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View Full Version : Was the Lion forced to divide his legion before the sundering of Caliban?



W0197158
23-11-2015, 05:03
Title says it all. Personally curious if Calgar forced the Dark Angels to divide before or after the betrayal on Caliban by Luther. If so, this would give a good idea of how many marines were involved in the mini heresy and would pose some interesting questions surounding the successor chapters knowledge and involvement in the fighting. I feel like I read that the Lion felt politically forced to divide his own legion personally before chasing after the legions, but I couldn't point to any source or passage denoting this. Does anyone have any particular knowledge on this subject? Thanks in advance

The Black Shield
23-11-2015, 06:16
No, he was no longer around. As far as I understand it he was shortly after Siege of Terra. Read this http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson.

Allen
23-11-2015, 15:10
Title says it all. Personally curious if Calgar forced the Dark Angels to divide before or after the betrayal on Caliban by Luther. If so, this would give a good idea of how many marines were involved in the mini heresy and would pose some interesting questions surounding the successor chapters knowledge and involvement in the fighting. I feel like I read that the Lion felt politically forced to divide his own legion personally before chasing after the legions, but I couldn't point to any source or passage denoting this. Does anyone have any particular knowledge on this subject? Thanks in advance

Marneus Calgar is the current Ultramarine Chapter Master (year 40.000-ish)...he wasn't around at the time of the Heresy (year 30.000-ish). Maybe you mean Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion. Anyway, Luther almost killed the Lion during their duel on the Dark Angels homeworld...shortly after the end of the duel the Lion disappeared (unknowingly by his Legion he was whisked away by the Watchers in the Dark) and Luther, mad with grief, was taken prisoner. For this reason there was no interaction between the Lion and Guilliman after the betrayal, and anyway Guilliman decided to split the Legions in a series of less threatening Chapters only during the aftermath of the Heresy, when things were cooling down a little. Not during the Heresy itself.

The Dark Angels took a brutal beating during the destruction of their homeworld: a sizeable part of the Legion rebelled, the training facilities and the novices themselves where destroyed and the loyalist forces suffered heavy casualties. According to official fluff the First Legion was required (as any other Legion) to divide in several smaller Chapters, but gave birth only to three confirmed ones...that means the number of active Astartes was quite low and the Legion wasn't in good shape.

The Black Shield
23-11-2015, 17:34
In other words what was left after the Fallen were whisked away was divided into new Chapters, but the Lion was not there.

Allen
24-11-2015, 15:37
In other words what was left after the Fallen were whisked away was divided into new Chapters, but the Lion was not there.

Not exactly.
After the betrayal of Luthor the Angels (now leaderless) were bloodied in the battles before the Siege of Terra and after it. The division of every loyalist Legion in Chapters came years after the Siege, when the last traitors footholds in the Imperium were routed and corraled towards the Eye of Terror. The Second Founding was instituted when Guilliman was more or less single-handedly running the Imperium and redesigning its structure, laws and bureaucracy...not when he and his brothers were fighting to repel Horus.

The Black Shield
25-11-2015, 18:09
Technically my last statement still stands. It is an over simplification, but it still stands.

Karhedron
26-11-2015, 07:34
After the betrayal of Luthor the Angels (now leaderless) were bloodied in the battles before the Siege of Terra and after it.

Not quite, the fall of Caliban occurred after the Siege of Terra, after the HH had ended. After the Heresy came a 10-year period called the Scouring which was the Loyalists driving the Traitors out of the Imperium (mainly into the Eye). It is not clear exactly when during that period Caliban was destroyed

agurus1
28-11-2015, 03:18
Somewhat off topic but how did the Dark Angels explain the dissapperance of Caliban?

ChaosTicket
28-11-2015, 03:35
Caliban wasnt destroyed by the renegades, but by a warp storm created by the Chaos Gods. I kind of wonder why a warp storm didnt destroy all the Dark Angels fleet surrounding Caliban.

Razios
28-11-2015, 14:33
Caliban wasnt destroyed by the renegades, but by a warp storm created by the Chaos Gods. I kind of wonder why a warp storm didnt destroy all the Dark Angels fleet surrounding Caliban.

Because aparenly the warp storm was made by cypher in the future to transport dark angel from 40k into caliban but stop at the last moment which cause the riff in the first place.....

Sir_Turalyon
28-11-2015, 18:28
Title says it all. Personally curious if Calgar forced the Dark Angels to divide before or after the betrayal on Caliban by Luther. If so, this would give a good idea of how many marines were involved in the mini heresy and would pose some interesting questions surounding the successor chapters knowledge and involvement in the fighting. I feel like I read that the Lion felt politically forced to divide his own legion personally before chasing after the legions, but I couldn't point to any source or passage denoting this. Does anyone have any particular knowledge on this subject? Thanks in advance


Quite the contrary, Lions' disapperance was what enabled Guilliman to seize power and break up Legions... other loyalist Primarchs had their Legions either decimated on Istavan, or decimated on Terra, or small in first place (Russ). Dark Angels and Ultramarines were two only big Legions left, and having been one to relieve Siege of Terra with Russ, Lion was perfect person for other Primarchs who wanted their Legions intact to rally behind. Instead, Luther rebels out of nowhere, Lion disappears, some Primarchs seek leader in Guilliman instead, some are coerced, Russ is promised to be left alone if he cooperates, Dark Angels join Blood Angels and Salamanders in having nothing to say and only opposition to Guilliman becoming new Warmaster is Dorn doing his emo routine. Kind of explains why Chaos Gods bothered with Luther in first place.

Kiro
28-11-2015, 19:40
...Instead, Luther rebels out of nowhere...

And now I can't shake the image of the Lion getting RKO'd.

The Black Shield
28-11-2015, 21:24
Caliban did not disappear. All that is left of Caliban is The Rock, the Chapter Fortress of the Dark Angels.

kilkrazy
29-11-2015, 13:43
Is this before or after Russ decided to get delusions of grander in his head and pretend they were wolves?

The Black Shield
29-11-2015, 20:38
What do you mean?

Denny
30-11-2015, 16:46
And now I can't shake the image of the Lion getting RKO'd.

LOL. Actual out-loud LOL.

Prodigalson
30-11-2015, 19:45
What makes you think that the Dark Angel legion ever really disbanded. Their Codex basically states that the Grand Master of the Dark Angel is still running the show. You can count on the Dark Angels (if anyone) to do what they want and play along with disbanding.

We aren't quite sure, but I bet that that the Second Founding happened after a large portion of the Scouring was over. I can't see any of the Primarchs giving over their Legions until everything had calmed down.

The Black Shield
30-11-2015, 21:27
All the Legions that still had enough Marines to be split into chapters were. The dividing into chapters happened seven years after the Horus Heresy. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding#Second_Founding

Sir_Turalyon
02-12-2015, 14:20
What makes you think that the Dark Angel legion ever really disbanded. Their Codex basically states that the Grand Master of the Dark Angel is still running the show. You can count on the Dark Angels (if anyone) to do what they want and play along with disbanding.

We aren't quite sure, but I bet that that the Second Founding happened after a large portion of the Scouring was over. I can't see any of the Primarchs giving over their Legions until everything had calmed down.


True; before Lion took command, the Emperors First Legion was operating as mostly-independent Chapters, with council of Chapter Masters in charge of Legion. When demanded to split into independent Chapters, the Legion just reverted to way they run themselves without a Primarch.

ChaosTicket
03-12-2015, 04:02
Some but not all 2nd founding chapters are still well connected with the forebears as they werent created from scratch like later foundings. The Dark Angels and their successors essentially operate as 4 parts at least when it comes to hunting the Fallen. Other 2nd founding chapter have a rivalry such as the White Scar Successors.