for those boxes alone, nevermind the costs of shipping materials to send them all out). And these aren't stores from a specific regional pocket, but from all over the country. New York, California, Minnesota, and Utah.
Here in Texas our local gaming store Texas Toy Soldier was selling the starter box for $50. I'm not even sure what they are selling it for now considering they just stacked all the boxes on the floor in a corner. The best AOS moment i have seen is when some kids mom called the store about a month after release asking if she could reserve a box (so it wouldn't sell out) and listening to the store manager almost choke to death trying not to laugh. Anyone who has taken an entry level economics course or worked a day in retail can tell you AOS is a huge flop. The biggest mistake GW made was exposing people to other model lines. I had honestly never taken time to look at another company's models before (neither had all my buddy's that grew up on warhammer) but now we are all going to pick up KOW armies around Christmas. Our local store just started stocking mantic KOW models and has already sold out of several of the starters boxes. Even though i don't play 40k i listened to a group discuss how they all planned on getting armys for War Machine next just in case 40k goes down the AOS path. GW made a huge mistake fragmenting the community the way they did instead of just sticking an AOS style game on the front of 9th and keeping their share of the market.

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 08:00
Mantic really should send Kirby a gift basket or something, because nobody's done quite so much to promote Kings of War as GW. And yeah, my concern that GW will do the same to 40k is the reason I dropped $235 on the Warpath Kickstarter. I want to be prepared for the AOSification of 40k with an Enforcer and Forge Fathers army.

Kyriakin
28-10-2015, 09:51
Mantic really should send Kirby a gift basket or something, because nobody's done quite so much to promote Kings of War as GW. And yeah, my concern that GW will do the same to 40k is the reason I dropped $235 on the Warpath Kickstarter. I want to be prepared for the AOSification of 40k with an Enforcer and Forge Fathers army.
To be honest, I see Kirby as more the symptom than the disease.

The root of the problem is the fact that GW is a publicly traded behemoth, with ever-demanding shareholders. Such companies require a Kirby, as anyone offering a long-term solution would be booted out during the initial "taking the medicine" period.

Does anyone know if shareholders are gamers themselves? Would they understand any long-term plans that are specific to this industry, or do they just see the numbers four time a year?

Niall78
28-10-2015, 10:16
To be honest, I see Kirby as more the symptom than the disease.

The root of the problem is the fact that GW is a publicly traded behemoth, with ever-demanding shareholders. Such companies require a Kirby, as anyone offering a long-term solution would be booted out during the initial "taking the medicine" period.

Does anyone know if shareholders are gamers themselves? Would they understand any long-term plans that are specific to this industry, or do they just see the numbers four time a year?

I'm sure most won't be gamers, won't have a clue about the industry and could be less interested. It's all about earning per share. Earnings are high enough - they'll be happy. Earnings per share drop - they'll reinvest elsewhere.

Investing is an emotionless business unless you want to lose all your money.

GW PLC is trapped in my opinion. They need to keep the shares paying out to avoid a share price collapse. To keep the share price high year on year they have to do things that damage their longer term position within the industry. It's a vicious circle that will eventually lead to a crunch point where the profit per share cannot be maintained and market share has collapsed with the brand highly toxic.

Kyriakin
28-10-2015, 10:24
I'm sure most won't be gamers, won't have a clue about the industry and could be less interested. It's all about earning per share. Earnings are high enough - they'll be happy. Earnings per share drop - they'll reinvest elsewhere.

Investing is an emotionless business unless you want to lose all your money.

GW PLC is trapped in my opinion. They need to keep the shares paying out to avoid a share price collapse. To keep the share price high year on year they have to do things that damage their longer term position within the industry. It's a vicious circle that will eventually lead to a crunch point where the profit per share cannot be maintained and market share has collapsed with the brand highly toxic.
Pretty much.

Every so often they will throw something like the Stormcast Eternals at the wall, and hope its catches fire. If not, they will just keep massaging the numbers until it all blows up down the road. Then it will be rats from a sinking ship time, and the people hit the hardest will be the lowly guys.

They need a spacemarine or LOTR "hit" soon, or I fear the decline is terminal.

Niall78
28-10-2015, 10:37
Pretty much.

Every so often they will throw something like the Stormcast Eternals at the wall, and hope its catches fire. If not, they will just keep massaging the numbers until it all blows up down the road. Then it will be rats from a sinking ship time, and the people hit the hardest will be the lowly guys.

They need a spacemarine or LOTR "hit" soon, or I fear the decline is terminal.

Instead of getting a "hit" they are entering into very rocky waters. AoS is a market failure - they've blown up one of the oldest and most successful tabletop games of all time, split their fan base asunder, ceded the market to competitors and generated massive bad will from formerly die-hard customers for effectively nothing. A game getting dumped after only four months by independents at loss making prices on their web-stores.

Their successful product range - once vast - now comprises of 40K - a game that even fans say is a complete mess. This science fiction game now has to compete for the next four or five years with the Star Wars hype train - good luck with that.

Deus_Vult
28-10-2015, 10:51
Again, are all of you forgetting that WHFB has been circling the drain for years? Maybe AoS has failed but continuing with a 9th edition that did minor incremental changes was not an option at all. If WHFB was oh so loved how come it sold so dismally?

Deadhorse
28-10-2015, 10:53
Because GW ruined it with 8th edition, which included so-so rules, lack of balance and gigantic barriers to entry (high model count, high model price, huge amount of rules). Which is basically most of the problems the declining 40k now has.

GW incompetence did not start with Age of Sigmar.

Holier Than Thou
28-10-2015, 10:53
Again, are all of you forgetting that WHFB has been circling the drain for years? Maybe AoS has failed but continuing with a 9th edition that did minor incremental changes was not an option at all. If WHFB was oh so loved how come it sold so dismally?

It didn't though, apparently it WAS profitable. It just wasn't profitable enough for Greed Workshop, I mean Games Workshop.

Niall78
28-10-2015, 10:59
It didn't though, apparently it WAS profitable. It just wasn't profitable enough for Greed Workshop, I mean Games Workshop.

If WFB was killed because it wasn't profitable enough for GW AoS is going to have the lifespan of a mayfly.

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 10:59
Again, are all of you forgetting that WHFB has been circling the drain for years? Maybe AoS has failed but continuing with a 9th edition that did minor incremental changes was not an option at all. If WHFB was oh so loved how come it sold so dismally?

So you're saying that nothing, absolutely nothing could have made Warhammer Fantasy more popular? That absolutely nothing could have been done to generate sales and excitement for it? Because last I checked, you had End Times books which sold out within minutes of being placed for sale. Is that what you consider a dismal seller? That says the opposite, that if GW had put the effort into making something which could generate interest from the fans again, that they could have made Warhammer Fantasy a successful seller again. They just chose not to and decided to do AOS instead. And from all appearances, rather than having a game which was turning a profit, albeit not as much as they wanted, they now have a game which is more than likely actively losing them money along with player goodwill.

williamsond
28-10-2015, 11:04
Simpley the reason fantasy stopped selling was they priced them selves out of the market. When you could get a starter army in lead for less tham 50 quid with diffenent discount deals from whitedwarf every month (it was 10 pounds for a starter plastic undead army) every one played fantasy battle. People don't seem to remember it was the main game for a long time with 40k playing second string, but as everything moved up in price and the number of minis in a army drastically skyrocketed it became harder to get people through the door. I remember, I've lived through the rise and declime of most of GW's games. Regardless of the introduction of new rules in the guise of AoS (and how people like or dislike them) if GW had kept fantasy as was but reduced the army size and scale of the game low at about 40-60 guys and while drastically lowering prices of entry people would have started playing again.

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 11:14
Price was a definite factor. Charging $24.75 for 10 State Troops is bad enough, but then they'd charge $41.25 for 10 Greatswords, and that kit has less plastic than the State Troops. Starting a new army became prohibitively expensive. That's something which GW certainly hasn't corrected with AOS, as they're charging $50 for five basic infantry for the Sigmarines.

smaxx
28-10-2015, 11:15
if GW had kept fantasy as was but reduced the army size and scale of the game low at about 40-60 guys and while drastically lowering prices of entry people would have started playing again.

I agree. Add to that some rules changes as they are doing in 9th age and it could've improved sales a lot. Lower model count by needing just 4 guys for ranks and some adjustment to magic, some adjustments to war machines, monsters and here and there, and the popularity would've grown. Improving rules to have more control for the player would've helped a lot. I would've taken Kings of War approach, and made the actual model count irrelevant, and just define normal troop to be the area of 10 models, a regiment 20 models area etc. That makes entry a bit easier. Well, I really like the KoW, and probably focus on that for my fantasy fix... Or 9th Age, when it's more stable.

Niall78
28-10-2015, 11:20
Simpley the reason fantasy stopped selling was they priced them selves out of the market. When you could get a starter army in lead for less tham 50 quid with diffenent discount deals from whitedwarf every month (it was 10 pounds for a starter plastic undead army) every one played fantasy battle. People don't seem to remember it was the main game for a long time with 40k playing second string, but as everything moved up in price and the number of minis in a army drastically skyrocketed it became harder to get people through the door. I remember, I've lived through the rise and declime of most of GW's games. Regardless of the introduction of new rules in the guise of AoS (and how people like or dislike them) if GW had kept fantasy as was but reduced the army size and scale of the game low at about 40-60 guys and while drastically lowering prices of entry people would have started playing again.

€100-€150 will get you a good buy-in to most games these days. You'll have enough to have a decent force with a bit of variety at points people play at. GWs games have buy-ins multiple times this price point.

Think of a parent weighing up X-wing or 40K for a kid. One requires €100 or so investment, is ready to play out of the box, is expandable with pocket money, has clear easy but deep rules supported by a customer website with a FAQ section and is tied to the hottest IP on the block this year. One requires possibly €500-600 maybe more initial investment, add-ons can be very expensive, requires hours of building and painting - adding substantial extra costs, has a mess of rule books and no FAQ or errata support from the developer and as an IP is losing its niche market share year on year.

It's a bit of a no-brainer really.

williamsond
28-10-2015, 11:37
yup the only reason I got my first army (after entry to the hoby with hero quest) was because at 10 pounds for a small undead army my folks were prepeared to risk me as a 11 year old child losing interest after a couple of months, if the buy in had been in the triple figures I doubt I would be a gamer now. To put it into context my own daughter wanted to paint something with me, so we went to a local GW stockest and the only thing I could find on the shelf for under 25 quid for her to experiment with was 3 (or 4) plastic orks for about 6 quid, back in my day she could have spent all day just looking at blister pack until she found something she liked.

Drakkar du Chaos
28-10-2015, 11:55
Price was a definite factor. Charging $24.75 for 10 State Troops is bad enough, but then they'd charge $41.25 for 10 Greatswords, and that kit has less plastic than the State Troops. Starting a new army became prohibitively expensive. That's something which GW certainly hasn't corrected with AOS, as they're charging $50 for five basic infantry for the Sigmarines.

Between 2 or 3$ for single 28mm miniature is acceptable, above its madness.

Niall78
28-10-2015, 12:04
yup the only reason I got my first army (after entry to the hoby with hero quest) was because at 10 pounds for a small undead army my folks were prepeared to risk me as a 11 year old child losing interest after a couple of months, if the buy in had been in the triple figures I doubt I would be a gamer now. To put it into context my own daughter wanted to paint something with me, so we went to a local GW stockest and the only thing I could find on the shelf for under 25 quid for her to experiment with was 3 (or 4) plastic orks for about 6 quid, back in my day she could have spent all day just looking at blister pack until she found something she liked.

I bought RT:40K for 8, then thirty marines for $10, then later 36 IG for 10, then later still 3 Rhino APCs for 10 then added a small army of metal miniatures bought one packet a week with pocket money. My brother did the same with Orks and Chaos. Prices nowadays make such purchasing by younger players impossible - especially with a lot more competition about for money. A phone for instance will eat a lot of a youngsters spare cash - them saving for 30-40 for a pack of five miniatures is a pipe-dream.

Sirius2.0
28-10-2015, 12:14
Got to echo the recent points here, it's not a youngsters hobby anymore. 15 years ago I could take my pocket money, and my paper round and buy a regiment a week.
A birthday money could net me a small army and as time went by my collections grew as I could look forwards to a steady stream of new stuff.
Now when most boxes cost more than the vital Outgoings (food heating mortgage) even the 'pocket money' I allow myself doesn't even come close to what is need to kee up with gw

Katastrophe
28-10-2015, 12:28
Again, are all of you forgetting that WHFB has been circling the drain for years? Maybe AoS has failed but continuing with a 9th edition that did minor incremental changes was not an option at all. If WHFB was oh so loved how come it sold so dismally?

False false false. What you're saying is not true.

WFB was declining in revenue but it was profitable. The issue with GW is that profitable is not sufficient for them. They compare everything with 40K profit margins and revenue totals and anything less they are dissatisfied with. That's were the business guys need to take the reigns from the wannabes.

WFB was profitable, just not as much as 40K. Let's stop saying things that has been established by people in the know that aren't true at all.

Why WFB and GW generally have falling revenues needs its own thread so I won't get into those things here.

HelloKitty
28-10-2015, 13:23
Between 2 or 3€$ for single 28mm miniature is acceptable, above its madness.

Thats pretty reasonable.

More reasonable then a lot of the requests I read lol, where the average seems to be $1 a figure is pushing the upper limits.

Katastrophe
28-10-2015, 13:36
Thats pretty reasonable.

More reasonable then a lot of the requests I read lol, where the average seems to be $1 a figure is pushing the upper limits.

$1 for monopose plastics would be reasonable. There's no need for shaven slaves, goblin spear, regular spear or sword and board guys being multi-part plastics. Particularly the ones that require 30-40 per unit. They could do a standard monopose box $1-1.50 per model and a command rank box of fancier models at $3.50-4.00. Where they lose people is when folks look at a core unit and see that they cost $4 per and you need like 40-50 but that's a minimal points investment.

I don't recall there being a lot of requests for $1 Chaos Warriors and Phoenix Guard. It was mainly core troops that were the complaint.

HelloKitty
28-10-2015, 13:46
I can't quantify it but I have seen overall generalized statements that said if its plastic and its not a hero then it shouldn't be more than $1 in many forums and groups, $5 max for a hero, and cavalry shouldn't be more than $2 - $2.50. (which is why a lot of the empire and bretonnian guys I know use historical models which can be found for that price)

That of course takes us back to 1997 prices for Games Workshop as well.

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 14:06
$25 would be a fair price for the State Troops box if it came with twenty models rather than ten. The Greatswords, too, should also be twenty models in the box for the same price. I also like the way Mantic does it, offering a 40-man box for $40, so you get a slight discount if you buy those units in larger numbers. $35 is a good price point for cavalry, too, but they should be ten per box, not eight (if you're going to demand that minimum rank width be increased from four models to five then your unit boxes should damn well come with a number of models in increments of five).

Sirius2.0
28-10-2015, 14:38
At the end of the day we are all sensible and understand that games workshop, and all other companies need to make a profit. I would definitely have bought more if I thought what I was getting was fair for the price.
On a model by model basis, infantry in infinity is far more expensive than some Warhammer models. The difference is I only need 10-15 for that game as opposed to the hundreds needed for Warhammer.
Ada previous poster said the fact that you can get a functioning and varied army for many games for under 100 with affordable expansion, in pocket-money price region, is what's truly damaging games workshops business model. Selling more models for less is a far better business model than selling less models for more...
I hope one day they realise this.

Drakkar du Chaos
28-10-2015, 14:48
$25 would be a fair price for the State Troops box if it came with twenty models rather than ten. The Greatswords, too, should also be twenty models in the box for the same price. I also like the way Mantic does it, offering a 40-man box for $40, so you get a slight discount if you buy those units in larger numbers. $35 is a good price point for cavalry, too, but they should be ten per box, not eight (if you're going to demand that minimum rank width be increased from four models to five then your unit boxes should damn well come with a number of models in increments of five).

I am sorry but the State Troops are priced well at 25$ for ten. Because you got :

- Average/Good quality
- 3 nice weapon choices in the box (as a WoC player i need to buy that separately)

Only Mantic and manufacturers for historical games offers cheaper alternative but the miniatures are usually uglier and you will not find the good weapons options you want.


Asking GW for 1$ per miniature is not reasonable if they offer better quality and options than competitors. Again the 2-3$€ range is acceptable for GW to deliver what we expect of them, 20 chaos marauders for 30€ its 1.5€ per miniatures but the quality is so low i will pay gladly 2x that price for better quality (also not HW in the box), 10 dark elves warriors for 30€ the quality is really nice with a lot of options so good luck for finding better than that.

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 14:54
Only Mantic and manufacturers for historical games offers cheaper alternative but the miniatures are usually uglier and you will not find the good weapons options you want.

Have you seen the Perry Bros. miniatures? Great quality and much cheaper than GW prices. Moreover, we're talking about a core infantry choice here. All those bells and whistles aren't needed. If anything, they could easily split them into Spearmen/Halberdier/Swordsmen boxes and not have as many unnecessary sprues in each box.

Drakkar du Chaos
28-10-2015, 15:06
Have you seen the Perry Bros. miniatures? Great quality and much cheaper than GW prices.

Idk a lot about Perry because they dont sell what i need. But for that price its monopose right ?


Moreover, we're talking about a core infantry choice here. All those bells and whistles aren't needed.

Again as a WoC player my only infantry is Core units so i want something who dont look ugly as **** like naked marauders. And i do not play hordes regiments so i dont need units of 50.


If anything, they could easily split them into Spearmen/Halberdier/Swordsmen boxes and not have as many unnecessary sprues in each box.

For you maybe but not for GW production cost. And i am not sure if we will pay a lot less without "unnecessary sprues", also you can always use them later for conversion.

smaxx
28-10-2015, 15:07
On a model by model basis, infantry in infinity is far more expensive than some Warhammer models. The difference is I only need 10-15 for that game as opposed to the hundreds needed for Warhammer.
Ada previous poster said the fact that you can get a functioning and varied army for many games for under 100 with affordable expansion, in pocket-money price region, is what's truly damaging games workshops business model. Selling more models for less is a far better business model than selling less models for more...
I hope one day they realise this.
Infinity is a fine game, I haven't played it but I enjoy looking my friends play it at the Club. The guys have spent quite a lot of money on scenery though... Of course You can do it Yourself, and they have done that also, but in the end it's easy to spend money on Infinity scenery, as the game comes to life when there's a lot of it and when it looks good.

Good thing is, You can have several factions with smaller effort spent on assembling and painting, that's the upside for all lower model count games.

Because my theory is, that for a good amount of people the money spent in gaming is really limited on painting speed and nothing else... Unless the hobby is buying and not using minis of course... I hope people don't play with unpainted minis. But painting a WHFB army is a lot of effort and too much for a lot of people, that's the real challenge.

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 15:11
Idk a lot about Perry because they dont sell what i need. But for that price its monopose right ?

Nope. 36 models for about $30, and not at all monopose. Tell me these aren't good quality miniatures.

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=3217&osCsid=qic9nhbogl98p7q7g7ckjldfp4


Again as a WoC player my only infantry is Core units so i want something who dont look ugly as **** like naked marauders.

I have no idea what that has to do with anything.


For you maybe but not for GW production cost. And i am not sure if we will pay a lot less without "unnecessary sprues", also you can always use them later for conversion.

How does this affect GW production costs? If anything, it'd reduce the amount of sprues needing to be produced and be less wasteful.

As for how much we'd pay, you're the one who raised the issue that all those extra sprues would raise prices. I was pointing out that, if that were an issue, then it's one which could easily be solved. Either way, I don't believe for a second that GW prices these things according to sprues. Just look at the Greatswords. Same amount of models as State Troops, they have fewer sprues, but are somehow $16 more expensive. GW's grossly overcharging, period.

Katastrophe
28-10-2015, 15:27
I am sorry but the State Troops are priced well at 25$ for ten. Because you got :

- Average/Good quality
- 3 nice weapon choices in the box (as a WoC player i need to buy that separately)

Only Mantic and manufacturers for historical games offers cheaper alternative but the miniatures are usually uglier and you will not find the good weapons options you want.


Asking GW for 1$ per miniature is not reasonable if they offer better quality and options than competitors. Again the 2-3$ range is acceptable for GW to deliver what we expect of them, 20 chaos marauders for 30 its 1.5 per miniatures but the quality is so low i will pay gladly 2x that price for better quality (also not HW in the box), 10 dark elves warriors for 30 the quality is really nice with a lot of options so good luck for finding better than that.

This is exactly why GWs approach is nonsensical.

Let's presume I have access to a core infantry guy with 3 weapon configurations, spear/shield, OR halberd, OR sword/shield and one needs 30 for a unit. The player/buyer only needs buy 30 spears OR 30 Halberds or 30 sword guys. However, because the box of 10 can make either of the unit types, I'm forced to pay a premium ultimately for bits I don't need. GW can make cheaper spear monopse or halberd monopse or sword monopse but it's more efficient for them to not do so, and more profitable (per model and box) to give me things I don't need or want and charge me for it.

Ultimately, from a buyer standpoint I'm losing out because GW is charging me for the option of making multiple units, almost like I'm being given a 3 in 1. But once I commit to making 1 of the options, my other options are gone, yet I'm paying a premium for them.

This is why for core low point models monopse is a better way to sell those models.

Like I said, they can still sell the command rank set with all the upgrades and bell and whistles and for someone wanting to have 30 relatively unique models in a unit, you can still do that.

Because WFB was a mass combat game, essentially trying to sell people what were essentially 100 individuals was a horrible path to take to remain profitable and increase sales.

Korraz
28-10-2015, 15:39
I am sorry but the State Troops are priced well at 25$ for ten. Because you got :

- Average/Good quality
- 3 nice weapon choices in the box (as a WoC player i need to buy that separately)

Only Mantic and manufacturers for historical games offers cheaper alternative but the miniatures are usually uglier and you will not find the good weapons options you want.


Asking GW for 1$ per miniature is not reasonable if they offer better quality and options than competitors. Again the 2-3$ range is acceptable for GW to deliver what we expect of them, 20 chaos marauders for 30 its 1.5 per miniatures but the quality is so low i will pay gladly 2x that price for better quality (also not HW in the box), 10 dark elves warriors for 30 the quality is really nice with a lot of options so good luck for finding better than that.

As somebody that has built, converted and painted over 200 of the current State Troops, I feel the need to speak up here.

25$ is not, I repeat, not a fair price point for these models. The current batch of State Troops is one of the ugliest and poorly made kits in younger plastic miniature history. They are multi part plastic, yes, but cut in the absolute worst ways possible. The spears and halberds are flimsy, their arms and heads match poorly and they are an absolute nightmare to rank up properly. As for pure casting quality, they are an absolute joke. The details on the kit are extremely shallow, bags and scrolls fuse together with legs and shirts and look absolutely horrendous and don't get me started on their hands or faces. Half of them don't even have proper fingers. They look like bloody toads. Somehow they managed to have worse and more blurred details right after release than the 6th Edition State Troops after years of production. And they have next to none of the fabled GW Extra Bits that are supposed to justify the price.

The Empire State Troops are pretty much garbage and perfectly illustrate the insanity of GW pricing. The only thing they have going for them is that they fit in with GW comical scale for humans and even then they are worse than their 6th Ed. counterparts. It's kits like these that probably caused GW to stop updating core troops. After all, we updated State Troops and nobody bought them, so nobody could possibly want Elf Spearmen or new Marauders!

Sirius2.0
28-10-2015, 15:48
Infinity is a fine game, I haven't played it but I enjoy looking my friends play it at the Club. The guys have spent quite a lot of money on scenery though... Of course You can do it Yourself, and they have done that also, but in the end it's easy to spend money on Infinity scenery, as the game comes to life when there's a lot of it and when it looks good.

Good thing is, You can have several factions with smaller effort spent on assembling and painting, that's the upside for all lower model count games.

Because my theory is, that for a good amount of people the money spent in gaming is really limited on painting speed and nothing else... Unless the hobby is buying and not using minis of course... I hope people don't play with unpainted minis. But painting a WHFB army is a lot of effort and too much for a lot of people, that's the real challenge.

Accruing the scenery is a bit of a pain but you do have options. Self building with cardboard or foam board should only cost around 30 for the board, and printing out a game Matt came to around about a tenner when last I checked.

With a young baby at home though time is of a premium to me so I'm picking up he mdf scenery online. It's a lot but as you say, it looks good and really enhances the games, so I'm seeing it as an investment in what will be my main system. And heck, more scenery for necromunda/40k is never a bad thing!

Since aos, I have been viewing each new game/system from the perspective of "how much is the buy in"
It's quite sobering when comparing to gw, both in terms of time and in terms of cost. For infinity (which I shamefully haven't finished painting my forces) it was under 100 for a bare-bones board and two factions at 300 points, the tournament size of game.

Other game systems, frostgrave, X wing malifaux, hordes... All systems I'm trying or will try, and all are much cheaper than any comparable force for gw, and only require a short amount of hobby time (no less enjoyable though)

It just doesn't make sense anymore to spend hundreds of pounds, and dozens of hours to get an army from one company where you can spend less Time and money to get more forces and games to play with.

The fact of the matter is that if it wasn't for the bad will that age of sigmar created, I and many like myself wouldn't have this attitude, and would have continued binging on games workshop, fuelling our addictions on the the evil we knew :p

Drakkar du Chaos
28-10-2015, 16:06
@ Buddy Bear & Katastrophe

What i mean is : for a manufacturer it is better/cheaper to produce 300 box of X than 100 box of Y and 100 box of Z.
And about units for Core Choice i dont need huge units and i dont want crap quality because i do not play huge infantry armies and i do not want to collect ugly miniatures. So i know i don't need or cannot expect to get what i want with 1€$ per miniature. Where i 100% agree is about the possibility to buy at GW cheap average monopose miniature for the purpose of mass ranking, for example VC players with zombies spam have no choice but to buy Mantic (also, for once, they are better) and this is stupid.

@ Korraz

Yeah i dont have the miniatures, on photo it don't look that bad but its not reality so i believe you. Thanks for the input.

So, to go back to what i said about the price range of 2 or 3€ per miniature, the dark elves are a better example. I will not pay above that price unless this is EXACTLY what i want, like Scibor's Dwarves.
So about AoS and Stormcast the prices are totally insane.

Shardik the Bear
28-10-2015, 16:28
Have you seen the Perry Bros. miniatures? Great quality and much cheaper than GW prices. Moreover, we're talking about a core infantry choice here. All those bells and whistles aren't needed. If anything, they could easily split them into Spearmen/Halberdier/Swordsmen boxes and not have as many unnecessary sprues in each box.

I remember when Games Workshop produced plastic multi-part core infantry boxes in plastic for 12, this went up to 15 fairly soon after. The number of dudes in a box varied but it tended to be between 15 and 20 depending on the faction. Those boxes formed the core of my Orcs and Goblins and Dark Elves armies. I get that there's been inflation and all but by the end of 8th the core infantry for some armies cost more than four times what they did back in about the year 2000 for a product which I don't consider significantly better.

Asmodios
28-10-2015, 16:28
While making small separate kits for halberds, swords and other options isn't a bad idea i really don't think the extra cost GW charges is based on that little bit of extra plastic. GW entire cost is the original kit they create. Whether that kit contains a sword and bow variant when first produced is the real cost. I have been to GW manufacturing facility in Atlanta and they have machines just pumping put whatever unit they had plugged in that day. The cost of production isn't going to change much because they offer a few bits of extra plastic in each box and I'm sure the most expensive part of that is literally the shipping weight. What GW docent realize is that if they lowered cost they would sell a much greater volume of models. So say they cut the cost of boxes by 30% if this lead to 45% more being sold it would be a huge win. It would also help to take business away from other miniature companies. All of a sudden people wouldn't be looking at buying generic skeletons from another company because you could have the GW official model at a reasonable price. I know for sure that if GW models were cheaper there would be another 2-3 armies i would love to pick up. Perfect example are the squigs i got for my goblin herd. I only got about 15 because of the crazy price and use fillers and conversions for the rest of my herd. If the cost was a bit lower i would have bought 60 so i could run one unit of cave squigs and one unit of gnarly cave squigs with no filler models.

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 16:38
And about units for Core Choice i dont need huge units and i dont want crap quality because i do not play huge infantry armies and i do not want to collect ugly miniatures. So i know i don't need or cannot expect to get what i want with 1€$ per miniature.

That's a faulty assumption on your part. GW could easily produce a much cheaper Chaos Warrior kit while still turning a profit. They're not charging what they're charging because that's the bare minimum needed to keep them financially solvent. They're charging what they're charging in an attempt to gouge the customer base. Just look at the Sigmarines. Do you really think $50 for five is a legitimate price for them? They're smaller and apparently less detailed than Ogres, and yet you can buy six Ogres from GW for $40. Or here's a better example, Mantic Zombies, which you acknowledge as being better than GW's. And yet they charge $40 for 40 of them. The quality is there while the price is much, much lower. GW could easily knock the price of their kits down by a large margin and turn a healthy profit. They'd probably turn a better profit, actually, because as the poster above notes, they'd make more money through sales volume.

Sirius2.0
28-10-2015, 16:49
Making profit through volume is an approach that games workshop should have taken.
Realistically the market is a niche and without outside advertising (like dawn of war or total war for example) it is quite hard to recruit...
Combined with that, having smaller skirmish games as the ' starter' entry to games workshop, to lead into the full scale games would have been a prudent move. Use age of sigmar or something similar, kill team in 40k, as affordable means of stepping into the game. Then once the customer is in, allowing gradual but affordable graduation towards the main systems through affordable kits, is a much more sensible approach Towards cultivating sales and customer retention.