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Buddy Bear
13-12-2015, 03:12
LORDS
360 Balthasar Gelt

HEROES
65 Master Engineer
65 Master Engineer

CORE
170 Archers (20): Marksman, Musician, Standard Bearer
200 Crossbowmen (20): Marksman, Standard Bearer
264 Handgunners (26): Marksman, Musician, Standard Bearer

SPECIAL
120 Great Cannon
120 Great Cannon
100 Mortar
220 Outriders (10): Sharpshooter
190 Pistoliers (10): Outrider

RARE
120 Helblaster Volley Gun
250 Steam Tank
250 Steam Tank

Handgunners are placed in the center, flanked by each of the Steam Tanks, with Archers on the left flank and Crossbowmen on the right flank. The three missile units pour fire into the enemy while the Steam Tanks are evenly placed to deal with potential threats which make it to my missile line. They're supported at range by the two Great Cannons, Helblaster Volley Gun, and Mortar, which are buffed by the two Master Engineers. The Outriders and Pistoliers harass the enemy flanks, slowing down marches and performing rear charges as needed. And Balthasar Gelt just flies around lending magical assistance wherever it's needed. The goal is to pulverize enemy units with firepower before they even get a chance to get into melee. And if something does make it through, the Steam Tanks will deal with it, with possible rear charge assistance from the Pistoliers or Outriders.

So thoughts?

Smooth Boy
13-12-2015, 04:03
Well conventional wisdom tells me that handgunners aren't worth the plastic they're made from... but then again you do have two steam tanks and two cannons... so I guess it fits a theme and they'll do the business.

Buddy Bear
13-12-2015, 04:13
Yeah, it's a matter of trying to make a gunline out of my collection and, aside from a Captain of the Empire or two with a gun, that's all the firepower I have.

MagicAngle
13-12-2015, 07:57
I'd split the pistoliers and outriders into units of 5 for increased flexibility and less tempting targets for shooting and magic.

Should be interesting to see how the gunline holds up. Any enemy in particular that you're up against? I think you may have issues with horde armies that could tarpit your steam tanks while they overrun all the other units.

Buddy Bear
13-12-2015, 08:15
Good idea on the Pistoliers and Outriders. And I'm planning on going up against Lizardmen. I'm expecting to see Saurus and Temple Guard, swarms of Skink skirmishers, a lot of magic, and a handful of big monsters.

Spiney Norman
14-12-2015, 01:15
Thoughts? It's a gunline, pretty much dedicated to sucking as much fun as possible out of the game and being as boring as possible to face. You will either annihilate your opponent from range or fail to do so and get ripped to pieces, so it's a win big/lose big kind of army. The storm banner is basically a perfect foil to this army which might be a concern if you are likely to face skaven.

In terms of pure competitiveness the only way to make this army even more horrible to play against would be to replace the unit of hand gunners with an equivalent size unit of crossbowmen so they can start shooting from T1 and probably sub out the pistoliers for additional outriders for the same reason.

The only other thing really out of place is the mortar which is terribad in 8th edition (assuming this is for 8th and not 9th age)

Ayin
16-12-2015, 23:50
Thoughts? It's a gunline, pretty much dedicated to sucking as much fun as possible out of the game and being as boring as possible to face. You will either annihilate your opponent from range or fail to do so and get ripped to pieces, so it's a win big/lose big kind of army.

Basically the opposite of my Khorne army.

Unlike actually difficult gunlines, the Empire has the advantage (or disadvantage, if you're the one playing them) of folding in melee to a stiff breeze, unlike Dwarves or Dark Elves who can stomp "classic" warmachine hunters (and the fact you rarely see true "Gun Lines" with either of them shows how weak massed infantry based range damage is). With such an army a player is likely to manage to injure opponents at range but even the dregs that make it will fold your lines.



The storm banner is basically a perfect foil to this army which might be a concern if you are likely to face skaven.

@#$%ing Storm Banner. That thing can cripple armies that aren't even close to Gunlines. MY Empire army falls apart against that thing (though my Khorne force laughs at it mightily).

There are of course other builds, models and items that will make winning a game with this army nearly impossible (likely more than I can even list, so i'll skip it). So, setting aside a few of the most ludicrous things...


In terms of pure competitiveness the only way to make this army even more horrible to play against would be to replace the unit of hand gunners with an equivalent size unit of crossbowmen so they can start shooting from T1 and probably sub out the pistoliers for additional outriders for the same reason.

"In terms of pure comeptitiveness"? That's either horrendously worded or an absolutely ludicrous proposition. THIS Empire army is SOOOO far away from competitive that it's on the line between Bad/Terrible. Taking all X-Bows would go a TINY ways to making the army closer to the Bad end of the spectrum. The ABSOLUTE last thing Buddy needs to be concerned about is that this army is going to win TOO MUCH. This is the kind of army one makes for the heck of it and hopes to win a game or two in their life.

"In terms of pure competitiveness" replacing the Handguns with X-Bows, the X-Bows with Halberds/Knights, the Pistoliers with nearly anything else and Gelt with an Arch Lector and Lvl 4 of a different Lore would help.



Good idea on the Pistoliers and Outriders. And I'm planning on going up against Lizardmen. I'm expecting to see Saurus and Temple Guard, swarms of Skink skirmishers, a lot of magic, and a handful of big monsters.

The Swarms of Skinks and toughness buffed Lizards (assuming Lore of Life) are going to be a real challenge. The Steam Tanks give you some solid pits (making up for the rest of the army being made of pudding) to stick enemies up with.


I ran a similar army with my Dogs of War, and I've tried similar things with my Empire, but Empire suffer MIGHTILY on the most important fronts, those being that their ranged Infantry are overcosted, their skirmishers are weak, and their Fast Cav (redirecting is absolutely CRITICAL in an army like this) are both. You're also going to lack protection against psychology because of your characters (max ld7 in your line?).

With my Dogs of War, i found success with one big quagmire infantry unit for combat, supported by a large ranged unit (20Xbows) supported by two small ranged units (2x10Xbows). The advantage of the large unit is that it's one unit to buff and gives you lots of bonus for that spell (or hex on enemy target), but the small units give you some flexibility, doing things like killing Goblin Fanatics and weakening small units of Fast Cav or finishing off Chariots, as well as giving you yet more throwaway units on the flanks to re-direct away form your main lines. For Empire, I'd suggest something similar.

The Detachment rules have been absolutely neutered in 8th (ESPECIALLY for ranged units, part of what makes this army the farthest thing away from competitive), but there are still a few small bonuses to be had. If you decide to take a large unit of Handgunners as your central ranged unit, make sure to give your squad leader a pistol to help with your Stand and Shoot reaction (a small bonus they actually have over XBows, who can't take that option). Giving that unit one or two small ranged units as detachments, although it can open you up to Panic, can help them defensively.

If you want to have that ranged unit as your central group, consider looking up Tamurkhan and the Ironsides. They are a GREAT choice for an army like this. They may not actually be awesome on the table, but neither or Handguns on their own, and they are a neat choice and REALLY fit the theme of the force. The larger their unit is, the more you get out of their special rules, so a unit of 20-30 (two ranks of 15 is actually not as crazy wide as it might seem at first!) is a good choice. They still get the Detachment rules and such, so that helps, and they need the Engineer character (who is a neat guy and a sniper) with them.


Pistoliers are a super-rough unit. They are just NOT GOOD for their points. They're just not. And I REALLY want them to be, having twenty of them myself. First, accept that they aren't going to kill anything with shooting, that they aren't worth charging with (two WS3, S3, I3 attacks with a 5+ save...), and they are way to expensive to use as re-directors. Consider just taking small units of Knights to use as hunters/re-directors. You can mod them up with pistols, partial armour/ect to fit the theme if you like.

Outriders are not as bad, but they're just weird. They're main advantage, beyond anything one might think, is that they are tall enough to shoot over your own units. This lets you get some cover with them, use interposing units as re-directors, ect.

A Volley-Gun would really help your cause here (I know, I really like the mortar as well, but it's SOOO expensive for what it does...), as would many, MANY small units of Skirmishing Archers (in my Dogs of War force, I had skirmishers and fast cav to make it work, in the Empire with the expense of the Pistoliers, you just need more skirmishers). That also means you're going to need someone to give your army some leadership (and a BSB wouldn't hurt).



It's of course hard to fit this all in, but (without access to points) I'd do something like: -EDIT-

-20-30 Ironsides (can't remember the points here) with their character, along with:

-2 small detachments of archers (70pts)
-5 Outriders (125)
-2x5 Pistoliers (240)
-5 knights (120)
-Helblaster (120)
-With Engineer (65)
-2 Cannons (240)
-10 Crossbows (100)
-2 small detachments of XBows (90)
-Steam Tank (250)


Thats a bit less than 1500pts (not including the Ironsides). From there you can put in a Wizard Lord on Pegasus, a Captain or General of the Empire and a few more things for fun.

The Wizard you choose is going to be key. I don't actually remember if Lore of Metal helps your ranged force very much -EDIT- Lore of Metal is not a solid choice for a ranged based list. Enchanted Blades only get's 1/2 it's effects when used on Handguns, Volley Guns, Pistols, ect (anything that already has Armour Piercing). Harmonic Convergence from Lore of Light is likely better, at a lower cost with a Bubble use (though it isn't very helpful on Ironsides if you use them) Glittering Robes is basically a waste on the army, and Transmutation still won't save your thin lines against any real combat unit.

Zywus
17-12-2015, 00:16
It doesn't really look like an army that would be very fun to play with or against. I can't comment better on competitiveness than what Ayin has already done. I'd point out that if scenarios are used, the army is probably even less effective.

I realize that you're limited to what models you actually own but surely you don't own just missile troops and war machines?

Ayin
17-12-2015, 03:08
It doesn't really look like an army that would be very fun to play with or against. I can't comment better on competitiveness than what Ayin has already done. I'd point out that if scenarios are used, the army is probably even less effective.

I realize that you're limited to what models you actually own but surely you don't own just missile troops and war machines?


The real problem with an Empire list like this is that, completely incidently, it is composed nearly entirely of the worst choices in the Empire range. Between changes to ranged weapons in 8th, the neutering of the Detachments rules, ranged units not having any synergy-units in the list (no Hurricanum or Luminark or Warrior Priest or Captain benefits), and the whole range being overpointed, things like Mortars, Handguns, Pistoliers, Crossbows, Outriders and Archers suffer greatly. Most Empire lists don't even bother bringing SOME of those units to try and build a "balanced" force, because the points are just so much better spent elsewhere.

That said, with the exception possibly of the Pistoliers, the units still all do perform a role. As long as your opponent isn't bringing a very hard list, you should be able to have good games (with the exception of against Skaven, that is a game that is never going to go well), and as long as you bring something to participate in the movement phase (skirmishers, fast cavalry, Captains on pegasus) you'll have fun.

To make the game seem less daunting to your opponent, switching one of the Cannons for a Volley Gun and one of the Steam Tanks for a Captasus and some other models. The Cannon changing out for the Volley Gun doesn't make your list any less soft, but it does help your opponents perception of it. Switching out one Steam Tank for some other movement based troops/warmachine hunters still gives you options (redirection instead of tarpit) and will once again help your opponents perception.

MagicAngle
19-12-2015, 07:14
Buddy Bear - let us know how you get on. Is that gunline as boring as folks suspect? I've pretty much never had a boring game of WHFB in my life, so my suspicion is, "no"...

Buddy Bear
19-12-2015, 13:23
It doesn't really look like an army that would be very fun to play with or against. I can't comment better on competitiveness than what Ayin has already done. I'd point out that if scenarios are used, the army is probably even less effective.

I realize that you're limited to what models you actually own but surely you don't own just missile troops and war machines?

Nah, I own about 8000 points of Empire. I just thought it'd be nice to try an all firepower list, and this is pretty much all I own that consists of ranged firepower. I have a third Steam Tank, for instance, along with 12 Demigryph Knights, 30 Empire Knights, all three griffon variants (Karl Franz, Empire General, Amber Wizard), and so on. And from time to time I just like creating themed lists focused heavily on one thing or another. In this case, all shooting. Next time I may play all cavalry, and after that I may do all infantry with my 120 State Troops, 20 Greatswords, 30 Flagellants, etc.

GrandmasterWang
10-01-2016, 13:57
Handgunners are placed in the center, flanked by each of the Steam Tanks, with Archers on the left flank and Crossbowmen on the right flank. The three missile units pour fire into the enemy while the Steam Tanks are evenly placed to deal with potential threats which make it to my missile line. They're supported at range by the two Great Cannons, Helblaster Volley Gun, and Mortar, which are buffed by the two Master Engineers. The Outriders and Pistoliers harass the enemy flanks, slowing down marches and performing rear charges as needed. And Balthasar Gelt just flies around lending magical assistance wherever it's needed. The goal is to pulverize enemy units with firepower before they even get a chance to get into melee. And if something does make it through, the Steam Tanks will deal with it, with possible rear charge assistance from the Pistoliers or Outriders.

So thoughts?
I actually kind of like the list. That said... I'd ditch the archers and crossbow guys as they don't imo fit the REAL theme of the army which is....METAL..... glorious metal! Screw the gunline, you have a huge GELT tribute list there. If you don't have any more hand gunners then take some knights (Gelts errand boys maybe?) as knights are covered in metal.

Then you would have a list Gelt could be proud of. Let me know if you have tried the original list and how it went?

I personally think games with/against gunlines can be very fun. Gunlines only become a problem if they are used/faced repeatedly. Then they become a chore rather than a novelty.

Who needs a BsB? Gelt sure don't! Gold magic baby! All eyes on me! Gelt flys around singing the Tupac song to himself.

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