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PBGhost
15-06-2005, 06:26
UPDATES on page 4.

The Mythic CEO has spoken on the upcoming Warhammer Online. The announcements in question took place on the unofficial http://www.warhammeronlineforum.com/

Mark Jacobs, Mythic:


Folks,

First, I want to thank everyone for their kind words regarding the announcement of our first Warhammer game. Everyone at Mythic is quite excited about the possibilities that this partnership with the fine folks at Games Workshop with bring about to both companies. Secondly, as to the game that we have begun work on, it will be a game that is focused on the RvR aspects of Warhammer. We will reveal more details over the coming months but for now, I think the best way to describe the game I have envisioned is the simple phrase "This time it's WAAAGH!" Third, I apologize in advance for what will be infrequent appearances here and other Warhammer-related sites. It's not that I don't love to chat (as the guys at GW can tell you, getting me to shut up is more of a problem), but I have a game design to work on after all.

To answer some brief questions that have popped up here and on other forums:

1) This is not a continuation of the Warhammer Online project. Mythic is working closely with GW to create a new vision for a Warhammer online game.

2) The development time-line for the game is a tad over 2 years but given our experience and existing code-base (Dark Age of Camelot, Imperator and others), we believe we can meet that schedule.

3) We want to pull in as much material from the Warhammer material as we can to make this a great game. I don't care where it comes from, if it's Warhammer (Fantasy Battles, RPG, Warmaster) and it also can be part of a great game, I want to try to fit it in this game. This game will not be DAoC2 with the name of Warhammer attached.

4) RvR does not equal PvP. DAoC is not a PvP game and neither will be this game. We want people to be able to roleplay and we also want them to be able to play the game without worrying about getting ganked from the moment they enter the game by someone more powerful than them.

5) The building and maintaining of community is quite important to Mythic whether it is in the game or out of it. The reason we don't host our own forums is that we either do it well (which means full-time admins, added costs) or we would rather not do it at all. We will consider setting up our own forums for this game but most likely, they will be private to keep the noise level down. Now, if we make them private, we will of course invite all the people who have been participating in forums like these to join us. We will also have ultra-private forums for beta-testers as we do for DAoC and Imperator.

6) As to the question of religion in Warhammer, we expect it will play a role. Religion doesn't in Imperator because Imperator is meant to be a pure sci-fi game. We'd be foolish to do the same here.

7) As a friend of mine at GW says in describing what we want to do with this game, Warhammer will not be happy-clappy land, we'll leave dancing orcs, prancing elves to other guys. :)

8) I have a long-standing relationship with a number of the people at GW, and I hold them, and the IP, in the highest regard. Nothing that we are doing is in any way a sign of disrespect for what has gone before. It's a new day, a new vision but the old world.

Best,

Mark Jacobs
President/CEO
Mythic Entertainment

P.S. It's going to be a lot of fun...

Folks,

A few more quick notes:

1) We are not intending to do a "purist" version of a WH-based game. Why? Well, first, there is no such thing. Warhammer is an incredibly rich environment which not only supports various games but the individual games have changed over the decades. Additionally, even if we were going to focus on one particular game (let's say the FRPG) and even on one edition of the rules, there would still be disagreements over things like rule interpretations. I prefer to look at what we are doing in terms of our game(s) being a "true" interpretation of WH. Now, this is not to say that this is the AMAZING, LAST, FINAL and PENULTIMATE TRUE version of WH but rather simple our attempt to create a great game that feels like it belongs to the WH world. Of course, we will disagree over what is true WH or not but that's why we will have lots of help in order to ensure we deliver on what we promise.

2) Both Mythic and GW are in agreement that we can create an RvR game that is based on the WH IP. So, for a little while longer, have some faith that we have way to allow for various sides to beat each other over the heads with really nasty weapons (and magic, don't forget the magic) in a way that fits in with the WH IP. Remember, this world has been around for a long time and if you search the IP carefully, you will see lots and lots of opportunities for all sorts of mayhem. We will talk about how this will work in detail once we get to the next stage of the project.

3) In terms of Mythic running out of money when we are working on this game; no worries there otherwise GW would have gone running off in the opposite direction when we worked this deal out.

4) In terms of the art look, we will not be attempting to recreate WoW nor WO as neither look fits what we want to do here. One of the great things about WH is that it is an incredibly rich world (from an artistic sense) and we can draw on different looks in order to make our vision come to life. The only thing I can assure you is that some of you will disagree with whatever look we pick, that is the nature of this business. No worries though, as long as you keep the rotten fruit and vegetables coming our way along with the criticism, at least we can keep feeding our team late into the night. :)

5) To answer Linhart's questions (can't have you burning to death, at least not for two years), yes, this will be an advancement-based system. Even if it is RvR-based, we don't want it to be Warhammer: Doom, this will be an RPG. As to dynamic player-influenced content, yeap, that's part of the plan.

One last little bit before I go is that as we develop this game there will be times where we will disagree with each other. You may think that I or my company are a bunch of barely-skilled chimps who haven't the vaguest idea of what we are doing. While I hope that isn't the case, all I ask is that we are polite and respectful to each other. If that simple request is met, we will continue to be able to engage in discussions and information-sharing here. One of our rules is that the team will never attack any poster personally nor rudely (and if they do, it will never happen again) and I hope that the posters here follow the same rule. If so, we'll get on just fine. Again, I am simply asking that players express themselves in a civilized, polite and professional manner and not that they simply parrot the Mythic/GW line.

It's going to be great, glorious fun and I'm looking forward to the next two years with great anticipation.

Mark

Folks,

Regarding GW's input in the whole design process I think it is safe to say that they will quite involved with it and not just protecting their IP. It's safe to say this because the process has already started. :) We'd be foolish not to try to use all the resources we have at had to do this project and that means talking to some of the GW guys and get their thoughts, ideas, etc. on what they would like to see in this game. While Mythic is indeed driving the design, we are doing that in close consultation with the GW guys. The initial vision for the game may have started with me but by the time it is done, GW, other Mythic personnel and maybe even people who post here and in other places may see some things they suggest in the game. FYI, I'm currently combing through hundreds of pages of documentation from guys at GW and elsewhere to see what ideas can become a part of this game.

In terms of making this game like WoW, not likely. I have the utmost respect for Blizzard and a long-time friendship with a number of people there. Their game is their game, just as this will be our game. I have no more desire to make this game like WoW than I do like EQ, WO or any other game out there. This game needs to stand on its own, apart from what has gone before.

Finally, as to skill-based vs. advancement-based, the game will be advancement-based. Now, do we want the game to feel grindy? Nope, not at all but nor do we want to make it so somebody comes in off the street and can, due to superior reflexes, hardware setup, etc. be able to kill players who have been playing the game for a while. For those gamers, Doom, Unreal, etc. are a better choice than this game will be. At its core, this game will have more in common with an RPG rather than an FPS.

Mark

Continued...

PBGhost
15-06-2005, 06:27
Folks,

A couple of quick points here. First, before anyone gets too concerned about what is or is not going to be in this game, allow me to at first get the first draft done of the game design document. Now, feel free to offer ideas, suggestions, etc. (maybe we should create another topic?) but before anyone gets upset, at least let the ink dry on the first 100 pages or so.

Second, I happen to like the career system as well and one of my initial challenges is figuring out how to incorporate it into the game. On one hand, it has some very cool, very GW-type stuff but on the other hand, it must be pared down to fit this kind of game. The other challenge is to incorporate it in a manner so it isn't "grindy" but still rewards people who have had more success in the game. If we want to draw an analogy from Mythic's own games, I want this aspect to feel more like Imperator than DAoC. By this I mean, lots of fun missions and very little (if any) missions (or simply grinding) of "go kill 1000 orcs, 200 chimps and 50 halflings (well, maybe halflings :) ), for all that, get one bubble of experience. Our focus is on the endgame for WH; which is the RvR conflict and the rewards and challenges at the high-end not creating thousands of quests, 100s of NPCs to keep players entertained for days, months, years, etc. One thing for sure, there will not be any "kill 100 wolves to get one special wolf pelt" kind of quest in this game. And the first one at Mythic to create such a quest will end up as Skaven-chow.

Mark

Folks,

Nope, no dry pages yet. Working on it though I'm still suffering from E3-lag so I won't get back to writing full-time till tomorrow. I have been reading a lot though and yes, to answer a question, what I have been reading is everything that has gone before from anybody who apparently has ever written a document regarding WOL. If my head doesn't explode (Osiris, you can have first crack at the tasty bits!) first, I expect to have read all the material by sometime tomorrow.

As to halflings and Giggles idea for a quest, FYI I have already asked whether GW would consider a) halflings as the other, other white meat; b) allowing us to treat halflings as sporting objects for the players.

Also, one last bit. When I chat here I will try not to respond directly to people not because I am rude but rather when I do that, sometimes other people get annoyed that I am "ignorning" them and their idea(s). So please don't take offense if I don't cite or respond to people directly. In the case of Giggle's quest idea, it was just too funny, appropriate and fits with my sense of humor, not to cite him.

Okay, I was wrong, one more little bit. I tend, at times, to try to be funny, at times sarcastic (usually in regards to myself, Mythic) in these posts. Credit my British (East End, London) dad and my American mom (Bronx, NY) for the really strange combination of humor that I will display as we get to know each other better.


Mark

Folks,

Just so we have our definitions straight:

1)Grindy - Actions (quests, NPC hunting) which must be repeated ad nauseum in order to progress through levels. These actions, which on an individual level might be fun, when put back to back are anything but fun. By my defintion, RvR is not grinding (since it *can* be different all the time) but RvR can certainly be dull. The trick is to make RvR as fun as possible and not grindy.

2) Skill-based game - A game which relies on the individual ability of the player alone and not on statistics, abilities, etc. on the player's avatar to determine success. Doom, Unreal, etc. would be examples of skill-based games. These games are also referred to as "twitch" games.

3) Level-based game - A game which relies on the statistics, abilities, etc. of a player's avatar to determine his success. Advancement can be tied to avatar skills directly (Skill System = Lookee, I have a 55% chance now to hit with my axe) or by level (Level System = I'm level 10, I hit 55% with all my weapons). Almost all CRPGs (there may be exemptions though none come to mind) are level-based games as is the Warhammer Fantasy.

As of now, I see this game being a level-based game that utilizes a robust skill system as part of an over-arching career system. I also want Mythic to create a game that you can play as an individual or as part of a group. Obviously, the WHFB system is geared to armies and the WHF ruleset is geared to small groups. What I can tell you now is that the RvR scheme that we are looking at would involve things that you can do a) solo; b) with a small group; c) with a large group and in big-hunking battles. The game will also include lots of things you can do without having to go into battle against other people.

Also, please, please I ask you all down on bended knee not to read too much into things you might think I am saying, hinting at, etc. in my posts. That leads to confusion, confusion leads to stress, stress leads anger and anger, well, that leads to counseling, lawsuits and hurt itty-bitty feelings and you know, we can't have any of that here! :)

Mark

Folks,

1) Finishing the first draft of the character section of the document and, as of now, there is a career system in this game. I think we can make it work so we are going to give it a shot. When I cut down on the list some more, I'll let you guys know what we are thinking of.

2) All US/European servers will be run by Mythic. We announced the opening of a European office for Mythic a couple of weeks ago and we have every intention of hosting/running those servers.

3) The focus of this game will be on RvR and we want players to gain the vast majority of their skills, experience, fame, etc. through RvRing. Now, keep in mind that RvR doesn't always mean PvP.

4) We plan on following the same approach as we did with DAoC in regards to free content and retail content. Nobody has given out more subscription based content than Mythic has with DAoC (and we are not done yet) and we hope to do the same here. As the ad goes, membership has its rewards. :)

5) Skills, there will be lots and lots of skills and a lot more complex combat system that WFRP.

6) In terms of this game being "Warhammer like" all I need to say right now is that, for example, in the character section, all the stats we are using are directly from the WFRP as are most of the racial bonuses, benefits, etc. This game will look and feel like a WH game right from the beginning, period. To do otherwise would run counter to my reason for getting the license to do this game (and other games), because the IP has value in terms of its depth of content and loyal fanbase. No matter what we do, I'm sure we will set off some fireworks, but in the end, I know that GW (and most of its fanbase) will agree that this game is indeed worthy of being considered a Warhammer game.

Mark

So there you have it, straight from Mythic CEO Mark Jacobs.

amagi
15-06-2005, 09:59
Now, this is not to say that this is the AMAZING, LAST, FINAL and PENULTIMATE TRUE version of WH but rather simple our attempt to create a great game that feels like it belongs to the WH world.
pe∑nul∑ti∑mate
1. Next to last.
2. Linguistics Of or relating to the penult of a word: penultimate stress.

How can something be the LAST and also the NEXT TO LAST??
Ultimate is last, then penultimate, then antepenultimate.
Wrong word Mr. Jacobs... :)

Anyway, the game sounds promising!

Kittah
15-06-2005, 10:47
pe∑nul∑ti∑mate
1. Next to last.
2. Linguistics Of or relating to the penult of a word: penultimate stress.

How can something be the LAST and also the NEXT TO LAST??
Ultimate is last, then penultimate, then antepenultimate.
Wrong word Mr. Jacobs... :)

Anyway, the game sounds promising!

Pedantic git :p

Agreed though, it sounds very promising indeed! From reading through that I'm greatly anticipating this - especially the involvement of our criticism and opinions in the development. It sounds like a project where the players-to-be really will be involved in shaping it through their ideas and comments - something many companies fail to see the point of.

rkunisch
15-06-2005, 10:50
Agreed though, it sounds very promising indeed! From reading through that I'm greatly anticipating this - especially the involvement of our criticism and opinions in the development. It sounds like a project where the players-to-be really will be involved in shaping it through their ideas and comments - something many companies fail to see the point of.

Although it has to be seen, if the ideas will have any chance to be considered. You can post as many ideas as you like on the GW forums - only to be sure that they most certainly will be ignored. :rolleyes:

Have fun,

Rolf.

Flashheart
15-06-2005, 11:06
That was interesting reading PBGhost ... thanks for posting it.

PBGhost
15-06-2005, 11:42
No problem posting about posting it, was checking on some old friends and realized I had the scoop. :p

Bruen
15-06-2005, 12:06
3) The focus of this game will be on RvR and we want players to gain the vast majority of their skills, experience, fame, etc. through RvRing. Now, keep in mind that RvR doesn't always mean PvP.

Yep, as long as you stay in your little newbie sandbox and don't ever want to see most of the game or fight most of the monsters you don't have to PvP at all.

geoffkemp
15-06-2005, 12:09
Nice One :)

Sgt John Keel
15-06-2005, 14:00
I really don't know what to think here, as I never really get a concept of what they want to do with the game system.

However, the things that concern me most is the magic system and the experience system. I really hope the magic system evolve from the ideas they had in WHOL, and not some crap mana-meter as that's not really how the magic works in the Warhammer World. As for the experience system, I'd rather have seen a skill-experience system rather than a level-experience, as it's quite simpy absurd to get better att archery when all you do all the time is casting spells.

Further concerns would be the graphics. They mention they don't want to do it the WoW way, but neither the WHOL way. I hope they take it even higher from the WHOL graphics rather than settle for a middle ground. IE, more realism.

Concerning the RvR system, the game world would need to be truly enormous if they want to give an accurate view of the wars going on. I sincerely hope they doesn't only include the Old World in the game though.

Edit: Oh, I forgot. I hope that they doesn't make the game focus on the fighting. It'd be quite nice to roleplay as a merchant or something. After all, it's a roleplaying game, not a hack-n-slash game?

/Adrian

PBGhost
15-06-2005, 21:19
Yep, as long as you stay in your little newbie sandbox and don't ever want to see most of the game or fight most of the monsters you don't have to PvP at all.

Have you tried World of Warcraft? Its RvR but its entirely possible to do no PvP at all while still enjoying end game raid bosses etc.

Crube
15-06-2005, 21:27
Have to say that I'm not realy that appesed by Mythics ramblings. I firmly believe that they'll look at any suggestions, go mm, yes, hmm, and then proceed to do exactly what the hell they and GW want. I really think we'll end up with a DAoC with a few WH bells on.


I hope I'm wrong

alterion
15-06-2005, 21:47
ouch.. i am not looking forward to this new version as much as i was to the old warhammer online... to me rvr means one thing LAG.. especially if implemented as badly as in daoc

Bruen
15-06-2005, 21:57
Have you tried World of Warcraft? Its RvR but its entirely possible to do no PvP at all while still enjoying end game raid bosses etc.

No, but I have played DAOC which has a form of RvR.

My personal preference is that if I can't explore the whole world and do everything without PvP then I won't play. EQ blue servers are my ideal solution.

Arnizipal
15-06-2005, 23:08
However, the things that concern me most is the magic system and the experience system. I really hope the magic system evolve from the ideas they had in WHOL, and not some crap mana-meter as that's not really how the magic works in the Warhammer World. As for the experience system, I'd rather have seen a skill-experience system rather than a level-experience, as it's quite simpy absurd to get better att archery when all you do all the time is casting spells.

They'll keep the carreer system apparently. It's just that they have a different definition of 'skill-based' and 'level-based'.



2) Skill-based game - A game which relies on the individual ability of the player alone and not on statistics, abilities, etc. on the player's avatar to determine success. Doom, Unreal, etc. would be examples of skill-based games. These games are also referred to as "twitch" games.

3) Level-based game - A game which relies on the statistics, abilities, etc. of a player's avatar to determine his success. Advancement can be tied to avatar skills directly (Skill System = Lookee, I have a 55% chance now to hit with my axe) or by level (Level System = I'm level 10, I hit 55% with all my weapons). Almost all CRPGs (there may be exemptions though none come to mind) are level-based games as is the Warhammer Fantasy.

Cypher
16-06-2005, 09:14
Yeah, when he says "skill based" here, he means twitch gaming, where success is derived from how quickly you can aim and pull the trigger. Whereas level-based gaming is anything stat-driven. Pretty much any MMO around is "level based" in this sense.

Reading all that, I actually dont have a clue what he's saying. There's a lot of "we want a really good game", which I like, but all this stuff about rvr and non-grinding gameplay doesnt really tell me a lot. Guess we ought to give it time.

geoffkemp
16-06-2005, 11:02
Does anyone know wether anything has been ported accorss from the original ????

Anseur
16-06-2005, 17:25
Does anyone know wether anything has been ported accorss from the original ????

See below:


1) This is not a continuation of the Warhammer Online project. Mythic is working closely with GW to create a new vision for a Warhammer online game.

geoffkemp
16-06-2005, 17:43
OK, I guess that sort of answers my question. Just wondering though if any of the *concepts* will be in this new vision

Bubble Ghost
16-06-2005, 17:47
Have to say that I'm not realy that appesed by Mythics ramblings. I firmly believe that they'll look at any suggestions, go mm, yes, hmm, and then proceed to do exactly what the hell they and GW want.

Exactly the impression I got.

By making it RvR, it seems like they've just directly translated the ethos of Warhammer Fantasy Battle onto an individual scale, rather than actually making it a game set in the Warhammer world proper. In other words: it sounds like it's not going to be a Warhammer game, just an individual version of the battle game which is just one part of the Warhammer IP. While this could be a half decent game it's also not very true to the setting and a complete waste of a potential.

Like I said, that's just the general impression I got at this very early stage - I could be extremely, hilariously wrong, and I'd love it if I was. But from the tone of all that, it looked like they were already making excuses. That's never a good sign.

Cypher
17-06-2005, 00:03
The irony of course is that Warhammer Online began its life as an army-scale online game, before shifting into an MMO. It has, in a manner, come (almost) full circle.

geoffkemp
17-06-2005, 02:45
3) The focus of this game will be on RvR and we want players to gain the vast majority of their skills, experience, fame, etc. through RvRing. Now, keep in mind that RvR doesn't always mean PvP.

That quote caught my imagination a bit, quite a leading statement. I guess what they are getting at is things like "trade-skill" quests to arm your armies, espionage missions etc. ???

PBGhost
17-06-2005, 03:50
I don't think it will be an army based game guys...looks like its going to be a RPG.

Cypher
17-06-2005, 05:45
I didnt mean it was going to be army based (although it kinda reads that way) just commenting how we've now got a game that feels closer to the original premise.

As for the RvR != PvP, I can only assume they mean it in the sense that if you represent side A, then the mobs will be creatures from side B.

PBGhost
17-06-2005, 06:42
Yes, but just to clarify if we aren't on the same page.

Side A players fight Side B monsters and dungeons.
Side B players fight Side A monsters and dungeons.
Side A and Side B players can fight if they choose.
Side A and Side B players can both fight Side X, which is just monsters and dungeons.

Skink Master
21-06-2005, 12:35
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

No, seriously. You're being very pessimistic about the whole thing. Well, most of you are anyway. My advice is to go the forums themselves and have a look at the conversations and stickies in the general forum. It should answer alot of your questions and create many many more.

http://www.warhammeronlineforum.com/

In my honest opinion, if Mythic doesn't take any of our suggestions then they're gonna have an entire community in an uproar about the entire thing. They're not gonna risk having the entire warhammer community buy the game, find out it's carp and then refuse to pay the subscription price for such a carp game. So they're gonna make it good. Or else!

Ozorik
21-06-2005, 15:15
I just hope it isnt DAoC in a different setting. That game had serious balance and grinding issues which, to my knowledge, were never resolved.

To be honest Im not entirely happy with the news that mythic has replaced climax.

Also the above link doesnt work.

grey_painter
22-06-2005, 01:31
What is RvR?

Since I have no experience in MMORPGs I don't feel I can comment much. Although I am glad to hear they wont be copying WoW art style, any Warhammer game needs to be really gritty in my eyes.

Skink Master
22-06-2005, 11:49
Link fixed.

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what happens. No use speculating on what it could be when we have nothing to work with.

Ozorik
22-06-2005, 14:11
RvR is realm Vs realm or basically a big laggy fight which always goes to the cookie cutter clone group with a pack of buff bots lurking outside the portal keep, or at least it did in DAoC...

Or extended player Vs player combat if done right.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 14:20
I don't like the fact that these guys are making excuses for their product before they've even started making it. It shows a lack of confidence and perhaps they feel the need to try and please everyone, or look like they care what we think. I have many, many opinions on what a game should be, but i'm not a proffesional games developer and so I keep my mouth shut. If these guys try and make everyone happy the game'll end up a piece of crap - I do know that much.

geoffkemp
23-06-2005, 03:01
That is a concern, TTC, though I`m in the wait an see bocx ATM.

You don`t supose on the outside chance, by "RvR2, they actaully mean faction Vs. Faction maybe ??? (eg Witch Hunters Vs Witches etc.)

Now that certaily would be interesting. Maybe only letting you attack players the you had poor faction with (Like EQs "Red con") like witch hunters and Necromancers FEX

Ozorik
23-06-2005, 11:13
The only main problem I had with the original WHO was with the PvP system. I dont think that it would work well in practise. I liked it in theory but it would almost certainly have lead to pvp being an annoyance rather than an intregal part of the game.

Im curious as to how mythic intends to run PvP in WHO mkII. If they intend to run it like DAoC they will need seperate realms, but who will these be? I would prefer to keep the central Empire setting and forget about opposing realms. Some thing like WoWs PvP system (factions who co exist in mid-high levels territories but can still initiate combat with each other) could work well if well managed.

geoffkemp
28-06-2005, 08:48
I`m (still) hoping for a factional based PVP, looking at aspects of the WH background that allow this.

Though I`ll guess we`ll have to wait and see.

Odin
04-07-2005, 13:45
Does anyone around here speak english? :wtf:

I love the idea of an online Warhammer game, but I really don't understand what the hell all this RvR, PvP business is about.

Bubble Ghost
04-07-2005, 13:48
I had to look up RvR too. It's Realm vs Realm, which means all the characters in the game belong to a preset faction.

PvP is player vs player, and refers to the system and context in which human players' characters are allowed to attack each other.

Ozorik
04-07-2005, 18:11
RvR is actually realm Vs realm combat rather than just having preset factions. Very similar to PvP but allegedly more structured and fairer, allegedly.

You also get PvE which is player vs environment so in other words bashing rats etc.

devolutionary
28-08-2005, 06:42
As long as Orc players can fight Orc players, I'm happy :D

I alsp hope that they dont make these factions Chaos vs Order, because that would truly suck, locking all those races in to one of two groups >.<

Unseeing Eye
28-08-2005, 06:58
UPDATES:

Again from Mark Jacobs.


Folks,

As promised, hereís my August update on the state of Mythicís Warhammer MMORPG.

1) We have received approval from GW on the initial game design for the game. What this means for Mythic is two-fold. First, we have created an initial design that the GW guys actually like and are excited at the thought of seeing online. Comments such as ďThe only thing I donít like about it is that we have to wait two years to play it!Ē have made the Mythic team smile from ear-to-ear. Secondly, It means that work can begin at full-speed on certain parts of the approved material. Thus, I can say without any doubt that we are right on schedule.

2) The game will take place ďout-of-timeĒ with all the current GW material. With GWís help, Mythic will sketch out a new time period for the gameís setting. This will allow the teams more freedom in creating content that is tailor-made for this game without worrying about contradicting existing GW material.

3) The game will be heavily-Warhammer. Not heavily-influenced by WH, not flavored with juicy bits of WH, but heavily-Warhammer. We are drawing on all the WH fantasy material no matter whether it comes from the Warhammer Fantasy Battles or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, etc. We will be pulling in as much material as we can in order not only to create a great game but to create a great WH game. An example of this would be our implementation of the Career System from the WFRP or using a particularly iconic High Elf unit within the game as something the player can aspire to become.

4) The game will be RvR-centric, focused on the ongoing battles between three separate groups (more information on these groups down the road).

5) The playable races that will be represented in the game are Humans (Empire), High Elves, Dwarves, Dark Elves, Chaos (more to come on this, sorry for being vague), Orcs and Goblins. While we want to do almost all the other races (except Halflings, who are a race best served over a net at about 100MPH), we donít want to overreach right from the beginning. We plan on, of course, expansion packs that will bring the other races into the mix down the road. Not having Skaven, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, etc. in right from the beginning was not an easy decision but the important thing is to bring in enough races to make it fun but to do so in a way that allows us to more easily balance the game and create specific content for the races that is both fun and true to WH. The temptation to add more races is quite strong but our goal with this game is not to try to impress the player with how much stuff we can throw at you but rather we want to impress you with what we do throw at you (we only choose the best rotten and decaying food substances to toss at you!). In other words, quality not quantity.

6) GW has been very kind and extremely helpful in sharing their knowledge, thoughts, ideas and most importantly, access to Bugmanís Bar, as the project continues to evolve. We have been fortunate enough to work with folks such as Rick Priestley, Alan Merrett, Gav Thorpe, John Blanche and others (the list goes on and on) right from the beginning. The GW people are also continuing to be part of the development process as they continue to share their input with us. The best part of this is that it is a collaborative effort with both sides focused on one goal, to create the best RvR-centric MMORPG to date. We have been fortunate to work with great licenses and licensors in the past but GW has taken the crown (and the throne, the jewels and a serving wench or two as well, damn them!). The approval process has been run professionally and in a timely manner and that, in and of itself, would give GW the crown. However, when you throw in the fact that when this game is released it will not only be GW approved but it will contain lots of new bits that GW has created for use in this game, it is clear that working with these guys has been nothing less than glorious.

7) Magic will play a large role in the game. We are taking all the material contained in the IP and expanding on it while maintaining the core WH magic system. I know that some people here are hoping that magic would be less of a role in this MMORPG than other MMORPGs but as GW would tell you, magic is everywhere in the world of Warhammer. Make no mistake about it, magic will play a great role in the game but it will be WH magic, not D&D magic.

8) The RvR and combat systems in this game will not be DAoC2. While I donít want to go into details now (for competitive reasons), what we are creating for this game is tailored to this game, to the IP and to make this a next-generation game.

9) Our artists have, so far, created and nailed (from a WH perspective) a great look for this game. While we have quite a ways to go our guys have, I think, even surprised GW a little bit in how quickly we have grasped the WH IP. With all the input we got from our last trip to GW, I expect that both WH fans and gamers new to the IP will love the look of the game. While we are not ready to post anything yet, I can tell you that the look is not a clone of World of Warcraft but neither is it a clone of Dark Age of Camelot. The look is unique to this game and very, very WH (okay, Iíll tell you this much, our concept art for the Dwarf showed him with a beer mug in one hand ).

10) With the postponement of Imperator and the fact that DAoCís next expansion in coming out soon, we will be able to almost fully staff the WH team ahead of schedule. What this means is that we will be able to make a big splash at E3 2006.

So, thatís it for now. Iíll be back on these boards in September with more news and updates.

Folks,

Realm imbalance in this game is a primary concern of ours. We have some rather unique and interesting ways of dealing with it which, I'm sorry to say, I won't talk about it now. However, please keep in mind that it is our #1 concern in both the short and the long term. It doesn't do us any good to design a great game that two months out is so imbalanced that our playerbase drops to nothing. We have learned a lot from DAoC (as well as other games) and we expect to use that knowledge to all of our advantages.

Couple of other quick notes:

1) We are not targetting this game at WoW's audience or WoW's numbers. To do so would require us to create a PvE-centric game and not an RvR-centric game. While we would love to get WoW's numbers (who wouldn't right?) that is not our focus for this game.

2) DAoC was never a niche product, even in light of WoW's numbers. At its peak, it was the #2 US online game trailing only EQ. Even today it's worldwide numbers are quite good. Keep in mind that DAoC is a monthly subscription game (and we only report subs who are currently paid up as monthly subscriptions) as opposed to how many of the Asian games (and some US games) charge overseas. This is not to minimize the extraordinary success of games like Lineage and now WoW but to some extent it is, at times, comparing apples and oranges.

3) Also keep in mind the difference between saying a server supports 30K people and 30K simultaneous people. Unless I'm mistaken, a WoW world/server/shard does not support 30K simultaneous people and they are much more akin to how EQ, DAoC, AC, etc. handle population load. When they say a server is at low, medium and high pop they are referring to the total population of the server which usually translates to how crowded it will be at peak times. Again, I could be wrong about this but I don't think I am.

4) For this game we certainly don't want a single world which can support even 10K simultaneous players unless we were sure that would make for a better game. Now, experience tells me that it wouldn't, that if you have too many people in your realm, then everything is crowded and dealing in non-instanced areas is more of a pain. The focus for this game is to create the best RvR game out there if it that means we need to up our simultaneous populations, it is easily done. If we go smaller, than is easily done as well. The way DAoC was designed was that we could have larger worlds by adding more machines to each world's configuration. We know that works so if we believe that it is in our best interest to have larger worlds, we have larger worlds.

Mark

Bubble Ghost
28-08-2005, 16:17
I'm not normally this kind of fanboyish doom-monger - in fact I normally hate that sort of thing - but reading between the lines there doesn't leave me much choice at this stage but to conclude that it looks like they're going to do to Warhammer what Hollywood does to history. It's hard to tell whether it's my instinctive aversion to an Warhammer RPG with playable Orcs skewing my judgement here, and it might just be poor choice of phrasing by the guy writing the updates. But all those self-congratulatory assurances that GW want their babies and it's going to be the most awesomest thing evar look to me like pre-emptive excuses.

I'll be more than happy to be proved a pessimistic whiner though.

Positives: not being contemporary is useful, if only because any complete failure of the game won't then contaminate the Warahmmer we know; it also means that they can make RvR setting believable, even if that's still a bit too 'macro' for the feel of the Warhammer world in general. The assertion that magic is going to be distinctly Warhammer is slightly reassuring (although his enthusiasm for how important it's going to be isn't).

Unseeing Eye
29-08-2005, 07:00
My main fear is thus. The races are O&G, Chaos, Dark Elves, High Elves, Humans, Dwarves. Which leads me to believe we'll be slotted into a 'Good' realm and an 'Evil' realm; one for Dwarves, Humans and High Elves, another for Chaos, Dark Elves and O&G.

Arnizipal
29-08-2005, 10:37
My main fear is thus. The races are O&G, Chaos, Dark Elves, High Elves, Humans, Dwarves. Which leads me to believe we'll be slotted into a 'Good' realm and an 'Evil' realm; one for Dwarves, Humans and High Elves, another for Chaos, Dark Elves and O&G.
I though that was the whole idea with 'Realm vs Realm' MMORPGs...

Unseeing Eye
29-08-2005, 11:44
Yes but...doesn't that seem a bit cliched to you? It takes away all the uniqueness (word?) of Warhammer and just paints everything as good or evil.

Bubble Ghost
29-08-2005, 11:48
My main fear is thus. The races are O&G, Chaos, Dark Elves, High Elves, Humans, Dwarves. Which leads me to believe we'll be slotted into a 'Good' realm and an 'Evil' realm; one for Dwarves, Humans and High Elves, another for Chaos, Dark Elves and O&G.

Exactly.

I feel in my bones that this game is going to be a K3w1!!!!11111 flashing lights and wiz-bangs versions of Warhammer with no attention to the world's background at all. What other conclusion can you reach when they're talking about adding playable undead at a later date? Playable undead in Warhammer?!? Sweet Jesus Son of God no. The GW people who are approving this must be the same ones who thought Dark Shadows was a great idea and want White Dwarf to be designed for 13 year olds.

Oh well, at least Namco's RTS looks promising.
[/miserable bastard]

Ozorik
29-08-2005, 12:36
Playable undead in Warhammer?!?

Whats wrong with that?

The main problem with translating Warhammer in to a MMO is that there are simply far to many factions whihc must be adequately represented in order for warhammer to be warhammer.

A line needs to be drawn as to which races can be included and which must be excluded. 3 main Factions is about the feasable limit IMO. Maybe the Empire(inc dwarves and maybe bretonnians or high elves), Chaos (Mortals, beasts and deamons) and Orcs comprised all the usual O&G races.

The original WHO had the right idea but it appears that the new incarnation doesnt and will undoubtably suffer because of this.

Bubble Ghost
29-08-2005, 13:44
Whats wrong with that?
Because sentient undead are far too rare to be playable. You'd either have to have everyone as skeletons, which would be stupid for obvious reasons, or everyone as vampires or wights, which would be stupid because the place would be crawling with adventuring wights. In terms of the Warhammer world's imagery that is completely, utterly ridiculous. It's just not Warhammer.

Ozorik
29-08-2005, 19:22
Actually I was thinking more in terms of Necromancers with controllable minions. Yes it would be rediculous to play as a skelly in the warhammer context but completely writing off undead when they play such a large role in the mythology of the old world is a bit to drastic IMO. I definately dont want to see vampires running around, probably all called variations of Dracu11a or something equally dreadful.

grey_painter
29-08-2005, 21:00
You don't have to write the undead off completely just because they aren't a playable race though surely? Just have them slotted in as NPCs or possibly special characters that pop up occassionally as server wide events. Or have I misunderstood how this game would play?

Ozorik
29-08-2005, 21:16
I would envision Vampires to be NPC characters or characters played by 'dungeon masters' or what ever they are called in MMOs but necromancers appear to be fairly common throught the old world, at least according to the fluff.

If you can have mages then I dont see why you cant have necros, possibly necromancers could be a mage subclass.

To be honest I can see the factions being lumped together in a similar way to the horde in WoW, basically everyone who isnt in the alliance (who seem natural allies) are on the other side so you get the baffling inclusion of the forsaken undead to the fairly sensible (according to the WoW fluff) orc/troll and tauren horde.

Bubble Ghost
30-08-2005, 00:50
Actually I was thinking more in terms of Necromancers with controllable minions.

That's not undead then, so that's alright.;) The idea that that should be a seperate race, as opposed to human, is a bit silly though.

~

Just not being playable wouldn't mean you were "writing them off." I wasn't suggesting for a minute they shouldn't feature at all. I was just referring to the idea in the Mythic bloke's update that says they'd like to add playable characters from the Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings 'races' (Khemri playable characters! Honestly... welcome to Warhammer as presented by Vince McMahon).

Strakar
30-08-2005, 04:45
It doesn't sound like they're going into uncharted territory with anything fresh for the game system. Whoever said it would likely be DAoC with some WH bells and whistles might be spot on.

How appealing is the Warhammer universe to gamers outside of Games Workshop's cult following? It might be a tough sell in the competitive online RPG market, but apparently everyone involved thinks it has potential.

geoffkemp
31-08-2005, 13:03
Maybe, they will have a carreer tree like that of EQ2 or SWG ?? (Well hopefully not SWGs as I don`t feel that is as intuitve as that of EQ2 or EQlive)

You probably wouldn`t be able to start as a Necomance, though you could work up to it. Th Races featured as playable races, will be the ones the mass market can I dentifiy with, ie humans, Dwarves, Elves, Halfings etc. You need to start thinking Mass market on an undertaking like this.

nurgle_boy
31-08-2005, 13:28
well i think orcs would be a good choice, and it would give a chance to play on both ends of the spectrum. good or evil.

and as for the mass market, being able to play a big green monster doesnt sound too bad.

and if it works out as a sort of good v evil mmorpg, it would be quite good imho.

imagine a clan of orc player WAAAAAAGH!-ing as a horde... seems good to me...

Bubble Ghost
31-08-2005, 13:41
and if it works out as a sort of good v evil mmorpg, it would be quite good

Maybe, but it wouldn't be a Warhammer game. Imposing a Good Versus Evil theme is the single quickest way to destroy everything that makes Warhammer a worthwhile setting. You'd be left with Generic Fantasy Game 483, with perhaps only a couple of minor gameplay hooks to distinguish it from everything else. So Warhammer fans get their setting mangled by the Hollywood-O-Matic lowest common denominator machine, and the game company ignores what could be a useful way to distinguish their game from others. Lose-lose situation.

Yodhrin
31-08-2005, 15:45
Maybe, but it wouldn't be a Warhammer game. Imposing a Good Versus Evil theme is the single quickest way to destroy everything that makes Warhammer a worthwhile setting. You'd be left with Generic Fantasy Game 483, with perhaps only a couple of minor gameplay hooks to distinguish it from everything else. So Warhammer fans get their setting mangled by the Hollywood-O-Matic lowest common denominator machine, and the game company ignores what could be a useful way to distinguish their game from others. Lose-lose situation.

That happened the minute it was announced as an RvR-focused game. Why? Because last I checked, the Warhammer World does not include leet-speak.

I think they are going about this all wrong. They are creating what is, fundamentally, an RPG, but they are drawing mostly from Warhammer Fantasy Battle. Yes, Mr Jacobs has said Mythic will be drawing from WHFRP as well, but it wont be a dark, gritty game in the Warhammer world, it will be a kitbashed Warhammer-esque setting designed to facilitate PvP'ers bashing each others heads in.

I think PvP is a useful game mechanic, but that's all it is. If you focus a game around it, it becomes a glorified FPS. An example is EVE-Online, which is one of the most interesting MMOs I have ever seen. It's stunningly complex, with a deeply immersive and expansive background, which evolves constantly. It has a fully functioning economy, from individual free traders right up to mega-corporations. But, in the end, all that goes to waste. It focused on PvP, and from that all those other mechanics become nothing more than excuses to go in, guns'a'blazin. Roleplay guilds and alliances were ridiculed, and the forums consist mainly of thiny veiled, or open, flamefests between the alliances. It's red vs blue.

Mythic will have to pull of something really special in order for the new WO to become anything other than a clone of DAoC with even more focus on hitting people on the "other team, just cos they are on the other team".

Bubble Ghost
01-09-2005, 10:40
That about sums up why I currently think the game is going to be rubbish. Multiple factions might help a bit, I suppose, but not that much, and that's if they even do it. I just pray that at the very least they force you to use a random or selectable name generator for your character, like the dead version of Warhammer Online was going to; I don't think I could take High Elves called "ub3R_kiLL4R_92" running around.

geoffkemp
04-09-2005, 08:50
I`m guessing htey will put in some sort of check, coupled with that the GMs etc. who will be about. I guess that even though there might be the odd one that slips through.

AS for Leet Speak (RvR) hardly, it is just a mechcanism, used in MMo`s. How they implement this is how the make or break the game.

Flame Boy
04-09-2005, 16:43
I'm not worried about it becoming a clone of Dark Age of Camelot, simply because a cursory reading through that text suggests they are trying to distace it from DAoC as far as possible. I'm more concerned they will spoil it by trying to avoid making it too similar and mess up because they aren't paying enough attention to finding out what works rather tha how to distinguish it from games in their existing stable.

I am upset the original WO got shelved, however, the animation of the creatures was astounding.

Gavmo
05-09-2005, 11:29
Sounds like its going to be cool.

Something i'd like, a decent website.
Seroiusly, how many people have actually been to the official websites of games to get game info? Every MMORPG i've played has had a crap official website.

Mythic! You guys have a chance to be a world leader in this regard! You can have an official site that actually has some usefull information on it instead of just crap!!! :eek:

corkill
16-09-2005, 11:21
This should be pretty mad, was devoed when it got cancelled the first time.

geoffkemp
17-09-2005, 08:21
The only thing is they are starting from scratch again