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Drakkar du Chaos
02-11-2015, 13:48
Worst/laziest release ever done by GW ?

- No new models.
- They are in the "daemons" category. Yes you can cry if you want.
- Seraphon = furry porn.
- And there is no new models.
- Celestite. Celestite everywhere.
- Saurus on round base looks awful.
- Tau bundle is the first item on GW's front page. Not them.
- You still want new models ? NO.

That kind of release will boost AoS's sales for sure.
Dwarfs next ?

Deadhorse
02-11-2015, 13:59
Recycled minis with awful, awkward lore.

Just one of the many of the "great thing to come" for AoS.

Katastrophe
02-11-2015, 14:03
Must have item for new Liza ... Seraphon player so they have all the lore, cool scenarios and a painting guide.

If I were a Seraphon player I'd run right out and buy it.

Says no one, ever.

stroller
02-11-2015, 14:36
Worst/laziest release ever done by GW ? Maybe. Maybe not.

No new models: Depends on your point of view I guess. No new models doesn't bother me. I LIKE new shiny toys, but I like being able to carry on using the old stuff too. I have a sneaking suspicion that new models may well follow, as with other staggered releases. I have absolutely no evidence to support that last statement in terms of weight of authority.

They are in the "daemons" category. Yes you can cry if you want. Why would this make any difference to sales?

Seraphon = furry porn. If you say so. I see feathers and reptilian skin though.

And there is no new models. As above.

Celestite. Celestite everywhere. Here, I suspect you know something I don't. I'll guess that the book uses the word a lot, like the Chaos Murder Murderson with his murderous murder axe of murdering. However, I can't see myself going in to store and saying "Aw shucks, if only it didn't have Celestite. I'd have bought 200...."

Saurus on round base looks awful. Now here we DO disagree. I like it.

Tau bundle is the first item on GW's front page. Not them. Do you think being on slide 1 is going to make a sales difference? On the other hand, which do you think they are going to sell more of no matter how big the sales push? Low hanging fruit and all that....

You still want new models ? NO. As above. Yes, shiny new toys would be nice., and could boost sales. On the other hand, I also remember complaints the other way, too. On the third time of asking, this one DOES have sales traction effects.

That kind of release will boost AoS's sales for sure.
Dwarfs next ?

Spiney Norman
02-11-2015, 14:52
Worst/laziest release ever done by GW ?

- No new models.

This isn't the first time they've done this you know, several 40k armies got their 7th edition army book with either no models at all (Grey Knights) or with one single character blister (dark Angels). If a model range is as good as the Lizardmen range currently is I don't really see why it needs a ground-up remodel, and frankly as a long time Lizardmen player I'm glad to see that all the models I own made the jump into the new setting and new game, especially as there was a whole bunch of fear-mongering over the last six months that claimed they were being squatted completely.



- They are in the "daemons" category. Yes you can cry if you want.
- Seraphon = furry porn.

Errrr what, you've kind of lost me, it always seemed kind of messed up that the forces of order didn't have a mirror for the daemons of chaos, in my view as someone who absolutely loved the Lizardmen in wfb it gives them a much more defined role than they've ever had before, rather than just being random bipedal crocodiles who only ever fight if someone comes to them.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim Lizardmen models were pornographic before, that's certainly a new one


- Celestite. Celestite everywhere.

Ummm, are you actually objecting that the in-universe weapons of a warhammer faction are all made from the same material??? Isn't that a bit like complaining that the Empire made its swords from steel and it's spears from steel and it's halberds from steel? How boring and lazy of them not to invent a new alloy for every different type of weapon they use, "Steel, steel everywhere and not a drop to drink!" If a certain material works for swords, it probably works equally well for spears and halberd as well ;)

Celestite actually is a real substance you know ;) at least their weapons aren't made from sigmarite.


- Saurus on round base looks awful.

That's kind of a matter of personal taste, personally I think most models look much better on circular/oval bases, but you're of course free to disagree.


- Tau bundle is the first item on GW's front page. Not them.
Really? Anyone would think 40k outsells AoS or something, I mean surely they'd give the more prominent spot to the better selling game right?

Jind_Singh
02-11-2015, 15:21
My two bits...

1) Initial start up cost for AoS is going to be BIG

2) Most releases for the initial phase are planned a looooong time ago, company has no sales data at that point

3) Money crunchers will dictate the policy - start hard, also it down, allow sales to generate income for the next big cash investment

So we get:

- starter set, new army, plus many models for an existing army, as well as books and lots of buildings, a realm of battle board too

Looooots of money spent

Now they need a way to continue pushing out releases but without spending a crap ton of cash

Let's see what races/model range convert over to AoS with basic re packing

- Lizardmen
- Dameons (already on rounds)
- Skaven potentially
- Treekin (done with 1st wave)
- Greenskins
- Ogres

Some of the above are bloated ranges that can get chopped down at their relaunch - eg several lizard men models vanished upon relaunch, so that lowers inventory holding costs and what not

by the time they review those types of races we have produced updated books & lore for a decent chunk of armies and fleshed out the game system from just 4 factions to 9

THEN you could expect a new full scale army release (OR MAYBE SPACE OUT NEW ARMIES IN BETWEEN RE-LAUNCHES)

That's my way of thinking over the situation

Personally I'm worried for the future of the system as while I'm a fan, I'm also a realist

It's not selling well, while I've bought a new Stormcast army, most of the books, and novels, I'm an isolated outlier within the community - a few other gamers are with me but enmasse it's not gaining traction

That is a topic for another day on how I think the launch could have been handled but there you go

Khastarax
02-11-2015, 15:24
I'm just wondering why Seraphon first after Khorne and Sigmarines... I expect because they need it to bring the fluff in a certain way that it makes sense in a way? Or would they need more time ór a better window of opportunity (Christmas?) to launch a line with a whole new aesthetic?

I like the current LM range though, no need to spend the scarce resources on redoing the LM line IMHO...

Spiney Norman
02-11-2015, 15:31
Let's see what races/model range convert over to AoS with basic re packing

- Lizardmen
- Dameons (already on rounds)
- Skaven potentially
- Treekin (done with 1st wave)
- Greenskins
- Ogres

To be honest I think you can add Vampire counts/undead to that list as well, as sad as it makes me I somehow doubt tomb kings are going to find a place in the brave new world and with a few minor exceptions (bats and the coach) the VC range is a top-notch undead army. I guess they could maybe slot some of the newer TK kits (sphinxes maybe), but I doubt the undead are going to get a complete remodel because it's just not necessary.

In fact, other than aelfs and duardin, who seem to have altered from their previous incarnations quite drastically, I don't think any of the other forces will get major updates as they move into the AoS arena, I suppose the other chaos gods will get their warrior range remodelled along the same lines as the Khorne bloodbound.


Personally I'm worried for the future of the system as while I'm a fan, I'm also a realist

It's not selling well, while I've bought a new Stormcast army, most of the books, and novels, I'm an isolated outlier within the community - a few other gamers are with me but enmasse it's not gaining traction

That is a topic for another day on how I think the launch could have been handled but there you go

I think that's fair to say for me too, I think GW badly misjudged one vital component of the popularity of space marines when creating the stormcast eternals - they're in space! 40k has always been more popular than fantasy precisely because it's a sci-if setting rather than a generic fantasy one, porting an army concept over to another game is not necessarily going to work if the reason for that factions popularity is rooted in the game setting.

Arkon
02-11-2015, 15:34
...I expect because they need it to bring the fluff in a certain way that it makes sense in a way?...

Regarding End Times and the AoS-fluff I know so far, I doubt they care about sense in their fluff anymore.

Voss
02-11-2015, 16:38
Worst/laziest release ever done by GW ?

- No new models.
Last Grey knights release too.



Seraphon = furry porn. If you say so. I see feathers and reptilian skin though.
Subfetish category: scaly.

EagleWarrior
02-11-2015, 16:41
My Lizardmen will be staying on their square bases and sticking to the steaming jungles of Lustria. To hell with 'Seraphon'.

Tyranno1
02-11-2015, 17:09
I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim Lizardmen models were pornographic before, that's certainly a new one

Just google the word Seraphon (and go to images).

But be warned, it gets weird.fast.

ewar
02-11-2015, 17:29
This isn't the first time they've done this you know, several 40k armies got their 7th edition army book with either no models at all (Grey Knights) or with one single character blister (dark Angels). If a model range is as good as the Lizardmen range currently is I don't really see why it needs a ground-up remodel, and frankly as a long time Lizardmen player I'm glad to see that all the models I own made the jump into the new setting and new game, especially as there was a whole bunch of fear-mongering over the last six months that claimed they were being squatted completely.

Have you seen some of the relaunch prices!? The salamander is a terrible model and it is now £18.50! Mental.



Errrr what, you've kind of lost me, it always seemed kind of messed up that the forces of order didn't have a mirror for the daemons of chaos, in my view as someone who absolutely loved the Lizardmen in wfb it gives them a much more defined role than they've ever had before, rather than just being random bipedal crocodiles who only ever fight if someone comes to them.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim Lizardmen models were pornographic before, that's certainly a new one

I think the issue is that they are lizardmen in SPACE. Also, someone at GW didn't do their homework and if you google seraphon you'll find that it's a *********** weird furry porn thing. And no, I didn't know that before this release :)


Ummm, are you actually objecting that the in-universe weapons of a warhammer faction are all made from the same material???

Did you see that they're from SPACE where SPACE things are. All their stuff is made from SPACE metal.


That's kind of a matter of personal taste, personally I think most models look much better on circular/oval bases, but you're of course free to disagree.

Agree that single models look better on rounds - however the bulk of WFB minis were designed to be ranked up. Saurus clutching their shields close and spears bolt upright look idiotic spread out on rounds IMO. A mini needs to be on a base it was designed for. Same with TK Tomb Guard. In a block they look awesome, with all their halberds and shields close together - in a skirmish formation? Not so much.


Really? Anyone would think 40k outsells AoS or something, I mean surely they'd give the more prominent spot to the better selling game

Presumably they want AoS to sell as much, so giving it second billing isn't really aiming too high.

Also, SPACE... in a fantasy setting. Colour me unimpressed! :cries:

75hastings69
02-11-2015, 17:37
In fact, other than aelfs and duardin, who seem to have altered from their previous incarnations quite drastically

How do we know that the aesthetic and indeed models have changed? are there pictures of them? descriptions of their appearance? anything that confirms they are different to the existing kits? I'm not convinced that they will be far removed from the existing kits at all, I do not believe GW will retire the most recently produced kits for dwarves and elves and as such I expect any "new" stuff will be very similar. Of course I could be wrong and they might be 2 brand new armies. Guess time will tell eh.

Spiney Norman
02-11-2015, 17:41
How do we know that the aesthetic and indeed models have changed? are there pictures of them? descriptions of their appearance? anything that confirms they are different to the existing kits? I'm not convinced that they will be far removed from the existing kits at all, I do not believe GW will retire the most recently produced kits for dwarves and elves and as such I expect any "new" stuff will be very similar. Of course I could be wrong and they might be 2 brand new armies. Guess time will tell eh.

The descriptions we've had so far of duardin make them sound very different in character to the existing warhammer dwarfs, I'm expecting the most recent round of kits to stay (gyros, iron breakers & hammers) but I'm also expecting a lot of new kits that move them towards the new character style of the army in AoS.

Aelfs are tricky because in warhammer they existed in three different flavours that were aesthetically all very different, in AoS they've so far been presented as a unified whole. The dark and wood elf kits are obviously the newest, but even if they do write off the HE range en-mass that still leaves you with two greatly conflicting visual styles for the same army so it will be interesting to see how they solve that.

Basically I think all the armies with the exception of elves and dwarfs could easily transition over the AoS without any new models at all, although I expect we'll see some.

StealthKnightSteg
02-11-2015, 17:51
The descriptions we've had so far of duardin make them sound very different in character to the existing warhammer dwarfs, I'm expecting the most recent round of kits to stay (gyros, iron breakers & hammers) but I'm also expecting a lot of new kits that move them towards the new character style of the army in AoS.

Aelfs are tricky because in warhammer they existed in three different flavours that were aesthetically all very different, in AoS they've so far been presented as a unified whole. The dark and wood elf kits are obviously the newest, but even if they do write off the HE range en-mass that still leaves you with two greatly conflicting visual styles for the same army so it will be interesting to see how they solve that.

Basically I think all the armies with the exception of elves and dwarfs could easily transition over the AoS without any new models at all, although I expect we'll see some.

I think you missed the Free Peoples, transition from The Empire and Bretonnia, as the Free People only got saved in Azyr and been slaughtered wholesale in the other realms I'm not expecting much of the more "advanced models" like the steam tank and the Hurricanum / Luminark.

Dosiere
02-11-2015, 18:03
If GW has some cool new models/factions in store for the holidays they really should just start marketing them now, even if the release is a month or two off or even in January.

Dosiere
02-11-2015, 18:06
I think you missed the Free Peoples, transition from The Empire and Bretonnia, as the Free People only got saved in Azyr and been slaughtered wholesale in the other realms I'm not expecting much of the more "advanced models" like the steam tank and the Hurricanum / Luminark.

Funny I envisioned the exact opposite. The crazy magical stuff might make MORE sense for the humans that have been protected in the Celestial realm for hundreds or thousands of years, while the gritty HRE feeling of the Empire models makes almost no sense at all. Almost the entire Bretonnian range is the same.

Deus_Vult
02-11-2015, 18:27
I may be alone in this but I really enjoyed the reimagining of the Seraphon/Lizardmen lore. I really want to start a small seraphon force to fight beside my stormcast eternals now but since I already have 6 AoS armies I should pace myself :P

Slann summoning in more troops to the battlefield is genius and makes the Slann more important than ever.

daveNYC
02-11-2015, 18:38
I may be alone in this but I really enjoyed the reimagining of the Seraphon/Lizardmen lore. I really want to start a small seraphon force to fight beside my stormcast eternals now but since I already have 6 AoS armies I should pace myself :P

Slann summoning in more troops to the battlefield is genius and makes the Slann more important than ever.

I'm not sure I'd say it's genius. Summoning is one of the more rage inducing areas of the AoS rules.

Deadhorse
02-11-2015, 19:05
GW release is a repack of old models + price increase with mismatched fluff. Something like Teutonic knights flying spitfires over WWII Britain. On horses!

Some people still love it.

Go figure.

akai
02-11-2015, 19:14
Also, SPACE... in a fantasy setting. Colour me unimpressed! :cries:

If I remember correctly the origin of Lizardmen in the old world setting are that they are the creations from the Old Ones. All fluff points that the Old Ones are from outer space. I do agree in a fantasy setting it seems...out of place. With all the different mortal realms , a celestial realm, and a chaos realm the outer space stuff is somewhat less out of place, I guess, in Age of Sigmar.

From GW What's New Today:

"Battletome: Seraphon delves into the background of the Seraphon and the enigmatic Slann, telling of their failure to defend the world-that-was, their journey across the void, and their arrival in the Mortal Realms where they conduct their never-ending war against the followers of Chaos. No longer mortal creatures, but beings of celestial energy, the Seraphon can appear anywhere, at any time, ever-vengeful and unrelenting in their savagery. They will see order restored to the Mortal Realms or face destruction in the process."

I have not finished Thanquol and Archaeon End Time Books...but if I have to make a guess. The remnant of the Lizardmen traveled through the void and found their creators, the Old Ones. The Old Ones reforged them (deja vu Stormcast Eternals :P) into Celestial Daemons creatures in contrast to the Chaos Daemons.

The only positive thing I can think about the "Seraphon" repackaging is that it appears GW will likely keep most of the plastic/resin products from classic Fantasy to be purchasable in the future. I can likely complete or flesh out my classic Warhammer armies in the many years to come. It would have been nice that GW provide square/rectangle bases as options in the packaging.

ewar
02-11-2015, 19:16
Slann summoning in more troops to the battlefield is genius

What kind of genius are we talking about? :shifty:

Imagine a spectrum:

Einstein/Darwin/etc <--------------------------------------------------------------------->lolcatz/that video of a big crane falling into the sea while lifting another crane who did exactly the same

I shall name this the 'ewar retardation continuum', as a guide, 2nd edition 40k sits somewhere close to the left and 'Seraphon' are leaning somewhat to the right. Out of tact, I won't say how far :)

ewar
02-11-2015, 19:25
If I remember correctly the origin of Lizardmen in the old world setting are that they are the creations from the Old Ones. All fluff points that the Old Ones are from outer space. I do agree in a fantasy setting it seems...out of place. With all the different mortal realms , a celestial realm, and a chaos realm the outer space stuff is somewhat less out of place, I guess, in Age of Sigmar.

From GW What's New Today:

"Battletome: Seraphon delves into the background of the Seraphon and the enigmatic Slann, telling of their failure to defend the world-that-was, their journey across the void, and their arrival in the Mortal Realms where they conduct their never-ending war against the followers of Chaos. No longer mortal creatures, but beings of celestial energy, the Seraphon can appear anywhere, at any time, ever-vengeful and unrelenting in their savagery. They will see order restored to the Mortal Realms or face destruction in the process."

I have not finished Thanquol and Archaeon End Time Books...but if I have to make a guess. The remnant of the Lizardmen traveled through the void and found their creators, the Old Ones. The Old Ones reforged them (deja vu Stormcast Eternals :P) into Celestial Daemons creatures in contrast to the Chaos Daemons.

The only positive thing I can think about the "Seraphon" repackaging is that it appears GW will likely keep most of the plastic/resin products from classic Fantasy to be purchasable in the future. I can likely complete or flesh out my classic Warhammer armies in the many years to come. It would have been nice that GW provide square/rectangle bases as options in the packaging.

OK, can you explain to me how a void works when the 'realms' are apparently infinite planes of existence? Not globes or worlds in space (as far as my understanding of AOS goes). For them to be space faring, how do they travel between realms?

What happened to them to become celestial, celestite wielding space dinos? Hmmm... I'd imagine an exothermic species suffers in space, their ships must be really muggy inside with the heat turned up like that.

For me (as a long time LM player), one of the things most attractive was the great back story about the Old Ones (totally mythological, almost no details) and how the LM had no comprehension of their creators technology. The palanquins etc were effectively magical (and may actually have been powered by the winds of magic, who knows). But at least they weren't cruising around the solar system in space pyramids, battling Chaos Marines and the Tau.

I think I will just have to chalk up this abomination of background as yet another wound in the death of a thousand cuts that GW is inflicting on me with every AoS release. :D :cries:

Darth Alec
02-11-2015, 19:35
I'm looking forward to reading the new fluff. All the AoS fluff sounds terrible when all you have is soundbites. It's like the Khaine debacle all over again.

Not that the AoS stuff is brilliant or terribly well written. But having a progressing storyline is quite fun, and some of the Stormcast actually manage to have personalities in the books.

I just hope the Lizardmen are more connected to the world at large this time. Them doing essentially nothing but sit in the jungle for 8000 years was a major bummer for me in the old fluff. Never mind the "we saved the world by manipulating stuff nobody else knows about" trope either. That was just lame.

ewar
02-11-2015, 19:37
some of the Stormcast actually manage to have personalities in the books.


With praise like this, who needs critics :)

akai
02-11-2015, 19:44
Ewar - they travel by Gateways? I always thought the "baleful realmgats" in AoS was somewhat similar related things as the gateways in the Lizardmen background story. I'm still catching up on the fluff reading, but I assume a stretch of one's imagination that the Age of Sigmar setting is somewhat like the Dungeons and Dragons multi-verse setting.


For me (as a long time LM player), one of the things most attractive was the great back story about the Old Ones (totally mythological, almost no details) and how the LM had no comprehension of their creators technology. The palanquins etc were effectively magical (and may actually have been powered by the winds of magic, who knows). But at least they weren't cruising around the solar system in space pyramids, battling Chaos Marines and the Tau.

I dug out my Lizardmen book from 8th Edition, on page 7 - "The Coming of the Old Ones"

"Into this brutal age came a mysterious race of god-like beings that plied the heavens in silvered ships. These strangers, known as the Old Ones, came from beyond the stars where they ruled an empire that spanned not just the cosmos, but time itself..."

"...each world in the Old Ones' empire was linked by a gateway. Some wehere small portals, allowing an individual to travel inconceivable distances with but a single step. Others, often situated in the cold void of space, where portals so large that vessels the size of moons could pass through. In their travels across the endless expanse of the universe, one planet caught their eye. for they saw in it a unique and boundless potential."

Was the Lizardmen always "good" in Warhammer Fantasy setting? I started with 5th edition and I had the perception of them being evil and were south of the Empire (not living in Lustria).

Drakkar du Chaos
02-11-2015, 19:44
OK, can you explain to me how a void works when the 'realms' are apparently infinite planes of existence?

AoS "realms" are like Switzerland's cheese, there are holes in it.
You can say the same about AoS fluff in general.

Comrade Penguin
02-11-2015, 19:49
Holy crap DO NOT google "Seraphon." And I made the mistake of doing this at work haha.

I can't believe no one at GW caught this. I can imagine Lil Jimmy's parents freaking out after he puts Seraphon on his Xmas wish list.

Aseram
02-11-2015, 19:57
Since I am going to take your advice and not google it, can you provide a roundabout/clean description of what it is?

narradisall
02-11-2015, 19:59
Go on google it. Turn off safe search, google it at work. Then enjoy the talk with HR

Yrch
02-11-2015, 20:02
Thread reads like dem AoS haters are out of fuel and destperatly try to find anything to make the game look bad.

babylonia
02-11-2015, 20:06
Lizardmen players must be 'tickled pink' by this news. ;)

Comrade Penguin
02-11-2015, 20:07
I saw a bunch of furry animals being tortured, some were bloody and some were kinky. One of the first pictures is Pikachu bloody on a torture rack. Some pretty weird stuff man.

Drakkar du Chaos
02-11-2015, 20:07
Thread reads like dem AoS haters are out of fuel and destperatly try to find anything to make the game look bad.

Don't blame us for GW's lack of professionalism.

Yrch
02-11-2015, 20:13
Don't blame us for GW's lack of professionalism.

itt: GW isn't professional because round bases.

Drakkar du Chaos
02-11-2015, 20:17
itt: GW isn't professional because round bases.

Games Workshop is a premium manufacturer with premium prices. I except better.

Holier Than Thou
02-11-2015, 20:17
Thread reads like dem AoS haters are out of fuel and destperatly try to find anything to make the game look bad.

If GW keep up this level of **** up, we'll have plenty of fuel for the foreseeable. Maybe the Vampire Counts will be renamed 'The Necrophiliac Hoochy-Coos'?

Aseram
02-11-2015, 20:22
I saw a bunch of furry animals being tortured, some were bloody and some were kinky. One of the first pictures is Pikachu bloody on a torture rack. Some pretty weird stuff man.

Thanks. Mind boggling that GW didn't see any issue with using the same word as the "activity/hobby" you described. What a bone-headed foul-up. I really loved what GW did at one point but nowadays they just can't stop leaving me with a bad impression at every turn.

Zywus
02-11-2015, 20:29
While it's pretty funny that you get some weird furry bondage cartoons when you image search for seraphon I must agree that people are blowing this particular AoS issue out of proportion. It's not like it's some widely known concept.

I guess that scenario with a spooked parent could concievably happen once or twice but having sharing a name with the creator of disturbing furry porn is the least of GW's worries as pertains AoS.

Lord Damocles
02-11-2015, 20:32
While it's pretty funny that you get some weird furry bondage cartoons when you image search for seraphon I must agree that people are blowing this particular AoS issue out of proportion. It's not like it's some widely known concept.

I guess that scenario with a spooked parent could concievably happen once or twice but having sharing a name with the creator of disturbing furry porn is the least of GW's worries as pertains AoS.
I don't know if it's still as common, but a couple of years ago, Google searching 'Harlequins' with safe search turned off resulted in pictures of malformed babies.

Because words can be used for multiple purposes.

Spiney Norman
02-11-2015, 20:33
OK, can you explain to me how a void works when the 'realms' are apparently infinite planes of existence? Not globes or worlds in space (as far as my understanding of AOS goes). For them to be space faring, how do they travel between realms?

Firstly are we absolutely sure the mortal realms are all of infinite size, I mean is that anywhere actually stated? I would have thought the idea of eight infinitely sized realms all sitting next to each other would give us something of a cosmological problem before we even consider a space that is outside of all 8 of them...

Plus there is a very thematic answer to your question about traveling between realms and the void etc, A SLANN DID IT!!! They're daemonic creatures of magic after all

;)

Drakkar du Chaos
02-11-2015, 20:33
While it's pretty funny that you get some weird furry bondage cartoons when you image search for seraphon I must agree that people are blowing this particular AoS issue out of proportion. It's not like it's some widely known concept.

I guess that scenario with a spooked parent could concievably happen once or twice but having sharing a name with the creator of disturbing furry porn is the least of GW's worries as pertains AoS.

Well for GW "Seraphon" is copyright purpose so i still cant understand how they have not checked if that word was used.
Cant wait for the lawsuit.

Spiney Norman
02-11-2015, 20:42
Well for GW "Seraphon" is copyright purpose so i still cant understand how they have not checked if that word was used.
Cant wait for the lawsuit.

GW have had a character of that name for a long time (Malekith's dragon) without having any issues, I really don't think this latest development is going to attract legal attention.

Comrade Penguin
02-11-2015, 20:45
GW have had a character of that name for a long time (Malekith's dragon) without having any issues, I really don't think this latest development is going to attract legal attention.

The thing is no one would search the name of the dragon when they were trying to view/buy dark elf models. It is very likely that a parent would simply type Seraphon into the search bar and have those lovely image pop up.

Spiney Norman
02-11-2015, 20:54
The thing is no one would search the name of the dragon when they were trying to view/buy dark elf models. It is very likely that a parent would simply type Seraphon into the search bar and have those lovely image pop up.

Which while amusing, probably isn't going to get GW sued...

Zywus
02-11-2015, 21:19
The thing is no one would search the name of the dragon when they were trying to view/buy dark elf models. It is very likely that a parent would simply type Seraphon into the search bar and have those lovely image pop up.
I don't think it's likely at all that a Parent would run a google image search of seraphon. What's the scenario here that would lead up to that?

Drakkar du Chaos
02-11-2015, 21:25
I don't think it's likely at all that a Parent would run a google image search of seraphon. What's the scenario here that would lead up to that?

I dont know what kind of browser you are using but with FireFox you got 4 furry porn image with a standard search of "seraphon", you dont have to go to "google image" to see them.
And anyway as a parent if my boy is asking stuff i don't know for christmas it is very likely i am going to google it before anything.

Vazalaar
02-11-2015, 21:32
I dont know what kind of browser you are using but with FireFox you got 4 furry porn image with a standard search of "seraphon", you dont have to go to "google image" to see them.
And anyway as a parent if my boy is asking stuff i don't know for christmas it is very likely i am going to google it before anything.

I would assume that those parents are smart enough to know that their child is talking about plastic miniatures... .

Deadhorse
02-11-2015, 21:34
What's the scenario here that would lead up to that?

Not that I think it's a major issue (just funny), but CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. Here are some statements that could lead to that:

1. Daddy, help me paint my Seraphon!
2. Do you want to pick out the Seraphon box you'd like online, dear?
3. Are Seraphon supposed to be blue or green?

Zywus
02-11-2015, 21:36
I dont know what kind of browser you are using but with FireFox you got 4 furry porn image with a standard search of "seraphon", you dont have to go to "google image" to see them.
And anyway as a parent if my boy is asking stuff i don't know for christmas it is very likely i am going to google it before anything.
You're correct. I didn't realize that there were thumbnails shown when doing a regular search. (The one time I saw those accursed pictures I was doing a image search following the tip of a "friendly" warseerite :p)

Then there'll be more than a few parents that'll get to enjoy some 'interesting' pictures this Christmas. At least the other hits are game-related, so GW has that going for them at least...

Ben
02-11-2015, 22:08
Be realistic. It's more likely people looking for furry torture porn will get a bit confused why a couple of pictures of plastic lizard guys come up in their searches. One of these things is significantly more popular than the other, and it isn't Age of Sigmar.

Drakkar du Chaos
02-11-2015, 22:15
Be realistic. It's more likely people looking for furry torture porn will get a bit confused why a couple of pictures of plastic lizard guys come up in their searches. One of these things is significantly more popular than the other, and it isn't Age of Sigmar.

Ahah.
But it is very likely the guys you are talking about are from 4chan and i can tell you they have already saw a lot more disturbing lizards related things than those from GW ;)

narradisall
02-11-2015, 22:20
I imagine a GW lizard furry porn crossover will result.

I mean it's worth a chuckle, but I think it's a bit blown out of proportion. The GW setting is hardly rainbows and butterfly's.

Astraeos
02-11-2015, 23:24
Temple Guard are now £35 for a box of fifteen! That's a bit of a disgusting price raise really.

Spiney Norman
02-11-2015, 23:30
Temple Guard are now £35 for a box of fifteen! That's a bit of a disgusting price raise really.

Didn't they used to be £25 for 10? That's actually a price decrease of 17p/model

As much as people like to moan about prices, the majority of the per-model prices have been coming down or at worst staying the same with the AoS repacks. I think some of the finecast bits might've gone up slightly (maybe salamanders/razordons?), but I've tended to ignore the finecast parts of the range so they might've been that price before the repack.

Ayin
02-11-2015, 23:32
Temple Guard are now £35 for a box of fifteen! That's a bit of a disgusting price raise really.

I can't math much today, but that would seem to put them about in line with the new standard $50+ for 10 Elite Infantry.

Ayin
02-11-2015, 23:33
Temple Guard are now £35 for a box of fifteen! That's a bit of a disgusting price raise really.

I can't math much today, but that would seem to put them about in line with the new standard $50+ for 10 Elite Infantry.

akai
02-11-2015, 23:45
Didn't they used to be £25 for 10? That's actually a price decrease of 17p/model

As much as people like to moan about prices, the majority of the per-model prices have been coming down or at worst staying the same with the AoS repacks. I think some of the finecast bits might've gone up slightly (maybe salamanders/razordons?), but I've tended to ignore the finecast parts of the range so they might've been that price before the repack.

Salamanders and Razordons have gone up in price, by five US dollars. While price per model is lower for many of the plastic kits, you have to pay a higher price for the plastic kit box. For example, the skull crushers are cheaper, but you have to buy 6 in a box for $100 US dollars. Repacking or what else, if Games Workshop was actually looking to give consumers a discount, they could have just easily done 3 in a box for $50. That would have been more consumer friendly, especially for someone who don't need 6 but just 3.

Spiney Norman
02-11-2015, 23:54
Salamanders and Razordons have gone up in price, by five US dollars. While price per model is lower for many of the plastic kits, you have to pay a higher price for the plastic kit box. For example, the skull crushers are cheaper, but you have to buy 6 in a box for $100 US dollars. Repacking or what else, if Games Workshop was actually looking to give consumers a discount, they could have just easily done 3 in a box for $50. That would have been more consumer friendly, especially for someone who don't need 6 but just 3.

I'm pretty sure when I bought my salamanders they were £8 each, of course that was over 12 yrs ago ;)

Astraeos
02-11-2015, 23:55
Didn't they used to be £25 for 10? That's actually a price decrease of 17p/model

As much as people like to moan about prices, the majority of the per-model prices have been coming down or at worst staying the same with the AoS repacks. I think some of the finecast bits might've gone up slightly (maybe salamanders/razordons?), but I've tended to ignore the finecast parts of the range so they might've been that price before the repack.

I think they were that price for ten previously. I didn't realise it was technically a price decrease but it still feels shocking when I see infantry going for £30 or more.
It's why I can't bring myself round to collecting Stormcast Eternals despite not actually disliking them for the most part (I find their immortality a little overdone).

nanogasn
03-11-2015, 00:14
I'm a bit confused on the model sizes. I'm new, so forgive my ignorance if this is off base (pun intended).

I heard the new models have scaled up in size from old models.

If this is true, how are they repacking old models? Doesn't this create 2 tiers of sizing between new models and repacks?

ewar
03-11-2015, 00:19
Ewar - they travel by Gateways? I always thought the "baleful realmgats" in AoS was somewhat similar related things as the gateways in the Lizardmen background story. I'm still catching up on the fluff reading, but I assume a stretch of one's imagination that the Age of Sigmar setting is somewhat like the Dungeons and Dragons multi-verse setting.



I dug out my Lizardmen book from 8th Edition, on page 7 - "The Coming of the Old Ones"

"Into this brutal age came a mysterious race of god-like beings that plied the heavens in silvered ships. These strangers, known as the Old Ones, came from beyond the stars where they ruled an empire that spanned not just the cosmos, but time itself..."

"...each world in the Old Ones' empire was linked by a gateway. Some wehere small portals, allowing an individual to travel inconceivable distances with but a single step. Others, often situated in the cold void of space, where portals so large that vessels the size of moons could pass through. In their travels across the endless expanse of the universe, one planet caught their eye. for they saw in it a unique and boundless potential."

Was the Lizardmen always "good" in Warhammer Fantasy setting? I started with 5th edition and I had the perception of them being evil and were south of the Empire (not living in Lustria).

I'm not sure why you're quoting all the fluff on the Old Ones - it was never in dispute that they arrived by interstellar means. But after the great Catastrophe, they left for good and the Slann remained to try and follow the Great Plan. Despite being megaminds they didn't know how to use or create Old One technology, it was all just mysticism to them.

As to your question, yes they have always been beings of Order (though nothing in the Old World was truly 'good'). You're thinking of the Southlands Lizardmen, as there were significant temple cities in the 'Africa' of the Old World, who had younger spawnings of Slann. Fluffy Southlands lists were made up predominantly of skinks, and were actually pretty strong from memory...


Firstly are we absolutely sure the mortal realms are all of infinite size, I mean is that anywhere actually stated? I would have thought the idea of eight infinitely sized realms all sitting next to each other would give us something of a cosmological problem before we even consider a space that is outside of all 8 of them...

Plus there is a very thematic answer to your question about traveling between realms and the void etc, A SLANN DID IT!!! They're daemonic creatures of magic after all

;)

I have literally no idea if that is true or not :)

The AoS books are not exactly prescriptive! But seeing as the Realms seem to exist as parallel planes of existence, I can't see how you would fly from one to another through space. They're also supposed to be absolutely vast and are never described as globes. Odd I know.

But I do like your new catchphrase! When in doubt, blame the Slann. Just ask the Dwarfs...

Chikout
03-11-2015, 00:23
Repacks are the same size as before. It is the new stuff, specifically the chaos stuff that is larger than before.

I actually like the new fluff. The slann remember the other Seraphon into existence. It is a neat way of explaining why the models havent changed at all. (it reminds me of when they invented the horus heresy to make both sides the same and keep costs down in the space marine boxed game.) I still think it would have been a perfect excuse to do a plastic slann. Just that one model would have made this release a lot more exciting. I like the new paint scheme too.
I am actually tempted to start a small army, but I am waiting to see what happens to the elves and dwarves. If they prove to be uninspiring I will come back to the Seraphon.

akai
03-11-2015, 00:40
I'm pretty sure when I bought my salamanders they were £8 each, of course that was over 12 yrs ago ;)

Hmm, my bad! I bought my last month and forgot to consider discounted cost I got from my local retailer. Its at 25 cent increase only :shifty:


I'm not sure why you're quoting all the fluff on the Old Ones - it was never in dispute that they arrived by interstellar means. But after the great Catastrophe, they left for good and the Slann remained to try and follow the Great Plan. Despite being megaminds they didn't know how to use or create Old One technology, it was all just mysticism to them.

As to your question, yes they have always been beings of Order (though nothing in the Old World was truly 'good'). You're thinking of the Southlands Lizardmen, as there were significant temple cities in the 'Africa' of the Old World, who had younger spawnings of Slann. Fluffy Southlands lists were made up predominantly of skinks, and were actually pretty strong from memory...

Hmm, I guess I misinterpret what you wrote. It sounded like a lot of sarcasm about lizardmen in space fluff, but you seem to have no problem with their creators were basically lifeforms in space traveling in their silver ships fluff. I found both Fantasy and AoS official fluff on Lizardmen/Seraphon to be somewhat out of place.

mbh1127
03-11-2015, 01:03
While it's pretty funny that you get some weird furry bondage cartoons when you image search for seraphon I must agree that people are blowing this particular AoS issue out of proportion. It's not like it's some widely known concept.

I guess that scenario with a spooked parent could concievably happen once or twice but having sharing a name with the creator of disturbing furry porn is the least of GW's worries as pertains AoS.

Nobody is actually making a big deal about the word. It's just a bit funny.


AOS desperately needs a release of a new/updated race that generates interest.

Geep
03-11-2015, 02:11
I actually like the new fluff. The slann remember the other Seraphon into existence.
I'm tempted to sculpt some red hair onto a Slann and name the toad 'Amy Pond'. Even the name begs for it.

Voss
03-11-2015, 03:05
I imagine a GW lizard furry porn crossover will result.

You say that in future tense as if such things don't already exist. (Rule #34: if you can imagine something, it is already somebody's fetish)
That said, this is just (seemingly) non-consensual tickling. Of feet and hands when locked in stocks, for the most part. Not exactly the most shocking thing ever (especially compared to the already existing body of warhammer porn).

Dosiere
03-11-2015, 04:43
I'm a bit confused on the model sizes. I'm new, so forgive my ignorance if this is off base (pun intended).

I heard the new models have scaled up in size from old models.

If this is true, how are they repacking old models? Doesn't this create 2 tiers of sizing between new models and repacks?

I assume you are talking about the super heroically scaled heroic 28mm scale AoS minis. Yes they are a bit larger so far since AoS is all about individual miniatures rather than units.

It only really matters if you have either two similar models next to each other with obvious scale differences or something that is familiar to you IRL though.

For example, you probably wouldn't notice that Lizardmen are a bit small next to a Stormcast Eternal since there really is no frame of reference in your mind. Or an Orc, or a goblin.

Where you might notice it is when you put a regular human figure next to a Stormcast or one of the Chaos miniatures it can look a bit odd. It's always been a little like this with different sculptors anyway. In the Empire range for example some of the early 6th edition stuff was just larger, particularly the hands for some reason, than other stuff before and after. You can still see it in the Empire cannon/mortar box. Compared to a current state troop hand they are over twice the size sometimes! It can look weird.

The reality is that most of these small scale problems aren't very noticeable in rank n file game and only slightly more in a skirmish one.

The real test of any scale issues will come when/if GW gets around to doing regular humans and comparing them to the old ranges.

narradisall
03-11-2015, 07:18
You say that in future tense as if such things don't already exist. (Rule #34: if you can imagine something, it is already somebody's fetish)
That said, this is just (seemingly) non-consensual tickling. Of feet and hands when locked in stocks, for the most part. Not exactly the most shocking thing ever (especially compared to the already existing body of warhammer porn).

I did think about rule 34 but was unwilling to search to see if it was true....

Ben
03-11-2015, 07:53
I think they were that price for ten previously. I didn't realise it was technically a price decrease but it still feels shocking when I see infantry going for £30 or more.
It's why I can't bring myself round to collecting Stormcast Eternals despite not actually disliking them for the most part (I find their immortality a little overdone).

I remember them being £17.50 for ten. Did the price go up that much since they were released?

Ben
03-11-2015, 08:04
Hmm, my bad! I bought my last month and forgot to consider discounted cost I got from my local retailer. Its at 25 cent increase only :shifty:



Hmm, I guess I misinterpret what you wrote. It sounded like a lot of sarcasm about lizardmen in space fluff, but you seem to have no problem with their creators were basically lifeforms in space traveling in their silver ships fluff. I found both Fantasy and AoS official fluff on Lizardmen/Seraphon to be somewhat out of place.

Age of Sigmar takes place on a space station though. In one of the illustrations it shows a ring around a celestial body, which looks like Larry Niven's Ringworld from the 70s.

So Lizardmen in space fit right in with that, more Lizardmen are just beaming down from their ships.

However I don't think it has referred to the fact it all takes place on a space station anywhere in the fiction since, which is odd because you could get some ideas from that. But why are there Realm gates when everything is physically connected? Are they in addition to this? Has anyone tried going outside the hull of the station?

Drakkar du Chaos
03-11-2015, 08:21
I'm pretty sure when I bought my salamanders they were £8 each, of course that was over 12 yrs ago ;)

One salamander was already at 22$ when the old site shut down :

http://web.archive.org/web/20070209230619/http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301051&orignav=13&GameNav=13

Drakkar du Chaos
03-11-2015, 08:23
Repacks are the same size as before. It is the new stuff, specifically the chaos stuff that is larger than before.

I bought one AoS box to make a good unit of Khorne Chosen, scale comparison here (with AoW on the left) :

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/44/1446384827-20151101-141547.jpg
(http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/44/1446384827-20151101-141547.jpg)

Kherith
03-11-2015, 08:25
The space station is actually Sigmarchester, in Sigmarshire, the capital of Sigmarland. Sorry even though I like AoS it's difficult not to mock the lack of imagination shown in the names :p

I can't remember the actual Sigmar related name right now but it exists purely on the realm Azyr, the realm of heavens, hence all the planets and space and stuff.

As Lizards/Seraphon are "help from Azyr" the celestial and space references do actually fit the minimal background provided for AoS so far.

ATAC2
03-11-2015, 11:15
Nobody is actually making a big deal about the word. It's just a bit funny.


AOS desperately needs a release of a new/updated race that generates interest.

To be fair, a scenario where little Timmy asks for Seraphon for christmas seems a bit far fetched anyway ;)

Spiney Norman
03-11-2015, 11:24
The space station is actually Sigmarchester, in Sigmarshire, the capital of Sigmarland. Sorry even though I like AoS it's difficult not to mock the lack of imagination shown in the names :p

I can't remember the actual Sigmar related name right now but it exists purely on the realm Azyr, the realm of heavens, hence all the planets and space and stuff.

As Lizards/Seraphon are "help from Azyr" the celestial and space references do actually fit the minimal background provided for AoS so far.

I think it was in fact 'Sigmarheim' in the realm of 'fair Sigmaron', though I could be mistaken ;) I suppose we should be grateful they didn't decide that Sigmar was a warhammer god and used that formula instead, magical warhammers made from warhammerite in the magical city of warhammeria.

On the bright side GW aren't the only company using thoroughly uninspired names for things, isn't the KoW setting called "Mantica"? I guess we should be grateful they didn't decide to call the Mortal realms 'Gamesworkshoperonia'

akai
03-11-2015, 13:46
Age of Sigmar takes place on a space station though. In one of the illustrations it shows a ring around a celestial body, which looks like Larry Niven's Ringworld from the 70s.

So Lizardmen in space fit right in with that, more Lizardmen are just beaming down from their ships.

However I don't think it has referred to the fact it all takes place on a space station anywhere in the fiction since, which is odd because you could get some ideas from that. But why are there Realm gates when everything is physically connected? Are they in addition to this? Has anyone tried going outside the hull of the station?

Teleporting by gates is faster than traveling linearly from one place to another? The AoS realms remind me a lot of the D&D multiverse settings (the world, feywild, shadowfell, elemental chaos, astral sea, etc). In those D&D settings, traveling is a little bit of everything. One-way gateways, two-way gateways, a certain time of the year, astral ships, etc.

aprilmanha
03-11-2015, 14:54
I guess the repacks are just a way to ship out as much existing stock as possible is as few boxes as possible.

GrandmasterWang
04-11-2015, 00:50
Not the laziest release ever. The current Grey Knight Codex which was basically a copy/paste + delete a bunch of stuff job takes that 'honor'. Also had no new releases.

This Lizardmen release isn't as lazy as it contains repacks (bases) and brand new fluff.

I bought WD 92 to find about them as i like Lizardmen (8th). The WD 92 fluff for them is absolutely abysmal.... even worse than the Stormcast fluff as Stormcast were a brand new faction and 'Seraphon' are an existing beloved one.

No new models is pathetic and means there is zero chance i will pick up anything from this release.

One poster mentioned that the Space slann 'remember ' the Seraphon into existence. ... that is ok....i can accept that. WD 92 didn't say much about that but the background it did have on their realms/ weapons etc was atrocious.

So NO this isn't Games Workshops laziest release ever.... it is one of their worse though. .. absolutely useless.

I would have probably really liked some new 'space daemon lizard' kits (especially a plastic space slann with options) but with no actual new releases worth mentioning i have no reason to care about these new stupidly named lizards.

Big meh from me!

...and i am neutral to AOS and not a hater.

Poor showing by GW. Hopefully the next release is better.

All these new Stormcast and Khorne goodies and they couldn't even release a single thing for the 'Seraphon'... BLEH.

They can keep their new book, price rises and repacks....

I was actually looking forward to this release as well, curious to see what GW would come up with. Given they just changed the name and fluff of the race (badly)... what was the point?

Complete waste of time

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Deadhorse
04-11-2015, 08:52
I like the large unit repacks, though.

Game requires units of 30 guys - sell them in boxes of 10
Game changes, skirmish format now possible - change box size to 20.

That's the commercial genius that made GW the company it is today.

GrandmasterWang
04-11-2015, 09:46
I like the large unit repacks, though.

Game requires units of 30 guys - sell them in boxes of 10
Game changes, skirmish format now possible - change box size to 20.

That's the commercial genius that made GW the company it is today.
Haha well played!

There is no end to their genius!

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

vlad78
05-11-2015, 07:34
I like the large unit repacks, though.

Game requires units of 30 guys - sell them in boxes of 10
Game changes, skirmish format now possible - change box size to 20.

That's the commercial genius that made GW the company it is today.

You probably mean that's the commercial genius who made of GW the most despised miniatures company it is today.

Spiney Norman
05-11-2015, 07:41
I like the large unit repacks, though.

Game requires units of 30 guys - sell them in boxes of 10
Game changes, skirmish format now possible - change box size to 20.

That's the commercial genius that made GW the company it is today.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...

Basically I think that increasing the number of miniatures in a box IS a good idea, one of the most complained about things in wfb was that you had to buy five boxes of state troops to make one unit (as an example), by changing the rules to make smaller units viable and dropping a few extra models in each box they've made it so that one box=one unit which is a much better way to market the game (something they've been doing for a long time in 40k).

Saurus start to unlock their cohort bonuses at 20 models so that is a good starting size for a unit of them.

Soundwave
05-11-2015, 08:49
Re-packs and boxed kits have been an issue with fantasy ever since they stopped the complete plastic regiment set's of sixth edition. (20 per box with command, quite proud of the innovation at the time .)
I am just upset the option for square bases no longer exists when re-packed :(

aprilmanha
05-11-2015, 09:03
I would be rather tempted to model a unit running around with weapons replaced with shackles for half the unit and feathers for the other half :P
After all google search would not lie to me on what they are meant to look like :D

Arrahed
05-11-2015, 09:48
I would be rather tempted to model a unit running around with weapons replaced with shackles for half the unit and feathers for the other half :P
After all google search would not lie to me on what they are meant to look like :D

Another great inspiration from google: A giant enslaved Pikachu mount for your Slann covered in chains with a burning tail. Google said it totally fits the fluff.:D

EDIT: I think this should synergize well with a unit of salamanders keeping the tail burning.

Rakariel
05-11-2015, 09:58
I personally think that this is a very lazy attempt to sell AoS as a game and all in all overly counterproductive in terms of marketing strategy. I would have postponed this release and get something out that has more meat on its bones first to actually appeal to as many people as possible, be it veteran players or new blood. Don`t get me wrong, I really like LM (apart from the whole lizards from space crap - I won`t get into the abysmal fluff anymore however) but this release hardly qualifies as something that is anywhere near on a competitive level to other gaming systems, especially considering the state AoS is in at the moment.

Comparing it to other more or less recent releases like Grey Knights is sound (the practise is not new with GW). This doesn`t make the LM release anymore valid however because the aforementioned 40k release was horrible itself. A book with rehashed fluff and some points allocation at full price? No new models? Seriously? Instead they cut out half of the content and SCs they didn`t have models made for. Again, a full price codex/battletome like that will not make you any friends and in case of LM is on top of it stretching the already waning customer patience even further.

I think it wouldn`t have been too much to ask for to replace some of the very old kits (Saurus cav, Chameleons, Razordons, Salamander, Kroxigors) to actually get people excited about something. And if this isn`t possible due to whatever reason, release armies that meet those expectations first, especially since AoS is a new game. As it is at the moment, it feels more like a cheap cash-grab to sell off the rest of the LM range.

Kahadras
05-11-2015, 10:15
All these new Stormcast and Khorne goodies and they couldn't even release a single thing for the 'Seraphon'... BLEH.

I very much expect that this is ther way things are going to play out for a lot of other races for AoS. I might be wrong but the pessimistic side of me thinks that AoS is more a rebranding/range reduction excercise than a brand new world with brand new products. Basicaly they can cut the Tomb Kings, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Empire, Bretonnia and Beastmen stuff all together and cull units from other armies (goodbye Slaanesh). Hopefully they'll do something new for the Aelf and Duardin but GW already has the Elf and Dwarf stuff on their website listed as such.

At the end of the day reboxing models they've already got is cheaper than comming up with new ones. I'm expecting a lot of releases for AoS are going to be the same as this one, a new Battletome and reboxed models with round bases (a la Treekin, Clan Pestilance and Lizardman).

Arrahed
05-11-2015, 10:21
It might be on the very pessimistic side of things but GW might simply try to get the most money out of their existing molds until their are unusable and than scrap Fantasy (or at least the old factions) altogether.

Spiney Norman
05-11-2015, 11:08
Re-packs and boxed kits have been an issue with fantasy ever since they stopped the complete plastic regiment set's of sixth edition. (20 per box with command, quite proud of the innovation at the time .)
I am just upset the option for square bases no longer exists when re-packed :(

Weren't 16 man boxed sets quite common then? back when 4x4 was a pretty normal size for an infantry unit and 2x4 was your standard for cavalry. As I recall 20 was quite a big unit in 6th ed, then in 7th the more hordy units pushed up to around 30 (I remember deploying a unit of night goblins with Skarsnik in a 7x5 block early in 7th edition and people commented how massive it was), it wasn't until 8th rolled around that anyone even conceived of a single unit consisting of 50 models.

samael
05-11-2015, 11:15
, it wasn't until 8th rolled around that anyone even conceived of a single unit consisting of 50 models.

I used to run a 100 strong night goblin unit,with double handed weapons, full command, black orc big boss, banner to make them always strike first and an armybanner that gave them double rank bonus, oh an 3 fanatics. This was during the fourth edition. Good times. :D

EagleWarrior
05-11-2015, 11:39
I used to run a 100 strong night goblin unit,with double handed weapons, full command, black orc big boss, banner to make them always strike first and an armybanner that gave them double rank bonus, oh an 3 fanatics. This was during the fourth edition. Good times. :D

That sounds terrifying :D

samael
05-11-2015, 12:05
It was, I used to inform my opponents beforehand that I would use it. Put a chariot on each flank and some wolfriders behind them and it would be an absolute killer.

Soundwave
05-11-2015, 14:35
Weren't 16 man boxed sets quite common then? back when 4x4 was a pretty normal size for an infantry unit and 2x4 was your standard for cavalry. As I recall 20 was quite a big unit in 6th ed, then in 7th the more hordy units pushed up to around 30 (I remember deploying a unit of night goblins with Skarsnik in a 7x5 block early in 7th edition and people commented how massive it was), it wasn't until 8th rolled around that anyone even conceived of a single unit consisting of 50 models.
Yes I think it was 20 goblins for sure, skaven and zombies maybe empire state troops only 12 or so chaos warriors. The box sets contained a separate metal command upgrade and and wait for it ... a movement tray also.
Then I think the unit box was repackaged without the metal command pieces and no movement tray, maybe less models as well. I thought it a brilliant idea at the time and so did the design team according to the white dwarf. Though this did not last long.

Zywus
05-11-2015, 14:42
Concerning the repackaging into bigger boxes: Surely the complaints about "needing to buy 4-5 boxes for a unit" was actually a complaint about the cost of buying that many boxes, not a complaint about the amount of thin cardboard and shrinkwrap around the sprues?

If the price per model is the same I hardly see anyone caring much whether they purchase their 40 man unit in 4 boxes of 10 models or 2 boxes of 20.

Soundwave
05-11-2015, 14:48
Skull crushers actually received a price decrease. Not being familiar with lizardmen pricing, did any of the repackaged units become cheaper?

Zywus
05-11-2015, 14:53
I believe several (maybe all ?) of the units that got repackaged into larger boxes got slightly cheaper per model.
It's nice if you were getting that amount of models anyway but otherwise it's a slight inconvenience compared to the smaller boxes.

Soundwave
05-11-2015, 14:57
Bwhahahahahaha. So there has been several price decreases by the big bad games shop and no one is excited or really cares. Oh wait better check the pricing thread :).

Spiney Norman
05-11-2015, 15:06
Concerning the repackaging into bigger boxes: Surely the complaints about "needing to buy 4-5 boxes for a unit" was actually a complaint about the cost of buying that many boxes, not a complaint about the amount of thin cardboard and shrinkwrap around the sprues?

If the price per model is the same I hardly see anyone caring much whether they purchase their 40 man unit in 4 boxes of 10 models or 2 boxes of 20.

Well speaking for myself that wasn't the case at all (but then I'm someone who will quite happily buy ten resin space marines for the same cost as a unit of 50 states troops). For me the big problem with buying units of fifty models was the prospect of having to paint the damned things, I mean I struggle to paint more than ten models of a squad/unit without becoming bored of them, show me a unit of fifty and I'll be so overwhelmed by the thought of getting them done that I may well never get around to starting them.

Lars Porsenna
05-11-2015, 16:48
Well speaking for myself that wasn't the case at all (but then I'm someone who will quite happily buy ten resin space marines for the same cost as a unit of 50 states troops). For me the big problem with buying units of fifty models was the prospect of having to paint the damned things, I mean I struggle to paint more than ten models of a squad/unit without becoming bored of them, show me a unit of fifty and I'll be so overwhelmed by the thought of getting them done that I may well never get around to starting them.

Best thing to do is space them out with other things. FREX, I just finished up a box of Pink Horrors a couple days ago (well, they are in the clearcoat stage, which involves about 5min of spraying clearcoat...), and just started a 2nd box of Dwarf Warriors. Once those are done, I might crack into some HE or Eldar I still have lying around. Point is, break up the projects into smaller, easily manageable chunks, and plan it out so that you are not spending a lot of time on it...I usually work towards a goal of 1 boxed set every 2 weeks (and I still usually have time to work on a model during as well!), and this is with working 1hr a night after the kids go to bed. So I have a lot of variety to keep me from getting burned out.

Another thing that helps is that I very much work on an assembly line. "Today is Tuesday, so I'm painting red." FREX tonight with those dwarf warriors, I', going to highlight the flesh areas...and if there is time start basecoating the helmets. Tomorrow its shading the helmets and maybe highlighting (depends on how long Nuln Oil takes to dry and whether I still have time in my 1hr). Saturday, painting the leather bits, etc. I plan this all out, usually on my commute to and from work, so that when I do sit at the bench, I have an attack plan, rather than staring at 50minis wondering if I'll ever get them done...

Damon.

ewar
05-11-2015, 17:02
Bwhahahahahaha. So there has been several price decreases by the big bad games shop and no one is excited or really cares. Oh wait better check the pricing thread :).

I think the issue is that they have made a tiny per model price reduction by selling bigger boxes which are much more expensive, in conjunction with changing the rules to take away the incentive for having lots of those models. It's pretty hilarious really...

GW "Here, play AoS, the buy in is tiny, you can start with just a couple of models!"
Customer "Fantastic! I'd really like a couple of skullcrushers to complement my chaos army, how much is a couple of them?"
GW "They're only £60 for 6!"
Customer"Hmmm.... 6 seems like a lot, I'd much rather just have 2 or 3. Do you sell them in smaller packs?"
GW MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Smaller packs! Honestly, you guys just kill me, you've spent years asking for bigger packs! Ungrateful shites."

akai
05-11-2015, 17:16
I think the issue is that they have made a tiny per model price reduction by selling bigger boxes which are much more expensive, in conjunction with changing the rules to take away the incentive for having lots of those models. It's pretty hilarious really...

GW "Here, play AoS, the buy in is tiny, you can start with just a couple of models!"
Customer "Fantastic! I'd really like a couple of skullcrushers to complement my chaos army, how much is a couple of them?"
GW "They're only £60 for 6!"
Customer"Hmmm.... 6 seems like a lot, I'd much rather just have 2 or 3. Do you sell them in smaller packs?"
GW MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Smaller packs! Honestly, you guys just kill me, you've spent years asking for bigger packs! Ungrateful shites."

There are still incentive to have lots of "core infantry units." As for having 20, 30, etc for certain core infantry will have better stats. I do agree with your funny dialogue on skullcrushers example that the price reduction per model is not really beneficial to customers.

Spiney Norman
05-11-2015, 17:38
I think the issue is that they have made a tiny per model price reduction by selling bigger boxes which are much more expensive, in conjunction with changing the rules to take away the incentive for having lots of those models. It's pretty hilarious really...

GW "Here, play AoS, the buy in is tiny, you can start with just a couple of models!"
Customer "Fantastic! I'd really like a couple of skullcrushers to complement my chaos army, how much is a couple of them?"
GW "They're only £60 for 6!"
Customer"Hmmm.... 6 seems like a lot, I'd much rather just have 2 or 3. Do you sell them in smaller packs?"
GW MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Smaller packs! Honestly, you guys just kill me, you've spent years asking for bigger packs! Ungrateful shites."

Was anyone actually running monstrous cavalry in units of less than 6 in wfb anyway? I was certainly running my necropolis knights in 6s.

Folomo
05-11-2015, 17:42
I was using my NK in units of 3s, entombed, to ambush my enemies :)

Ayin
05-11-2015, 17:42
Was anyone actually running monstrous cavalry in units of less than 6 in wfb anyway? I was certainly running my necropolis knights in 6s.

Yes. People were in fact running MC units in less than 6.

Buddy Bear
05-11-2015, 17:43
I was running Demigryph Knights in 3's, as well.

Choombatta
05-11-2015, 17:49
I ran Skullcrushers in units of 3 in 8th, but Mournfang in units of 4.
Of course, now in AoS, if I want to use the Brass Stampede battalion, I only need 1 box of Skullcrushers to complete the battalion (must have 3 units of Skullcrushers).

Phunting
05-11-2015, 18:14
I really don't see what people are upset about here, it seems quite obvious what has happened. Lizardmen had a reasonably new and decent range that wasn't due a new release for a few years. GW could either a)Easily produce a new book to update them into the setting and repackage the existing range while concentrating on new models for ranges that are due an update or b)Do nothing with them for a couple of years.

If I was a Lizardman player, I know which option I'd prefer. There's plenty of things to complain about with AoS, this isn't one of them.

Philhelm
05-11-2015, 18:25
I have an attack plan, rather than staring at 50minis wondering if I'll ever get them done...

That's usually my strategy. I can't even seem to get ten Frostgrave soldiers painted. Granted, I have limited time and have just been too tired to paint in the late, late evening recently. :(

Soundwave
05-11-2015, 22:53
I think the issue is that they have made a tiny per model price reduction by selling bigger boxes which are much more expensive, in conjunction with changing the rules to take away the incentive for having lots of those models. It's pretty hilarious really...

GW "Here, play AoS, the buy in is tiny, you can start with just a couple of models!"
Customer "Fantastic! I'd really like a couple of skullcrushers to complement my chaos army, how much is a couple of them?"
GW "They're only £60 for 6!"
Customer"Hmmm.... 6 seems like a lot, I'd much rather just have 2 or 3. Do you sell them in smaller packs?"
GW MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Smaller packs! Honestly, you guys just kill me, you've spent years asking for bigger packs! Ungrateful shites."
Ok. So using your scenario Ewar it is pretty much an example why us veterans are not being catered for anymore. This is obviously aimed at new players who are starting to collect. I find it odd that the veterans are no longer considered in this new strategy of theirs.
On a side note my biggest gripe with this release is that the plastic oldblood is no longer available??? Wtf just because he has a square base that was it gone for good? Again another sign of G.W. really burying the hatchet on wfb as well as any former customer still interested in 8th edition.

Kahadras
06-11-2015, 00:46
Ok. So using your scenario Ewar it is pretty much an example why us veterans are not being catered for anymore. This is obviously aimed at new players who are starting to collect. I find it odd that the veterans are no longer considered in this new strategy of theirs.

I think that GW isn't interested in vets anymore because they've probably come to the conclusion that they don't spend as much on the hobby as somebody just getting into 40K or AoS. I assume AoS was supposed to be a 'clean break' for GW. Get rid of the accumulated lore of the Old World and create a new setting which is easier to sell and protect. It would also 'clear out' the veteran players who have already invested a lot of money in the game but weren't prepared to drop another large amount of cash. Basicaly AoS was a watershed for Fantasy players. Either they would get behind AoS and continue to financially support GW or they would walk away and, in GW's mind, they didn't want those kind of people anyway.

Kyriakin
06-11-2015, 03:49
I think that GW isn't interested in vets anymore because they've probably come to the conclusion that they don't spend as much on the hobby as somebody just getting into 40K or AoS. I assume AoS was supposed to be a 'clean break' for GW. Get rid of the accumulated lore of the Old World and create a new setting which is easier to sell and protect. It would also 'clear out' the veteran players who have already invested a lot of money in the game but weren't prepared to drop another large amount of cash. Basicaly AoS was a watershed for Fantasy players. Either they would get behind AoS and continue to financially support GW or they would walk away and, in GW's mind, they didn't want those kind of people anyway.
Except when said veterans, who are usually trendsetters within clubs and independent stores, actively influence the newbies towards other games and companies.

melonmelon
06-11-2015, 05:32
... for everyone ain't comfort with warseer, you should try Age of Sigmar thread on /tg/ 4chan, resourceful and helpful. There are sxxxposter lurking around, but we can deal with them, really nice place to talk about AoS.

Just google 4chan /tg/, mod claimed that "this is site containing offensive language". However, there are only 2 place to talk about AoS w/o "fighting" with hater, 4chan, an anon image board, and facebook.

Drakkar du Chaos
06-11-2015, 07:50
I think that GW isn't interested in vets anymore because they've probably come to the conclusion that they don't spend as much on the hobby as somebody just getting into 40K or AoS. I assume AoS was supposed to be a 'clean break' for GW. Get rid of the accumulated lore of the Old World and create a new setting which is easier to sell and protect. It would also 'clear out' the veteran players who have already invested a lot of money in the game but weren't prepared to drop another large amount of cash. Basicaly AoS was a watershed for Fantasy players. Either they would get behind AoS and continue to financially support GW or they would walk away and, in GW's mind, they didn't want those kind of people anyway.

AoS will be the very first time to know if the WHFB Vets can cripple GW financial report and if 40K is truly the one and only source of cash for GW.

Spiney Norman
06-11-2015, 08:32
AoS will be the very first time to know if the WHFB Vets can cripple GW financial report and if 40K is truly the one and only source of cash for GW.

I'm not so sure, the Horus heresy set they're releasing next weekend is going to be like printing money for GW, I know at least ten guys from my club that intend to order multiple sets and many more who will be getting just the one. I think that might just obscure any slump they've had because of the poor performance of AoS.

Herzlos
06-11-2015, 09:09
Except when said veterans, who are usually trendsetters within clubs and independent stores, actively influence the newbies towards other games and companies.

Or when they discover that the vets were actually the ones spending the money; they tend to have more of it and a lower barrier to entry.

Most companies go for the "long tail" revenue - slow consistent sales of old stuff, it's essentially no work and whilst it's not headline figures every year, over the lifetime it adds up. We've got customers still buying widgets we stopped marketing years ago, and the total revenue from them eclipses any new sales.

Most of the vets I know have a hobby budget of say, £50-100 a month and have been gaming for 10+ years. Assuming £50/month that's a hobby spend of £6000. No churn-and-burn new player is going to spend that before dropping off again.

Zywus
06-11-2015, 09:32
There is that often referenced rule of thumb that 20% of your customers generate 80% of your sales.

I wouldn't be suprised if a sizable part of those 20% were veterans of many years and losing them might deal a greater blow to sales than what their mere numbers might suggest.

UndeadKing
06-11-2015, 09:42
It's almost like GW knew that initially AoS would be getting a very mixed reaction and many would be upset/ angry/ rage quit etc and lose some money. Then boom Horus heresy plastics just in time for half year report to wash away any failing AoS would have shown. Many GW decisions are bafflingly stupid but this is pure genius, cover the initial losses by bringing out plastic heresy which people will buy in abundance and save face then next year I think is when we will see where AoS is really going as with the cash raked in for heresy to tide them over AoS can get properly sorted. Repacks to get stuff updated like lizardmen then we start seeing new stuff. Yes GW are mind bogglingly backwards but they've been around long enough to know what they're doing and this whether luck or planned GW has/will save their ass on this one

Sent from my S102 using Tapatalk

Niall78
06-11-2015, 10:03
It's almost like GW knew that initially AoS would be getting a very mixed reaction and many would be upset/ angry/ rage quit etc and lose some money. Then boom Horus heresy plastics just in time for half year report to wash away any failing AoS would have shown. Many GW decisions are bafflingly stupid but this is pure genius, cover the initial losses by bringing out plastic heresy which people will buy in abundance and save face then next year I think is when we will see where AoS is really going as with the cash raked in for heresy to tide them over AoS can get properly sorted. Repacks to get stuff updated like lizardmen then we start seeing new stuff. Yes GW are mind bogglingly backwards but they've been around long enough to know what they're doing and this whether luck or planned GW has/will save their ass on this one


Is it genius to try to cover-up the failure of AoS? I'd contend it would be competent to avoid the failure in the first place.

Why does it AoS take-off after a few years? If AoS is a failure it is a failure.Why are people going to flock back after dismissing it originally? Will it return with a bang to the tournament scene? Will veterans in independent stores and clubs reinstate it as the go-to fantasy system helping to push it to new players? Will stores even sell the system after getting burned with the starter-set? Why would players go back?

Our hobby is ageing - there aren't an unlimited pool of new players. You lose the veterans that spend thousands a year. You lose a lot of customers or fail to draw them in with the core releases. You lose the information war on the internet where your system gets panned. And you've left yourself a mountain to climb to even ensure the short-term survival of your product. There isn't a second, third or forth chance in today's market - there's already a wealth of great systems available. Most gamers today aren't going to spend hours patching an expensive product for basic play or return to a broken system a few years later in case the developer finally got the mess sorted. You get one chance - GW blew their one chance big time.

Zywus
06-11-2015, 10:15
It's almost like GW knew that initially AoS would be getting a very mixed reaction and many would be upset/ angry/ rage quit etc and lose some money. Then boom Horus heresy plastics just in time for half year report to wash away any failing AoS would have shown. Many GW decisions are bafflingly stupid but this is pure geniusOh come on. As conspiracy theories go this one isn't very well though out.

If they knew AoS would lose them money, why would they release it at all and cut in to the profits made by plastic HH?
They could have just kept WHFB going until they had enough new kits to "get AoS sorted" (whatever that would mean)

Saying that, it's not just kits that people find lacking about AoS.

In fairness, between the Sigmarines and Khornedudes as well as the terrain, they have put out quite a lot off stuff so I'd say that's not really the problem. People (in general) don't like the game and they don't like the fluff. And there is no sign of those components drastically changing anytime soon.

Buddy Bear
06-11-2015, 10:21
Yes GW are mind bogglingly backwards but they've been around long enough to know what they're doing

If that were the case then why have their profits been consistently declining for years now, while the miniature gaming market itself is growing and becoming more profitable?

UndeadKing
06-11-2015, 10:23
Fantasy was around long enough bleeding money and they needed to fix it. Course they were going to lose money initially. Any thinking otherwise id be somewhat surprised. If gw went by your reasoning they may as well shut down now as they lose money no matter what they release.



Some people do like the game. Some people could care less about fantasy, 40k and the heresy. We're allowed to do that.



Nothing may change. I'm not bothered if it does nor have i said it will pick up etc. Just saying gw have been here long enough to know what to expect.

I don't know, nor do I care. I just merely gave an opinion. If i knew id be hounded for it id not bother posting. Guess what people say about folks on here is true

Niall78
06-11-2015, 10:26
If that were the case then why have their profits been consistently declining for years now, while the miniature gaming market itself is growing and becoming more profitable?

Why has their product range fallen to its core of 40K and the rebooted WFB - AoS?

A company shrinking its lines to core products then attempting to reboot the system that brought them success in the first place is usually a sign of very bad things. It's actually a part of the life-cycle of gaming companies if you know your hobby history. Retrenchment usually comes a few years before collapse and finally death.

Niall78
06-11-2015, 10:28
If i knew id be hounded for it id not bother posting. Guess what people say about folks on here is true

Where were you hounded? You gave an opinion on an internet forum - devised so people could express their opinions - and in return got the opinions of others.

Drakkar du Chaos
06-11-2015, 10:31
Fantasy was around long enough bleeding money and they needed to fix it. Course they were going to lose money initially. Any thinking otherwise id be somewhat surprised. If gw went by your reasoning they may as well shut down now as they lose money no matter what they release.

Some people do like the game. Some people could care less about fantasy, 40k and the heresy. We're allowed to do that.

Nothing may change. I'm not bothered if it does nor have i said it will pick up etc. Just saying gw have been here long enough to know what to expect.

If GW managed 40K the same way they did with Fantasy they will go bankrupt in two years.

And about the "genious AoS" dont forget it's about Sigmarines and more copyrights on generic recycled concepts like the Seraphons. How can you sell a game with only that ? This is laughable.
Did GW lost all creativity in the past 10 years ? I think they did, only Jervis Johnson remain in the team.

Buddy Bear
06-11-2015, 10:50
Fantasy was around long enough bleeding money and they needed to fix it. Course they were going to lose money initially. Any thinking otherwise id be somewhat surprised. If gw went by your reasoning they may as well shut down now as they lose money no matter what they release.

Clearly GW thought it'd be making more money, as they've already pumped out four limited edition books which they clearly expected to sell out with a fifth on the way. Do you really think they released AOS to make less money than Warhammer Fantasy, though? Of course not. They obviously thought that they could release Sigmarines, and just like that, their sales would shoot up. Well, they clearly haven't.

Incidentally, Fantasy wasn't "bleeding" money. It was turning GW a profit, but just not as much of a profit as they wanted.


Some people do like the game. Some people could care less about fantasy, 40k and the heresy. We're allowed to do that.

Whoever said they're not allowed to do that? People were just responding that your reasoning is flawed and doesn't make much sense.


Nothing may change. I'm not bothered if it does nor have i said it will pick up etc. Just saying gw have been here long enough to know what to expect.

How can they know what to expect? They do no market research and are proud of that fact. And it's clear from their financials that all their longevity has bought them is more time before they go out of business. We're talking about a company which had two of the biggest games in the market, and they mishandled one so badly that they ended up cancelling it, while the other is likewise seeing declining sales, but its decline just hasn't been as noticeable because it started off so far in front of the rest of the pack. We're talking about a company which cut their stores down to 1-man operations and have instituted a pay freeze in order to cut costs, that's how bad things have gotten for them. So they obviously don't know what to expect, otherwise they wouldn't be tightening their belt as much as they've been doing.


I don't know, nor do I care. I just merely gave an opinion. If i knew id be hounded for it id not bother posting. Guess what people say about folks on here is true

Disagreeing with you isn't the same as hounding you. You posted your theory, people poked holes in your theory. It happens.

Zywus
06-11-2015, 10:57
Fantasy was around long enough bleeding money and they needed to fix it. Course they were going to lose money initially. Any thinking otherwise id be somewhat surprised. If gw went by your reasoning they may as well shut down now as they lose money no matter what they release.It's been said many times Fantasy was loosing GW money. It's always refuted by someone saying it didn't. That it was still making a profit but just not enough for GW to consider it worth the resources of supporting it.

BTW, why is it inevitable that a new release loses you money? Had GW produced a well-recieved 9th edition I'm certain that it would have done quite a bit of profit for them. You know, normally when a game company releases a new edition, they do that to make money. Selling new startersets, new rulebooks, enthuse the playerbase into starting new armies or flesh out their old. That sort of thing.


I don't know, nor do I care. I just merely gave an opinion. If i knew id be hounded for it id not bother posting. Guess what people say about folks on here is true
Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help, help! I'm being repressed :cries:

Agrimax
06-11-2015, 11:06
Fantasy was around long enough bleeding money and they needed to fix it. Course they were going to lose money initially. Any thinking otherwise id be somewhat surprised. If gw went by your reasoning they may as well shut down now as they lose money no matter what they release.


That's an odd assumption. Why would losing money be inevitable? The general consensus is not that WHFB was bleeding money, only that it wasn't anything like as profitable as 40k. That means you have a profitable starting point to build on, if you do it in a progressive way rather than just killing it dead and trying to start something new.

At it's simplest, they could have launched AoS while maintaining WHFB and run the two in parallel, utilising the same models and then getting income from people whichever system they preferred, potentially increasing overall sales (hence profits) in the process.

Spiney Norman
06-11-2015, 11:09
Or when they discover that the vets were actually the ones spending the money; they tend to have more of it and a lower barrier to entry.

That's an investing statement and completely contradictory to what I see locally, most veterans already have their armies, usually the only way you can get them to spend is to release a new army book and a completely new unit concept that has not existed before. You might possibly be able to tempt them to rebuy an existing unit if you produce a really nice new kits for that unit but in my experience no-one nurses nostalgia for their old models like warhammer veterans, half of the guys I play regularly are still using armies that are 50% pewter.

The only way to get big spends out of veterans is usually to convince them to start a new army


Most companies go for the "long tail" revenue - slow consistent sales of old stuff, it's essentially no work and whilst it's not headline figures every year, over the lifetime it adds up. We've got customers still buying widgets we stopped marketing years ago, and the total revenue from them eclipses any new sales.

Most of the vets I know have a hobby budget of say, £50-100 a month and have been gaming for 10+ years. Assuming £50/month that's a hobby spend of £6000. No churn-and-burn new player is going to spend that before dropping off again.

Every company has to figure out a solution to the problem of how do you keep selling things to someone who already has everything they need to play the game, GW has tried a few things in the past, using the rules in 7th/8th edition to force unit sizes up to stupid levels and using the armies on parade thing to encourage people to start new armies. They hit on a good idea in 40k 6th edition by allowing people to add small allied contingent from different armies to the their existing force, unfortunately GWs ability to balance codex rules is so terrible all that did was to create a new era of min-maxing, but if they had the slightest clue how to balance a points-based system that was potentially a great idea to ease people into a new army without the massive cost barrier to entry that wfb always had. They took that a stage further with 40k 7th ed/AoS by allowing free form army building, but with even worse codex balance than the previous edition that has proved to be an absolute disaster for 40k, not to mention the grotesquely transparent 'have free special rules if you buy this list of units' philosophy behind the recent formations.



BTW, why is it inevitable that a new release loses you money? Had GW produced a well-recieved 9th edition I'm certain that it would have done quite a bit of profit for them. You know, normally when a game company releases a new edition, they do that to make money. Selling new startersets, new rulebooks, enthuse the playerbase into starting new armies or flesh out their old. That sort of thing.

It's not inevitable that any new release will lose you money, but BIG changes (which AoS was), almost always do. People don't like change so in the short term we see the kind of rage Warseer is currently experiencing from people who liked what was there before, generally these people will move on to something else and it takes time to recruit replacement players.

If the change that was made was the right thing to do, in the long term more people will be attracted to the game than were lost because of the change but whether or not that has happened probably won't be apparent for a year or so and given that Warseer is only really populated by the disaffected raging types, even if the early signs were good, or even indifferent, we probably wouldn't know about it.

GW obviously thought their wfb customer base was small enough to be worth gambling with, I guess it remains to be seen whether that was a good call or not.



Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help, help! I'm being oppressed :cries:

Sorry to be a pedant, but I'm fairly certain you're being REpressed ;)

Herzlos
06-11-2015, 11:14
They've said before that the bulk of sales from anything is in the initial launch window (which is why they keep upcoming releases secret), so why would they be expecting anything else with AoS? It's new and shiny and supposedly better than WHFB? I'm pretty sure they aren't expecting it to lose money initially and then catch up later.

Niall78
06-11-2015, 11:18
The only way to get big spends out of veterans is usually to convince them to start a new army.


Most veterans I know have multiple faction armies at points levels that would allow them to build multiple armies within those factions.

It's only in La-La Land that a company would blame its veteran long spending customers - some of whom have spent thousands a year for decades - for not spending enough and dumping them.

Kahadras
06-11-2015, 11:22
Fantasy was around long enough bleeding money and they needed to fix it. Course they were going to lose money initially. Any thinking otherwise I'd be somewhat surprised. If gw went by your reasoning they may as well shut down now as they lose money no matter what they release.

If Warhammer was losing GW money why didn't they drop it (like they dropped specialist games) instead of replacing it with AoS? If you are going to 'fix' a game that's going to be an important product for yourself going forward then why do the rules feel like they've been rushed out with little or no playtesting? Why has no serious effort been made to introduce a balancing mechanic into the game? GW can't just produce stuff and expect people to buy it without asking any questions; especialy concidering how much they now charge for so many of their products.

Zywus
06-11-2015, 11:23
That's an investing statement and completely contradictory to what I see locally, most veterans already have their armies, usually the only way you can get them to spend is to release a new army book and a completely new unit concept that has not existed before. You might possibly be able to tempt them to rebuy an existing unit if you produce a really nice new kits for that unit but in my experience no-one nurses nostalgia for their old models like warhammer veterans, half of the guys I play regularly are still using armies that are 50% pewter.

The only way to get big spends out of veterans is usually to convince them to start a new army
Your meta may very and all that of course but in my experience, people who stay with the hobby for a few years rarely keep to only one army. And even if someone do, how often does someone buy enough stuff for like 2-3k points, paint it up and then never add anything but still keeps playing? I'm sure there are a few examples; but for everyone of those there are a hundred* of us hoarding unpainted plastic in drawers and attics, gripped by our hubris, thinking that we'll get around to that army sometime in the near future.


Sorry to be a pedant, but I'm fairly certain you're being REpressed ;)
I had to rewatch the scene and yes you're correct. It should be repressed. It's been corrected now:)



*Ratio may in fact be different from 1:100

Buddy Bear
06-11-2015, 11:27
Right up until AOS I was collecting and playing the following:

- Ultramarines (which has grown to obscene levels, as I collect enough models to play whatever weird army variation I want to play)
- Blood Angels
- Imperial Knights
- Adeptus Mechanicus
- Necrons

- Empire
- Undead Legion
- Bretonnia

After AOS I collect and play the following:

- Ultramarines (I haven't made any additions after AOS, though)
- Imperial Knights (I may add the new Cerastus Knight from Forge World)

The rest I sold or now serves as the basis for a Kings of War army.

Spiney Norman
06-11-2015, 11:28
Your meta may very and all that of course but in my experience, people who stay with the hobby for a few years rarely keep to only one army. And even if someone do, how often does someone buy enough stuff for like 2-3k points, paint it up and then never add anything but still keeps playing? I'm sure there are a few examples; but for everyone of those there are a hundred* of us hoarding unpainted plastic in drawers and attics in our hubris, thinking that we'll get around to that army sometime in the near future

That's true to a point, I have four armies but none of them started within the last eight years because the game just got too expensive and I ended up in maintenance mode, just buying a few boxed sets of new units and an army book when they came out. I've all but dropped 40k now (I have four armies for that, but I haven't even bought the up to date codexes for the last two to get redone). I guess a lot of it rides on the affluence of your local community, most of our guys don't have a lot of spare cash lying around.

Zywus
06-11-2015, 11:41
That's true to a point, I have four armies but none of them started within the last eight years because the game just got too expensive and I ended up in maintenance mode, just buying a few boxed sets of new units and an army book when they came out. I've all but dropped 40k now (I have four armies for that, but I haven't even bought the up to date codexes for the last two to get redone). I guess a lot of it rides on the affluence of your local community, most of our guys don't have a lot of spare cash lying around.
Yea, the GW pricing and their axing of their smaller games does hurt the multi-collecting of their products.

A while ago it was not only cheaper to collect another army, but it was common for a fantasy player to get a Bloodbowl team or two, or for a pair of 40K players to get together for a BFG box etc. Now I can imagine that many only maintain their main WHFB army and their branching out goes to other manufacturers.

Niall78
06-11-2015, 11:41
That's true to a point, I have four armies but none of them started within the last eight years because the game just got too expensive and I ended up in maintenance mode, just buying a few boxed sets of new units and an army book when they came out. I've all but dropped 40k now (I have four armies for that, but I haven't even bought the up to date codexes for the last two to get redone). I guess a lot of it rides on the affluence of your local community, most of our guys don't have a lot of spare cash lying around.

We've always allowed proxying in our club - to do otherwise would have killed new entrants to WFB in our area years ago and eventually killed it at our club due to stagnation. Many just can't afford to pay the insane prices. Many are just unwilling to pay insane prices.

Nothing has changed in this regard with the introduction of AoS and the killing of the one of the oldest and most respected fantasy setting in existence. The prices are still insane. Until that is comprehensively addressed by GW their sales will continue to stagnate and drop.

Buddy Bear
06-11-2015, 11:46
Yea, the GW pricing and their axing of their smaller games does hurt the multi-collecting of their products.

A while ago it was not only cheaper to collect another army, but it was common for a fantasy player to get a Bloodbowl team or two, or for a pair of 40K players to get together for a BFG box etc. Now I can imagine that many only maintain their main WHFB army and their branching out goes to other manufacturers.

That was the case for me as well. I used to own two Blood Bowl teams, a couple Necromunda gangs, Warhammer Quest heroes, etc.

Nowadays, all that money which used to go to GW now goes towards Privateer Press, Fantasy Flight Games, and Mantic.

Niall78
06-11-2015, 12:02
That was the case for me as well. I used to own two Blood Bowl teams, a couple Necromunda gangs, Warhammer Quest heroes, etc.

Nowadays, all that money which used to go to GW now goes towards Privateer Press, Fantasy Flight Games, and Mantic.

GW think they earn their money in a closed ecosystem. They are the hobby. Cancelling specialist games means those customers move to the GW core systems. Cancelling WFB means those customers move to AoS.

Meanwhile in the real world GW sales continue to fall while the gaming market increases in size.

Herzlos
06-11-2015, 12:21
Yea, the GW pricing and their axing of their smaller games does hurt the multi-collecting of their products.

A while ago it was not only cheaper to collect another army, but it was common for a fantasy player to get a Bloodbowl team or two, or for a pair of 40K players to get together for a BFG box etc. Now I can imagine that many only maintain their main WHFB army and their branching out goes to other manufacturers.

When I started about '96, everyone had multiple armies across 40K/WHFB. I personally had Chaos Dwarfs, Orcs, Empire, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard, Blood Angels, and at least a unit from every other faction under both systems. And Space Hulk, and an Elf Blood Bowl team, and Epic Orcs / Marines / Guard, and so on. If I kept my hobby spending up I'd have been in a position to buy and use pretty much anything GW produced (if I didn't already own it).

These days, most people seem to stick with a single system/faction. I kept meaning to get back into WHFB but it was always just too expensive to start from scratch. All of my old stuff was sold years ago for historics.

Soundwave
06-11-2015, 14:47
GW think they earn their money in a closed ecosystem. They are the hobby. Cancelling specialist games means those customers move to the GW core systems. Cancelling WFB means those customers move to AoS.

Meanwhile in the real world GW sales continue to fall while the gaming market increases in size.
Not necessarily. Please do not forget as fact that there was a spike in sales due to "panick" mode for alot of customers.
The full status of decline in sales will not be apparent for some time.
Things to look out for in the "future of release "department, just using a common sense calculator, are these sorts of things...
More storm cast eternal release?(are they selling that well at this price.)

Limited addition books supply and demand... (oh still selling that "limited "release 6 weeks on).
The amount of live coverage and publications in the white dwarf.(remember gold,gold goodie gold gold gold spray paint to fight the blood bloody blood blood blood nuts.)

tmod
06-11-2015, 15:18
It's almost like GW knew that initially AoS would be getting a very mixed reaction and many would be upset/ angry/ rage quit etc and lose some money. Then boom Horus heresy plastics just in time for half year report to wash away any failing AoS would have shown. Many GW decisions are bafflingly stupid but this is pure genius, cover the initial losses by bringing out plastic heresy which people will buy in abundance and save face then next year I think is when we will see where AoS is really going as with the cash raked in for heresy to tide them over AoS can get properly sorted. Repacks to get stuff updated like lizardmen then we start seeing new stuff. Yes GW are mind bogglingly backwards but they've been around long enough to know what they're doing and this whether luck or planned GW has/will save their ass on this one

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I'm not so sure, the Horus heresy set they're releasing next weekend is going to be like printing money for GW, I know at least ten guys from my club that intend to order multiple sets and many more who will be getting just the one. I think that might just obscure any slump they've had because of the poor performance of AoS.

Not questioning whether HH will sell, I bet it will be huge. But the 100k kits needed to obscure a worst case scenario for AoS is waaaay beyond it being a huge success! That said, even though AoS might very well be an economic failure, there will be some sales. If AoS manage 50% of fantasy sales, and HH sells 30k sets (still a huge number!) then the lower turnover will not seem dramatic. Also, the HH box will have much lower costs associated with it than a full fantasy range. Interesting times indeed...

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Soundwave
06-11-2015, 15:32
Yes HH will be huge, yet would of had far more volume IF AoS had been much more of a sucessfull venture.

Vazalaar
06-11-2015, 16:17
Not questioning whether HH will sell, I bet it will be huge. But the 100k kits needed to obscure a worst case scenario for AoS is waaaay beyond it being a huge success! That said, even though AoS might very well be an economic failure, there will be some sales. If AoS manage 50% of fantasy sales, and HH sells 30k sets (still a huge number!) then the lower turnover will not seem dramatic. Also, the HH box will have much lower costs associated with it than a full fantasy range. Interesting times indeed...

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Why would you think that AoS only manages to have only 50% of fantasy sales. I don't believe that in example the latest two regular Warhammer releases (Dwarves/Wood Elves) brought in more money than the Sigmarines and Khorne stuff. Even the succes of the first End Times books isn't so hard to achieve.

By all accounts GW should have better financial reports than last year. LotR income replaced by 30K, which will bring in more money than LotR did the last couple of years combinend (+ LotR fans buying the mini's the really want before it is gone for good), AoS replacing Warhammer (this is a mixed bag, as we have no idea how much money Warhammer was bringing in the last couple of years) and for 40K The Tau release seem to have sold very well.

If the next two financial reports are bad in comparison with the previous two, than GW will have a very big problem.

Interesting times.

tmod
06-11-2015, 22:25
Why would you think that AoS only manages to have only 50% of fantasy sales. I don't believe that in example the latest two regular Warhammer releases (Dwarves/Wood Elves) brought in more money than the Sigmarines and Khorne stuff. Even the succes of the first End Times books isn't so hard to achieve.

By all accounts GW should have better financial reports than last year. LotR income replaced by 30K, which will bring in more money than LotR did the last couple of years combinend (+ LotR fans buying the mini's the really want before it is gone for good), AoS replacing Warhammer (this is a mixed bag, as we have no idea how much money Warhammer was bringing in the last couple of years) and for 40K The Tau release seem to have sold very well.

If the next two financial reports are bad in comparison with the previous two, than GW will have a very big problem.

Interesting times.

We do know warhammer was bringing in about £15 million. (Stated by numerous insiders as well as official reps; sometimes as a blunt figure, sometimes as a percentage of total sales). I have no reason to believe AoS is going to bring in any specific amount, but £15 million is more than just new releases (O suspect a lot was terrain, a vast range of old releases each selling slowly, but adding up). I'm perfectly aware that fantasy/aos together might have actually increased sales due to collectors panic buying stuff, but worst case scenario is that GW need to sell in excess of £15 million (including the tiny amount of Hobbit stuff in there) worth of AoS/Fantasy/HH in order to stay at the same revenue. This while more and more FLGS dropping GW altogether (GW admitted this was a major threat to growth last report).

Basically what I'm trying to convey is that this is extremely uncertain at the moment. AoS is most definitely down comparef to Fantasy, but it might be by 1%, 90% or anything in between. HH alone will definitely NOT be able to get back all that cash, that number of kits sold is simply not realistic. That said, HH will most certainly turn a huge profit, and will to some degree counteract AoS' inadequacies. The two big unknowns is how much less AoS is selling compared to Fantasy, and how much the total panic legacy Fantasy sales amount to. I've not seen any credible estimates for either of these two questions, so we'll have to try and piece it all together next summer...

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75hastings69
07-11-2015, 03:29
So I see the limited edititon Lizardmen Arm....... sorry, Seraphon Battletome is still available, 1 week and not able to sell only 1000 copies worldwide, very poor.

MagicAngle
07-11-2015, 03:40
So I see the limited edititon Lizardmen Arm....... sorry, Seraphon Battletome is still available, 1 week and not able to sell only 1000 copies worldwide, very poor.

Cue the usual chorus of how this means nothing because AoS churns out its rules for free and, in fact, actually represents a resounding vindication of GW's new strategy of not selling anything to anyone.

Anyhow - yes - it's a very poor show. With a clear point of comparison in the sales of the 8th ed Limited Ed book.

Kyriakin
07-11-2015, 04:34
Were the panic buyers mostly buying from GW?

I assumed most of them were picked up from panic sellers (I wont use the term "rage quitters", as I don't think the negative connotations are justified in this case) on Ebay, or wherever.

Scribe of Khorne
07-11-2015, 04:39
So I see the limited edititon Lizardmen Arm....... sorry, Seraphon Battletome is still available, 1 week and not able to sell only 1000 copies worldwide, very poor.

Didnt the Tau limited Edition go out of stock within minutes?

75hastings69
07-11-2015, 05:16
You know it's bad when not even eBay scalpers are buying them....... they simply don't want to get stuck with them.

The bearded one
07-11-2015, 05:23
Didnt the Tau limited Edition go out of stock within minutes?

Less than a tenth of the 'ghostkeel edition' remain, but 40k as a whole is a lot more popular than fantasy or AoS anyway. Comparing AoS limited editions to 8th edition limited editions is a more proper comparison.

Then there's the difference in the practical worth of the books. 8th edition armybooks were kinda necessary to be able to play (and good gracious how happy am I that I bought the 8th edition lizardmen limited edition - I now get to use it FOREVER! I am legitimately pleased!!) but with the AoS battletomes I.. uhm.. I'm not really sure what's even in the book? All the rules are online, and when I look at them on the shelf they give me the vibe like they're campaign books rather than armybooks.

Chikout
07-11-2015, 05:40
This is all a little unfair. We know that Tau is very popular as the scenery and the little army box sold in seconds, but the limited edition Tau book is still in stock after 2 weeks. It seems like overpriced limited editions of any kind are just not selling these days. I wonder how many people have switched over to digital. Ps I am sure aos is not doing well, but this does not seem to be a good metric.

MagicAngle
07-11-2015, 05:48
This is all a little unfair. We know that Tau is very popular as the scenery and the little army box sold in seconds, but the limited edition Tau book is still in stock after 2 weeks.

Looks sold out to me, when I go to GW's site (US). "Ghostkeel Edition", right?

Chikout
07-11-2015, 05:55
Strange. It is still on the UK site.

MagicAngle
07-11-2015, 06:11
Huh. Maybe each region gets an allotment of the total copies? Sure some folks round here can explain how this is possible.

Buddy Bear
07-11-2015, 07:23
Maybe each region gets an allotment of the total copies?

That's exactly how it works. If it says "Sold Out" it only means sold out in that particular region, not worldwide.


So I see the limited edititon Lizardmen Arm....... sorry, Seraphon Battletome is still available, 1 week and not able to sell only 1000 copies worldwide, very poor.

Looks like GW will be batting 0/5 with these limited edition books. It's an interesting comparison with Warhammer Fantasy, too, as the Lizardmen limited edition was sold out by about this point. If AOS was the more financially successful game, then wouldn't it be doing better than Warhammer Fantasy in every metric? And yet it keeps failing hard every time it tries to sell a limited edition.

Drakkar du Chaos
07-11-2015, 07:45
Huh. Maybe each region gets an allotment of the total copies? Sure some folks round here can explain how this is possible.

Yeah that's it. For example in France we got 1000, remains less than 150 Tau Limited available. I dont know how much Tau Limited Editions GW produced, more than 7000 at least, but it says it all when you see the Seraphons are still here with no indication of how many of the 1000 limited edition WORLDWIDE remains.

GrandmasterWang
07-11-2015, 08:38
So I see the limited edititon Lizardmen Arm....... sorry, Seraphon Battletome is still available, 1 week and not able to sell only 1000 copies worldwide, very poor.
That's not too bad. It has only been one week afterall. It is however slower than the 8th Edition Lizardmen Ltd Edition which sold out in under a week.

However GW is selling the Seraphon book for more and giving less compared with the 8th book so each individual unit is worth more to them... if they can sell them.

So so far not so good for Seraphon. If you want to see some 'very poor' look to the Khorne Bloodbound which came out a month ago if i recall. 1000 copies and still not sold out.

Now if you want to see 'complete fail' by GW then take a look at the Stormcast Eternal Limited Edition..... it's been ages... 1000 copies only and still not sold out. Simply pathetic by GW.

Imo these 3 books all failing to sell out shows just how low the interest and demand for the AOS battletomes is.

8th Edition Fantasy had a lot more demand. An 8th Edition limited edition army book still being available over a month after release would be unheard of.

Like you say Hastings the indicators for AOS are very poor indeed.

I honestly don't even know if any of these limited Battletomes will even sell out by Christmas.

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Chikout
07-11-2015, 08:49
Wow more misinformation. The Tau limited codex is 1500 numbered copies worldwide. Read the white dwarf. It says it twice.

ewar
07-11-2015, 09:49
GW have been pushing the pricing on the limited editions to insanity and then also releasing a new version 2 years later.

It's no wonder that even the Tau one hasn't sold out. That is a serious wedge of cash to drop on a book and some cards, even for a crazy fan boy.

I think they're finally hitting a ceiling of what is commercially viable. But fair play, if they sold 1350 copies at double the price of the previous limited edition then that is almost doubling their margin.

Drakkar du Chaos
07-11-2015, 09:56
that is almost doubling their margin.

What are we talking about ? 100.000€ ?
Add one zero and still not enough for Kirby's new boat.

Kahadras
07-11-2015, 10:04
I honestly don't even know if any of these limited Battletomes will even sell out by Christmas.

I honestly don't think any of them will. I've found that limited edition stuff tends to get snapped up on pre-order or in the first few days after it's release. IMHO I think there's a general loss of enthusiasm for GW's limited edition stuff. Tau are one of GW's most popular 40K armies and yet there are still Ghostkeel editions up on their website to buy.

Buddy Bear
07-11-2015, 10:41
I'd say that it's not entirely coincidental that this loss of enthusiasm directly coincides with the release of Age of Sigmar. Expensive limited edition books were getting sold out right up to the release of Age of Sigmar.

Although in the case of the Tau book, they were supposedly all sold out, and then a number of them became available for sale again, so I'm not sure what was going on there. But I checked and they're sold out in the US and NZ at least, although still available in the UK.

Kahadras
07-11-2015, 15:54
I'd say that it's not entirely coincidental that this loss of enthusiasm directly coincides with the release of Age of Sigmar. Expensive limited edition books were getting sold out right up to the release of Age of Sigmar

What I would say is that we're now onto the second cycle of LE stuff for 40K and there's been a slow down there as well. IMHO I think there's a more general realisation that the limited edition stuff costs a lot for what you get and you'll have to buy a new one in two or three years time. The Ghostkeel book costs £80 more than the regular codex and for that you get a different cover, a box, 6 tactical objective markers, a set of tactical objective cards and a picture.

Scribe of Khorne
07-11-2015, 18:02
It has less to do with being a second cycle, and more to do with 'well what if they AOS us' feelings.

At least around here, AoS killed 40K and 30K play as well.

GrandmasterWang
08-11-2015, 03:41
Also at least where i am the Limited Editions are significantly more expensive than they used to be.

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Sotek
08-11-2015, 12:20
The main benefit is that my FLGS is stocking and pushing KoW since AOS killed everything. 40k is ok there but mostly for people buying kits to paint weirdly.

Whirlwind
08-11-2015, 12:30
I'd say that it's not entirely coincidental that this loss of enthusiasm directly coincides with the release of Age of Sigmar. Expensive limited edition books were getting sold out right up to the release of Age of Sigmar.

Although in the case of the Tau book, they were supposedly all sold out, and then a number of them became available for sale again, so I'm not sure what was going on there. But I checked and they're sold out in the US and NZ at least, although still available in the UK.

I think before they weren't limited to 1 per customer when they were initially released, so I think a lot might have been going to resellers. I assume GW picked up that this was going on and cancelled quite a lot. The question is whether it is the resellers or GW that are the benefit of this given it still hasn't sold out.

tmod
08-11-2015, 18:00
Were the panic buyers mostly buying from GW?

I assumed most of them were picked up from panic sellers (I wont use the term "rage quitters", as I don't think the negative connotations are justified in this case) on Ebay, or wherever.

Good point. I would guess you're right, but I can't see how we can know for certain... I'm sure some bought from GW and some from eBay, but we don't know the distribution of this...

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Rolsheen
09-11-2015, 08:31
I was just looking at the Seraphon on GW's site in the interest of starting them and noticed they've gotten rid of one of the newest models from the range, the plastic Saurus Oldblood that came out the same time as the Skink Priest. They only have the finecast one now.

Dosiere
09-11-2015, 08:37
Why don't they offer something of actual value in these limited editions? Something for the game, not necessary to play, but something any fan of a particular faction would like to have. Unique unit cards, a maneuver tool with faction specific markings, a cool turn counter for your faction, etc... The mark up is large enough I'm actually rather shocked they don't really contain anything game related.

jtrowell
09-11-2015, 09:41
I was just looking at the Seraphon on GW's site in the interest of starting them and noticed they've gotten rid of one of the newest models from the range, the plastic Saurus Oldblood that came out the same time as the Skink Priest. They only have the finecast one now.

If it's the model that I am thinking of, his feet were part of a square base provided with it on the sprue, so it wouldn't have been able to be rebased on a round square without resculting some feet and remaking the sprue.

EagleWarrior
09-11-2015, 11:56
There are quite a lot of the plastic single pose heroes that have a square base as part of their sprue. They may retool the casting machine, or may just drop them entirely.

Zywus
09-11-2015, 13:00
There are quite a lot of the plastic single pose heroes that have a square base as part of their sprue. They may retool the casting machine, or may just drop them entirely.They'll most certanly drop them since they did so with the Oldblood.

It makes me wonder why they did minis with feet integrated in the bases in the first place since they have presumably planned for AoS since 2013 or so.
Perhaps the models post 2013 don't have these kind of bases (I'm not really up to date on this), or the decision to go for round bases were made relatively late in development.

Herzlos
09-11-2015, 13:15
I suspect "AoS" has been in planning since before 2013, but that the actual details of it (like the round bases) were probably only decided on about the End Times.

Spiney Norman
09-11-2015, 18:07
They'll most certanly drop them since they did so with the Oldblood.

It makes me wonder why they did minis with feet integrated in the bases in the first place since they have presumably planned for AoS since 2013 or so.
Perhaps the models post 2013 don't have these kind of bases (I'm not really up to date on this), or the decision to go for round bases were made relatively late in development.

It depends on the model I think, for example the skink priest make the jump even though he has a sculpted square base on his sprue because there is no essential part of the model sculpted on to the base, you can just as easily glue all the important bits of the model to a circular base. This was not the case with the old blood as his feet were part of his sculpted base, there are several other models where this is the case and others which have a rock formation as part of their base that would make simply gluing them to a round impractical.

Looking for patterns I'd guess that models like the chaos Nurgle Lord with the GW and the armoured chaos sorcerer are pretty safe but if you have a particular fondness for the savage Orc Warboss, plastic bray shaman or horned chaos Lord with spear it might be a good idea to buy them sooner rather than later.

Darth Alec
09-11-2015, 18:47
Bought and read the Seraphon book. It's rather vague, light on solid fluff, and a reasonably entertaining read. It seems GW can't make up its mind about how Seraphon society works now. The Slann are the only mortals, but everyone else still has things like respect, roles, conjuring weapons and harvesting fireleech bolas. The Slann have a new master plan, which should lead to a universe set in perfect order. The hows, whys, whats and whens are as vague as the Great Plan was. Seems to focus mostly on destroying major concentrations of chaos, such as killing warlords or destroying temples. The Slann rarely cooperate, each following the plan in their own way. And they are still rather oblivious to the universe. At least now they do appear actively to summon their armies, so there's that. They got a huge boost in activity since Sigmar showed up, and the Stormcast recognize them as natural allies, though they have no idea what the Seraphon are. And there's a short story about Seraphon showing up to reinforce a Stormcast attack, but they end up just killing the warlord and sinking the entire place, Stormcast and all, into a lake of lava. Whilst the Stormcast are saluting them. Good job.

Is it worth the cash? Maybe. I liked it. It's a lot vaguer than I would have liked. "Seraphon, except from Slann, are celestial demons" is still about as much as we know. No stories about how the Slann learned to summon armies, what "drifting through the void" entails or much else. But the stuff that's in there was reasonably entertaining, with three short stories to accompany three battleplans. The battleplans are pretty awesome and look very fun. There's even a 3 player, 2-on-1 scenario in there. Can't wait to play these. Oh, and the formations are pretty sweet. The monster formation lets you heal D3 wounds a turn per monster within 10 of a Slann!

Drakkar du Chaos
09-11-2015, 18:57
Bought and read the Seraphon book. It's rather vague, light on solid fluff, and a reasonably entertaining read. It seems GW can't make up its mind about how Seraphon society works now. The Slann are the only mortals, but everyone else still has things like respect, roles, conjuring weapons and harvesting fireleech bolas. The Slann have a new master plan, which should lead to a universe set in perfect order. The hows, whys, whats and whens are as vague as the Great Plan was. Seems to focus mostly on destroying major concentrations of chaos, such as killing warlords or destroying temples. The Slann rarely cooperate, each following the plan in their own way. And they are still rather oblivious to the universe. At least now they do appear actively to summon their armies, so there's that. They got a huge boost in activity since Sigmar showed up, and the Stormcast recognize them as natural allies, though they have no idea what the Seraphon are. And there's a short story about Seraphon showing up to reinforce a Stormcast attack, but they end up just killing the warlord and sinking the entire place, Stormcast and all, into a lake of lava. Whilst the Stormcast are saluting them. Good job.

Is it worth the cash? Maybe. I liked it. It's a lot vaguer than I would have liked. "Seraphon, except from Slann, are celestial demons" is still about as much as we know. No stories about how the Slann learned to summon armies, what "drifting through the void" entails or much else. But the stuff that's in there was reasonably entertaining, with three short stories to accompany three battleplans. The battleplans are pretty awesome and look very fun. There's even a 3 player, 2-on-1 scenario in there. Can't wait to play these. Oh, and the formations are pretty sweet. The monster formation lets you heal D3 wounds a turn per monster within 10 of a Slann!

So before it was "lizards in the jungle" and now its "daemons in space", everything else remains more or less the same. What a change. AoS the Revolution...

Ayin
10-11-2015, 07:36
Why don't they offer something of actual value in these limited editions? Something for the game, not necessary to play, but something any fan of a particular faction would like to have. Unique unit cards, a maneuver tool with faction specific markings, a cool turn counter for your faction, etc... The mark up is large enough I'm actually rather shocked they don't really contain anything game related.

I don't know if you've seen any of the examples, but take a look at the Sigmarine measuring tape and it's cost.

THAT is why they don't put something like the things above you've mentioned. Because they hope to sell that kind of stuff for $20-$40.

burzikak
11-11-2015, 02:38
Why don't they offer something of actual value in these limited editions?

I would love them to give ltd ed buyers a code to get the e-book version for free. If I could get electronic and physical versions for one price (albeit high) I would consider it.

Choombatta
11-11-2015, 03:07
So before it was "lizards in the jungle" and now its "daemons in space", everything else remains more or less the same. What a change. AoS the Revolution...

Considering in actually went from "Devolved Old Ones" to "Creations of the Old Ones" to "No Mention of the Old Ones", I think you mean Warhammer in all its' incarnations, what a revolution!

Vertumne
11-11-2015, 09:05
Bought and read the Seraphon book. It's rather vague, light on solid fluff, and a reasonably entertaining read. It seems GW can't make up its mind about how Seraphon society works now. The Slann are the only mortals, but everyone else still has things like respect, roles, conjuring weapons and harvesting fireleech bolas. The Slann have a new master plan, which should lead to a universe set in perfect order. The hows, whys, whats and whens are as vague as the Great Plan was. Seems to focus mostly on destroying major concentrations of chaos, such as killing warlords or destroying temples. The Slann rarely cooperate, each following the plan in their own way. And they are still rather oblivious to the universe. At least now they do appear actively to summon their armies, so there's that. They got a huge boost in activity since Sigmar showed up, and the Stormcast recognize them as natural allies, though they have no idea what the Seraphon are. And there's a short story about Seraphon showing up to reinforce a Stormcast attack, but they end up just killing the warlord and sinking the entire place, Stormcast and all, into a lake of lava. Whilst the Stormcast are saluting them. Good job.

Is it worth the cash? Maybe. I liked it. It's a lot vaguer than I would have liked. "Seraphon, except from Slann, are celestial demons" is still about as much as we know. No stories about how the Slann learned to summon armies, what "drifting through the void" entails or much else. But the stuff that's in there was reasonably entertaining, with three short stories to accompany three battleplans. The battleplans are pretty awesome and look very fun. There's even a 3 player, 2-on-1 scenario in there. Can't wait to play these. Oh, and the formations are pretty sweet. The monster formation lets you heal D3 wounds a turn per monster within 10 of a Slann!

Thanks for the review. Here is another one which also comes to similar conclusions. Art in the book seems really impressive. https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/2015/11/06/review-battletome-seraphon/

GrandmasterWang
11-11-2015, 09:57
Bought and read the Seraphon book. It's rather vague, light on solid fluff, and a reasonably entertaining read. It seems GW can't make up its mind about how Seraphon society works now. The Slann are the only mortals, but everyone else still has things like respect, roles, conjuring weapons and harvesting fireleech bolas. The Slann have a new master plan, which should lead to a universe set in perfect order. The hows, whys, whats and whens are as vague as the Great Plan was. Seems to focus mostly on destroying major concentrations of chaos, such as killing warlords or destroying temples. The Slann rarely cooperate, each following the plan in their own way. And they are still rather oblivious to the universe. At least now they do appear actively to summon their armies, so there's that. They got a huge boost in activity since Sigmar showed up, and the Stormcast recognize them as natural allies, though they have no idea what the Seraphon are. And there's a short story about Seraphon showing up to reinforce a Stormcast attack, but they end up just killing the warlord and sinking the entire place, Stormcast and all, into a lake of lava. Whilst the Stormcast are saluting them. Good job.

Is it worth the cash? Maybe. I liked it. It's a lot vaguer than I would have liked. "Seraphon, except from Slann, are celestial demons" is still about as much as we know. No stories about how the Slann learned to summon armies, what "drifting through the void" entails or much else. But the stuff that's in there was reasonably entertaining, with three short stories to accompany three battleplans. The battleplans are pretty awesome and look very fun. There's even a 3 player, 2-on-1 scenario in there. Can't wait to play these. Oh, and the formations are pretty sweet. The monster formation lets you heal D3 wounds a turn per monster within 10 of a Slann!
Thanks for the review. I appreciate it. It's the first one i have read of this book. Glad you enjoyed it.

In the book do they fight vs anyone else besides Chaos at anytime? Like Ogors, undead etc?

Are the unit rules greatly different from the Legacy Lizardmen ones?

Glad the battleplans seem fun

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Kahadras
11-11-2015, 10:32
Why don't they offer something of actual value in these limited editions?

Probably because GW aren't motivated to add in something else. The limited edition Seraphon book costs nearly 3 times as much as the basic book and for that you get it printed on better quality paper with a cardboard box and some art prints. Obviously GW feels that the exclusivity of owning one of the thousand limited edition books makes the product good value for money. Why offer anything more if people are prepared to buy what they're selling? IMHO GW are already creaming off a large profit from each limited edition book they sell. Why would they want to reduce that margin?

Holier Than Thou
11-11-2015, 10:36
Probably because GW aren't motivated to add in something else. The limited edition Seraphon book costs nearly 3 times as much as the basic book and for that you get it printed on better quality paper with a cardboard box and some art prints. Obviously GW feels that the exclusivity of owning one of the thousand limited edition books makes the product good value for money. Why offer anything more if people are prepared to buy what they're selling? IMHO GW are already creaming off a large profit from each limited edition book they sell. Why would they want to reduce that margin?

Because then they might actually be able to sell them all instead of seemingly getting nowhere near that goal.

Darth Alec
11-11-2015, 10:46
Thanks for the review. Here is another one which also comes to similar conclusions. Art in the book seems really impressive. https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/2015/11/06/review-battletome-seraphon/

I can largely agree with that review. Though I'm a bit more sceptical on the lacking "hard" bits of fluff. It's certainly an introductory work, and lays enough groundwork to potentially create a great and mysterious race.


Thanks for the review. I appreciate it. It's the first one i have read of this book. Glad you enjoyed it.

In the book do they fight vs anyone else besides Chaos at anytime? Like Ogors, undead etc?

Are the unit rules greatly different from the Legacy Lizardmen ones?

Glad the battleplans seem fun

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

More people need to get their reviews out :P

They fight largely chaos (Khorne, Skaven and Slaaneshi variants). Slann hate chaos with a passion. There are tiny fluff snippets about fighting various Urruks, Goblins and Undead as well.

The rules are roughly 90% the same. Tehenhuain is missing ( :( ), and the special characters have become generic ones (Chacax -> Eternity Warden).

Battleplans seem very fun. It's good to have scenarios with completely different objectives from the normal.

Zywus
11-11-2015, 11:22
Is there any justification for why the Slann take part in battles?

If they could just summon (or re-imagine) lizard deamons to the surface from the safety of their spaceships it would be very unnessecary to risk losing the finite number of slann (They don't reproduce right?) when the lizards are an infinite resource (since they can just be re-summoned if they die.

Do the Slann need to be in close proximity of their armies to control them or to keep them from dissolving into memories again, or any other reason?

Darth Alec
11-11-2015, 12:04
Is there any justification for why the Slann take part in battles?

If they could just summon (or re-imagine) lizard deamons to the surface from the safety of their spaceships it would be very unnessecary to risk losing the finite number of slann (They don't reproduce right?) when the lizards are an infinite resource (since they can just be re-summoned if they die.

Do the Slann need to be in close proximity of their armies to control them or to keep them from dissolving into memories again, or any other reason?

It seems the Slann don't necessarily need to be there. There are hints about how certain of the Skinks can lead the armies as well (along with the Saurus). However, a Slaan does need to materialise the army. Every bit of fluff has also involved a Slann showing up, usually through meteoric impact, and glowing out his army. Since the Seraphon are only deployed to achieve some objective of the Slann, the froggy is usually involved to ensure what his mission is. Which usually involves some sort of magic.

Clewz
11-11-2015, 12:43
I'm presuming the slann can live on Lord Kroak style

Kahadras
11-11-2015, 16:21
Because then they might actually be able to sell them all instead of seemingly getting nowhere near that goal.

I think GW cares more about the profit from each limited edition book rather than getting them to sell out.

Spiney Norman
11-11-2015, 17:25
I think GW cares more about the profit from each limited edition book rather than getting them to sell out.

While there may be some truth in that, it's also true that if they sold ALL their Ltd eds they'd end up with a whole lot more profit.

Personally I think it's a good thing that they've had a bunch of Ltd eds bomb because it will force them to take a look at why they bombed and hopefully make changes going forward.

Katastrophe
11-11-2015, 19:10
While there may be some truth in that, it's also true that if they sold ALL their Ltd eds they'd end up with a whole lot more profit.

Personally I think it's a good thing that they've had a bunch of Ltd eds bomb because it will force them to take a look at why they bombed and hopefully make changes going forward.

Do you really think they perform that kind of internal analysis? I suspect the answer is no. I've not seen any evidence of their looking at a product, determining why it sold badly, and course correcting. They appear to just rely on hit or miss and hope things sell. They have a few sure hits on their hands with things like Horus Heresy but that's likely because the Forge World folks have been very non-GW in their handling of that product.

Drakkar du Chaos
11-11-2015, 19:19
Personally I think it's a good thing that they've had a bunch of Ltd eds bomb because it will force them to take a look at why they bombed and hopefully make changes going forward.

Agreed with you if we switch these words with that : Age of Sigmar.

Spiney Norman
11-11-2015, 19:54
Do you really think they perform that kind of internal analysis? I suspect the answer is no. I've not seen any evidence of their looking at a product, determining why it sold badly, and course correcting. They appear to just rely on hit or miss and hope things sell. They have a few sure hits on their hands with things like Horus Heresy but that's likely because the Forge World folks have been very non-GW in their handling of that product.

It can appear that way I guess, but lead times for new products make it harder to determine. For example the current Seraphon Ltd ed might hypothetically have been commissioned 6 months to a year ago so even if they took the decision to re-evaluate their Ltd eds today we wouldn't see the effect of that until the middle of next year at the earliest (completely hypothetical estimates on the lead times because I don't know a great deal about publishing).

Based on the date stamp on the sprues of the minis we've had for AoS so far they've been planning it for around 2 years (although I'd guess lead times for books are less than that) so we are not going to see a sudden change even if they wanted to.

Katastrophe
11-11-2015, 22:01
It can appear that way I guess, but lead times for new products make it harder to determine. For example the current Seraphon Ltd ed might hypothetically have been commissioned 6 months to a year ago so even if they took the decision to re-evaluate their Ltd eds today we wouldn't see the effect of that until the middle of next year at the earliest (completely hypothetical estimates on the lead times because I don't know a great deal about publishing).

Based on the date stamp on the sprues of the minis we've had for AoS so far they've been planning it for around 2 years (although I'd guess lead times for books are less than that) so we are not going to see a sudden change even if they wanted to.

Agreed as to lead times and such. But I guess I'm more doubtful as to there ability to understand the market, analyze their sales and products, and plan future products accordingly.

AoS, I believe, was a result of failing to do exactly that. I believe they looked at WFB sales and said "revenue less than 40K" and stopped the analysis right there. They could have tried to determine why it's less but I suspect they never took the analysis there.
They also look at their sales and say 40% of all sales are Space Marines or Space Marine related and say "Space Marines good" without ever determining why Space Marines are the top seller and never trying to determine what would make other models sell similarly (if possible). They further look and see that a vast majority of the top selling competition are skirmish games (40K, WarmaHordes, Malifaux, etc" and take from that "Skirmish games popular"

The resulting decision are 1) bring in "Fantasy Space Marines" on the fantasy side and 2) make everything related somehow to Space Marines in 40k and 3) change fantasy to skirmish.

Will some of that work? Sure it can. However, it'd help to understand why people like Space Marines to understand whether simply dropping the concept into fantasy would mean similar appeal and similar sales.

Now is that the proper way to analyze their data, hell nah. I suspect there are people there that do a great professional job at making those kinds of analysis but from the outside, it looks like my 6th grade example above.

It doesn't appear to me that they have tried to understand why Space Marines are popular in the Sci Fi setting. Were they to do so, they'd have also likely surmised that the popularity wouldn't follow to fantasy.

They also didn't seem to understand why other skirmish games were popular vs WFB and whether the WFB would rather play skirmish vs ranks and files. Had they done that, they'd have concentrated on improving, simplifying and making WFB more affordable or accessible. I stand by the proposition that most folks interest in GW skirmish already play it in 40k and weren't interest in a fantasy game.

Lastly, where they were right is that there was a huge market for more Sci Fi marines. 30K type models were a rarity and only a few of us have lots of old metals with the prior marine styles. Making them en masse rather than the fewer more expensive yet highly sought after Forge World productions was a great idea. Not co-opting the game system was an even better one.

Spiney Norman
11-11-2015, 22:26
Lastly, where they were right is that there was a huge market for more Sci Fi marines. 30K type models were a rarity and only a few of us have lots of old metals with the prior marine styles. Making them en masse rather than the fewer more expensive yet highly sought after Forge World productions was a great idea. Not co-opting the game system was an even better one.

I pretty much agree, although I can't help but feel they stumbled on an incredibly successful product in Betrayal at Calth pretty much *by accident*. People have been asking for plastic heresy marines for years and have been cheerfully ignored until now. I can't tell you how relieved I am that GW main won't be taking the rules in house, currently FW's heresy books are the one remaining bright spot in the great wide sea of intolerable nonsense that is contemporary 40k.

It's funny but BoLS posted what was claimed to be a GW formation for heresy marines that turned out to be someone's home-made thing and not anything official. I was spitting feathers until I got to the bit about shouting 'Fury of the Legion' and then the penny dropped that it was just a troll.

Ben
11-11-2015, 23:26
It does illustrate that BoLs and Faeit will basically put up any old click bait toss.

People need to stop taking them seriously or believing their crap.

Kahadras
12-11-2015, 00:16
While there may be some truth in that, it's also true that if they sold ALL their Ltd eds they'd end up with a whole lot more profit.

Depends on how much GW are gouging customers per book and how many they are actualy selling. Selling ALL the books is only worth it if GW stand to make more profit than they do now.