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KieranHayns
13-11-2015, 17:41
So i had a theory about the identity of the Celestant Prime.

Its seems pretty out there but bare with me.

Could it be Archaon AKA Diedrik Kastner
(Brace for cry of outrage)
Hear me out. here are a number of reasons why i think it could be the case.
WHFB SPOILER ALERT

- Firstly if you read the description of the Celestant prime it mentions him being a great king and guardian of men etc.
Well Diedriek was all of these things at one point or another.
as templar of Sigmar and the Three Eyed KING (never says CP was a nice king)

- Secondly the Archaon was a title taken up by Diedrick. Whats to stop another worthy applicant taking up that name in his place (Kinda like imrik becoming Caledor)

- next was the conclusion of the end times as we dont see what actually happened to archaon.

- Sigmar both commented and reflected during the end times that Diedrick would have been a great leader of men and would have basically led the mortal races to victory against chaos had he not been corrupted (Fits the description of CP)

- Diedrick did have a number of Darth Vader like moments of regret if you read the Archaon novels as he seemed to resent his fate.

- Also for those of you that have spotted the new Archaon model floating about his appearence seems to have changed. Also he was supposdly tested once again by the Chaos Gods (Why would you need to re test a guy about his ability to destroy worlds when he did such a good job the first time round. unless its a new applicant up for interview for the post of Archaon)

- there are another couple of other small reasons that could indicate this as a possibiity but the above are the ones worth mentioning.

So here is what i think could have happened.

Sigmar and Diedrick are last seen falling into the realm of chaos. The two of them wrestle for a while before becoming seperated. Sigmar meets his dragon friend and starts doing the whole rebuilding the worlds and wakeing up the other incarnates until . . .Whats this? he stumbles onto the battered body of Diedrick who (having completed his job.) was cast away by the Chaos gods (he wasent exactly there most polite servant. considering he justified his ET actions as robbing the Gods of there power).
Sigmar picks him up and takes him home where he attempts to undo the corruption done to Diedrick and turn him into the potential saviour he might have once been. As archaon was near god like during the endtimes this prooves to be a more difficult project thatn sigmar could handle at that moment so he seals him away until he gains the means to 'complete' him (Ghal Maraz) Dierdrick then arises as the new celestant prime ready to kick ass as the first scion of sigmar (Again diedricks potential to be the greates of sigmars 'Children') but dosent reveal his identity as the other incarnates and survivors of the old world would still be kinda pissed at him.

And . . .Discuss!

Smooth Boy
13-11-2015, 18:07
A new model for Archaon is in the works so it seems unlikely and this should be in general I think. N&R is for new releases.

benvoliothefirst
13-11-2015, 18:09
Makes perfect sense to me... Also makes me think I have to read the Archaon novels at some point. The five books in the end times series seem to have left a lot of the plot out in favor of battle descriptions, which is the same problem I had with the Star wars prequels.

KieranHayns
13-11-2015, 18:24
Archaon is an inherited name. dosent have to be the same guy

KieranHayns
13-11-2015, 18:26
They are good novels but its but there was ALOT to try and cram into them. your best bet is to read the actual scenario books. (if that's not what your referring to)

baphomael
13-11-2015, 18:31
Archaon is an inherited name. dosent have to be the same guy

Since when was Archaon an inherited name? All the other Everchosen have had different names (Morkar the Uniter, Vangel, Kharduun the Gloried, Asavar Kul). Archaon was just the last in the list of folk to bare the title of Everchosen.

Gus8
13-11-2015, 18:36
I'd assumed it was Karl Franz.

KieranHayns
13-11-2015, 18:37
Maybe inherited is the wrong word but its not the guys name. his name is Deidrick Kastner.
But since he was the first one to get anything done it would be a name worth inheriting

Philhelm
13-11-2015, 19:07
I'd assumed it was Karl Franz.

I was leaning toward Markus Wulfheart.

Skywave
13-11-2015, 19:25
I'm not quite versed in Chaos/Archaon fluff, but wasn't Archaon main agenda was to destroy the world/humain realm to show that Sigmar was a lie? Wasn't he spiteful against the Sigmar's "myth" and then choose to side with Chaos?

Then at the End Time he get to fight Sigmar himself, the one who he though wasn't real. So I think him repenting later in AoS would be kind of fitting, it's something that would be much better then him just continuing to be the Chaos Gods pawn.

KieranHayns
13-11-2015, 21:32
I'm not quite versed in Chaos/Archaon fluff, but wasn't Archaon main agenda was to destroy the world/humain realm to show that Sigmar was a lie? Wasn't he spiteful against the Sigmar's "myth" and then choose to side with Chaos?

Then at the End Time he get to fight Sigmar himself, the one who he though wasn't real. So I think him repenting later in AoS would be kind of fitting, it's something that would be much better then him just continuing to be the Chaos Gods pawn.

Exactly and he still had trouble accepting that the enemy he faced was Sigmar (on account of him having Karl Franz's face)

Plus as much as i like archaon as a character i would kinda like there to be a new big bad guyfor a brand new setting

BattleofLund
13-11-2015, 22:00
And since the Chaos gods are desperately afraid of bad press they don't want to admit that Archaon has switched sides - again. So they take all his regalia and give them (and the name) to another Champion! After all, as baphomael said the Ruinous Four don't want to sully the title of Everchosen by attaching another name to it. ("All the other Everchosen have had different names (Morkar the Uniter, Vangel, Kharduun the Gloried, Asavar Kul). Archaon was just the last in the list")

Makes perfect sense. I like it!

DJM
13-11-2015, 23:36
I also think that it would make sense that Archaon will be the celestant prime. Wasn't it mentioned that Karl Franz "became" the new Sigmar? So why introduce another Karl Franz as the celestant prime?
And by the way, wouldn't that be a nice twist in the story?
Why destroying the history of 20Years to again have the same guy be the bad one there was?

Smooth Boy
14-11-2015, 07:20
It is a cool theory and consistent with the lore but I just can't see them letting go of Archeon, he is after all the everchosen. The prime is probably something new, representing the fantasy version of a primarch, or green knight/le Breton.

KieranHayns
14-11-2015, 09:50
At the end of the day GW can make it whoever they want and fill in the gaps in that grey area the age of myth

and celestant prime is . . . .Felix Jager. because why not!

However i would say that Archaon is ONE of the everchosen. he just happened to be the only one who got stuff done.

CP or not i dont want archaon as the new chaos supervillain

snirr
15-11-2015, 11:08
i dont want archaon as the new chaos supervillain

But there is a new Archaon model coming and it looks very much like a new interpretation of the old model. Even if the Celestant Prime is Diedrick Kastner , Archaon seems to become the new chaos supervillain.

Gorthor21
15-11-2015, 11:50
Archaon is even more of a supervillian now than he was before. When i first read the OP i really had a WTH moment and i still dont get it. there isn't any point in any background were a character is 'cured' of chaos influence is there?
the celestant-prime is the greatest hero that sigmar saved. it could be volkmar the grim for all we know but the odds are its just a character from post end times.
on an aside did anyone else read the archaon novels and felt a little bit of their childhood die when the swords of chaos showed up to save him. i get the chaos angels thing but it just made no sense to me.

ryng_sting
15-11-2015, 12:32
Nice theory, but the AoS fluff actually states that Archaon is still Diederick Kastner, not someone else up taking the name.

KieranHayns
15-11-2015, 20:04
what i mean is if THAT archaon isent Diedrik then youve got a new villain with a new background without needing another model to represent him

KieranHayns
15-11-2015, 20:10
no one of any significance. but there are quite a few examples of individuals aligned with chaos who made an attempt at redemption. one example off the top of my head is in the novel
Beastslayer (SPOILER ALERT) where the duke of Praag's Brother or cousin is a chaos cultist sent to assasinate the duke but turns good at the last moment and sacrifices himself to save the duke.

also i remember Alarielle purging a chaos champion issyk Kul of all the chaos influence within him but Slannash destroyed him rather than let him be saved. So im not sure if it has happened but i see no reason why it would be impossible.

KieranHayns
15-11-2015, 20:11
Really? where abouts does it say? i havent come across that yet

ryng_sting
15-11-2015, 22:08
what i mean is if THAT archaon isent Diedrik then youve got a new villain with a new background without needing another model to represent him

Except he is, so the question is futile.

Mind your spelling, please.

KieranHayns
16-11-2015, 10:09
So your arguing that Diedrick IS Archaon because he is . . . . .
don't suppose you've got a slightly more compelling source . . .

Col. Tartleton
16-11-2015, 14:50
Diedrick is Archaon because Archaon is Diedrick.

KieranHayns
16-11-2015, 15:39
Its just a name chosen by the dark gods. why does it have to be his alone.

Imrik is Caledor because Caledor is Imrik l. . . .er no because Imrik chose to take that title from the original Caledor. Why couldn't some everchosen successor do the same.

I was told that the lore clearly states that the AOS archaon IS diedrick. I just wanted to know where.

Gorthor21
16-11-2015, 16:39
in the first book it talks about him being rewarded with more power for leading the destruction of the world that was

hagen88
16-11-2015, 18:13
I seem to remember that Josh Reynolds said on his ask.fm that the Prime is Settra, though I don't know if he was serious or just joking, I went through the page very quikly. Would be weird if that was true.
Though I really like the OP idea, I struggle to see gw coming out with something so twisted and not straightforward, they are not exactly geniuses of the paradox anymore...

KieranHayns
16-11-2015, 19:26
in the first book it talks about him being rewarded with more power for leading the destruction of the world that was


there you go then. GW could probably make it work if they really want it to but it does seem unlikely if thats the case.

Still would like a new bigger bad guy to surface though.

KieranHayns
16-11-2015, 19:28
I seem to remember that Josh Reynolds said on his ask.fm that the Prime is Settra, though I don't know if he was serious or just joking, I went through the page very quikly. Would be weird if that was true.
Though I really like the OP idea, I struggle to see gw coming out with something so twisted and not straightforward, they are not exactly geniuses of the paradox anymore...

im still thinking Gilles le Bretton is the best bet.

Spiney Norman
16-11-2015, 21:17
Its just a name chosen by the dark gods. why does it have to be his alone.

Imrik is Caledor because Caledor is Imrik l. . . .er no because Imrik chose to take that title from the original Caledor. Why couldn't some everchosen successor do the same.

I was told that the lore clearly states that the AOS archaon IS diedrick. I just wanted to know where.

Because frankly the idea that the big bad hero of the end times would become the big good hero of Age of Sigmar and his replacement big bad hero would be a completely different person but arbitrarily have the same name (despite, to my knowledge, no previous chaos heroes bearing the name) would be so utterly convaluted and frankly bonkers, that not even the authors of age of Sigmar would dream it up.

Besides, the AoS fluff pretty clearly states that the archaon present in AoS is the same archaon that masterminded the destruction of the old world, even if it doesn't explicitly name him as Diedrich.

Personally I prefer the idea that Settra is the celestant prime, I like the idea that my tomb kings will endure into the new era in some fashion.

KieranHayns
16-11-2015, 22:13
Because frankly the idea that the big bad hero of the end times would become the big good hero of Age of Sigmar and his replacement big bad hero would be a completely different person but arbitrarily have the same name (despite, to my knowledge, no previous chaos heroes bearing the name) would be so utterly convaluted and frankly bonkers, that not even the authors of age of Sigmar would dream it up.

Besides, the AoS fluff pretty clearly states that the Archaon present in AoS is the same Archaon that masterminded the destruction of the old world, even if it doesn't explicitly name him as Diedrick.

Personally I prefer the idea that Settra is the Celestant prime, I like the idea that my tomb kings will endure into the new era in some fashion.

Alot has happened since the end times and the new 'Archaon' would only be that for as long as his true identity remained a secret. We are not supposed to know eithers identity at them moment so it really wouldnt be that much of a stretch.

It definitely the most dramatic and extreme twist that ive seen done before.

But like i said if the AOS fluff states clearly and definitively otherwise then there is no arguing with that.

There was never anything that proved my theory in my mind or shifted this theory in favor of all others. Was merely pointing out what fit and how it would be an exciting twist.

I just hope it isn't someone like Karl Franz because not only would that be an insanely boring result but Franz wasn't exactly the most "Special" character fluff wise he was just the emperor of that time who had a cool griffon.

I'm hoping for Gilles Le Bretton for similar reasons as a way of reviving Bretonnians in some aspect since there fate is still somewhat a mystery.

Razios
16-11-2015, 22:25
The reason because Archaon is tested again is because he lost his memory, alongside everyone else.

You side, something josh have been testing around is that the winds change them, removing their memory until little by little they recover it, that is why sigmar free Nagash even when he is...you know, nagash, he didnt remenber him from the world that was.

Grey Seer Diatribe
17-11-2015, 04:24
As someone who's read the Archaon series:

Kastner wasn't this "I serve Chaos because I love them." Hell no, he was like "I ***** hate you ***** arsehats so much, I'm going to be your "Lord of the End Times", just so I can destroy this world and rob you of your play things. F'YOU!" Would it be nice that his soul was plucked from the aether to be be cleansed and reforged into Celestant Prime? Oh hell yeah, but I dunno, it feels like Kastner was remade as a Chaos play thing again.

KieranHayns
17-11-2015, 11:37
That would explain why the relationships between the gods have changed and why the old charcters dont seem to be somewhat ignorant of the fact that the come from a world that blew up

ryng_sting
19-11-2015, 08:02
Its just a name chosen by the dark gods. why does it have to be his alone.

Imrik is Caledor because Caledor is Imrik l. . . .er no because Imrik chose to take that title from the original Caledor. Why couldn't some everchosen successor do the same.

I was told that the lore clearly states that the AOS archaon IS diedrick. I just wanted to know where.

Because the book actually comfirms it's still him, as I have told you twice now...?

KieranHayns
19-11-2015, 13:59
Because the book actually comfirms it's still him, as I have told you twice now...?

And as i quite clearly stated. Where? Saying "The book says" over and over is pretty unhelpful

what book?

Stormhost Battletome?

The Bible?

This months issue of Loaded?!

Where?!

Anyway this was an older post weve moved on now so dont get your knickers in a twist over it.

Gorthor21
19-11-2015, 14:36
its in the main rulebook in section where it talks about chaos. i can give you the page and section when i get home later

edit: it talks about Archaon on page 34 in the first rulebook. it doesn't EXPLICITLY say that Archaon is Diedrick but he ceased being that man the day he read the PropProphecy. the AoS rulebook refers to the Everchosen, the Three-Eyed King(Sheerian) and Champion of Champions.

ryng_sting
19-11-2015, 21:13
And as i quite clearly stated. Where? Saying "The book says" over and over is pretty unhelpful

what [sic] book?

Stormhost Battletome?

The Bible?

This months [sic] issue of Loaded?!

Where?!

Anyway this was an older post weve [sic] moved on now so dont [sic] get your knickers in a twist over it.

Odd little zircon of wisdom from a man who just got caught out, plainly can't deal with it, and still writes like a borderline illiterate.

Darth Alec
20-11-2015, 06:12
Settra as the Celestant-Prime is tinfoil theory of the year for me. It's amazing, except for one small thing. Settra does not bow, Settra rules!

My guess is that he's some random mortal from the mortal realms, with a suitably tragic and heroic background. King of men yadda yadda. He would probably be cheapened a little by being from the world that was. IIRC, in Scion of the Storm, the main antagonist says that they've fought before. Him being the greatest of the mortal realms, essentially an old-world Sigmar of the mortal realms is a better fit.

hagen88
20-11-2015, 12:20
Settra as the Celestant-Prime is tinfoil theory of the year for me. It's amazing, except for one small thing. Settra does not bow, Settra rules!

My guess is that he's some random mortal from the mortal realms, with a suitably tragic and heroic background. King of men yadda yadda. He would probably be cheapened a little by being from the world that was. IIRC, in Scion of the Storm, the main antagonist says that they've fought before. Him being the greatest of the mortal realms, essentially an old-world Sigmar of the mortal realms is a better fit.

Yes, I completely agree with you on that, it's almost surely the case... But still I believe it would have been nicer to get an emotional connection to a character we already knew from the previous setting instead of just another "great hero of a time long lost and don't ask for more details because you will not get any". The Celestant Prime is basically our first greater demon of Order and it would have been really nice to have a deep and rich background along with it. But who knows, it might well be that we are all mistaken and in actual truth he is Felix Jaeger or Hisme Stoutheart!

Razios
20-11-2015, 21:27
Settra as the Celestant-Prime is tinfoil theory of the year for me. It's amazing, except for one small thing. Settra does not bow, Settra rules!
.

Funny thing Josh reynolds said jokeing that settra have not idea of what is happen and still thing he is charge

Darth Alec
20-11-2015, 21:56
Yes, I completely agree with you on that, it's almost surely the case... But still I believe it would have been nicer to get an emotional connection to a character we already knew from the previous setting instead of just another "great hero of a time long lost and don't ask for more details because you will not get any". The Celestant Prime is basically our first greater demon of Order and it would have been really nice to have a deep and rich background along with it. But who knows, it might well be that we are all mistaken and in actual truth he is Felix Jaeger or Hisme Stoutheart!

Given the vagueries of the C-Prime book, I think they might do something. Perhaps when we see the free people models, we'll get proper background on the Prime's kingdom and fall. The only remaining "Kings of Men" from the Old world are Brettonian, neither of which make a terrible amount of sense to keep as an amnesiac. Franz became Sigmar, and all the other kings are from the chaos wastes or from uncharted territory. Likely as not, GW are keeping the details scarce as a mystery, with only a vague idea of what the reality will be.


Funny thing Josh reynolds said jokeing that settra have not idea of what is happen and still thing he is charge

Josh's Ask.FM is a funny place. It's not Settra, but I would love to see him again.

KieranHayns
21-11-2015, 20:18
its in the main rulebook in section where it talks about chaos. i can give you the page and section when i get home later

edit: it talks about Archaon on page 34 in the first rulebook. it doesn't EXPLICITLY say that Archaon is Diedrick but he ceased being that man the day he read the PropProphecy. the AoS rulebook refers to the Everchosen, the Three-Eyed King(Sheerian) and Champion of Champions.


Thanks!

New novel hammers of sigmar gives a VERY vague hint about CP past.

KieranHayns
21-11-2015, 20:22
Odd little zircon of wisdom from a man who just got caught out, plainly can't deal with it, and still writes like a borderline illiterate.

Maybe your reading a different thread to everyone else my friend as i have clearly said im not swearing by the theory.

But hey take whatever half victories you can get my friend.

Its just a game!

KieranHayns
21-11-2015, 20:24
Settra as the Celestant-Prime is tinfoil theory of the year for me. It's amazing, except for one small thing. Settra does not bow, Settra rules!

My guess is that he's some random mortal from the mortal realms, with a suitably tragic and heroic background. King of men yadda yadda. He would probably be cheapened a little by being from the world that was. IIRC, in Scion of the Storm, the main antagonist says that they've fought before. Him being the greatest of the mortal realms, essentially an old-world Sigmar of the mortal realms is a better fit.

GW will have plenty of time to build up some backstory for him if that's the case as the fluff deepens

KieranHayns
21-11-2015, 20:27
Yes, I completely agree with you on that, it's almost surely the case... But still I believe it would have been nicer to get an emotional connection to a character we already knew from the previous setting instead of just another "great hero of a time long lost and don't ask for more details because you will not get any". The Celestant Prime is basically our first greater demon of Order and it would have been really nice to have a deep and rich background along with it. But who knows, it might well be that we are all mistaken and in actual truth he is Felix Jaeger or Hisme Stoutheart!

It may possibly be both.

A character that we knew of from the old world who rose to prominence in the new setting before Sigmar nabbed him. Would be cool if it was Felix but he was getting on a bit (Anythings possible though)

Azaireal
07-12-2015, 00:50
No matter, paint him Blue and Red.

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings".

It's also a hammer
30-12-2015, 08:07
Maybe it's Vlad? He became an Elector so could be considered a "King"? He certainly saved humanity more times throughout the End Times than most mortal heroes!


Or it's bloody Valten because part of his soul was still tied to Sigmar and Ghal Maraz

flota
30-12-2015, 20:27
I'm going with abhorash

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