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Captain Idaho
27-10-2015, 09:36
Or whatever it's called.

My friend just returned from an amazing weekend of geekednest. Much fun was had.

He reported that AoS was represented and the rep promoting it was very friendly and good at his job.

The rep said that GW hasn't even touched upon what it has planned for it, using phrases like "it's just the tip of the iceberg" and that there were big things coming, including expanded rules.

Now, we all know I hate the game, but it's only fair to discuss it evenly.

I felt this was damage control and GW are PAINFULLY aware of the game's reception. My friend reported that he told the rep that we all played 8th and the guy was honest in that he sighed and said he missed it, yet if people start with just 1 or 2 miniatures and worked up like a narrative campaign for a warband, you'll enjoy it more. This didn't fly with my mates as it's a bunk argument.

So in conclusion - GW have stated they are bringing new stuff out and it appears to be in response to criticism though it could be part of the plan all along.

Which begs the question; if it was part of the plan all along, why didn't GW bring this decent stuff out at release and think they can peddle rubbish to us and we'll wait dutifully?

Personally, I don't believe it's anything special beyond scenarios and the like as the core rules are in place as are round bases.

Buddy Bear
27-10-2015, 09:45
The idea that expanded rules were planned all along is almost certainly rubbish. That's likely a reaction to the poor reception of the rules. Maybe somebody at GW finally figured out that the idea that 80% of their customers are only model collectors who never play is complete bunk?

And I agree, whatever new "rules" they bring out will probably be some kind of half assed scenario rules they cook up at the last minute.

williamsond
27-10-2015, 09:46
who know's where they intend to take the game, but it will take alot of very fundamental changes to AoS to drag me down that rabbit hole...

Niall78
27-10-2015, 09:49
Wasn't stuff like that getting said at GenCon months ago?

Weren't people told that there'd be an advanced rule-set coming? That an official points system was on the way?

They also got the patronising waffle about how sad staff were that WFB got canned.

That was months ago and there still isn't an official errata to the four pages of rules or answers to FAQs about the system.

At this stage I know GW employees are lying when I see their lips move.

theunwantedbeing
27-10-2015, 10:18
So the sales rep promoted the game at Comic Con eh?

I guess next you'll be telling us grass is green and water is wet.


Sounds like standard business practice to me.
You take the product you're wanting to produce, strip it down to the bare minimum and sell that.
If anyone asks why it hasn't got X, Y or Z then you tell them that it's an upcoming upgrade you're going to implement in the future at some point.

Bloodknight
27-10-2015, 10:29
So in conclusion - GW have stated they are bringing new stuff out and it appears to be in response to criticism though it could be part of the plan all along.

Nah, given the time it takes to get a product ready to launch, it can't be a reaction to anything yet.


why didn't GW bring this decent stuff out at release

Production capacity is not unlimited.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 10:30
So the sales rep promoted the game at Comic Con eh?

I guess next you'll be telling us grass is green and water is wet.


Sounds like standard business practice to me.
You take the product you're wanting to produce, strip it down to the bare minimum and sell that.
If anyone asks why it hasn't got X, Y or Z then you tell them that it's an upcoming upgrade you're going to implement in the future at some point.

If you don't have upgrades upcoming that is called 'lying'.

If you think it is standard practice for companies to lie to customers you haven't had much experience of business. The only thing worse than lying is ripping off your customers money. But then again the lie is usually to cover-up some type of rip-off.

Kahadras
27-10-2015, 10:37
The idea that expanded rules were planned all along is almost certainly rubbish. That's likely a reaction to the poor reception of the rules.

Pretty much this IMHO. GW's already published the AoS rulebook. What are they going to do? Publish another 45 book with the 'expanded rules'? I agree with Niall78. It's been months and GW have yet to put out an FAQ or errata for it's current AoS rules set. Are we to seriously believe that an expanded game is 'just around the corner'? Maybe in a year or two when GW feel that they can sneek out Age of Sigmar second edition and charge players another 45 for the rulebook and 35 for their army book. Maybe then we'll get a points system.

Spiney Norman
27-10-2015, 11:02
So if GW did bring out an expanded set of rules to AoS based on consumer feedback why would that actually be a bad thing? It seems to me that it would be a brilliant thing.

I mean isn't that what people praise companies like Mantic, PP and even Forgeorld for all the time? It's like even when GW do something we want them to do certain people can find a way to criticise them for doing it.

Tokamak
27-10-2015, 11:18
he sighed and said he missed it, yet if people start with just 1 or 2 miniatures and worked up like a narrative campaign for a warband, you'll enjoy it more. This didn't fly with my mates as it's a bunk argument.

The White Dwarf once came with two booklets with the Path of Chaos or something. It was about beastmen warbands. It featured Mordheim like rules to play a long series of games where your hero accumulated a warband and where your members could die or get wounded or mutate into nastier things.

It just used 6th edition rules, it was addictive and it was INFINITELY more interesting than this AoS travesty.

Kahadras
27-10-2015, 11:18
So if GW did bring out an expanded set of rules to AoS based on consumer feedback why would that actually be a bad thing? It seems to me that it would be a brilliant thing.

If it's free, then it would be a good thing. If GW actualy did it, then it would be a good thing. Let's not kid ourselves though; if an online update to the current rules set has yet to be done (which I'm pretty sure people have been calling for) what's the chance of them producing a whole expanded rules set based on customer feedback? Now IF GW were to do some expanded rules THEN we could praise them for it. I would assume people praise Mantic and PP not because they say they are going to do something but because they do something.

Berik
27-10-2015, 11:21
So if GW did bring out an expanded set of rules to AoS based on consumer feedback why would that actually be a bad thing? It seems to me that it would be a brilliant thing.

I mean isn't that what people praise companies like Mantic, PP and even Forgeorld for all the time? It's like even when GW do something we want them to do certain people can find a way to criticise them for doing it.

You missed the point. It would be great from them. Problem is that nobody believes it. When was the last time GW listened to the community?

Buddy Bear
27-10-2015, 11:26
Not to mention that we're talking about rules for a really lousy setting where half the player armies have been squatted. The issues extend far beyond just a lousy rules set.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 11:36
So if GW did bring out an expanded set of rules to AoS based on consumer feedback why would that actually be a bad thing? It seems to me that it would be a brilliant thing.

I mean isn't that what people praise companies like Mantic, PP and even Forgeorld for all the time? It's like even when GW do something we want them to do certain people can find a way to criticise them for doing it.

At the most basic level what customer feedback are GW soliciting from the player base at the moment?

ntw3001
27-10-2015, 11:53
The White Dwarf once came with two booklets with the Path of Chaos or something. It was about beastmen warbands. It featured Mordheim like rules to play a long series of games where your hero accumulated a warband and where your members could die or get wounded or mutate into nastier things.

It just used 6th edition rules, it was addictive and it was INFINITELY more interesting than this AoS travesty.
Path to Glory! I never got a chance to play it but I wanted to.

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

75hastings69
27-10-2015, 12:05
They did already do expanded rules......... "bring a photo of a cat" being one of them :D

Captain Idaho
27-10-2015, 12:09
Nah, given the time it takes to get a product ready to launch, it can't be a reaction to anything yet.



Production capacity is not unlimited.

Of course it can. GW are reacting by making plans and telling us "they're coming don't worry."

It's notable that the selling point of AoS is "don't worry, there's loads of stuff unreleased for it planned." Laughable.

Spiney Norman
27-10-2015, 12:25
Not to mention that we're talking about rules for a really lousy setting where half the player armies have been squatted. The issues extend far beyond just a lousy rules set.

Which armies are those? The ONLY army that was actually rumoured to be removed is getting their battle tome in a couple of weeks.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 12:29
Since it took 2 years to develop AoS there may be some ideas for advanced play as a fall back in case the current rules were not received well. 2 years is a long time to develop a pen and paper game derived from another game.

I could imagine their putting out the simplist version of their work in hopes it was well received as that would cut development costs going forward. As a fall back they could have an advanced version that they'd have preferred not to use due to ongoing development.

If we think back to the infamous Spanish rumors there was talk of a version that had some more elements and some additional rules that clearly didn't make it to AoS but did reference the simplified stat mechanics and such.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 12:31
Also for what its worth the day that AoS was released, our GW manager said the exact same words (before there was any massive rage fest online) - that this was just the tip of the iceberg and there were a ton of new models and new rules coming out in the months ahead.

ToLongDidntRead
27-10-2015, 12:36
Meh, just regurgitation of what was said 3-4 months ago. 3-4 months later and all we get is some lousy repacks. Here's hoping GW surprise me and release something new in November after the HH release.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 12:40
Also for what its worth the day that AoS was released, our GW manager said the exact same words (before there was any massive rage fest online) - that this was just the tip of the iceberg and there were a ton of new models and new rules coming out in the months ahead.

Yeah we had week after week of new models - the fantasy marines/chaos marines. We also had the over-priced scenario books with extra rules. A castle. Now we are getting a repack/renaming of lizardmen. I think we've had the ton of new models and rules already. It'll be all 40Ks and HHs turn for the next few months.

Anyone super excited about the repacked/renamed lizardmen this month?

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 12:56
Also fo r what its worth the day that AoS was released, our GW manager said the exact same words (before there was any massive rage fest online) - that this was just the tip of the iceberg and there were a ton of new models and new rules coming out in the months ahead.

And that was true in the loosest sense but it wasn't anything anyone was interested in. Ok, maybe anyone is an overstatement but most people.

Our area GW rep also said there were tournament rules coming and a valid points system, in the same sentence where he was trying to convince the LGS to buy more AoS in anticipation of a sales uptick. I suspect GEs sales staff may not be the most trustworthy source of future release plans.

I think the rep briefing (consistent across several countries) which stated "AoS rules are complete", "no advanced rules coming", etc is as close to the truth as anything.

Arkon
27-10-2015, 13:08
I agree that some effort has been made by GW for AoS. But I think the problem is that it ether wasn’t aimed well or didn’t convinced enough people. Only the basic concept of Sigmarines, Khorne Warriors, the new world and the new rules were something really new, in in my eyes, failed regarding quality. The books, the castle, the same Sigmarines over weeks who only differed by some wings, weapons and especially the repacking an renaming was not much to help getting people into the game, but wasted capacity.

Of course GW should try to repair the damage. But I think the openness for new GW-experiments dropped strongly in the community after AoS, and this will be somewhat hard to overcome by GW, regardless what they have in the pipe. Honestly, I don’t think they will make it.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 13:12
And that was true in the loosest sense but it wasn't anything anyone was interested in. Ok, maybe anyone is an overstatement but most people.

Our area GW rep also said there were tournament rules coming and a valid points system, in the same sentence where he was trying to convince the LGS to buy more AoS in anticipation of a sales uptick. I suspect GEs sales staff may not be the most trustworthy source of future release plans.

I think the rep briefing (consistent across several countries) which stated "AoS rules are complete", "no advanced rules coming", etc is as close to the truth as anything.

Yeah I honestly have no idea. I was mainly stating that because some were saying that GW was only saying this now because they saw that AOS was "bombing", and it was something that they had been saying since the beginning. Whether or not those rules exist, are any good, etc... remains to be seen.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 13:18
Yeah I honestly have no idea. I was mainly stating that because some were saying that GW was only saying this now because they saw that AOS was "bombing", and it was something that they had been saying since the beginning. Whether or not those rules exist, are any good, etc... remains to be seen.

It was probably first pitched by GW staff when the initial reaction of WFB fans was - "Four pages of rules? WTF!?"

Yrch
27-10-2015, 13:22
Thats the biggest problem i have with GW, they are so silent about their future releases, if we didn't have leaks we wouldn't know whats coming until the WD releases.
Other companies like FFG show customers new stuff month in advance (SW:Rebels ships for X-Wing).
I'm sure there is a buisness reason to this why they don't show a clear roadmap, but maybe a little press release here and there which states a general overlook would be nice.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 13:30
They stopped advanced rumors etc because they don't want other companies pilfering their IP and releasing models to coincide with theirs only cheaper.

I don't agree with it either but thats what it is.

Yrch
27-10-2015, 13:42
They stopped advanced rumors etc because they don't want other companies pilfering their IP and releasing models to coincide with theirs only cheaper.

I don't agree with it either but thats what it is.

I can understand that, but i think a simple "No army or model will be squatted and we will release additionla rules for advanced player in Q2 2016" or something like that would make a lot of people happy and haters shut up ;)

Comrade Penguin
27-10-2015, 13:45
I think it is more that they want you excited for what they are releasing right now, and not what they are planning on releasing in 6 months. GW really wants you to impulse buy their pretty models.

SuperHappyTime
27-10-2015, 13:52
That was months ago and there still isn't an official errata to the four pages of rules or answers to FAQs about the system.

GW hasn't released an FAQ on any of their recent codices either.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 14:01
GW hasn't released an FAQ on any of their recent codices either.

It's just an obvious outward sign of the contempt they have for their customers.

My FAQs for other companies usually get answered in hours by a line developer or their representative on their customer forums.

Kahadras
27-10-2015, 14:23
They stopped advanced rumors etc because they don't want other companies pilfering their IP and releasing models to coincide with theirs only cheaper.

I honestly feel that GW shot itself in the foot with this kind of thinking and it doesn't make a lot of sense from what else GW are telling us. They say that they make some of the best minatures in the world and that people want to buy these minatures. They then tell us that they don't do advanced rumours because they're worried that other companies will produce cheap knock off minatures that people will buy instead. Hype is such a big part of marketing these days that I find it amazing that GW chooses to avoid it. Could you imagine the new Star Wars movie being released with no trailers?

Basically what GW have done is to make sure we, as customers, are flying blind. We have no idea about what the plans are for AoS (or anything else for that matter). On the other hand I've been looking forward to FFG's Star Wars Armarda wave two for months now.

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 14:29
GW is going for the impulse buy.

GW's marketing is run by clowns. It is one thing about GW that I really really cannot stand - how they market their product and how inept they are at doing so.

Kahadras
27-10-2015, 14:46
GW is going for the impulse buy.

GW's marketing is run by clowns. It is one thing about GW that I really really cannot stand - how they market their product and how inept they are at doing so.

To be fair the GW board and legal department also belong in the circus. Impulse buying only gets you so far.

Captain Idaho
27-10-2015, 15:16
They aren't going for the impulse customers in my view. They style themselves as premium products in a niche market with no advertising.

75hastings69
27-10-2015, 15:27
That is the whole problem in a nutshell. Even here there are several views of who GW are aiming their products at. But I genuinely don't think GW have the slightest idea of who their target market are, this is sadly what happens when you cease all communication with your customer base, don't engage them, don't find out what they want or need, and basically set yourself up in some ivory tower (kind of fitting with the citadel logo) where you ignore any formative feedback and then openly dismiss it, to the point of basically saying "they'll buy what we tell them to". We've seen this lack of customer communication before as many of you will know, and we all know how that ended up. I think GW have gone past the point of no return now when it comes to communicating with the customer/fanbase.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 15:30
They aren't going for the impulse customers in my view. They style themselves as premium products in a niche market with no advertising.

Part of GWs schizophrenic nature. They want you to buy the new shiny thing. But they also need you to buy that item over and over to build an army.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 15:31
They aren't going for the impulse customers in my view. They style themselves as premium products in a niche market with no advertising.

If AoS has burned independent stores as badly as many believe GWs chance of impulse buys also drops further as these stores will reduce or completely drop AoS from their shelf space.

daveNYC
27-10-2015, 15:32
GW is going for the impulse buy.

GW's marketing is run by clowns. It is one thing about GW that I really really cannot stand - how they market their product and how inept they are at doing so.

Yeah. I'm not sure how you target impulse buyers when your products are only available at specialty stores and prices start at $25. Not much spur of the moment involved there.

Soundwave
27-10-2015, 15:45
That is the whole problem in a nutshell. Even here there are several views of who GW are aiming their products at. But I genuinely don't think GW have the slightest idea of who their target market are, this is sadly what happens when you cease all communication with your customer base, don't engage them, don't find out what they want or need, and basically set yourself up in some ivory tower (kind of fitting with the citadel logo) where you ignore any formative feedback and then openly dismiss it, to the point of basically saying "they'll buy what we tell them to". We've seen this lack of customer communication before as many of you will know, and we all know how that ended up. I think GW have gone past the point of no return now when it comes to communicating with the customer/fanbase.
Indeed. I was asked to do a survey after a purchase online at the G.W web store just before AOS dropped. I thought wait what? , no, no way, why should I talk to them and provide them with info when they NEVER communicate with us?

BramGaunt
27-10-2015, 15:51
So if GW did bring out an expanded set of rules to AoS based on consumer feedback why would that actually be a bad thing? It seems to me that it would be a brilliant thing.

I mean isn't that what people praise companies like Mantic, PP and even Forgeorld for all the time? It's like even when GW do something we want them to do certain people can find a way to criticise them for doing it.

Because we are talking about Games Workshop. A company with 30+ years of experience. They should not have to be taken by the hand and led across the street like a feeble old Lady. It would be an apreciated move, but still begs the question why did it have to come to this necessity in the first place?

Sephillion
27-10-2015, 16:12
If they release a new set of rules, or expanded rules beyond scrolls for walls and scenarios, there is still the boring setting.

Besides, at this point, GW has lost my confidence. Who’s to say they don’t do, in a few years, to a new and improved AoS what they did to WHFB? Those rules would have to be absolutely *********** stellar to win me over.

EagleWarrior
27-10-2015, 16:21
My wife was at UK Comic con, as were some of my friends, and she spoke to the AoS representatives. She said it seemed a lot like damage control, and they mentioned 'You may have heard bad things about it on the internet'. They're clearly aware of how much dissatisfaction there is, although it remains to be seen what they intend to do about it.

Spiney Norman
27-10-2015, 16:44
Because we are talking about Games Workshop. A company with 30+ years of experience. They should not have to be taken by the hand and led across the street like a feeble old Lady. It would be an apreciated move, but still begs the question why did it have to come to this necessity in the first place?

So when GW listen to customers they're 'being led across the road like a feeble old lady' and when PP or Mantic do it they're being awesome, hobby-centred, responsible companies. Yeah that's not a double standard. I mean given GW's history the very fact that they have a rep going round conventions demoing their product is a HUGE step forward. Personally I think GWs attitude to marketing over the last absolutely stinks, and I'm really happy to see a step, albeit a small one, in the right direction instead of continuing their self-destuctive course of the last decade.

75hastings69
27-10-2015, 16:47
Part of GWs schizophrenic nature. They want you to buy the new shiny thing. .....

Or in the case of the new Seraphon army..... the slightly less shiny old thing :D

75hastings69
27-10-2015, 16:52
So when GW listen to customers they're 'being led across the road like a feeble old lady' and when PP or Mantic do it they're being awesome, hobby-centred, responsible companies. Yeah that's not a double standard. I mean given GW's history the very fact that they have a rep going round conventions demoing their product is a HUGE step forward. Personally I think GWs attitude to marketing over the last absolutely stinks, and I'm really happy to see a step, albeit a small one, in the right direction instead of continuing their self-destuctive course of the last decade.

But it's a step every other company took years ago, in fact the other companies have stepped so much that GW are now left behind at the starting line when it comes to customer interaction/communication. I mean look at the shambles of games day, or the recent open day - where as is now the norm GW refused to speak about or show anything, and FW picked up the slack.... again! I have a feeling GW wouldn't know if someone was up them sideways with an arm full of deckchairs.

ToLongDidntRead
27-10-2015, 16:57
My wife was at UK Comic con, as were some of my friends, and she spoke to the AoS representatives. She said it seemed a lot like damage control, and they mentioned 'You may have heard bad things about it on the internet'. They're clearly aware of how much dissatisfaction there is, although it remains to be seen what they intend to do about it.


I'm calling it now, these will be the reasons listed in the next financial report as to why AoS has not be a resounding success;


- Store Managers did not push the game hard enough.
- The game hasn't had a wide enough range of releases as of yet to judge whether it has been successful.
- The "noisy few" are wrong when they say they don't like the new product,as random unrelated occurrence "X" shows there is interest in the game.

Infact with my second point, I think I just answered the question, as to why we didn't get any new Seraphon models. Well at least we'll get Duardin mid next year according to Sad Panda.


--------------------------------------------------------


And I have to agree with everyone who says GW is way to far apart from other companies in how they interact with companies. Apple is one of the few companies in the world that can get away with acting how GW works, and that's because they produce products that are a integral part of people's lives. Miniatures are not that sort of product.


The fact is marketing is pivotal in this day and age to build up and maintain your brand image, which is almost as important as the product itself. When you have a good brand name the product sells itself, must because it has your company name on it. With the whole finecast incident, destruction of one it's main IP's and general arrogance GW has left it's brand name in tatters. When you combine that with next to marketing. Ie: The very thing companies use to build/maintain their brand name. Well you can see why GW really need to start communicating with their customers more.

As for sneak peaks. It's not even like GW need to make huge reveals like other smaller companies, they do after all still have a somewhat large fanbase. Something like a WIP arm/head, or even a codex cover is enough to begin drumming up interest.


Them going to events like Comic-Con, and the their new advent calander thing are two smallsteps in the right direction.

Katastrophe
27-10-2015, 17:06
So when GW listen to customers they're 'being led across the road like a feeble old lady' and when PP or Mantic do it they're being awesome, hobby-centred, responsible companies. Yeah that's not a double standard. I mean given GW's history the very fact that they have a rep going round conventions demoing their product is a HUGE step forward. Personally I think GWs attitude to marketing over the last absolutely stinks, and I'm really happy to see a step, albeit a small one, in the right direction instead of continuing their self-destuctive course of the last decade.

Fair, kinda.

When other companies do it (and have done it) is because they have shown a pattern of genuinely caring about the player/customer base and want the players/customers to get what they want within the game/models parameters set by the company. GW has repeated for years spit in the face of their players/customers and would only be listening because they have no other choice. They may take that action but it would be with resentment and resistance.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 17:18
So when GW listen to customers they're 'being led across the road like a feeble old lady' and when PP or Mantic do it they're being awesome, hobby-centred, responsible companies. Yeah that's not a double standard. I mean given GW's history the very fact that they have a rep going round conventions demoing their product is a HUGE step forward. Personally I think GWs attitude to marketing over the last absolutely stinks, and I'm really happy to see a step, albeit a small one, in the right direction instead of continuing their self-destuctive course of the last decade.

Where are GW soliciting opinions from their customers? Send me a link so I can participate. I know where the other companies you mention talk to their customers.

Buddy Bear
27-10-2015, 17:21
Which armies are those? The ONLY army that was actually rumoured to be removed is getting their battle tome in a couple of weeks.

Empire
Bretonnia
High Elves
Wood Elves
Dark Elves
Chaos Dwarfs

Thpse at the very least. Or are you going to try to claim that somewhere on the floating islands of the Shimmertarn new Grail Knights are being produced, even though the Lady of the Lake turned out to be a fraud and died, Bretonnia was blown up, and the Bretonnian people are extinct?

Pojko
27-10-2015, 17:28
If they release a new set of rules, or expanded rules beyond scrolls for walls and scenarios, there is still the boring setting.

That's my main problem too. I can tolerate the loss of blocks of infantry and points values. But Games Workshop killed the setting that I loved. Decades of setting and lore. This I cannot forgive.

Yeah, it may not have been the most original and copyrightable, but neither is the Norse mythology ripoff that is Age of Sigmar. Have fun when other companies start making Bronze Golem Guardians who defend the realm of Asgard.

Niall78
27-10-2015, 17:29
Empire
Bretonnia
High Elves
Wood Elves
Dark Elves
Chaos Dwarfs

Thpse at the very least. Or are you going to try to claim that somewhere on the floating islands of the Shimmertarn new Grail Knights are being produced, even though the Lady of the Lake turned out to be a fraud and died, Bretonnia was blown up, and the Bretonnian people are extinct?

'But there's war-scrolls for all those factions' - will be the slightly dishonest reply. In reality we know that at least these factions are gone unless we see a retcon bigger than "Bobby" Ewing stepping out of the shower.

Buddy Bear
27-10-2015, 17:35
Yeah. The Squats had models available for sale and could use the black and white pamphlet book to be playable for years, but they were squatted just the same, because GW had no intention of creating new units for them or updating their rules, and would ultimately remove them from the setting. The above armies are all one step beyond the Squats, because they already have been removed from the setting. And if they haven't, well, where's the new Hoeth producing Swordmasters of Hoeth? Where are the new Colleges of Magic? Where's the mention of Warrior Priests and Witch Hunters? Where are the Pistoliers and Outriders in the setting? Where are the engineers building Steam Tanks and Helblaster Volley Guns? Has gunpowder even been discovered in the new setting? Those armies have been squatted, plain and simple.

logan054
27-10-2015, 17:35
So if GW did bring out an expanded set of rules to AoS based on consumer feedback why would that actually be a bad thing? It seems to me that it would be a brilliant thing.

I mean isn't that what people praise companies like Mantic, PP and even Forgeorld for all the time? It's like even when GW do something we want them to do certain people can find a way to criticise them for doing it.
I think it's more Gw aren't known for doing it. I'd be pleasantly surprised if they did.

If Gw came out with some hybrid AoS/8th ed system them I'd be more interested in giving it a try. If that khorne army book had of been released for a system I play I'd of been all over that.

Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalk

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 17:37
Bretonnia and empire are humans. Humans exist. Bretonnia and the empire do not exist. Correct, bretonnia and the empire were squatted, as was the whole old world but the models have rules therefore can be used as humans in the new setting, which exist in the stories as well (normal humans not sigmarines).

Chaos dwarfs were "squatted" back in 6th edition (2000).

The elves are also talked about in numerous places in the fiction. They may not exist as "high elves, wood elves dark elves" but the models exist, they have rules, they are a different named faction now.

So pedantically speaking the entire old world was destroyed so yes all of the races are dead and the models carry over into new names but keep rules to keep playing.

When an army is said to be squatted, that commonly means it has no rules or anything, not that its names have been changed. When I tell someone that their faction is squatted, I'm telling them that their models cannot be used anymore, there are no rules for them, they are totally gone. Thats what most people that I know understand the term to refer to anyway.

So to say humans are squatted, when they feature prominently in the narrative up to date, and elves are squatted, when they feature in the narrative, is to me being dishonest. Because it insinuates that they are gone and will never get any new rules. Pedantically the empire and bretonnia are indeed gone forever. Because the whole old world is gone forever.

There is a gulf of difference in saying

"the empire and bretonnia are gone now"

and

"the empire and bretonnia are gone now, your armies are squatted and will no longer ever get new rules" because that implies that the current models that exist are no longer valid - which I believe to be the point of saying such a thing - just as it was in trying to pass off lizardmen as being squatted and removed from the game - its to get an emotional reaction out of people.

Sephillion
27-10-2015, 17:44
So when GW listen to customers they're 'being led across the road like a feeble old lady' and when PP or Mantic do it they're being awesome, hobby-centred, responsible companies. Yeah that's not a double standard. I mean given GW's history the very fact that they have a rep going round conventions demoing their product is a HUGE step forward. Personally I think GWs attitude to marketing over the last absolutely stinks, and I'm really happy to see a step, albeit a small one, in the right direction instead of continuing their self-destuctive course of the last decade.

Who is responsible for the double-standard? GW. The reason other companies “get away” with things that GW don’t is that they have earned their customers’ trust and good will. GW eroded theirs. They did so by not listening to people, keeping increasing the costs over and over, releasing badly balanced books, releasing edition after edition and codex after codex (and not warning players of such releases in advance), turning their site into a fancy online catalog/store, not showing what they’re planning, not caring about the tournament scene, rehashing fluff, reducing the amount of fluff and artwork in codices but charging the same price, butchering one of their world and replacing it with a world they don’t want to show us in all its glory because they’re afraid of third parties, suing companies over nothing, missing GenCon due to a stupid mistake, creating dumb rules like bring a pic of your cat to get bonuses at an event, releasing their stupid top 10 things about AoS, and so on.

They keep making decisions that will turn players away from them. The only thing that saves them is that they still make some very fine models (technically speaking). That’s the only good thing, the rest is bloody awful.

Griefbringer
27-10-2015, 18:50
Chaos dwarfs were "squatted" back in 6th edition (2000).


When 6th edition came out, Chaos Dwarfs received an official army list in the Ravening Hordes booklet, like almost every other army (Dogs of War being an exception, though they were covered in WD during the next two months).

HelloKitty
27-10-2015, 20:19
Yes this is true - however they never got any new models or updates. A few posters have indicated that that is the criteria for squatted (considering all existing armies have gotten warscrolls just like chaos dwarfs got the ravening hordes treatment)

Spiney Norman
27-10-2015, 20:40
'But there's war-scrolls for all those factions' - will be the slightly dishonest reply. In reality we know that at least these factions are gone unless we see a retcon bigger than "Bobby" Ewing stepping out of the shower.

Not at all, but the reality is that none of us know with certainty whether those factions (or renamed factions like them) will exist in AoS. Actually we do know that elves survive in some form, will they be more like dark elves, high elves or wood elves or a mixture of the three? We'll have to wait and see, will there be 'regular human' armies based on a renaissance or medieval knightly/feudal theme? Again we just don't know right now.

As for chaos dwarfs, GW abandoned them years ago and their revival by Forgeworld was half-hearted at best, and for all we know chaos duardin may absolutely be on the AoS menu. Given the trend in 40k to bring back minor sub-factions that have been abandoned or sidelined years ago (harlequins, inquisition, assassins, imperial Knights) I'd say there is a pretty good chance they will find a way into the expanding AoS mythos if the game keeps going long enough.

75hastings69
28-10-2015, 01:52
FW did intend to go further with CD but with the efforts all being channeled to HH WFB had to take a back seat, then there were issues between GW & FW which led to that back seat becoming the back seat of a very very long limo. As such we never got monstrous arcanum 2 etc. and probably won't now either.

I'll give a small example of sneak peaks & customer interaction done right. Knight Models (who are tiny compared to GW) have recently announced they intend to release a range of Arkham Legends (I think it was called) this would contain resin models, such as vehicles, alternate sculpts, and also iconic buildings from the DC universe, to accompany this announcement they showed an image of what I can only assume is part of a resin batmobile/tumbler, just part of the picture, and it has built a lot of excitement! They are active on forums and facebook and take take to reply and listen to the community, they even asked what we would like to see as part of the Legends range!!!!! Imagine GW doing that?! And the best thing is Legends isn't just around the corner, it's a way out yet.

FFG do it with X-Wing & Imperial assault, we know not only what ships form part of what waves next year but they even show us the rules!

GW have zero communication with their customers on any level. Is it therefore any surprise that they've released a product that very few people are actually happy with?

Voss
28-10-2015, 02:13
GW hasn't released an FAQ on any of their recent codices either.

According to the seminar at '40k' Open Day, they don't intend to either. They'll correct typos, but apparently all FAQs have 'common sense' answers that invalidate the need to do them at all.

Dosiere
28-10-2015, 04:38
According to the seminar at '40k' Open Day, they don't intend to either. They'll correct typos, but apparently all FAQs have 'common sense' answers that invalidate the need to do them at all.

I wish that were true, I really do. It's fair to say that some (maybe most?) of the questions can be answered by intent. Sometimes it's just really clear that the "issue" at hand is an exploit or nonsensical. A lot of times its not. It was VERY VERY frustrating to me that some of the more discussed topics about the last Space Marine just never got answered. It's rather arrogant of them, and has really turned me off to GW as a company. I still don't really know if they intended you to take multiple chapter relics on a character or not! Some people think it's obvious, and just as many disagree. That's what the FAQs are for yes? Oh GW... what happened to you?

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 04:44
I wish that were true, I really do. It's fair to say that some (maybe most?) of the questions can be answered by intent. Sometimes it's just really clear that the "issue" at hand is an exploit or nonsensical. A lot of times its not. It was VERY VERY frustrating to me that some of the more discussed topics about the last Space Marine just never got answered. It's rather arrogant of them, and has really turned me off to GW as a company. I still don't really know if they intended you to take multiple chapter relics on a character or not! Some people think it's obvious, and just as many disagree. That's what the FAQs are for yes? Oh GW... what happened to you?

And the funny thing was that the built-in army builder on the iBook version of the 6th edition codex allowed you to take multiple relics on a character, while the army builder on the 7th edition codex doesn't, even though the wording has stayed the same between both books, so clearly one of those builders is in error.

Dosiere
28-10-2015, 04:47
So when GW listen to customers they're 'being led across the road like a feeble old lady' and when PP or Mantic do it they're being awesome, hobby-centred, responsible companies. Yeah that's not a double standard. I mean given GW's history the very fact that they have a rep going round conventions demoing their product is a HUGE step forward. Personally I think GWs attitude to marketing over the last absolutely stinks, and I'm really happy to see a step, albeit a small one, in the right direction instead of continuing their self-destuctive course of the last decade.

If GW did it well and for an extended period of time I would most certainly think it's a positive move. I would take some convincing though, it would be hard to believe and even harder to believe it would continue into the future. Talking to your customer base is not always pleasant and takes time. To truly do it requires a set of objectives and priorities that places enough value on those interactions to see them through the bad ones. This would only happen with a serious change to management though at the company. Opinions change, values usually don't. GW doesn't care what any of us have to say, and never will unless something drastic happens.

A no name rep going around talking about nothing really important and not actually trying to get feedback doesn't really seem like a big change? I'm not sure how you can even start to compare what is happening here to the kind of community involvement you see from companies like FFG or Mantic?

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 04:56
Honestly, if GW were to retcon the Warhammer Fantasy world back into existence with the old rules I'd play Warhammer Fantasy again in a heartbeat. So is it possible that GW would listen to its players and produce better rules for Age of Sigmar? Sure, but what good are better rules, though, when the armies I want to play are wiped out of existence and the new setting is a mediocre mess? Rules by themselves aren't enough. I want an interesting game world to get into, and the Old World had that in spades, while the Nine Realms of Norse Mythology don't. Give me a choice between Averland and the floating islands of the Shimmertarn and I'll take Averland every single time.

Deadhorse
28-10-2015, 07:13
If the AoS releases so far have been "the tip of the iceberg", then I can only assume that tip is placed firmly against the WFB gaming community's collective anus and the "more to come" includes higher prices, audio rulebooks in the sing along format and backpack add-ons for sigmarines. Unimaginably for GW, the gaming community left rather than be buggered and here we are. Sales reps don't know anything about the future of AoS because that's how the company works. In the face of adversity they can only fall back on excuses such as "wait, you haven't seen the whole thing, it'll be grand!". Much in the spirit of "oversell/underdeliver", this is targeted at the few gullile people who think that the unpalatable AoS combination of terrible rules, apalling fluff and ridiculous prices can be salvaged by initiatives such as repacking old lizardmen with new bases and throwing in a scenario book.

Even if the "more to come" statement is true, for me it's basically coming from someone who broke into my home, vandalized my hobby cabinet and smeared poop over all my WFB books. The only reason these promises don't scare me as much as they would have several months ago is that I've no more hobby for this guy to ruin.

Spiney Norman
28-10-2015, 07:36
According to the seminar at '40k' Open Day, they don't intend to either. They'll correct typos, but apparently all FAQs have 'common sense' answers that invalidate the need to do them at all.

And the reality is that most of them do, but the culture of 'abuse the rules to the max' which WFB and 40k promoted does not like that because having to discuss potential common-sense solutions with your opponent is kind of hard to do when your principle aim is to grind him beneath your iron-shod boot.

I happen to think that GW trying to push their games in a more friendly direction rather than the rather heartless 'grow a pair' culture of warmahordes is a huge positive step, but it's going to be an incredibly difficult, perhaps even painful transition for people locked in the super-competitive mindset that their games formerly thrived on.

Niall78
28-10-2015, 07:49
And the reality is that most of them do, but the culture of 'abuse the rules to the max' which WFB and 40k promoted does not like that because having to discuss potential common-sense solutions with your opponent is kind of hard to do when your principle aim is to grind him beneath your iron-shod boot.

I happen to think that GW trying to push their games in a more friendly direction rather than the rather heartless 'grow a pair' culture of warmahordes is a huge positive step, but it's going to be an incredibly difficult, perhaps even painful transition for people locked in the super-competitive mindset that their games formerly thrived on.

You can excuse their contempt for their customers by not answering FAQs all you like. The excuses don't stand up to any scrutiny though.

GW are trying to push games in a friendlier direction by not engaging with their customers by answering simple rules questions like every other gaming company in the world. What an excuse. Thanks for your laziness and contempt GW - at least it's for everyone's long-term benefit - a friendlier gaming community through broken, contradictory and unclear rules.

Why don't GW push their games in a friendlier direction by sorting out rules issues to avoid conflict between players? It isn't rocket science - every other company can mange it. GW must have sacked their FAQ guy a few years ago to try and stabilise Kirby's share price.

Deschain
28-10-2015, 08:03
I've returned to the hobby after a long break and I'm disgusted to see the general attitude on this forum. You guys are a bunch of cynical, stubborn, self entitled nerds pouring vitriol on everything. I saw this same attitude in world of Warcraft and look where that is now. It's good that a company has creative ideas and doesn't bow to every arm chair critic on the Internet. Take your sulking hat off, take a step back and look at the whole scene from a positive perspective. This is the ground floor of age of sigmar, imagine warhammer 30 years ago or the arrival of warhammer 40k... The rules can be updated online, the days of 300 page rule books sitting on your shelf is over. It's becoming a pointless exercise reading these forums. I can predict every post.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Niall78
28-10-2015, 08:32
I've returned to the hobby after a long break and I'm disgusted to see the general attitude on this forum. You guys are a bunch of cynical, stubborn, self entitled nerds pouring vitriol on everything. I saw this same attitude in world of Warcraft and look where that is now. It's good that a company has creative ideas and doesn't bow to every arm chair critic on the Internet. Take your sulking hat off, take a step back and look at the whole scene from a positive perspective. This is the ground floor of age of sigmar, imagine warhammer 30 years ago or the arrival of warhammer 40k... The rules can be updated online, the days of 300 page rule books sitting on your shelf is over. It's becoming a pointless exercise reading these forums. I can predict every post.


Good input.

Do you believe GW ignore FAQs - unlike every other company in the industry - to make the scene friendlier?

The lack of FAQs is an attempt to make the world a better place?

Deschain
28-10-2015, 08:44
I can't say I don't work for them but I doubt they ignore its more likely they just don't respond. The lack of FAQs is most likely an attempt to not compromise on ip. Do novelists consult on their works and change them before they are printed? I suppose video games have betas but that doesn't make them flawless on day 1. We expect so much from our products in the 21st century.


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Niall78
28-10-2015, 09:00
I can't say I don't work for them but I doubt they ignore its more likely they just don't respond. The lack of FAQs is most likely an attempt to not compromise on ip. Do novelists consult on their works and change them before they are printed? I suppose video games have betas but that doesn't make them flawless on day 1. We expect so much from our products in the 21st century.

They don't ignore FAQ - they just don't respond to FAQs. Clear as mud. Isn't that the same thing?

Explain how clarifying rules issues compromises their IP? That's a new one.

Authors have editors. Books are frequently heavily rewritten - let alone minor changes to aid plot or clarity.

Nobody is asking for perfect product. Just a willingness to fix broken product. The bare minimum a customer should expect from any company in any walk of life.

Holier Than Thou
28-10-2015, 09:17
I can't say I don't work for them but I doubt they ignore its more likely they just don't respond.
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Brilliant. And it's not that Games Workshop have released a terrible product at an extortionate price, it's that they have released a game that isn't any good for a price that far outweighs it's value. And it's not that my car is silver, it's just that my car could not be described as not-silver.

Niall78
28-10-2015, 10:39
Brilliant. And it's not that Games Workshop have released a terrible product at an extortionate price, it's that they have released a game that isn't any good for a price that far outweighs it's value. And it's not that my car is silver, it's just that my car could not be described as not-silver.

There's some great stuff getting posted these last few days.

- I doubt they ignore FAQs its more likely they just don't respond.

- The Warhammer World AoS tournament was cancelled because GW forgot about Christmas.

- Narrative gamers are not interested in setting books, faction books or even the fluff behind their faction.

- The Empire and Bretonnia still exist in AoS because there are humans in AoS and Empire and Bretonnia are human factions.

- Frequently asked questions to GW aren't answered as GW want to promote friendlier gaming environments for customers.

- The AoS starter set - advertised by GW as a starter set - isn't really a starter set.

It's like the mental hoop jumping Olympics lately.

Buddy Bear
28-10-2015, 10:50
Don't forget that the AOS starter set doesn't sell because it's not meant to sell. It's meant to sit on the shelves of the game store undisturbed to remind people the game exists until the next edition comes out.

Holier Than Thou
28-10-2015, 10:52
There's some great stuff getting posted these last few days.

- I doubt they ignore FAQs its more likely they just don't respond.

- The Warhammer World AoS tournament was cancelled because GW forgot about Christmas.

- Narrative gamers are not interested in setting books, faction books or even the fluff behind their faction.

- The Empire and Bretonnia still exist in AoS because there are humans in AoS and Empire and Bretonnia are human factions.

- Frequently asked questions to GW aren't answered as GW want to promote friendlier gaming environments for customers.

- The AoS starter set - advertised by GW as a starter set - isn't really a starter set.

It's like the mental hoop jumping Olympics lately.

Some of them need to be drug-tested, no mere human should be able to jump through so many hoops without some kind of performance enhancer.

Deadhorse
28-10-2015, 11:23
It's the sunk-cost fallacy.

Once you bought a Ford Edsel, you have to either admit to yourself that it was a poor choice, or praise it, convincing yourself and anyone willing to listen ("it's not so bad, indeed it is almost quite good!")

These are the choices many poster's brains have to make:

Think:
"GW does not publish FAQs and has terrible support, so I made a stupid decision buying AoS and have wasted money. They said GW is a bad company, but I didn't listen. I am such a fool."

OR think:
"The rules are clear enough, who needs FAQs anyway? Competitive ********** and nitpickers, that's who! GW is probably trying to promote a non-competitive game. I'm such a cool non-competitive gamer, so much better than those jerks!"


Think:
"Almost nobody but me and Toby are playing AoS in all of New York. And Toby didn't even buy anything, he's just using his old Wood Elves from 2001. And he's started getting into X-Wing anyway. This game has bombed and GW will drop it soon. I've wasted money and time on the Sigmarines. How much did that *******' gold paint cost? I am so gullible."

Or think:
"Just because AoS litters the discount bins here doesn't mean its not hugely popular in some places, and GW have promised sooo much support and great things to come! This game is just starting out, how popular was Warhammer 30 years ago? If only the negative people weren't so negative, the hobby would grow so much faster. Damn the negative people and their whining, I am always positive. It's awesome and cool to be postive!"

Spiney Norman
28-10-2015, 11:25
I've returned to the hobby after a long break and I'm disgusted to see the general attitude on this forum. You guys are a bunch of cynical, stubborn, self entitled nerds pouring vitriol on everything. I saw this same attitude in world of Warcraft and look where that is now. It's good that a company has creative ideas and doesn't bow to every arm chair critic on the Internet. Take your sulking hat off, take a step back and look at the whole scene from a positive perspective. This is the ground floor of age of sigmar, imagine warhammer 30 years ago or the arrival of warhammer 40k... The rules can be updated online, the days of 300 page rule books sitting on your shelf is over. It's becoming a pointless exercise reading these forums. I can predict every post.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pretty much spot on with everything here, fortunately in a couple of weeks most of my 'forum time' is going to be taken up with the new Horus Heresy stuff on the 40k boards so niall and buddy can just get on with posting rants and patting each other on the back for starting different gaming systems and pretending that anyone on Internet actually cares what they do with their spare time.

If you want sensible reasoned discussion about Age of Sigmar I'm sure there are places on the Internet you can go for that, Warseer never was one of them. You only need to look at Anteater's thread about how he was having a great experience with AoS and how certain posters just turned the whole thing into a vitriolic poo-storm against AoS to see what a positive attitude gets you around here.

Zywus
28-10-2015, 11:28
There's some great stuff getting posted these last few days.

- I doubt they ignore FAQs its more likely they just don't respond.

- The Warhammer World AoS tournament was cancelled because GW forgot about Christmas.

- Narrative gamers are not interested in setting books, faction books or even the fluff behind their faction.

- The Empire and Bretonnia still exist in AoS because there are humans in AoS and Empire and Bretonnia are human factions.

- Frequently asked questions to GW aren't answered as GW want to promote friendlier gaming environments for customers.

- The AoS starter set - advertised by GW as a starter set - isn't really a starter set.

It's like the mental hoop jumping Olympics lately.
:D It's really amazing in't it.

I think that not answering FAQ's in order to promote a friendlier environment is my favorite. Can't wait to see what of impossible mental manouvres we'll be treated to once GW goes full 30k mode and puts AoS promotion in hiatus for the rest of the year..

Deadhorse
28-10-2015, 11:30
They're giving us time to explore the amazing AoS universe?
They're preparing something massive for an upcoming release?
They're allowing us to enjoy our legacy armies for longer before squat... ahem, updating them with the AoS look?

Sirius2.0
28-10-2015, 11:35
You know, there are several players who defend age of sigmar eloquently and well thought out points and to them I say kudos. Truth be told I'm a little jealous they are finding such enjoyment out of the scenario. I wish I had!

On the other hand some of the responses are a little comical. It can't be denied.

Back to something vaguely resembling this topic. I can only hope the guy peddling aos at comicon was being sincere and was well informed by the company. I genuinely hope there are better things to come and that this is only the tip of the iceberg. But I doubt it.

I genuinely hope that games workshop learn a lesson from this and adapt before its too late. If nothing else, even fans of the game must surely accept the release was mishandled, and for haters of the game the situation is exasperated tenfold.
Learn from the mistake, adapt and recover.
Or plow on regardless and harm the customer base further. In my eyes those are the only two ways to proceed and I wont take any bets regarding which choice they make...

Bloodknight
28-10-2015, 11:39
They're preparing something massive for an upcoming release?

What do you think, that the Stormcasts and Khorne-Units were everything?

Sirius2.0
28-10-2015, 11:43
What do you think, that the Stormcasts and Khorne-Units were everything?

In all fairness they haven't really given the community much more to go on. All the non stormcast/Khone units are just repackaged old models.
There have been a few hints in the books but the only unit that springs to mind are the fireslayers.
As with all of gws recent mistakes, communication (or a lack thereof) is the fundamental cause.

TheLionReturns
28-10-2015, 11:44
I would be amazed if GW didn't have big things planned for AoS. I should imagine they had 2 years or so of stuff planned before release anyway. How easy it will be to alter those plans based on consumer reception I have no idea, if they even need to. Seems to me like the rep was just stating the obvious to be honest.

Deadhorse
28-10-2015, 11:45
If sales tanked as badly as I think, you can expect mostly re-packaged minis and the Hobbit treatment going forward.

Katastrophe
28-10-2015, 11:49
And the reality is that most of them do, but the culture of 'abuse the rules to the max' which WFB and 40k promoted does not like that because having to discuss potential common-sense solutions with your opponent is kind of hard to do when your principle aim is to grind him beneath your iron-shod boot.

I happen to think that GW trying to push their games in a more friendly direction rather than the rather heartless 'grow a pair' culture of warmahordes is a huge positive step, but it's going to be an incredibly difficult, perhaps even painful transition for people locked in the super-competitive mindset that their games formerly thrived on.

I totally disagree.

How about they make clear rules and when it appears there's interpretation issues they clarify how it works. That's really easy. And shows you care about your rules and ensures everyone is playing the same game. That's good for the game and players.

The reason clear rules make for better games is simple: neither player needs worry that the carpet will be pulled out from under them. Each player can make a list and be reasonably sure as to how it should work. They won't show up and be told, "that's not allowed or that's not what that item, unit, rule allows you to do". That's an important aspect of having a smooth game. Has nothing to do with being ultra competitive or tournament oriented.

We sit down to play hold em poker we all know how the game works and what to expect, even if no money is involved. Could you imagine sitting down to play and their be a dispute about whether a full house or flush was higher or some other silliness, but the discussion happens after you've decided to stay in the hand and rely on awaiting the river card.

Any game worth its salt minimizes interpretation and gives both players clear unambiguous rules so that everyone is on the same page.

Sirius2.0
28-10-2015, 11:52
If sales tanked as badly as I think, you can expect mostly re-packaged minis and the Hobbit treatment going forward.

Which is a shame, because If they addressed the issues and took in feedback (the majority of which appears to be fairly consistent) they could have a game system (with rules expansions to appease rank and file fans) that could really work for them.

I know it has been said before but I'm really surprised they didn't use the lotr/hobbit rules at as a base, with a fast release shortly after for rank and file rules like war of the ring, but hey... That's another rant for another time.

Bloodknight
28-10-2015, 11:55
All the non stormcast/Khone units are just repackaged old models.
Well, stuff needs to be produced, and 40K can't run dry either. Prepare to be surprised.

Denny
28-10-2015, 12:13
How about they make clear rules and when it appears there's interpretation issues they clarify how it works. That's really easy. And shows you care about your rules and ensures everyone is playing the same game. That's good for the game and players.

I think making clear rules is far harder than most players realize.
The rules for poker are clear because it is an incredibly simple game. There is no 'balance' issues because the game is based on being unbalanced and random; my hand sucks and yours is great. The flush/full house comparison is flawed as well; its not like anybody would argue whether WS10 was higher than WS8; the issues arise from interpretations of language, interactions between complex rules and people trying to bend the rules to support a supposition.

GW rules are closer to legislation. So it might be more prudent to ask: 'Are the laws governing our country clear and unambiguous so that everyone is on the same page?'.
No they are not. Sure the broad strokes are fine, but the detail leaves massive room to interpretation and can result in millions of pounds being spent trying to decide what a 'reasonable man' would do in particular circumstances, and the interaction of seemingly unrelated laws can lead to unexpected consequences. Plus you have a bunch of lawyers trying to spin and twist the rules to support their own clients/pockets, even if its at the expense of justice/the law as intended (there is a reason pedantic gamers are referred to as 'Rules Lawyers', and its not because of their fancy clothes).

If we cannot even write clear laws without ambiguity (which are given ridiculous degrees of scrutiny by very experienced and intelligent people and are infinitely more important than some tabletop game) why should our games fair any better?

Sirius2.0
28-10-2015, 12:39
Well, stuff needs to be produced, and 40K can't run dry either. Prepare to be surprised.

But it's been planned for 2+years.
I'll grant you I don't doubt things are either in the pipeline, or sitting in a warehouse somewhere, but that doesn't serve the agitated community.
I also agree that you can't let 40k dry up. The tau and Horus heresy releases look to be fantastic (though the Tau release looks pretty poorly priced) so good for them to reinvigorate that, after the damage aos has done.
But why repackage factions where they could create infinitely more good will and excitement by just releasing a couple of new models to give people a taste of the broader setting? It makes little sense and it's giving people reservations.

Zywus
28-10-2015, 13:40
Once the Heresy marines hit the shelves, people will care even less about AoS than they do now until some new models get released.

That 'bottom of the iceberg' need to surface pretty soon if there's gonna be any kind of fanbase left that cares even a bit about AoS.

Spiney Norman
28-10-2015, 13:41
I totally disagree.

How about they make clear rules and when it appears there's interpretation issues they clarify how it works. That's really easy. And shows you care about your rules and ensures everyone is playing the same game. That's good for the game and players.

The reason clear rules make for better games is simple: neither player needs worry that the carpet will be pulled out from under them. Each player can make a list and be reasonably sure as to how it should work. They won't show up and be told, "that's not allowed or that's not what that item, unit, rule allows you to do". That's an important aspect of having a smooth game. Has nothing to do with being ultra competitive or tournament oriented.
Fair enough, but that has literally never happened in any game of AoS I have played in or watched and if you are building your force on a contentious rule in an attempt to blindside your opponent and gain an advantage that way you deserve to have your rug pulled in my view. If there is something in your list you know is potentially contentious or ambiguous then you just bring it up at the start with your opponent so you can resolve the issue and either or both of you can make changes to your list if necessary.

Dosiere
28-10-2015, 13:54
And the reality is that most of them do, but the culture of 'abuse the rules to the max' which WFB and 40k promoted does not like that because having to discuss potential common-sense solutions with your opponent is kind of hard to do when your principle aim is to grind him beneath your iron-shod boot.

I happen to think that GW trying to push their games in a more friendly direction rather than the rather heartless 'grow a pair' culture of warmahordes is a huge positive step, but it's going to be an incredibly difficult, perhaps even painful transition for people locked in the super-competitive mindset that their games formerly thrived on.

What bunch of BS. I actually feel sorry for the WAAC attitude you approached 40K and WFB with, maybe you were part of the problem and its better that you have moved on? Honestly most people are nothing like what you are describing and just want common questions answered to legitimate rules questions. I've rarely experienced these "hyper competitive" games you keep referring to as the norm for those games, even in tournaments, which should make you think about which side of the table the problem was on.

Katastrophe
28-10-2015, 13:58
Fair enough, but that has literally never happened in any game of AoS I have played in or watched and if you are building your force on a contentious rule in an attempt to blindside your opponent and gain an advantage that way you deserve to have your rug pulled in my view. If there is something in your list you know is potentially contentious or ambiguous then you just bring it up at the start with your opponent so you can resolve the issue and either or both of you can make changes to your list if necessary.

Well AoS has very few rules so that's fair to say. I was speaking generally.

I'm not really referring to people taking advantage of a blind side as much as a legitimate difference in the reading and wording of a rule. Not long ago there were literally threads on every Warhammer board disagreeing whether wood elf "magic arrows" were unique. No one was trying to blindside opponents or take advantage of a loophole. There was simply no answer as to whether multiple units could purchase the same "magic arrow". If, where I play, one can take arrows multiple times my lists will be built around that dynamic. In fact, it may have been understood in my group that was the intent there was never any thought that one couldn't mult-buy arrows. Now I go elsewhere to play, take out my list in a pick up game and bam, I'm informed that's illegal because they read the rule meaning each was unique. Of course this doesn't come out until we are actually playing.

Clear rules and FAQs actually prevent these types of situations. Just like using universal rules (as opposed to ad hoc special rules for every unit) makes it easy to determine how something should work. The cleaner the rules, the easier it is for people to play a stranger and be playing the same game.

GWs failure to take their games seriously opens the doors for other companies that do. Being able to have a casual social game is made easier if there are fewer things to disagree on or try to anticipate what might be a problem prior to it actually occurring.

HelloKitty
28-10-2015, 14:03
What bunch of BS. I actually feel sorry for the WAAC attitude you approached 40K and WFB with, maybe you were part of the problem and its better that you have moved on? Honestly most people are nothing like what you are describing and just want common questions answered to legitimate rules questions. I've rarely experienced these "hyper competitive" games you keep referring to as the norm for those games, even in tournaments, which should make you think about which side of the table the problem was on.

Everyone has different experiences. One of my last tournaments that I ever attended had a table flipped. Hyper competitive gamers in my area were common for many years (they still are, but they moved away from GW games starting about five years ago with the death of 7th edition WHFB) and they even had a weekly meetup where they'd get together as a group of about a dozen of them to practice arguing rules.

Yes they legitimately had rules arguing sessions where they'd argue a rule one way then the opposite, because arguing rules and being able to win rules arguments was seen as a legitimate tournament skill.

I used to travel to the old GW Grand Tournaments with a few of our group and they were fun, and a lot of guys were nice, but on average 2 out of the six games were against someone like the above and were not pleasant either.

Clearer rules do make things better. That doesn't stop guys like the above from trying to argue against a rule if it serves their purpose even if its clear (they will try anyway) but typically it makes officiating those games much easier.

GW approaches games from a fun social direction, in a world whose tabletop market often approaches games as a professional sport. As such, there has always been friction.

Katastrophe
28-10-2015, 14:06
I think making clear rules is far harder than most players realize.
The rules for poker are clear because it is an incredibly simple game. There is no 'balance' issues because the game is based on being unbalanced and random; my hand sucks and yours is great. The flush/full house comparison is flawed as well; its not like anybody would argue whether WS10 was higher than WS8; the issues arise from interpretations of language, interactions between complex rules and people trying to bend the rules to support a supposition.

GW rules are closer to legislation. So it might be more prudent to ask: 'Are the laws governing our country clear and unambiguous so that everyone is on the same page?'.
No they are not. Sure the broad strokes are fine, but the detail leaves massive room to interpretation and can result in millions of pounds being spent trying to decide what a 'reasonable man' would do in particular circumstances, and the interaction of seemingly unrelated laws can lead to unexpected consequences. Plus you have a bunch of lawyers trying to spin and twist the rules to support their own clients/pockets, even if its at the expense of justice/the law as intended (there is a reason pedantic gamers are referred to as 'Rules Lawyers', and its not because of their fancy clothes).

If we cannot even write clear laws without ambiguity (which are given ridiculous degrees of scrutiny by very experienced and intelligent people and are infinitely more important than some tabletop game) why should our games fair any better?

I think you're over complicating. Writing rules for a war game from scratch is harder than revising an existing game. Balance is very difficult in the method GW uses because they don't play test well and they don't develop all the armies at the same time. Those are self imposed issues. I'm not saying these things are easy but it's not near impossible as some people claim.

FAQs and Erratas are possible if you actually look at the game played in the wild and see what players are doing and questioning. Then designers sit down and provide an answer. Other games do it because they care about their rules. GWs effort in this area is minimal and that is their problem.

Deadhorse
28-10-2015, 14:39
Kitty, you have some really strange characters in your area. Every time you describe them, I go "weird, weird people".

I've seen hardcore competitive players - indeed, in the first WFB event I ever attended, in the first battle, the "veteran" WAAC player facing me cheated me on both rules and on counting points.

I have never seen anyone practice arguing rules, and a club devoted to this pursuit seems ludicrous unless it was some kind of joke.

HelloKitty
28-10-2015, 14:41
Kitty, you have some really strange characters in your area. Every time you describe them, I go "weird, weird people".

I've seen hardcore competitive players - indeed, in the first WFB event I ever attended, in the first battle, the "veteran" WAAC player facing me cheated me on both rules and on counting points.

I have never seen anyone practice arguing rules, and a club devoted to this pursuit seems ludicrous unless it was some kind of joke.

A lot of these people were encountered at the regional, not local, level.

The rules argument team was actually first discussed on a forum or yahoogroups back when that was a thing, thats where they picked up the idea to do it. It was from what I understand not so uncommon at that level.

Niall78
28-10-2015, 15:10
The rules argument team was actually first discussed on a forum or yahoogroups back when that was a thing, thats where they picked up the idea to do it. It was from what I understand not so uncommon at that level.

Were they part of the same group that stopped every gamer in a geographical area of six gaming stores from playing scenario games or campaigns for years?

I can imagine anyone who meets up to argue about rules would be unhinged enough to bully a whole area for a decade or more.

Denny
28-10-2015, 15:16
I think you're over complicating. Writing rules for a war game from scratch is harder than revising an existing game. Balance is very difficult in the method GW uses because they don't play test well and they don't develop all the armies at the same time. Those are self imposed issues. I'm not saying these things are easy but it's not near impossible as some people claim.

I would not say impossible, but I stand by it being really really hard.

In some ways revising an existing game is harder than making a new game (assuming its a proper revision and not some minor tweaking), because you have to take account of previous rules/army books etc (I'm sure we can all think of examples where a change to the core rules has massively buffed/neutered an old army book, or made a previously awesome army list suddenly suck). You could theoretically develop all the armies at the same time, but I don't think that would financially feasible; you need to release products in a staggered fashion to keep the money coming in, and I don't think GW or anyone else has the resources to complete a full development cycle without releasing updates.

The best solution (which is ironically something AoS is doing right) is to have the updates on a unit by unit basis and have electronic rules online. That way you can release throughout the year and update as required. I'm not a AoS fan (or anti for that matter; I'm a filthy neutral), but I think this at least is a step in the right direction.


FAQs and Erratas are possible if you actually look at the game played in the wild and see what players are doing and questioning. Then designers sit down and provide an answer. Other games do it because they care about their rules. GWs effort in this area is minimal and that is their problem.

GW used to do FAQs in White Dwarf. However they abandoned this with the reasoning that not everyone would have access to them, which could create inconstancies (and made old FAQs hard to track down).
I think this was reasonable at the time, but in the information age it doesn't make much sense. I have no idea why the online FAQs have stopped; I can only think it has something to do with the reluctance to engage with the online community.

Many of GW problems seem to hang on them being a little behind the times which, as a bluff old fellow who started playing before this internet-thing took off, I can understand. They need to catch up quickly though, or they are going to become increasingly archaic.

Shardik the Bear
28-10-2015, 15:34
Many of GW problems seem to hang on them being a little behind the times which, as a bluff old fellow who started playing before this internet-thing took off, I can understand. They need to catch up quickly though, or they are going to become increasingly archaic.

This feeds into their behaving as if they're still an industry dominating near monopoly when that hasn't been the case for half a decade or so.

Katastrophe
28-10-2015, 17:10
I would not say impossible, but I stand by it being really really hard.

In some ways revising an existing game is harder than making a new game (assuming its a proper revision and not some minor tweaking), because you have to take account of previous rules/army books etc (I'm sure we can all think of examples where a change to the core rules has massively buffed/neutered an old army book, or made a previously awesome army list suddenly suck). You could theoretically develop all the armies at the same time, but I don't think that would financially feasible; you need to release products in a staggered fashion to keep the money coming in, and I don't think GW or anyone else has the resources to complete a full development cycle without releasing updates.

That is still a fault of how they release their rules and books. Though I am not a WarmaHordes fan, I will say PP appears to do one thing right, updates across they board.

Were I writing a game, I would take a much different approach, which is sort of a cross between AoS and WarmaHordes rules releases.

1) I would release a General Rule Book with all the rules for playing the game and general universal special rules
2) I would release a Fluff Book (world related) and related to a particular world event which every army is currently fighting in even in different theaters and tied to that would be
3) The Armies of Whatever Book and in there would be lists for all the Armies balanced against one another and any special rules related to the particular armies, units and theaters of combat.
4) Thereafter I would release additional units for each army in a semi annual update pack that would maybe update the timeline slightly, give each army a couple of new units they are introducing into the theater of combat and release models for those units and since I am developing all this simultaneously, I can rebalance the armies by updating the points costs across the board including introduction of new units (based on new synergies rather than a need to sell models that were low sellers before).

Every couple of years rinse and repeat this pattern. Change the Theater of War in 2nd Ed., change the efficacy of universal rules, introduce general rules changes, repoint all the basic and previously introduced units.

Take the opportunity through your game to tell a grand story,

Overtninja
28-10-2015, 17:49
I think GW's problem is that they assume that their in-house staff are representative of their customer base at large - at least in that they assume that people will just make up their own rules for how to play the game based on what they think would be fun. This is very clearly how GW writes all of it's games, fantasy or 40k. However, clearly many people want to play a game that is much more bound by a rules system, with much more definite rulings and tighter arbitration.

Anyway, it's absurd to think they aren't going to expand the rules - they literally write rules for fun, to add more enjoyment to the game. That their customers are extremely attached to using these 'official' rules instead of making their own, as GW clearly does regularly, is a major disconnect between the company and it's customer base. GW doesn't produce these things because they figure people are doing it themselves, because to GW it's part of the fun of the hobby and gives you ownership and control of your own game system. Some people clearly don't want that, they want regular, tight official rules, official faqs, tournament rules for competitive play, and the like. This isn't wrong, but it's clear that what GW is prepared to offer is not what many people are looking for.

Also, let's not forget that they've also got 40k to release, with it's own new models, entire new ranges, and the related packaging, design, etc. They're releasing 30k too, so it's not like they've not got an entire pipeline of things lined up. Their entire production requires forward planning, and we know they like to keep things under wraps and not leak things - because other model companies do in fact like to make cheaper alternatives to their ranges and cut into their profits.

So yeah, thinking that GW has no plan for AoS is silly. They've clearly got many releases down the pipes, but they are releasing things slowly after the initial new run to, you know, give people time to actually enjoy the hobby aspect of the game - painting, modeling, creating terrain, cooking up new scenarios, playing through the multiple campaign books they've released, etc etc. Declaring otherwise just reveals your spite. It would take a minimum of months of prep for things like a reboxing, let alone the prep necessary for entire model range releases.

There's also the issue with the fact that even though GW is reaching out to the community to gauge what people think about it, and apparently that's a stupid thing for them to do and is being met with contempt. This is a childish and petty response, and will only reinforce GW's opinion that the community isn't worth the trouble to engage in directly. If a dog bites at your hand whenever you try to interact with it, you'll keep your hands away, and probably drop it's food into it's bowl from a farther distance.

Niall78
28-10-2015, 17:55
There's also the issue with the fact that even though GW is reaching out to the community to gauge what people think about it, and apparently that's a stupid thing for them to do and is being met with contempt.

Post up a link to where GW is engaging with the community. I want to participate. This is a massive - but welcome - turnaround from GW if true.

Spiney Norman
28-10-2015, 18:07
Post up a link to where GW is engaging with the community. I want to participate. This is a massive - but welcome - turnaround from GW if true.

This whole thread is about GW sending a rep to uk comic con to interact with the community, surely you can't have missed that.

Besides which, I can't help but thing that if GW did start engaging with the community online and got the kind of posts we've been getting on Warseer for the past two months they'd give up the whole thing immediately as a lost cause (which is pretty much why the old GW forums got close down), and I can't say I would disagree with them. The online gaming community at large is now so toxic towards GW that any kind of dialogue would be a total waste of time, and while its fair to say GW is significantly to blame for most of that, the fact remains that giving people an extra place to post their long, vitriolic, unreasonable rants will not actually help GW do any better.

Comrade Penguin
28-10-2015, 18:16
I agree that it would be foolish for GW to join an existing online forum to solicit suggestions since the would only receive angry responses.

But this is not the only way they could engage the community. Sending representatives to local tournaments and offering prize support would be seen very favorably by all players. They could also have play test betas and encourage players to email suggestions for new rules/units. GW could bring back the Outrider program to compete with Privateer's pressgangers. There are so many ways that GW could improve their relationship with their customers, but for some reason they refuse to do anything.

Katastrophe
28-10-2015, 18:22
This whole thread is about GW sending a rep to uk comic con to interact with the community, surely you can't have missed that.

Besides which, I can't help but thing that if GW did start engaging with the community online and got the kind of posts we've been getting on Warseer for the past two months they'd give up the whole thing immediately as a lost cause (which is pretty much why the old GW forums got close down), and I can't say I would disagree with them. The online gaming community at large is now so toxic towards GW that any kind of dialogue would be a total waste of time, and while its fair to say GW is significantly to blame for most of that, the fact remains that giving people an extra place to post their long, vitriolic, unreasonable rants will not actually help GW do any better.

Which is why it is hard to say I'm sorry at times. But, some times you have to take a lot of **** from the person you are apologizing to in order to regain their trust and so that they believe that you are really sorry for the past behavior. Should they really expect being welcomed with open arms after pissing folks off to no end? Taking the walk of shame and showing some penance would go a long way. Refusing to do so just makes it more and more difficult to ever get back in.


There's also the issue with the fact that even though GW is reaching out to the community to gauge what people think about it, and apparently that's a stupid thing for them to do and is being met with contempt. This is a childish and petty response, and will only reinforce GW's opinion that the community isn't worth the trouble to engage in directly. If a dog bites at your hand whenever you try to interact with it, you'll keep your hands away, and probably drop it's food into it's bowl from a farther distance.

But when you have kicked the dog and beat it, if you ever want to be able to pet it in the future, changing your behavior may be a first step.

Niall78
28-10-2015, 18:36
This whole thread is about GW sending a rep to uk comic con to interact with the community, surely you can't have missed that.

Besides which, I can't help but thing that if GW did start engaging with the community online and got the kind of posts we've been getting on Warseer for the past two months they'd give up the whole thing immediately as a lost cause (which is pretty much why the old GW forums got close down), and I can't say I would disagree with them. The online gaming community at large is now so toxic towards GW that any kind of dialogue would be a total waste of time, and while its fair to say GW is significantly to blame for most of that, the fact remains that giving people an extra place to post their long, vitriolic, unreasonable rants will not actually help GW do any better.

"They sent a representative to a comic convention" - now counts as interaction with the fan base?

Then a load of excuses why they don't actually interact with the customer base. Toxic fans. It's amazing all the other companies who don't have such toxicity problems. GW fans blame the customers again for GWs complete failure to engage in modern communications.

Spiney Norman
28-10-2015, 18:59
"They sent a representative to a comic convention" - now counts as interaction with the fan base?

Unless he didn't speak to anyone it would seem to fulfill the definition, yes, and in many ways it's the best way for them to do it, people who will be absolutely vile from behind the protection and anonymity of their keyboard a likely to be far more civil in a face-to-face encounter.


Then a load of excuses why they don't actually interact with the customer base. Toxic fans. It's amazing all the other companies who don't have such toxicity problems. GW fans blame the customers again for GWs complete failure to engage in modern communications.

Not excuses, just an observation, clearly the amount of bad feeling against GW is, at least partly, their fault, but if GW opened an online forum to engage with their customers now, nothing constructive would come of it because the people that actually wanted to engage in constructive discussion about their games would get drowned out by the people who just wanted to drown the place in hateful ranting - rather like our warhammer General forum.

At the end of the day the reason GW closed down their forums in the first place was because the majority of users were just moaning and didn't want to say anything helpful/constructive, and that was years ago. I think they badly misjudged how much worse a wall of silence would make the situation. I think GW needs to do a lot of work to generate good will among its customers before they even think about opening themselves up for online responses from the fans, it's difficult to have a conversation with someone who just wants to punch you in the face repeatedly. Advanced previews of their products would be a start, but the chapterhouse case taught them that if you put your ideas out there before the product is ready, someone, somewhere will steal your idea.

Kahadras
28-10-2015, 19:01
Anyway, it's absurd to think they aren't going to expand the rules - they literally write rules for fun, to add more enjoyment to the game. That their customers are extremely attached to using these 'official' rules instead of making their own, as GW clearly does regularly, is a major disconnect between the company and it's customer base. GW doesn't produce these things because they figure people are doing it themselves, because to GW it's part of the fun of the hobby and gives you ownership and control of your own game system. Some people clearly don't want that, they want regular, tight official rules, official faqs, tournament rules for competitive play, and the like. This isn't wrong, but it's clear that what GW is prepared to offer is not what many people are looking for.

The problem is that GW really has never come out and said 'we just write rules for a bit of fun and to add enjoyment to the game'. Especialy considering that they are then prepared to charge top dollar for the fact that they've given you 'ownership and control of the game'. Either GW needs to say 'we are a minatures company and the game are just a bit of fun on the side' or they need to say 'we are a games company and the rules are an important part of that'. If the rules are a 'bit of fun' then they need to stop charging 45 for the rulebook, 45 for a battleplan book and 35 for an army book.

Spiney Norman
28-10-2015, 19:07
The problem is that GW really has never come out and said 'we just write rules for a bit of fun and to add enjoyment to the game'. Especialy considering that they are then prepared to charge top dollar for the fact that they've given you 'ownership and control of the game'. Either GW needs to say 'we are a minatures company and the game are just a bit of fun on the side' or they need to say 'we are a games company and the rules are an important part of that'. If the rules are a 'bit of fun' then they need to stop charging 45 for the rulebook, 45 for a battleplan book and 35 for an army book.

You know the rule book is free right?

The books are mostly just there for the fluff, all the battle plans, batallions and time of war rules are available for a nominal fee through the AoS app. You can download the game content from any given book by purchasing a 'battle pack' through the AoS app which typically costs around 25% of the price of the full book.

Presently I've bought nothing but models for AoS, we have a couple of guys at our club who are really into the fluff and have the books so if I want to access the game-content they contain I can do that through them.

I think my favourite thing about AoS is that all my money goes on models rather than having to buy expensive books just to play the game.

Niall78
28-10-2015, 19:10
Unless he didn't speak to anyone it would seem to fulfill the definition, yes, and in many ways it's the best way for them to do it, people who will be absolutely vile from behind the protection and anonymity of their keyboard a likely to be far more civil in a face-to-face encounter.



Not excuses, just an observation, clearly the amount of bad feeling against GW is, at least partly, their fault, but if GW opened an online forum to engage with their customers now, nothing constructive would come of it because the people that actually wanted to engage in constructive discussion about their games would get drowned out by the people who just wanted to drown the place in hateful ranting - rather like our warhammer General forum.

At the end of the day the reason GW closed down their forums in the first place was because the majority of users were just moaning and didn't want to say anything helpful/constructive, and that was years ago. I think they badly misjudged how much worse a wall of silence would make the situation. I think GW needs to do a lot of work to generate good will among its customers before they even think about opening themselves up for online responses from the fans, it's difficult to have a conversation with someone who just wants to punch you in the face repeatedly. Advanced previews of their products would be a start, but the chapterhouse case taught them that if you put your ideas out there before the product is ready, someone, somewhere will steal your idea.

Another long rant that blames the customers for GW being twenty years behind modern technological advancements.

You don't know why GW don't engage with their customers. They might just be too cheap to fund and staff a forum. You've constructed a whole fantasy reason - with zero proof - from your head to explain GWs unbelievable business error of not keeping up with modern IT.

Do you think sending a staff member to propagandize at a comic convention rivals other companies efforts for fan engagement and interaction?

Sephillion
28-10-2015, 19:12
The problem is that GW really has never come out and said 'we just write rules for a bit of fun and to add enjoyment to the game'. Especialy considering that they are then prepared to charge top dollar for the fact that they've given you 'ownership and control of the game'. Either GW needs to say 'we are a minatures company and the game are just a bit of fun on the side' or they need to say 'we are a games company and the rules are an important part of that'. If the rules are a 'bit of fun' then they need to stop charging 45 for the rulebook, 45 for a battleplan book and 35 for an army book.

…well, at least AoS rules are free.

Kahadras
28-10-2015, 19:32
…well, at least AoS rules are free.

Shame the 40K rules aren't free. IMHO GW should be charging an absoulte minimum for any support material for AoS (rules, battle plans etc) because I can guarantee that's how much time went into playtesting it.

daveNYC
28-10-2015, 19:34
Unless he didn't speak to anyone it would seem to fulfill the definition, yes, and in many ways it's the best way for them to do it, people who will be absolutely vile from behind the protection and anonymity of their keyboard a likely to be far more civil in a face-to-face encounter.

When people say 'interaction with' I think what they really mean is 'willing to accept feedback from'. Sending a rep to talk up AoS isn't really doing that.

GW should just open up an online forum like every other game company has. Sure the signal to noise ratio will be crap initially, and might not even improve much from there, but other companies manage to have forums and deal with the resulting mess.

I think the problem is that GW just doesn't seem that interested in writing good rules, and therefore isn't interested in dealing with the forum rage that would result when they release the next Skyhammer type formation rules, everyone screams how overpowered it is, and no change to the rules results. A forum is great if you're willing to listen to what is said there (and yes, that means dealing with the usual loveliness that results when you combine passionate feelings with internet anonymity) and make adjustments to your product when it seems appropriate.

Sephillion
28-10-2015, 19:37
Shame the 40K rules aren't free. IMHO GW should be charging an absoulte minimum for any support material for AoS (rules, battle plans etc) because I can guarantee that's how much time went into playtesting it.

Yes, especially at the pace they are releasing them.

Kahadras
28-10-2015, 19:42
I think the problem is that GW just doesn't seem that interested in writing good rules, and therefore isn't interested in dealing with the forum rage that would result when they release the next Skyhammer type formation rules, everyone screams how overpowered it is, and no change to the rules results.

They aren't interested in writing good rules at the moment. The next 'Skyhammer' formation will be OP just as they intended it to be (how else are they going to tempt people into pumping another ton of money into the hobby). I think GW are probably well aware that their business practices aren't winning them many fans and aren't interested in opening a forum so people can tell them so.

Spiney Norman
28-10-2015, 19:43
Another long rant that blames the customers for GW being twenty years behind modern technological advancements.

You don't know why GW don't engage with their customers. They might just be too cheap to fund and staff a forum. You've constructed a whole fantasy reason - with zero proof - from your head to explain GWs unbelievable business error of not keeping up with modern IT.

I know why the GW forums were shut down because I was a member there, your interpretation of events is at least as speculative as mine. And it'd be great if you could stop caracturing and misrepresenting my posts because I explicitly said serval times that GW is at least partly to blame for the current state of their relationship with the community. It's also fair to say it's not GWs customers that are the problem, it people who are customers and yet still feel entitled to slag off everything with the GW label from the safety of their keyboard. I mean have you personally bought any AoS products?


Do you think sending a staff member to propagandize at a comic convention rivals other companies efforts for fan engagement and interaction?

Probably not, though I confess to being somewhat in ignorance of other companies level of community engagement, I don't really need to personally engage with Mantic until they release a product I actually want to spend money on for example.

Bloodknight
28-10-2015, 21:55
Another long rant that blames the customers

As someone who ran a Mekwars server you should know that gamers in general often are terrible and fickle customers who're not even content with stuff they get for free because there's always one thing they don't like about it (usually with some kind of agenda behind it). Then 5% of the forum population tries to be louder than the other 95% to get what they want. And the terrible part is that those 5% are also a herd of cats and want entirely different things, and oddly, not even what they tell you they want (I once implemented a rule that people desperately told me they wanted, exactly how they spelled it out, although I knew it was going to be bad in the big picture. Turns out once they found out that their idea wasn't so great, they went at me because I implemented it, no self-reflection at all...go figure).

Seriously, I said it before from my own experience as a server admin, a gamer, a moderator on one of the biggest German tabletop-related forums: forums are useless to get feedback from in the gaming scene beyond a certain amount of traffic, since the loudmouths drown out the rest in garbage. You couldn't pay me enough to search through all that drivel to get to the tasty nut inside day by day, particularly if most of it basically just serves to insult your work, your colleagues' work and your person. :) I moderate because I like giving something to the community, but if I had to do it, I'd be out of the room before a dropped pen would hit the ground.

And yes, I'm a gamer, too, and I can be difficult. I've been called a rules lawyer before and I do enjoy a bit of rules lawyering indeed.
Anyway, it's my personal opinion on the topic.

Whirlwind
28-10-2015, 22:26
I agree that it would be foolish for GW to join an existing online forum to solicit suggestions since the would only receive angry responses.

I think this may be already happening, just not so blatently obvious as saying "Hi I'm from GW" as as you have stated they would just be bombarded.

As for the sales speak; I work on the principle that I will see it to believe it. If it is true my concern would be that it would be too late to pull back those that have left. Also I thought the rumour was that AoS was going to be beginner level, 40k medium and HH advanced level games? Doesn't the rumour of an expansion fly in the face of this?

daveNYC
28-10-2015, 22:27
Probably not, though I confess to being somewhat in ignorance of other companies level of community engagement, I don't really need to personally engage with Mantic until they release a product I actually want to spend money on for example.

Just off their website, they've got Twitter, Facebook, a Blog, Forums, a Podcast and something on Youtube. Basically they've gone whole hog on all the major social media and communication channels out there. Noteworthy item: The sticky on the KoW - Rules Discussion section is 'FAQ's/Errata - Official' (last update being 9/29). Infinity is similar (no Podcast or Blog, though they update stories on their main page enough for that to probably count as a blog). Malifaux has less stuff, though they have a forum and are theoretically working on video and stuff.

Long story short, three competitors of GW are very much active in setting up online communication between themselves and their customers. GW isn't. My guess is because GW still thinks they're the 800 pound gorilla, and therefore they don't need to worry about what their customers think, because they don't think their customers have anywhere else to go.

logan054
28-10-2015, 22:31
In fairness it's much easier for other companies to engage with customers online. All they need is the tagline "we aren't Gw" because of pigs ear Gw have made of it I'm the past.

Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalk

mbh1127
28-10-2015, 22:42
So if GW did bring out an expanded set of rules to AoS based on consumer feedback why would that actually be a bad thing? It seems to me that it would be a brilliant thing.

I mean isn't that what people praise companies like Mantic, PP and even Forgeorld for all the time? It's like even when GW do something we want them to do certain people can find a way to criticise them for doing it.

It wouldn't be anything for me

I'm done buying new GW products. No ill will toward the company but I'm done with them.

theunwantedbeing
28-10-2015, 22:46
Long story short, three competitors of GW are very much active in setting up online communication between themselves and their customers. GW isn't. My guess is because GW still thinks they're the 800 pound gorilla, and therefore they don't need to worry about what their customers think, because they don't think their customers have anywhere else to go.

GW has stores all over the country with which to engage it's customers and does so on a daily basis.
It doesn't need that online presence that keeps other companies afloat.

logan054
28-10-2015, 22:48
GW has stores all over the country with which to engage it's customers and does so on a daily basis.
It doesn't need that online presence that keeps other companies afloat.
They really aren't for engaging with people. Recruiting the non-existent newbie with more money than sense, then, they have plenty of stores for that.

Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalk

Spiney Norman
28-10-2015, 22:52
GW has stores all over the country with which to engage it's customers and does so on a daily basis.
It doesn't need that online presence that keeps other companies afloat.

That's an interesting point, although even I am sceptical that customer feedback received at the store-manager level ever makes its way back to the design team, maybe I'm being unfair in that assumption. Personal engagement definitely has a big advantage over virtual engagement for a number of reasons, the foremost being the anonymity issue, people take absolutely no responsibility for the way in which they express their opinions online, it's much harder to verbally flay someone alive when you are actually standing in front of them.

Voss
28-10-2015, 23:05
GW has stores all over the country with which to engage it's customers and does so on a daily basis.
It doesn't need that online presence that keeps other companies afloat.

... taking money from a few stragglers that wander in doesn't constitute engagement.
GW shop cashiers can't talk about the product lines, releases, plans, or do much of anything beyond ask 'Do you want paints with that?'


@Spiney- there is literally no point in lambasting cashiers over company decisions. Nor praising them, really. Again, without any way to discuss the product lines beyond 'Buy this box now!' there is no real engagement happening in a GW shop.

Spiney Norman
28-10-2015, 23:11
... taking money from a few stragglers that wander in doesn't constitute engagement.
GW shop cashiers can't talk about the product lines, releases, plans, or do much of anything beyond ask 'Do you want paints with that?'


@Spiney- there is literally no point in lambasting cashiers over company decisions. Nor praising them, really. Again, without any way to discuss the product lines beyond 'Buy this box now!' there is no real engagement happening in a GW shop.

I guess that depends whether you think that 'community engagement' consists of anything other than showing you pictures of unreleased upcoming models. GW staff do a good job of promoting the hobby and putting a good face on the company in my experience. Yes GW's culture of secrecy is annoying, but you can't tell me you're not used to it by now. I'd wager GW staff have taken plenty of flak over the AoS switch, some of that has got to have made its way up the chain of command one way or another.

jet_palero
28-10-2015, 23:34
GW has stores all over the country with which to engage it's customers and does so on a daily basis.
It doesn't need that online presence that keeps other companies afloat.

Maybe in jolly old England, but they're pretty rare in the United States. For a company who spends so much money on their online storefront, you'd think they'd care a little more about their online reputation and player interaction. Most of my life I was several hours from the nearest GW. I got my early plastic crack fix from a store called Book & Game, and the owner there didn't play the games at all. Most of what I knew of GW started coming from the internet in the mid 90s. These days the facebook pages for individual stores are something, but they're really too inconsistent and entirely dependent on the effectiveness of the local store employee. The last place I lived that had a local store had a new employee every 4 months for several years. Not good.

But the fact they sent anyone at all to Comic Con is a good sign. Sure they might be doing a poor job of it, but at least they're trying, which is good news.

theunwantedbeing
28-10-2015, 23:38
That's an interesting point, although even I am sceptical that customer feedback received at the store-manager level ever makes its way back to the design team, maybe I'm being unfair in that assumption.

It's probably a fair assumption.
That being said, I'm sure the design team would be swamped if every single query or suggestion made it's way to them.

Customer engagement is a lot more than just feedback though.
GW stores provide a place to game, paint and assemble your models as well as meet and introduce other players which is all part of customer engagement even if it's not having an effect on the game itself or the models being produced.

Shipmonkey
29-10-2015, 01:58
Just off their website, they've got Twitter, Facebook, a Blog, Forums, a Podcast and something on Youtube. Basically they've gone whole hog on all the major social media and communication channels out there. Noteworthy item: The sticky on the KoW - Rules Discussion section is 'FAQ's/Errata - Official' (last update being 9/29). Infinity is similar (no Podcast or Blog, though they update stories on their main page enough for that to probably count as a blog). Malifaux has less stuff, though they have a forum and are theoretically working on video and stuff.

Long story short, three competitors of GW are very much active in setting up online communication between themselves and their customers. GW isn't. My guess is because GW still thinks they're the 800 pound gorilla, and therefore they don't need to worry about what their customers think, because they don't think their customers have anywhere else to go.


Just saying, but maybe if the Mantic team spend less time on social media, they could use all that extra time to design some decent looking miniatures.

jet_palero
29-10-2015, 06:37
Just saying, but maybe if the Mantic team spend less time on social media, they could use all that extra time to design some decent looking miniatures.

That's your subjective opinion and you're welcome to it. My opinion is that you're wrong and their miniatures are fine however. Some of them are quite nice.

Spiney Norman
29-10-2015, 07:10
Just saying, but maybe if the Mantic team spend less time on social media, they could use all that extra time to design some decent looking miniatures.

I don't think time is the issue (at least I would hope Mantic's sculpting team is not also responsible for customer relations), Mantic planted their flag in gamer castle so they hire talented game developers and low-ranking mooks to sculpt the models, GW does things precisely the opposite way round because as people often parrot, they are primarily about making great models.

babylonia
29-10-2015, 07:33
I don't think time is the issue (at least I would hope Mantic's sculpting team is not also responsible for customer relations), Mantic planted their flag in gamer castle so they hire talented game developers and low-ranking mooks to sculpt the models, GW does things precisely the opposite way round because as people often parrot, they are primarily about making great models.

'Low ranking Mooks?' Do you know this to be true or is this your opinion?

williamsond
29-10-2015, 07:46
I'm not sure that anything that has come out of mantic figure wise (for the last few years at least) can be considered "sculpted by low-ranking mooks" to be honest while the look of mantic stuff is very different from GW it's no better or worse.

The minis people keep refering to when they say mantics minis are rubbish are some of the early KoW minis that I'll admit are not great, but that stuff is from the very early days of mantics range, the stuff were getting now is very nice to call it rubbish is taring everything with the same brush.

Spiney Norman
29-10-2015, 08:00
'Low ranking Mooks?' Do you know this to be true or is this your opinion?

No I was exaggerating, but the talent gap between the people sculpting for GW and those sculpting for Mantic is pretty huge, it's all a question of the company's priorities. The only models from Mantic I ever purchased was a zombie horde for the end times games we were playing, and while I consider them pretty much the best models that have ever come out of Mantic, they're still not remotely in the same arena as the models GW has been making for AoS.

Mantic produces cheap plastic gaming tokens for people who want cheap plastic gaming tokens, GW produces high quality miniatures that people will pay more money for, the companies do different things.

williamsond
29-10-2015, 08:32
This is where we will have to respectfully disagree, while GW makes nice models (personnally I'm not taken on the overly CAD feel of alot of their newer stuff) much of the newer Mantic stuff is as good as alot of GW's current range as far as im concered the new undead trolls are great for instance. But minis are about personal taste and that is subjective I suppose.

Ronin[XiC]
29-10-2015, 11:54
Yeah because just as an example Remy Tremblay is such a mook sculptor... http://remytremblay-sculpture.blogspot.de/

Urgat
29-10-2015, 12:06
That's your subjective opinion and you're welcome to it. My opinion is that you're wrong and their miniatures are fine however. Some of them are quite nice.

You're defending their minis, and the best you can say is "some are quite nice"? That's some enthusiasm there buddy :p

daveNYC
29-10-2015, 13:44
GW has stores all over the country with which to engage it's customers and does so on a daily basis.
It doesn't need that online presence that keeps other companies afloat.

Depends on your definition of 'all over' and 'country'. There's no longer a GW store in NYC for instance. Not to mention the huge difference between an online presence that is available 24/7 from virtually (see what I did there?) anywhere, and a store that you have to physically go to.

That's not even getting into what others have mentioned concerning exactly how much actual useful interaction the GW staff can do, considering that they're nearly as much in the dark as the customers and might not have the ability to communicate customer concerns up the food chain.

Voss
29-10-2015, 14:40
I guess that depends whether you think that 'community engagement' consists of anything other than showing you pictures of unreleased upcoming models. GW staff do a good job of promoting the hobby and putting a good face on the company in my experience. Yes GW's culture of secrecy is annoying, but you can't tell me you're not used to it by now. I'd wager GW staff have taken plenty of flak over the AoS switch, some of that has got to have made its way up the chain of command one way or another.

I wasn't even thinking of that. I was thinking of GW stores that I've seen in the last decade or so, where there is barely room for all the product lines and a demo table, and just the one cashier to take money and try to up sell. There certainly isn't room for gaming, painting, assembly or any particular level of advice or engagement.

I don't, however, think of it as a culture of secrecy. It's a product of the culture of incompetence, and a failure of marketing.

Niall78
29-10-2015, 14:45
I wasn't even thinking of that. I was thinking of GW stores that I've seen in the last decade or so, where there is barely room for all the product lines and a demo table, and just the one cashier to take money and try to up sell. There certainly isn't room for gaming, painting, assembly or any particular level of advice or engagement.

I don't, however, think of it as a culture of secrecy. It's a product of the culture of incompetence, and a failure of marketing.

It's the pushy sales attempts I find repugnant in GW shops - so much I haven't visited one in quite some time.

I wonder are these pushy sales attempts counted as engagement with the player-base by some posters here?

I think of it as a culture of incompetence as well. Any other major company that had failed to engage with modern information technology would be laughed at. Any niche company that didn't engage in IT is doubly mad - it is the premier way of getting a dispersed niche fan base together. That some here defend such lack of engagement as a - "fault of the fans" - is pretty lame. It's actually victim blaming - customers get blamed for having to put up with 1980's style customer engagement in 2015.

Some here have advised others to send GW a letter if they want rules clarified - just like I did in 1984 when there were rules questions amongst my first playing group as we got into WFB. In GW at least part of the 80's survive - its customer service/engagement department. Although at least back then the letter got answered.

nanogasn
29-10-2015, 14:48
I hope they have new rules planned. It is possible they released a shell and would evolve it based on community feedback. Though from what I'm hearing about GW, they aren't good listeners of the community? I'm new to the game, and the brand.

I will say this. I'm a casual player. I was attracted to AoS because it was marketed as a casual game. And it does feel like it in many respects. But it hurts in several key areas:

First. No comp system. I think GW was trying to go for a more casual approach by not having points, but from my perspective this runs counter. I don't have the breadth of knowledge of all the units to know what my opponent is fielding, or frankly, what I'm fielding. I need a comp system to guide my decisions. I don't want to be a dick. I want to go into a game knowing I'm putting in a fair army. And I want to ensure I know my opponent is doing the same before I waste my time on a game only to find out after the fact that his units were completely over the top. I hear GW might create limits on monsters and heroes, etc.. which imo will not work by itself. You also need a numeric indicator of power. It doesn't matter if it is exactly balanced - point systems are for the casual. If you know the game, you create house rules on what is allowed - points become a reference at most. Heroscape, the king of casual, had points. It is ok GW. It is ok.

Second. The books are marketed as fluff, but it seems the campaigns/scenarios are key to making the game more dynamic. Given the shallow rule system, the game feels like it needs these campaigns to make it good. People are evaluating the game based on skirmish play because most people are not going to cough up the ridiculous money being charged for the books. Make the campaigns free/cheaper GW. They sound integral to your system.

Third. Remember - your game is a hobby first, a game second. I think this was forgotten along the way when you re-tooled for a casual market. Your models and books are expensive. Painting takes time. Yet you put out a 4 page rule book? Something is paradoxical in that line of reasoning. I'll refer to Heroscape again - because it mastered the casual market: Pre-painted figures. Simple rules. Reasonable price point. See how everything lines up? I'm not suggesting you pre-paint your figures, but keep in mind your demographic. Maybe having the game too simple is part of your issue, and there is a group in between the casual and veteran playerbase that is the sweet spot?

My hats off to the WHFB fan base right now. Having a fairly complex rule set abandoned in favour of a Happy Meal system.. I'd be ticked. Hopefully GW pulls some rabbits out of the hat and strikes a balance that brings back its fans and attracts new ones.

TheLionReturns
29-10-2015, 15:01
It's the pushy sales attempts I find repugnant in GW shops - so much I haven't visited one in quite some time.


To be fair this isn't an issue unique to GW. Pushy upselling is pretty much the norm on the British High Street. I don't know if this happens in other countries, but it is pretty standard British retail practise.

nanogasn
29-10-2015, 15:05
To be fair this isn't an issue unique to GW. Pushy upselling is pretty much the norm on the British High Street. I don't know if this happens in other countries, but it is pretty standard British retail practise.

Same in Canada. I saw it at our Comic Con in Toronto too. Very pushy, in a weird enthusiastic way. Smelled of commission to me. I get the same at the local electronics store when they're trying to get me to buy warranty on a $5 item. :)

Niall78
29-10-2015, 15:14
To be fair this isn't an issue unique to GW. Pushy upselling is pretty much the norm on the British High Street. I don't know if this happens in other countries, but it is pretty standard British retail practise.


Same in Canada. I saw it at our Comic Con in Toronto too. Very pushy, in a weird enthusiastic way. Smelled of commission to me. I get the same at the local electronics store when they're trying to get me to buy warranty on a $5 item. :)

I actually have very little experience of modern retail high street shopping so my bad if it is now standard practice. I really only visit the odd book and games shop these days where I'm not exposed to the practice.

I feel very sorry for anyone eking out a living through commissions in basic retail jobs so while I despise the practice I'd always respect the staff member trying to engage me that way. They are trying to get their rent and food money for the week.

Comrade Penguin
29-10-2015, 16:10
There is normal retail pushy and GW pushy, and trust me there is a big difference. I remember back in the early 2000's the red shirt at a local GW tried to hard sell my dad into picking up some miniatures. He was only dropping me off so I could play games and had no interest in it but the red shirt kept pushing. It was needlessly awkward.

The local GW in my area moved to Philadelphia a couple of years ago and I haven't set foot in one since then. The LGS is definitely a more friendly atmosphere in the US.

Shipmonkey
29-10-2015, 16:21
Second. The books are marketed as fluff, but it seems the campaigns/scenarios are key to making the game more dynamic. Given the shallow rule system, the game feels like it needs these campaigns to make it good. People are evaluating the game based on skirmish play because most people are not going to cough up the ridiculous money being charged for the books. Make the campaigns free/cheaper GW. They sound integral to your system.


The campaigns/scenarios are available at a discount on the app. They are about a third cheaper than the book, but include all the campaigns/scenarios/formations from a given book. They are not as cheap as one might hope, but still much cheaper than the whole book.

Drakkar du Chaos
29-10-2015, 16:29
On topic :

Someone on the french board reported that GW was at the Paris Game Week, but just giving AoS flyers to people : no playtesting.

nanogasn
29-10-2015, 17:43
The campaigns/scenarios are available at a discount on the app. They are about a third cheaper than the book, but include all the campaigns/scenarios/formations from a given book. They are not as cheap as one might hope, but still much cheaper than the whole book.

Thanks for this. I'll be sure to check it out.

TheLionReturns
29-10-2015, 19:03
I actually have very little experience of modern retail high street shopping so my bad if it is now standard practice. I really only visit the odd book and games shop these days where I'm not exposed to the practice.

I feel very sorry for anyone eking out a living through commissions in basic retail jobs so while I despise the practice I'd always respect the staff member trying to engage me that way. They are trying to get their rent and food money for the week.

I don't want to defend the practise of course. It really gets on my nerves and I wish GW stores would ease off a bit. Also, as has been mentioned, some places are worse than others, and there is probably a way to do it without being so pushy. I have family who work in retail and from what I hear this assertive upselling isn't popular with staff either.

Vazalaar
29-10-2015, 21:21
;7558779']Yeah because just as an example Remy Tremblay is such a mook sculptor... http://remytremblay-sculpture.blogspot.de/

Sorry, but he doesn't sculpt anymore for Mantic. He know sculpts fulltime for another company. (I can't remember the name). I guess he was to expensive for Mantic. ;)

daveNYC
29-10-2015, 21:39
There is normal retail pushy and GW pushy, and trust me there is a big difference. I remember back in the early 2000's the red shirt at a local GW tried to hard sell my dad into picking up some miniatures. He was only dropping me off so I could play games and had no interest in it but the red shirt kept pushing. It was needlessly awkward.

"Hello disinterested adult unit who is both transportation and money source for one of our customers! How can we make you feel uncomfortable even entering our store?"

nanogasn
29-10-2015, 22:53
The campaigns/scenarios are available at a discount on the app. They are about a third cheaper than the book, but include all the campaigns/scenarios/formations from a given book. They are not as cheap as one might hope, but still much cheaper than the whole book.

Purchased the Age of Sigmar: Battlepack. Definitely has some important scenarios that bring needed depth to the game. Absolute rip off though for the content. Massively overpriced..

Kahadras
29-10-2015, 23:18
Someone on the french board reported that GW was at the Paris Game Week, but just giving AoS flyers to people : no playtesting.

I'm pretty sure that no demo games of AoS have been done at any conventions. One of my friends was at Essen and GW were pretty much the only one's not offering demos of their game which seems a little bit odd IMHO.

Niall78
29-10-2015, 23:25
I'm pretty sure that no demo games of AoS have been done at any conventions. One of my friends was at Essen and GW were pretty much the only one's not offering demos of their game which seems a little bit odd IMHO.

As I waited for my copy of Star Wars Armada to arrive I learned to play watching YouTube videos of the line developer demoing and teaching the game at a variety of big cons.

Kahadras
29-10-2015, 23:34
As I waited for my copy of Star Wars Armada to arrive I learned to play watching YouTube videos of the line developer demoing and teaching the game at a variety of big cons.

I did the same :)

It just seems strange that they haven't got a couple of 4x4 tables set up with games for people to play. One of it's key selling points is the fact that it's lighter and quicker than Warhammer so, IMO, it would lend itself quite well to the sort of demonstration games that you can run at conventions.

Buddy Bear
30-10-2015, 03:14
I hope they have new rules planned. It is possible they released a shell and would evolve it based on community feedback. Though from what I'm hearing about GW, they aren't good listeners of the community? I'm new to the game, and the brand.

Yep, that's not happening. GW doesn't even have an avenue through which they can collect community feedback. They don't have a forum, don't maintain a blog, and don't even do FAQ's anymore. They have no means set up of communicating with the fans whatsoever. At least none that isn't wholly one-sided (White Dwarf or WarhammerTV YouTube channel, which doesn't allow comments on the videos). I would respect GW a lot more if they were to do what WotC did with their production of D&D 5E, but GW have flat out stated that they do no market research and never ask their customers what they want. And with AOS, we see the end result of that philosophy.

scruffyryan
30-10-2015, 04:04
There isn't a single GW store in my state, and the one time there was noise about one opening in my town the playerbase at large was openly hostile to the idea.

Katastrophe
30-10-2015, 11:31
I did the same :)

It just seems strange that they haven't got a couple of 4x4 tables set up with games for people to play. One of it's key selling points is the fact that it's lighter and quicker than Warhammer so, IMO, it would lend itself quite well to the sort of demonstration games that you can run at conventions.

I suspect they don't demo games in open forums due to the possibility that other games present may expose AoSs flaws as a game (though the box set is supposed to be balanced for the scenarios in the box), whereas demoing games at GW (i.e. handing out an invite to come to their store) controls the view of their game and hobby aspects.

Putting their game side by side with other games for quick comparison would likely be a bad idea in near every situation. They lose on rules, price, playability, but would win on the attractiveness of their models. Also the same reason they are having trouble in LGSs comparatively.

The_Real_Chris
30-10-2015, 13:58
This is the ground floor of age of sigmar, imagine warhammer 30 years ago or the arrival of warhammer 40k...

I do - those publications are still sought after as a rich vien of ideas and the rules gave an interesting game too.

The_Real_Chris
30-10-2015, 14:00
They lose on rules, price, playability, but would win on the attractiveness of their models. Also the same reason they are having trouble in LGSs comparatively.



But the latter point isn't a given. they are increasingly very big models, impractical for many games and other companies have lines that show them up quite badly.

Gonefishing
30-10-2015, 14:21
I hope they have new rules planned. It is possible they released a shell and would evolve it based on community feedback. Though from what I'm hearing about GW, they aren't good listeners of the community? I'm new to the game, and the brand.

I will say this. I'm a casual player. I was attracted to AoS because it was marketed as a casual game. And it does feel like it in many respects. But it hurts in several key areas:

First. No comp system. I think GW was trying to go for a more casual approach by not having points, but from my perspective this runs counter. I don't have the breadth of knowledge of all the units to know what my opponent is fielding, or frankly, what I'm fielding. I need a comp system to guide my decisions. I don't want to be a dick. I want to go into a game knowing I'm putting in a fair army. And I want to ensure I know my opponent is doing the same before I waste my time on a game only to find out after the fact that his units were completely over the top. I hear GW might create limits on monsters and heroes, etc.. which imo will not work by itself. You also need a numeric indicator of power. It doesn't matter if it is exactly balanced - point systems are for the casual. If you know the game, you create house rules on what is allowed - points become a reference at most. Heroscape, the king of casual, had points. It is ok GW. It is ok.

Second. The books are marketed as fluff, but it seems the campaigns/scenarios are key to making the game more dynamic. Given the shallow rule system, the game feels like it needs these campaigns to make it good. People are evaluating the game based on skirmish play because most people are not going to cough up the ridiculous money being charged for the books. Make the campaigns free/cheaper GW. They sound integral to your system.

Third. Remember - your game is a hobby first, a game second. I think this was forgotten along the way when you re-tooled for a casual market. Your models and books are expensive. Painting takes time. Yet you put out a 4 page rule book? Something is paradoxical in that line of reasoning. I'll refer to Heroscape again - because it mastered the casual market: Pre-painted figures. Simple rules. Reasonable price point. See how everything lines up? I'm not suggesting you pre-paint your figures, but keep in mind your demographic. Maybe having the game too simple is part of your issue, and there is a group in between the casual and veteran playerbase that is the sweet spot?

My hats off to the WHFB fan base right now. Having a fairly complex rule set abandoned in favour of a Happy Meal system.. I'd be ticked. Hopefully GW pulls some rabbits out of the hat and strikes a balance that brings back its fans and attracts new ones.

Just to say - this is an excellent post and brings up a few things that as a long-time (but now ex) GW customer - I had not really considered. Vets currently find it hard to balance AOS, how in the world is a new player (which appears to be the target market for AOS) supposed to balance a game outside of the starter set, when they have absolutely no frame of reference to what the myriad of models, races and units are capable of?

Niall78
30-10-2015, 14:42
Just to say - this is an excellent post and brings up a few things that as a long-time (but now ex) GW customer - I had not really considered. Vets currently find it hard to balance AOS, how in the world is a new player (which appears to be the target market for AOS) supposed to balance a game outside of the starter set, when they have absolutely no frame of reference to what the myriad of models, races and units are capable of?

No player can balance AoS. To do so would require intimate knowledge of each army and all their units and how these balance against every other force in the game over a whole range of force sizes. Nobody has this knowledge or experience yet in a new system.
The other alternative is to try to build a formula to calculate points costs - nearly impossible to shoe-horn such a formula into an existing game. They are usually built into a system from the beginning.

Buddy Bear
30-10-2015, 15:34
If balancing AOS were an easy task, we certainly wouldn't have the plethora of comp systems which we do now.

MDSW
30-10-2015, 17:02
I am not entirely sure that GW (or frankly many companies at all to be fair) when they decide they need to create or develop something new will have it done in what the public thinks is any measure of reasonable time. How many times did we hear something was 'right around the corner' and it was years before we ever saw something. Meanwhile, the rumour mill churns forth and GW does not do any PR support to help. They create their own disasters, but I do wish all of the AoS critics would just let those that want to play the game alone. There is so much troll rage on this forum, it is really unbelievable.

I am sure that not everyone will answer this question honestly, but raise your hand if you have posted something on here that you would not have the guts to say to a group of real people hanging out in a pub. I can certainly think of a few posters that should raise their hands....

BTW - I am not an AoS player...

Herzlos
30-10-2015, 17:02
Unless he didn't speak to anyone it would seem to fulfill the definition, yes, and in many ways it's the best way for them to do it, people who will be absolutely vile from behind the protection and anonymity of their keyboard a likely to be far more civil in a face-to-face encounter.


Why send the rep to a comic convention, if your aim is to interact with the fans, rather than a wargaming convention, the GW open days, WHW itself or any number of the hundreds of gaming stores and events around the country?

My assumption is that they went to a comic convention to try and entice "collectors" who aren't connected enough with the community to have heard all of the fall out.

I'm not saying branching out is bad - it's a good idea. What is definitely not is an attempt to engage the gaming community, purely because they've dodged the actual gaming community part of it.

Herzlos
30-10-2015, 17:06
As someone who ran a Mekwars server you should know that gamers in general often are terrible and fickle customers who're not even content with stuff they get for free because there's always one thing they don't like about it (usually with some kind of agenda behind it). Then 5% of the forum population tries to be louder than the other 95% to get what they want. And the terrible part is that those 5% are also a herd of cats and want entirely different things, and oddly, not even what they tell you they want (I once implemented a rule that people desperately told me they wanted, exactly how they spelled it out, although I knew it was going to be bad in the big picture. Turns out once they found out that their idea wasn't so great, they went at me because I implemented it, no self-reflection at all...go figure).

Seriously, I said it before from my own experience as a server admin, a gamer, a moderator on one of the biggest German tabletop-related forums: forums are useless to get feedback from in the gaming scene beyond a certain amount of traffic, since the loudmouths drown out the rest in garbage. You couldn't pay me enough to search through all that drivel to get to the tasty nut inside day by day, particularly if most of it basically just serves to insult your work, your colleagues' work and your person. :) I moderate because I like giving something to the community, but if I had to do it, I'd be out of the room before a dropped pen would hit the ground.

And yes, I'm a gamer, too, and I can be difficult. I've been called a rules lawyer before and I do enjoy a bit of rules lawyering indeed.
Anyway, it's my personal opinion on the topic.

I was talking to a customer of ours yesterday, and asked him what he thought of our product. He said it sucked.

So what did I do? I asked him what sucked worst about it. He told me. It's already been addressed and he is hopefully happy. Next time I speak to him I'll ask him what sucks most now, and so on, until he tells me it's great.

Your customers aren't telling you stuff sucks just to be dicks, they are going to the effort of doing so in the hope that maybe you'll fix it.

Spiney Norman
30-10-2015, 19:28
Why send the rep to a comic convention, if your aim is to interact with the fans, rather than a wargaming convention, the GW open days, WHW itself or any number of the hundreds of gaming stores and events around the country?

I'd guess they probably have enough staff at WHW and open days to handle customer interaction without needing a convention rep to be there as well (although he was at the Forgeworld open day as I recall, that was where I played my first game of AoS). I would guess they just sent him to comic con to broaden their exposure, it's surely not a bad thing that GW are trying to sell their products to more people. I don't know whether they have been sending reps to wargame shows or not, that would seem to be part of such a rep's remit no?

Bloodknight
30-10-2015, 20:14
So what did I do? I asked him what sucked worst about it. He told me. It's already been addressed and he is hopefully happy. Next time I speak to him I'll ask him what sucks most now, and so on, until he tells me it's great.

Gamers => herd of cats. Seriously. Get 10 of them together and receive 15 different opinions on what sucks, and 13 of them will be diametrically opposed.
That is the problem. When you have customers who, say, buy a piece of machinery to fulfil one task and it doesn't do that properly or could be doing it more easily if changed so-and-so, that is one thing. When half of your customers want your product to do something opposed to what the other half wants, what do you do?

Zywus
30-10-2015, 21:01
I do wish all of the AoS critics would just let those that want to play the game alone.I'm getting a bit tired of the narrative that AoS fans are some oppressed minority constantly hounded by the rabid AoS haters.

It's not like there exist a separate AoS sub-forum for AoS discusson that people seek out just to cause trouble. There is a thread for fans only. As of this moment I have yet to see anyone negative about AoS venture into that thread and instigating.

Although I can't know if there has been such posts that were removed by mods, I'm quite sure it would have been brought it; up had such a thing happened.

Herzlos
30-10-2015, 21:52
Gamers => herd of cats. Seriously. Get 10 of them together and receive 15 different opinions on what sucks, and 13 of them will be diametrically opposed.
That is the problem. When you have customers who, say, buy a piece of machinery to fulfil one task and it doesn't do that properly or could be doing it more easily if changed so-and-so, that is one thing. When half of your customers want your product to do something opposed to what the other half wants, what do you do?


Whilst a lot of the feedback / suggestions I have seen on here there are defintely running themes. I think everyone can agree that the prices are all over the place, that the batallion boxes don't make very good armies and that the rules need to be made clearer or FAQ'd. It's up to the staff to intrepret all the data.

scruffyryan
30-10-2015, 23:51
I'm getting a bit tired of the narrative that AoS fans are some oppressed minority constantly hounded by the rabid AoS haters.

It's not like there exist a separate AoS sub-forum for AoS discusson that people seek out just to cause trouble. There is a thread for fans only. As of this moment I have yet to see anyone negative about AoS venture into that thread and instigating.

Although I can't know if there has been such posts that were removed by mods, I'm quite sure it would have been brought it; up had such a thing happened.

Yeah it might have legs if the people complaining were making all these threads that got crapped on by haters after asking to keep it positive, but the reality is, the game isn't well recieved on most forums, people are very critical of it, and if folks want to see positive talk about the game and on strategy they're going to have to go out and create it rather than just expecting it to spawn miraculously on forums full of people who don't really like the game.

Spiney Norman
31-10-2015, 00:58
I'm getting a bit tired of the narrative that AoS fans are some oppressed minority constantly hounded by the rabid AoS haters.

It's not like there exist a separate AoS sub-forum for AoS discusson that people seek out just to cause trouble. There is a thread for fans only. As of this moment I have yet to see anyone negative about AoS venture into that thread and instigating.

Although I can't know if there has been such posts that were removed by mods, I'm quite sure it would have been brought it; up had such a thing happened.

So what you're saying is that someone who has a positive opinion of AoS should only express their positive opinion within the confines of one single thread and that if they venture outside of that thread they fully deserve to be told their opinion is wrong and they have no right to hold it?

Or how about we all learn to disagree better and allow people to hold viewpoints that are contrary to our own without bashing them for it...

scruffyryan
31-10-2015, 01:24
So what you're saying is that someone who has a positive opinion of AoS should only express their positive opinion within the confines of one single thread and that if they venture outside of that thread they fully deserve to be told their opinion is wrong and they have no right to hold it?

Or how about we all learn to disagree better and allow people to hold viewpoints that are contrary to our own without bashing them for it...


No what he's saying is that just like this, 3-5 regular posters who like AoS are spending more time going into threads with people who dont like it and arguing over it than they are posting positive threads about the game, strategy, or anything else.

You can't make the forum a positive experience by butting in to pick fights in threads where people are expressing a negative opinion of the game. You want a bunch of positive threads, create em and ask the people who dont like the game to keep out or keep positive, its that simple.

Zywus
31-10-2015, 01:41
So what you're saying is that someone who has a positive opinion of AoS should only express their positive opinion within the confines of one single thread and that if they venture outside of that thread they fully deserve to be told their opinion is wrong and they have no right to hold it?

Or how about we all learn to disagree better and allow people to hold viewpoints that are contrary to our own without bashing them for it...


No what he's saying is that just like this, 3-5 regular posters who like AoS are spending more time going into threads with people who dont like it and arguing over it than they are posting positive threads about the game, strategy, or anything else.

You can't make the forum a positive experience by butting in to pick fights in threads where people are expressing a negative opinion of the game. You want a bunch of positive threads, create em and ask the people who dont like the game to keep out or keep positive, its that simple.
Unsuprisingly you have completely misunderstood my point Spiney. scruffyryan has the gist of it.

Of course AoS discussion should not have to be confined to a single thread and it isn't. I brought that thread up a an example of the pro-Aos posters not being hounded.

Spiney Norman
31-10-2015, 07:47
No what he's saying is that just like this, 3-5 regular posters who like AoS are spending more time going into threads with people who dont like it and arguing over it than they are posting positive threads about the game, strategy, or anything else.

You can't make the forum a positive experience by butting in to pick fights in threads where people are expressing a negative opinion of the game. You want a bunch of positive threads, create em and ask the people who dont like the game to keep out or keep positive, its that simple.

Well it's a good job that is not what I've been doing then, all I've done is contribute to the topics being discussed from my point of view and then proceeded to defend those opinions. That is what you do on a discussion forum right?

Buddy Bear
31-10-2015, 08:11
And that's fine, but you're the one who chooses to engage with those threads that way, so don't turn around and act like you're some kind of oppressed minority when you actively go from thread to thread arguing with people.

Drakkar du Chaos
31-10-2015, 09:18
And that's fine, but you're the one who chooses to engage with those threads that way, so don't turn around and act like you're some kind of oppressed minority when you actively go from thread to thread arguing with people.

This.
I don't mind people enjoying AoS, every brand has die-hard customers, but seeing them arguing on half the board like everyone else and them arguing they are persecuted by haters is false and irritating.

Spiney Norman
31-10-2015, 09:42
And that's fine, but you're the one who chooses to engage with those threads that way, so don't turn around and act like you're some kind of oppressed minority when you actively go from thread to thread arguing with people.

With respect, it takes two to tango. The whole point in a discussion forum is to discuss from multiple points of view, there should be room for a pro-warhammer view on a warhammer discussion forum. Justifying your own intolerance of contrary view points by blaming the person expressing the contrary view makes about as much sense as GW blaming their customers for the failure of their products.

beastsofnurgle
31-10-2015, 10:34
Keep up the fight for reason Spiney

Yunaris
31-10-2015, 11:52
Forgeworld and Age of Sigmar had stands at the show. Frankly the Sigmar stand put me off by being pretty much like every time you try and enter a GW store. You get accosted by staff forced to use the same tired old approach their overseers demand. The stand had some exceptionally well painted figures and very fancy display cases, but just like AoS it was only skin deep. There wasn't actually anything new there and certainly weren't any tables to actually try out the rules (unlike all the other tabletop games there).

Drakkar du Chaos
31-10-2015, 12:03
Forgeworld and Age of Sigmar had stands at the show. Frankly the Sigmar stand put me off by being pretty much like every time you try and enter a GW store. You get accosted by staff forced to use the same tired old approach their overseers demand. The stand had some exceptionally well painted figures and very fancy display cases, but just like AoS it was only skin deep. There wasn't actually anything new there and certainly weren't any tables to actually try out the rules (unlike all the other tabletop games there).

It was the same at the Paris Games Week. All the stands are about VIDEO games but Games Workshop is there, AoS miniatures on the shelves, trying to seduce Call of Duty players with flyers about AoS. And no playtesting, the game is easy as **** but no playtesting. What the hell GW ? Even your staff doesnt want to play your game ? Are you going to E3 2016 as well ? Are you that desperate ?

Khaines Wrath
31-10-2015, 12:11
I am not entirely sure that GW (or frankly many companies at all to be fair) when they decide they need to create or develop something new will have it done in what the public thinks is any measure of reasonable time. How many times did we hear something was 'right around the corner' and it was years before we ever saw something. Meanwhile, the rumour mill churns forth and GW does not do any PR support to help. They create their own disasters, but I do wish all of the AoS critics would just let those that want to play the game alone. There is so much troll rage on this forum, it is really unbelievable.

I am sure that not everyone will answer this question honestly, but raise your hand if you have posted something on here that you would not have the guts to say to a group of real people hanging out in a pub. I can certainly think of a few posters that should raise their hands....

BTW - I am not an AoS player...

I'm never a fan of this line of reasoning. Of course some people wouldn't have the guts to get into arguments with people in public, some people are violent psychotics who turn physical over ridiculous things. Why should fear of physical confrontation invalidate peoples opinions?

Personally I find text based conversation extremely liberating. Not only are arguments not reduced to shouting contests when each side can get their point across uninterrupted but as someone who at times finds it immensely difficult to articulate my thoughts verbally due to a history of speech impediments its my favourite way to communicate.

Niall78
31-10-2015, 12:31
There wasn't actually anything new there and certainly weren't any tables to actually try out the rules (unlike all the other tabletop games there).

Another poster made a good point yesterday that GW probably don't demo AoS to avoid the embarrassment of it getting ripped to pieces in public by the gamers and game developers at conventions.

GW must be the only company that go to gaming conventions and don't demonstrate their game in public.

Kahadras
31-10-2015, 12:52
Another poster made a good point yesterday that GW probably don't demo AoS to avoid the embarrassment of it getting ripped to pieces in public by the gamers and game developers at conventions.

I think it probably is to avoid being compared to other games. Basically I think that GW are hoping to sell AoS on the strength of the models and the brand name. Demo games aren't needed when you are aiming at these two aspects. If they were to do demo games then it would uncover the weakness of AoS which, IMO, is it's rules therefore GW isn't going to run demo games at conventions.

theunwantedbeing
31-10-2015, 13:15
Does anyone have a floorplan of the comicon or images of the various stands so we can see just how much space the AoS wasted by not bothering with anywhere for demo games?

Niall78
31-10-2015, 13:23
I think it probably is to avoid being compared to other games. Basically I think that GW are hoping to sell AoS on the strength of the models and the brand name. Demo games aren't needed when you are aiming at these two aspects. If they were to do demo games then it would uncover the weakness of AoS which, IMO, is it's rules therefore GW isn't going to run demo games at conventions.

Imagine having the likes of the Bolt Action, X-Wing, Armada or DropZone Commander line developers asking demo staff - we don't know who is the AoS developer so he/she wont be there - how the game is balanced. Better to just show the miniatures - especially in the days of camera phones and youtube.

Yunaris
31-10-2015, 13:27
I don't have any pictures, but they had the same floor space as most of the digital game companies and other board games. Something in the region of 15m by 6 or so. Easily enough for at least one demo table. What they had was two large glass display cabinets and a display table, plus a sales counter. In comparison, another tabletop game had four demo tables and was using the demo tables as display stands. I can't remember the name of the game, but it was far more approachable. The digital game stands usually had 4-8 consoles to demo to players. The problem with the AoS stand was it just didn't actually look like a sales stall, it looked like a showcase stall. Forgeworld on the other hand looked like a mini GW store with rows upon rows of kits and other merchandise for sale.

Buddy Bear
31-10-2015, 13:57
With respect, it takes two to tango. The whole point in a discussion forum is to discuss from multiple points of view, there should be room for a pro-warhammer view on a warhammer discussion forum. Justifying your own intolerance of contrary view points by blaming the person expressing the contrary view makes about as much sense as GW blaming their customers for the failure of their products.

I'm not intolerant of your contrary viewpoints, but the victim mentality you put on when people respond to you. You can't claim as you do here that there should be room for contrary viewpoints, and then claim as you do elsewhere that people actively try to squelch Pro-AOS discussion, when a lot of the posts you refer to aren't of AOS fans just happily talking about their game before the mean old Anti-AOS grump came along to squelch their fun, but cases where you actively start arguments with others. The fact that the majority of AOS fan threads are typically left undisturbed demonstrates that. Disagree all you like, but please lay off acting afterwards like a victim because somebody took you up on your invitation to have a spirited discussion on AOS.

TheLionReturns
31-10-2015, 18:17
Is the lack of demo games not in keeping with GW's strategy though? If they see themselves as marketing mainly to collectors, and the game is something incidental you can do with them, then it probably makes sense to focus on presentation rather than gaming. That said I think that seeing the miniatures arrayed in battle lines is part of the visual appeal, although I guess this can be achieved with large dioramas. Not saying I necessarily agree with the lack of demo games, but in terms of the customers they are looking to attract maybe there is at least a logic to the way they make use of convention space.

scruffyryan
31-10-2015, 20:19
With respect, it takes two to tango. The whole point in a discussion forum is to discuss from multiple points of view, there should be room for a pro-warhammer view on a warhammer discussion forum. Justifying your own intolerance of contrary view points by blaming the person expressing the contrary view makes about as much sense as GW blaming their customers for the failure of their products.

With respect, it isn't as though people who don't like the game are swarming pro AoS labeled threads, but I can count on you, hellokitty, and/or 1 or 2 others being in any thread whose title is clearly negative toward the game. That door swings both ways. There is no inherent virtue in defending your right to be contrarian on the subject while bemoaning the(false) idea that people who like the game are getting dogpiled over it here. I get that it might not be the most heartening forum to be on as a fan of the game but thats just how the chips fall. The warseer community at large does not like it and as a result most of the discussion of it is going to be about how they don't like it. The people who might change minds on the subject aren't randos on a forum, they're RL friends who may convince someone to give it another go.

The best a vigorous defense of the game in threads that are negative about it is going to do is get under the skin of people who don't like the game. Same as trash talking it in generally positive threads does for those who do like it. Since they aren't going to separate forums for old wfb and AoS, trying to keep a voluntary separation and not going out of your way to pee in others cheerios is the next best option.

Of course the another option is that the unspoken agreement NOT to pee in others cheerios gets abused so often that the voluntary separation of pro and anti sentiment in various threads dissolves completely. After all if people can't respect the boundaries of a gripe thread, there's no reason to respect the boundaries of a thread extolling the game either.

Spiney Norman
31-10-2015, 21:46
With respect, it isn't as though people who don't like the game are swarming pro AoS labeled threads, but I can count on you, hellokitty, and/or 1 or 2 others being in any thread whose title is clearly negative toward the game.

There is only one thread in this forum 'clearly labelled' as negative towards AoS and I haven't even read it, let alone posted in it. I'm not talking about the 'clearly labelled' threads at all but all the neutral ones (like this one) which in their very nature invite comments from a variety of view points.

MDSW
02-11-2015, 18:30
I'm never a fan of this line of reasoning. Of course some people wouldn't have the guts to get into arguments with people in public, some people are violent psychotics who turn physical over ridiculous things. Why should fear of physical confrontation invalidate peoples opinions?

Personally I find text based conversation extremely liberating. Not only are arguments not reduced to shouting contests when each side can get their point across uninterrupted but as someone who at times finds it immensely difficult to articulate my thoughts verbally due to a history of speech impediments its my favourite way to communicate.

No arguement at all, KW, my friend! It just does not demand you be rude because you feel there are really no repercussions. I guess it is just my nature to desire a more helpful society. :)

Ayin
02-11-2015, 18:42
Just to drop in, New York Comicon had an Age of Sigmar booth. I got a Khorne button and shook my head at how comparatively empty their area was compared to everything around them.

The_Real_Chris
02-11-2015, 18:48
Back on topic, teeth and manners aside...

It definitively seems to be a sales tactic to not let people play the game. Completely alien to the games industry, but hey GW are special.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

AngryAngel
02-11-2015, 19:10
I have to tell you as a relatively new member and poster, that it is the same people continually being caustic and argumentative.

OK, my turn... Is that why some of you spend so much time and effort and spit forth unneeded, rude comments because you really have no friends you see face-to-face anymore because of your 'argue with every comment I make' attitude?

If your reply is "Hey buddy, I got LOTS of friends!" then clearly you fall into the group of troll-mongers I outline in my previous post above. ***cough** ahem, WUSS***cough***

And, to stem of any replies of "I would say the same thing face to face" I would with 100% certainty say you would not behave that way with me and keep all of your teeth. After 20 years in the military, I am sure it would not be a fair fight.

So, let's all practice on this forum relatively the same etiquette we practice at our jobs when sending an email - do not rage type and re-read your email before you send it, just to make sure it will not be taken offensively. Healthy debate is great and desired. Childish name calling is another. And frankly, this particular thread is not really full of the most terrible instances or offenders!

I'm somewhat confused as to what your speaking about. As I'd hope anyone from the american military would understand and appreciate free speech good and bad as worthy of protection. If your saying just because you feel you would beat down anyone who would disagree with you would keep them from speaking their opinion, I can say you are wrong. Not everyone is petrified at a confrontation. I will also say if you have to stoop to attacking someone, over disagreement of a game, especially AoS, I think you have some kind of mental/emotional disorder. If your saying threats of violence should keep peoples words in line, you missed the nature of what america was founded upon. As well I am curious who exactly your talking of, as an aside.



I'm a bit confused, are you arguing with yourself here? It reads a bit like Gollum.

If you use the little plus button at the bottom of people's posts you can quote multiple posters - I'd be genuinely interested to see which one you see as rude name calling, as I don't think I've seen any of that. There's a little bit of 'he said, she said' between Spiney and Buddy but given that comes up in every thread at the moment, I'm starting to think they're flirting more than fighting.

Also, FYI, preaching tolerance and then saying if someone was a little bit rude you punch their teeth out is... not a great attitude. I imagine it's people like you that Khaine's Wrath is referring to further above.

Yeah glad I'm not the only one who picked up on that.



Back on topic, teeth and manners aside...

It definitively seems to be a sales tactic to not let people play the game. Completely alien to the games industry, but hey GW are special.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

They are special that is certain.

Ayin
02-11-2015, 19:20
Back on topic, teeth and manners aside...

It definitively seems to be a sales tactic to not let people play the game. Completely alien to the games industry, but hey GW are special.


Although I didn't get any pictures to help remember, GW's AoS booth at NY Comic Con was set up in the same style as other model booths (as in statue models, not model games), with their product in display cases and behind glass. What was really striking about it was the LACK of product set up. Since it was an "Age of Sigmar!" booth and not a GW in general booth, it ONLY ad AoS stuff...which is about the starter box and another unit? There were Sigmarite cardboard stand ups and a banner, but over all it was very...sparse? Hollow? Not really sure what to say.

SethDrallitoc
02-11-2015, 19:43
Depends on your definition of 'all over' and 'country'. There's no longer a GW store in NYC for instance. Not to mention the huge difference between an online presence that is available 24/7 from virtually (see what I did there?) anywhere, and a store that you have to physically go to.

That's not even getting into what others have mentioned concerning exactly how much actual useful interaction the GW staff can do, considering that they're nearly as much in the dark as the customers and might not have the ability to communicate customer concerns up the food chain.

There is a "Warhammer" store on 8th Street in Greenwich village, across the street from where GW used to be.

MDSW
02-11-2015, 21:34
I'm a bit confused, are you arguing with yourself here? It reads a bit like Gollum.

If you use the little plus button at the bottom of people's posts you can quote multiple posters - I'd be genuinely interested to see which one you see as rude name calling, as I don't think I've seen any of that. There's a little bit of 'he said, she said' between Spiney and Buddy but given that comes up in every thread at the moment, I'm starting to think they're flirting more than fighting.

Also, FYI, preaching tolerance and then saying if someone was a little bit rude you punch their teeth out is... not a great attitude. I imagine it's people like you that Khaine's Wrath is referring to further above.

OK - I may have a conflicting argument regarding wishing it were a little more supportive in these forums and then stating it was my turn to be a total idiot - which was exactly what I was doing. I am sure your experience should have caught the satire in my post. Maybe I should have put a smiley face... However, it really appears people half read comments and fly off, so I will reserve my comments in this forum to those that do not flame rage or argue, because it really is pointless. My promise going forward.

AngryAngel
03-11-2015, 00:10
If your looking looking for people to not argue with you on an internet forum, I'm afraid your in the wrong place.

Khaines Wrath
03-11-2015, 04:34
If your looking looking for people to not argue with you on an internet forum, I'm afraid your in the wrong place.

It is a bit like looking for water in the desert isn't it?

Smooth Boy
03-11-2015, 05:38
I think this thread needs taking round the back of the shed to be 'set free'.

williamsond
03-11-2015, 06:37
I think this thread needs taking round the back of the shed to be 'set free'.

Is our pet thready going to live on a farm Gandpa? will it have rabits to chase?

Khastarax
03-11-2015, 09:51
I was hoping to see some pics of the booth here... unfortunately ony the same negativity as in the other 10+ threads. Trying to be neutral here: can we keep one 'negative' thread here in the same way as there is a 'positive' thread?

Spiney Norman
03-11-2015, 10:16
I was hoping to see some pics of the booth here... unfortunately ony the same negativity as in the other 10+ threads. Trying to be neutral here: can we keep one 'negative' thread here in the same way as there is a 'positive' thread?

That was (I think) the idea, to have one clearly labelled positive and one clearly labelled negativ thread (which we have) and then everything else was 'neutral' and open for discussion. Unfortunately anything thread that does not clearly say it is positive-only in th title tends to get overwhelmed by a tide of negativity and any positive opinion that gets expressed basically gets stamped on until the poster gives up or goes away.

Khaines Wrath
03-11-2015, 10:33
People...discuss the topic, your free to and many have. Both negatively and positively.

Though given the op there wasn't exactly a small chance it was going to be largely negative.

But really, how far was a conversation about a booth at comic con UK going to get?

Drakkar du Chaos
03-11-2015, 10:33
That was (I think) the idea, to have one clearly labelled positive and one clearly labelled negativ thread (which we have) and then everything else was 'neutral' and open for discussion. Unfortunately anything thread that does not clearly say it is positive-only in th title tends to get overwhelmed by a tide of negativity and any positive opinion that gets expressed basically gets stamped on until the poster gives up or goes away.

Like it or not AoS players are the tiny minority on warseer.

broxus
03-11-2015, 12:11
Like it or not AoS players are the tiny minority on warseer.

You could also say the growing minority.

Katastrophe
03-11-2015, 12:39
You could also say the growing minority.

Relatively I suppose. Each person that gives up on Fantasy via GW makes the few AoS fans a greater portion of the remaining Warseerites. Since HelloKitty decided to leave, maybe you can take his place.

Maybe 9th Age will revitalize at least some of the community here. AoS has had the opposite effort.

Voss
03-11-2015, 12:40
You could also say the growing minority.

Even with people abandoning interest in any version of warhammer altogether, is that actually true?

Holier Than Thou
03-11-2015, 12:50
I was hoping to see some pics of the booth here... unfortunately ony the same negativity as in the other 10+ threads. Trying to be neutral here: can we keep one 'negative' thread here in the same way as there is a 'positive' thread?

Although everything that could possibly be said in a positive light about Age of Sigmar can and does fit in a single, reasonably slow thread the same cannot be said about the negative issues with it. No single thread could hope to contain everything that people hate about it.

MDSW
03-11-2015, 13:21
I could care less about people being negative or having negative comments or disliking something and giving their opinion. What I have an issue with are when they turn so rude, I know for a fact they would not say those same words to someone's face. Anyone has the right to not agree and dislike what someone likes, but there should be some respect as to the other's opinion, just like you want respect for yours.

Oh well, that is the internet in general for you. Just must be my old man tendencies!!!

Alright, PLAY ON!

Zywus
03-11-2015, 14:19
It's a shame you interpret people as being rude. At least they aren't talking about assaulting other people physically though (unlike someone in this very thread).

Also, it's couldn't care less

rmeister0
03-11-2015, 17:11
Once the Heresy marines hit the shelves, people will care even less about AoS than they do now until some new models get released.

That 'bottom of the iceberg' need to surface pretty soon if there's gonna be any kind of fanbase left that cares even a bit about AoS.

At some point you need to show the goods or you're just spinning hot air. The whole more to come thing was floating around when AoS was initially released, and so far we've seen four expensive books and a couple of really expensive centerpiece models. After 40K gets some love whatever comes next cannot just be more Stormcast or Khorne and really better not be another $75 book.

Spiney Norman
03-11-2015, 17:20
Like it or not AoS players are the tiny minority on warseer.

So being a member of a minority is sufficient justification for abuse online? HK, one of the most polite and constructive members of the site, quit Warseer because of the constant hounding he was getting from certain posters over AoS, just saying 'it doesn't matter he was in the minority' does not justify that kind of behaviour.

I've got to admit it's going to be interesting how the GW-haters spin the plastic Heresy release, I'm sure there will be something about it that demonstrates GWs 'laziness' and 'lack of understanding of their customers' despite launching an instant hit that thousands of people have been anticipating for ages.

Ronin[XiC]
03-11-2015, 17:23
"Abuse"
Don't try to be the victim were no crime has been commited.

Tyranno1
03-11-2015, 17:40
So being a member of a minority is sufficient justification for abuse online? HK, one of the most polite and constructive members of the site, quit Warseer because of the constant hounding he was getting from certain posters over AoS, just saying 'it doesn't matter he was in the minority' does not justify that kind of behaviour.

I've got to admit it's going to be interesting how the GW-haters spin the plastic Heresy release, I'm sure there will be something about it that demonstrates GWs 'laziness' and 'lack of understanding of their customers' despite launching an instant hit that thousands of people have been anticipating for ages.

He was pointing out that you will have more people argue against your point when you are in a minority, not that you are free to abuse. Nobody said it was ok to "abuse" others online.

And I think you are confusing AOS hate with GW hate. As the two are not the same. (Then again, who wouldnt hate GW after they canned a game you invested in with no warning and said nothing for 6 months?)
Nobody has said HH is doomed to fail by GWs incompetence. And plenty of "AOS-haters" have pointed out it will do well.

Niall78
03-11-2015, 17:54
So being a member of a minority is sufficient justification for abuse online? HK, one of the most polite and constructive members of the site, quit Warseer because of the constant hounding he was getting from certain posters over AoS, just saying 'it doesn't matter he was in the minority' does not justify that kind of behaviour.

I've got to admit it's going to be interesting how the GW-haters spin the plastic Heresy release, I'm sure there will be something about it that demonstrates GWs 'laziness' and 'lack of understanding of their customers' despite launching an instant hit that thousands of people have been anticipating for ages.

Could you link to all these abusive posts? A few posters mention abusive posts but when asked to link to some go strangely silent. The staff do a good job here - compared to most forums this place is very civilised.

Could you also link to the posts that state the Heresy release will be a failure? I haven't seen any.

Teurastaja
03-11-2015, 17:59
;7561704']"Abuse"
Don't try to be the victim were no crime has been commited.

Shh, cult of Sigmar needs some martyrs ;)

scruffyryan
03-11-2015, 18:00
Could you link to all these abusive posts? A few posters mention abusive posts but when asked to link to some go strangely silent. The staff do a good job here - compared to most forums this place is very civilised.

Could you also link to the posts that state the Heresy release will be a failure? I haven't seen any.

Its the new internet description of harassment, if enough people disagree with you in a sarcastic or snarky tone via text, you're being harassed.

Voss
03-11-2015, 18:21
So being a member of a minority is sufficient justification for abuse online? HK, one of the most polite and constructive members of the site, quit Warseer because of the constant hounding he was getting from certain posters over AoS, just saying 'it doesn't matter he was in the minority' does not justify that kind of behaviour.
:rolleyes: Go into threads to argue opinions with people and, surprise, surprise, people will argue with you. Abuse is something quite different.


I've got to admit it's going to be interesting how the GW-haters spin the plastic Heresy release, I'm sure there will be something about it that demonstrates GWs 'laziness' and 'lack of understanding of their customers' despite launching an instant hit that thousands of people have been anticipating for ages.
Easy: its boring marine only junk, more of the same we've seen a thousand times before. Happy now?


That said, at least as a business decision, HH makes sense, and fits into the existing narrative of both the game and the business. So while I personally feel its horribly boring and a waste of time, it is financially sound. The same absolutely cannot be said about AoS.

Katastrophe
03-11-2015, 18:33
I've got to admit it's going to be interesting how the GW-haters spin the plastic Heresy release, I'm sure there will be something about it that demonstrates GWs 'laziness' and 'lack of understanding of their customers' despite launching an instant hit that thousands of people have been anticipating for ages.

Except no one has even hinted at that. Everyone accepts that more marines (at least in the short run) will be a huge seller for GW. In fact, I would hazard a guess that lots of people have been clamoring for Mark iV and other older model designs in plastic. Whether they made those models for the Horus Heresy game or current 40K, it did not matter, as those models would be desired for either. It would have been like having the LotR models interchangeable with WFB, they would sell just because and the Mark IVs will sell, well just because.

You know what no one asked for - AoS. Another things no one was asking for - SigMarines. People that play WFB did not want a Marine army for WFB. GW did, because they take their Space Marine sales figures and think that desire is purely for Space Marine models across any genre. I believe they were wrong, and I suspect sales of the figures and box sets bear that out.

That, in my mind, is the difference in simplest terms. GW went and destroyed a beloved game and essentially (we suspect at least) obsoleted a large portion of their model range and no one was asking for that to happen (whether it was a business necessity is another thing). People are and have begged for a 30K game or at least 30K era models to be made for incorporation into current 40K. Thus, it will sell.

Drakkar du Chaos
03-11-2015, 18:44
So being a member of a minority is sufficient justification for abuse online? HK, one of the most polite and constructive members of the site, quit Warseer because of the constant hounding he was getting from certain posters over AoS, just saying 'it doesn't matter he was in the minority' does not justify that kind of behaviour.

I've got to admit it's going to be interesting how the GW-haters spin the plastic Heresy release, I'm sure there will be something about it that demonstrates GWs 'laziness' and 'lack of understanding of their customers' despite launching an instant hit that thousands of people have been anticipating for ages.

You like it, aren't you ? Defending that crap nobodies cares about, standing against many people, fighting a lost cause, playing the noble optimistic martyr... so many time lost for nothing but your own ego.

The only thing i want to hear from you haven't be answered yet, each time you avoid it : you promote the rules of a game that you massively house-ruled right from the beginning, playing it in the narrative context of the Old World instead of the new one, and still you say AoS is GREAT. Does that makes you an hypocrite promoting something you actually does not find good enough for you ?

Voss
03-11-2015, 19:10
you promote the rules of a game that you massively house-ruled right from the beginning
Be fair: Spiney absolutely hated it at the beginning.

Niall78
03-11-2015, 19:57
So being a member of a minority is sufficient justification for abuse online? HK, one of the most polite and constructive members of the site, quit Warseer because of the constant hounding he was getting from certain posters over AoS, just saying 'it doesn't matter he was in the minority' does not justify that kind of behaviour.

I've got to admit it's going to be interesting how the GW-haters spin the plastic Heresy release, I'm sure there will be something about it that demonstrates GWs 'laziness' and 'lack of understanding of their customers' despite launching an instant hit that thousands of people have been anticipating for ages.



Could you link to all these abusive posts? A few posters mention abusive posts but when asked to link to some go strangely silent. The staff do a good job here - compared to most forums this place is very civilised.

Could you also link to the posts that state the Heresy release will be a failure? I haven't seen any.

I think I'll be waiting a while. Like I said when asked for linked examples - and there should be loads as you and others keep talking of abuse a lot - posters go strangely silent.

Niall78
03-11-2015, 20:00
Be fair: Spiney absolutely hated it at the beginning.

He possibly learned that if you play a heavily comped AoS that uses rules multiples the size of the RAW, use the Old World narrative/setting and ignore all the new stupid names the game is actually quite good. It isn't AoS - but it has made the AoS system semi-playable.

Comrade Penguin
03-11-2015, 20:18
I've been active on several of these AOS forums and I can honestly say most of the harassment in the past month or two has been coming from the Pro-AOS camp. Isn't there a Pro-AOSer in this very thread that was threatening to fight people if they voiced their AOS complaints face to face?

And I am not referring to Spiney or HK, usually it comes from users who signed up in August-Oct 2015.

Denny
03-11-2015, 20:39
HK, one of the most polite and constructive members of the site, quit Warseer.

That totally sucks. HK was a real positive, polite guy/cat, and seemed really enthused about the stuff he played.

Plus he wins additional respect as he didn't start an 'I'm Leaving' thread. I hate those.

I hope he keeps having adventures on his island.

Holier Than Thou
03-11-2015, 20:45
What actually appears to be happening is some people who defend AOS either begin arguments in various threads then say they are being abused when people argue back or they make a claim that gets challenged by someone and then they dismiss that person as a hater.

Baldindo
03-11-2015, 21:56
We need to be here next year if you want more of the exquisite models we make. To be here next year we have to do what all our customers want, not just a noisy few, and find a way of making money doing it. This year, though, is an exceptional year.

L (http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/chairmans-preamble.pdf)ets see if how few those 'noisy few' really are. (http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/chairmans-preamble.pdf)

Khaines Wrath
03-11-2015, 22:11
I could care less about people being negative or having negative comments or disliking something and giving their opinion. What I have an issue with are when they turn so rude, I know for a fact they would not say those same words to someone's face. Anyone has the right to not agree and dislike what someone likes, but there should be some respect as to the other's opinion, just like you want respect for yours.

Oh well, that is the internet in general for you. Just must be my old man tendencies!!!

Alright, PLAY ON!

Meh, respecting all opinions equally is disingenuous. I respect peoples rights to an opinion and would never threaten violence against them for holding it but once that opinions out there discussion makes it fair game.

Respect is earned through actions and words. Its even harder to obtain because what people constitute as admirable qualities worthy of respect is not universal.


It's a shame you interpret people as being rude. At least they aren't talking about assaulting other people physically though (unlike someone in this very thread).

Also, it's couldn't care less

The irony is palpable right?

ewar
03-11-2015, 22:21
L (http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/chairmans-preamble.pdf)ets see if how few those 'noisy few' really are. (http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/chairmans-preamble.pdf)

Although I've read that before I did notice a footnote for the first time:
"For those who fret about this sort of thing, rest assured no miniature has been made redundant, no army is unwelcome in the new
system, no paint job, no conversion is now worthless. As always we make these changes with great care. Your miniatures are the real
‘eternals’."

What a paternalistic ****. I am one of those who frets about this sort of thing... you know, I'm called a customer.

Honestly, he needs to realise that actually it's their fictional worlds which should be eternal - I can use miniatures to represent all sorts of things in any game I care to choose. What made GW different was the background. Honestly. What a tool. /rant

AngryAngel
03-11-2015, 22:31
It is a bit like looking for water in the desert isn't it?

Exactly like there, you can find what you seek but it is very rare and precious.



So being a member of a minority is sufficient justification for abuse online? HK, one of the most polite and constructive members of the site, quit Warseer because of the constant hounding he was getting from certain posters over AoS, just saying 'it doesn't matter he was in the minority' does not justify that kind of behaviour.

I've got to admit it's going to be interesting how the GW-haters spin the plastic Heresy release, I'm sure there will be something about it that demonstrates GWs 'laziness' and 'lack of understanding of their customers' despite launching an instant hit that thousands of people have been anticipating for ages.

Now, Spiney, you know we've stood on the same battle lines and for AoS on opposite sides, and I respect you for your opinions good or bad, agreement with me or disagree, but on this I have to offer a quick no way statement. If HK left, that was his choice, however lest we forget he'd been here before on a different name and gave as good as he got as far as snipes and bickering went, lets not hoist him up as perfect now. If he left, that is sad news to hear, as he had strong opinions and always voiced them freely and with conviction. Having looked in most of these threads attacks fly both ways, I wouldn't really term it as abuse however, people are just heated on this topic and will be for some time I imagine.



Be fair: Spiney absolutely hated it at the beginning.

That is accurate to say.



What actually appears to be happening is some people who defend AOS either begin arguments in various threads then say they are being abused when people argue back or they make a claim that gets challenged by someone and then they dismiss that person as a hater.

That has happened since long before AoS came around. It just ends up hard to have a back and forth when one side is dismissed as a hater or being called abusive and then the other side gets plastered as fan boys and also called abusive. At the end of the day people need a thicker skin and an actual desire to debate and not just hear opinions that endorse their own.

Spiney Norman
03-11-2015, 22:50
Could you link to all these abusive posts? A few posters mention abusive posts but when asked to link to some go strangely silent. The staff do a good job here - compared to most forums this place is very civilised.

Could you also link to the posts that state the Heresy release will be a failure? I haven't seen any.

No need, the mods have a stack of reports to looks through, I'll leave it in their capable hands, I'm certainly not going give you mo ammunition to fuel the argument.


Be fair: Spiney absolutely hated it at the beginning.

Looking back I didn't hate the game because at that point I hadn't played it, I hated what it represented - the death of wfb. Once I got over that and gave it a chance I discovered I actually liked it.



The only thing i want to hear from you haven't be answered yet, each time you avoid it : you promote the rules of a game that you massively house-ruled right from the beginning, playing it in the narrative context of the Old World instead of the new one, and still you say AoS is GREAT. Does that makes you an hypocrite promoting something you actually does not find good enough for you ?

You're either deliberately exaggerating or you're reading Niall's deliberately exaggerated accounts of what I've written. I have not 'massively house-ruled' anything, I've tried AoS with a number of different comp. packs and none and I think it's a great little game whatever you do with it. No it's not the kind of game you can abuse to the max and enjoy yourself while doing so, but that actually attracts me to it more because that's not how I or my regular gaming group like to play games.

I've tried Azyr comp, I've tried the uk independent pools and I've play a lot with the out-of the box rules combined with a great attitude (both me and my opponents) and enjoyed them all.

The fluff is expanding all the time, obviously info on the new setting is still pretty limited because it's still super-young, but it'll get there, for me the hobby is more about the models that I'm painting anyway.

Niall78
03-11-2015, 23:20
No need, the mods have a stack of reports to looks through, I'll leave it in their capable hands, I'm certainly not going give you mo ammunition to fuel the argument.


Like I said when posters have mentioned 'abuse' and been asked to produce a few examples none are forthcoming.

I think in some peoples minds disagreement and discussion equals abuse. This is a public forum - not a Facebook fan group echo chamber - disagreement and discussion are the order of the day. As long as that disagreement and discussion stays civil it's all good.

tmod
03-11-2015, 23:31
Could you link to all these abusive posts? A few posters mention abusive posts but when asked to link to some go strangely silent. The staff do a good job here - compared to most forums this place is very civilised.

Could you also link to the posts that state the Heresy release will be a failure? I haven't seen any.

I haven't seen anyone claiming it will be a failure, but I'm a little bit sceptical as to how big a success it can possibly be. There's a distinction between being a success in its own right or not and being able to save GW's financial year on its own. I think it'll be very successful, but I don't think a handful of existing 30k customers will buy dozens of kits each and alone be able to sustain the conpany. If the guesstimated production run number 15k units is anywhere near the true number of units produced, HH will likely be one of the biggest single product sellers of the year. It will also increase total sales by less than one percent of the total, in othet words hardly noticeable on the next annual report. Note that these numbers are pure speculation, my point is simply that there's a scope for a big success that still doesn't make or break the company!

Sent fra min GT-I9506 via Tapatalk

GrandmasterWang
03-11-2015, 23:36
Wow.

I haven't been on here in a couple of weeks.

What happened to Hello Kitty? He was one of the best posters on these boards.

How long ago did he leave?

I can understand he was frustrated having to always explain himself and having his opinions misrepresented.

That's a shame if he is really gone for good.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Spiney Norman
03-11-2015, 23:49
Wow.

I haven't been on here in a couple of weeks.

What happened to Hello Kitty? He was one of the best posters on these boards.

How long ago did he leave?

I can understand he was frustrated having to always explain himself and having his opinions misrepresented.

That's a shame if he is really gone for good.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

He did a pretty quiet sign-off in the Azyr comp. thread in the rules dev forum last week, and yeah it's a loss to Warseer to loose someone that enthusiastic about the hobby.

Niall78
04-11-2015, 00:36
I haven't seen anyone claiming it will be a failure, but I'm a little bit sceptical as to how big a success it can possibly be. There's a distinction between being a success in its own right or not and being able to save GW's financial year on its own. I think it'll be very successful, but I don't think a handful of existing 30k customers will buy dozens of kits each and alone be able to sustain the conpany. If the guesstimated production run number 15k units is anywhere near the true number of units produced, HH will likely be one of the biggest single product sellers of the year. It will also increase total sales by less than one percent of the total, in othet words hardly noticeable on the next annual report. Note that these numbers are pure speculation, my point is simply that there's a scope for a big success that still doesn't make or break the company!

I don't think it will be a failure but I think it could potentially fracture the 40K player-base. There's already been a poster on the GW general board claiming he wont allow anyone with 40K miniatures play at his 30K table. That left me wondering if mixed 30k/40k will be allowed in GW shops. If it isn't I see troubled waters ahead.

Buddy Bear
04-11-2015, 01:43
I plan on picking up a Horus Heresy box, if for no other reason than to use the models for my Ultramarines army in 40k.

GrandmasterWang
04-11-2015, 02:24
He did a pretty quiet sign-off in the Azyr comp. thread in the rules dev forum last week, and yeah it's a loss to Warseer to loose someone that enthusiastic about the hobby.
Thanks for the heads up. I had a look at his send off.

I'm sure he will have more fun without getting heckled.

I agree it is Warseer's loss.

Oh well

Ayin
04-11-2015, 06:11
Like I said when posters have mentioned 'abuse' and been asked to produce a few examples none are forthcoming.

I think safe money was well on the side of "claims abuse/can't give example" from the second you asked for it.

ScruffMan
04-11-2015, 06:50
Thanks for the heads up. I had a look at his send off.

I'm sure he will have more fun without getting heckled.

I agree it is Warseer's loss.

Oh well


Indeed. If you're lurking and read this, sorry to see you go HK. Ten times the poster of any of those who irritated you into leaving.

Vazalaar
04-11-2015, 07:23
Indeed. If you're lurking and read this, sorry to see you go HK. Ten times the poster of any of those who irritated you into leaving.

I agree.

Imo it's best to just ignore most of Warseer, except the painting part. It's way better for your hobby motivation than browsing these threads.

Khastarax
04-11-2015, 10:10
No booth pics or reviews of meetings with the staff from anyone who spoke to them?

theunwantedbeing
04-11-2015, 10:41
No booth pics or reviews of meetings with the staff from anyone who spoke to them?

Presumably that would undermine the whole AoS is rubbish theme of the thread if those of us who didn't go actually got to see what the booth looked like compared to the others that were seemingly a lot better.

Shipmonkey
04-11-2015, 10:58
Could you link to all these abusive posts? A few posters mention abusive posts but when asked to link to some go strangely silent. The staff do a good job here - compared to most forums this place is very civilised.

It's hard to link to the most abusive posts, seeing as the moderators have removed them. You should ask the thread originator where his best anti-AoS posts are.

dragonelf
04-11-2015, 12:02
Just a reminder, people don't all share the same opinion, people are allowed to change their opinions and we live in a world where people should be allowed to express their opinion freely. I find it irritating that spineless ****** abuse people on the internet when they are too cowardly to say it in person. Play the game you like, don't play the game you don't like and leave others to do the same.