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It's also a hammer
23-11-2015, 19:07
Hi re-starting thread here in general as advised better place for it.

Basically who is the best Primarch in terms of rules and abilities in the game, not the fluff.

Scammel
23-11-2015, 19:15
Full disclaimer: Never played with any of 'em, but Mortarion looks monstrous on paper and often gets a special mention in discussions I've seen.

deathrain-commander
23-11-2015, 19:24
Just restricted to the ones that currently have rules (since the Lion's rules haven't arrived yet, and they're sure to be incredible, since he's the best):

In an actual smack down, one on one fight, Horus will beat basically every Primarch mathhammer wise. The only one who even has a slight chance of outlasting him is Perturabo with the hammer, but he'd need to get super lucky to win. He's also got a ton of support abilities, so he's easily the overall best. Other standouts are Perturabo (obviously) Roboute, Fulgrim, Ferrus and Vulkan. Angron is also a beast, but he'll win less often than you'd expect because he's fragile and he has trouble outlasting the tougher Primarchs, and he has no support abilities (except a Fearless bubble).

Outside a smackdown fight, Corvus is incredibly hard to pin down (and can beat a lot of Primarchs bouncing in and out of combat via hit and run), Ferrus is a good tank booster and has a lot of shooting, Alpharius can boost your army and Lorgar is an incredible psyker.

However, if you're looking for the Primarch who's coolest, and has rules, it's Corvus. Corvus is the man.

Foulacy
23-11-2015, 19:57
Vulkan but I'm clearly biased ha.

He's arguably the toughest primarch..

He is strong against psykers..

His hammer is strength 10 AP1 that hits at I. (And concur dive armour babe and instant death)

He is quite shooty.

Good leadership boost.

totgeboren
23-11-2015, 21:08
I heard Lorgar with upgraded psychics is pretty mean, simply because he always gets Invisibility and can cast it super-easy (though oddly enough, non of all the other powers he has access to would do him any good in a Primarch fight).

I'm really looking forward to Magnus getting rules. Will be fun!

aim
23-11-2015, 21:18
... armour babe...

I assume that was meant to be 'armour bane', and is possibly the funniest typo I've ever seen here.

Mozzamanx
23-11-2015, 21:18
It depends how you define 'best' and what you want them to do. In my own biased opinion I'd say that the front-runners are Vulkan, Alpharius, Corax and Guilliman. An honourable mention goes to Lorgar's earlier ruleset, but he's since been rebalanced.

Vulkan is a tank through and through. Monstrously resilient, a nasty melee brute and gets a beam weapon to shoot with. He's not particularly subtle but as a straightforward beatstick he's horrible. Get him upfield in a transport and you can't really go wrong as he bludgeons everything to death with a big hammer.
Alpharius is the total opposite; as a fighter he's one of the worst (Note- Still a Primarch). However, he gives his entire army Preferred Enemy, which translates to a ~30% damage increase across the board. Needless to say that this is absolutely brilliant. That he comes in at a lower price point (Again, Primarch's are relative) is just icing on the cake.
Corax is nice because he has a clear role, and is given all of the tools he needs to perform it. And that role is devouring anything and everything below another Primarch. Between Jump and Invisible, he's going to hit combat every time. And then I8 and a billion attacks gets him Sweeping. He sets up a nice piece for Raven Guard where he deals with the infantry, and the rest of the army can play at the harder targets.
Finally, Guilliman brings that excellent-all-round character that you'd expect from an Ultramarine. Brings excellent army support while being deceptively good at beating people up, he's actually near the top of Primarch-vs-Primarch duels. Not that it's a clever way to use them. Also makes Invictarii into Troops, which are just wonderful to have around.

I'd say it's probably Alpharius, he certainly seems the most popular within lists.
Or you could just get a Typhon. :cheese:

Inquisitor Shego
23-11-2015, 21:28
Where/how does Curze rank on the scale? Worth taking or worth-less?

Foulacy
23-11-2015, 22:27
I assume that was meant to be 'armour bane', and is possibly the funniest typo I've ever seen here.

What do you mean typo, doesn't he get an armoured babe to help him out? Hahah oops.

deathrain-commander
24-11-2015, 03:31
I heard Lorgar with upgraded psychics is pretty mean, simply because he always gets Invisibility and can cast it super-easy (though oddly enough, non of all the other powers he has access to would do him any good in a Primarch fight).

I'm really looking forward to Magnus getting rules. Will be fun!

Actually, under the more up-to-date Tempest rules he only gets access to Telekinesis and Divination, probably for exactly that reason. Without psychic powers, he will mathematically lose to every Primarch in one on one (even Alpharius) but he can close a lot of gaps with judicious use of Precognition.

Spiney Norman
24-11-2015, 08:36
It used to be Lorgar when he had pretty much foolproof access to invisibility, now that's gone he's pretty weak. I'm going to have to say Vulkan for sheer hardness and awesome immortality gimmicks in his fluff.

totgeboren
24-11-2015, 09:43
I never noticed that they changed Telepathy for Divination for Lorgar in HH book 5. They didn't make any mention of it in the FAQ/Errata so it totally slipped me by.

Denny
24-11-2015, 13:37
in a one on one beatdown Horus seems the man, thanks mainly due to Disabling Strike.
Of course, as others have noted, that does not make him necessarily the best primarch from a tabletop view (although he is still pretty awesome)

Of course, we haven't seen Sanguinius . . .

iamcjb
24-11-2015, 16:18
Horus for a 1vs1, although I think Guilliman gives him a run for his money when support rules are factored in. Perturabo is awesome too for some reason, probably due to the insane amount of IW fanboys working for GW and FW.

Kijamon
24-11-2015, 17:06
Not convinced there is a 'best'. A lot of people think Dorn is rubbish but if you build an army around him from top to bottom, he is probably up there as one of the top choices.

His special rule that adds d3 to assault results anywhere on the board can tie or win you combats out of nowhere or indeed since you have army wide LD10 can keep you in there without fleeing when you lose heavily.

Then you get to take thunderhammer stormshield terminators as troops and even if your opponent wants to get rid of him, he's built to last.

If you ignore all that and put him on the battlefield in a gladiator style fight with another Primarch then yes, he's pretty poor.

insectum7
24-11-2015, 17:40
in a one on one beatdown Horus seems the man, thanks mainly due to Disabling Strike.
Of course, as others have noted, that does not make him necessarily the best primarch from a tabletop view (although he is still pretty awesome)

Of course, we haven't seen Sanguinius . . .

This made me think about the possibility of another version of Horus later on. Presumably the current Horus rules represent him relatively early in the Heresy. But at the end of the Heresy we know that Horus kills Sanguinius with ease, and then goes on to bring the Emperor down.

Will there be different rules for "late Heresy/endgame Horus"?

Wolf Lord Balrog
24-11-2015, 17:51
Leman Russ is the only answer you'll get from me. FOR RUSS! FOR THE WOLFTIME! :)

Denny
24-11-2015, 17:59
This made me think about the possibility of another version of Horus later on. Presumably the current Horus rules represent him relatively early in the Heresy. But at the end of the Heresy we know that Horus kills Sanguinius with ease, and then goes on to bring the Emperor down.

Will there be different rules for "late Heresy/endgame Horus"?

I hope so, just for the modelling opportunities if nothing else. Daemon Prince versions of the traitor Primarchs would be sweet.

Horus38
24-11-2015, 18:12
I hope so, just for the modelling opportunities if nothing else. Daemon Prince versions of the traitor Primarchs would be sweet.

FW said early on when they first started the HH project they were looking to do alternate sculpts for the traitor primarchs as the HH timeline progressed. Whether they're still looking to do that I haven't heard any new updates.

narradisall
24-11-2015, 20:15
I hope the demon prince versions don't end up too crazy.

Oh and Sanguinius was weakened from kicking ass for ages that's why *sniff* the awesome *sob* primarch lost.

Novacane
24-11-2015, 21:29
I heard Lorgar with upgraded psychics is pretty mean, simply because he always gets Invisibility and can cast it super-easy (though oddly enough, non of all the other powers he has access to would do him any good in a Primarch fight).

I'm really looking forward to Magnus getting rules. Will be fun!

I second Lorgar.

While he isn't the best at combat (Horus), his skills elsewhere make him, and the squad he is attached to, nigh-unkillable.

EDIT: Nugger, I didn't realize Tempest turned him into such a wimp.

If you want cheese, take Horus. If you want to be taken seriously, Morty is fun to play with

Inquisitor Shego
25-11-2015, 03:29
Sorry, I don't think anyone noticed when I asked earlier. Anybody know how the Night Lord primarch handles by comparison? Is he a useful component to a NL army?

Losing Command
25-11-2015, 07:33
If you build your Night Lords army around causing Fear and using Night Fighting to survive/get close the first few turns, then yes Curze seems a solid addition looking at his rules. He also comes with Stealth and Shrouded himself, so he and any unit he joins are getting some sweet coversaves.
But he isn't a flat out force multiplier like Alpharius, nor the unstoppable beat-stick that is Vulkan, and neither the lawnmower that is Corvax. But anything that is affected by Fear tests is going to have a hard time hitting back in melee against him ... unless your opponent keeps rolling insanely good for the Ld. tests. Being centered around Ld. can make Curze a bit hit-or-miss I think.

Dorn doesn't seem that bad either. With bonusses to cose combat results, Ld. and him and his unit getting the Crusader special rule, his thing seems to be winning close combat and deleting enemy units via the use of Sweeping Advance. And never being wounded on a 2+ is also kinda nifty if you ask me (except for Str D ofcourse)

Denny
25-11-2015, 10:29
FW said early on when they first started the HH project they were looking to do alternate sculpts for the traitor primarchs as the HH timeline progressed. Whether they're still looking to do that I haven't heard any new updates.

Does feel a little harsh that you'd get two versions of the traitors but not the loyalists.

I suppose they could do alternative versions with different weapons or something?
(Or injuries/battle damage/new resolve in the face of their former brothers etc.)

duffybear1988
25-11-2015, 11:17
Vulkan is a beast

Dkoz
25-11-2015, 14:15
Sanguinius is number one no doubt about it.

Mozzamanx
25-11-2015, 18:30
Does feel a little harsh that you'd get two versions of the traitors but not the loyalists.

I suppose they could do alternative versions with different weapons or something?
(Or injuries/battle damage/new resolve in the face of their former brothers etc.)

Corax has been released with 2 rulesets, representing him before and after the Dropsite Massacre.
The change sees him losing a Wound and Attack, his armour drops to 3+, and he loses his special Jump Pack and pistols. All of which are pretty hard losses to deal with.
In exchange he hates Traitor Astartes, grabs a Heavy Bolter, and gets Scout/Infiltrate. He also comes in a whole 100pts cheaper.

Not sure if any of the other Loyalists would work. Vulkan could be a fine radioactive mist and Ferrus a headless objective marker...

iamcjb
26-11-2015, 08:06
Corax has been released with 2 rulesets, representing him before and after the Dropsite Massacre.
The change sees him losing a Wound and Attack, his armour drops to 3+, and he loses his special Jump Pack and pistols. All of which are pretty hard losses to deal with.
In exchange he hates Traitor Astartes, grabs a Heavy Bolter, and gets Scout/Infiltrate. He also comes in a whole 100pts cheaper.

Not sure if any of the other Loyalists would work. Vulkan could be a fine radioactive mist and Ferrus a headless objective marker...
What about angry Guilliman, angry Russ, extra defensive, angry Dorn and over 9000 Sanguinius?

Novacane
26-11-2015, 15:24
What about angry Guilliman, angry Russ, extra defensive, angry Dorn and over 9000 Sanguinius?

So.. Horus?

It's also a hammer
26-11-2015, 17:58
Ok specifying things: lets say best Primarch in terms of army wide abilities to the game and a second vote for best Primarch for sheer one on one toe to toe smashy smashy against other Primarchs

Mawduce
27-11-2015, 02:42
Not convinced there is a 'best'. A lot of people think Dorn is rubbish but if you build an army around him from top to bottom, he is probably up there as one of the top choices.

His special rule that adds d3 to assault results anywhere on the board can tie or win you combats out of nowhere or indeed since you have army wide LD10 can keep you in there without fleeing when you lose heavily.

Then you get to take thunderhammer stormshield terminators as troops and even if your opponent wants to get rid of him, he's built to last.

If you ignore all that and put him on the battlefield in a gladiator style fight with another Primarch then yes, he's pretty poor.

Dorn feels like Dorn. A leader of men, not a selfish come at me bro type.

GrandmasterWang
27-11-2015, 05:05
How is Ferrus Manus?

I have the Angron model but have actually never played him in 30k. In a 1 vs 1 situation would he beat over 50% of the Primarchs?

Cheers

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iamcjb
27-11-2015, 14:51
How is Ferrus Manus?

I have the Angron model but have actually never played him in 30k. In a 1 vs 1 situation would he beat over 50% of the Primarchs?

Cheers

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Without having all the stats in front of me I couldn't work it all out but I would estimate that he would beat less than 50% 1v1. Perturabo seems to have been given Angrons combat stats. Angron is brutal vs non primarchs though.

DuskRaider
28-11-2015, 02:31
While Mortarion isn't the best at wrecking armour like some of his brothers, he's bar none the most resilient on the table (as he should be). I've had him survive epic amounts of enemy fire, weather it, and proceed to become an Astartes blender when hitting enemy lines. Against his brethren, he does lack with Unwieldy on Silence, but he'll take their hits and give back. Against anything that doesn't have Eternal Warrior, he'll eat it alive. Personally, I think he's very underrated. Not to mention he's technically the fastest Primarch in the game with his teleport ability.

Spiney Norman
28-11-2015, 14:14
What about angry Guilliman, angry Russ, extra defensive, angry Dorn and over 9000 Sanguinius?

I think Guilliman sat on his statis chair after Fulgrim sticks it to him would be an infinitely more appealing option.

insectum7
28-11-2015, 20:23
I think Guilliman sat on his statis chair after Fulgrim sticks it to him would be an infinitely more appealing option.

Heh. Says the guy with the Lorgar avatar. :)


I'm of the opinion that the loyalists don't really need multiple versions , although the caveat for me is I haven't read any HH novel other than First Heretic. The traitors though. . . well, I'm specifically remembering that Mortarion, Magnus, Angron and Fulgrim all had daemon prince models for Epic. That's a pretty obvious transformation from "mere" Primarch.

adreal
28-11-2015, 21:31
Horus will need to be buffed to be on par with the emperor, while he never became a prince, his power level was over 9000.

Fulgrim, angron, lorgar, mortarion, magnus all became daemon primarchs, so will need new rules

Scammel
28-11-2015, 21:32
I'm of the opinion that the loyalists don't really need multiple versions , although the caveat for me is I haven't read any HH novel other than First Heretic. The traitors though. . . well, I'm specifically remembering that Mortarion, Magnus, Angron and Fulgrim all had daemon prince models for Epic. That's a pretty obvious transformation from "mere" Primarch.

I'm not that clued up on Mortarion, but Magnus maintains the same form for some time after the Heresy, so probably wouldn't warrant a new sculpt - however, Angron and Fulgrim definitely warrant gribbliness.

Losing Command
29-11-2015, 04:15
Of Angron and Fulgrim I'm sure that they'd become daemonic before the siege of terra. Not that sure about Mortarion, but it was either on the way to or from terra that he and his entire fleet got stuck in a warp storm and ended up having to submit to Nurgle before getting out.

Magnus could probably look like whatever he wanted before and after prospero got burned. With how casually that guy changes his size it would be suiting if FW made an inflatable model for him, to adapt his size at random intervals like in the fluff :p

Scammel
29-11-2015, 08:26
Horus will need to be buffed to be on par with the emperor, while he never became a prince, his power level was over 9000.

He definitely needs a post-Molech buff, though whether he ever was actually on par with the Big E remains to be seen - we'll see how that final fight plays out in the novels.

Dkoz
29-11-2015, 12:55
Sanguinius is number one, he knowingly goes in to a fight that's going to kill him so he can insure victory for the emperor. Also unlike many of his loud mouth brothers who boast about their abilities he quietly displays his abilities time after time.

kilkrazy
29-11-2015, 14:34
I know he hasn't been released yet. But with the way his brothers go on about him. It will be Sangy. He will be the Primarch beat stick with army wide, speed, choppy BA buffs probably.
If the enemy put huge multiple plans into taking you out, and say only a daemon version of one you can take him out. they're really, really worried.

Currently... Probably the Voice of Terra. Dorn. Not at chop chop, but he makes everyone better.

Scammel
29-11-2015, 16:55
I have an inkling that, bar possibly post-Molech Horus, it'll be Magnus that takes the top spot. In addition to a beefy (if not exactly skilled or quick) base profile, it seems entirely reasonable that he might be PML 5 with access to, if not full knowledge of, every discipline.

daveNYC
30-11-2015, 18:54
In theory Magnus should be a near unstoppable psychic killing machine, but given the way psyker powers work in 40k, I don't think that will be the case. Crazy magic powers are tough to balance, and I think that Forgeworld will err on the side of weakness instead of risking creating an upgraded Fateweaver/Be'lakor deathstar monstrosity.

StrikeDeath
30-11-2015, 19:18
Considering the re-balance they applied with Lorgar I think they'll probably have Magnus psychically powerful, decent in combat, but not unstoppable. Don't be expecting an Invisible Cyclops ;)

Inquisitor Shego
30-11-2015, 23:25
God damn these temptations. I swore I'd leave GW. I swore I would not be swayed......

but the idea of a:
+ 1 Forge World battle for calth night lord bundle
+ 1 pack of Melta Guns
+ 1 Dark Vengeance Chaos Bundle from Ebay

is tempting the pants off of me

Losing Command
01-12-2015, 07:43
You know what they say, the dark side has cookies.

I don't expect Magnus to become very powerfull rule-wise. Psychic powers are a mess, casting is unreliable unless you have tons of WC battery units or rediculus special rules (librarian formation) and FW seems reluctant to give something rules that make it very good at casting spells, which isn't a bad thing really.

However, if they'd give Magnus an entire set of spells that are not lolrandom and don't need 4 units of pink horrors sitting on their arses in a corner to provide enough WC, meaning that they can be acurately calculated into his point value ... now that could be very nice indeed.

Spiney Norman
01-12-2015, 08:07
You know what they say, the dark side has cookies.

I don't expect Magnus to become very powerfull rule-wise. Psychic powers are a mess, casting is unreliable unless you have tons of WC battery units or rediculus special rules (librarian formation) and FW seems reluctant to give something rules that make it very good at casting spells, which isn't a bad thing really.

However, if they'd give Magnus an entire set of spells that are not lolrandom and don't need 4 units of pink horrors sitting on their arses in a corner to provide enough WC, meaning that they can be acurately calculated into his point value ... now that could be very nice indeed.

I genuinely don't know what they'll do with Magnus, Lorgar is already pretty much the epitome of what it means to be a very reliable psyker (chooses his powers instead of rolling, passes WC on 3+), presumably Magnus will be L4 and have those two rules as well, or maybe he'll just know every spell in his chosen discipline.

StrikeDeath
01-12-2015, 20:35
For Magnus they could make a specific 1K Sons spell-list (in fact they could do that as the big 'thing' for Trait, force you to take at least 1 Librarian ala Word Bearers Chaplains but have a sizeable downside to the Legion as a whole) that is designed and balanced by the FW team. Sure you can have access to a couple of the BRB spell-lists, but why not use this themed one instead (if you say 'Invisibility' I will nuke you from orbit ;) )

Scammel
01-12-2015, 20:52
For Magnus they could make a specific 1K Sons spell-list (in fact they could do that as the big 'thing' for Trait, force you to take at least 1 Librarian ala Word Bearers Chaplains but have a sizeable downside to the Legion as a whole) that is designed and balanced by the FW team. Sure you can have access to a couple of the BRB spell-lists, but why not use this themed one instead (if you say 'Invisibility' I will nuke you from orbit ;) )

Because it would be odd if the Sons didn't use the disciplines they pioneered - the legion is heavily structured around them.

daveNYC
01-12-2015, 21:08
Because it would be odd if the Sons didn't use the disciplines they pioneered - the legion is heavily structured around them.

And per the fluff, Magnus is the master of all the disciplines. Not that fluff should be the be all end all when doing rules, but in Magnus' case, things get messy since Magnus' main claim to fame is being the most powerful psyker around. That and bad depth perception.

Mozzamanx
01-12-2015, 21:25
They could always pull a Teclis; Allow him to choose total Mastery of a single discipline, or to mix and match a chosen power from every individual. It still lets you pull off crazy combinations but requires at least a little thought beforehand.
As for the Sons, I'm a big fan of giving them a watery version of Psychic Brotherhood as their Legiones Astartes. Tie the WC success rate to the size of the squad and limit their access to Powers; either Primaris, or hand-pick 2 to 3 from each Discipline and access is dependent on squad size again.

It's also a hammer
01-12-2015, 22:11
Do we not think Russ will be a contender? Surely he'll be on par with all save Angron choppy wise but maybe give good rules to his army. In fact wolves in general may be interesting?

daveNYC
01-12-2015, 22:46
Not sure what they'll do with Russ. A lot of what he does overlaps with other Primarchs. Tough to kill, which is Mortarion's gig. A CC beast, which is Angron's specialty. Not exactly a team player, so heaps of army wide buffs aren't what I'd be expecting, and not known as a deep tactical thinker, so deployment or flanking shenanigans are probably out.

Not that any of the above would be ragequit stupid or anything, just that I don't see a single defining characteristic in him that I would grab onto and build a ruleset off of. Not like Fulgrim, Alpharius, or Magus have.

cuda1179
02-12-2015, 06:04
When it comes to Magnus, he is the strongest psycher out there except for the Emperor. He should surpass Logar's enhanced version entirely, as in at least one more mastery level, if not two. Let him auto-cast powers, no roll needed (Still uses his minimum warp charge though). As for weapons, no ranged weapons, his psychic powers are enough. Just give him a suped-up version of a Force weapon. Something akin to a Super Psychic hood would also be appropriate. I'm not sure what, but some kind of area-effect pychic ability?

Another thing I'd like to see it Magnus counting as a monstrous creature. He's stated as being head and shoulders taller than even the next tallest Primarch. It would definitely make him unique.

daveNYC
02-12-2015, 21:06
Magnus' size is mutable though, and I don't think that having him be a Monstrous Creature would be a particularly good thing. Even if he's on the tall side, I don't think they should call out any single primarch by sticking them in a different size category. Nobody wants the twins stuck at being just 'bulky' do they?

They should give Magnus some sort of ranged weapon, just don't make it one of those crazy melta-fleshbane-rending murder beasts that everyone else gets. Doesn't even Angron have a ranged weapon?

narradisall
02-12-2015, 21:20
He beats them over the head with his book.

Scammel
02-12-2015, 21:29
Magnus' size is mutable though, and I don't think that having him be a Monstrous Creature would be a particularly good thing. Even if he's on the tall side, I don't think they should call out any single primarch by sticking them in a different size category. Nobody wants the twins stuck at being just 'bulky' do they?

I guess he sits on the cusp. I get your point about him potentially being an oddity rules-wise, but he does grapple with Dreadnoughts.


They should give Magnus some sort of ranged weapon, just don't make it one of those crazy melta-fleshbane-rending murder beasts that everyone else gets. Doesn't even Angron have a ranged weapon?

I don't recall Magnus having a ranged weapon, bar a Boltgun/pistol in some older artwork. Truth be told he probably isn't going to need one.

cuda1179
03-12-2015, 02:11
In the actual background Magnus was able to choke-out Leman Russ while holding him up in the air one-handed. Russ got out of that sticky situation by kicking Magnus in the eye. Just try to extrapolate that a bit. The length of Magnus's hand to his head was the length of Leman Russ's neck to his foot. That's about the equivalent of me fighting my 4-year old son.

At the very least he should make Fateweaver look like a lowly astropath.

Scammel
03-12-2015, 08:52
In the actual background Magnus was able to choke-out Leman Russ while holding him up in the air one-handed. Russ got out of that sticky situation by kicking Magnus in the eye. Just try to extrapolate that a bit. The length of Magnus's hand to his head was the length of Leman Russ's neck to his foot. That's about the equivalent of me fighting my 4-year old son.

At the very least he should make Fateweaver look like a lowly astropath.

Not in the account given in ATS, but the guy's still big. Why are we arguing, anyway? The Primarchs cover clearly shows him amongst the others.

Marshal_Loss
03-12-2015, 11:38
Magnus is going to be large but not monstrous creature size. They want the scale consistent prior to the implementation of Daemon Primarchs. While Magnus & Russ will likely be duelling in their models (ala Fulgrim/Manus), they will take liberties with the models (just as with the 'incorrect' weapons on Fulgrim & Manus). Also, remember that each piece of art is an 'interpretation' rather than an authoritative representative of appearance/scale.

source: the guy who will design him @ FW open day

daveNYC
03-12-2015, 15:16
I guess he sits on the cusp. I get your point about him potentially being an oddity rules-wise, but he does grapple with Dreadnoughts.



I don't recall Magnus having a ranged weapon, bar a Boltgun/pistol in some older artwork. Truth be told he probably isn't going to need one.

Probably not, but it's nice to have options you know? Plus the primarch weapons are nice ways to add a little more color to the character. Maybe Magnus decided to try and bond with Ferrus or Vulkan and made his own bolt gun while hanging out with them in the workshop, or he has some upscaled version of a traditional Prospero weapon.

Not sure I'm a fan of having Magnus and Russ being part of a duel diorama. I understand the motivation and it's a climatic scene similar to Fulgrim and Ferrus, but it also limits what the designer can do, and to be honest, the Ferrus/Fulgrim diorama doesn't looks so hot when put together. Ferrus is swinging at air and Fulgrim kind of looks like he's jumping backwards while already out of range of Ferrus' hammer.

Casper Hawser
03-12-2015, 20:41
They should give Magnus some sort of ranged weapon, just don't make it one of those crazy melta-fleshbane-rending murder beasts that everyone else gets. Doesn't even Angron have a ranged weapon?

Angrons got a master crafted plasma pistol I think it's called the spite furnace although there is no sign of it on his sculpt.



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Bob Arctor
04-12-2015, 00:47
Angrons got a master crafted plasma pistol I think it's called the spite furnace although there is no sign of it on his sculpt.



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I always assumed it was in the holster on his right hip...

Casper Hawser
04-12-2015, 07:04
I'm going to go and have a look when I get up I've had him for a couple of years but haven't plucked up the courage to paint him I'll feel stupid if it's there.

Well my model hasn't got the pistol looked on FW website and there it is so I either missed it when putting him together or there wasn't one it's a bit late for me to contact FW and I may have made a mistake I'm normally pretty careful with that sort of stuff I'm gutted.


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Mandragola
04-12-2015, 19:05
(if you say 'Invisibility' I will nuke you from orbit ;) )

Only if you can snap fire that nuke.

I play imperial fists and am a bit annoyed by Dorn. He does actually make his whole army a load better, and his unit gets furious charge too. The annoying thing is that he's armed with a glorified two-handed power axe, when other people are going around with thunder hammers that strike at full initiative.

Primarchs suffer from the fact that knights exist. It kind of sucks to race across the board with your 450 point character just for some knight to stomp him off the board. And not all primarchs can even hurt knights at all (looking at you Curze).

Any army containing a Primarch will want to get them into combat. None of them begin to justify their cost as shooting units. That means you're going to have to buy them a transport of some kind and a unit to go with. That's going to cost you. It's not going to leave that many points for fancy stuff like guns elsewhere in your list.

Accordingly, it seems to me that there are a pretty limited number of primarchs that you can really build an army around - or at least an army that doesn't auto-lose to knights.

This is where Angron comes back into contention for me. You do not want to be charged by Angron and charging Angron is an only marginally less stupid idea. He might struggle a bit in a 1:1 fight but his world eater friends will tend to join in, which will change things. Angron in a Spartan with a chaplain, apothecary and 20 tactical marines or breachers will make a pretty big hole in whatever they hit.

Vulkan and Ferrus both have a chance of putting a knight down before it attacks as well, but they don't have enough attacks to be sure it will work.

A couple of the primarchs are mobile enough on their own not to require a transport. Mortarion weirdly teleports around. Curze and Corvax have jump packs, and we can assume Sanguinius will be quick too. That helps.

Lorgar may not be able to turn invisible any more (which was ridiculous) but he can cast precognition on himself, which is harsh. His proto-crozuis is a more than adequate weapon to bash people with and he does get +1A from 2 weapons. He's pretty decent.

StrikeDeath
04-12-2015, 20:37
The thing for me about Primarch's in game is that they just don't feel right to have on the board in anything less than 4-5k or larger. Yeah you can field one in 2.5k but what you're actually doing is playing a 2k list and tacking on 1 guy. Mainly because people will go for the Knights because in-game they'll do so much more for you than a Primarch ever could. Being effective from turn 0 onwards after all.

Add in that, as Mandragola mentions, Primarch's need to be in combat to be worthwhile and in smaller games there's just not enough for them to go through before they get given the run around.

Magister
04-12-2015, 21:01
More importantly, will Russ have a beard?

Losing Command
05-12-2015, 08:55
Add in that, as Mandragola mentions, Primarch's need to be in combat to be worthwhile and in smaller games there's just not enough for them to go through before they get given the run around.

I don't know, but having Alpharius hidden somewhere just to give your Moritats with dual plasma pistols Preferred seems pretty worthwhile to me :evilgrin:

Kodanshi
05-12-2015, 16:03
More importantly, will Russ have a beard?

And wet leopard growls?

Mandragola
06-12-2015, 15:29
I don't know, but having Alpharius hidden somewhere just to give your Moritats with dual plasma pistols Preferred seems pretty worthwhile to me :evilgrin:

Nope, not even if moritats could reroll to hit when chain firing - which they cannot since FW FAQd them.

inq.serge
06-12-2015, 18:59
Fulgrim:

His Sire of the Emperor's Children rule gives all Emperor's Children units with the Legiones Astartes rule an extra +2 to combat res, Also if he gets the Paladin of Glory WT, you add +1 to the Wounds score (Combat res) of every unit 6" around you.
Drawn combats within 6" of his Phoenix Terminator Bodyguard count as a win.

Add in Ancient Rylanor, He can inspire his fellow Emperor's Children with 'Mantle of Glory', giving them +1 to combat resolution and re-rolls to morale.

That is; Once he gets rolling, He won't stop. You'll have to cause 5 wounds more than his guys to not lose a combat. Good luck with that. (note that most HH marines aren't fearless, nor do they know no fear.)

Retrospectus
07-12-2015, 06:57
do you think the emperor will get rules? I'd be perfectly happy if he was super over powered :p (perhaps scenario specific?)

StrikeDeath
07-12-2015, 10:50
do you think the emperor will get rules? I'd be perfectly happy if he was super over powered :p (perhaps scenario specific?)

Nope. That's like saying "hey, wonder if they'll give *insert favourite Chaos/Eldar/Ork God here* rules". Not going to happen. Big E's better as a background guy anyway.

Mandragola
07-12-2015, 12:10
Of course they will make the Emperor, eventually. It's an opportunity for FW to make a massive mini and sell it for lots of money. People will buy it, in many cases just for their collections. Rules will follow, and be pretty spectacular I imagine.

daveNYC
07-12-2015, 15:13
If they don't create rules for the Emperor, then the Horus Heresy will be fundamentally unfinished since there'd be no way to run the climactic battle.

Harwammer
07-12-2015, 15:43
It's a hard decision.

Left Alpharius is intrigue smothered in deceit, whereas Right Alpharius is deceit covering intrigue.

Or maybe when before the Great Crusade really got rolling and an Emperor's Children Apothecary found Horus before Big E got to him. The apothecary created Horus 2.0 and set him free on that planet.