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rapaxvita
15-12-2015, 04:34
What is the latest/earliest age that a human has been turned into a space marine?

When space marines go through training they start out as scouts, are they put into a squad based on their application pool? Meaning if you applied to be a space marine during year x, then you will go through training and be placed in a scout squad with other people in year x? Similar to classes (the class of 2015 or whatever) in school. Or possibly do they scouts get to choose the squads they are a part of?

The implantation process takes approximately 10 years to be complete, from age 10 to around 19. However what about the rest of the process of becoming a fully formed space marines. How long do scouts remain scouts? Is it a time duration that they have to fulfil, or does the scout squad sergeant decide when they are ready? Also if they were placed in a scout squad then will they stay with that squad as they progress through the ranks, meaning they advance together. I think in the Uriel Ventris series, Uriel mentions that he an Passanius had known each other from training. Implying that they stayed fairly close together through out their careers. It is this story of having marines be together since implantation that I am curious about.

I also have a question about deciding where a marine gets to fight. For example after a scout becomes a space marine, is he assigned a squad or does he get to choose. Also later in his career, if he wanted to switch profession from tactical marine back to devastator, would he be able to? I understand there is the generic progression of scout>devastator>assault squad>tactical but could he go back if he wanted to, or is he forced through this chain?

Thanks for all the responses, I understand these are rather specific questions but I was just thinking more about the creation of a space marine was wondering if you guys knew any details.

Orthodox
15-12-2015, 05:08
The oldest an aspirant can be is limited by the epiphyseal union of his growth plates, which is 25 at the latest, but he would need the implants to work for a few years, so the early twenties.

These questions are not things anyone knows.

Any marine in a battle company, including in devastator and assault squads, usually has been a tactical marine in the reserves and then changed back to that squad type.


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Karhedron
15-12-2015, 09:25
I was pretty sure the upper age limit was younger than that. In the old fluff it was stated that an 18-year old would be too old for implantation as he would have almost finished growing leaving insufficient time for the implants to boost his growth.

In "Descent of Angels", one of the characters recruited from Caliban is 15 when he is selected and he notices that he is about the oldest with the ranged being about 12-15. The window seems to be that recruits must have entered puberty but not yet have approached their normal adult growth size.

ChaosTicket
15-12-2015, 10:08
Applicants generally need to be per-pubescent for the entire process to properly work.

Being a scout is a window of time to complete both the process of physical transformation and training. After that it would be reasonable to have join Devastator squads so they can better prepare for heavy combat instead of jumping to the frontlines. That doesnt mean some chapter wouldnt throw you into assault squads as soon as possible. Space Wolves and Black templars suffer particularly high casualties because of this. Assault Squads would likely be the last of the non-elite squads if the progression is linear due to the high casualty rates of melee combat.

Recruits are usually recruited in generational batches from whatever world so many of them would be familiar, though after a certain point every marine would decades or hundreds of years old and would be familiar at least on the Company level.

The overall squad organization would be based on aptitudes after a point so a marksmen wouldnt in an assault squad for example. Some chapters cross-train so the event of casualties they can operate in different roles rather than be specialized. Its not reflective in the rules as every nearly marine is treated as the same.

Scouting has become more dismissive since 4th edition as before that it was the most experience position with astartes have less equipment and protection while required to rely on skills in survival and stealth. Sending your rookies to be Rangers just feels wrong.

jareddm3
15-12-2015, 12:55
The novella, "Crimson Dawn" shows that scouts can span a fairly wide spectrum of the implantation process. Implants as early as the Occulobe and the Lyman's Ear may not be present within scouts all the way up to those who are only missing the Black Carapace. This is through a combination of rejections of certain implants and the scale of seniority across different scout squads at different points of their implantation.

mightymconeshot
15-12-2015, 13:28
Just want to point out on the age thing that Bjorn was at least an adult and probably much closer to middle age when he was turned into a Space Marine. In Horus Heresy series, probably Burning of Prospero, the original wolf chiefs/wolf guard of Russ from before the Emperor found him refused to stay behind and not join him in the crusade so the apothecaries began the process. However they had a massive mortality rate and only a handful survived. So it is possible of a person becoming a space marine at older age during the heresy. But it suffered a huge mortality rate that chapters probably don't want to accept and also probably has to do with the better understanding/less decay of the geneseed available.

Orthodox
15-12-2015, 13:52
. Assault Squads would likely be the last of the non-elite squads if the progression is linear due to the high casualty rates of melee combat.

The way an assault squad works is that they choose which enemy to fight, one that they can overwhelm, and they use jump packs to get there, that is if they don't use bikes or land speeders to get there and overwhelm them with shooting. It is safe compared to tactical squads, who normally get charged by multiple enemies and rely on shooting them all to keep from being trapped in combat with a big numerical disadvantage and no jump packs to withdraw with.


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The Black Shield
15-12-2015, 14:46
During the time of the Great Crusade they took slightly older applicants and the transformation process to becoming a fully fledged Marine was quicker, but there were more physical and psychological problems. After the Heresy the newly formed Chapters decided to take younger applicants than before and spread out the implantation process to better gauge how the applicants were responding to the implantation process both mentally and physically. For the Pre-Heresy Space Wolves, when the Emperor found Russ Russ demanded that all of his followers on Fenris become Space Marines even though many were well into adulthood. Not all of his followers implanted well and many of those worse off became the basis of the 13th Company.

Karhedron
15-12-2015, 15:30
During the GC, adults could be "upgraded" to near-marine levels through various means. Luther (Dark Angels) and Kor Phaeron (Word Bearers) are both examples of individuals who were augmented as adults. It is not clear whether this process involved gene-seed or some other means of bio-chemical enhancement.

Where is the fluff that Bjorn was already an adult when he was inducted? The old fluff described him as a Blood Claw around the outbreak of the Heresy which would imply he was still young at that point.

Keep
15-12-2015, 17:14
well GC was GC, but 40k isn't GC anymore. So the ability/knowledge/means to do this safely may have been lost at some point, which wouldnt be the first technology to have been lost since GC.

Archaon
15-12-2015, 20:25
well GC was GC, but 40k isn't GC anymore. So the ability/knowledge/means to do this safely may have been lost at some point, which wouldnt be the first technology to have been lost since GC.

Exactly, the knowledge base during the Great Crusade was well above that of the 40th millenium so they were able to produce Space Marines who were of an advanced age and not rely on blind luck, prayers and a little experience/knowledge.

As to the Scout issue.. apart from the Space Wolves, whose Scouts are Veterans with a loner streak, normal Scouts become Space Marines when they have received all implants and the Black Carapace, have sufficient enough experience and skill and an opening in one of the companies presents itself (given the job description there should aways be an opening at any given time).

As Marines operate by merit alone Scouts most likely get advanced when they are ready and pulled out of their Scout Squad, i doubt any Chapter will wait until the last member of a squad is ready as Marines are always in high demand. If some Scouts become close friends they may luck out and be promoted to the same squad but i guess the Seargents don't take requests (it's the same in our militaries, you may request to be stationed together with a friend when you both join at the same time but there's no guarantee you'll get the same posting once basic training is done).

As to Marines choosing their tactical role i guess it's up to aptitude.. if he shows great marksmanship skills and cool nerves under fire he's more likely to be assigned to an empty spot in a Devastator squad, the same applies if he's especially ferocious and skilled in close combat so he gets moved to an Assault Squad.

Marines, as any military, are not a democracy. You get put where you can perform the best and that decision is not yours unless you are a Veteran or a commanding officer at which point your requests might be heard and evaluated.

Keep
16-12-2015, 18:00
close friends they may luck out and be promoted to the same squad but i guess the Seargents don't take requests
they are all brothers... It's very likely that in a company everyone knows everyone. Besides that, battle and hardship forges you and your comrades together

Matthueycamo
16-12-2015, 18:12
As Marines operate by merit alone Scouts most likely get advanced when they are ready and pulled out of their Scout Squad, i doubt any Chapter will wait until the last member of a squad is ready as Marines are always in high demand. If some Scouts become close friends they may luck out and be promoted to the same squad but i guess the Seargents don't take requests (it's the same in our militaries, you may request to be stationed together with a friend when you both join at the same time but there's no guarantee you'll get the same posting once basic training is done).

Totally depends on the system. The British Regimental system you almost certainly will be on the same base if you join the same regiment.


Right they aren't a democracy but nor is the British Army. It's just the system that is deemed to be the best for a small profession army, one that allows friends to sign up and serve together if they join the same regiment. Part of performing the best is being with a bunch of guys you would do anything for not a bunch of guys you don't like much. I don't think it would need requesting, a good Captain would be aware of the relationships between his Marines and take this into consideration.

Keep
16-12-2015, 19:13
you dont just go to the next spacemarine recruiting office with your friend and enlist. They are individually chosen for their capabilities from a large number of candidates. It's very unlikely two initiates met before. If you have been in an army in a fighting unit which did stuff (rather then just sit around and get wasted in the evening) you'd know that you dont need to have friends to come with you, cause you will quickly make numerous new ones.

ChaosTicket
16-12-2015, 22:00
Um yes you do try to get recruited with your best friend. There's no guarantee you will succeed in all the trials a particular chapter require(or you know, survive) but if you do you all become Scouts.

A huge logic failure is that only 40% of a Chapters marines are part of a combat company. The others companies cannot operate independently because they are each specialized but at the same time its wasteful to have an entire company of assault/fire support/riflemen/scouts.

The assumption is that the non-battle companies split up, but how does that work out. 2nd Company is sent to a planet ina Strike Cruiser and somebody assigned them an extra squad of devastators from 9th company. How do the brother-captains of those reserve actually command their companies? Are there companies of 10 Devastators out there fighting and if so, why not allow players to make a 100man Devastator army?

Archaon
17-12-2015, 19:22
Non Battle companies ( with Codex Chapters i think companies 7-10) are reserve companies that are assigned as needed to fill in gaps in a battle company or strenghen them, e.g. if a company encounters enemy heavy mechanized forces they will call in additional Devastators. The company commander has the same responsibilities as one from a battle company, i.e. training his men and keeping them up to level and leading them in the field if need be.

As to a 100 man Devastator company.. in game terms it's not allowed because it would break the game and make for very one sided ones that's just about rolling dice and no tactics involved.

Retrospectus
17-12-2015, 21:46
why not allow players to make a 100man Devastator army?

unbound

words

ChaosTicket
17-12-2015, 23:05
Non Battle companies ( with Codex Chapters i think companies 7-10) are reserve companies that are assigned as needed to fill in gaps in a battle company or strenghen them, e.g. if a company encounters enemy heavy mechanized forces they will call in additional Devastators. The company commander has the same responsibilities as one from a battle company, i.e. training his men and keeping them up to level and leading them in the field if need be.

As to a 100 man Devastator company.. in game terms it's not allowed because it would break the game and make for very one sided ones that's just about rolling dice and no tactics involved.

But how does that work? battle companies are split up for months or years across the galaxy and each chapter has a limited number of Strike Cruisers. You cant just call in reinforcements. When chapters have multiple companies working together its because a bloody massive plan fro the Chapter Master and major campaign is underway like Armageddon, vraks, Cadia, and so on.

Some chapters dont even have reserve companies, breaking away from the from the Codex Astartes. Chapters can be entirely battle companies or have enlargerd companies with even greater independence such as individual companies recruiting applicants to become new astartes.

insectum7
18-12-2015, 14:55
A Strike force is often a Battle Company with elements from Reserve Companies in the same battlegroup. Fully deployed and evenly split up, you have 4x a Battle Company, backed by a Reserve company, reinforced with bits of the 1st and the 10th.

Realistically smaller elements can scoot back and forth between zone assignments using escort craft, which are smaller than a Strike Cruiser, but still ****** big. On the flip side, several companies can be deployed from a Battle Barge, in which case you may have spare Strike Cruisers.

Boris_Quarta_Jaw
22-12-2015, 10:42
As to Marines choosing their tactical role i guess it's up to aptitude.. if he shows great marksmanship skills and cool nerves under fire he's more likely to be assigned to an empty spot in a Devastator squad, the same applies if he's especially ferocious and skilled in close combat so he gets moved to an Assault Squad.

Marines, as any military, are not a democracy. You get put where you can perform the best and that decision is not yours unless you are a Veteran or a commanding officer at which point your requests might be heard and evaluated.

With such a well robust fight force such as a Space Marine Chapter I would imagine that they would want well rounded Marines. If you show a great aptitude in CC it will get marked in your service record but would still need to be cross trained in long range engagement. In a organization like a Space Marine Chapter where you serve for life it makes sense that you want all Marines under your charge to be able to complete every task. That is the most likely reason for the progression from Scout(we can all disagree with this being the proper starting point or not but where power armour is limited it makes sense to not waste it on the new guys) to Devastator, Assault then Tactical starts to make sense. Unlike today's military where they seek out specific MOS's for someone fill, from Grunt to Administration, you dont need to cross train. Why train an Admin guy to use heavy weapons when his enlistment might end in four years?

Back to the Space Marines, so you got a guy that kills stuff real good with weapon X. Great! But you might need that guy to lead a squad using weapon Y. Now what? Retrain this Marine to forget what he has been doing for longer then a normal human life time? Seems like a bad idea for a leader to thrust someone into that position. But if he fought in every possible position before a spot opened up then he can fill any gap in your lines.

I don't think what your good at effects where your going to end up. I think that by the times you have enough rank to dictate where you want to go in an organization like the Space Marines, you are too far removed from the fact that you want anything.

Lord Damocles
22-12-2015, 12:21
As to Marines choosing their tactical role i guess it's up to aptitude..
Marines go from Scout to Devastator, to Assault, to Tactical in progression (Codex: Space Marines (7th ed.), 'Tactical Squads')

Matthueycamo
22-12-2015, 16:20
With such a well robust fight force such as a Space Marine Chapter I would imagine that they would want well rounded Marines. If you show a great aptitude in CC it will get marked in your service record but would still need to be cross trained in long range engagement. In a organization like a Space Marine Chapter where you serve for life it makes sense that you want all Marines under your charge to be able to complete every task. That is the most likely reason for the progression from Scout(we can all disagree with this being the proper starting point or not but where power armour is limited it makes sense to not waste it on the new guys) to Devastator, Assault then Tactical starts to make sense.

You don't have to start in the Scouts not to have Power Armour. You could just have squads of neophytes for example, maybe two to a company excluding the 8th 9th and 10th companies. Then there is the second problem in my opinion with the whole progression line. Having Tactical last makes little sense to me, it's doing the general stuff after the more specialised tasks. I can't think why that would ever be a good idea in a military organisation, super human soldiers or not.

If you were going to train somebody to be skilled in all areas the better path I think would be Neophyte, Tactical, Devastator, Assault, Vehicle crew and then Scout if deemed worthy . Once a marine gets to the end of that progression tree they can be put where needed. All scouts should be veterans, the best not the rookies. This would then play out on the TT with them getting the sternguard profile over their current Scout profile (minus the 3+ power armour save and would alter the points cost obviously). Possibly give them BS5, but would need a good bit of play testing to see if that's too OP or not. To me that just fits what they should be, veteran marines who are the best marksmen and the best at infiltrating. Then give the current Scout profile to a new neophyte squad that's cheaper and close down it's access to sniper rifles, camo cloaks and other scoutish special rules, basically to simulate them being noobs learning their trade to becoming tactical marines.

That's just my take, others might have different ideas on how or why they should not be the starting point for training new recruits.

Tastyfish
23-12-2015, 00:13
A scout isn't a rookie though, we're talking people who've already fought in wars as skirmishers or infantrymen and proved themselves amongst the most cunning and ferocious. Each scout has undoubtedly killed enough men to need both hands to count before they enter the selection process, and will likely double that by the time the first organs are implanted and the other aspirants have been weeded out.

They they enter the most intensive training and indoctrination program humanity has come up with in 10,000+ years. After that point, they are then put to use.

These are the very best child soldiers, given the best training that can be provided and a photographic memory of every special forces training manual there is. Far cry from a new recruit to the guard or PDF - they were already amongst the best soldiers you had, before you put them in power armour. By the time they do their first mission, they'll have been at war for more years than most IG veterans.

Matthueycamo
23-12-2015, 02:22
A scout isn't a rookie though, we're talking people who've already fought in wars as skirmishers or infantrymen and proved themselves amongst the most cunning and ferocious. Each scout has undoubtedly killed enough men to need both hands to count before they enter the selection process, and will likely double that by the time the first organs are implanted and the other aspirants have been weeded out.

They they enter the most intensive training and indoctrination program humanity has come up with in 10,000+ years. After that point, they are then put to use.

These are the very best child soldiers, given the best training that can be provided and a photographic memory of every special forces training manual there is. Far cry from a new recruit to the guard or PDF - they were already amongst the best soldiers you had, before you put them in power armour. By the time they do their first mission, they'll have been at war for more years than most IG veterans.

That pre-pubescent child from a feral world is the best warrior possible on the planet obviously. The idea that such children in a world absent of firearms based on brute strength as much as skill can go around slaying adults willy nilly is ludicrous. Half the chapters recruit from worlds where most people that live on them won't even know what a gun is. Most Marines become full battle brothers by our age of majority if not before. Most won't have been born when many guard veterans were already serving. Their first mission is going to be around 14-15 probably on average if not a little before. Plenty of soldiers will have served that long or more in a PDF and the Guard.

10-14 year olds are not and never have been the best soldiers that can be found especially pre black powder which is the state a lot of recruiting worlds are in. They are used when there is nothing else. Of course they can have potential but the average adult could have floored a 12/13 year old Muhammad Ali. He had the potential to be the best Heavyweight boxer at that age, he was not close to being there. More plausible on a hive world that they could have killed many men given firearms are a great leveler but it's still unlikely to be the norm. Then you have the Blood Angels taking the most pathetic excuse for a child physically given the environment they grow up in and turn them into a Marine equal to any other physically. They are the best of their generation from where they are recruited, that's not the same as being the best at the time they are taken. They certainly won't be all conquering warriors in the vast majority of cases, they don't have the physique for it for a start and possibly the brain development either for the very youngest in those eligible to be taken to become a Marine.

In that situation, their age with the equipment they have access too any old Guardsman with a lasgun could beat most of them 99 times out of 100, they aren't the best soldiers the Imperium has before they were taken. Just follow through the logic of that, suggesting that in 40K humans physically peak before their 10th birthday. That once they turn 11 it's all downhill. That the training given out to the Imperial Guard actually makes them worse, the veterns in the Guard gain nothing from their experiences that makes them better than a child. That a 25 year old warrior will get beaten by one 10-15 years younger most of the time. It's a case of going "That sounds cool!" without thinking through the implications of what is actually being suggested here when you read things like that in the Lex or other sources.

Also only some Space marines develop Photographic memories not all. It's not close to being a given as there is no implant that guarantees it. Therefore you have a situation where you have to plan a training programme around them not developing such a memory. Even with a memory it does not teach you how to apply that knowledge to the unique situation in front of you.

So some might be ok with a sword, a few might be ok with a gun. Almost none will have any concept of modern squad tactics before they leave their feral tribe or whatever and they won't be stronger than an adult. Rookie is entirely apt. Better than a Guard veteran at the point they are first picked out by a chapter to begin training they are not. Give them a boltgun better armour, the first implants and a few months training and you have something that is or is approaching them, they still won't make brilliant scouts though.

Boris_Quarta_Jaw
23-12-2015, 09:55
As a super elite "shock troop" force why waste your most veteran men doing simple recon? These are the guys you want in the thick of it maybe turning the tide of battle, not counting enemy troops size, location and what not. I have not read a Space Marine codex in a while so I don't know what the current lore says about the scouts role on the battlefield. Now if we are talking Special Operations sure you would want veterans who know what they are doing. But if you are using Space Marines for this you must be desperate or Raven Guard.

As to the evolution from scout to tactical Marine I'm sure many chapters do it in some other order. The Codex has it laid out in a certain order because the Ultramarines found that it works best for them. I don't know if it ever gave a reason but I'm sure you can come up with one. If the end result is a well rounded Marine sure we could say that they best way to start is with a tactical squad learning a bit of everything then moving on based on what your good at. I'm sure there are Chapters that do that. But as a tactical squad and as a Marine in general its my belief that you want someone that masters each and every aspect of Marine warfare. Sergeant Assault Marine dies/gets promoted, now someone needs to fill his spot. Who is gonna fill it? The easy answer is to say someone from his squad but maybe they don't have someone ready to be a Sergeant. Sure if the entire Chapter is out and about or your back in the rear it might be easier to fill that gap, yet I would think that happens less then being deployed in a hostile war zone and you need someone to step up. If everyone is just trained on their specialties you limit your potential pool of people to fill that gap. By forcing each Marine to learn every role you eliminate that problem.

Boris_Quarta_Jaw
23-12-2015, 09:56
Double Post

The Black Shield
23-12-2015, 10:34
Number 1 reason they start out as Scouts is that they have not received all of the implants and cannot yet interface with power armor. Scouts wear carapace armor not power armor so there is no need to integrate with the armor through the Black Carapace.

Boris_Quarta_Jaw
23-12-2015, 11:01
Number 1 reason they start out as Scouts is that they have not received all of the implants and cannot yet interface with power armor. Scouts wear carapace armor not power armor so there is no need to integrate with the armor through the Black Carapace.

That is the fluff giving the game rules, not the other way around. If the lore said that scouts where super important because they are the future of the chapter, and as such get fitted with the most protective equipment known to man and get a 2+ save that's re-roll able we would be talking about why we waste that kind of gear on a new guy.

Retrospectus
23-12-2015, 17:08
scouts don't get the best armour because they're not supposed to be in a position to need it. considering how rare artificier and terminator armour is (I.E. the best protection) why waste it on the new guy who A) hasn't got the experience to make the best use of it and B) spends most of the fight out of the line of fire anyway, the best way to survive gunfire is to not get hit, hence the focus on stealth.
you give your best armour to the guys who need it the most, which means the ones in the thick of the deadliest fighting, which means your veterans

as for tacticals being at the end of progression, that's because they're expected to fill any role required by their commander. need heavy weapons fire but devastators are unavailable/dead? hand a tac squad some heavy weapons. need some close combat punch but your assaults aren't around? strap some jump packs to a tac squad. space marines are all about versatility and you can't have versatile troops if they don't have experience in every area

Matthueycamo
23-12-2015, 17:40
As a super elite "shock troop" force why waste your most veteran men doing simple recon? These are the guys you want in the thick of it maybe turning the tide of battle, not counting enemy troops size, location and what not. I have not read a Space Marine codex in a while so I don't know what the current lore says about the scouts role on the battlefield. Now if we are talking Special Operations sure you would want veterans who know what they are doing. But if you are using Space Marines for this you must be desperate or Raven Guard.

As to the evolution from scout to tactical Marine I'm sure many chapters do it in some other order. The Codex has it laid out in a certain order because the Ultramarines found that it works best for them. I don't know if it ever gave a reason but I'm sure you can come up with one. If the end result is a well rounded Marine sure we could say that they best way to start is with a tactical squad learning a bit of everything then moving on based on what your good at. I'm sure there are Chapters that do that. But as a tactical squad and as a Marine in general its my belief that you want someone that masters each and every aspect of Marine warfare. Sergeant Assault Marine dies/gets promoted, now someone needs to fill his spot. Who is gonna fill it? The easy answer is to say someone from his squad but maybe they don't have someone ready to be a Sergeant. Sure if the entire Chapter is out and about or your back in the rear it might be easier to fill that gap, yet I would think that happens less then being deployed in a hostile war zone and you need someone to step up. If everyone is just trained on their specialties you limit your potential pool of people to fill that gap. By forcing each Marine to learn every role you eliminate that problem.

Because it's not simple recon first off, it's much much more than that. Simple Recon is the sort of thing where soldiers go ahead of the main force not behind enemy lines and just watch the enermy. Scouts infiltrate, blow stuff up, take out key targets, gather intelligence, call in orbital bombardments on unsuspecting enemies behind the lines among other things. That is text book special forces. Second aysametric information is about the most important thing a military force can have, keep your own forces, intentions and plans hidden and find out the enemy's. You have an instant advantage of where to strike and how hard. Which I would say is quite important for Space Marines when swift strikes are their biggest weapon. It's one of the most important jobs, having 14/15/16 year olds do it with a max of 3 years experience and mostly not having received the full set of implants and other training is just asking for things to go wrong more than they should.

Starting in a Tactical Squad (or neophyte squad before tactical as I suggested) does not mean you don't then go through doing every job until you are considered fully trained in all aspects after. I never said that.

insectum7
24-12-2015, 00:56
It's one of the most important jobs, having 14/15/16 year olds do it with a max of 3 years experience and mostly not having received the full set of implants and other training is just asking for things to go wrong more than they should.

It should be remembered though that these are not normal adolescents. By the time they hit the field they're already bigger and stronger than any normal adult, with more adept senses and faster reflexes. They've also had several years of very intense training, and are led by a superhuman sergeant with possibly centuries of experience.

Nor do they have to start with the tough stuff, either. They can start with basic recon and advance to infiltration and demolitions as the sarge feels proper. They're going to be deployed an awful lot, and their enhanced physiology means fewer injuries are lethal, and fewer non-lethal injuries will keep them from fighting again in the future, with bionics and all.

Boris_Quarta_Jaw
24-12-2015, 10:59
Why send scout to blow stuff up? The idea behind deploying Space Marines in their (very) limited sense is as shock troops. Sure they can take out a vital generator/arms depot/HQ, but its not through stealth and guile, you're going to deep strike/drop pod a task force in there to take out the target and get out. Like I said I don't know what the current codex says about scouts but I would imagine that is a very supplementary role to the force, A.K.A scouting. They shouldn't be behind enemy lines, but hidden away reporting on troop size and movements, enemy encampments things of that nature.

As to my post talking about them getting 2++ saves it was hyperbole merely pointing out the fact that if the fluff stated as much we would be having a different discussion.

Again we can disagree to the route they should take to become full Marines, but I'm not going send my new guys to hold the line, I'll send the battle proven veterans.

Orthodox
25-12-2015, 01:09
It should be remembered though that these are not normal adolescents. By the time they hit the field they're already bigger and stronger than any normal adult, with more adept senses and faster reflexes. They've also had several years of very intense training, and are led by a superhuman sergeant with possibly centuries of experience.

Nor do they have to start with the tough stuff, either. They can start with basic recon and advance to infiltration and demolitions as the sarge feels proper. They're going to be deployed an awful lot, and their enhanced physiology means fewer injuries are lethal, and fewer non-lethal injuries will keep them from fighting again in the future, with bionics and all.

I'm pretty sure the poster you're replying to meant that scouting is so important to the chapter that they would need the most experienced troops to do it, not that they were incapable of doing some form of it.

The first of two things I have to say about that is that the official background is sort of that most scouts are very experienced. The new-style Index Astartes article from Black Library that is about Centurions claims that centurion suits are worn by eighth and ninth company marines who are experienced members, not ones who are just passing through. For a while the case has been that just because everyone starts in the high numbered companies, it doesn't mean everyone is expected to work down to battle company. If you have a five-marine scout squad, the sergeant and easil one if not all four more marine can be professional, long term scouts.


The two things I have to say about that are that scouting doesn't actually seem to be important to space marines, since they don't use scouts that much and the company usually is not full size.

Perversor
25-12-2015, 12:32
Marines go from Scout to Devastator, to Assault, to Tactical in progression (Codex: Space Marines (7th ed.), 'Tactical Squads')

This may be true for Ultramarines and most of the chapters who follow the Codex Astartes as written per Guillimian, but not applies to all chapters. As example Space Wolves use the Scout>Assault>Tactical>Devastator, as their nature make the younger be way more bold and agressive, and using the more aged and wised ones to overcome their Battlelust.

Due the Lifespan and nature of the Space marine duties we can assume this Progression routine may last something like 1-2 centuries tops, after that time the marine is well versed in all forms of warfare his chapter performs and can dedicate itself to the specific nature of the company he is finally assigned without stopping him to perform any role if the situation arises.

Imh i think Assaults or Devastator companies are formed with people who ofeten develop and train those intended roles but not always perform them unless needed.

Matthueycamo
26-12-2015, 14:57
Why send scout to blow stuff up? The idea behind deploying Space Marines in their (very) limited sense is as shock troops. Sure they can take out a vital generator/arms depot/HQ, but its not through stealth and guile, you're going to deep strike/drop pod a task force in there to take out the target and get out. Like I said I don't know what the current codex says about scouts but I would imagine that is a very supplementary role to the force, A.K.A scouting. They shouldn't be behind enemy lines, but hidden away reporting on troop size and movements, enemy encampments things of that nature.

As to my post talking about them getting 2++ saves it was hyperbole merely pointing out the fact that if the fluff stated as much we would be having a different discussion.

Again we can disagree to the route they should take to become full Marines, but I'm not going send my new guys to hold the line, I'll send the battle proven veterans.

Is it really that hard for you to see perhaps sneaking into an enemy base planting some explosives and getting out before blowing them can be more efficient and lead to less casualties on your side for the same objective than drop podding or teleporting into the middle of the enemy base and ending up in a massive firefight or brawl surrounded on all sides. Being space Marines they could very well win unless it's a massive base they are attacking but why win by losing some battle brothers when you could have won with losing nobody and a minimum application of force? Why risk your whole company as a first resort when you could risk 5 guys?

Space Marines deploy themselves most of the time. They often operate alone need to be able to do everything for themselves. So if they only ever deployed in the manner you are suggesting that would make them incredibly stupid. Warriors who have spent most of their lives fighting wars, training and learning theory and are often several hundred years old being unable to think outside of "enemy, drop pod, now." They aren't complete imbeciles though are they, they are going to make a judgement based on the situation and the information they have. Sometimes drop pod, sometimes scout, sometimes conventional deployment at a safe Landing zone, sometimes by gunship, Sometimes teleportation, sometimes infiltrate scouts first, sometimes it's necessary to launch immediate assault, sometimes attack, sometimes defence of a key location. And so on and so forth. Just because something is your main tactic does not mean it's your only tactic which you try and ram into the battle plan irrespective of the situation.

Looking at my 7th edition Codex it is very dumbed down as seems to be the general trend with GW recently when it comes to descriptive information, going from fluff to more what they do on the table. Relevant quote from their description from my 5th edn though has the following:

"Their duties are to infiltrate enemy positionsahead of the rest of their Chapter, relying on stealth ratherthan brute force to accomplish their mission objectives.

Operating behind enemy lines, Scouts set ambushes for theunwary, destroy ammunition dumps and vehicle pools, spyout the enemy's movements and gather what informationthey can about their opponent's plans. Sometimes Scouts willpounce unseen within an unsuspecting enemy camp,capturing a commander for interrogation or sabotagingequipment and supplies. Striking in silence, the Scouts' goalis to accomplish their mission and vanish before the enemyhas the chance to retaliate in force.

Scout squads are often detailed to conduct boarding actionsagainst Tyranid Hive Ships or perform seek-and-destroymissions against the Hive Mind creatures that direct Tyranidinvasions. As standard heavy bolter shells have often provenineffective against the larger Tyranid bio-monstrosities, mostChapters now issue their Scouts with specialised Hellfireammunition - heavy ceramic shells containing a virulentmutagenic acid that ruptures and burns its way throughcellular tissue. Such weaponry can bring down even arampaging Carnifex, and is no less deadly when turned uponmore mundane foes."

I have not seen anything else to refute that since, just like I said less information on their page now. Infiltrating enemy positions means you are behind enemy lines, all most everything listed there you can only do best from behind enemy lines. You can do the following which you say they should be doing from behind the lines, you can probably do it best from behind the lines too "but hidden away reporting on troop size and movements, enemy encampments things of that nature." How can you do that properly all the time unless you are behind the lines?

They would not have to hold the line necessarily if they did not start as scout they could be support to the Tacticals. Also a bit contradictory to talk about them holding the line and that they are just shock troops at the same time.

Matthueycamo
26-12-2015, 15:11
I'm pretty sure the poster you're replying to meant that scouting is so important to the chapter that they would need the most experienced troops to do it, not that they were incapable of doing some form of it.

The first of two things I have to say about that is that the official background is sort of that most scouts are very experienced. The new-style Index Astartes article from Black Library that is about Centurions claims that centurion suits are worn by eighth and ninth company marines who are experienced members, not ones who are just passing through. For a while the case has been that just because everyone starts in the high numbered companies, it doesn't mean everyone is expected to work down to battle company. If you have a five-marine scout squad, the sergeant and easil one if not all four more marine can be professional, long term scouts.


The two things I have to say about that are that scouting doesn't actually seem to be important to space marines, since they don't use scouts that much and the company usually is not full size.

Oh yeah I agree they don't have to be or won't always be novices or a uniform size. That can depend a lot on whether the chapter is facing a big rebuilding job. Crimson Fists scouts will probably pretty much all be youngsters and there will be as many as they have the Gene seed for since they are desperately trying to save their chapter from around 100 marines. Now they are up to something like 400-500 but a long way to go still. However that still does not to me make make that much sense to give your new guys that job even if only 25% of the 10th company aren't full battle brothers yet.

They seem to be as important as they need to be to do the job. Special forces are not really that important in the grand scheme of a major war nowadays, they are small and specialised for a reason not to be the main thrust. Operations that are good for moral purposes and political capital however they can't do much on their own. That does not change the requirements for those soldiers though. However much they are used when they are used that's when in my opinion you want experienced guys not noobs.

Matthueycamo
26-12-2015, 15:36
It should be remembered though that these are not normal adolescents. By the time they hit the field they're already bigger and stronger than any normal adult, with more adept senses and faster reflexes. They've also had several years of very intense training, and are led by a superhuman sergeant with possibly centuries of experience.

Nor do they have to start with the tough stuff, either. They can start with basic recon and advance to infiltration and demolitions as the sarge feels proper. They're going to be deployed an awful lot, and their enhanced physiology means fewer injuries are lethal, and fewer non-lethal injuries will keep them from fighting again in the future, with bionics and all.

Depends on the Individual Marine, not all will be at equal stages. A 16 year old can be about to start stage 6 of the process, stage 18 or any in between if one is sticking to the ideal ages for each implant. I would suggest at stage 6 they are not greatly better if at all as a package including experience bar the Ossmodula but by stage 18 certainly they are in almost all regards. But as said before by this point we are not comparing them to normal people but to the fully transformed battle brother who has all the implants, therapy, knows how to use it all properly and has much more experience. It's really irrelevant to the situation that they might be better than a normal adult by now, the important question is are they the best Marine for the job. Which in my opinion is usually no they won't be as others could do it better.

The point really is if an infiltrating mission goes wrong or is not done properly that could mean a company or whatever size of force you are sending later based on the information gathered, target destroyed or captured or being failed to be gathered being fully being wiped out. What could happen if a squad of novices does something wrong as part of a supporting role to a conventional tactical marine assault for example is not usually nearly so serious relative to comparing a few marines dying verses a total wipe out. The consequences of failure are greater in the first example.

rapaxvita
03-01-2016, 21:38
I think that scouts aren't nearly used as much for space marine deployment. Rather they are scouts to learn survivability. The whole going behind enemy lines thing sounds more like the work of the imperial assassins or other specialized forces. A space marine chapter is a strike force that goes in shock and awe style. Having newbies bust down doors isn't practical and so they deploy on the out skirts of the assault and learn how to fend for themselves without getting into the thick of it.

Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk

bittick
08-01-2016, 21:37
I don't think 14 year olds see the battlefield in a Space Marine army. The scouts that we see on the battlefield are probably guys in their 20s. Maybe one of the newer books contradicts me, but I always understood it that they go through intensive training for several years while they "grew into" their full bodies. They only become tabletop Scouts when they are nearly finished with that process.

The truth is, you don't have to be a badass veteran with 500 years of experience to be able to keep your mouth shut, plant bombs, and sneak around. Consider a Space Marine Scout to be somebody similar in skill to the non-Arnold guys from Predator, except bigger and stronger (Arnold himself, meanwhile, is the full Space Marine Sergeant assigned to the squad).

A Tactical Marine is not supposed to be just some generic grunt. He's supposed to be a one man army. So it makes sense that that is the final assignment for most of your guys. That experience is not reflected in the tabletop stats -- a Devastator marine is just as good in HTH as his more experienced Tactical brother, despite the fact that the Tac guy has been an Assault Marine and the Devastator hasn't. But the tabletop game isn't perfectly reflective of the background. Remember that most battles wouldn't be an equal fight. A "normal" fight would be 2000 points of Marines dropping on top of 500 points of defenders. You'd have 3 or 4 lance strikes, followed by half a dozen Deathwind Drop Pods, and then the next round 4 Tactical Squads would hit and mop up any survivors. That's a "normal" battle for them. The stuff we play on the table is supposed to represent the crucial turning point battles.

bound for glory
08-01-2016, 22:20
Don't know about other chapters, but i seem to remember in the book "Sons of Dorn", the 3 scouts that the book was the subject of, they were about "15 summers", so about 15 years.

insectum7
14-01-2016, 08:57
Depends on the Individual Marine, not all will be at equal stages. A 16 year old can be about to start stage 6 of the process, stage 18 or any in between if one is sticking to the ideal ages for each implant. I would suggest at stage 6 they are not greatly better if at all as a package including experience bar the Ossmodula but by stage 18 certainly they are in almost all regards. But as said before by this point we are not comparing them to normal people but to the fully transformed battle brother who has all the implants, therapy, knows how to use it all properly and has much more experience. It's really irrelevant to the situation that they might be better than a normal adult by now, the important question is are they the best Marine for the job. Which in my opinion is usually no they won't be as others could do it better.

The point really is if an infiltrating mission goes wrong or is not done properly that could mean a company or whatever size of force you are sending later based on the information gathered, target destroyed or captured or being failed to be gathered being fully being wiped out. What could happen if a squad of novices does something wrong as part of a supporting role to a conventional tactical marine assault for example is not usually nearly so serious relative to comparing a few marines dying verses a total wipe out. The consequences of failure are greater in the first example.

The squad isn't all novices, they're are under the charge of a very capable veteran. And like I alluded to earlier, the significance of the mission can be scaled to the measured capability of the squad. First missions are hanging back and sniping, smash and grab or demolitions, all of which might be non-critical to the successful deployment of everything else. More senior scouts can be doing the more important tasks.

Denny
14-01-2016, 10:06
I sometimes think we focus too much on real world examples when discussing 40K military fluff.

In our world, sneaking into enemy camp to plant explosives requires a greater degree of skill than a frontline battlefield role, and is potentially riskier due to a lack of support if something goes wrong.

However, in our world, the troops on the frontline don't have to deal with giant dinosaur/insect monsters that spit brain eating worms across the battlefield, demonic creatures that can appear from nowhere and have weapons and powers that completely violate the laws of physics, and Xenos witches that can use their evil powers to suck out their enemy's brains, or erase them from existence altogether.

Faced with the above I think I'd want the experienced troops on the frontline, and the infiltration to be handled by the less experienced youngbloods (who still have superhuman powers) under the watchful eye of an experienced veteran.

=Angel=
14-01-2016, 10:54
I sometimes think we focus too much on real world examples when discussing 40K military fluff.

In our world, sneaking into enemy camp to plant explosives requires a greater degree of skill than a frontline battlefield role, and is potentially riskier due to a lack of support if something goes wrong.

However, in our world, the troops on the frontline don't have to deal with giant dinosaur/insect monsters that spit brain eating worms across the battlefield, demonic creatures that can appear from nowhere and have weapons and powers that completely violate the laws of physics, and Xenos witches that can use their evil powers to suck out their enemy's brains, or erase them from existence altogether.

Faced with the above I think I'd want the experienced troops on the frontline, and the infiltration to be handled by the less experienced youngbloods (who still have superhuman powers) under the watchful eye of an experienced veteran.

I agree with this- with emphasis on the experienced veteran.
I submit that the veteran sarge in a scout squad could do everything scouts are supposed to do alone and unaided.
The scouts have been pumped full of organs, put through a gruelling regimen of training and brainwashing but they are blank slates- unexperienced teenagers that while they may be able to recite all 35 known classes of Eldar grav tanks have never really seen battle.

Again, keeping in mind that they are hypno-indoctrinated to obey everything he says, they follow him as he carries out these tasks, except when he delegates something like- 'report the number of Ork gargants under construction' or 'advise the brother captain on the ideal landing zone'.
They are passengers on the mission of the scout sergeant in order to learn what its like to be in the field.

I envision plenty of actions against unguarded targets too- a rebel township left undefended whilst an important promethium refinery is being fought over- a 5 man scout team sneaks in and systematically murders all the civilians, gunning them down and burning down their thatch roof cottages.

These aren't just child soldiers, they are superbly trained child soldiers lead by Batman, and they all had super soldier serum for breakfast.