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Cyell
11-11-2015, 22:58
Hi Everyone,

My game group and I have recently started playing AoS, and have been bouncing around between all the different point/comps that's been published so far. For one reason or another, mostly due to ranged units being too cheap, we've never settled on one that works for us; so we decided to create our own. This point system will be based on almost all on pure math, where we enter the base stats on a spreadsheet and a formula spits out a value. But there are 2 problems.

The first problem is the formulas gets convoluted when layers upon layers are added to determine a "fair" value. And in most cases it's difficult to say if the formula itself is an accurate measure of a unit's value in the first place. ***I will update this thread with the formula and an explanation later when I get home***

The second problem is that the special rules are not easily quantified, which mean judgement calls, which means bias and skewed numbers.

So the idea here is to post the numbers, and if anyone cares to look through them (or better yet play test them) and provide feedback. Any feedback is welcome, good or bad; and any details of why you think the points are wrong would be great. Please keep in mind this is still a work in progress, and missing about half of the armies. It also doesn't look very pretty as the focus is on getting the point values to a good place. Thanks in advance for any help/feedback!


The points are on a Google spreadsheet here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p_YVV17l0yCWUPibmse4HA7EbUkKr1NrUcXyOAbLiVs/edit#gid=0).


Lastly, here are a few things to keep in mind as you look through the numbers:

We're trying to minimize changes to the rule, and will trying to play as written as much as possible.

Currently the points do not reflect summoning, so for the time being we're pretending summoning doesn't exist. But hopefully we'll get that part updated and fixed.

We do have one house rule, which is special characters are unique, meaning only one Malekith or Karl Franz.

Folomo
12-11-2015, 00:50
A quick look at the table and I see a problem already on the units cost. Why do you cost the models independant on the size of the unit?
Clearly two units of 10 skeleton archers are considerably worse than a unit of 20, based on the rules that escalate with size. I really recommend basing the cost of the models based on the size of the units.
For example: Skeletons 1-19 = X, 20-29 = Y, 30+ = Z

This will greatly improve the precision of the system. Else you are forcing people to buy big sized units or use underpowered models.

Yrch
12-11-2015, 01:43
Just a quick glance over the Chaos Demon Khorne side as i play them pretty often.

Skulltaker is way to cheap compared to a Herald, either decrease points for Herald or Increase points for Skulltaker.
Skulltaker can reroll his saves, does 3 dmg on hit, can reroll everything against heros AND grants fellow Bloodletters their Locust of fury so there is no reason to not take Skulltaker for 15 points more.

Skullcannon is a bit too pricey imo. yes it can do D6 dmg if it hits but its not worth 170 points for 1 shooting attack (you dont really want that thing in melee as it can be focused down pretty easy)

Karanak should be a little more pricey, as he can summon double his points into the battle, maybe flat 100.

Maybe add a little extra points for wings on a deamon prince.

The Soulgrinder is a bit complicated. I can do TONS of damage yeah, but its hit stats are very bad (all hits are 4+) and it doesnt have a lot of attacks so it should be costly yeah but not Bloothirster level costly.
I'd rather take any of the Bloodthirsters instead of the Souldgrinder because hes nearly as fast, grants me a command abbility and has a way better melee profile.
I think the Soulgrinder should be around ~250 points.


everything else seems to be alright so far.

If you need help with developing points for Stormcasts feel free to ask, as they are my main army since AoS has been released :)

jtrowell
12-11-2015, 12:33
Another AoS point system ?

This remind me of this XKCD joke : https://xkcd.com/927/

Cyell
13-11-2015, 16:49
A quick look at the table and I see a problem already on the units cost. Why do you cost the models independant on the size of the unit?
Clearly two units of 10 skeleton archers are considerably worse than a unit of 20, based on the rules that escalate with size. I really recommend basing the cost of the models based on the size of the units.
For example: Skeletons 1-19 = X, 20-29 = Y, 30+ = Z

This will greatly improve the precision of the system. Else you are forcing people to buy big sized units or use underpowered models.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll keep this in mind, and add something extra for units that benefit from have larger unit sizes.


Just a quick glance over the Chaos Demon Khorne side as i play them pretty often.

Skulltaker is way to cheap compared to a Herald, either decrease points for Herald or Increase points for Skulltaker.
Skulltaker can reroll his saves, does 3 dmg on hit, can reroll everything against heros AND grants fellow Bloodletters their Locust of fury so there is no reason to not take Skulltaker for 15 points more.


This is super helpful. Thank you! I'll reevaluate what I have and see if anything needs to be adjusted.



Skullcannon is a bit too pricey imo. yes it can do D6 dmg if it hits but its not worth 170 points for 1 shooting attack (you dont really want that thing in melee as it can be focused down pretty easy)


I agree 170 might be a bit high. But at the same time it is a half of a dwarf cannon that cannot be easily killed by small chaff units. And since it can still shoot while in combat, its cost needs to properly reflect that.



Karanak should be a little more pricey, as he can summon double his points into the battle, maybe flat 100.


I'll probably make an adjust to his cost at a later time when I can properly account for "summoning".



Maybe add a little extra points for wings on a deamon prince.


You're right. I totally missed the flying part.



The Soulgrinder is a bit complicated. I can do TONS of damage yeah, but its hit stats are very bad (all hits are 4+) and it doesnt have a lot of attacks so it should be costly yeah but not Bloothirster level costly.
I'd rather take any of the Bloodthirsters instead of the Souldgrinder because hes nearly as fast, grants me a command abbility and has a way better melee profile.
I think the Soulgrinder should be around ~250 points.


everything else seems to be alright so far.

If you need help with developing points for Stormcasts feel free to ask, as they are my main army since AoS has been released :)

You are again, correct, and it does seem a bit over costed. But just like the skull cannon, I needed to adjust a soulgrinder's cost because of its shooting potential where it could take a blood thirster to half health before it engages in melee.

In all cases, thank you for all of your input, and I'll start making adjustment to costs.