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Xaric
11-11-2015, 10:51
First of all pick a mission this is important if you have a campaign book with a realm type its optional to pick it but not 100% needed.
Second use terrain no matter what you should always use terrain if you don't you loose a core aspect to tactics in the game.
Third use terrain special rules mark thease down with some tokens of sort.


Okey to make this guide easyer to understand i will be using the AOS starter box for the aspect of counter vs counter deployment to show how deploying units vs another unit gaining modifyers of success.


Key
++ = Ideal
+ = Nutral
- = Bad


Stormcasts
Hero's
Lord-Celestant (warlord)
Lord-Relictor (Supporting hero)


Elites
Retributors
++ vs Bloodreavers because of there low saves and number of attacks.
+ vs Khorgoraths because of the number of attacks to kill the thing.
- vs Blood warriors because even if a blood warrior dies it will counter attack.


Fast attack
Prosecutors
++ vs Blood warriors because they cant counter attack ranged attacks.
+ vs Bloodreavers because of range and kiting.
- vs Khorgoraths because they can move 6" and hit with a 6" weapon making it the same as prosecutors movement.


Troops
Liberators
++ vs Khorgoraths because of laylow the tyrant.
+ vs Bloodwarriors because of rerolls of 1 to the shield.
- vs Bloodreavers because the rerolling of 1 can olny save you so meny times.



Bloodbound
Hero's
Mighty lord of Khorne (warlord)
Bloodsecrator (Supporting hero)
Bloodstokers (Supporting hero)


Elites
Blood Warriors
++ vs Retributors because even if they die they can counter attack.
+ vs Liberators because you dont have the numbers of attacks and they can block them with there shields rerolling also.
- vs Prosecutors because you dont have ranged and if you die to range your counter attack is wasted.


Troops
Bloodreavers
++ vs Liberators just swarm them with the high number of attacks they can olny block so much.
+ vs Prosecutors you have the numbers to kill them but they can still kite you.
- vs Retributors they will deal huge amounts of damage due to your lacking of saves and there rolls of 6.


Heavy Support
Khorgoraths
++ vs Prosecutors you can stay within range with your ranged weapon due to you have a 6" movment and 6" ranged weapon.
+ vs Retributors comes down to better dice rolls.
- vs Liberators they will block your attacks but also they will hit you more.


As for heros i cant really put them into a selection but what i can explain is what they are good for.


Lord-Celestant (warlord)
Hero type = Aggressive frontline due to his amount of attacks and command ability designed to kill non hero units.


Lord-Relictor (Supporting hero)
Hero type = Supporting from the back ranks situational hero his roll can be to hinder enemy's or support ally's.


Mighty lord of Khorne (warlord)
Hero type = Assassin type designed to kill hero type units he normally would be in the centre of the army and attacks when a opportunity arises.


Bloodsecrator (Supporting hero)
Hero type = Crowd control hero design to provide benefits in a area to boost ally units to change the outcome of the battle.


Bloodstokers (Supporting hero)
Hero type = Supporting hero to give units a upper hand normally supporting from the back.


Now as you can see I have simplified it by labelling each unit into a category but what the new box set is teaching is no matter what type of units you have the modifying victory aspect is around units working together around the use of buffs to each unit and unit vs unit composition.

Formations can also allow you to set up the hole army in 1 deployment or over time see war scroll battalion page 93.

Dosiere
11-11-2015, 12:48
I'm not entirely sure I understand what it going on here. Is the point to balance the game by picking only neutral counters? What about numbers?

Xaric
11-11-2015, 13:44
Okey let me explain the game in steps when you play the game.

Step one pick the mission.
Step two deploy terrain features.
Step three roll off for deployment.
Step four choose what rules the terrain features have by using the chart.

So the Misson is set the terrain features are set but deploying you must be careful because you have no idea what that terrain will give could it be good or could it be bad you will find out when the game starts but another core part of balance is via deployment method as you take it in turns to deploy units don't just throw down a model out of the blue view your enemy's unit and find out what could possibly be good vs it and counter it accordingly with a unit if it is a monster use stuff that is good vs monsters for instance if you don't have any of that use stuff that can block or keep its attention away from your weaker units vs that monster. Positioning of units if you have a unit that was designed to charge and get the first blow because it is technically weak on its saves don't leave it in the open have another unit that was designed to take the blows stand in front of it then when it comes to your turn move that unit aside so those behind it can charge and maximize damage.

lets talk about numbers these can be good and bad at the same time having high numbers can be good if protected by immunity to battle shocks ability's but very bad if not think about it this way

Lets say you have a unit of 10 and you loose 6 models also you don't have immunity to battle shock when it comes to battle shock test you will always loose 1-6 models now this can be more fatal on units with more wounds.

unit with 1 wound and 10 models looses 6 that would be 1-6 additional wounds lost.
unit with 3 wounds and 10 models looses 6 that would be 3-18 additional wounds lost.

Having more then 33% of your enemy models can really destroy you in the end this is why i am against people ignoring sudden death this is to prevent people using high amounts of models the trick to this is view the objectives and pick the one that can guarantee you a win because to get the objective it must be done at the end of deployment so when the other person picks your target he cant very well pick a unit in a position of impossibility so if you get the objective pick accordingly.

Assassinate if he has low hero's and there in a position that means you can kill easy
Blunt pick if they are comprised of weak save models
Endure move a very tank unit to the back and protect him with your life
Seize Ground is a hard one pick it if you know you can rush it the final turn with a flyer

NoobLord
11-11-2015, 13:48
So the objective is set the terrain features are set but deploying you must be careful because you have no idea what that terrain will give could it be good or could it be bad you will find out when the game starts but another core part of balance is via deployment method as you take it in turns to deploy units don't just throw down a model out of the blue view your enemy's unit and find out what could possibly be good vs it and counter it accordingly with a unit if it is a monster use stuff that is good vs monsters for instance if you don't have any of that use stuff that can block or keep its attention away from your weaker units vs that monster.

That is the Sentence from Hell. Wow.

MLP
11-11-2015, 14:49
I think this sort of forum doesn't really need a "guide" like this to be honest.

I also think you need to work on your spelling, punctuation and data presentation. Your posts are remarkably hard to read.


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Khastarax
11-11-2015, 15:16
Is this supposed to be a tactic thread? I dont see a link to the title though. Appreciate the enthusiasm of the writer, but its hard to read and understand the purpose of the posts

StealthKnightSteg
11-11-2015, 15:51
also a few mistakes in there:


Prosecutors
++ vs Blood warriors because they cant counter attack ranged attacks.
+ vs Bloodreavers because of range and kiting.
- vs Khorgoraths because they can move 6" and hit with a 6" weapon making it the same as prosecutors movement.

Korgoraths might bridge 12" that way yes, but Prosecutors have a 18" range attack so they can still kite them, so also Neutral (this word Neutral is also misspelled in the legenda on top of post) in my opinion.


Blood Warriors
++ vs Prosecutors because even if they die they can counter attack.
+ vs Liberators because you dont have the numbers of attacks and they can block them with there shields rerolling also.
- vs Prosecutors because you dont have ranged and if you die to range your counter attack is wasted.

Twice versus Prosecutor's?

Holier Than Thou
11-11-2015, 16:28
if it is a monster use stuff that is good vs monsters


What would you suggest? Maybe a goblin from a monster-hunting tribe?*

I appreciate your sage advice, it amounts to "whatever they put down, put something that's good against it."

*Check Zywus's signature for the reference.

Zywus
11-11-2015, 16:35
At your service!:D

I have absolutely no idea what this thread is actually about btw.:p

Arrahed
11-11-2015, 17:25
unit with 1 wound and 10 models looses 6 that would be 1-6 additional wounds lost.
unit with 3 wounds and 10 models looses 6 that would be 3-18 additional wounds lost.


That is not really true. A unit of 3wound-each models suffering 6 wounds are only two dead models. Additional models will only be removed on a 5 or 6 with a maximum of 2 being gone.

Conclusion: More wounds is always better.

EDIT: Well, if you take the quoted section literally, it is actually true. But comparing six suffered wounds to 18 suffered wounds is not really an appropriate comparison.

MagicAngle
11-11-2015, 17:31
It doesn't sound like a "balanced" mindset. It sounds like a "put down a hard counter to whatever your opponent puts down" mindset.

Xaric
11-11-2015, 23:09
Okay first of all people I am not good at words but thanks for reminding me... now if your not going to add to the context of the topic of the post please leave your not focus on the topic so theres no reason for you to be here...

On the Blood warriors The top Prosecutor was meant to be Retributors not Prosecutor fixing now also the monster is the only ranged unit the bloodbound has in the starter box.

Xaric
11-11-2015, 23:17
It doesn't sound like a "balanced" mindset. It sounds like a "put down a hard counter to whatever your opponent puts down" mindset.

This is a balance mind-set as both sides should be doing this but mostly from what I see and hear from players there just plopping down any model in hopes of victory then claiming the game is unbalanced because of that reason.

Xaric
11-11-2015, 23:21
That is not really true. A unit of 3wound-each models suffering 6 wounds are only two dead models. Additional models will only be removed on a 5 or 6 with a maximum of 2 being gone.

Conclusion: More wounds is always better.

EDIT: Well, if you take the quoted section literally, it is actually true. But comparing six suffered wounds to 18 suffered wounds is not really an appropriate comparison.

If both units have the same bravery of 6 and you loose any model you take a battle shock and if you have lost 6 models what ever you roll on that d6 1-6 models are removed regardless of there wounds you take the model away not the wounds so effectively you loose in those 3 wound models 3/6/9/12/15/18 wounds depending on the D6.

Xaric
11-11-2015, 23:23
Okey what do you not understand?

Skargit Crookfang
11-11-2015, 23:25
Yeah i don't think AoS was ever meant for this excessive level of mathhammer pregame.

Xaric
11-11-2015, 23:32
What would you suggest? Maybe a goblin from a monster-hunting tribe?*

I appreciate your sage advice, it amounts to "whatever they put down, put something that's good against it."

*Check Zywus's signature for the reference.

Use Goblin Spear Chuckka's due to some monsters are classed as hero keyword so you hit on a +3 with that -2 rend and 2 attacks each dealing d3 damage pretty powerful vs monsters with hero keyword or just hero keyword good thing this will always be useful.

Use Goblin Rock Lobber for units comprised of week saves and loads of models.

Col. Tartleton
12-11-2015, 00:10
Hard countering is a legitimate way to balance. The problem is that if its literally just rock-paper-scissors then its literally just rock-paper-scissors. There's a lack of complexity. So you really want like rock & paper vs paper & scissors.

Skargit Crookfang
12-11-2015, 01:43
Hard countering is a legitimate way to balance. The problem is that if its literally just rock-paper-scissors then its literally just rock-paper-scissors. There's a lack of complexity. So you really want like rock & paper vs paper & scissors.

Pretty much this.

It's just not optimal for competitive environments. Doesn't mean you can't find some loose balance - but this is all square peg round hole kind of stuff.

MagicAngle
12-11-2015, 03:36
Hard countering is a legitimate way to balance. The problem is that if its literally just rock-paper-scissors then its literally just rock-paper-scissors. There's a lack of complexity. So you really want like rock & paper vs paper & scissors.

Fair do's - that's a good point. Plus, without a limiting factor such as points values, I assume this approach fails as there are a few trump cards which are hard counters to everything (Nagash and his ilk). Even with the best will in the world, you most likely end up in an arms race, looking something like this:

I place 40 zombies,
So you place 25 halberdiers,
So I place a 20 grave guard,
So you place a 15 knights,
So I place 6 vargheists,
etc.. etc.. etc..
So you place KF
So I place Nagash

Dosiere
12-11-2015, 03:57
Not to mention this entire "system" relies on both players having an incredibly large and diverse collection at hand. Actually one of the things I hated about AoS when I played. I found myself bringing along almost my entire xxx army collection to play a few tiny little games. Ridiculous.

Spiney Norman
12-11-2015, 07:30
Not to mention this entire "system" relies on both players having an incredibly large and diverse collection at hand. Actually one of the things I hated about AoS when I played. I found myself bringing along almost my entire xxx army collection to play a few tiny little games. Ridiculous.

My experience doesn't match that at all, in fact AoS works incredibly well at smaller sizes, we've played a lot of really enjoyable games just with the starter set models and a few extras. All you need to do is talk to your opponent in advance about how big you want the game to be - it's a social hobby after all ;)

Arrahed
12-11-2015, 07:54
If both units have the same bravery of 6 and you loose any model you take a battle shock and if you have lost 6 models what ever you roll on that d6 1-6 models are removed regardless of there wounds you take the model away not the wounds so effectively you loose in those 3 wound models 3/6/9/12/15/18 wounds depending on the D6.

I will try a different angle:

You have a 10 model unit with three wound each. You then suffer 18 wounds causing 6 lost models. With bravery six you will then loose another D6 due to battle shock.
You have a 10 model unit with one wound each. You then suffer 18 wounds. The whole unit is annihilated.
Conclusion: More wounds --> better.

You have a 10 model unit with three wound each. You then suffer six wounds causing 2 lost models. With bravery six you might then loose another two due to battle shock. The most probable outcome is no additional losses.
You have a 10 model unit with one wound each. You then suffer six wounds. With bravery six you will then loose another D6 due to battle shock.
Conclusion: More wounds --> better.


There are weapons that cause more than one wound. This example assumes a weapon causing D3 wounds:
You have a model with three wounds being hit and wounded by that weapon. You have a one in three chance of loosing that model right away.
You have a model with 1 wound being hit and wounded by that weapon. That model is gone, always.
Conclusion: More wounds --> better.

MLP
12-11-2015, 08:35
Trying to balance a game by having a particular counter to whatever your opponent places down just wont work. What are you going to do when every faction has been released? Have a list of every unit against every other possible unit in the game showing what's good to place down? Not going to happen. This is card game stuff.

Seriously if you have balance issues with AoS just use one of the many decent comp systems that have been made. Some even have a web based page where you can build an army list (in minutes) so you don't need to even think about it and it doesn't matter if you've only just met your opponent.


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Khastarax
12-11-2015, 10:50
Hard countering also makes you reactive to another players choises and is limited by your model collection. Better would be to think out a list that has coherent special rules that boosts your own units, field that and let your opponent react (or not)

Xaric
12-11-2015, 12:55
Hard countering is a legitimate way to balance. The problem is that if its literally just rock-paper-scissors then its literally just rock-paper-scissors. There's a lack of complexity. So you really want like rock & paper vs paper & scissors.

The complexity comes from deployment of units that will be used in synergy with other units for instant use unit's that appear weak to your enemy but with bonuses to make them way stronger then they are for this example I use a formation I cooked up with my army outside the starter box.


First unit to deploy bloodreavers then bloodwarriors in front with a 3" gap between them then a khorne warshrine beside the bloodreavers for the 3 first units countering the bloodreavers would be the only visible thing so they would treat it as a easy threat then bloodwarriors looked like a shielding unit so they would think to get around them with a ranged unit so the warshrine go's down giving everything a shield for the added protection. basically what I am getting at is playing like this you can if good at the mind games you can manipulate the deployment stage of the game.

Xaric
12-11-2015, 13:05
Fair do's - that's a good point. Plus, without a limiting factor such as points values, I assume this approach fails as there are a few trump cards which are hard counters to everything (Nagash and his ilk). Even with the best will in the world, you most likely end up in an arms race, looking something like this:

I place 40 zombies,
So you place 25 halberdiers,
So I place a 20 grave guard,
So you place a 15 knights,
So I place 6 vargheists,
etc.. etc.. etc..
So you place KF
So I place Nagash

Quite incorrect nagash infect can die depending if you bring a monster hunter unit to normal wounds via ranged attacks his special save ability only protects vs mortal wounds you stick for instant for the goblin hunter guy the goblin spear chuckka a number of them can easily deal with nagash being that he is a hero so they get +3 to hit and his save is 3+ but is reduced to 5+ due to the -2 rend also nagash loosing effectiveness due to more wounds taken the thing is most of the undead army yes there very high in numbers but there also weak in saves for a majority of units the thing i personally plan for is getting a bloodthirster and making him the one with the whip to pull nagash out of position and lay a smack down on him.

also blood secrator forces all units within the planeted banner range to reroll all successful spellcasts before unbinding so there are ways to make it harder to cast spells.

Dosiere
12-11-2015, 13:19
My experience doesn't match that at all, in fact AoS works incredibly well at smaller sizes, we've played a lot of really enjoyable games just with the starter set models and a few extras. All you need to do is talk to your opponent in advance about how big you want the game to be - it's a social hobby after all ;)

I'm talking about showing up for Warhammer night at the club and trying to find multiple games throughout an evening. They're called "pick up" games, just so you know.

Of course, I wasn't even talking about the size of the game, but the idea that you can deploy counters to balance things, which means you are going to need a lot more miniatures than you end up playing with in a game for deployment options. I have a feeling you knew exactly this however when you replied. So even if you want to play a small game, you would need lots of options because there are no lists to build to.

Tokamak
12-11-2015, 13:28
Can't blame the guy for trying. Symmetry is the most straight-forward way to balance things. It's just, as many point out, that one of Warhammer's strengths is its asymmetrical gameplay. Asymmetry that AoS seems to encourage yet horribly botch at the same time.

Xaric
12-11-2015, 14:53
I'm talking about showing up for Warhammer night at the club and trying to find multiple games throughout an evening. They're called "pick up" games, just so you know.

Of course, I wasn't even talking about the size of the game, but the idea that you can deploy counters to balance things, which means you are going to need a lot more miniatures than you end up playing with in a game for deployment options. I have a feeling you knew exactly this however when you replied. So even if you want to play a small game, you would need lots of options because there are no lists to build to.

That or come up with a list that covers most if not all eventualitys just like list building as normal...

Xaric
12-11-2015, 14:55
Can't blame the guy for trying. Symmetry is the most straight-forward way to balance things. It's just, as many point out, that one of Warhammer's strengths is its asymmetrical gameplay. Asymmetry that AoS seems to encourage yet horribly botch at the same time.

I personaly would not say horribly botch but there are people who look for loopholes in the ruling to play it as it was not intended by the dev team also this is AOS first edition much can yet be imporved on if given the chance.

Spiney Norman
12-11-2015, 15:07
I'm talking about showing up for Warhammer night at the club and trying to find multiple games throughout an evening. They're called "pick up" games, just so you know.

Of course, I wasn't even talking about the size of the game, but the idea that you can deploy counters to balance things, which means you are going to need a lot more miniatures than you end up playing with in a game for deployment options. I have a feeling you knew exactly this however when you replied. So even if you want to play a small game, you would need lots of options because there are no lists to build to.

Even with pick-up games (which in a club context can usually be arranged in advance over social media in my experience) all it takes is a bit of open discussion during deployment along the lines of 'I've brought this with me, let's see what you've got with you and try to put together a balanced game'. Once you get past the idea that one or both of you are out to screw the other over to help them win the game it's remarkably easy to do.

Dosiere
12-11-2015, 17:28
Even with pick-up games (which in a club context can usually be arranged in advance over social media in my experience) all it takes is a bit of open discussion during deployment along the lines of 'I've brought this with me, let's see what you've got with you and try to put together a balanced game'. Once you get past the idea that one or both of you are out to screw the other over to help them win the game it's remarkably easy to do.

Spiney, you make some pretty huge assumptions to come to your arguments. Twice now you seem to be replying to something kind of like what I said, but not really. This entire discussion is based on balancing AoS by countering on a unit by unit basis during deployment. Did you miss that part? To do that you need to bring a rather large collection, which I found annoying and is exactly what I am talking about. That is not what you are talking about.

If you want to make a statement then just do so, no need to pretend like what you are talking about and what I am typing are the same thing to justify your words. I can't really even figure out why you keep quoting me, since we are not talking about the same thing.

Skargit Crookfang
12-11-2015, 17:42
Ignore this. Misread. Oops.

Dosiere
12-11-2015, 17:46
I don't know why you feel the need chastise me for wanting my comments to stay in context, and on topic, especially when they're being quoted for no apparent reason.

Skargit Crookfang
12-11-2015, 20:12
I don't know why you feel the need chastise me for wanting my comments to stay in context, and on topic, especially when they're being quoted for no apparent reason.
I misread that. Thought it was someone else. My apologies.

Spiney Norman
12-11-2015, 21:57
Spiney, you make some pretty huge assumptions to come to your arguments. Twice now you seem to be replying to something kind of like what I said, but not really. This entire discussion is based on balancing AoS by countering on a unit by unit basis during deployment. Did you miss that part? To do that you need to bring a rather large collection, which I found annoying and is exactly what I am talking about. That is not what you are talking about.

If you want to make a statement then just do so, no need to pretend like what you are talking about and what I am typing are the same thing to justify your words. I can't really even figure out why you keep quoting me, since we are not talking about the same thing.

No, all I'm saying is you don't have to bring your entire collection with you. If you know what your opponent is bringing before you pack your case then you can prepare your force in advance. You don't have to do this method exclusively 'on the fly'. In fact I'd say this is a method that probably doesn't work well if you can't possibly communicate with your opponent in advance, but that is just me.

I've seen AoS games played where both players basically try and nobble each other with their deployment and it never ends in a good game.

Dosiere
12-11-2015, 23:13
Well, my experience is the opposite in that it can be a good game this way, but the fact that you need to bring tons of models to play a few pick up games was not good. In fact, that I and my opponent had large collections sometimes led to the better AoS games I ever had. The game evolved during deployment into some fun games that broke the incredibly boring normal game of AoS. It also allowed me to adjust my army and deployment to match any game I might play. In short, it was a critical first step to playing AoS as a pick up game, having a large collection with you. It works, I just found it to really suck to have to bring 6k worth of models in old currency to an AoS game night. Also, these types of games are where I saw myself using the models you never get to use in WFB which I really enjoyed, so I would say it works... except you have to bring half your collection to play.

If you want to essentially make lists before you play, that's cool, but impossible when you cant set up a game in advance not to mention hard to do with this game in the first place outside of face to face interfacing. There needs to be some type of baseline to frame the conversation. If it's not something you can text in a few short words it needs reworking. With WFB all I had to say was "hey, looking for a game tonight be there around 6pm - no end times stuff please - 2k or 2.5k games". I'm glad you have the time, gamer friends, and kind of job where you can set up games way in advance with people you know. I don't, and I rely almost 100% on pick up gaming to play, sometimes I just show up with my minis and get games in. I often would leave my minis in the trunk for a few days and hope to be able to get an evening where I can run over and get a game in.

With every other game I play or have played this was not a problem. Your assertion that I didn't like playing AoS because I was out to screw every other gamer is rather presumptuous of you, and entirely wrong.

Tokamak
12-11-2015, 23:22
I personaly would not say horribly botch but there are people who look for loopholes in the ruling to play it as it was not intended by the dev team also this is AOS first edition much can yet be imporved on if given the chance.

The loopholes aren't an exception, they're part of the gameplay.

Arrahed
13-11-2015, 09:31
No, all I'm saying is you don't have to bring your entire collection with you. If you know what your opponent is bringing before you pack your case then you can prepare your force in advance. You don't have to do this method exclusively 'on the fly'. In fact I'd say this is a method that probably doesn't work well if you can't possibly communicate with your opponent in advance, but that is just me.

I've seen AoS games played where both players basically try and nobble each other with their deployment and it never ends in a good game.

I think the point was that you cannot argue that 'counter deployment' is a great feature because if you don't do it you don't have to carry all your stuff around.