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View Full Version : If witchfires were viable



mikesmight123
11-11-2015, 20:15
The topic is in the title,.il add more detail. If witchfires were changed.so that a MODEL not a unit cannot attempt to cast the same witchfire would that be balanced

I'd like it because it would allow mono-tzeentch daemons to get over the mono build of summoning.

Imagine 3-4 heralds in a unit of screamers with a exalted locus that gives +1s ti witchfires. Each herald would be lvl 3 and 1 would have 1 in the discipline of tzeentch and 2 in divination (this would be the buffing herald) and then the others with 2 in tzeentch and 1 in divination.

Flickering fire at strength 6 would be scary, the ability to cast 4d6 s6 ap4 that can be twin linked,rend or/and ignore cover would cause nearly all units to cower.

Then there's bolt of change, a Sd6+5 (Thanks to the locus) ap 2 24" beam could cause havoc to vehicles and monstrous creatures. Having a 1/3 chance for a s10 ap2 beam is amazing. And if u don't get s10 the worst u would get is s6 which is not bad at all.

Same with infernal gateway, its a ap1 small blast. Has nice potential.

Tzeentch's firestorm is useless, if it was a large blast then it would be worth considering.


So that's a nice combo I can think with daemons, are there any other armies that would benefit from a witchfire buff?

totgeboren
12-11-2015, 17:32
I would like it if witchfires didn't need to roll to hit. And also the change you mentioned about a model, not unit, not being allowed to case the same power twice.

I mean, being allowed to DtW them (with a large chance of success if you have psychers or similar in your unit) means they are doubly punished by first having to manage to cast it, then having your enemy DtW it, and then having to roll to hit on top of that for an effect that is often comparable to something like a plasma pistol or a combi-weapon.

If you just look at the numbers, witchfires are simply horrible considering the points you spend for something that goes off at most 2, perhaps with massive luck 3 times during a game.

Auto-hit is the least they need.

Daenerys Targaryen
13-11-2015, 17:07
It's really Tzeentch Daemons who are the ones that are seriously screwed over by the current Witchfire rules...
I tend to now keep Flickering Fire as a 'Herald only' casting, since they can be pushed to Lv3, thus making it harder to deny their spells. At least their supporting Horrors can now cast Gateway should they land it.

However, Tzeentch can still be made pretty shooty, as we still have masses of Flamers, plus the fly-by slashes from Screamers. Plus, we've gained Exalted Flamers themselves, who can synergise nicely with a Horror unit's Blasted Standard. And 7th also fixed the issues with the Burny Chariots.

Princes can also provide more Witchfire support with Psy Shriek or Biomancy spells.

And don't forget either, that while they're not nearly as good, the +1S Locus [I]does[/b] boost the strength of both the Witchfires within the Malefic tree.

mercury14
15-11-2015, 14:46
It's really Tzeentch Daemons who are the ones that are seriously screwed over by the current Witchfire rules...


And BS4 Harlequin Shadowseers. :(

gwarsh41
16-11-2015, 13:58
What you are thinking of was possible, and constantly done in 6th edition. It was called screamers star. 4 disc ML3 heralds in a max screamer unit. One had grimore to cast on the screamers, one had banner. You would a buttload of divination, and they all had flickering fire as well. Then you would ignore cover and twin link the unit. Fire off 4 max strength flickering fires and then assault something.

The grimoire gave the unit a ++3 re-rolling 1s, sometimes a ++2 if one of the heralds got forewarning. It was a top tier death star.

mikesmight123
16-11-2015, 18:19
What you are thinking of was possible, and constantly done in 6th edition. It was called screamers star. 4 disc ML3 heralds in a max screamer unit. One had grimore to cast on the screamers, one had banner. You would a buttload of divination, and they all had flickering fire as well. Then you would ignore cover and twin link the unit. Fire off 4 max strength flickering fires and then assault something.

The grimoire gave the unit a ++3 re-rolling 1s, sometimes a ++2 if one of the heralds got forewarning. It was a top tier death star.


I thought screamer star was the 2++ re rollable but instead of witchfires it spams malefic.

gwarsh41
16-11-2015, 20:15
Like I said, screamer star was ++2 if one of the 4 ML3 heralds got forewarning. Grimoire+daemon = ++3, grimoire+forewarning = ++2. You could spam summon, but it wouldn't really be a death star. Malefic didn't exist when screamerstar was popular.

youngsamwise
18-11-2015, 16:27
To add to what gwarsh already stated, at the time you had the benefit of reliably hitting max charge flickering fire as well so it was quite common to see 4d6 shots per model. In 7th you need to declare the number of warp charges before casting FF and as you need 3 passes per model you would statistically need to throw six dice. If you only get two passes, you fail to cast the power at all (I see this misplayed as getting only 3d6 FF dice which is incorrect). So even if the witchfire rules were changed to allow shooting flickering fire more than once per unit, you would still need to throw approximately 24 dice at it (4 models at 6 dice per spell). And you would still likely fail at least once and perils at least once.

The only benefit is that the unit can now split fire. And FF is a free primaris. However, throwing that many dice to get the power off leaves little room for buffs. Also, the changes to divination (WC2 prescience, slightly nerfed misfortune) make that table less useful.