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View Full Version : Battletome: Archaon, what's it like?



Darth Alec
13-12-2015, 23:46
So now that Archaon's out, what are people's thoughts? How's the fluff? Chaos fluff has been ace so far, so I expect good things here. Are the pics still nice? Tell us! There should be some possible hints, or outright statements, of where things are going now that Archaon is back and Sigmar has Ghal Maraz back. Any Duardin hints?

I don't have it yet, since GW didn't send it to my FLGS :(


AFAIK: Here's the rule contents

Warscrolls:
Archaon
Varanguard
Gaunt Summoner

(I'm a little dissapointed that this didn't take all the "slaves to darkness" scrolls from the Warriors compendium)

Warscroll Battallions:
A bunch

Battleplans:
Archaon vs Nagash (Sounds great. Though Nagash seems to fast becoming the "I am awesome and you know it because I killed Nagash like, three times")
a couple more

Buddy Bear
13-12-2015, 23:56
Sounds like Nagash is suffering from the Worf Effect.

Spiney Norman
13-12-2015, 23:59
Sounds like Nagash is suffering from the Worf Effect.

Yep, it's like he's AoS' Eldar avatar

HelloKitty
14-12-2015, 00:19
Its mostly fluff and a lot of photos.

There are three new units (archaon, the varanguard, and the gaunt summoner)
It has a few battle plans.
It has a few new formations.

I am finishing the archaon short stories where he gathers his varanguard first before I read the archaon aos book in depth so I cannot comment on the substance of the story yet.

Vladyhell
14-12-2015, 02:58
Nagash will kick Archaon's ass everytime save a lucky wound roll by Archaon :)

The bearded one
14-12-2015, 03:17
Yep, it's like he's AoS' Eldar avatar

I'm not up to speed on more recent AoS fluff and I'm curious - who have beaten Nagash to a pulp before this tome?

Clewz
14-12-2015, 05:28
Really liked it fluff wise and some of the artwork is superb (especially the Greg Cappullo style intro). Can't help feeling this should of been their second release to let people know what the hell has been going on in the 8 realms. The transfers are a nice touch as well

As for Nagash seems to stand his own in this until he gets tag teamed

lbecks
14-12-2015, 11:21
It has background on Archaon, The Varanguard, and the Gaunt Summoners. It pretty much just sets up that Archaon is the top guy in the AoS universe. And it talks up the Varanguard as the top Chaos warriors setting up the eventual Varanguard vs. Stormcast showdown in some future book. The intro is really nicely illustrated in a different style than we're used too and there are some good illustrations within the book like Archaon and the Varanguard fighting Orcs, though I do find it boring the illustrators now have to adhere strictly to how the models look.

Buddy Bear
14-12-2015, 12:13
So there're only three units statted up in the Everchosen book?

ArtificerArmour
14-12-2015, 13:24
What are the formations? what units do they include?

HelloKitty
14-12-2015, 13:42
There is a formation that is archaon, the varanguard, and the gaunt summoner that does some stuff when taken together. The overlord formation or something.

Then there is a formation for each of the four chaos gods (khorne, tzeentch, nurgle, slaanesh) that involve fielding units in their sacred number and getting bonuses. So eight khorne units each a divisor of eight models gave a bunch of bonuses.

Then there is a formation with the overlord formation and all four of the god specific formations.

I don't remember the individual units unfortunately.

malisteen
14-12-2015, 13:48
I'm disappointed to hear that the book didn't include more of the chaos war scrolls, even if they're free online.

Anyway, it does sound nicer than I expected. I'm almost hopeful for a 'battletome: Nagash' at some point in the future.

HelloKitty
14-12-2015, 13:54
I would expect it. The dwarves are getting theirs in January, I'm highly anxious to get my hands on it and see whats up with them.

malisteen
14-12-2015, 14:01
I certainly do expect it at some point... assuming the game doesn't just die due to the, let's say, complicated birth. There's honestly the seeds of a game I could really like in AoS - a setting potentially half way between Fallout or Madmax and D&D's Planescape, a light (too light right now, but a second edition ruleset could fix that, if the game lives long enough to get one) ruleset with the bulk of the design effort put into interesting special rules on the individual units, etc.

I wouldn't exactly say I'm 'hopeful', but I'm not yet ready to write it off completely. We'll see.

pox
14-12-2015, 14:07
I'm not up to speed on more recent AoS fluff and I'm curious - who have beaten Nagash to a pulp before this tome?

The Skaven killed him with a human patsy and took his hand, then destroyed his stock of Warpstone and his castle in the two centuries it took him to reform.

That's all pre-AoS though.

-DE-
14-12-2015, 14:25
I'm not up to speed on more recent AoS fluff and I'm curious - who have beaten Nagash to a pulp before this tome?

During the Age of Chaos, he first got beaten by Sigmar, and then by Archaon. His corporeal form had also been destroyed by Chaos at the Battle of Black Skies.

malisteen
14-12-2015, 15:03
Nagash Fluff:

Pre End Times fluff:

Skaven sent sent the human Nehekharan prince Alcadizaar to assassinate him while he was recovering from a massive ritual (the one that created the tomb kings faction) with a warpstone blade so deadly it drove the prince mad and killed him shortly after. And even with Nagash's power nearly expended and Alcadizaar's cursed blade, he still only succeeded due to the entire Council of 13 pooling their magical powers to protect him from Nagash's sorcery, and half the council die in the process.

Over the course of a thousand years, his body reformed. After that, he made his way to conquer the world with the same endless undead army he had created previously, but in his weakened state and missing key artifacts of his power (mostly his crown, sort of a one-ring analogue, but enhancing mental domination of the dead, rather than the living), he could not control them, and Settra united the other Tomb Kings to drive him off. Following that failure, Nagash made his way north in search of his crown, which had been locked away by the then-still-living god-king Sigmar. They had a big fight, but Nagash didn't expect any individual living creature to be a match for him in personal power and was taken by surprise by Sigmar and slain again.

A thousand years later, he reformed again. This time more cautious, instead of marching out immediately, he instead started slowly consolidating power, while mentally manipulating necromancers and undead spirits around the world to start seeking out his artifacts of power, again most notably his crown, hoping to collect his junk first, then pick up his nigh limitless tomb kings army, get all his ducks in a row, before trying the global conquest thing again.


End Times Retcons:

The End Times fluff kept most of this, but retconned a few things. Specifically:

Iirc, now the entire council of 13 died protecting Alcadizaar long enough to strike down Nagash the first time, but for their efforts they are rewarded by the Horned Rat, who takes all of their souls and pools them to create the first and greatest of its verminlords, Skreech Verminking.

While he is 'dead', Nagash's spirit can still influence weaker willed undead and and mortals, particularly those steeped in necromantic energy or who have spent a long time studying Nagash's own magic and lore. Nagash cannot return to the living on his own, but instead requires complex rituals and sacrifices to be reincarnated, and his spirit mentally leads his followers, most notably Arkhan the Black, to arrange for his return.

Nagash hasn't returned just once, but rather several times through the centuries. Exactly how many times is unspecified. Sometimes he attacks the Tomb Kings, though he's never managed to conquer them. Sometimes he just attempts to recollect his artifacts. Regardless, he never stays around very long, because...

The Skaven Fellblade that originally slew him didn't just destroy his body, in irreparably damaged his soul. As a result, his physical form is weaker every time he's reincarnated, and when he does return, he constantly leaks magical power until his form collapses to dust. The last time he returned before the End Times he was only able to sustain his form for a few hours.

Thus, from these retcons, we can presume that Nagash has been slain a few more times than just the two mentioned above. In particular, it's probably safe to assume that he's been killed by Settra a time or three.


End Times Fluff:

The End Times campaign opened with a Plot by Arkhan and Mannfred to revive Nagash and restore him to his full strength, and then some. Mannfred had planned to subvert the ritual, kill Arkhan and Nagash, and steal their power and artifacts in the process, but Arkhan easily out-played him due to an artifact that allowed the liche to hear all of Mannfred's thoughts. Anyway, the ritual involves re-collecting all of Nagashes artifacts and relics, especially the fell blade that originally slew him, as well as a number of mortals who had within them divine blood - most notably the Everchild. During the ritual, the Fellblade was destroyed, freeing Nagash's soul of the curse, and the demigods were sacrificed, giving Nagash divine power and a truer form of immortality than he already possessed. He also planned on personally absorbing the entire wind of Shyish (rather than merely mastering it), but that failed due to elven trickery (The elven sacrifice was cursed), so he bound it to the land of Sylvania instead.

Nagash went on to conquer the tomb kings, march them back North to Sylvania, and turtle up while he slowly absorbed the Wind of Death the old fashioned way, using his Black Pyramid, which he also brought back with him from Nehekhara. This basically put him in a resource race with Archaon and his attempt to open the rift. Nagash would have won, becoming a god - not on the level of the Chaos Gods, but enough of one that he would have been able to forcibly evict their power from the world and sever it from the influence of the warp altogether. Except a dual invasion of Nurgle daemons and Skaven was able to blow up his pyramid, utterly ruining that plan. That left Nagash with two choices, team up with Chaos, or with the Living. He elected the later, they fought, and lost, and Nagash was slain when the rift consumed the world.

You can give that kill to Archaon, or to Mannfred, but honestly it shouldn't really go to anyone.


Post-End Times

Nagash eventually re-forms in the new realms, conquers Shyish, and is convinced to join Sigmar in his new pantheon. All goes well for a long time, but eventually the alliance falls apart, not due to Nagash (he probably had plans of betrayal he was working on, but at no point did he find them worth acting on), but rather due to the forces of Destruction getting too unruly and the Elven dieties going behind Sigmar's back to try and gank Slaanesh and steal back the elven souls ze had consumed during the End Times. This results in chaos invading. At some point, the undead seem to betray the alliance during this war, and Sigmar blames Nagash (though, let's be real, it was probably Mannfred). Nagash refuses to fight him, and he eventually returns to the war on chaos, but by then it's too late, chaos wins, Sigmar withdraws to his city to plan his eventual sigmarine counter attack. Nagash holds out a bit longer, but is subverted by skaven tunneling holes straight from the realm of chaos to Nagash's underworlds, forcing him into direct battle, in which he is eventually cut down by Archaon. Chaos overruns much of Shyish and its underworlds, but the deepest bastions are held by Nagash's remaining loyal Mortarchs (probably Arkhan and Krell, maybe some others).

Nagash eventually returns and starts forcing Chaos out of his realm. It's been an age since he was around, and the dead had been restless, but relatively quiet during that time, so the current generation of chaos warriors were totally unprepared for his return, but once their masters realized what was going on more potent resistance and renewed skaven assaults began, causing the war to bog down, and that brings you to current times, minus anything that might be described in the new Archaon battletome.



So, confirmed Nagash killers:
Alcadizaar + Council of 13 (Nagash weakened by expending all his power in a ritual)
Sigmar as a mortal man (Nagash weakened by Skaven curse and missing his artifacts)
Archaon (Nagash as a god of death at full strength)

And one can reasonably assume:
Settra, maybe several times, (Nagash weakened by Skaven curse and missing his artifacts)


It's worth noting that, had Nagash not been slain the first time, all life on the Warhammer World would have been snuffed out. There was no army at the time fit to oppose his Endless Legion, not with the Dwarven empire still reeling from their great collapse, and the Elves still crippled from their Civil War.

lbecks
14-12-2015, 21:32
I'm disappointed to hear that the book didn't include more of the chaos war scrolls, even if they're free online.

Anyway, it does sound nicer than I expected. I'm almost hopeful for a 'battletome: Nagash' at some point in the future.

It pretty much just focuses on Archaon, Varanguard, and Gaunt Summoners. It seems like the rest of the undivided units might be put into some other book when they all get re-based.

Mage
16-12-2015, 09:21
For the amount of money it costs versus the rules contained, I am going to be passing on these battletomes for a while.

2DSick
16-12-2015, 11:03
It just doesn't even compete with the content you used to find in WD (pre-pre-shakeup).

And a years sub was about 40bats sterling?

Mage
16-12-2015, 11:24
It would be different if it was a source book for a RPG, but for a wargame, it should be less expensive and have more content, along the lines of what Codex books used to be and what Privateer Press currently puts out. I mean, 46 euros is a lot of money for what you get...

Buddy Bear
16-12-2015, 12:09
It is a bit ridiculous that there's a grand total of three unit entries in the whole thing. I expected to see it packed with Chaos Warrior unit entries at least. At least when Codex: Imperial Knights first came out with only two unit entries, it was also a lot cheaper than a standard sized codex.

Zywus
16-12-2015, 12:36
I have long seized to expect anything other than the absolute least I can imagine from any AoS release.

I wouldn't really have been surprised if Archaon was the only entry to be honest.

Mage
16-12-2015, 12:38
+1 to what Buddy Bear set. It would be handy if all those entries were in there all in the one place in one book, even if they are for free on the site. It would make life easier.

Agree with you on Imperial Knights Codex.

Are all these books hardback or softback btw?

Buddy Bear
16-12-2015, 12:51
Hardcover.

Incidentally, even with Codex: Imperial Knights I thought that was a colossal ripoff, and it was what, $33 (And it was replaced a year later, which is just... ugh!)? I can't imagine paying $58 for just one extra unit entry.

Mage
16-12-2015, 13:01
Yeah, they knew the other stuff was on the release schedule, I am glad I did not treat myself to the first book. It was a bit of a kick in the pants to those who bought it.

HelloKitty
16-12-2015, 13:03
It is my sincerest hope that you will all realize Games Workshop isn't targeting gamers, and that books like the archaon book arent' really much as gaming books. They are in essence mostly about the storyline and pictures, much like all of the AOS books that have been released to date. They are purely about delivering the current story and then including the rules that you can get for free anyway to have them as well, though not necessary and certainly the rules in these books is not the focus.

From a pure gamer standpoint, if you are just after the rules you have them for free on the warhammer app and there is no reason whatsoever that you'd ever buy the archaon book.

Note that this is not an open invitation to have a scathing debate on GW not focusing on gamers anymore, there are about 100 active threads going on simultaneously focused on that argument, and actually you'd not get any argument out of me because I have no ability to change how the company does things. I'll just continue to watch how this litmus test unfolds.

Mage
16-12-2015, 13:16
I can see that, as can most, and hopefully the low sales will make them rethink what they are doing and go back to doing what the customers actually want from their product. Hopefully they will realise someday they need to reverse this.

I thought the rules for new units were only with the unit or in books and not free?

HelloKitty
16-12-2015, 13:19
The warhammer app has all the rules for free. All of the units in the book can be obtained by the app for free. The books from a gamer's perspective really offer nothing. This is the experiment people have speculated on for years and years - the "make the rules free then just sell the narrative books to the side and if people will want them they will buy them".

I will say that the battleplans (scenarios) are not for free however and the books have those, but a lot of people seem to not care about those either. I hope they start offering the battleplans on the app and let you buy them individually, but black library battle plans are running $5 a pop.

Mage
16-12-2015, 14:07
I had it and deleted it, it was using up a fair bit of memory. I might back up some photos onto my laptop and download it again.

$5.00 for one scenario is a tad steep.

Captain Marius
16-12-2015, 16:49
The scenario in this book with archaon and nagash duelling in the middle of the board while battle rages around them looks like great fun, ill be trying this with a high and dark elf dragon lords i think!

SuperHappyTime
16-12-2015, 17:04
Tired of seeing Chaos. Can we move on to the Elves, Dwarfs, Greenskins or Undead?

HelloKitty
16-12-2015, 17:11
January dwarves~!

Dosiere
16-12-2015, 18:02
It is my sincerest hope that you will all realize Games Workshop isn't targeting gamers, and that books like the archaon book arent' really much as gaming books. They are in essence mostly about the storyline and pictures, much like all of the AOS books that have been released to date. They are purely about delivering the current story and then including the rules that you can get for free anyway to have them as well, though not necessary and certainly the rules in these books is not the focus.

From a pure gamer standpoint, if you are just after the rules you have them for free on the warhammer app and there is no reason whatsoever that you'd ever buy the archaon book.

Note that this is not an open invitation to have a scathing debate on GW not focusing on gamers anymore, there are about 100 active threads going on simultaneously focused on that argument, and actually you'd not get any argument out of me because I have no ability to change how the company does things. I'll just continue to watch how this litmus test unfolds.

I think you're almost correct HK. Btw, do you have all the AoS books, or at least some of them? I ask because as someone who bought the first one I have a slightly different opinion on them. I do not have and haven't actually seen any of the battletomes except for the Sigmarine one, so maybe they're actually more along the vein you are getting at.

The difference is that the first book at least is most decidedly NOT a story book. It has very little content from either a narrative or a gaming standpoint. What it has is pictures, lots and lots of pictures. The vast majority of the pages are filled from corner to coner with artwork of Sigmarines or Chaos in the same poses and doing the same thing. The rest have pictures of miniatures in the same poses doing the same thing. The Ghal Maraz book seemed slightly better, but the Sigmarine battletome certainly wasn't. They're like really expensive versions of Warhammer Visions. What little is there is very bland, which happens to be exactly like the first novel, which I eagerly bought and read on release day as well as the first sourcebook.

There is very little hobby material either, which I found super odd until I realized they have separated that part into their own books and digital downloads these days.

I wish what you are saying is actually the direction from GW. Had AoS been a game about narrative gaming/storytelling, rather than just a strange skirmish battle game I probably would have enjoyed it. I am enjoying other games that are actually designed to be more about either narrative or cooperative experiences like Frostgrave and Descent. AoS is not designed to be anything other than an interactive miniature showcase, and the books I have seen scream this loud and clear.

Horus38
16-12-2015, 18:12
In reference to the Nagash battle: Archaon manages to drive the Great Necromancer off into a retreat, but Nagash is not destroyed/killed again in this book.

Captain Marius
16-12-2015, 18:14
I found the stormcast and bloodbound battletomes interesting because they were set after the events of the first two big books. Thats 90 im not really keen to spend even though i have thoroughly enjoyed the content of the battletomes so far.

Philhelm
16-12-2015, 18:37
Tired of seeing Chaos. Can we move on to the Elves, Dwarfs, Greenskins or Undead?

Or even regular humans.

Philhelm
16-12-2015, 18:39
Tired of seeing Chaos. Can we move on to the Elves, Dwarfs, Greenskins or Undead?

Or even regular humans.

Mage
16-12-2015, 21:15
I'm gonna get some Brettonians to fight with my Stormcast (alongside, that is)

HelloKitty
16-12-2015, 21:31
I think you're almost correct HK. Btw, do you have all the AoS books, or at least some of them? I ask because as someone who bought the first one I have a slightly different opinion on them. I do not have and haven't actually seen any of the battletomes except for the Sigmarine one, so maybe they're actually more along the vein you are getting at.

The difference is that the first book at least is most decidedly NOT a story book. It has very little content from either a narrative or a gaming standpoint. What it has is pictures, lots and lots of pictures. The vast majority of the pages are filled from corner to coner with artwork of Sigmarines or Chaos in the same poses and doing the same thing. The rest have pictures of miniatures in the same poses doing the same thing. The Ghal Maraz book seemed slightly better, but the Sigmarine battletome certainly wasn't. They're like really expensive versions of Warhammer Visions. What little is there is very bland, which happens to be exactly like the first novel, which I eagerly bought and read on release day as well as the first sourcebook.

There is very little hobby material either, which I found super odd until I realized they have separated that part into their own books and digital downloads these days.

I wish what you are saying is actually the direction from GW. Had AoS been a game about narrative gaming/storytelling, rather than just a strange skirmish battle game I probably would have enjoyed it. I am enjoying other games that are actually designed to be more about either narrative or cooperative experiences like Frostgrave and Descent. AoS is not designed to be anything other than an interactive miniature showcase, and the books I have seen scream this loud and clear.

I personally do not own any of the books other than the first one that came out (and wouldn't have bought that but I pre ordered it thinking it would be like a rulebook) because I don't need them and am not going to spend that kind of money on a book I don't need. I buy the novels and audio dramas though. The guy that runs our campaign and writes the azyr system has I believe all of the books and I have thumbed through them all and read through most of them, albeit briefly.

Darth Alec
16-12-2015, 21:31
In reference to the Nagash battle: Archaon manages to drive the Great Necromancer off into a retreat, but Nagash is not destroyed/killed again in this book.

Waiting patiently for the FLGS to get the book.


Or even regular humans.

Well, there are duardin en route in january. That's going to be good! I hope we get a new campaign book with that.


I'm gonna get some Brettonians to fight with my Stormcast (alongside, that is)

You might not want to wait too long to get them. They may disappear before you know it :p

Mage
16-12-2015, 21:37
Yeah I heard about that

Spiney Norman
16-12-2015, 22:07
I will say that the battleplans (scenarios) are not for free however and the books have those, but a lot of people seem to not care about those either. I hope they start offering the battleplans on the app and let you buy them individually, but black library battle plans are running $5 a pop.

Which version of the app are you running? You've been able to download individual scenarios for a while, I downloaded a bunch of them over Black Friday weekend when they were all available for 79p each (not sure on the US equivalent).

You can also download 'battle packs' through the app, which is essentially all the rules content (time of war rules and batallion Warscrolls) plus all the battle plans from a book for a price considerably less than the retail value of the book.

HelloKitty
16-12-2015, 22:48
Thats cool. My phone has the books available but no battleplans that I can see... unless I buy the book perhaps? Not sure.

Dosiere
16-12-2015, 23:22
Try deleting the app and reinstalling it. I had to do that often as the wars rolls wouldn't update automatically half the time for me. They did make the battalion war scrolls and the battle plans available separately from the books.

malisteen
17-12-2015, 00:07
Well, I had my first close look at Archaon today, and wow is that guy a beast. Very much on a level with Nagash. I would love to throw those two up against each other.

I think Archaon's lower rend (only -1), gives the edge to the Death God, even with Archaon having more attacks and more wounds, especially when you factor in that Nagash will probably have arcane shield, and Archaon probably won't thanks to Nagash's bonus to unbinding). Still, with his 4+ immunity to magic from 'everchosen' giving some insulation from the hand of dust (otherwise the deciding factor in most 'superhero vs nagash' matches), and his own threat of instant death in return (albeit at a lower likelihood than HoD, even with the everchosen ability), it's still a pretty darn close match, from what I can tell just looking at the numbers.

Spiney Norman
17-12-2015, 11:48
Thats cool. My phone has the books available but no battleplans that I can see... unless I buy the book perhaps? Not sure.

If you go to the Warscrolls section and access the 'My Battle' screen through the link in the top left you should have the option to add battle plans and time of war rules to your selection, clicking on the '+' will bring up a full list of battle plans with the option to purchase them separately.

Battle packs have their own tab at the bottom of the screen between the Warscrolls tab and the rules tab.

GrandmasterWang
17-12-2015, 15:51
So 3 unit entries, a few battalion scrolls and.....

Isn't this the largest page count Battletome yet?

I mean pictures no doubt take up a large part but there must be a large amount of story in there right?

Stormcast Battletome was filled with unit entries. This only has 3 so that extra space must be used for something?

Of all the Battletomes this is the most intriguing to me

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

ArtificerArmour
17-12-2015, 17:47
I'm suprised smithers IMEAN Crom wasn't included in the book

Ayin
17-12-2015, 18:09
I'm suprised smithers IMEAN Crom wasn't included in the book

Does he have a new model? Is it a big plastic kit? Because if not, I'm not seeing how it would be surprising that he's not included.

Buddy Bear
17-12-2015, 18:12
He died in End Times: Nagash.

Ayin
17-12-2015, 18:54
He died in End Times: Nagash.

Lots of people did. More specifically Crom has a name that previously exists in media (much like Malekith) and so it's unlikely he will appear in the new setting where GW is only approving things that they have uncontested IP control of unless, much like Malekith, he gets a re-name and different concept.

ArtificerArmour
17-12-2015, 18:55
To address the last two posts:

a) Valkia, Scylla Anfingrim and the Aspiring Deathdealer are all finecast miniatures rebased for Battletomb: Khorne Bloodbound

b) What is this End Times: Nagash? is it some fanfic based on Age of Sigmar?

c) Seriously, everyone died in the End Times...n00b...

Ayin
17-12-2015, 19:11
To address the last two posts:

a) Valkia, Scylla Anfingrim and the Aspiring Deathdealer are all finecast miniatures rebased for Battletomb: Khorne Bloodbound


Indeed, but none of them have a name that previously exists in media and that makes establishing full ownership of the IP potentially difficult. Thus, he is avoided while they are carried through. It's very possible he could have been brought forward, but likely either would have needed a new plastic model (the increased sales being worth the IP issue, though this doesn't seem to be direction GW feels like going) or a re-naming of the character.

ArtificerArmour
17-12-2015, 20:58
exhibit a:

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Crom-the-Conquerer

exhibit b: he has rules in the chaos warscroll compendium, one of which is specific to Archaon being on the table.

exhibit c:

http://sia1.subirimagenes.net/img/2014/07/17/140717112640114277.jpg

He could easily have been renamed "Krom", "Krom, Herald of the Everchosen", "Varanlord" or generic "herald of the Everchosen".

Missed opportunity, and makes infinitely more sence to include than a "gaunt summoner"

Buddy Bear
17-12-2015, 21:02
exhibit a:

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Crom-the-Conquerer

exhibit b: he has rules in the chaos warscroll compendium, one of which is specific to Archaon being on the table.

...and the Archaon in question is the one which existed on the Old World, not the new one. Pointing to those lists is like claiming that Karl Franz and Louen Leoncoeur are still alive because they have warscrolls. Having a warscroll is utterly meaningless as proof over whether a character is still alive or not. You may as well argue that Marius Leitdorf is still alive as he has AOS rules, even though he died long before even the End Times began.

lbecks
17-12-2015, 21:42
Crom died and no one resurrected him. Valkia, Scylla, Skarr Bloodwrath, they get resurrected by Khorne when they die. He likes them.

I guess when they re-base the chaos models they could bring back Crom's model and call his Chaos Lord. But Crom is dead.

Ayin
18-12-2015, 00:56
...and the Archaon in question is the one which existed on the Old World, not the new one. Pointing to those lists is like claiming that Karl Franz and Louen Leoncoeur are still alive because they have warscrolls. Having a warscroll is utterly meaningless as proof over whether a character is still alive or not. You may as well argue that Marius Leitdorf is still alive as he has AOS rules, even though he died long before even the End Times began.

Thankyou for saving me the time at making what should be a ludicrously easy argument.

Darth Alec
18-12-2015, 05:01
Well, I had my first close look at Archaon today, and wow is that guy a beast. Very much on a level with Nagash. I would love to throw those two up against each other.

I think Archaon's lower rend (only -1), gives the edge to the Death God, even with Archaon having more attacks and more wounds, especially when you factor in that Nagash will probably have arcane shield, and Archaon probably won't thanks to Nagash's bonus to unbinding). Still, with his 4+ immunity to magic from 'everchosen' giving some insulation from the hand of dust (otherwise the deciding factor in most 'superhero vs nagash' matches), and his own threat of instant death in return (albeit at a lower likelihood than HoD, even with the everchosen ability), it's still a pretty darn close match, from what I can tell just looking at the numbers.

That -1 rend is pretty darn terrible. For everything that Archaon is, punching through armour is a really important factor. Nagash will effectively negate his rend, since there's no reason for him not to have a Mystic Shield. I fear that most of these fights will end in a hand of dust destroying Archaon before he can put enough wounds on Nagash. If he can't do that, the Everchosen probably has this. 20 wounds is a ton, and not all of his attacks are diminished by damage. Though it's a surprisingly close matchup (without knowing the numbers), compared to Nagash versus anyone else.

I need to play this matchup at least once in my life. Those two up against each other would look amazing. Really want to see how it is in the Battletome.

malisteen
18-12-2015, 09:39
Archaons sword really should have been -2 rend, at least.

There's a scenario just for the Archaon vs. Nagash battle in the Archaon book, but... it's really unsatisfying, because it puts a huge handicap on Nagash to give Archaon the edge. Basically, there's a table that both hero's choose actions from instead of acting normally, and the effect of that table is to give archaon first swing in every combat round and prevent Nagash from casting any spells, since there is really no reason for archaon to ever choose any option other than 'all out attack' on that table. The White Dwarf tried to talk it up like some sort of interesting game of outguessing and predicting, choosing your action on the table based on what you think the opponent will do, but... No matter what Nagash picks, 'all out attack' is Archaon's best choice, and unless the WD was leaving something out, there's nothing preventing you from choosing the same thing over and over, so there's really no strategy to it at all, and it turns into 'duke it out, melee only, no shooting, no spells'.

ArtificerArmour
18-12-2015, 12:23
Thankyou for saving me the time at making what should be a ludicrously easy argument.

How so? Everybody died in the End Times. Games Workshop has released rules for everyone in AoS who has models, but who says those characters are dead? Hmm?

How do we know Karl Franz has not been resurrected and is in charge of a village somewhere? Or Marius?

GW have rebooted the fluff, and have rules for all these models. As far as I'm concerned, until some hard, concrete fluff disputes this, they are alive and may participate in any battle of your choosing.

All we know are some particular noteable champions are now alive and kicking somewhere as they have rules. There is no canon anymore, GW have thrown it to the wind.

Crom has rules for AoS. He has a model for AoS. Therefore he is alive.

As far as we know everyone dies and gets reborn as standard. GW dorsn't care.

Zywus
18-12-2015, 12:34
From a background perspective, isn't it more reasonable to assume everyone in the setting is dead until there is evidence otherwise?
Not only was the planet they were on destroyed but there has passed at least several hundred years, right? Or is it thousands?


Of course the characters exist in that there are rules for using the models representing them, but that's not the same thing as the characters being alive in the new AoS setting. Grom the pouch had rules in the 5th edition Orc and Goblin armybook and the timeline of the setting had advanced several hundred years past the time of his exploits.

GrandmasterWang
18-12-2015, 15:52
How so? Everybody died in the End Times. Games Workshop has released rules for everyone in AoS who has models, but who says those characters are dead? Hmm?

How do we know Karl Franz has not been resurrected and is in charge of a village somewhere? Or Marius?

GW have rebooted the fluff, and have rules for all these models. As far as I'm concerned, until some hard, concrete fluff disputes this, they are alive and may participate in any battle of your choosing.

All we know are some particular noteable champions are now alive and kicking somewhere as they have rules. There is no canon anymore, GW have thrown it to the wind.

Crom has rules for AoS. He has a model for AoS. Therefore he is alive.

As far as we know everyone dies and gets reborn as standard. GW dorsn't care.
We are the gamers... we have the power.

If someone plays Crom in an AOS battle in an AOS setting (ie Brimstone Peninsula rather than Averland) then he MUST be alive for that battle.... the why is up to us.

If I can play an 8th Edition/Chillhammer battle with Gorthor the Beastlord vs Skarsnik or Azhag the Slaughterer vs Belegar then there is no reason not to use these provided Warscrolls in AOS.

Gorthor was already dead... i guess he is dead twice with the event of AOS. Tzeentch is a God of time and magic flows funny in the 9 realms. There are ways even 'officially dead' characters could appear in the AOS-verse. It seems a shame to 'snub' these historical Warscrolls because they may be dead in the new setting.

If you have the model.... you have to power to magically resurrect them for your battles ho ho.

Chalk one up for the dice rollers

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Ayin
18-12-2015, 16:19
How so? Everybody died in the End Times. Games Workshop has released rules for everyone in AoS who has models, but who says those characters are dead? Hmm?

Everyone can be brought back except Gwen Stacy, Bucky Barns, and Uncle Ben, and two of those are active characters again. I get it.

However, GW has so far not brought anyone back who wasn't either A) alive at the end near the final battle at the vortex (even Grimgor, while killed, was killed at the Vortex) or B) a creature of Chaos (Valkia) who can't actually die.



How do we know Karl Franz has not been resurrected and is in charge of a village somewhere? Or Marius?

You might not be aware of this, but Franz and Archaon are two of the characters who DON'T have a definite "ending" in the End Times, and likely Franz (in Sigmarine form) has ALREADY reappeared in the model line.



GW have rebooted the fluff, and have rules for all these models. As far as I'm concerned, until some hard, concrete fluff disputes this, they are alive and may participate in any battle of your choosing.

Neat-o. They have rules for every model they had rules for in 8th. They have Empire soldiers despite not having an Empire, Brets despite not having a Bretonia. As far as I'm concerned, the carryover rules they put out so that players could still use their current armies in AoS represent exactly that until GW creates something that shows this to be otherwise (an Empire for the Empire soldiers, a Brettonia for the Bretons, ect). GW not having explicitly stated that in AoS Borgio the Besieger is dead and gone does nothing to change the fact that, as it stands, there is no fluff supporting his current existence. The exact same can be said for Marius Leitdorf, or Crom.



All we know are some particular noteable champions are now alive and kicking somewhere as they have rules. There is no canon anymore, GW have thrown it to the wind.

There is a great deal of established canon for AoS. You might not have noticed, but GW have released several books which contain little in the way of rules and mostly fluff. In addition to this they have novels, and explanations for updated units/armies. So, your statement is outright false. I am sure you will correct it and admit your error.




Crom has rules for AoS. He has a model for AoS. Therefore he is alive.


Leitdorf and Borgio had rules for Fantasy. They had models for Fantasy. Therefore they were alive in Fantasy.

malisteen
18-12-2015, 16:24
Wait, who's snubbing war scrolls? I don't think anyone was doing that. Just saying that, until a character shows up in the fluff, one should not assume they're part of the current fluff is all. Doesn't mean they aren't a valid option in the game.

Darth Alec
18-12-2015, 22:03
Just flipped through the book today. WOOOOOOOW. Loved it. Great setup for the next phase of the Realmgates wars. Archaon is throwing mortals at Sigmar to delay him, whilst gathering his own forces at the allpoints.

Archaon also having his own agenda, and a very clear line of "yes, I fight for all the gods, but you fight for me" is great. They're really pushing the mastermind of war angle, and so far it works!

Oh, and here's the warscroll battallions:

Overlords of Chaos:
Archaon, Gaunt Summoner, Varanguard
Grants a solid bonus to knowing who gets the initiative next battle round (playing into his generalship), and a HUGE buff to the Varanguard.

Bloodmarked Warband:
1 Mortal Khorne Hero, 8 Mortal Khorne units
bonuses if multiples of 8, bonuses if a Hero kills something in the combat phase, and a fluffy, silly boost turning an ordinary model into a hero.

Plaguetouched Warband:
1 Mortal Nurgle Hero (could be Skaven? Don't remember if they have the Mortal keyword), 7 Mortal Nurgle units
HUUUUUGE buffs to nurgle units. Wound rolls of 6 or more cause a mortal wound back on the enemy, and all models have -1 to hit in close combat. (Granted, they work against each other, but still! -1 to hit is huge)

Fatesworn Warband
1 Mortal Tzeench hero
9 Mortal Tzeench units
6+ ward if a multiple of 9, snore. All models have -1 rend, freaking great! All heroes may cast arcane bolt! Twice if they are wizards! Solid, solid buff.

Pleasurebound Warband (Oh Slaanesh is being phased out is it?)
1 Mortal Slaanesh Hero
6 Mortal Slaanesh units
+2 bravery if a multiple of 6 (solid). If a model in the unit is slain, the entire unit may pile in 6" instead of 3". Potentially good? Needs a lot more planning to make work. Easily the least intuitive buff.

Archaons Grand Host:
1 Overlords of Chaos, four of any combination of the above
Archaon may summon a deamon unit on a 5+ in his hero phase. Noice. All units within 10" of Archaon may pile in and attack before the opponent. Potentially HUGE. Once per game. Lets you bypass normal combat turn order, though not for Archaon himself.


These warbands make me want to collect Chaos... Dang it GW!

GrandmasterWang
18-12-2015, 23:30
Just flipped through the book today. WOOOOOOOW. Loved it. Great setup for the next phase of the Realmgates wars. Archaon is throwing mortals at Sigmar to delay him, whilst gathering his own forces at the allpoints.

Archaon also having his own agenda, and a very clear line of "yes, I fight for all the gods, but you fight for me" is great. They're really pushing the mastermind of war angle, and so far it works!

Oh, and here's the warscroll battallions:

Overlords of Chaos:
Archaon, Gaunt Summoner, Varanguard
Grants a solid bonus to knowing who gets the initiative next battle round (playing into his generalship), and a HUGE buff to the Varanguard.

Bloodmarked Warband:
1 Mortal Khorne Hero, 8 Mortal Khorne units
bonuses if multiples of 8, bonuses if a Hero kills something in the combat phase, and a fluffy, silly boost turning an ordinary model into a hero.

Plaguetouched Warband:
1 Mortal Nurgle Hero (could be Skaven? Don't remember if they have the Mortal keyword), 7 Mortal Nurgle units
HUUUUUGE buffs to nurgle units. Wound rolls of 6 or more cause a mortal wound back on the enemy, and all models have -1 to hit in close combat. (Granted, they work against each other, but still! -1 to hit is huge)

Fatesworn Warband
1 Mortal Tzeench hero
9 Mortal Tzeench units
6+ ward if a multiple of 9, snore. All models have -1 rend, freaking great! All heroes may cast arcane bolt! Twice if they are wizards! Solid, solid buff.

Pleasurebound Warband (Oh Slaanesh is being phased out is it?)
1 Mortal Slaanesh Hero
6 Mortal Slaanesh units
+2 bravery if a multiple of 6 (solid). If a model in the unit is slain, the entire unit may pile in 6" instead of 3". Potentially good? Needs a lot more planning to make work. Easily the least intuitive buff.

Archaons Grand Host:
1 Overlords of Chaos, four of any combination of the above
Archaon may summon a deamon unit on a 5+ in his hero phase. Noice. All units within 10" of Archaon may pile in and attack before the opponent. Potentially HUGE. Once per game. Lets you bypass normal combat turn order, though not for Archaon himself.


These warbands make me want to collect Chaos... Dang it GW!
Great! Finally an appraisal of the book. I got the Gaunt Summoner White Dwarf and saw the Archaon vs Nagash art which was epic!

What do you think of the art in this book?

Given there are less Warscrolls compared with other Battletomes what is this 'free' space taken up with?

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lbecks
18-12-2015, 23:53
The Archaon book is a lot better than the Khorne book. Art-wise and fluff-wise.

LotusCorgi
19-12-2015, 05:30
To address the last two posts:

b) What is this End Times: Nagash? is it some fanfic based on Age of Sigmar?


...Ok, I can't tell if your joking or not.

Darth Alec
19-12-2015, 07:43
Great! Finally an appraisal of the book. I got the Gaunt Summoner White Dwarf and saw the Archaon vs Nagash art which was epic!

What do you think of the art in this book?

Given there are less Warscrolls compared with other Battletomes what is this 'free' space taken up with?

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I felt the art was excellent. The Seraphon tome had some real stinkers (and some great ones), but here the quality is consistently high. Lots of really inspired images. The Intro is beautiful. Excepting one really goofy looking Slann and some pretty, but uninspired pictures, everything is niiice.

The rest of the space is Fluff. They really build up Archaon well in this one. He feels like the threat he should be. It sets up the future brilliantly, and makes him a somewhat mysterious character.

GrandmasterWang
19-12-2015, 13:25
I felt the art was excellent. The Seraphon tome had some real stinkers (and some great ones), but here the quality is consistently high. Lots of really inspired images. The Intro is beautiful. Excepting one really goofy looking Slann and some pretty, but uninspired pictures, everything is niiice.

The rest of the space is Fluff. They really build up Archaon well in this one. He feels like the threat he should be. It sets up the future brilliantly, and makes him a somewhat mysterious character.
Ah ok.

So this goofy Slann art is in the Archaon battletomb only? Or is it in the Seraphon one or both?

Good to hear the Archaon story is good.

Im considering getting the Call of Archaon hardback regarding his would be champions (the 8 short story book). Have you read this? If so how does it tie into the Battletome? (no spoilers please)

It seems like this one has much more 'fluff of substance' than the Stormcast battletome from what you are saying. Would you agree with this?


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Darth Alec
19-12-2015, 19:32
Goody Slann art is in Archaon. It's not terrible, it just ruins the serious nature of the picture :P

I'm getting the Call of Archaon for christmas reading, so I'll report back after christmas on that.

Not read the Stormcast Battletome (waiting on starting the army). I've not heard much good, but I guess half of its problems is being the battletome that covers the basics of a faction we already knew a lot about.

Ayin
21-12-2015, 14:02
Just flipped through the book today. WOOOOOOOW. Loved it. Great setup for the next phase of the Realmgates wars. Archaon is throwing mortals at Sigmar to delay him, whilst gathering his own forces at the allpoints.

Archaon also having his own agenda, and a very clear line of "yes, I fight for all the gods, but you fight for me" is great. They're really pushing the mastermind of war angle, and so far it works!

Do they ever touch on Archaon's feelings after the revelation in End Times in regards to his fighting Sigmar and now, obviously, his inability to further deny him, or his feelings at eternally serving the Chaos Gods as their Herald despite having accomplished the one goal he did have?

Or is it just kind of a do-over for AoS where he's back to "Archaon, bringer of world ending" and does what he does because he does?

Darth Alec
21-12-2015, 20:03
Do they ever touch on Archaon's feelings after the revelation in End Times in regards to his fighting Sigmar and now, obviously, his inability to further deny him, or his feelings at eternally serving the Chaos Gods as their Herald despite having accomplished the one goal he did have?

Or is it just kind of a do-over for AoS where he's back to "Archaon, bringer of world ending" and does what he does because he does?

There's some of both. In the fantastic into, Archaon sees an image of the future in the aftermath of the End Times. It has a lot of things to interpret, but one is the image of him fighting sigmar and the text "And so the God-King was brought low by the ruinous powers and their champion...", with an image of Archaon grasping for Ghal Maraz afterwards.

They are also described as reflections of each other. Both Warrior-Kings able to unite disparate forces into an unstoppable empire. Archaon has the Varanspire where Sigmar has Sigmaron.

As far as I can see, it doesn't even mention that Archaon was the one who doomed the world-that-was. Which is such a massive oversight that I feel like they are keeping that for some time later.

Ayin
22-12-2015, 19:28
As far as I can see, it doesn't even mention that Archaon was the one who doomed the world-that-was. Which is such a massive oversight that I feel like they are keeping that for some time later.

Eh. There new world is based off the Old World in that the Fantasy game makes up the legends and origins, but this new world has been set so far in the future that it's own history is practically legend. I doubt GW will put any significant effort into attempting to add more information to a game line that they've moved on from. Characters will be said to have "ancient grudges" and "eternal enmities" and such. As you said, Archaon and Sigmar are compared in the AoS, with Archaon not leading the Warriors of the Chaos Wastes into the Empire founded by Sigmar, but the Varanspire vs the Sigmaron. What went before is largely irrelevant to laying the foundation of the new setting.

Darth Alec
23-12-2015, 00:02
That's a solid point. I guess it isn't without reason that the Age of Myth is called that.

I would still like a few more overt references when we finally see him in a novel. He is effectively the most fleshed out character (counting Old World fluff) beyond Sigmar and Nagash, and they should use that.

Bun Bun
23-12-2015, 01:52
Everything appears to be gearing up for the next massive confrontation which will be the War for Allpoints.

Mage
23-12-2015, 20:51
Havent read the fluff what are the allpoints

Clewz
24-12-2015, 05:28
Its an area where there are a series of gates connecting to all the realms. Was a territory of major strategic importance during the coming of chaos and was where Nagash betrayed Sigmar. They are now known as the eight points

Mage
24-12-2015, 06:18
Sounds like something from Turok: Dinosaur hunter on the nintendo 64

Tyranno1
24-12-2015, 15:36
Sounds like something from Turok: Dinosaur hunter on the nintendo 64

Hub area.

And yeah, 8 levels. Sounds very familiar XD.

Mage
27-12-2015, 07:00
Forgot the name, it was on the tip of my tongue!

Darth Alec
27-12-2015, 22:41
The Eightpoints seem to be the chaos staging area ATM. As people said, it's a region "outside" the normal 8 realms, and is connected to all of them. It's important since it lets whoever controls it attack any realm, from any realm.

This books just makes me want to collect chaos more and more.