PDA

View Full Version : What army has the best balance between ranged and melee combat..?



Merellin
30-10-2015, 16:36
So, I was just curious what army has the most balance between ranged combat and melee combat. Not being the best at either, But capable of doing both well enough to get by.

Marshal
30-10-2015, 16:43
Probably Marines. I know nobody wants to hear that, but Marines take the cake on this one. Probably specifically Space Wolves. The ability to equip bolters, pistols and CC weapons, rapid fire into enemies and let them charge you, overwatch, then counter attack for the charge bonus yourself. Plus 2 special weapons (Plasma or Melta) and a combi of the same in each squad is fearsome. Grey Hunters backed up by Long Fangs and Preds for ranged support and Thunder Wolves for CC support.

stroller
30-10-2015, 17:34
What Marshal said - and actually, what's wrong with hearing that?

wyvirn
30-10-2015, 17:40
Because marines are terrible* in close combat.

*compared to good close combat specialists.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Zombie P
30-10-2015, 17:44
Yeah, grey hunters probably top the list. But the first say, 30* entries are all space marines.

ZP

*Exaggerated for effect

Dr.Clock
30-10-2015, 17:51
Well... yeah, marines are well balanced to do both things... but there are certainly other lists IMO that can take a balanced 'assault and shooting' approach.

I think marines are certainly the most forgiving when you take this approach, but I think Eldar and some Chaos builds can also work in this milieu.

Eldar obviously are a more high-risk/high-reward proposition due to a basic T deficiency. This is countered by the fact that everyone in the list is pretty impressively skilled, wicked fast, and likely to have some kind of 'elite' flavour in the form of special rules.

Take DA: they also have counter-attack, and they overwatch at BS2 with bladestorming weapons. They can all get a 5++ pretty cheaply, and while more short-ranged than a bolter marine, they will wreck marines inside 18", and can actually kite marines getting 2 shots for the marines one using battle focus. So right out the gate, DA are a pretty balanced troop selection.

For me, though, the true CC 'balance' for Eldar comes in the form of Scorpions. I take 3x5 in a dedicated Aspect host in many games around 1850 points, and they are just fantastic at just over 300 points built with one of each exarch weapon. The new mandiblaster rules are pretty amazing, amounting to Hammer of Wrath every turn that auto-wounds on 4s. Coupled with a 'wieldy' power-fist as needed, and getting stealth and shrouded until you actually do something to the enemy, the space elf ninja is a pretty great buy to balance out a list known primarily for firepower. If all else fails just grab a sword-Knight!

The there's Chaos - Plague Marines are pretty much just as 'balanced' in shooting and assault as Grey Hunters are - plague knives make all the difference. Add to this the ability to customize any given squad to get a bit more toughness or CC effect, and you've got the makings of a pretty darn balanced force. They're rendered less than 'competitive' due to a general lack of attractive formations, but I expect their next codex to be much more interesting in this regard.

Really, most lists can do assault and shooting 'well enough to get by'. There are a few outliers, mostly in the form of Tau, KDK and mono-Harlequins, but GW's design paradigm for 40k has pretty much always been 'you can and should build shooting and CC into your list', so most lists have the tools they need to compete in all areas. Even things like IG can do some neat CC stuff using the classic blobsquads etc. Heck - even an army of Knights can be built to balance shooting and assault : P

All this is to say that 'balancing' shooting and assault is mostly not too difficult. I find the mobility and unit type mix of an army to be in general more important in developing a viable strategy.

Finally - shout out to Strathvegas, home of the turkey festival! ^_^

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Okuto
30-10-2015, 18:43
Space wolves IMO. I too had wondered this and found that wolves do it best.

-They have the most flexible troop choice(grey hunters)
-They have decent cqc
-they have a bit of everything, footsloggers, fast troops, armor and its relatively useful
-Decent customization possibility(not as good as before but decent)

Marshal
30-10-2015, 19:22
Finally - shout out to Strathvegas, home of the turkey festival! ^_^

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

lol :D

Eldar are fantastic at everything, just not at the same time though so I guess it depends on what the OP wants. If they are looking for an army that's fantastic at ranged combat and also fantastic at melee but don't care if it's an either/or scenario, in which case, Eldar top the list. Each unit is completely specialized in the fact that they are either fantastic at shooting, or fantastic at melee but fall to pieces if required to perform the other role (insert Wraithknight exception here, stompy stompy...). For shooting, Eldar have Windriders, Dark Reapers, Guardians, Swooping Hawks, Warwalkers, Vypers, Falcons, Fire Prisms... For melee, Eldar have Scorpions, Banshees, Storm Guardians, Shining Spears and a whole slew of other things that you hardly see on the table. Though they have the ability to perform either role, you hardly see anyone take combat oriented Eldar units. Is that because of a lack of assault transport, the fact that their shooty units are better, the current edition we play or a combination of all 3?

If they're looking for an army where every squad has potential in either then it's Marines. As much as I'd love my beloved Templars to top the Marines list on this front, it really has to be the Wolves for the reasons I mentioned before. Though I will throw Templars out there as I brought it up. Their basic troops can be armed with long ranged weapons (Lascannons, Plasma Cannons, Grav-cannons, Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters) or a hidden power weapon/fist. They also get access to the usual Marine special weapons and can swap their bolters out for CC weapons giving them the extra attack in combat. They really don't have to rely on taking devs like the Wolves do because their basic squads can do everything already, and need half the guys regular marines do in order to take the heavy weapon. They also have the ability to bolster their squads cheaply in numbers through Neophytes which come with typical Scout weaponry (except sniper rifles and heavy weapons). They also get Counter Attack and Rage under certain circumstances, though I would love to have Accept All Challenges back from the last codex in addition... Where the Wolves come ahead on this one is they get access to both pistols, bolters and CC weapons so don't have to pick and choose, get more special weapons in their squads and get Counter Attack under all circumstances.

Merellin
30-10-2015, 20:07
I do actualy have Space wolves and enjoy them quite a bit^^ I just.. Dont realy know what I should do with them.. I kind of wanna expand them, But dont know what to get for them.. And I cant decide how to paint them..

AngryAngel
30-10-2015, 20:21
Marines, in all honesty this is exactly how they are designed to be. Workable at both, but not the best at either. Goes with their middle of their jack of all trades set up. Which also leads to why people consider them to be a good starting army. You get a taste of about all the game has to offer, without being forced one way or another. While also having no real weakness to exploit other then being middle of the road with their capability.

insectum7
30-10-2015, 22:04
And I cant decide how to paint them..

Well, as long as you don't paint them exactly like Space Wolves your options are wide open. :)

But I feel for you, coming up with a scheme you think you're going to stick with for years on end is a difficult task.

Merellin
30-10-2015, 22:06
I'm realy realy bad at thinking of color combinations and color schemes.. I am horrible at telling what looks good together.. I'v been thinking of maybe painting them dark grey, But I'm unsure what colors to use for it (I try to use GW paints)

insectum7
30-10-2015, 22:12
I used to have a marine army painted in Codex Grey, I was really pleased with it.

My current army's white, but painting white Space Marines isn't for the lighthearted. It's a chore.

Herkamer63
30-10-2015, 22:14
Eldar..Oh wait you mean actually balanced instead of cheesed out. I'm sorry. Marines, and I would say any of them.

Marshal
30-10-2015, 22:58
I do actualy have Space wolves and enjoy them quite a bit^^ I just.. Dont realy know what I should do with them.. I kind of wanna expand them, But dont know what to get for them.. And I cant decide how to paint them..

You can never go wrong with Drop Pod spam... Everything that can take a pod, in a pod. Do 6 units of Grey Hunters, half with 2 melta, half with 2 plamsa, each in a pod with a Wolf Guard with combi- matching their unit load out, all with bolter/pistol/cc weapon. That brings you up to 1428 (if math in my head works), so it leaves you a hefty amount of points to get a kitted out wolf lord with wolf guard squad in a pod also.

Scammel
30-10-2015, 23:21
Quite surprised no-one has mentioned Orks. Their combat capabilities are obvious, but some of their best performing units of the past two books have packed a punch at range.

Vipoid
31-10-2015, 00:16
Dark Eldar - we're equally bad at both. :p


More seriously, what about Necrons? Between Wraiths, Lychguard, Flayed Ones and Praetorians, they have a good range of melee units. And, they can also bring some good shooting to the table. They're also fortunate in that they have a good range of melee units (as opposed to many races - which have about 5 melee units all competing for the exact same role). You have Wraiths (Very Fast, mediocre damage output, insanely durable), Praetorians (Fast, good damage output, decent guns, moderately durable), Warscythe Lychguard (slow, excellent damage output, very durable), Shield Lychguard (slow, mediocre damage output, insanely durable), Flayed Ones (slow, high volume damage output, not very durable, very cheap). You get the idea. The only thing that lets them down is that, with the Destroyer Lord now a Jet unit, they don't have any character who can accompany Wraiths or Praetorians, without slowing them down.

ChaosTicket
31-10-2015, 00:45
I dont think any army is actually balanced. Most armies dont make units good at both, but rather specialists bad at one but good at the other. Space Marines are mainly a shooty army. The space Wolves variant loses alot of firepower for some better close combat ability.

Its rare to even see and all-round combat unit. The Space Wolves Grey hunters are the cloest thing to an all-rounded you will get, but the rest of the Space Wolves is mostly melee.

WLBjork
01-11-2015, 06:45
Quite surprised no-one has mentioned Orks. Their combat capabilities are obvious, but some of their best performing units of the past two books have packed a punch at range.

BS2 limits their shooting capabilities though.

2nd edition Orks, especially with their crazy stuff on the other hand...

Scammel
01-11-2015, 20:59
BS2 limits their shooting capabilities though.

Eh, not really. Big Gunz pack BS3 and are so cheap you can grab a good handful of them, Lootas effectively tote Autocannons for less than a Space Marine, Dakkaguns are high-volume and twin-linked, etc etc ad infinitum. Low-volume, high-reliability is so Imperial.

murgel2006
01-11-2015, 21:32
lol :D

Eldar are fantastic at everything, just not at the same time though so I guess it depends on what the OP wants. If they are looking for an army that's fantastic at ranged combat and also fantastic at melee but don't care if it's an either/or scenario, in which case, Eldar top the list. Each unit is completely specialized in the fact that they are either fantastic at shooting, or fantastic at melee but fall to pieces if required to perform the other role (insert Wraithknight exception here, stompy stompy...). For shooting, Eldar have Windriders, Dark Reapers, Guardians, Swooping Hawks, Warwalkers, Vypers, Falcons, Fire Prisms... For melee, Eldar have Scorpions, Banshees, Storm Guardians, Shining Spears and a whole slew of other things that you hardly see on the table. Though they have the ability to perform either role, you hardly see anyone take combat oriented Eldar units. Is that because of a lack of assault transport, the fact that their shooty units are better, the current edition we play or a combination of all 3?

If they're looking for an army where every squad has potential in either then it's Marines. As much as I'd love my beloved Templars to top the Marines list on this front, it really has to be the Wolves for the reasons I mentioned before. Though I will throw Templars out there as I brought it up. Their basic troops can be armed with long ranged weapons (Lascannons, Plasma Cannons, Grav-cannons, Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters) or a hidden power weapon/fist. They also get access to the usual Marine special weapons and can swap their bolters out for CC weapons giving them the extra attack in combat. They really don't have to rely on taking devs like the Wolves do because their basic squads can do everything already, and need half the guys regular marines do in order to take the heavy weapon. They also have the ability to bolster their squads cheaply in numbers through Neophytes which come with typical Scout weaponry (except sniper rifles and heavy weapons). They also get Counter Attack and Rage under certain circumstances, though I would love to have Accept All Challenges back from the last codex in addition... Where the Wolves come ahead on this one is they get access to both pistols, bolters and CC weapons so don't have to pick and choose, get more special weapons in their squads and get Counter Attack under all circumstances.

I agree to both points over all. Marines are the jack-of-all-trades generally but there are Grey hunters who really do all things rather well.
Eldar can really shine but do not have really rounded units. However I give it that the current incarnation is far less hard to handle as former incarnations have been. Nice for beginners that Eldar players may now also make a mistake or two in a game.


Eldar..Oh wait you mean actually balanced instead of cheesed out. ...

*yawn* another "pointed comment" against Eldar.
Does that not get boring? It has been established as general consensus that the OP part of the Eldar Codex is the player making the list not the codex in itself.

agurus1
02-11-2015, 05:00
If you don't mind looking at FW, their Mechanicum army for 30k is potent in shooting and combat phases. Lots of long range high strength and low ap weapons, and a plethora of abilities that negate cover make them a huge threat in the shooting phase, and most of their best units are supremely tough monsterous creatures or mobile multi wound models which makes them hard to remove from return fire. Is close combats most units are either monsteous creatures with AP2 attacks and can be upgrades to be S10 or rending, and can deal a ton of damage if used right.

Episkey
02-11-2015, 06:56
I would say Space Wolves or Grey Knight.

And thirdly, CSM. But the problem of a CSM army is the point cost to achieve these things.
To a fair price, SW and GK may do both. CSM can't


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

Karhedron
02-11-2015, 13:42
Though they have the ability to perform either role, you hardly see anyone take combat oriented Eldar units. Is that because of a lack of assault transport, the fact that their shooty units are better, the current edition we play or a combination of all 3?

I would say it is a combination of all 3. It is the lack of assault transport that makes our assault specialists hard to get working. Banshees are fragile on foot. Shining Spears and Jetlock councils get around this to some extent but the high cost per model puts some people off. Given the cost and finesse required to use, it makes shooty units seem simpler and more cost-effective.

Having said that, Scorpions really are rather good in 7th edition although I suspect people have not quite caught up with this to some extent. Banshees really require a combination of a Warhost (for a guaranteed 6" run move) and an Avatar (for Fearless + FC) or Jain Zar (for Fearless and extra move) to pull off.

Saunders
02-11-2015, 19:01
Eldar are fantastic at everything, just not at the same time though so I guess it depends on what the OP wants. If they are looking for an army that's fantastic at ranged combat and also fantastic at melee but don't care if it's an either/or scenario, in which case, Eldar top the list.

Craftworld Eldar are more heavily skewed towards close-range shooting these days. Their assault options suffer from a general frailty and lack of punch (excluding the Wraithknight here, which can exchange its heavy weaponry for a D-Sword but is generally feared more for its ranged weaponry), specifically a lack of 2+ armor saves and AP2 weapons in combat. In my mind they're a reflection of the Space Wolves, who have decent shooting but their assault capabilities are so top-tier that it's often forgotten.

Chaos Space Marines are a pretty good example of a jack-of-all-trades army with shooting versus assault. They can bring respectable amounts of both to the table, but aren't going to out-do more role-focused armies in either respect.

Dark Angels are another good example, especially with their current codex. Don't they all get bonuses to overwatch? That would strike me as an army with good firepower that is comfortable with getting assaulted.

gwarsh41
02-11-2015, 19:32
I have to agree with Vipoid on this one. Unit to unit, SW GH take the cake, they are good at everything. Army wide though, Necrons are in charge of balance. SW lack good dedicated shooting, arguably they have 2 solid units. TWC, and GH. Necrons however, have great shooting units and great melee units.

Necrons may have the best army balance in the game. Take away the decurion, and you still have a very good army. It isn't from having anything obscure, or some crazy abilities, just that they have lots of quality units that are good at what they do. The only thing the codex lacks is psykers.

Scammel
02-11-2015, 19:44
I have to agree with Vipoid on this one. Unit to unit, SW GH take the cake, they are good at everything.

If we're talking purely about a single, ppm-still-within-the-realms-of-sanity infantry unit, I'd probably give the crown to Plague Marines.

Episkey
03-11-2015, 07:14
Too expansive


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

dougch
03-11-2015, 07:26
i find few weaknesses outside of no psyker help in the heretics and renegades lists.doing everything astra does but cheaper seems really good to me. and chaos spawn are baller units that cost 5 and a half hunter killer missiles.

shabbadoo
03-11-2015, 08:04
Imperial Marines, Chaos Marines, Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Tyranids can all put together armies which are well balanced between shooting and close combat units. That is for general games. If you start saying things like, "Yeah, but which one of those would be best against X?" then answers will vary the more specific "X" becomes.

williamsond
03-11-2015, 10:40
nids are very good at assault and they don't shoot too bad either.

gwarsh41
03-11-2015, 15:28
i find few weaknesses outside of no psyker help in the heretics and renegades lists.doing everything astra does but cheaper seems really good to me. and chaos spawn are baller units that cost 5 and a half hunter killer missiles.

R&H are a blast, can't deny that, however they don't really have good internal balance when it comes to ranged/melee. They have some OK melee units like their spawn and marauders. They also have what is arguably the best point for point tarpit in the game. 3pt for a fearless FnP+4 model? However their shooting waaaaay outclasses their melee.

The lack of psykers is hardly a big issue. You are battle brothers with daemons and CSM. Divination boost R&H through the roof. Try a daemon detachment with an ML2 herald +portal glyph and +11 pink horrors. Or bring a balestar sorcerer from crimson slaughter and put him with some reaper autocannon batteries.

A.T.
03-11-2015, 15:57
R&H are a blast, can't deny that, however they don't really have good internal balanceI'd wonder how long the krieg from the same book would last against them, given R&H abundance of incredibly cheap artillery - they have a lot of dakka.

Kieras
03-11-2015, 19:08
GK termie and Land Raider spam is balanced. And easy to paint due to colours and low model count.

jeffersonian000
04-11-2015, 21:34
Imperial Knights have the best balance between range and melee, all in the same model!

SJ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dougch
05-11-2015, 08:22
artillery is so cheap that i run assault and shooty in the same lists with em. i try to make sure i got a 2x pair of medusa siege guns with 3-6 rapier laser destroyers. then ill run some blood slaughters and chaos spawn to gunk crap up in combat and use ordnance tyrant to shoot my str8 ap3 ino combat with things. just beat a 5x castigator list with em yesterday. feels good to take out knights