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jojo-is-a-heretic
09-11-2015, 07:01
Hey folks. Been hearing rumours that after Betrayal at Calth, plastic 30k is going to replace LotR and Hobbit on shelves and become a new standalone game. If that's the case, what 30k models and units would you like to see in plastic?

Personally I'd like a plastic version of the Deimos predator - I love the dome-shaped turret and the extra chunkiness, but not enough to shell out 60 on a FW one. And a more posable plastic Contemptor would be nice too, since the one in BaC is pretty static (not quite as bad as the AoBR dread but not great either)

How about you?

Dosiere
09-11-2015, 07:38
Do we even know anything about this new game? What it's like and how it plays? Surely it's going to be about 95% people using these models with 40K rules or 40K rules+FW?

Regardless, are we talking proper multi-part kits here or more of this starter-box type stuff? It seems like we are going to see mostly starter stuff, as judging from the fact that it's a basically a board game GW wants it to be an entry point into their sci fi ranges.

I would think a proper Imperial Army kit would be awesome.

MagicHat
09-11-2015, 08:47
Do we even know anything about this new game? What it's like and how it plays? Surely it's going to be about 95% people using these models with 40K rules or 40K rules+FW?

Regardless, are we talking proper multi-part kits here or more of this starter-box type stuff? It seems like we are going to see mostly starter stuff, as judging from the fact that it's a basically a board game GW wants it to be an entry point into their sci fi ranges.

I would think a proper Imperial Army kit would be awesome.

Battle of Calth are multi-part kits.

I think the most sensible steps would be Mk6 armour (already exists in plastic) and Deimos vehicles.

adreal
09-11-2015, 08:53
I would like the basic core legion list to be plastic (we already have a good start) and follow up plastics for mechanicus and the solar auxiliaries or whatever guard are called.

Once we have that maybe a third (or fourth) red book with lists for orks and eldar for the time period (eldar mixed with dark eldar, orks closer to feral orks)

Even if gw don't convert the forge world rules over, and stick with the board game rules, I hope forge world continue with the good work they have been doing

Bloodknight
09-11-2015, 08:59
Regardless, are we talking proper multi-part kits here

They're the real deal.

Smooth Boy
09-11-2015, 11:52
Mark 6 would be nice for my Crimson Fist veterans. Failing that I'd like to see land raider proteus and the old rhino's make it to plastic.

Lord Damocles
09-11-2015, 12:25
A plastic MkII Land Raider to match the Epic 40K model .

Malagor
09-11-2015, 12:37
Plastic spartans and fellblade. I have heard from the various 30k players that those tanks are a pain to build due to the tracks being all warped.
Them in plastic would make me want to buy them.

MagicHat
09-11-2015, 13:32
Plastic spartans and fellblade. I have heard from the various 30k players that those tanks are a pain to build due to the tracks being all warped.
Them in plastic would make me want to buy them.

Spartans are now made with the track already on the tank, so it should be alright now. Don't know about the Fellblade.

Ironbone
09-11-2015, 14:12
My wish is simple - Imperial Army :D !

furrie
09-11-2015, 14:27
some none imperial armies

Samguk Yusa
09-11-2015, 14:39
A plastic model of the emperor ( if their is not one already)

Malagor
09-11-2015, 14:55
Spartans are now made with the track already on the tank, so it should be alright now. Don't know about the Fellblade.
Oh well that's good. Fellblade should be plastic then.
Also, sell the books through the GW site so we can get free shipping without having to pay a fortune.

Casper Hawser
09-11-2015, 14:57
I would like the basic core legion list to be plastic (we already have a good start) and follow up plastics for mechanicus and the solar auxiliaries or whatever guard are called.

Once we have that maybe a third (or fourth) red book with lists for orks and eldar for the time period (eldar mixed with dark eldar, orks closer to feral orks)

Even if gw don't convert the forge world rules over, and stick with the board game rules, I hope forge world continue with the good work they have been doing

I don't know a lot about craft world Eldar but hadn't they already separated from there Dark brethren by the time the great crusade had started. I thought they left before Slaanesh awoke.
I don't think Orks will have changed that much either.
It says in Horus Heresy betrayal that unit sizes can be doubled for other races against 30k armies I don't know how much more is needed.
It would be nice to create other races that were made extinct by the great crusade but that wouldn't be the Horus Heresy that would be the Great Crusade.


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Karhedron
09-11-2015, 15:25
I would like to see some Mk2/3 Marines down the line. The Maximus Marines are nice but the armour looks too much like the Mk6. I fancy a few squads of real vintage power armour. :)

Okuto
09-11-2015, 19:34
I'd rather like some art portraying the non-imperial human factions, just examples would be nice.

Model-wise, a hover rhino would be nice or just a basic HH rhino kit, Just want vehicle kits mainly

MajorWesJanson
10-11-2015, 05:04
Mk III marines
Mk IV Assault Marines
Bullock Pattern Jetbikes
Rapier gun platform
Mk I Land Raider
Deimos Rhino
Deimos Predator
Mk IV Legion Command kit- parts to make a command squad or number of consuls- bits for apothecary/chief Medicae, Standard Bearer, Moritat/Vigilator, Master of Signal/Praevian
Mk III Librarian
Sicaran/Sicaran Venator

insectum7
10-11-2015, 16:43
some none imperial armies

Yeah. . . or something. It's kinda funny that a major complaint with 40K is too much focus on marines, and then a bunch of people love HH.

Anyways, as a guy who already has a ton of marines, I don't think I'll start a new collection. If 30K winds up being a thing around here, it appears I can put together a pretty solid force using a Legion that can take a lot of Veteran squads, which are essentially 40 Tactical squad equivalents. Then buy another Proteus (in the form of the old plastic kit off ebay) or two.

the1stpip
11-11-2015, 00:15
Seeing as how a lot of the HH models are a nod back to RT, I'd like to see FW do something with Squats!

I don't care if it is a re-imagining (we know how much GW hated the old concept) but I reckon us hoary veterans would snap them up!

Ben
11-11-2015, 22:33
Mk II or III marines.
Deimos Predators (stuff like Heavy Conversion Beamer and Melta Cannon options).
Sicarans.
Boarding shield marines.

MaliGn
12-11-2015, 00:19
I reckon vehicles aren't very likely, at least in the short term, the only non-forgeworld Heresy game couldn't use them, so there's no point. Things like assault marines and devastators wouldn't work, but breachers might. As might rapiers, it depends on how (if) they expand betrayal at calth. The forgeworld game is irrelevant to what GW will produce, at least for now.

march10k
12-11-2015, 15:57
Weren't xenos kind of a non-entity at the time of the Horus Heresy? I mean, present on the fringes, but with humanity so overwhelmingly powerful... I could see a want for non-imperial humies, but I fail to see how they can't be adequately represented by existing auxilia rules...there's no reason you couldn't field orks, deldar, and kroot mercs...they seem to fit with the times...maybe even regular eldar...nids and tau would seem to be the only ones that wouldn't fit.

duffybear1988
12-11-2015, 16:11
Imperial Army troops in the style of the old Rogue Trader ones, but with better proportions would be awesome. Or a squad of 20 Solar Auxilia that don't cost 70 + postage. :wtf:

totgeboren
12-11-2015, 16:18
mk.V marines is all I would get excited about. But on the other hand, "more marines". *yawn*

jojo-is-a-heretic
27-11-2015, 20:06
Site has a new thing up advertising 'The Beast Arises' which it says is going to be set sometime in the 32nd Millenium, so rather than this being all Horus-Heresy-era, i think they're gonna do like a 'History of the Imperium/40k' thing - major events set between HH and 40k

The Black Shield
27-11-2015, 20:57
Let's have the Scouring or full on Chaos units for the Battle of Calth.

SuperHappyTime
28-11-2015, 05:17
How about you?

A giant flashing red arrow that points me to where I find these rules So I can get some grasp of what game I'll be collecting. Because every one of you are terrible at making that **** abundantly clear.

Vos
28-11-2015, 10:04
I'd like to see Orks, and Space Wolves, both done in 30K style.
I'd also like to see/know what's happening with the rules. Some of my friends claim that the red books are going defunct/being updated as there is going to be a new Horus Heresy set of official rules? Anyone else heard this?

Vos

Spiney Norman
28-11-2015, 14:09
I'd like to see Orks, and Space Wolves, both done in 30K style.
I'd also like to see/know what's happening with the rules. Some of my friends claim that the red books are going defunct/being updated as there is going to be a new Horus Heresy set of official rules? Anyone else heard this?

Vos
Space wolves are definitely coming, although they keep getting put back apparently, Orks I'm not so sure, surely 30k orks are fairly similar to the 40k variety aren't they? I mean FW didn't see any need to re-write the daemon codex for use in 40k so I don't see why you can't just use the Ork one too (well except that it was produced by the 40k design studio which means it's probably a steaming pile of manure).

Sounds like nothing more than scare-mongering, from what FW have said they've got a book coming out in February and are still working on the Prospero book so it seems unlikely that development of the game will be taken off them and given over to the clueless mooks in the 40k studio. Having said that the Red books will become progressively more and more out-dated the more books FW release, the word bearers section of the Isstvan Campaign legions book is already out of date for example, following their update in Tempest.

The Black Shield
28-11-2015, 22:19
30K Orks were much larger and more advanced than 40K Orks. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ullanor_Crusade There is also the entry in Horus Heresy : Book One Betrayal the entry The Gorro Hollowing.

Still Standing
28-11-2015, 22:42
I only want one thing. Is just a small thing. I've been waiting for or for years. We were promised it years ago. Give me my *********** Thousand Sons rules!


A giant flashing red arrow that points me to where I find these rules So I can get some grasp of what game I'll be collecting. Because every one of you are terrible at making that **** abundantly clear.

30k is just 40k with an alternate army list and FoC.

Spiney Norman
28-11-2015, 23:30
A giant flashing red arrow that points me to where I find these rules So I can get some grasp of what game I'll be collecting. Because every one of you are terrible at making that **** abundantly clear.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Legion-Astartes-Gamers-Collection 223226

ToLongDidntRead
02-12-2015, 15:50
Space wolves are definitely coming, although they keep getting put back apparently, Orks I'm not so sure, surely 30k orks are fairly similar to the 40k variety aren't they? I mean FW didn't see any need to re-write the daemon codex for use in 40k so I don't see why you can't just use the Ork one too (well except that it was produced by the 40k design studio which means it's probably a steaming pile of manure).

.

Based on reports from events. GW sees 30k Orks as being at the height of their power. Between the fall of the Eldar, and the rise of the Imperium, Irks were the dominant species in the galaxy. This means an Ok Boy was the size of a current Ork Nob during that period. They also had better tech. Better everything really.

Calyptra
04-12-2015, 13:06
Xenos.

Some people are saying we can just use our 40k codices. I guess, but since it's a game that wasn't written with our armies in mind, and a story that has nothing to do with us, why bother?

The Black Shield
05-12-2015, 20:39
If you are playing a game for fun, who cares about fluff or narrative. If it is enjoyable I say do it.

Azazyll
06-12-2015, 19:18
CWEldar and DEldar are not nearly the same as their 40k equivalents - had they had time to develop aspect warriors, haemonculi, etc? Iyanden supplement was clear ghost warriors had not yet been created, but that book is a fluff nightmare (like saying the Fall happened in M32). Might the Corsairs list better represent that time period?

Still Standing
06-12-2015, 20:12
If you are playing a game for fun, who cares about fluff or narrative. If it is enjoyable I say do it.

I think you got that the wrong way around...

Moirdryd
06-12-2015, 20:14
The Fall happened well before the Horus Heresy and probably before the Dark Age of Technology. The Aspect Temples and activities of the Dark Eldar are very very old, so with the exception of the Ghost Warriors (which happened after the Tyranids hit the known galaxy) most of the Eldar Stuff is valid. Iirc Eldrad even speaks of the Emperor as having met him as a younger "man".

Calyptra
06-12-2015, 21:53
Ok. I play Dark Eldar. Until Forge World gives me a reason to care about 30k, I will continue not caring about 30k.

The Black Shield
06-12-2015, 22:00
How exactly do I have it the wrong way around?

Azazyll
06-12-2015, 23:03
The Fall happened well before the Horus Heresy and probably before the Dark Age of Technology. The Aspect Temples and activities of the Dark Eldar are very very old, so with the exception of the Ghost Warriors (which happened after the Tyranids hit the known galaxy) most of the Eldar Stuff is valid. Iirc Eldrad even speaks of the Emperor as having met him as a younger "man".

Nope. Current CWEldar dex places the Fall in M31, by which they mean just before the Great Crusade. Long established lore attributes the Warp Storms of the Age of Strife to the gestation of Slaanesh, and their end came with its birth and the Fall, immediately followed by the Great Crusade. That leaves very little time for the creation of the aspect shrines and numerous other elements of distinctively post-Fall CWEldar civilization (of course some of the Craft Worlds predate the Fall, but the aspects do not, as established in the novel Asurmen).

Wraith Constructs have also now been established to have predated Kraken significantly, only increasing in use due to that catastrophe. The Iyanden supplement (which has numerous problems with the exact dates it gives) establishes that spirit stones were only discovered a couple of millennia after the Fall, but Wraith constructs were developed shortly thereafter. This however conflicts with Angel Exterminatus, where Perturabo and Fulgrim encounter "Eldar revenant constructs" on a Crone World which, again, because the Great Crusade happened immediately after the Fall, would have only been a few hundred years old.

Moreover DEldar society was radically changed by Vect's overthrow of the noble houses and the creation of the Kabals millennia after the Fall. How much the rest of DEldar society changed aside from that is difficult to know - the Haemonculi covens and Wych cults likely existed, but in what form is difficult to say. We know that Solarite cults, now referenced only obliquely with the Scourges, were formerly much more important before Vect's revoluton.

All of which is to say that there are numerous canon conflicts with the details of Eldar history, but that they were clearly quite different in the 31st millennium so shortly after the Fall.

Spiney Norman
06-12-2015, 23:33
CWEldar and DEldar are not nearly the same as their 40k equivalents - had they had time to develop aspect warriors, haemonculi, etc? Iyanden supplement was clear ghost warriors had not yet been created, but that book is a fluff nightmare (like saying the Fall happened in M32). Might the Corsairs list better represent that time period?

You might want to read the Horus Heresy books before making a statement like that, there is an encounter between Fulgrim and Eldrad in Fulgrim which basically escalates into a fight and the eldar are using Banshees, dark reapers a wraith Lord AND an avatar at that stage, so I'm guessing the other aspect warrior types were probably in use at this point too.

StrikeDeath
06-12-2015, 23:52
Weren't the Aspects a part of the Eldar culture pre-Fall anyway, similar to how various styles of martial arts groups exists in various countries for us?

Still Standing
07-12-2015, 00:34
Eldar civilisation spanned over 65 million years. The culmination of their fall from grace is a fixed point (when the Empire went boom), but the build up to that surely happened over thousands of years before that, probably hundreds of thousands of years. The Craftworlders "saw it coming", so could have left millennia before the Eye appeared.


How exactly do I have it the wrong way around?

If you're not playing the game for the background, aren't you just power gaming? How is that a friendly game?

Azazyll
07-12-2015, 00:36
You might want to read the Horus Heresy books before making a statement like that, there is an encounter between Fulgrim and Eldrad in Fulgrim which basically escalates into a fight and the eldar are using Banshees, dark reapers a wraith Lord AND an avatar at that stage, so I'm guessing the other aspect warrior types were probably in use at this point too.

Ugh, GW, FW and BL are doing an absolutely miserable job communicating about this. GW firmly maintains the Fall happened in M31 (or M32 if you read the error-riddled Iyanden), which means there cannot be aspect warriors at such a meeting. Moreover, Iyanden says there are no spirit stones or wraith constructs before over a thousand years after the Fall (M33 given there, but given the previous error this is again suspect), making the events of Angel Exterminatus impossible. But even the internal logic is inconsistent. The novel Asurmen clearly states that the first Phoenix Lord did not even begin training the Asurya in the ways of the aspects until after the Fall, giving him precious little time to do so and for these disciples to spread their teaching after the destruction of Asur before the meeting you describe with Fulgrim, at the most a few hundred years to establish all of those traditions in an incredibly chaotic situation across disparate craftworlds still reeling from the Fall.


Weren't the Aspects a part of the Eldar culture pre-Fall anyway, similar to how various styles of martial arts groups exists in various countries for us?

There were certainly existing ideas, but the novel Asurmen makes it clear they were not established in their present form until after the Fall. In fact they only dispersed to the vrious craftworlds after the destruction of the first shrine on Asur, which in some places is said to happen during the Fall and in more recent lore after it.

Basically, Eldar canon is a mess, and no one at BL or GW seems to give a crap. Unlike Imperial history, which has clearly been tightly plotted out down to the year and the order the Primarchs were discovered in, the Eldar lore is a free for all of whatever the current author thinks with little to no coordination or research into previous canon.

Spiney Norman
07-12-2015, 08:43
Ugh, GW, FW and BL are doing an absolutely miserable job communicating about this. GW firmly maintains the Fall happened in M31 (or M32 if you read the error-riddled Iyanden), which means there cannot be aspect warriors at such a meeting. Moreover, Iyanden says there are no spirit stones or wraith constructs before over a thousand years after the Fall (M33 given there, but given the previous error this is again suspect), making the events of Angel Exterminatus impossible. But even the internal logic is inconsistent. The novel Asurmen clearly states that the first Phoenix Lord did not even begin training the Asurya in the ways of the aspects until after the Fall, giving him precious little time to do so and for these disciples to spread their teaching after the destruction of Asur before the meeting you describe with Fulgrim, at the most a few hundred years to establish all of those traditions in an incredibly chaotic situation across disparate craftworlds still reeling from the Fall.


Imperial history does give us a more precise time frame, the fall occurred towards the end of M30 and was the direct cause of the end of the warp storms which caused the age of strife, so the commencement of the great crusade coincides pretty much exactly with the aftermath of the fall. The great crusade lasts for 200 years or so which means when Lorgar travels into the eye of terror in the First Heretic he sees the remnants of the eldar empire around 150 years after its fall.

It is well established that most of the still existent craftworlds left the empire some time before the fall (since the ones which didn't make it far enough away from the core worlds were destroyed by the psychic shock wave of Slaanesh's birth). I guess it depends whether the shrines were established on the craftworlds when they left or afterwards, but IMO it doesn't seem impossible that the shrines of ulthwe were established prior to Istvann III, even if they were very new at that point.

As far as wraith-tech and soul stones go I guess I assumed that the eldar came up with that tech pretty soon after the fall as a measure to keep their souls safe from Slaanesh, are you saying that for several thousand years after the fall the eldar had no way of retaining the souls of their dead from the clutches of Slaanesh?

The Black Shield
07-12-2015, 09:17
How is it power gaming? If someone want to try their Eldar against someones Legion army, what is wrong with that. They are not playing in a campaign or tournament. So 30K has a few weapons that are not available in 40K. All you have to do is discuss it like an adult with the opposing player as to what is acceptable, just like most players do who using Forge World units that are not a part of their respective army Codex.

Still Standing
07-12-2015, 11:12
How is it power gaming? If someone want to try their Eldar against someones Legion army, what is wrong with that. They are not playing in a campaign or tournament. So 30K has a few weapons that are not available in 40K. All you have to do is discuss it like an adult with the opposing player as to what is acceptable, just like most players do who using Forge World units that are not a part of their respective army Codex.

Playing Eldar vs Legions is fluffy. Ignore what had been said above, there are many examples (as stated above) of Legions fighting Craftworlders including Aspects and Wraith. Remember, the Eldar can manipulate time and space. They can spend a thousand years in the Webway and emerge before they left. Eldar fluff is purposefully contradictory. If you assume everything is written from an Imperial perspective it all makes much more sense.

Azazyll
07-12-2015, 14:34
I guess it depends whether the shrines were established on the craftworlds when they left or afterwards, but IMO it doesn't seem impossible that the shrines of ulthwe were established prior to Istvann III, even if they were very new at that point.

The recent Black Library release of Asurmen places the creation of the aspects after the Fall. And the aspects only proliferate after the destruction of Asur, after the Fall. That's not a lot of time for a race that measures it's lifespan in millennia, but it is possible. I'd just like to see some serious working through these issues, preferably by Alan Bligh, who actually seems capable of keeping multiple ideas in his head at once.


As far as wraith-tech and soul stones go I guess I assumed that the eldar came up with that tech pretty soon after the fall as a measure to keep their souls safe from Slaanesh, are you saying that for several thousand years after the fall the eldar had no way of retaining the souls of their dead from the clutches of Slaanesh?

Yup, that's what Iyanden says - for a long time every dead Eldar soul was devoured by Slaanesh, no spirit stones, no infinity circuit. Someone from Iyanden then finally went to the Croneworlds to collect waystones for the first time, and the technology eventually percolated to the other craftworlds. Terrible, terrible book; says the Fall happened in M32. Also, terrible background narrative - every villain who isn't a Tyranid is a traitor marine (not a CSM, but from a former loyalist legion).

insectum7
07-12-2015, 14:44
If you're not playing the game for the background, aren't you just power gaming?

Maybe it's just gaming.

Calyptra
09-12-2015, 09:27
The first of the Kabals wasn't founded until M33, and Vect doesn't take control of the Dark City until M35. Dark Eldar would have been quite different.

Spiney Norman
09-12-2015, 15:35
I've been talking owner of my LGS who has a lot of contacts in the industry (including at GW HQ), he has apparently heard that individual boxed sets of Mkiv marines, cataphractii and the dreadnought will be available fairly early in the new year, along with a Deimos pattern rhino.

daveNYC
09-12-2015, 19:34
Angel Exterminatus has Eldar stuff that makes absolutely zero sense. It's a crone world just a few centuries after the Fall that's got a heap of wraith constructs and big pile of occupied spirit stones. All for the vaguely stated purpose of bribing Slaanesh into leaving some group of Eldar alone. Or something like that, there's not much detail given as to an actual purpose for the planet other than as a cool setting for the book's climax. So some group of Eldar developed soulstones, offed thousands of Eldar to fill them up, built piles of wraith units, then stuck the whole lot of everything on a crone world as part of a bribery scheme for an elder abomination. Which would be like offering someone a bribe when you already left the cash on their kitchen table.

Time in the Eye of Terror is flexible, but when you pull something this silly you can't just go TIME TRAVEL! and hope the wave the problem away.

StrikeDeath
09-12-2015, 19:47
Time in the Eye of Terror is flexible, but when you pull something this silly you can't just go TIME TRAVEL! and hope the wave the problem away.

Think of that world as one of Slaanesh's (many) twisted fantasies in action. Considering the Legion that's signing up with he/she/it* goes kind of nuts/ecstatic/'something'* when tearing them down/fighting them. Less Timey-Wimey, more... "Ewww really?"

*delete as appropriate for your gender/love of Skulls.

The Black Shield
09-12-2015, 23:35
I don't remember them being left as an offering to Slaanesh. Fulgrim used them as an offering not the Eldar.

Still Standing
09-12-2015, 23:59
The Crone Worldso have always had chaos Eldar on them. They are called Grey Eldar and are described aso "the most powerful servants of chaos" in Realms of Chaos. Suck it Primarchs.

Goatboy
10-12-2015, 20:25
I've been talking owner of my LGS who has a lot of contacts in the industry (including at GW HQ), he has apparently heard that individual boxed sets of Mkiv marines, cataphractii and the dreadnought will be available fairly early in the new year, along with a Deimos pattern rhino.
Fingers crossed that the Contemptor is a different kit. The one in the BaC box is ok for the game but not as a separate release.

Spiney Norman
10-12-2015, 22:50
Fingers crossed that the Contemptor is a different kit. The one in the BaC box is ok for the game but not as a separate release.

I was thinking the same thing actually, it would be nice to have a few different weapon load outs (not to mention a less-static pose), obviously we all know that a kheres gives the best bang for buck, but autocannon, lascannon, plasma cannon and volkite culverin would be really nice options.

Saunders
11-12-2015, 05:46
Ahhhhhh, my personal pet-peeve. Black Library does a terrible job with Eldar continuity in the Horus Heresy era. It's only now that we're really getting any sort of background to fill in the gap (see: Gav Thorpe's Asurmen, which tells a story that coincides with a timeline of the Fall). Very, very little of Craftworld life is a reflection of pre-Fall Eldar.

If we consider that the Fall was what precipitated the rise of the Imperium, a number of things must happen before the craftworlds are a recognizable entity. Asurmen founds the Shrine of Asur on a barren world, and gathers his first students. There, he devotes his life to Khaine and teaches his students how to fight. He comes up with the Path system. He establishes the Path of the Warrior. His first students establish the Aspects of Khaine. The Shrine of Asur draws more refugees and grows in power. At some point, he must meet with representatives of the Craftworlds and share his philosophy. He founds the first Dire Avenger Shrines on the Craftworlds, and I would imagine that the Craftworlds themselves would refine the Path system in other regards. Somewhere along the way, the Phoenix Lord Arhra breaks ranks. He falls to chaos and leads a daemonhost to raze the Shrine of Asur. Asurmen's disciples are scattered, and the true proliferation begins.

The Craftworlds began as refugees abandoning an Eldar Empire on the brink of collapse. I can't imagine they were much more than that up to the Horus Heresy. We imagine the Phoenix Lords as incredibly ancient beings who have lived thousands of lives, but they're scarcely older than the Primarchs in the grand scheme of things. Without spoiling the story of Asurmen, he was a bit of a self-absorbed youth when the Fall occurred. It took some time beyond that for him to even find his true calling.

TL;DR I don't like that Craftworld Eldar in the Horus Heresy era are portrayed just as Craftworld Eldar in the 41st millenium. They would have barely gotten their acts together by then, and GW shoots itself in the foot by insisting that the Fall is immediately proceded by the Great Crusade.

Karhedron
11-12-2015, 10:06
Might the Corsairs list better represent that time period?

That is actually a really good idea. It has all the elements that are recognisably Eldarish but without the rigid demarcation between factions and troop types that characterise the Eldar factions in the 41st millennium.

Zywus
11-12-2015, 12:53
Ahhhhhh, my personal pet-peeve. Black Library does a terrible job with Eldar continuity in the Horus Heresy era. It's only now that we're really getting any sort of background to fill in the gap (see: Gav Thorpe's Asurmen, which tells a story that coincides with a timeline of the Fall). Very, very little of Craftworld life is a reflection of pre-Fall Eldar.

If we consider that the Fall was what precipitated the rise of the Imperium, a number of things must happen before the craftworlds are a recognizable entity. Asurmen founds the Shrine of Asur on a barren world, and gathers his first students. There, he devotes his life to Khaine and teaches his students how to fight. He comes up with the Path system. He establishes the Path of the Warrior. His first students establish the Aspects of Khaine. The Shrine of Asur draws more refugees and grows in power. At some point, he must meet with representatives of the Craftworlds and share his philosophy. He founds the first Dire Avenger Shrines on the Craftworlds, and I would imagine that the Craftworlds themselves would refine the Path system in other regards. Somewhere along the way, the Phoenix Lord Arhra breaks ranks. He falls to chaos and leads a daemonhost to raze the Shrine of Asur. Asurmen's disciples are scattered, and the true proliferation begins.

The Craftworlds began as refugees abandoning an Eldar Empire on the brink of collapse. I can't imagine they were much more than that up to the Horus Heresy. We imagine the Phoenix Lords as incredibly ancient beings who have lived thousands of lives, but they're scarcely older than the Primarchs in the grand scheme of things. Without spoiling the story of Asurmen, he was a bit of a self-absorbed youth when the Fall occurred. It took some time beyond that for him to even find his true calling.

TL;DR I don't like that Craftworld Eldar in the Horus Heresy era are portrayed just as Craftworld Eldar in the 41st millenium. They would have barely gotten their acts together by then, and GW shoots itself in the foot by insisting that the Fall is immediately proceed by the Great Crusade.
I don't know if there's fluff directly contrary tho this but; couldn't much of the development of the craftworld culture have happened already before the fall?
The craftworlds did start to leave quite some time before the fall since they realized the way stuff were going. Even without a Slaanesh preying on their souls, the craftworlders still would have needed to cope with the whole eldar-mind-taking-things-to it's-excess business.

The Black Shield
11-12-2015, 15:37
We are getting a little off topic with the Eldar conversation.

Azazyll
11-12-2015, 17:53
We are getting a little off topic with the Eldar conversation.

It is a big part of what people would like to see in 30k.

I also want Skitarii ported into 30k. And some handwaving to allow the Sidonian knights, who were stupidly postdated to a later millennium.

More admech all around really

Saunders
11-12-2015, 19:34
Indeed, this very much pertains to 30k. I would some day like to see a 30k Eldar list, which unlike Orks would feel very different. The Eldar of the 31st millenium would be decidedly more vulnerable that in the 41st millenium. We're not dealing with hosts of zealous Aspect Warriors and well-trained militias, but the haunted remnants of a gutted society that spent their lives without having to lift a finger, much less go to war.


I don't know if there's fluff directly contrary tho this but; couldn't much of the development of the craftworld culture have happened already before the fall?
The craftworlds did start to leave quite some time before the fall since they realized the way stuff were going. Even without a Slaanesh preying on their souls, the craftworlders still would have needed to cope with the whole eldar-mind-taking-things-to it's-excess business.

By large, the Craftworlds fled as Empire society began circling the drain. The exodites, on the other hand, began leaving after the first signs of deep-rooted decadence began to manifest. Quoting from Codex: Dark Eldar (p7) for perspective,
"Amongst the last to escape were the forefathers of the Craftworld Eldar. As their society became ever more depraved, they recoiled in horror from what their once-noble kin had become. Realising that they stood upon the brink, they turned their considerable resources to the construction of immense craftworlds: graceful space-cities the size of small moons. The Eldar of the Craftworlds fled into the void, desperate to escape from the punishment that must surely fall upon their race. Some would even succeed. Those left behind jeered at the craven flight and narrow minds of their departed cousins."

This was shortly followed by the collapse of Eldar society within the empire, and the birth of Slaanesh.

The Craftworld Eldar codex timeline places the exodus in M30-31, beginning with the exodites, and the fall at M31. That would mean the Craftworlds in the very best case had a few hundred years of travel preceding the Fall, and when you take into account the lifespan of the Eldar it is scarcely time enough to escape Slaanesh's birth with their lives (many Craftworlds did not make it out)

The Black Shield
11-12-2015, 21:44
If we are talking about The Battle of Calth game, then yes I agree that currently you cannot use Eldar or any other race as they do not have rules. If you wish to test your Eldar, Ork, Necron, or even Tau army against a Legion army in a game at your local FLGS, club, or at home, I do not see a problem. I have read many battle reports where people have done this. The Horus Heresy is a supplement of 40K. It even says so on page 3 of Horus Heresy Book One: Betrayal.

Saunders
11-12-2015, 22:08
What I'm trying to say is that 30k Eldar would be different than 40k eldar, so it's not as simple as saying one can simply play using the Craftworld Eldar codex.

Same with the Dark Eldar. Asdrubael Vect wasn't even alive during the Horus Heresy, and Commorragh's forces would also look radically different.

Azazyll
12-12-2015, 15:40
Indeed. If we're buying into the sort of silly notion that one can play historical battles in a far future fantasy universe, which is the premise of 30k, then playing your 30k legions list against the CWEldar codex is "anachronistic" in the same general way that playing Tau or nids would be, albeit on a lesser scale. It does not conform to the underlying fluff of 30k. What many players want is for xenos to receive the same treatment as Space Marines (I mean not the general background anti-SM whine found on these forums and specifically a way to join in the 30k fun in a manner that matches the underlying tone of the setting).

This may not have been the intention of the OP but it certainly fits the wording of the thread title.

Still Standing
12-12-2015, 21:37
Many of us play 30k purely because we don't have to put up with the Xenos codeci though. In recent years the majority of the imbalance comes from Eldar, Tau and Necrons.

Spiney Norman
12-12-2015, 23:22
Many of us play 30k purely because we don't have to put up with the Xenos codeci though. In recent years the majority of the imbalance comes from Eldar, Tau and Necrons.

Right because 40k space marines are so perfectly balanced, a full battle company with free drop pods? The sky hammer formation?

Being xeno or imperial does not denote good or bad balance, being written by the clueless oafs that don't give a toss about game balance which inhabit the 40k studio is what torpedoes game balance, if Forgeworld came out with a 30k eldar or Ork supplement I'm pretty confident it would be awesome.

On the other hand, from a narrative perspective, other than a few very occasional minor appearances xeno races play no part in the Heresy which is essentially an inter-Legionary war with sideshows of the mechanicum and imperial army. I do feel like adding xeno lists just for the sake of it would distract from the narrative of the heresy rather than add anything meaningful to it.

If we were living in a perfect world where 40k wasn't such an unbalanced ****-hole of a game then I'd say that trying to shoe-horn era-specific eldar or orks into the heresy just to placate xeno players (who probably should be playing 40k if we're being completely honest) seems a bit of a waste of time, but as someone with a couple of xeno armies myself I can understand wanting to be able to use them in a game that isn't a pile of ****.


What I'm trying to say is that 30k Eldar would be different than 40k eldar, so it's not as simple as saying one can simply play using the Craftworld Eldar codex.

Same with the Dark Eldar. Asdrubael Vect wasn't even alive during the Horus Heresy, and Commorragh's forces would also look radically different.

It's probably just as well that Vect is no longer an option for DE players then ;) in all honesty I don't think the Kabal system changed a great deal about how dark eldar organise themselves on the battlefield, it was more of a societal change, most of the noble houses simply reinvented themselves as 'Kabals' anyway, it's probably quite likely that household warriors in the years before Vect took over would have looked very much like kabalite Warriors do now.

Still Standing
12-12-2015, 23:43
I don't play any sort of 40k armies. However, aside from the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, I've not heard too much complaining about 40k Marines.

Azazyll
13-12-2015, 14:26
Many of us play 30k purely because we don't have to put up with the Xenos codeci though. In recent years the majority of the imbalance comes from Eldar, Tau and Necrons.

Fair enough. The ease of 30k is it's automatically balanced by having the two sides be basically identical. That'll change as time goes along and more factions get added regardless though. Right now admech and auxilia are relatively minor, but they'll each keep expanding, plus we'll get sisters of silence, custodes, more daemons, etc

Goatboy
13-12-2015, 17:47
Hey folks. Been hearing rumours that after Betrayal at Calth, plastic 30k is going to replace LotR and Hobbit on shelves and become a new standalone game. If that's the case, what 30k models and units would you like to see in plastic?
I don't think there's anything already in 30k that I wouldn't want to see in plastic. The closest is my general ambivalence towards a plastic Thunderhawk as I'd rather have a plastic Fellblade kit if given the choice.

Casper Hawser
15-12-2015, 20:52
I think half the problem is people calling it 30k it's the Horus Heresy. When it's finished maybe they'll do the great crusade and introduce alien races that are made extinct and do stuff for Eldar and Orks.
30k is a very broad timeline that encompasses most of the Imperium's history.


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Azazyll
16-12-2015, 03:50
Considering the new direction BL is going I think post-heresy scouring is more likely than Great Crusade. Plus by the time we're done making the legions all gribbly and chaosy that'll be the next logical place to go.

And again, still fits the thread title question. What a lot of people want is Xenos.

Kaiserdean
17-12-2015, 21:30
And again, still fits the thread title question. What a lot of people want is Xenos.

I agree with that.

It does strike me as funny though that in a game of humanity's civil war, people want play armies that aren't closely involved. It would be like if there were a game that was based on the events of the American Civil War and players getting upset that they can't play France. Was France involved in the ACW? Sure, but ...

Azazyll
17-12-2015, 22:20
True, but the American Civil War actually happened. It's not the IP of a company, it can't be expanded or retconned (well, that's not entirely true, unfortunately, but you see my point). It would be very easy to do some handwaving and show how Xenos were important behind the scenes or some such. We're not even close to Terra yet, and the outline of what we know of the decade long war is very spotty. It would be incredibly simple to add more xenos, if they had a mind to do so.

Kaiserdean
17-12-2015, 22:38
True, but the American Civil War actually happened. It's not the IP of a company, it can't be expanded or retconned (well, that's not entirely true, unfortunately, but you see my point). It would be very easy to do some handwaving and show how Xenos were important behind the scenes or some such. We're not even close to Terra yet, and the outline of what we know of the decade long war is very spotty. It would be incredibly simple to add more xenos, if they had a mind to do so.

That's true, but you get my point. Would a game about the Eldar Fall with DE, Craftworlds and Harly's have Imperial Guard options?

Although, I do think that there should be a little more Eldrad/eldar in the Heresy story.

StrikeDeath
18-12-2015, 01:36
It would be very easy to do some handwaving and show how Xenos were important behind the scenes or some such. We're not even close to Terra yet, and the outline of what we know of the decade long war is very spotty. It would be incredibly simple to add more xenos, if they had a mind to do so.

Why the handwaiving to make Xenos players important in an area of the lore that isn't focused on them? Please don't take this the wrong way, I'd have no problem with a Forgeworld total re-design for the Eldar/Orks (so you're not just porting over those books that are obviously not balanced against the other 3 potential factions). But the Eldar were still suffering the very recent after-affects of the Fall, other Xenos races that were seeing the (at the time) greatest known military machine turning on itself would have likely stayed the hell out of the way, so why the need to add in Xenos in any major capacity to the lore?

But then I'm biased against adding a new faction simply because the time it would take to do them justice (at least 1 black book) means putting other things on hold. You think the SW and 1K Sons players have been annoyed just look at the DA, BA and WS fans that, if not for getting traits in Book 6 (and only traits - no units, etc.) and consider telling them "oh you guys have to wait even longer before we do anything for you, we need to get this *insert Xenos here* worked out first, and also slot them into the narrative in a meaningful manner".

Saunders
18-12-2015, 02:56
Considering that Forgeworld releases outside the Horus Heresy have been impacted by it for the past 3 years, adding other armies contemporary to the setting to make the it more inclusive would be worth having a couple legions wait a little longer.

Haven't most of the legions been covered already, at any rate? They only started a few years ago.

Still Standing
18-12-2015, 07:53
Considering that Forgeworld releases outside the Horus Heresy have been impacted by it for the past 3 years, adding other armies contemporary to the setting to make the it more inclusive would be worth having a couple legions wait a little longer.

Haven't most of the legions been covered already, at any rate? They only started a few years ago.

As a Thousand Sons player, Xenos players can bloody well wait.

Spiney Norman
18-12-2015, 08:11
I agree with that.

It does strike me as funny though that in a game of humanity's civil war, people want play armies that aren't closely involved. It would be like if there were a game that was based on the events of the American Civil War and players getting upset that they can't play France. Was France involved in the ACW? Sure, but ...

I agree actually, I can't tell you how annoyed I would be if they decided to retcon the storyline of the heresy to add extra aliens in. Messing with the backstory would be the fastest way to decapitate the golden heresy goose. This is the kind of thing which made the old grognards wary of the plastic heresy kit, it brought in a whole swathe of gamers from 40k who don't care about the heresy storyline and just want to play their pet 40k army in a different game.

If you want to play eldar/necrons/tau/orks there is a great game called 40k which is just made for you, so much in fact that eldar and necrons between them have completely ruined the current edition with their grossly OP codexes.

Casper Hawser
18-12-2015, 08:17
It started end of 2012 I think it was around the release of the chaos marine codex. I can understand non fans of marines wanting in on the action but this is something that marine players have wanted for years i can remember the Bill King story back in WD 131 and it was one of the things that made me fall in love with the setting.
Like I've said before it's the Horus Heresy a supplement for 40k use alien races if you want a tomb world that awakened on time an Eldar craft world that left a few 100 years before the fall whatever the Eldars codex says the Black Libary writers have (rightly or wrongly) been writing the Eldar as we see them in the 40k setting.
But please let the legion players who have been waiting for there legion have there legion. Before thinking of adding any Xenos in an imperial civil war.
Being a World Eaters player I'm looking forward to the Space Wolves being done so we can recreate the Night of Wolf so I can kick there ass while they outmanoeuvre me and show that they could have killed Angron. Maybe 10 victory points for Angron's defeat and World Eaters get 1 victory point for each unit destroyed.

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StrikeDeath
18-12-2015, 13:54
Considering that Forgeworld releases outside the Horus Heresy have been impacted by it for the past 3 years, adding other armies contemporary to the setting to make the it more inclusive would be worth having a couple legions wait a little longer.

Haven't most of the legions been covered already, at any rate? They only started a few years ago.

13 out of the 18 Legions have been covered yes. Telling those that are still waiting (myself as a DA player, those 1k Sons and Wolves, etc) to wait longer so they can shoehorn in Xenos however... no, just no.

ToLongDidntRead
19-12-2015, 02:05
I wouldn't mind them doing Xenos in a later Great Crusade/Scouring expansion. But I'd rather they finish the main events of the Heresy first.