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Razios
15-12-2015, 05:39
Ok, I saw the old thread about what thing you could change to the fluff and it quickly become a "Erase what you dont like" which is leftdown for me, so Im making this thread.

The rules are simple: what concept you would add to the game if you can? a diferent unit, some plotline or some aspect you wish GW explore in the setting?

Or, if there is any old concept you would like to pull in the background, how they should expand or rework the idea?

For example(and this is minor) I want to each craftworld eldar to have more...bling? or to said better more diferent details in their armour to show the diferent nature of their craftworld: like Iyanden having more bones or skull in them to show their necromantic side or Ulthuan look more esoteric look, I feel each craftworld should be a culture on their own, a diferent part of the eldar empire that have vanish long time eons ago.

ChaosTicket
15-12-2015, 08:31
This is very vague. I saw that thread.

The primary thing I would add it just a natural progression of all the storylines like warhammer 40,000 becomes warhammer 41,000. All those leftover campaigns like the 13th Black Crusade and the 3rd War for Armageddon decisively succeed or fail and major character dies.

From a more gameplay perspective I would shows factions actually improving in technology instead of pulling out technologies that are tens of thousands of years old and saying "oh we always had those". Imperial guard with carapace armor, space marines with battle tanks, eldar with heavy armor, orks that can shoot well, etc.

Bottom line is that I want things to change in the real world instead of keeping the same status quo since I was a child. I want to be able to actually choose doctrines for factions instead of them being hyper specialized so its love-or-hate them.

Allen
15-12-2015, 14:45
Another human faction could be interesting - with all the interest towards 30K it could easily be something tied to that period. An handful of planetary systems engulfed by warp storms suddendly founding themselves in calm space again, for example, only 10.000 years later while subjectively for them only 10 years passed. The culture clash between 30K imperial culture and 40K imperials could be an extremely interesting angle to explore in fluff...and imagine if a stranded company of 30K space marines from one of the loyalist Legions is factored in.

Maybe I'm too harsh (or too biased) but GW rarely managed with competence alien races, both in fluff creation and in army development...better avoid another xeno race if they're not going to do it well, and stick to what they do best - at least IMHO.

Keep
15-12-2015, 17:07
The primary thing I would add it just a natural progression of all the storylines like warhammer 40,000 becomes warhammer 41,000. All those leftover campaigns like the 13th Black Crusade and the 3rd War for Armageddon decisively succeed or fail and major character dies.
Carefull what you ask for there... it could escalate quickly as WHFB end times did.
Quick Technology Progression would mean that the entire backstory of IoM would have to be flipped around. I dont like this idea at all.


The culture clash between 30K imperial culture and 40K imperials could be an extremely interesting angle to explore in fluff Why do you think that? either they bow to new IoM Doctrine and pay tithes and follow the imperial creed or they will be declared heretic. Apart from this, the culture clash wouldnt be any different then the other worlds we already have (feudal worlds, agri worlds, hive worlds...)

Felwether
15-12-2015, 18:02
From a more gameplay perspective I would shows factions actually improving in technology instead of pulling out technologies that are tens of thousands of years old and saying "oh we always had those". Imperial guard with carapace armor, space marines with battle tanks, eldar with heavy armor, orks that can shoot well, etc.

Bottom line is that I want things to change in the real world instead of keeping the same status quo since I was a child. I want to be able to actually choose doctrines for factions instead of them being hyper specialized so its love-or-hate them.

How would homogenising the different factions and making them more similar add anything to the setting or the game? If you had Orks who could shoot as well as guard or Eldar driving around in Land Raiders or wearing terminator armour, you'd be stripping away some of the key themes of the various factions and making the 40K universe (and probably the game) pretty bland. If every faction could potentially do everything as well as the others there would't be much point in even having multiple factions, other than them looking different.

I'm actually pretty sure all of the things you've listed in your post already exist in one form or another anyway.

Guard can take carapace armour - it's just not standard issue because it costs more than the life your average IG is worth. There are still plenty of worlds that equip their regiments with it though and you can field a pretty much entirely carapace armoured force using the current codex.

Marines do have battle tanks. They're called Predators.

For Eldar heavy armour I'm not sure whether you're referring to heavily armoured infantry (because they have lots of those) or heavy tanks which they also have, in the shape of Scorpions and Cobras. Eldar AVs tend not to go above 12 because they rely on speed and manoeuvrability and fancy forcefields rather than slabs of primitive armour and also because they developed laser technology so advanced that it renders said slabs of armour pretty much obsolete.

Orks can shoot well, they just do it through the application of MORE DAKKA rather than actual skill.

Stagnation, ignorance, the knowledge that things were better in the old days and that they're about to get a whole lot worse, are key to the 40K setting.

OT: If I was to add something to the setting I'd BRING BACK THE SQUATS.

Lupe
15-12-2015, 18:03
I'd rather see the Dark Age of Technology expanded upon, see what mankind and the Eldar empire could really do at their peaks.

I'd also like to see more about the Age of Strife. That's like such a huge length of time and space to cover, that you could literally set thousands of spin-offs in and it still find something original, while not being bound to the fluff already set in place for 30K and 40K.

ChaosTicket
15-12-2015, 19:52
How would homogenising the different factions and making them more similar add anything to the setting or the game? If you had Orks who could shoot as well as guard or Eldar driving around in Land Raiders or wearing terminator armour, you'd be stripping away some of the key themes of the various factions and making the 40K universe (and probably the game) pretty bland. If every faction could potentially do everything as well as the others there would't be much point in even having multiple factions, other than them looking different.

They wouldnt be homogenized, they would have doctrines and combine arms. Is it really hard for people to make tanks? theyve been making them since 1915 in real life. It should be up to the player whether any race uses tanks, planes, infantry, artillery, and so on.

I'm actually pretty sure all of the things you've listed in your post already exist in one form or another anyway.
Only as special Forgeworld and unofficial rules

Guard can take carapace armour - it's just not standard issue because it costs more than the life your average IG is worth. There are still plenty of worlds that equip their regiments with it though and you can field a pretty much entirely carapace armoured force using the current codex.
I used those Heavy Guard regiments with carapace armor and I liked them very much. Its a different kind of playstyle when you have troops that are tough enough to maybe survive a boltgun shell

Marines do have battle tanks. They're called Predators.
Predators are repurposed rhino APCs. Theyre basically the Bradley IFV IN SPACE

For Eldar heavy armour I'm not sure whether you're referring to heavily armoured infantry (because they have lots of those) or heavy tanks which they also have, in the shape of Scorpions and Cobras. Eldar AVs tend not to go above 12 because they rely on speed and manoeuvrability and fancy forcefields rather than slabs of primitive armour and also because they developed laser technology so advanced that it renders said slabs of armour pretty much obsolete.
Eldar have heavy aspect armor in the Scorpions, dark reapers, warp spiders, and shining lances. Theyre a dying race so why would they make easy to shoot down vehicles? In real life Israel makes some of the most resilient vehicles to keep crews alive and even act as mobile APCs to pick up wounded soldiers

Orks can shoot well, they just do it through the application of MORE DAKKA rather than actual skill.
Um, no they dont. Orks rarely have enough firepower to compensate for their lack of accuracy especially on ork vehicles which are mostly glorified transports. I remember 2nd edition orks that could put Lascannons on warbuggies and theyre whole stick is that they can build any Imperial technology like plasma cannons, teleporters and Titans from scraps

Stagnation, ignorance, the knowledge that things were better in the old days and that they're about to get a whole lot worse, are key to the 40K setting.

And that is why the setting is boring. Its only gotten worse in both storyline and rules. Games-workshop needs to advance things instead of leaving hundreds of plots drifting. Kill off the Emperor, have a civil war between the Mechanicus and Ecclessiarchy, have a new subfaction of orks that make Big tanks and heavy armor and go to war with the Cleaver Orks,

OT: If I was to add something to the setting I'd BRING BACK THE SQUATS.

If the storyline never advances then what is the point of playing an edition but 2nd or 3rd?

Everything and everyone feels stupid really. Logically its impossible to NEVER have any kind of technological innovation. Orks are making battleships out of asteroids, hijacking battle tanks, super-heavy tanks, even titans, mass producing tellyportas and plasma weapons, and so on. Ingame theyre stuck in buggies and carrying cleavers.

Renegades from the Imperium can use any technology from xenos gear, heavy artillery, space battleships, armies of robots and yet they use copies of the same things from 10,000years ago. What, capturing a Land Speeder is impossible?

Eldar never die despite being a dying race in about a dozen Death Star sized ships for 10,000years and being chased by just about everyone.

Tau will never get out of the Damocles gulf because they cant use warp travel but are treated like they can actually challenge the whole Milky Way Galaxy.

Felwether
15-12-2015, 22:33
They wouldnt be homogenized, they would have doctrines and combine arms. Is it really hard for people to make tanks? theyve been making them since 1915 in real life. It should be up to the player whether any race uses tanks, planes, infantry, artillery, and so on.

Literally all of the races in the game (with the exception of possibly the poor Sororitas) have access to all of those things within their books in one form or another but they use them to different degrees and in different ways, that's what makes the different races well, different. Then of course there are lots of cool options from Forgeworld too.


Only as special Forgeworld and unofficial rules

Except for the examples I gave you in my previous post.


I used those Heavy Guard regiments with carapace armor and I liked them very much. Its a different kind of playstyle when you have troops that are tough enough to maybe survive a boltgun shell

As I said, you can do this with the current Guard codex. Just run vets with carapace armour. Although, I do agree that it would be nice to have some version of Doctrines in the next book as of all the races in the game the Imperial Guard are the most diverse.


Predators are repurposed rhino APCs. Theyre basically the Bradley IFV IN SPACE

Well no, it's based on the same chassis as the Rhino, as are all Space Marine tanks, but it is a dedicated battle tank with the armour and firepower to prove it. If anything is a Bradley IN SPACE it's the Razorback which is, y'know, and actual IFV.


Eldar have heavy aspect armor in the Scorpions, dark reapers, warp spiders, and shining lances. Theyre a dying race so why would they make easy to shoot down vehicles? In real life Israel makes some of the most resilient vehicles to keep crews alive and even act as mobile APCs to pick up wounded soldiers

An Eldar grav tank is a heavily armed vehicle, operated by a crew with centuries of experience, travelling at speeds comparable to most races aircraft and protected by energy shields and holofields - they are most certainly not easy to shoot down. Even from a gameplay perspective they're pretty tough to crack. Just look at Waveserpents.

Also, Israeli tanks can't fly.


Um, no they dont. Orks rarely have enough firepower to compensate for their lack of accuracy especially on ork vehicles which are mostly glorified transports. I remember 2nd edition orks that could put Lascannons on warbuggies and theyre whole stick is that they can build any Imperial technology like plasma cannons, teleporters and Titans from scraps

Flash Gitz, who boast a whopping BS3 if they don't move, and Lootas, who can lay down a ridiculous amount S7, beg to differ.

Ork vehicles are mostly transports because their primary purpose is to get orks into close combat, guns are just an added bonus. Orks are not human, they think and therefore fight in a completely different way.



Orks are making battleships out of asteroids, hijacking battle tanks, super-heavy tanks, even titans, mass producing tellyportas and plasma weapons, and so on. Ingame theyre stuck in buggies and carrying cleavers.

Have you read the Ork codex? There's a lot more in there than buggies and choppas. That's not even taking into account all of the extra FW stuff out there.


Renegades from the Imperium can use any technology from xenos gear, heavy artillery, space battleships, armies of robots and yet they use copies of the same things from 10,000years ago. What, capturing a Land Speeder is impossible?

Eldar never die despite being a dying race in about a dozen Death Star sized ships for 10,000years and being chased by just about everyone.

Tau will never get out of the Damocles gulf because they cant use warp travel but are treated like they can actually challenge the whole Milky Way Galaxy.

I could get into these points but it's too late here. Suffice to say I feel like you're mixing background and gameplay too much here. That way lies madness.

TheBearminator
15-12-2015, 22:51
I wanna play a human army, but I'm fed up with the Imperial stuff. I wanna add a non-imperial (real) human army, from a more democratic and humane part of the galaxy. A part of the galaxy where human lives are the most scarce resource and where no one has heard the word "blob squad" or "bobble wrap".

ChaosTicket
15-12-2015, 23:23
orks have armies made up of looted vehicles that you cant use ingame. Chaos has basically the same problem of so many background things they cant use ingame. The factions are stereotyped so they cant understand basic things.

Orks are genetically engineered race of warriors that grow from the ground with the instinctive knowledge of how to make machineguns, pickup trucks, and fight, but unreasonably after 2nd edition they only want to use cleavers.

Im definitely old.

I remember when Eldar had long range weapons instead of making kamikaze charges with black hole guns.

I remember orks with Ballistic Skill 3, heavy bolters, laser cannons, and looted imperial Leman Russ Battle tanks, Basilisk artillery, and Land Raider APCs.

I remember when Necrons were Mindless Robots bent on wiping out all life in the universe but nobody believed they existed.

Also Epic 40,000. Just every vehicle there should be in Warhammer 41,000.

TheBearminator
16-12-2015, 00:22
I remember when tin soldiers were made of tin. I remember all on your own tests that you forgot to roll nine times out of ten. I remember skimmers scattering when stunned. I remember orks looting tanks rather than just armed Rhinos. I remember when Eldar wasn't allowed to dominate every aspect of the game. I remember my grandma's rice pudding, the best on the planet.

ChaosTicket
16-12-2015, 00:48
So other than showing you are a jerkass, what was your point?

My point was that armies were less stereotypical in the past so players could choose how the race played rather than having races forced into a niches.

The other point is that Warhammer 40k needs to have anything happen to permanently change the setting. Warhammer fantasy skipped any logic and basically said every evil race unleashed their doomsday plans at the same time, the good guys were helpless, and the world ended. Games-workshop just plain lied alot by saying campaigns were won by the evil forces. Storm of Chaos(the other world ending campaign) had Chaos Lose badly, but instead GW said Chaos was winning and several Deus Ex Machina's happened without sense so Chaos would retreat.

Also if youre actually arguing with changing the setting or armies, why are you here? Youre trolling and off-topic.

TheSaylesMan
16-12-2015, 02:44
Are we talking setting or game here? Very distinct things. If we are talking game, I would love to see a Rogue Trader army book. I constantly see the desire to be human without the grimdark. While I understand the sentiment, its not going to happen. Its also against the entire theme of the game. So instead of not being grimdark, we just change the intensity of the grimdark. Instead of the typical Catholic Space Nazis grimdark, we swap that out for Capitalism Space Conquistador grimdark. The ruins plundering, banana republic creating, everything going towards the bottom line styled grim. Why? Because sometimes we need a break from the kind of humans that are okay with drowning the enemy in dead bodies. Also, Rogue Traders are cool. Great modeling opportunities in that. Rogue Traders also have free reign to have a unit selection and armory that includes the most eclectic mishmash of people and things in the galaxy. More great modeling opportunities. Perhaps maybe even get to see a plastic Naval Armsman model. Either the simply garbed Fantasy Flight Games styled ones or the giant, diving suited boarding parties I have only seen in really old art.

Setting-wise I want to see more action out of the Daemon Primarchs and clarification as to their allegiances to gods now that unaligned Daemon Princes are no longer a thing. Unless its intentionally played as a mystery. Mysteries are cool. Also Crone World Eldar! Those guys who sold their souls to other Gods to keep Slaanesh from getting it. Those guys should be ancient and powerful with far reaching schemes of their own. They also don't seem to be the kind of people to form and army of themselves so just individual characters working towards goals would be cool. Its a very much unexplored avenue that I fear we may never see because Dark Eldar already fulfill the evil Eldar quota.

ChaosTicket
16-12-2015, 03:09
M about the setting, but the setting is the basis of the gamplay. For me the Gameplay is so heavily segregated in some places Im just raging at how the game is limited by what GW can make models and money off of. Ork Tanks? Nope.

Rogue traders from what i know are basically the most ridiculous thing you have, but that doesnt mean its a bad direction. the whole Tau Schtick is that they arent Grimdark anywhere near anyone else. Really the only dark thing about them is the brainwashing Ethereals. I just dont like them gameplay wise as their squads are Space Marine small and they havent invented a machinegun like the heavy bolter yet.

The appeal of Imperial Guard is the opposite as well. Players dont take the maximum number Guardsmen and pretend their actually throwing millions of soldiers, but rather these guys are basically taking all sorts of vehicles and slaughtering Elritch Abominations from Hell. "hello Angron, taste my Basilisk Battery Barrage to your balls!". Theyre the soldiers in every science-fiction movie ever blowing up all those "advanced" aliens.

The Daemon Primarchs could each lead massive game changing campaigns and build up their own dark empires. Peter-bro could make awesome worlds of spires and advanced technology...powered by the souls of Eldar and orks.

Spell_of_Destruction
16-12-2015, 03:49
I would rather that they focused on the existing factions to be honest. Tau were an unnecessary addition as far as the setting goes (that's no slight on anyone who enjoys Tau) and don't really fit with the setting. I find Necrons to be fairly superfluous now that they're no longer the pawns of the C'Tan.

A more 'civilised' human empire doesn't really work in the context of the setting either. The way the setting has been written, without any knowledge of and protection from Chaos, such an empire would fairly quickly become corrupted from the inside. GW addressed this quite easily with the Tau by giving them a negligible warp signature.

I think most bases have already been covered as far as the setting goes.

ChaosTicket
16-12-2015, 04:49
I got this quote from Id4chan

"Allow the setting to progress and change, even if this involves killing off special characters. As wide and encompassing the 40k universe is, the cracks are growing increasingly apparent with time."

Its quite telling with the setting that the largest advancement to the storyline in 15years is BACKWARDS into the 31st Millennia.
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A different empire(it wouldnt actually be an empire with an Emperor) is a good idea if nothing more than contrast to the dying Imperium. the tau were supposed to be that, but with their weaksauce weaknesses to the warp and no warp travel their stuck in the backwater end up space with a few planets. The entire faction could be Squatted and its a waiting game to see WHEN that will happen.

1 I dont hate the Tau, but they could use some advancements to their gameplay and storyline. is Farsight ever going to return to the Tau Federation and take down those brainwashing Ethereals or what?

2 Are Orks ever going to do anything at all? They seem to only exist to be shot at. They were made by the Old Ones to fight the Necrons. That could be an awesome storyline of Orks building lots of things out a scrap to fight the ancient and few Necrons.

3 Are Chaos/Renegade Marines ever going to come out and actually so more than Troll the Imperium?

4 Can the Dark Eldar just be killed off if their only motivation is to torture?

5 When is the Imperium ever going to trigger one of those civil wars that have been building for 10,000years? Adeptus mechanicus finally saying anything that isnt machine should be destroyed or raise up the CTan Dragon. Ecclessiarchy go to war with the Mechanicus or Space marines for not worshipping the Emperor as a true god. Inquisitors finally take the Emperor off life support to see if he dies, reincarnates, lives or whatever.

6 Necrons use the Pylons to destroy the Eye of Terror.

Kakapo42
16-12-2015, 06:40
Ok, I saw the old thread about what thing you could change to the fluff and it quickly become a "Erase what you dont like" which is leftdown for me, so Im making this thread.

The rules are simple: what concept you would add to the game if you can? a diferent unit, some plotline or some aspect you wish GW explore in the setting?

Or, if there is any old concept you would like to pull in the background, how they should expand or rework the idea?


This made me think for a while. I generally find it a lot easier to identify elements I'd like to remove from 40k rather than the reverse, mostly because I think there are already plenty of cool ideas in 40k to go around, and that most of the changes I'd like to see are removing the stuff that I don't think works that well.

Nonetheless, there is one concept I would add, and that is this: a few short paragraphs at the beginning of every campaign book that clearly and explicitly states that the background material contained within is entirely a 'what if?' scenario, depicting just one possible outcome out of many that are just as likely to happen based on any number of different variables, and that it is up to you to decide what really happened.

I don't want to see big background 'advancement'. At all. I am and have always been a very strong proponent that the 40k setting is exactly that: a setting, in which various stories take place, NOT a story in its own right. I want to see the 40k universe left as an open-ended canvas that you are free to explore and develop in whatever way you want, and I want to see power over the setting given (back) to the players and hobbyists. Want to see the forces of Chaos crush Cadia once and for all and sweep through the Segmentum Solar? Want to see a gigantic WAAAAAAAGH!! tear through the Imperium in a sea of violence? Want to see the Tau take over the Galaxy? Then build up an appropriate army, play a campaign or ten with it and/or write some awesome background stories about it and make those events happen yourself.

All the official background should do is set the stage and provide some props and costumes. It should then be up to you to write a script, cast some characters and act it out.

However, I also understand that GW needs to make money and, well, campaign books sell. So that's where those few short paragraphs explicitly stating that the background material in any given campaign book is purely a speculative 'what-if?' scenario and all manner of other outcomes are just as likely depending on various factors. This provides a good compromise - GW can still sell campaign supplements, those people who want to passively consume background can treat them as true accounts of in-universe events, and the people like me who want to be able to develop the setting in their own way are free to ignore the campaign supplements.

At the same time I'd also like to see a much stronger emphasis on the 'bright noble genuinely altruistic good' side of the Tau background, with their depiction being closer to how it was in the original 3rd edition Codex: Tau. That sort of straddles the line between erasing and adding, but I thought I'd include it here since it sort of fits with your second set of criteria.

Oh and bring back Chaos Undivided. There definitely should be a Chaos Undivided.

Lord Damocles
16-12-2015, 07:05
I remember when Necrons were Mindless Robots bent on wiping out all life in the universe but nobody believed they existed.
That's great and all, but it's not what the background ever actually said.

Felwether
16-12-2015, 07:33
So other than showing you are a jerkass, what was your point?

My point was that armies were less stereotypical in the past so players could choose how the race played rather than having races forced into a niches.

The other point is that Warhammer 40k needs to have anything happen to permanently change the setting. Warhammer fantasy skipped any logic and basically said every evil race unleashed their doomsday plans at the same time, the good guys were helpless, and the world ended. Games-workshop just plain lied alot by saying campaigns were won by the evil forces. Storm of Chaos(the other world ending campaign) had Chaos Lose badly, but instead GW said Chaos was winning and several Deus Ex Machina's happened without sense so Chaos would retreat.

Also if youre actually arguing with changing the setting or armies, why are you here? Youre trolling and off-topic.

:eyebrows: Don't call me jerkass, jerkass.

I was pointing out that the examples you provided for things you would like added to the setting already exist in the setting and in the game, you seem to be ignoring huge swathes of background to suit your opinion.

It is perfectly reasonable for me to take the position that I don't feel anything needs to be added to the background.

Disagreeing with you doesn't make me a troll, either.

I strongly disagree that the races were "less stereotypical in the past". What you would call less stereotypical I would call less developed and unique.



I got this quote from Id4chan

"Allow the setting to progress and change, even if this involves killing off special characters. As wide and encompassing the 40k universe is, the cracks are growing increasingly apparent with time."

Its quite telling with the setting that the largest advancement to the storyline in 15years is BACKWARDS into the 31st Millennia.
-------------------------------
A different empire(it wouldnt actually be an empire with an Emperor) is a good idea if nothing more than contrast to the dying Imperium. the tau were supposed to be that, but with their weaksauce weaknesses to the warp and no warp travel their stuck in the backwater end up space with a few planets. The entire faction could be Squatted and its a waiting game to see WHEN that will happen.

1 I dont hate the Tau, but they could use some advancements to their gameplay and storyline. is Farsight ever going to return to the Tau Federation and take down those brainwashing Ethereals or what?

2 Are Orks ever going to do anything at all? They seem to only exist to be shot at. They were made by the Old Ones to fight the Necrons. That could be an awesome storyline of Orks building lots of things out a scrap to fight the ancient and few Necrons.

3 Are Chaos/Renegade Marines ever going to come out and actually so more than Troll the Imperium?

4 Can the Dark Eldar just be killed off if their only motivation is to torture?

5 When is the Imperium ever going to trigger one of those civil wars that have been building for 10,000years? Adeptus mechanicus finally saying anything that isnt machine should be destroyed or raise up the CTan Dragon. Ecclessiarchy go to war with the Mechanicus or Space marines for not worshipping the Emperor as a true god. Inquisitors finally take the Emperor off life support to see if he dies, reincarnates, lives or whatever.

6 Necrons use the Pylons to destroy the Eye of Terror.

I don't understand why you need to make such massive changes to the background in order to enjoy it. Changes like the ones you've listed above are just as likely to **** people off as they are to please them.

The 40K universe is a setting and it's big enough that pretty much anything you can think of could happen. I don't need GW to put that setting into a blender, potentially ruining it, to get satisfaction from it.

I have my own corner of the 40K universe where I set all of my 40K and Inquisitor games, and I like it there.

Systems have changed hands, planets have burned and Imperium-shattering plots have been hatched and foiled by a brave few. I don't need GW to kill off someone's favourite established character to get entertainment because I have my own! :)

ChaosTicket
16-12-2015, 07:38
Yes, thats what the Necrons were. they were an alien race tricked into putting the souls(but not their minds) into a series of war bots so they were the footsoldiers of the Ctan Star Gods in their war with the Old Ones and their child-races the Eldar, orks, and others.
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You have no imagination. You think taking one step into the hundreds of plot points in the warhammer 40,000 universe are "massive changes". These plot points were created by Games-workshop and then abandoned. Its been 15years of the same thing over and over again. Its not a never-ending story, its story stuck on the same page for 15years.

I can just keep bringing things up. After 13 Black Crusades and 10,000years will Abaddon ever get past Cadia? Will he die? Will a new leader take over? Will Chaos get the ball rolling? You dont have to destroy the galaxy to move it forward.

Hey you want some real world changes as examples? American revolution, French revolution, World Wars One and Two, The protestant reformation, the Crusades, go pick up a history book and more has happened in the past 100years than 10,000years of warhammer 40k. In warhammer 40k everything important has plot armor so any events are decoys. You could blow up a thousand worlds and they dont matter because theyre not important. Tyranids chew up planets all the time and it doesnt matter.

If you want nothing added in the setting, why the bloody hell are you in a place called "what would you ADD" to the setting?" Why do people come into brainstorm threads just to say nothing should change? Dear sweet rolls that trolling. You dont even have reasons why something could go in different directions. You could at least bring up some reasons why you would make different changes instead of saying 'I dont like it"..

Rogue Star
16-12-2015, 09:48
Are we talking setting or game here? Very distinct things. If we are talking game, I would love to see a Rogue Trader army book. I constantly see the desire to be human without the grimdark. While I understand the sentiment, its not going to happen. Its also against the entire theme of the game. So instead of not being grimdark, we just change the intensity of the grimdark. Instead of the typical Catholic Space Nazis grimdark, we swap that out for Capitalism Space Conquistador grimdark. The ruins plundering, banana republic creating, everything going towards the bottom line styled grim. Why? Because sometimes we need a break from the kind of humans that are okay with drowning the enemy in dead bodies. Also, Rogue Traders are cool. Great modeling opportunities in that. Rogue Traders also have free reign to have a unit selection and armory that includes the most eclectic mishmash of people and things in the galaxy. More great modeling opportunities. Perhaps maybe even get to see a plastic Naval Armsman model. Either the simply garbed Fantasy Flight Games styled ones or the giant, diving suited boarding parties I have only seen in really old art.

This is a good idea. A release the size of the Eldar Harlequins would cover it, a couple of plastic characters, like the Rogue Trader, Navigator and Boatswain, throw in a squad of plastic Armsman in the Jules Verne-esque firefighter -spacesuits, one or two vehicles and you're done. You could easily attach them to Space Marines (Crusade beyond the fringe), Imperial Guard (profitable venture), Mechanicus (Explorators), hell even the Dark Eldar (The Black Trade).

ChaosTicket
16-12-2015, 14:02
At this point, yeah lets go with Rogue Traders. It would be interesting to see some more mixed armies and interactions outside the pointlessly grim Imperium. Have Ork Pirates act as bodyguards while visiting renegade Space marines with Leman Russ tanks at your back.

However I dont think I would particularly like Rogue traders as units in game as they would be like puny Inquisitors with alot of complicated rules and bullcrap trying to mask that they suck as combat in a combat game.

Allen
16-12-2015, 15:16
This is a good idea. A release the size of the Eldar Harlequins would cover it, a couple of plastic characters, like the Rogue Trader, Navigator and Boatswain, throw in a squad of plastic Armsman in the Jules Verne-esque firefighter -spacesuits, one or two vehicles and you're done. You could easily attach them to Space Marines (Crusade beyond the fringe), Imperial Guard (profitable venture), Mechanicus (Explorators), hell even the Dark Eldar (The Black Trade).

I think that a Rogue Trader tie-in could be better developed as a skirmish level game: one of the famed "recruiting games" GW is now so desperately trying to launch on the market. You publish an easy, quick to play skirmish game with a very charachteristic background and visual appareance and develop a sizeable customer base. Then you re-release your main game with a more slim, streamlined edition (since we're daydreaming, with a decently quick army coverage in order to have the full rooster of army rulebooks avalaible after max a year) that grants your customer the ability to escalate their games from skirmish level to pitched battle level.

Then you sit back and enjoy the slow but costant flow of new customers, while developing a sensible business plan to bring back prices to a rational level and developing the first bare bones of community interaction with heavily moderated official forums. Ah, daydreams...so vivid...so much color...

Keep
16-12-2015, 18:05
I wanna play a human army, but I'm fed up with the Imperial stuff. I wanna add a non-imperial (real) human army, from a more democratic and humane part of the galaxy. A part of the galaxy where human lives are the most scarce resource and where no one has heard the word "blob squad" or "bobble wrap".
blob squads and blobarmies are only a real thing on the tabletop and in artwork... Read a good IG novel and you're going to get an army that is a lot more sensical. If that's not enough, 40k isn't for you. There is no "democratic good" thing in 40k. It's grimdark by design.

Matthueycamo
16-12-2015, 18:22
I think that a Rogue Trader tie-in could be better developed as a skirmish level game: one of the famed "recruiting games" GW is now so desperately trying to launch on the market. You publish an easy, quick to play skirmish game with a very charachteristic background and visual appareance and develop a sizeable customer base. Then you re-release your main game with a more slim, streamlined edition (since we're daydreaming, with a decently quick army coverage in order to have the full rooster of army rulebooks avalaible after max a year) that grants your customer the ability to escalate their games from skirmish level to pitched battle level.

Then you sit back and enjoy the slow but costant flow of new customers, while developing a sensible business plan to bring back prices to a rational level and developing the first bare bones of community interaction with heavily moderated official forums. Ah, daydreams...so vivid...so much color...

Your daydreams involve making 40K more like Age of Sigmarine?

TheBearminator
16-12-2015, 18:34
blob squads and blobarmies are only a real thing on the tabletop and in artwork... Read a good IG novel and you're going to get an army that is a lot more sensical. If that's not enough, 40k isn't for you. There is no "democratic good" thing in 40k. It's grimdark by design.

But I enjoy the game and I can build my army pretty much the way I like it with mechanized IG veterans and lots and lots of gear and tanks. Then I can just go into my bobble and be happy. :)

ChaosTicket
16-12-2015, 19:00
From background and gameplay the different race races arent all the same into a single stereotype. There are actually humans out there living with aliens.

There are all sorts of different Imperial Guard. There are heavy regiments where everyone has carapace armor(and isnt a stormtrooper), Guerilla regiments, Airdropped regiment, etc. The use a mixed forces of tanks, artillery, gunships, infantry, and other vehicles. Only an unimaginative player would have a full infantry Imperial Guard army, and likewise Imperial Guard have mixed forces in all the background.

The orks Klans vary as well. Deff Skulls are looters so have all sorts of tanks. Blood Axes have camouflage, are organized, and work as mercenaries for Humans.

That doesnt mean Orks are invited to the Olympics on Terra, but the galaxy isnt hopeless either.

Razios
16-12-2015, 21:07
Ok, I think people will give their idea...instead it become another pointless arguement, I will adress that but before less go with good inputs here:


I'd rather see the Dark Age of Technology expanded upon, see what mankind and the Eldar empire could really do at their peaks.


I'd also like to see more about the Age of Strife. That's like such a huge length of time and space to cover, that you could literally set thousands of spin-offs in and it still find something original, while not being bound to the fluff already set in place for 30K and 40K.

I really agree with you, in fact I have enjoy the tibits about great crusade, each time leigion found sort of civilization that is SO diferent from the imperium as whole, I admit I want to see more of crusade era imperium and the diferent planet they found in their way, even if just for how weird their are.

And about Dark age and eldar empire....yet, Something I want to know is what is the dark age of technology, not much but some details here and there woundt be bad.


I would love to see a Rogue Trader army book. I constantly see the desire to be human without the grimdark. While I understand the sentiment, its not going to happen. Its also against the entire theme of the game. So instead of not being grimdark, we just change the intensity of the grimdark. Instead of the typical Catholic Space Nazis grimdark, we swap that out for Capitalism Space Conquistador grimdark.

I have to said is the best idea so far in this thread, a Rouge trader army, conquering everything at his path....granted I think it will be a little diferent to put that in the background because their oponent are just native who cant do anything about it, one they encounter anything tought it become something else enterely.

An about primach....well, we have Angron atacking armaggedon,mortarion getting hack his heart,Perturabo destroy a Iron hand company and magnus trolling the space wolf but...yeah, its weird after a time.


This made me think for a while. I generally find it a lot easier to identify elements I'd like to remove from 40k rather than the reverse, mostly because I think there are already plenty of cool ideas in 40k to go around, and that most of the changes I'd like to see are removing the stuff that I don't think works that well.


Maybe but after a while it become tiring because it dosent really add nothing and create hostily against everything GW throw because it threating the delicate nature of their "space" I prefer to work with canon material and moving away that just pretend is not there because I dont like.

And chaos ticket and the rest....CAN you move this to another thread please? because is getting reaaaaaally off topic right now.

ChaosTicket
16-12-2015, 21:30
How is saying the setting can changed off-topic?

This is an argument because instead of adding to ideas or bringing up your own, youre trying to shoot down other peoples that dont agree with you.

If this is just "Bring back Rogue traders' Or "Add Nothing to the Setting" then just close this thread.

Razios
16-12-2015, 21:36
How is saying the setting can changed off-topic?

This is an argument because instead of adding to ideas or bringing up your own, youre trying to shoot down other peoples that dont agree with you.

If this is just "Bring back Rogue traders' Or "Add Nothing to the Setting" then just close this thread.

Because there is a diferent between add something to the setting and chaing out right, what you are argument is the old argument of "why the setting havent move already!" which is something enterly diferent, it dosent add to the setting more that it actuall move away for it to something diferent(something good, other times...)

But if you want to see exploration of that idea, read "the shape of nightmare to come" and "age of dusk" who explore very well the galaxy post 40K.

ChaosTicket
16-12-2015, 21:47
By focusing on the word "add" nothing has been accomplished here because nothing has been "added" because everything possible has been added to warhammer 40,000. Rogue Traders and all those plot points I bring up are an existing part of the setting.

There are plenty of alien races and warp creatures that exist in the background such as the Hrud and they have all covered about every base possible. For example, here are Enslavers, creatures from the warp that mind-controlled entire races way back when humans were neanderthals.

There are aliens, robots, elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, ogres, dragons, demons, spaceships, communists, lasers, space wedgies, giant robots, teleportation, etc.,

MarshalFaust
17-12-2015, 00:00
I think 40k's version of the end times should be the fracturing of the imperium. lets have abbadons 13th black crusade or even tyranids take and ravage terra. the imperium and marine chapters split into several warring factions all intent on rebuilding the imperium the way they see fit. but each not wanting the other factions to have it. you could split it along religious lines where the ecclesiarchy and the more zealous marine chapters team up, the more agnostic marine chapters in a faction and then some chapters being non chaos separatists like the ultramarines or space wolves. also lets bring back the daemon primarchs and maybe one or two of the missing loyalists like Russ or Vulkan. Big changes more reasons for marine on marine fights but doesn't completely destroy the universe a la Age of Sigmar

ChaosTicket
17-12-2015, 00:52
The End Times are the major comparison people are using to decry any advancement in the setting. warhammer 40k has a millions worlds so a reasonable amount of change is possible without nuking the setting into a reboot.

The Imperium could splinter into different factions without wiping out humanity.

The 13th Black Crusade doesnt have to destroy the galaxy, but how about take over the Cadia Sector at least? If chaos has larger territory than it may actually seem like a they are making progress after 10,000years rather than "Failbaddon 13".

Orthodox
17-12-2015, 03:46
I would like to add everything to the setting. That is, every 20 months there is a new set of subfactions, like the Badab war books that didn't particularly change background, but there were lots of new characters and places. There would never be time for generic Imperial Guard or first founding chapters, because GW would constantly be making campaign codex: Vitrians and Skull Takers vs Pyre vs Charadon Orks. You'd think that would require whole new model lines especially for IG , but maybe not.

It would also be nice to see an Imperial breakaway that is super religious, so religious that they attack regular imperials sometimes for being too secular.


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Allen
17-12-2015, 10:12
I think 40k's version of the end times should be the fracturing of the imperium. lets have abbadons 13th black crusade or even tyranids take and ravage terra. the imperium and marine chapters split into several warring factions all intent on rebuilding the imperium the way they see fit. but each not wanting the other factions to have it. you could split it along religious lines where the ecclesiarchy and the more zealous marine chapters team up, the more agnostic marine chapters in a faction and then some chapters being non chaos separatists like the ultramarines or space wolves. also lets bring back the daemon primarchs and maybe one or two of the missing loyalists like Russ or Vulkan. Big changes more reasons for marine on marine fights but doesn't completely destroy the universe a la Age of Sigmar

While I agree that on paper that sounds pretty interesting (and a much needed advance in both fluff and gameplay), such a drastic modification to the setting will be probably perceived very badly. You're modifing 40K so much that it acutually stops to be the game everyone knows becoming something radically new; we're not talking of WHFB-AoS levels of nerdrage but we could end pretty close to that mark nonethless.

On paper something like an elightened and progressive "Second Empire" centered on Ultramar and locked in a cold war with the "Hegemony of Mankind", remnants of the old Imperium run by the Ecclesiarchy, would be extremely exciting (both fluff and gameplay wise). In reality, people will cry murded saying that GW is going full AoS on 40K and there would be another fall in sales.

blackcherry
17-12-2015, 11:27
The 13th Black Crusade doesnt have to destroy the galaxy, but how about take over the Cadia Sector at least? If chaos has larger territory than it may actually seem like a they are making progress after 10,000years rather than "Failbaddon 13".

A small correction - they pretty much do as of the end of the Eye of Terror campaign - it's just that CSM by nature aren't an occupying force - they are raiders. And a single system is massive! An invasion throws things into utter anarchy (as is the way of Chaos). You then have armored hulking superhumans with poor impulse control attempting to restore a planet in anarchy to stability so they can use it - all the while fighting off the reinforcements from other sectors sent by the Imperium who don't want to lose that territory.

So change will take years - it's not a simple on and off switch.

Though perhaps adding more campaign books or background material that focuses on the small scale Imperium and it's mechanisms would be nice. The same with the Tau Empire - it would be nice to see how society itself functions, so you can get a feel for it and it's internal logic, which would allow for some expansion of it that makes the place feel more 'real'. Something like the Path Series for the Eldar and Dark Eldar was really illustrative, as they let you see part of each society that aren't focused on normally because of the focus of 40k being on warzones and conflict.

I guess what I'm asking for is the return of Inquisitor...

ChaosTicket
17-12-2015, 12:45
The Eye of Terror consist of hundreds of world controlled by Chaos forces. Those chaos military forces themselves are a mix of whatever they can get including lots of humans. they have their own forge worlds, civilians, billions of soldiers, space fleets, etc. Theyre supposed to be the the "Dark Empire" to contrast the Imperium. With ten of thousands of renegade space marines, huge fleets, and all their super technologies from the dark age and daemon-weapons, chaos should easily conquer the Cadian sector, although conquering the Galaxy is a stretch.

At worst chaos planets have daemons or the civilians are slaves. Other background materials widen the possible possibilities to reasonable levels. Those people living there can be just like Imperial Citizens. They go to Chaos Churches, go to work, produce weapons/food/electronics, and go home to their families at the end of the day. the Warhammer 40k RPGs goes into different worlds such as a high tech chaos world, but that tech is powered by souls.

The point is that the galaxy can move forward. This isnt warhammer fantasy where changes can heavily alter a continent. You have millions of the planets in the galaxy to do things to. For example the Siege of Vraks and wars of Armgeddon werent even important. The Imperium focuses so heavily on some planets that it becomes like the Vietnam War. The Damocles Gulf crusade is the one time the Imperium was actually wise to forget about the Tau and refocus the forces in other areas like against the tyranids.

I think the Imperium could try something like Battletech(at least on a small scale) where the human empire gets divided into its major factions. Adeptus Mechanicus technophiles, Ecclessiarchy fanatics, superhuman Astartes, human Imperial Guard, and so on. Those "What If?" scenarios are possible now just by having the human codexes fight.

Karegak
17-12-2015, 13:53
However I dont think I would particularly like Rogue traders as units in game as they would be like puny Inquisitors with alot of complicated rules and bullcrap trying to mask that they suck as combat in a combat game.

*giggle* Interesting that you mention the rpgs in a later post since 'suck at combat' is hardly how I'd describe a RT from the namesake rpg. On the contrary, the GM's problem is rather often that the PCs quickly become very overpowered.

MarshalFaust
17-12-2015, 17:10
The imperium already has in its background periods of civil and internecine wars. Fracturing the imperium in a timeline moving forward would alter some things drastically but it wouldn't make the universe any less recognizably 40k. I mean how many times do our games we play already break the story continuity like when my friends ultra marines fight my other friends blood Angels. At least in a fractured imperium there would be real background justification on why they might actually be fighting.


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Keep
17-12-2015, 20:50
but it wouldn't make the universe any less recognizably 40k. I mean how many times do our games we play already break the story continuity like when my friends ultra marines fight my other friends blood Angels.
The whole concept of the imperium doesnt work if it actually is destroyed and fractured. You play games with your friends because it's a freaking game. Not because it's an amazing narrative.

ChaosTicket
17-12-2015, 22:58
Ok explain how the Imperium doesnt work that way?

Its already fractured. Like many things all the narrative is that its barely holding on at best. The Ecclessiarchy and Mechanicus barely tolerate each other because they are heretics in each others eyes just for one. All the different powers fight clandestine wars with each other for anything and everything. Inquisitors basically rule the Imperium as they only answer to the Emperor. Assassins are (supposedly) loyal but have been known to attempt coup d'etats like killing all the High Lords of Terra. Some Individuals like Goge Vandire have taken over the Imperium where Horus failed resulting in in galactic civil wars. The Administratum is responsible for the bureaucracy of the Imperium and if it slips up the damage is so massive entire sectors can be wiped out. Space marines are not human anymore and have teh autonomy even with reduced numbers compared to the first founding legions to cause alot of damage. The only thing that can stop a rogue space marine chapter is several loyalist ones banding together hopefully to aid the Imperium. The Imperium itself had its forces spread out so far that relatively small numbers of rebels, orks, tau, tyranids, and so on are actually gnawing away bit by bit so its inevitable they Imperium will cease to exist.

If you dont care about the narrative of a game, why dont you play Checkers?

Razios
18-12-2015, 04:32
By focusing on the word "add" nothing has been accomplished here because nothing has been "added" because everything possible has been added to warhammer 40,000. Rogue Traders and all those plot points I bring up are an existing part of the setting.


....WHAT? this the most blatant lie ever, even with them you could still add things, it sound more and excuse to just drop off and focus in how to cut things.

Because let face it, when people said "change" they want to said "cut" or "retcon" they go out his way to pretty decide way part of lore they want out so they dont mash with their idea of the game, which become really, really tiring and not worthy after a time, so I focus more in what ideas can be add to the game and HOW, instead of what part of the background you want out.


The Eye of Terror consist of hundreds of world controlled by Chaos forces. Those chaos military forces themselves are a mix of whatever they can get including lots of humans. they have their own forge worlds, civilians, billions of soldiers, space fleets, etc. Theyre supposed to be the the "Dark Empire" to contrast the Imperium. With ten of thousands of renegade space marines, huge fleets, and all their super technologies from the dark age and daemon-weapons, chaos should easily conquer the Cadian sector, although conquering the Galaxy is a stretch.


And here you are wrong, the eye of terror is not a "Dark empire" because they are not united in the slightiest, the imperium make sure humanity stand united whatever they wanted or not(and yes, I know they blunder a LOT of times) but Chaos is even less focus in something, Abbadon is not a dark emeror, not great leader, is the biggest guy who manage for a time to remaid everyone else to not murder for 5 minutes and focus in long war against the corpse emperor, even if you have demons planets they are all rules by deamon prince and the like, who distrust anyone else to comand them, it not surprising a black crusade dosent happen that much, ITS HARD TO DO.


Those people living there can be just like Imperial Citizens. They go to Chaos Churches, go to work, produce weapons/food/electronics, and go home to their families at the end of the day. the Warhammer 40k RPGs goes into different worlds such as a high tech chaos world, but that tech is powered by souls.

Nope,Nope and even more nope, while chaos can have in theory sustanable worlds they are NOTHING compared to standar world of the imperium because from most part they live in world bound to the rules of deamons, each while diferent from others, not surprising they are not clasification for this kind of world.


I think the Imperium could try something like Battletech(at least on a small scale) where the human empire gets divided into its major factions. Adeptus Mechanicus technophiles, Ecclessiarchy fanatics, superhuman Astartes, human Imperial Guard, and so on. Those "What If?" scenarios are possible now just by having the human codexes fight.

this already happen in the fluff of regular basis, its just every faction a least manage to share the imperium as whole....kind of.


The imperium already has in its background periods of civil and internecine wars. Fracturing the imperium in a timeline moving forward would alter some things drastically but it wouldn't make the universe any less recognizably 40k.

there is breaking the imperium(civil war as in the background) and there BREAKING which is waaaaaay morre diferent, the imperium depend of each other to survive, and if you said, destroy the astronomican, BAM gone imperium and hello to age of strife 2,0 as aliens, heretic and like take each world as they please, with this almost all human faction are gone and goodbye WH40K.


The Imperium itself had its forces spread out so far that relatively small numbers of rebels, orks, tau, tyranids, and so on are actually gnawing away bit by bit so its inevitable they Imperium will cease to exist.


until the imperium focus in those threat and wipe them all, bt sheer narrative is that almost all faction still exist: chaos can always goe back to the eye, orks are infinite, necrons can respawn,etc but even if imperium crack there is a reason it will happen in 40K version of end times.

ChaosTicket
18-12-2015, 09:51
Its funny has absolutely sure you are about not wanting anything to change and you havent added anything yourself. You just fly in and try to shoot down things like you have a Flakk missile.

=Angel=
18-12-2015, 10:55
Its funny has absolutely sure you are about not wanting anything to change and you havent added anything yourself. You just fly in and try to shoot down things like you have a Flakk missile.


I agree that Chaos is not an empire. At best its a general agreement that we will kill those guys over there.
They are not united by a common religion- there's a pantheon yes, but the gods hate each other! Their followers war in the eye.

However the concept of chaos undivided, which Abaddon represents the pinacle of, which could allow an Empire such as you suggest, is being phased out in favour of semi trademark-able gods, the big 4.

My change would to see a resurgence of chaos undivided in the coming years and for chaos to get a large territory outside the eye.
You would still have raiders from the eye, coming to steal souls and substance from the Imperium to fuel their crazy daemon forges and so on, but you would also have a stable chaos undivided protectorate, sort of what happened in the Sabbat worlds.
Captured forges spit out imperial style materials with warpsmiths adding embellishments and alterations to standard patterns.

You place the local space marine chapters (the Astartes Praeses Chapters who were supposed to guard the eye) on the backfoot- a local reversal of roles.
Now the Imperium must run chaos blockades to resupply these chapters and when this fails they must raid enemy held hives and forges for the materiel to keep fighting.
Their role becomes more vital than ever as its harder to contain the enemy over such a wide front.

Karhedron
18-12-2015, 12:02
If the storyline never advances then what is the point of playing an edition but 2nd or 3rd?

Storyline doesn't have to change just because the rules do. 2nd ed was fun but would be impractical for the size of armies we field today unless you like resolving close combat on a model-by-model basis.

Anyway, you are making the classic mistake of assuming 40K is a storyline when it is actually a setting. GW don't have 40K planned out with a beginning, middle and end. It is a background against which are games are played out. GW only updates the setting when doing so allows them to bring out new models they wish to sell.

If you want to see what happens when GW really do advance the storyline then take a look at AoS. :( Personally I would rather keep the setting intact.

Lord Damocles
18-12-2015, 13:36
If you want to see what happens when GW really do advance the storyline then take a look at AoS. :( Personally I would rather keep the setting intact.
Advancements needn't (nor have they, historically) result in major upheavals.
McNiell's Forge of Mars trilogy and Sanders' Atlas Infernal, for example, are set in the 'future' (ie. post-999.M41 (events from the Eye of Terror campaign are referenced)) but they didn't turn the setting upside-down.

Similarly, minor advancement in the form of timeline progression and worldwide campaigns were the standard state of affairs for quite some time (giving us the defence of Ichar V, the coming of Hive Fleet Leviathan, the 3rd war for Armageddon, the excommunication of the Relictors, the destruction of the Blackstone Fortresses, the fall and rise of Zaraphiston, etc. etc.)

blackcherry
18-12-2015, 14:03
Advancements needn't (nor have they, historically) result in major upheavals.
McNiell's Forge of Mars trilogy and Sanders' Atlas Infernal, for example, are set in the 'future' (ie. post-999.M41 (events from the Eye of Terror campaign are referenced)) but they didn't turn the setting upside-down.

Similarly, minor advancement in the form of timeline progression and worldwide campaigns were the standard state of affairs for quite some time (giving us the defence of Ichar V, the coming of Hive Fleet Leviathan, the 3rd war for Armageddon, the excommunication of the Relictors, the destruction of the Blackstone Fortresses, the fall and rise of Zaraphiston, etc. etc.)

Weren't the Ciaphas Cain novels set post M41 too Lord Damocles? The Imperium of Man seems the same as it ever was in those books.

ChaosTicket
18-12-2015, 14:15
Its odd that in a Wishlist thread like this, people are coming in to say stop wishing.

Ok instead of arguing, anyone else have any idea? Aside from advancing the setting or increasing the Importance of Rogue Traders what ideas have been throw out?

Felwether
18-12-2015, 16:24
Its odd that in a Wishlist thread like this, people are coming in to say stop wishing.

Ok instead of arguing, anyone else have any idea? Aside from advancing the setting or increasing the Importance of Rogue Traders what ideas have been throw out?

Infighting and civil war between already exists in the Imperium but a sourcebook containing more information on these kinds of things would be cool.

I really like the idea of Rogue Traders as a playable faction too. Adding them in in the same way as Inquisitors would work.

More alien races, in more detail, as playable races would also make me happy. I actually started writing a fandex called Codex: Barghesi Dominion a while ago, I must get back to that.

Sid Snake
19-12-2015, 11:19
Basically, and to echo what's been said already, various non-Imperial or otherwise marginal human units, various different alien races that might not support a full army but could provide one or two interesting units or vehicles to be hired as mercenaries, or caught up in conflicts between more famous factions. Mining-world humans with drilling rigs used as weapons ... Interex remnants, savage humans, smugglers, Hruds, Jokaeros ... etc, etc. You could get one or two interesting codices out of this and certainly some good-looking models.

The thing about this though, is that most of the people who would be interested in that are probably making their own Hruds and Jokaeros out of greenstuff and using them in Inquisitor, Necromunda or the RPG. Those more rarefied games soak up a lot of that interest. Then there's forgeworld editions of models, where again, a lot of the more interesting ideas end up. For anything to be added to the standard WH40k game, it would have to be justifiable according to whatever standards that game currently uses; it would have to somehow have at least as much appeal to kids as a Land Raider, Tau battlesuit, etc in order to justify going into production.

ChaosTicket
19-12-2015, 18:48
Wait you want things already in the game? Im assuming you mean take the minor things in the RPGs and make them mercenaries or special characters in warhammer 40,000 combat game.

Im not against that, its just pointless for GW to produce models for things that are never going to have a codex. Like you said, anyone who wants those things already make them.

Hrud are different in that they appear as a massive freaking invasions and take over planets. They could an army, but I dont know what their technology is based on. Would they be using salvaged imperial technology, biobeasts, or what?

Rogue Star
19-12-2015, 19:37
Well Rogue Traders lead huge planetary armies so they're at least as doable on the tabletop as say, Eldar Harlequins.

Hrud could be good, but not sure how you'd represent the fact just being around them is killing all life... a sort of flipped version of the Dark Eldar's "Power from Pain" rules - instead of more suffering boosting the Dark Eldar units, the longer an enemy is around the Hrud, the weaker they get...

TheSaylesMan
19-12-2015, 23:05
So, real changes than? Not just focusing on something that hasn't been in the limelight in a while or expanding upon some throw away line? Alright, probably going to get some flak for this but sure. Forgive the length and the dramatics!

Orks need more depth. I'm sure we can all agree on that. Ork factions pretty much all boil down to what their favorite way to kill people is. Orks have little in the way of galactic significance other than being the go-to antagonist. So I want to layer more things on top of the Orks to fix that. Let's start at the beginning. Defining the origins of Orks. Not any of that being made by Old Ones to fight Necrons crap. That's crap! If they were created and why doesn't mean anything to Orkoid condition and has no real significance. It was a throw away line in the Necron Codex to make the Old Ones seem super powerful and thus the Necrons even more so when they win. I mean, confirming the Brain Boys theory. Snotlings used to be them. They were the baseline for the species that were modified. Originally, the idea was of extreme symbiotic organisms. One organisms dedicated to brain power, one to muscle mass, one to dexterity and so on. The Orks of old were the soldier caste to the Brain Boys. Grots were the laborer and craftsman caste. The whole lot of them were a galactic power that contested the Eldar before the Dark Age of Technology.

I also want to remove the mystery as to why the Brain Boys degenerated. I call it the Rise of the Orks. Much like how the Eldar Fell, the Orks Rose. The Brain Boys degenerated because they were relatively few in number compared to their servants and similarly to the Eldar, they knew no wants. They had an entire ecosystem at their beck and call that provided for their needs. Their servants did as they were told and their were untold varieties of animalistic Squigs that could be exploited for nearly any resource they needed. Where the Brain Boys differed from Eldar however was that they were content. Eldar delved into greater and greater excesses to stimulate their jaded senses. Brain Boys were content to use their intelligence to advance scientific progress. As such, they weren't interested in expansion, conquest and imperialism like the other powers were. This left a whole lot of bored Greenskins. The Orks are literally designed with combat in mind. Deny them that and they are deprived of an essential part of their development. This caused civil strife. With no consent to lash out at their enemies, the Orks turned on each other. The Brain Boys 'fixed' this by granting the Orks the authority to prosecute wars for the sake of their species. The Brain Boys also hard coded specialist training into certain Orks so that they could pay more attention to their sciences rather than needing to doctor up orks wounded in combat or fix their broken things.

This so far sounds like a simple story in which the Orks rose up and destroyed their masters. That is not the case. Orks loved Brain Boys. Brain Boys created all of the most interesting devices to use. The Orks would have loved for things to continue as they had been. Brain Boys would delegate more political powers to the Orks as the centuries went on because they only had interest in matters of science. This would accelerate the pace of technological progression, giving Orks more weapons of war. The growth was exponential. At this point in the galaxy there was a single, unified Greenskin state that existed simply as a means to launch wars on behalf of the Orks' whims and provide security to the Brain Boys so they could fulfill their function. This created an environment of unchecked drive and ambition. This is what led to the birth of Gork and Mork. The singular, two-headed god of drive, passion, growth, ambition and the will to live. Yes, I am saying that Gork and Mork are a Chaos God. Why does Gork and Mork not bother with corruption, mutation and daemonic servants? Why do Orks not act in concert with other Chaos powers when they act together? Why does Gork and Mork have no stake in the Everchosen? For two reasons. They nature of Gork and Mork did not cause it to be predatory towards the species that birthed it. It had no intent to reap and devour all of their souls. The Orks in turn did not reject the God they birthed. They were beyond pleased. Gork and Mork has no reason to concern itself with worshipers because they had a nearly limitless supply. The odd man out in this was the Brain Boys. They quite suddenly discovered the error of their ways. They had delegated more and more power to the Orks because they knew on a biological level that the Orks would always be subservient to them. No matter how much they were allowed to govern themselves, the Orks would always willingly serve as they were bred to do. If the Brain Boys ever wanted the reigns of power back they had to simply ask. Now there was a being that the Orks regarded as the perfect and obvious leader of their kind that did not have the willingness to obey Brain Boys. Obviously a problem. A problem that both the Brain Boys and Gork and Mork realized. In the end, Gork and Mork struck first. The powers of Chaos mutate. Orks may be resistant to mutation but all that was required was a single, specific mutation. It is a flaw in the Orkoid reproductive cycle. Orks were changed so that the Brain Boys that came from their spores would not be intelligent. Spores are shed from physical exertion. Brain Boys do not exert themselves much. Orks do. It was a slow and simply process. The Brain Boys grew old and died, they were replaced with greater and greater numbers of Snotlings. Brain Boys relied on Orks to propagate their species and thus went extinct. Worse than extinct even. The forces of evolution turned against them to make their once mighty species into a prey species. Its possible that Brain Boys still exist out there somewhere. They were far from powerless. However, their very nature is to spore more Orks. Orks that will spawn more Snotlings. The Brain Boys would have had to alter themselves to the point they would completely change their reproductive cycle and sever themselves from the rest of the Greenskins forever.

And now onto the future. Orkoid society is now forever changed by the influence of Gork and Mork. They war endlessly against each other. They have fluid, changing political structures bound by a single Ork forcing them to cooperate. They have the potential for their states to grow explosively but crumble without a singular leader. The perfect environment the things Gork and More want. Those unique elements that come together to form the WAAAGH that sustains them. But somebody new has come into the picture. Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka. Its not the largest or most influential Warboss to ever exist. The Beast for example led a WAAAGH large enough to nearly topple the Imperium and was said to be larger than a Dreadnought. The problem is that Ghaz is the supposed Prophet of the WAAAGH. Now across all of Orkkind, when the names of Gork and Mork are on their lips the name Ghasghkull is not far behind. All other Warlords have been strictly secular leaders. Ghaz is a spiritual one. One that is seemingly elbowing his way into the species wide Orkish dogma. This will not do. Gork and Mork look at Ghaz like a Warboss looks at an unruly Nob that is subconsciously beefing up for a confrontation. If they do nothing it might not be Gork and Mork anymore. It could be Gork and Mork and Ghazghkull. This has never happened before and could open the floodgates to a veritable Orkish pantheon of deified Warlords. Gork, being brutal, immediately wants to destroy the upstart. Mork, being cunning, wants to use Ghaz as a weapon against his eternal rival Mork. Gork, also being cunning, knows Mork's intent. Mork, also being brutal is willing to fight Gork to keep Ghaz around. And so another few decades pass with the Ghazghkull problem unsolved and his influence growing. Eventually Gork and Mork come to an agreement of sorts. Ghaz cannot continue to live and they cannot continue to squabble like children over a favorite toy. But killing Ghaz outright would put the Orks on the decline. The galaxy has never been so ripe for endless warfare as it is now. Ghaz must be replaced and the order that he is forging must revert back to the proper Orkish way. At this moment Ghaz is even conquering other species and instead of just killing and enslaving them, he is converting them. Humans in the billions now venerate Gork and Mork. Ghaz has chains of command now. He doesn't tolerate his subordinates fighting each other over miscommunication. Ghaz has administration now. Grots keep paperwork and those that wear his mark are above the casual cruelty that Orks have grown accustomed to heaping onto Grots. Ghaz is doing the seemingly impossible and forging order out of the species.

Gork and Mork work to undo all of this. Mork incites rebellion in those newfound alien works to break up Ghaz' empire. Gork empowers rival after rival to go after Ghaz with ever increasing amounts of unnatural vigor. Mork incites the Clanz to make war against each other. Gork works Squigs into unknown levels of frenzy. Eventually enough is enough. Not even the perfect, eternal enemy that the Tyranids provide is enough to keep Ghaz' empire united. All of Ghaz' time and effort is put towards quelling those who would challenge his rule. Eventually, he breaks. He is defeated by a rival and brought to his knees. Gork and Mork use this moment to make their will known. Ghaz may be alive, but they take his Green. As an act of divine punishment, the color drains from Ghaz' skin until it is nothing more than black. Green is best. All Orks know this. If Ghaz isn't properly Ork if he isn't green.

Outside forces notice this most pivotal moment in the history of the Orkoid species and make a move. Tzeentch, the Architect of Fate, has taken this moment to bring low some of the only beings that have ever been able to rival that of the Ruinous Powers. Gork and Mork is far too strong an enemy to best in open battle. Gork and Mork have underestimated the spiritual fervor that Ghaz has inspired in its' followers. Tzeentch simply has to pluck on one thread of fate. In the moment that Ghaz is beaten and black and his followers should reject him immediately, as single Ork has a change of mind. It raises it choppa and proclaims for Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka. It too is turned black. Another Ork sees this and shoots his dakka in the name of Ghazghkull and also is struck black. Orks are prone to mob mentality. The deed is done. More and more Orks that have seen Ghaz fall do not give up hope in him. They swear for their prophet and are cursed by a wrathful Gork and Mork. The first and only schism of any meaning has begun for the Orks. Black Orks against Green Orks. The sheer number of Black Orks who now see Ghazghkull as the ultimate leader of the Orks is immense. Ghaz is now the Prophet of the WAAGH but not the servant of Gork and Mork. The sudden deprival of a huge swathe of worshipers coupled with the number of non-Orkish worshippers Gork and Mork now have thanks to Ghaz changes it innately. Gork and Mork is now Gorkamorka. Or Morkagorka. Or Gorkamork. Chaos Gods are known by many names after all.

tl;dr- Gork and Mork is now a Chaos God. Now there are Gork and Mork cultists, Green Orks that are aware that it is a Chaos God, Green Orks that are ignorant and the same as always and Black Orks that obey Ghazghkull as the ultimate authority on the WAAAGH.

Rogue Star
20-12-2015, 11:23
tl;dr- Gork and Mork is now a Chaos God. Now there are Gork and Mork cultists, Green Orks that are aware that it is a Chaos God, Green Orks that are ignorant and the same as always and Black Orks that obey Ghazghkull as the ultimate authority on the WAAAGH.

Well, at least you're passionate about it, but personally I find it distracting. Don't think the Orks need depth as much as they need detail myself... a reworked, republished version of the old "Waaagh! Da Orks" and "'Ere we go!" would be appreciated...

ChaosTicket
20-12-2015, 12:21
I cant confirm how much of that backstory is your creation and how much is true(but retconned).

Gork and Mork cannot be Chaos Gods as the Chaos Gods are emotional homunculi or avatars of every race in the galaxy, Compare that to Gork and Mork which are Ork-only.
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Orks are meant as a Great enemy, as they are out of control bio-warriors without any handlers to keep them in control. Gameplay wise I really want them to regain all their guns and armor from previous editions.

Orks have been stereotyped as liking just cleavers when they were designed as combat and in 2nd edition they were actually well balanced. they wouldnt beat Space marines on a 1-1 basis but you could get twice as Orks easily.

Ork "gunner boyz" should be added considering how many guns orks have. Ork "choppa boys" could actually be the strange ones as they are crazies only liking melee combat(ala Khorne Berzerkers) instead of general combat.

TheSaylesMan
20-12-2015, 15:02
I cant confirm how much of that backstory is your creation and how much is true(but retconned).

Gork and Mork cannot be Chaos Gods as the Chaos Gods are emotional homunculi or avatars of every race in the galaxy, Compare that to Gork and Mork which are Ork-only.

Ah come on man! You are the biggest advocate for outright change in this thread! Bah, oh well. Anyway, in my defense, there's nothing to suggest a Chaos God absolutely must be born that way. Hypothetically, emotions are potentially unique from species to species. There's no reason why the shadow in the Warp that becomes a God absolutely needs to have contribution from many species so long as the one species in numerous enough to reach the critical mass. That is purely academic and actually not needed in this scenario. Ork emotions are not really unique to Orks. Their drive, passion and will to live and spread and grow isn't unique. These are some of the most basic qualities there are. I get that it doesn't act like a Chaos God actually does but I addressed that in that wall of text I put out there.

ChaosTicket
20-12-2015, 15:47
Logical change, not crack ideas.

There are all sorts of unusused plot points that are frozen because they would change the Status Quo of the game.

If you start making more gods like chaos than that means Gork is just Khorne and Gork is a watered down Tzeentch.

TheSaylesMan
20-12-2015, 18:26
If you notice my phrasing I have only ever referred to Gork and Mork in the singular. Or at the very least I tried to. Gork and Mork is a single, two headed God that constantly tears at its own flesh. Gork and Mork is a madman and a fool that constantly struggles to defeat itself. At least that is the way I choose to see it.

Its not a crack idea. Gork and Mork has always existed in a nebulous state as to what it is. Like the Chaos Gods in which it is a extramultidimensional amalgamate being existing across all points in space and time? Is it like the singular beings like the Eldar Pantheon of which some may or may not be ascendant Old Ones? We don't even really know if Gork and Mork are real in any sense and could be a simple species wide delusion of the Orks. Fists of Gork and other psychic phenomena are no proof as they could just as easily be subconsciously formed by the Weird Boy's own biases. I choose to clarify what Gork and Mork is by defining it as a Chaos God with a unique relationship with the species that is attributed to birthing it which causes it to behave in a way atypical to the other Ruinous Powers.

Sai-Lauren
20-12-2015, 19:47
Weren't the Ciaphas Cain novels set post M41 too Lord Damocles? The Imperium of Man seems the same as it ever was in those books.
They're written, printed and Amberley sticks her comments in post 13th Crusade, but all the action thus far (and given Black Library seems only to be printing Heresy stuff and nothing else, probably forever more - after all, how long's the next Gaunt's Ghosts novel been on the lists?) is pre 40999.

What I would like to see?
More on non-military parts of the Imperial - their diplomats and ambassadors, intelligence agencies and so on (and no, it's not the Inquistion, it's whatever agencies existed in the time of the Emperor and have carried on).
Crone world eldar, the Hrud, Loxatl and other races.
Non-bipedal Titans as "lesser" forms.
Return of the Squats (yes, remember, these are my choices, if you don't want them, fair enough. I do :D ) .

ChaosTicket
20-12-2015, 20:23
Gork and Mork dont really exist in 40k. In Fantasy each race has different gods that cant violate each other's boundaries, except the Chaos Gods because theyre ******s from another world.

I reread that WALL of text to be more clear and its confusing maybe contradictory. GorK and Mork would not exist if orks stopped believing in them and their religious leanings dont fit in a science-fiction setting. Eldar Gods were almost all killed(likely because Eldar stopped caring in their hedonism) and the Chaos Gods are really Eldritch Abominations from HP Lovecraft, Ghazkull isnt a prophet, hes just a pawn of the Eldar who thinks he is one. Being of a species that A becomes physically more powerful the more combat they are involved in, and B generate psychic energy the larger their numbers and more combat they see means one crazy zealot can lead a Green Crusade.

Grots should be elevated in the game. Its been long and slow but they have showed off their mechanical skills and their own kind of battle prowess by creating all kinds of vehicles and have personal monopolies on Killer Kans and Grot-tanks. i want to see the 2nd edtion version make a resurgence, where they had autoguns and nifty little outfits. From the orks Perspective grots already do the things Orks dont want, and having them improve in their role as meatshields wouldnt be terrible. Send a unit of 30-50grots with assault rifles at anything and see whether they have the orkish spine to fight or run proving grots are still wimpy gits.

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Non-bipedal Titans arent Titans. titans are (in the Adeptus mechanicus eyes') living avatars of the Machine God. Machine's in the image of Man+Metal=superior as they are mechanical and really freaking huge.

If you change them, then theyre just super-heavy tanks. Not that it wouldnt be interesting but that would make Titans no longer follow the definition, the historical allusions, and just copy other series especially Battletech which has goofy 4 legged Battlemechs.

Matthueycamo
20-12-2015, 23:49
Advancements needn't (nor have they, historically) result in major upheavals.
McNiell's Forge of Mars trilogy and Sanders' Atlas Infernal, for example, are set in the 'future' (ie. post-999.M41 (events from the Eye of Terror campaign are referenced)) but they didn't turn the setting upside-down.

Similarly, minor advancement in the form of timeline progression and worldwide campaigns were the standard state of affairs for quite some time (giving us the defence of Ichar V, the coming of Hive Fleet Leviathan, the 3rd war for Armageddon, the excommunication of the Relictors, the destruction of the Blackstone Fortresses, the fall and rise of Zaraphiston, etc. etc.)

Yeah they have a timeline progression with those events but what is actually different about the overall setting to before? There is no progression to the overall game universe story line there with any of them so far. Yeah they could do it in the future but it strikes me that all of these "advancements" have been carefully managed so far not to actually alter the overall state of the 40K universe. They give the impression of things moving along but really nothing has changed. They are new stories fitting the excising story line. New races are fit into this setting without ever upsetting the current balance it has.

I really don't think anything has advanced here. It's the same universe just different stories within a setting which don't have any effect over the direction of the setting and which is to all intents and purposes functionally stagnant. GW might make a big song and dance about these global campaigns but they don't (since I just watched the new SWs film) alter the balance of the force outside the campaigns. Just going back to the 13th crusade, the one with probably the biggest alterations. How has the meta been altered? It took a handful of worlds relative to the entire Imperium and is now trapped on those worlds by overwhelming Imperial space and air power.

Matthueycamo
20-12-2015, 23:53
Anyway, my change would be for the Tau to have a technological breakthrough that speeds up their space travel. Not to warp speeds but maybe 50-70% up from it's current 20-25. Seems to be one of the big gripes with them so changing that might make them overall sit better in the setting.

ChaosTicket
21-12-2015, 00:48
Tau unless I am mistaken still use warp travel, just an immature form. Other warp travel is basically putting a Geller Field bubble around yourself, jumping into the Immaterium, and hoping it will flow to the destination you want at the right time.

The tau Version is more like dvipping your head down for a bit and quickly coming back up without seeing the creatures around you. Its alot safer but its not nearly as deep and therefore slower. They would need to make a whole new drive system. The only other FTL drive I know about is the Necrons' and theyre not sharing.

Tyranids I have no idea. I heard they basically change their mass so they can go into hyperspace.
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It would be outrageous but it would also be a big step to change the setting by making the Imperium go into large scale civil war. there are already powerful factions and most of them having their own codexes.

Adeptus mechanicus/skitari The Transhuman/technophiles/machine Cult
Space marines The Superhumans
Ecclessiarchy/Adeptus Sororitas The Zealots
Imperial Guard The Reasonable/common folk

This wouldnt actually change much gameplay wise as humans would prefer an enemy you can trust to Xenos you cant, and of course the human faction codexes can and do fight already.

TheSaylesMan
21-12-2015, 01:18
Gork and Mork dont really exist in 40k.

There are multiple passages from multiple editions of Codex that would prove you wrong. Some of that stuff is from the perspective of the Orks and thus not really trustworthy but others are from the perspective of an omniscient narrator.


GorK and Mork would not exist if orks stopped believing in them and their religious leanings dont fit in a science-fiction setting.

That is why my story about a proposed future of the Orks involved Ghazghkull forcibly converting those he conquers to his religion. And HA! Science fiction setting? Since when has 40k ever been a science-fiction setting? Its fantasy in space. Its always been fantasy in space. The entire idea behind 40k is taking an established fantasy setting, putting into space and mashing a bunch of scifi pop culture into it. Futuristic technology isn't what makes science fiction. 40k is a fantasy setting with slight scifi themes. Its even less scifi than Star Wars and that's barely scifi at all. And since when has religious leanings not fit 40k? There are no strictly secular factions in 40k except for Tyranids. Every faction has a religion or philosophy that governs their actions. Gods, pantheons of Gods, divine mandates, veneration of ancestors, deifying real being and so on and so forth. You admit later that Orks are biologically wired for cascading psychic reactions so why on Earth would the things they believe not matter?


Ghazkull isn't a prophet, hes just a pawn of the Eldar who thinks he is one. Being of a species that A becomes physically more powerful the more combat they are involved in, and B generate psychic energy the larger their numbers and more combat they see means one crazy zealot can lead a Green Crusade.

Once again, cascading psychic effects. It doesn't matter whether or not Ghaz was actually hearing the voices of the Gods or was simply tricked into believing he did. The Orks' cascading psychic powers mean that through belief things become reality. Ghaz also leads one of the largest, most organized collections of Orks to ever exist. Do the math. Ghaz is unique in that other Warlords don't speak for the Gods. Their moral authority comes from the fact that they are the biggest and the strongest which is the longest held tradition of authority Orks have. Some Weird Boys do that, but they aren't recognized as an authority figure. Ghaz is unique in this regard.


Grots should be elevated in the game. Its been long and slow but they have showed off their mechanical skills and their own kind of battle prowess by creating all kinds of vehicles and have personal monopolies on Killer Kans and Grot-tanks. i want to see the 2nd edtion version make a resurgence, where they had autoguns and nifty little outfits. From the orks Perspective grots already do the things Orks dont want, and having them improve in their role as meatshields wouldnt be terrible. Send a unit of 30-50grots with assault rifles at anything and see whether they have the orkish spine to fight or run proving grots are still wimpy gits.

On this at least we agree. I have toyed around with designs regarding Grot equipment and making them distinct entities from Orks. I've toyed with the idea of Grots wearing proton pack looking energy weapons and Grots with gas masks and chemical weapons. Upper body strength isn't their strong point so weapons that purposefully have less recoil like energy weapons would make sense. Big Zappas exist on the table top so why not just plain zappas?

ChaosTicket
21-12-2015, 01:51
I really want to punch your Thesaurus because it apparently doesnt read that FICTION and FANTASY are synonyms.

Sure nearly every army having lasers, plasma weapons, guns, cannons, rockets, hover vehicles, walking machines the size of mountains, but because some of them have green skin or pointing ears this in Tolkien. Where's Gandalf when you need him? He could blow up the Tyranids easily.

Ok if Orks can affect gods with their psychic energy then that just means they fuel the Chaos Gods. Mork is just Khorne and Gork is Tzeentch. The chaos Gods arent restricted to certain races. theyre not the Gods of humans. Theyre not even what most people think of as gods as creator-deities. No theyre the Great Old Ones and mortal entities are specks to them. They obliterate your mind without even trying. They dont require worship or even for people to remember them. They feed off emotions on a galactic scale and not limited to a few of them but all of them. There's no way to destroy them so long as you have those emotions.

But there is one thing. Orks were never afflicted with the Nightbringer's curse so unlike other races, they dont have a sense of fear which is why they are insane by our standards. For Nurgle this means orks give no power to him even if being giant and green he can be mistaken for some ork god, they cant actually empower him. Gender pronouns arent even really appropriate because its not like they are male or female.

TheSaylesMan
21-12-2015, 02:32
Of course Orks also fuel the Chaos Gods! That has always been the case and I have not stated otherwise. You aren't telling me anything I don't know about Chaos Gods. No, Gork is not just Khorne and Mork is not just Tzeentch. That's like saying that because the followers of Slaanesh use violence that Slaanesh doesn't exist and is actually Khorne. That makes absolutely no sense. How could entities that are so intrinsically similar to each other to the point that they are constantly confused with each other actually be two Chaos Gods that share nothing in common? None of the other Chaos Gods have the intrinsic dualistic nature of Gork and Mork. Gork and Mork being one being with two states or two beings who are also one being that is constantly at war with itself represents the self-defeating nature of Chaos that turns against itself better than any other deity. Gork and Mork undeniably have traits unique to itself

I'm saying that I am changing the state of 40k by taking advantage of the nebulous nature of what Gork and Mork is and claiming that it has always been a Chaos God that has acted atypically of the other Chaos Gods because of its relationship with the species that provides the bulk of the fuel for it.

And don't even mention that Nightbringer's curse twaddle. That is absolutely ridiculous. Fear of death is a naturally occurring, selected for trait. Claiming that the Nightbringer is responsible for fear of death implies that species who's ancestors never interacted with the Nightbringer would not be afraid of death as they never inherited that trait. Its stupid and obviously false and the absolute worst kind of trying to hype up a character. Of course Orks fear death! If Orks did not fear death than they would be fearless in the tabletop, roleplaying games and video games! Intimidation would not be the basic form of Orkish diplomacy because if nobody was afraid of death by violence than Warbosses would not be able to intimidate their underlings. Grots wouldn't fear death either because their life cycle in inextricably entwined with the Orkish one and they are never apart for long. Grots are some of the most cowardly things there are.

ChaosTicket
21-12-2015, 03:04
Well all the Chaos Gods are connected. Someone practices to be a soldier and that dedication fuels Slaanesh. Fighting with those skills fuels Khorne. The death someone fuels Nurgle. And all of that was a plan by Tzeentch to fuel itself,

can you define what Mork and Gork are, their differences, or how they are different from the Chaos Gods or the actual creators of the Orks, the Old Ones??

Its contradictory that earlier you were saying orks as aliens had different emotions and now your saying they fear death like humans. Orks shoot themselves just to test out their guns.

Grots are not any more closely related to Orks than Humans are to monkeys. orks and goblins may both come from fungus, but that doesnt mean they are the same. Apes and Monkeys are different(despite what the racist Eldar say).

Jack of Blades
21-12-2015, 08:29
But there is one thing. Orks were never afflicted with the Nightbringer's curse so unlike other races, they dont have a sense of fear which is why they are insane by our standards.

Someone please tell me this lame, nonsensical piece of fluff has been retconned. That the Nightbringer instilled a fear of death which for some reason wasn't there previously is just so stupidly absurd, I don't get why the idea wasn't caught and burned alive in its conception. All living creatures with the capacity to feel have a fear of death and whatever they think brings them closer to it, that's the way life works by default. Orks have a strongly dampened and modified sense of fear because they are an engineered species. For life to have no fear of death before the Nightbringer made it so means that life would have no instinct of self-preservation which is antithetical to the very purpose of life in the first place.

Matthueycamo
21-12-2015, 09:31
Tau unless I am mistaken still use warp travel, just an immature form. Other warp travel is basically putting a Geller Field bubble around yourself, jumping into the Immaterium, and hoping it will flow to the destination you want at the right time.

The tau Version is more like dvipping your head down for a bit and quickly coming back up without seeing the creatures around you. Its alot safer but its not nearly as deep and therefore slower. They would need to make a whole new drive system. The only other FTL drive I know about is the Necrons' and theyre not sharing.

Tyranids I have no idea. I heard they basically change their mass so they can go into hyperspace.
=======================
It would be outrageous but it would also be a big step to change the setting by making the Imperium go into large scale civil war. there are already powerful factions and most of them having their own codexes.

Adeptus mechanicus/skitari The Transhuman/technophiles/machine Cult
Space marines The Superhumans
Ecclessiarchy/Adeptus Sororitas The Zealots
Imperial Guard The Reasonable/common folk

This wouldnt actually change much gameplay wise as humans would prefer an enemy you can trust to Xenos you cant, and of course the human faction codexes can and do fight already.

I have always thought of it as no. They don't enter the warp proper so it's not warp travel in what is meant by people when they say warp travel.

ChaosTicket
21-12-2015, 09:42
Why do people use the word alien if they dont know what alien actually means? Extraterrestrial and alien are different words with different meanings.

See I wonder if animals that are top of the food chain have a fear of death. If you cant be killed would you have anything to fear? Or Would elephants develop a religion to explain an afterlife?

But I have to mention NOT THE POINT. Sigh, when conversations get in areas where you dont care much, then it becomes about not abandoning a conversation rather than actual interest.

I like Orks and they are the one race where increasing their backstory makes them worse. Being genetically engineered warriors is just simple and awesome. If you go into religion and all that it just ends up "get back to the fighting!"

I would much rather see them have squads of Grots, Orks with BS 3, lascannons, missile launchers, Tanks, Super-heavy tanks, and so on.

Matthueycamo
21-12-2015, 09:52
Someone please tell me this lame, nonsensical piece of fluff has been retconned. That the Nightbringer instilled a fear of death which for some reason wasn't there previously is just so stupidly absurd, I don't get why the idea wasn't caught and burned alive in its conception. All living creatures with the capacity to feel have a fear of death and whatever they think brings them closer to it, that's the way life works by default. Orks have a strongly dampened and modified sense of fear because they are an engineered species. For life to have no fear of death before the Nightbringer made it so means that life would have no instinct of self-preservation which is antithetical to the very purpose of life in the first place.

Considering Orks release loads of spores when they are killed much more so than during their life one might say self preservation of the race is the need for some Orks to be constantly dying. Thus a fear of death could actually be opposed to Ork self-preservation as some need to be killed for them to be at their strongest. The point is that they get stronger the more they fight and aren't destroyed totally, spend time self preserving and you aren't fighting as much to get stronger or to die and reproduce even more Orks. By doing this you are self preserving the race but just not individually because of the nature of their vastly different reproductive methods. That's why animals we know, ourselves included have such senses because we and they need them to survive to reproduce. If you reproduce most upon death you don't have the need to preserve yourself to reproduce like we do. The rules of the game are thus different for Orks thus fear could be a hindrance not a help for them.

TheSaylesMan
22-12-2015, 02:29
Well all the Chaos Gods are connected. Someone practices to be a soldier and that dedication fuels Slaanesh. Fighting with those skills fuels Khorne. The death someone fuels Nurgle. And all of that was a plan by Tzeentch to fuel itself,

can you define what Mork and Gork are, their differences, or how they are different from the Chaos Gods or the actual creators of the Orks, the Old Ones??

Its contradictory that earlier you were saying orks as aliens had different emotions and now your saying they fear death like humans. Orks shoot themselves just to test out their guns.

Grots are not any more closely related to Orks than Humans are to monkeys. orks and goblins may both come from fungus, but that doesnt mean they are the same. Apes and Monkeys are different(despite what the racist Eldar say).

I don't see how the interconnected nature of the Chaos powers defends your argument that Gork is just Khorne and Gork is just Tzeentch. Unless you are trying to claim that Khorne and Tzeentch are just as similar to each other as Gork and Mork are.

Just because an alien will likely have different emotions caused by different brain chemistry that doesn't mean that they won't share some emotions or close approximations. You are confusing diminished pain and a logical lesser fear of it with no fear of death. This is incorrect. Besides, Orks have expressed fear in various media both before and after the dumb Nightbringer's curse line. I'm more than happy to discard that trash entirely.

Describe Gork and Mork now or how I see them? Because right now they are pretty nebulous. The only true defining qualities we have of them right now is that they are similar enough to be confused for each other by Orks themselves, they encourage Orks to be Orky, are constantly struggling with each other, and while one values force above manipulation and vice versa they are both equally capable of either. Orks hold a seemingly hypocritical view of mind-body dualism that I am sure I would be able to explain more eloquently if I was a student of philosophy. Gork and Mork epitomize a "living life to its fullest" mentality that in some ways mirrors the excesses of Slaanesh. Gork and Mork want Orks to go fast, fight well, build high, destroy hard, spread, breed and exploit/dominate the world around them including each other. The difference between the two is that Slaanesh's excesses serve to feed the ego and glorify the self, Gork and Mork's constant battle against each other represents the destruction of self. Slaanesh wants you to push your boundaries and become more, Gork and Mork see it as shedding past weaknesses. To transcend the pitiful creature that was. There is never enough dakka. You can never go fast enough. A fight can always be better. A Slaaneshi revels in the now. A devotee of Gork and Mork enjoys the now but only as a stepping stone to the later. There is some contention that Gork and Mork are actually Old Ones who have discovered the means of transcending their crude matter and became the Immaterial and separate from the Ruinous Powers but that is merely speculation.

And yes Grots are related more closely to Orks than we are to mokeys. To apes even. A human being is will never give birth to neither a Homo Erectus nor a Chimpanzee. When an Ork spores, those spores can result in an Ork or a Grot or more due to environmental factors. The same happens when a Grot spores. Even if that weren't true, Orks and Grots have an inextricably linked social order. You cannot find one without the other. There is absolutely no opportunity for the Nightbringer to affect a population of Grots with his 'curse' and not affect Orks as well.

ChaosTicket
22-12-2015, 03:25
First, why do you hate me enough to put up these walls of text?

Second again, Gork and Mork dont really exist because the concept of gods is different in 40k. in Fantasy these are the ancestor-dieties that created the races. In 40K theyre all some form of Eldritch abominations or dead. This makes Gork and Mork nothing because the Old Ones are literally the makes of Orks. If the universe ran on "you mind makes it real" than maybe orks could actually create gods just by believing hard enough, but that just feeds the Chaos Gods who are parasites on our reality and the reason why the Emperor of Mankind created an atheist empire. Now that is all screwed up..

Its zig-zagged whether orks have a kind of passive psychic field(then why no daemons?) that allow them to do things that dont work in reality. Maybe Red Paint makes things go faster and not the high-octane fuel, guns only work because you believe and not because orks have blueprints for guns in their brains. I find it really stupid that if orks go "bam-bam" hard enough broken guns will work.

But I ask you, what would having Gork and Mork in 40k do in terms of gameplay and why do you want them? You could open a Pandora's box in which case the Emperor of Mankind rise from his Golden Throne because followers wish it or other faith/psychic/magic in a SCIENCE universe.

Felwether
22-12-2015, 10:05
Second again, Gork and Mork dont really exist because the concept of gods is different in 40k. in Fantasy these are the ancestor-dieties that created the races. In 40K theyre all some form of Eldritch abominations or dead. This makes Gork and Mork nothing because the Old Ones are literally the makes of Orks. If the universe ran on "you mind makes it real" than maybe orks could actually create gods just by believing hard enough, but that just feeds the Chaos Gods who are parasites on our reality and the reason why the Emperor of Mankind created an atheist empire. Now that is all screwed up.

What? I don't have my ork codex to hand but Gork and Mork exist in exactly the same way as the Chaos Gods, they're also stated as being incredibly powerful warp entities. Ork emotions may fuel the Chaos Gods too but they primarily fuel Gork and Mork.

Lord Damocles
22-12-2015, 11:49
This makes Gork and Mork nothing because the Old Ones are literally the makes of Orks.
The whowhat?

'The Ork character traits have a reflection in the Warp just like the impulses and emotions of Humanity and the Eldar. These traits are made manifest in the belligerent Ork gods known as Gork and Mork.'
Codex: Orks (7th ed.), 'The Ork Gods'

ChaosTicket
22-12-2015, 15:24
Gork and Mork make no sense in 40k.

1 That line explains nothing about how they are different from the Chaos Gods or how they even survive when the Chaos Gods have infinite legions.
2 Are there ork daemons?
3 Gork and Mork wouldnt be very strong as there are more non-orks in the galaxy than orks so the Chaos Gods would be far stronger than gork and Mork.
4 What emotions do Gork and Mork embody that the Chaos Gods do not(which is all of them)
5 what makes orks so special that they can poof gods into existence?
6 Wouldnt Orks just feed the Chaos Gods like every other living being in the galaxy?

Felwether
22-12-2015, 16:21
Gork and Mork make no sense in 40k.

1 That line explains nothing about how they are different from the Chaos Gods or how they even survive when the Chaos Gods have infinite legions.

Gork and Mork survive because they draw their power from the most numerous and possibly most single minded species in the galaxy. There's a passage in the 7th Ed Ork Codex that mentions something along the lines of Gork and Mork laughing as the waves of Chaos lap around their feet.


2 Are there ork daemons?

I don't think I've ever read anything about them but either way having daemons isn't the defining feature of a god in 40K.


3 Gork and Mork wouldnt be very strong as there are more non-orks in the galaxy than orks so the Chaos Gods would be far stronger than gork and Mork.

Orks are the single most prolific and numerous species in the galaxy.


4 What emotions do Gork and Mork embody that the Chaos Gods do not(which is all of them)

They embody Orkyness. Orks do what they do because they love it, that's probably what Gork and Mork feed on.


5 what makes orks so special that they can poof gods into existence?

All of the gods, Eldar, Chaos or otherwise were created by mortals. There's a reason the background refers to Khorne as the oldest of the Chaos Gods.

The best known evidence of this would be the Eldar birthing Slaanesh through their actions prior to The Fall.


6 Wouldnt Orks just feed the Chaos Gods like every other living being in the galaxy?

They may do but they're Orks, their single minded orkyness may not provide sufficient succour to the Chaos Gods.

Felwether
22-12-2015, 17:10
Orks are prolific because of their life cycle but they are outnumbered by humans by an incomparable number. Humans control most of the Milky Way galaxy, millions of worlds, and even a type of world where the population of measured in the hundreds of billions.

That's just wrong. Orks outnumber humans. That has been an established part of the background since at least 2nd edition.


The rest of what you say it just inflating the orks. theyre interesting as a race of genetically engineered warriors. Their bases are covered in that asexually reproduce from spores, produce an entire system of classes(painboys, mekboys, weirdboys) and food(squigs, mushrooms), and have basic and advanced skills programmed into their DNA. Each ork is 'born' with the ability to make an assault rifle and more technologically inclined types(mekboys) can produce internal combustion engines vehicles from trucks, to tanks, planes, to GIANT ROBOTS AND SPACE SHIPS.

This literally has nothing to do with anything I wrote in my previous post.


If anything it just shows how you think Orks=superspecialawesome by ditching reason to excuse any failure in fluff or logic.

This... I don't even know what this is.

ChaosTicket
22-12-2015, 17:26
Yeah and orks outnumbering humans is a load of bullcrap as they cannot possibly do with such small territory in the galaxy. Humans have Hive worlds where structures piece the atmosphere and the population of those worlds are in the hundreds of billions and humans control millions of planets with many hive worlds. orks dont have those things.

What do orks have that make them outnumber humans, "take out word for it?" Gork and Mork are more poweful than the Chaos Gods because "take our word for it"?

That isnt adding to the setting, this is about whether you want orks to be SuperSpecialAwesome and the most powerful race in the galaxy regardless of common sense or logic Or more even but still an awesome race of warriors in space.

It was at least interesting about orks become religious. Crazy, but interesting.

Matthueycamo
22-12-2015, 17:57
It's pretty hard to compare for me at least when both are labeled as essentially uncountable. It might be humans, it might be orks but when there are trillions upon trillions of each does it really matter? I have personally never read anything either way.

Anyway I don't think you need billions of said race to birth a god anyway in that way. Khorne properly came into being in through people killing each other on Terra in the Middle Ages when there was at most 3/4 hundred million people on Terra. Yes his power grows the more people there are bashing each other round the face with a spiked halibut but that has no relation to his birth. He arrived when there were exponentially less people in the galaxy than there are now. Humans were inconsequential minnows back then, less important than Kroot are in the 41st millennium. Orks would be way past the critical mass needed based on that. The Gods also live through people that worship them or do whatever it is that they feed off so as long as a reasonable number of beginnings that caused the god to come about to still feed it it's not going to go away. Obviously the Chaos gods could have tried to crush them but in this scenario they have clearly failed as there are trillions of orks. If there are orks there can be Mork and Gork.

I don't particularly like most of the idea but I don't think the original idea Saylesman had can be leveled with those criticisms.

Felwether
22-12-2015, 18:04
Yeah and orks outnumbering humans is a load of bullcrap as they cannot possibly do with such small territory in the galaxy. Humans have Hive worlds where structures piece the atmosphere and the population of those worlds are in the hundreds of billions and humans control millions of planets with many hive worlds. orks dont have those things.

What do orks have that make them outnumber humans, "take out word for it?" Gork and Mork are more poweful than the Chaos Gods because "take our word for it"?

That isnt adding to the setting, this is about whether you want orks to be SuperSpecialAwesome and the most powerful race in the galaxy regardless of common sense or logic Or more even but still an awesome race of warriors in space.

It was at least interesting about orks become religious. Crazy, but interesting.

If I'm reading your post right you're refuting the canon background that tells us that orks are the most numerous species in the galaxy right? Are you saying that you'd like to change it or are you just arguing for the sake of it?

First of all where are you getting the idea that orks only have a small amount of territory? Orks exist pretty much everywhere in the galaxy. Just type Ork Empires into Google Images if you don't want to open up a GW publication and you'll see that something like half the area of Ultima Segmentum is taken up by major concentrations of orks.

In the post above you actually listed the main reasons for the orks' success as a species and those are the exact reasons they've spread to every corner of the galaxy.

The orks don't need infrastructure to increase their numbers because they bring it all with them and it occurs naturally around them. Orks are also the only species in the galaxy who's number increase exponentially in times of war and they fight constantly, either amongst themselves or against an external enemy.

You also seem to have a a few misconceptions about the Imperium. Its borders are huge but it's also thinly spread out across the galaxy - there are VAST areas within the Imperium that have never even been explored, let alone settled and it's in those areas that orks spring up. The idea that "The Imperium controls lots of planets so Orks can't" doesn't hold.

If a million planets make up the Imperium there are still hundreds of millions that don't.

This isn't about adding to the setting, this is me stating things that exist in the written background for Warhammer 40,000 that you're either getting wrong or deliberately ignoring.

ChaosTicket
22-12-2015, 18:16
Eldar were already well established as a species before humans evolved into neanderthals, so saying humans made Khorne is laughable. It took Eldar performing an empire wide orgy to make Slaanesh, so a small numbers of humans and not the Eldar making Khorne is dubious. Eldar are basically responsible for all the chaos Gods. Humans have the unfortunate luck to catch all the problems because the Eldar were reduced to almost nothing. Way to break the galaxy Eldar.

Really, how are Orks seen as so many with so few worlds? Ork still have to eat and breath. Humans have Agri-worlds to feed entire worlds, while orks dont farm. They eat mushrooms and squigs that grow from the fungus and supposedly conduct photosynthesis but you cant make something out of nothing so you need food, water, and oxygen to conduct photosynthesis. I keep pointing it out but humans control the galaxy. Humans use their galactic empire to organize Crusades every once in a while to reclaim lost sectors such as the Macharian, Sabbat Wolds, and Damocles Gulf(withdrawn to focus on Tyranids).

If orks are in the trillions then humans are in the Quadrillions or Quintillions. A hundred thousand to one on the numbers of planets humans and orks have respectively
===================================
Gods in 40k are not gods like religions use. They are horrible Eldritch Abominations from a hellish dimension that feed off emotions while trying to break the barrier between our dimension and theirs to rape our souls. Dont think Zeus and Odin, but Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath They are beings so powerful that they can destroy your mind and cannot die.

Note: humans dont control the entirety of the galaxy. the galaxy is constantly waxing and waning as the Imperium rediscovers areas again and again as data is lost to bureaucracy and Crusade fleets are formed repeatedly to take back worlds that have been traded for over 30,000years. the Imperium and humanity isnt invincible but saying that orks are is unsubstantiated bias.

Lord Damocles
22-12-2015, 18:42
...saying humans made Khorne is laughable. It took Eldar performing an empire wide orgy to make Slaanesh, so a small numbers of humans and not the Eldar making Khorne is dubious. Eldar are basically responsible for all the chaos Gods.
Well, the actual background (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?379084-Creation-of-the-Chaos-Gods&p=6886460&viewfull=1#post6886460) disagrees. So there.

Rogue Star
22-12-2015, 18:43
Really, how are Orks seen as so many with so few worlds?

... so few worlds? Ork dominated worlds outnumber the Imperium's.


Millennia ago, a probe was sent out from Earth, it's mission to voyage to the end of the galaxy. The scientists who built it hoped that it would someday return to it's place of origin after circumnavigating the galaxy. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift, and it hasn't yet begun it's return voyage (and it's uncertain if it ever will). To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who still monitor the probe, amongst the incessant battery of incoming signals many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be that wherever they travel in space, there is a good chance that the Orks will have got there first or will be arriving soon!

ChaosTicket
22-12-2015, 18:49
... so few worlds? Ork dominated worlds outnumber the Imperium's.

And there you go. Everything you have said is ork biased.

Rogue Star
22-12-2015, 18:51
And there you go. Everything you have said is ork biased.

Um, how? It's an Imperial probe?

I'm also not sure why you'd think I'd be Ork biased. I collect Tyranids and my quotes are related to Chaos. So I'm hardly screaming "Orks are the best" at the top of my lungs, but if the background says the Orks are the most widespread race throughout the galaxy, then they are.

It's worth pointing out just because the Imperium is the "largest empire in the galaxy" doesn't automically mean it controls more space and/or worlds - empires only count if they are united. You could have a human Empire of 500 worlds, then three Ork Empires of 100, 200 and 300 respectively. The humans still control the largest empire, because the other three aren't united, even if they, as a race, populate a hundred more worlds...

ChaosTicket
22-12-2015, 19:13
The Imperium is technically the ONLY Empire because there is only one Emperor(of mankind). I know its not common to think of what to name something besides empire but orks have dictatorships. Orks rule by being the most powerful, so Tyrant, Dictator, Despot, Overlord, etc. are accurate and what most of the big ork warlords have as titles.

So if orks are so much more powerful than humans why arent humans extinct? No amount of infighting will indefinitely postpone green krusades to wipe out the humies.

New idea for the setting orks wipe out humans. Like you say theyre much more powerful, so they take over the galaxy.

Felwether
22-12-2015, 19:28
The Imperium is technically the ONLY Empire because there is only one Emperor(of mankind). I know its not common to think of what to name something besides empire but orks have dictatorships. Orks rule by being the most powerful, so Tyrant, Dictator, Despot, Overlord, etc. are accurate and what most of the big ork warlords have as titles.

So if orks are so much more powerful than humans why arent humans extinct? No amount of infighting will indefinitely postpone green krusades to wipe out the humies.

New idea for the setting orks wipe out humans. Like you say theyre much more powerful, so they take over the galaxy.

Absolutely no one has said Orks are more powerful, just that there are more of them.

Rogue Star
22-12-2015, 19:29
New idea for the setting orks wipe out humans. Like you say theyre much more powerful, so they take over the galaxy.

Why would numbers equate to power? Space travel/control renders population levels largely redundent. You can cram a thousand Orks into one scrap-ship and pit it against an Imperial void-ship with a crew of a hundred... if the Imperial vessel has more firepower, longer range and because of advantages can bring in reinforcements faster... then all those numbers are just bodies drifting from a wrecked ship.

Orks don't have Navigators to take ships on longer and faster warp jumps. They don't have the Astronomicon to anchor their passage so they'd likely be way off course for prolonged travel. They don't have Astropaths to communicate over vast inter-system distances to organize attacks or defense.

Basically, the Imperium isn't being swept away in a tide of green skinned aliens because the Orks are divided, disorganized and directionless... like the background says.

ChaosTicket
22-12-2015, 19:41
How is that a different. Youre going on about how orks have more numbers, more planets, 2 gods to humans' 0, and thats not including things like orks ability to repair basically anything. Humans take hundreds of years to make Titans but orks can mass-produce them and can just repair any imperial tech to reuse.

Orks are stronger than tyranids(against humans) because they just steal all the imperial tech. every victory for an ork just means orks grow stronger. Every imperial titan destroyed is an ork gargant-in-waiting. orks also grow larger and more powerful the more they fight.

So orks are the strongest most numerous race in the galaxy. If they got their hands of the Golden throne they would put it on a truck and shoot psychic beams out of the Emperor because thats what orks do.

Go Green Kursades!
========================
Kill the Humans, End the Culture.
kill the Humans, kill them all.
Kill the Humans, Watch the perish.
Kill the Humans in their millions.

kill The Humans
Tradition shall be passed on,
through the slaughter of the humans.

kill The Humans
Gobble their hearts and other parts

kill The Humans
Then we'll all laugh and share a bath

kill The Humans
Their annihilation gives me elation

kill The Humans
take this gun and join the fun

Rogue Star
22-12-2015, 19:59
========================
Kill the Humans, End the Culture.
kill the Humans, kill them all.
Kill the Humans, Watch the perish.
Kill the Humans in their millions.

kill The Humans
Tradition shall be passed on,
through the slaughter of the humans.

kill The Humans
Gobble their hearts and other parts

kill The Humans
Then we'll all laugh and share a bath

kill The Humans
Their annihilation gives me elation

kill The Humans
take this gun and join the fun

Not bad. "'Ere we go!" is a bit easier to remember though. ;)

Matthueycamo
22-12-2015, 20:02
The Imperium is technically the ONLY Empire because there is only one Emperor(of mankind). I know its not common to think of what to name something besides empire but orks have dictatorships. Orks rule by being the most powerful, so Tyrant, Dictator, Despot, Overlord, etc. are accurate and what most of the big ork warlords have as titles.

So if orks are so much more powerful than humans why arent humans extinct? No amount of infighting will indefinitely postpone green krusades to wipe out the humies.

New idea for the setting orks wipe out humans. Like you say theyre much more powerful, so they take over the galaxy.

It's not, an Empire does not require an Emperor, just a single individual as it's head of state until death, a monarch or an oligopolistic ruling body as long as it has the required nations under control. You can even have limited forms of democracy involved, think Holy Roman Empire. That was the Empire in fantasy. You have the Tau for a start, the clue is in their name. It's an Empire because the Tau rule a number of conquered races and planets and they are ruled an oligopoly in the Ethereal council.

Orks can form them too, it's just harder for them to stay together for any length of time due to the nature of Orks. Plenty of Empires on Earth have been ruled by Tyrants and Despots etc, they aren't mutually exclusive with empires.

ChaosTicket
22-12-2015, 20:10
Whats the difference between a Kingdom and and Empire to you? empire is literal, you cant have an empire without an emperor/empress, a kingdom without a king, duchy without duke/duchess, and so on.

tau are mislabeled because you dont want to call them the tau FEDERATION that they are supposed to be because that would be far too obvious for Star Trek fans.

Many real life nations are Federal Republics, being a nation of partially self-governing territories with at least partially elected government.

Orks dont care. Orks crack heads until you find out who's the strongest and that guy tells everyone else what to do. when the biggest boss says attack, orks are already too far away to hear it. that makes them the most powerful species in the galaxy as they cannot be stopped. they literally get stronger and breed based on violence. If any ork fought long enough they would possibly get the size of Titans. Green Snowballs of Doom.

Matthueycamo
22-12-2015, 22:04
Whats the difference between a Kingdom and and Empire to you? empire is literal, you cant have an empire without an emperor/empress, a kingdom without a king, duchy without duke/duchess, and so on.

tau are mislabeled because you dont want to call them the tau FEDERATION that they are supposed to be because that would be far too obvious for Star Trek fans.

Many real life nations are Federal Republics, being a nation of partially self-governing territories with at least partially elected government.

Orks dont care. Orks crack heads until you find out who's the strongest and that guy tells everyone else what to do. when the biggest boss says attack, orks are already too far away to hear it. that makes them the most powerful species in the galaxy as they cannot be stopped. they literally get stronger and breed based on violence. If any ork fought long enough they would possibly get the size of Titans. Green Snowballs of Doom.

Arguing against a dictionary is futile. I know this whole thread is pretty much you arguing about anything and everything with everyone but surely you can take a step back and do a quick google search and looking at the results. e.g like I just did with this below for you.


empire
noun


1.
an extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state.






That also neatly answers your question, not what the difference is to me but what the difference is in fact in reality. A Kingdom is one nation ruled by a King or Queen with no other subjugated countries that have a distinct legal identity (Though you can have shared monarchs by duel kingdoms such as England and Scotland pre Union or United Kingdoms such as the UK became after Union) an Empire contains several largish nations (as well as possibly smaller ones) that are subordinate to one that rules them. Possibly debatable whether Britain still has an empire, still rules nominally over a number of territories but they don't amount to much. A Kingdom or duchy are legal entities and empire is not. It's more of an abstract concept as shown by the definition. Of course you can have Empires ruled by Emperors but it's not a necessity.

If you really want to get super academic it's got a lot to do with the differing origin of the words. Emperor comes from the Latin Imperator which predates the Empire and was a title given to a very strong and successful military leader. Kingdom is the same as a Monarchy for our purposes here. Been a few years since I did it but Monarchy comes from the ancient Greek words meaning "single ruler" or something like that. A Kingdom is just a monarchy where the title of the ruler is King or Queen.

Third French Republic, empire and republic. Being a Republic does not mean you can't have an empire either. You can be an empire without actually calling yourself an empire as well. Nor does degrees of self government mean you are a federal system. Unitary States give out autonomy too this is called devolution, it's different because devolution can be unilaterally withdrawn by the central government whilst a federation it takes the agreement of the constituent parts for the federal government to take more powers back. This leads on to Tau.

So a Federation is a situation where each of the components have an equal relationship in a federal system of governance. The Tau most definitely are not a federation, they subjugate other peoples to the greater good and are ruled by a council of the most important Tau in the most important caste. America is a federation, the Tau are a Unitary State. Don't mistake autonomy due to the problems of otherwise ruling over a space empire as it being a federation. They are all subordinate to the whims of the central Ethereal Council, they don't have set rights the Council can't violate.

Getting back to Orks. A powerful Boss forms a large group of systems under his control he has an empire. Often of course they fracture on his death though it's possible a powerful successor could take the reigns and keep the show mostly intact. Charadon for example has been around for absolutely ages which shows at least some limited ability to keep quite substantial empires together with the right conditions.

So there are tens that we know about if not more empires in the 40K universe across a number of races.

ChaosTicket
22-12-2015, 22:20
So will Orks take over the galaxy or not, because otherwise days have been wasted.

Matthueycamo
22-12-2015, 22:30
No because GW won't get rid of their cash cow.

ChaosTicket
22-12-2015, 22:34
You people made Orks boring and Invincible. All theyre lacking is being heroic, and that is subjective. So Orks are Boring Invincible Heroes.

Orks will conquer the galaxy, drive to the Warp, make the Chaos Gods cry like babies, then kick Gork and Mork in their sensitive areas.

Rogue Star
22-12-2015, 23:10
You people made Orks boring and Invincible.

I'm pretty sure GW made them like that, as that's how they've been written since early Rogue Trader - an enemy you could encounter everywhere, which was really hard to remove (the Necrons tried it, the Eldar Empire tried it, the Imperium during the Great Crusade tried it... Orks are still around), and provided a constant irritant for the other factions - all Imperial sectors can be threatened by Ork raiders, Craftworlds sometimes have to pass through their territory or protect their colonies, Chaos Space Marines clash with them on the fringes and in Space Hulks, they were the first major faction the Tau encountered, etc - but they only become a extremely dangerous threat when they launch a Waaagh!

Not sure why them having more planets than the Imperium makes them invincible... you'd think the fact they threatened Terra with destruction several times compared to Horus and the Traitor Legions' one would be more indicative. :p

TheSaylesMan
22-12-2015, 23:48
Gork and Mork make no sense in 40k.

1 That line explains nothing about how they are different from the Chaos Gods or how they even survive when the Chaos Gods have infinite legions.
2 Are there ork daemons?
3 Gork and Mork wouldnt be very strong as there are more non-orks in the galaxy than orks so the Chaos Gods would be far stronger than gork and Mork.
4 What emotions do Gork and Mork embody that the Chaos Gods do not(which is all of them)
5 what makes orks so special that they can poof gods into existence?
6 Wouldnt Orks just feed the Chaos Gods like every other living being in the galaxy?

There's been a lot said after this, but this is what I want to focus on.

1. It is my opinion that that Gork and Mork is a Chaos God. Or at the very least should be a Chaos God.
2. There could be Gork and Mork Daemons should Gork and Mork desired them.
3. Just because Orks are the ones that feed Gork and Mork because they experience those drives and emotions the strongest does not mean that other species cannot feel the same or similar emotions that would feed Gork and Mork. Just like how Orks feed the other Chaos Gods, other species would feed Gork and Mork.
4. I think I went into decent enough detail as to what I see Gork and Mork as embodying and being fed by. Drive and ambition at its most basic. Just like how Tzeentch technically is partly empowered by hope it is still a cosmic horror. Hell, I would see Gork and Mork as the closest thing to the God of Life we are going to get.
5. The sane thing that makes Eldar special enough to poof gods into existence.
6. Think I went over this already but once more just in case. Yes, they would feed the other Chaos Gods. But Gork and Mork as a the shared psychic reflection of the Orkish psyche, emotion, souls and worship in the Warp is in my opinion a Chaos God as well. So they would feed the others for the same reason they would feed Gork and Mork.

And I know that this isn't included in what I have quoted but you later claimed that this vision of Orks is boring. I want it on the record that I love Orks and that Orks were my first army from when I was twelve or something. They are wonderfully, morbidly funny. At the same time, Ork personalities are simple. They don't fight for anything but themselves. Its just hard to make any kind of compelling Orkish character because Orks are shallow. I want actual, ideological differences between Orks that motivate them to sometimes do other things than fighting to be the biggest, or fighting to own the snazziest gun, or fighting to prove that choppas are better than shootas. Their background is serviceable but at the same time it robs them of their potential agency. One perspective of their origins makes them hard-wired to certain behaviors and gives them little reason to deviate from very particular archetypes. That is the "warrior thralls of the Old Ones in The War in the Heavens" theory. I kinda hate it. I fell in love with Orks because they are a species of adrenaline junkie hooligans lightly dusted with some of the maddest geniuses of the galaxy. That theory forces them into a very rigid set of behaviors because that is literally what they were created to do.

That is what I find boring. And shallow

ChaosTicket
23-12-2015, 00:15
Orks can be boring because a number of factors.

#1 they are according to you(and GW) the most numerous race in galaxy, and dont do jack.
#2 They can build, scavenge, and hijack any technology, frequently human technology, and yet they never win anything significant.
#3 Orks have no system of politics so theyre all considered warriors. Even Klingons have other things besides warriors.
#4 politics can be boring so #3 may not be a bad thing
#5 Ghazkull has stolen the spotlight from every other ork warlord including Nazdreg "the smart one".
#6 Orks dont have tanks, armor, accurate shooting units, etc.

In gameplay I want well balanced forces that I choose to run strtegically. All armies should have shared ideas but not exact copies. Each race would have different tanks, artillery, jump packs, and this would create the theme of the army. Orks for example would have an army using crude technology like diesel or steampunk.

There are idealogical differences in each of the Klans as well as non-klans like freebooterz, but that has been swept under the rug. All orks are the same now. Compare this to the Snakebitez that are Luddite compared to the Deff Skulls that are heavy scavengers and builders of technology.

Rogue Star
23-12-2015, 01:07
And I know that this isn't included in what I have quoted but you later claimed that this vision of Orks is boring. I want it on the record that I love Orks and that Orks were my first army from when I was twelve or something. They are wonderfully, morbidly funny. At the same time, Ork personalities are simple. They don't fight for anything but themselves. Its just hard to make any kind of compelling Orkish character because Orks are shallow. I want actual, ideological differences between Orks that motivate them to sometimes do other things than fighting to be the biggest, or fighting to own the snazziest gun, or fighting to prove that choppas are better than shootas. Their background is serviceable but at the same time it robs them of their potential agency. One perspective of their origins makes them hard-wired to certain behaviors and gives them little reason to deviate from very particular archetypes. That is the "warrior thralls of the Old Ones in The War in the Heavens" theory. I kinda hate it. I fell in love with Orks because they are a species of adrenaline junkie hooligans lightly dusted with some of the maddest geniuses of the galaxy. That theory forces them into a very rigid set of behaviors because that is literally what they were created to do.

Well the original origin story of the Orks was that a race (snotlings) developed with a symbiotic relationship with fungus, and eating a certain strain of fungi increased their intelligence, which later created a servant race (Grots) and warrior race (Orks) to harvest the fungus... unfortunately the Orks eventually started to question why they were harvesting the stuff, and sat down and ate it. All of it. It barely made a blip on the Orks but that was basically the end of the "Brain boyz" which regressed to the Snotlings they are today... frankly I prefer the "Warrior race for the War in Heaven" even if I think that bit of background could be handled better...

Mellow
23-12-2015, 08:30
I would add Replicators. Because that's what 40k needs, another hopelessly superior "species" to add more dispair.

I would also have Terra engulfed by warp storms. Whether that be on the surface or just entirely around its orbit I'm not sure.

WarsmithGarathor94
25-12-2015, 19:52
Here's what I'd add
The traitor Legions have broken out of the eye. The word bearers have ground the Ultramarines and their successors to borderline extinction with the exception of calgar sicarius and tiguirus who are all handed over to fulgrim.
Honsou and his boys are trolling the hell out of the Grey Knights
The Iron Warriors wipe out the tau

ChaosTicket
25-12-2015, 20:07
Here's what I'd add
The traitor Legions have broken out of the eye. The word bearers have ground the Ultramarines and their successors to borderline extinction with the exception of calgar sicarius and tiguirus who are all handed over to fulgrim.
Honsou and his boys are trolling the hell out of the Grey Knights
The Iron Warriors wipe out the tau

Not arguing with you, but asking why those choices? Could Word Bearers actually defeat 200+ Chapters by this point?

Inquisitor Kallus
25-12-2015, 20:25
Im afraid they are correct Chaosticket. The Orks outnumber all the other races (though not combined) and in the background it says that if they were ever to become united and organized they would be humanities greatest threat

In regard to this...


#1 they are according to you(and GW) the most numerous race in galaxy, and dont do jack.
#2 They can build, scavenge, and hijack any technology, frequently human technology, and yet they never win anything significant.
#3 Orks have no system of politics so theyre all considered warriors. Even Klingons have other things besides warriors.
#4 politics can be boring so #3 may not be a bad thing
#5 Ghazkull has stolen the spotlight from every other ork warlord including Nazdreg "the smart one".
#6 Orks dont have tanks, armor, accurate shooting units, etc.


#1 They do, they are probably the one race that is constantly at war with others
#3 All Orks can fight, but you have Mekboyz, Painboyz and Weirdboyz who have different roles and are more than just 'warriors'. Generally everything they do is geared towards trying to be better and fighting
#6 Orks have tanks, Battlewagons, looted vehicles, Skullhammas, Gibletgrindas and many more. Look under the Battlewagon entry and you will see a number of old epic names used. Orks have armour, light, Eavy and MEga armour. Orks dont need to be particularly accurate when they have massed firepower

ChaosTicket
25-12-2015, 22:07
Im afraid they are correct Chaosticket. The Orks outnumber all the other races (though not combined) and in the background it says that if they were ever to become united and organized they would be humanities greatest threat

In regard to this..


#1 They do, they are probably the one race that is constantly at war with others
#3 All Orks can fight, but you have Mekboyz, Painboyz and Weirdboyz who have different roles and are more than just 'warriors'. Generally everything they do is geared towards trying to be better and fighting
#6 Orks have tanks, Battlewagons, looted vehicles, Skullhammas, Gibletgrindas and many more. Look under the Battlewagon entry and you will see a number of old epic names used. Orks have armour, light, Eavy and MEga armour. Orks dont need to be particularly accurate when they have massed firepower

#1 Orks fight each other but they grow stronger by fighting and when they unite in a WAAAGH! krusade theyre all certified badass with alot of experience instead of conscript with a smidgeon of training like Imperial Guard. thats not including that 100% of orks can fighting while the Imperium has maybe 5% or less of its as soldiers.
#6 Orks do have some powerful vehicles, but those are Forge World rather than Codex units. Battlewagons in the codex are just glorified transports/wannabee land Raiders. Forge world has rules to turn them into a tank with a 60" Battle cannon. Looted vehicles havent been allowed in the rules since 3rd edition. The Ork tanks are heavy vehicles in the Forge World books.

Ork infantry armor is rare. Just to wear karapace armor Ork boys take a 67% increase in cost. Who would take that over more boyz? Mega Nobs take everything I dont like about Terminators and makes them worse. They cant shoot a barn, are really expensive and SLOW.

Their massed firepower is rare. On vehicles this is especially apparent when you have Big Shootas at BS2 when equivalent units in other armies have Lascannons and heavy bolters(which Orks actually had in 2nd edition). Orks Boys, lootas, and tankbustas are pretty much the only units good at shooting and only because you have alot of them. Any ork vehicle without Blast weapons isnt going to hit anything.

Inquisitor Kallus
26-12-2015, 00:34
You said Orks DONT have tanks, armour....

They do. It doesnt matter what the cost is when you are saying that they don't have access to them. Pricey things doesn't mean they don't have the option to take these things.

I regularly take Ork Nobs in Eavy armour, I find it pretty effective when paired up with FNP against basic weapon fire such as boltguns and shuriken catapults etc. I find it more effective than taking mega nobz as I get more of them and can stick them in a battlewagon. No one is saying the Ork dex is great

Also the Looted wagon was in WD as a purchasable unit


Id definitely add Exodites in, there has been very little fluff about them, and I think theyd make a really unique army

ChaosTicket
26-12-2015, 01:09
Ok GOOD tanks and armor. Happy Mr literal?

Games-workshop strives to make armies "unique" which really means pigeonholing armies into a narrow space and anything I see about fixing them into a well rounded force comes from Forge World or my imagination...

GW wants orks to have just light buggies, transports, and dreadnoughts. They get can get bigger but they dont actually become anything else.

Forge World is basically there to do the fixing by giving orks tanks, blast weapons, and such. Orks still lack looted Imperial Guard and Space marine vehicles though. Who wouldnt want orkified leman russ tanks?

Rogue Star
26-12-2015, 02:40
Ok GOOD tanks and armor. Happy Mr literal?

Games-workshop strives to make armies "unique" which really means pigeonholing armies into a narrow space and anything I see about fixing them into a well rounded force comes from Forge World or my imagination...

GW wants orks to have just light buggies, transports, and dreadnoughts. They get can get bigger but they dont actually become anything else.

Forge World is basically there to do the fixing by giving orks tanks, blast weapons, and such. Orks still lack looted Imperial Guard and Space marine vehicles though. Who wouldnt want orkified leman russ tanks?

Well GW wants each race to have weaknesses, if they could do 'everything' then every faction would play exactly the same.

ChaosTicket
26-12-2015, 02:51
Uh no just because you have similar things that doesnt make them identical. Is the T-99 the same as the M1a2 abrams? is the Ork trukk the same as the Eldar Wave Serpent?

Even the basic idea of the Orks is Quantity over quality at least in regards to infantry. In terms of over things not so much. If every non-blast weapon on a vehicle had its rate of fire doubled then it woulkd be quantity . Back in 2nd edition orks have Bolt weapons too. The difference was Space marine could fire twice if they stood still to other races firing once.

Its especially apparent how the "evil" races are focused around melee over shooting. So good guys can aim and bad guys cant I suppose?

Rogue Star
26-12-2015, 07:22
Uh no just because you have similar things that doesnt make them identical. Is the T-99 the same as the M1a2 abrams? is the Ork trukk the same as the Eldar Wave Serpent?

Even the basic idea of the Orks is Quantity over quality at least in regards to infantry. In terms of over things not so much. If every non-blast weapon on a vehicle had its rate of fire doubled then it woulkd be quantity . Back in 2nd edition orks have Bolt weapons too. The difference was Space marine could fire twice if they stood still to other races firing once.

Its especially apparent how the "evil" races are focused around melee over shooting. So good guys can aim and bad guys cant I suppose?

Just quoting the last Orks Designer notes in White Dwarf, even if admittedly that was a long time ago. Andy Chambers had a heap of mail saying Orks couldn't deal with tanks very well - to which he said "Tough. They can't be good at everything." In a similiar fashion he pointed out he had requests for some sort of protection for light Ork vehicles to stop them getting fragged early in the game. Again, he said "Tough, it's a defining feature."

ChaosTicket
26-12-2015, 13:55
Why would light vehicles be tough? the point of a heavy vehicle is that it can carry significantly more armor and larger weapons. Its like comparing a Humvee to an M1a2 abrams. the wave Serpent at at the least a Medium vehicle with plenty of armor especially for a transport and is quite expensive as a result..

Orks are bad at dealing with tanks because their ranged options suck. Zzapp gun is a vastly inferior version of EVERY anti-tank weapon the game. Autocannons, missile launchers, Lascannons, those are basic heavy weapons. Again, they lost those weapons in the 2nd/3rd edition transition. The only common heavy weapon orks can be good with s the Lobba because it is a blast weapon.

When checking out Imperial Armor 8 I made a list of weapons that would help the orks and not coincidentally they are all Blast weapons. The Supa-Kannon is must have just to turn battlewagons into Kill-tanks.

Matthueycamo
26-12-2015, 15:48
Chaos I think you are right in that regard. It makes little sense that they after the reconned stuff don't have acess to those things anymore. I think the reason though is factions that are more different on paper like they are now in general make for selling more models because of more interest in USP of a faction. From what I gather in my experience you are in the minority, most people seem to like that differentiation. I would not want them to be the same stat lines myself but maybe Orks could have access to more stuff but they don't work as well as the original to take into account that it's been scavenged. I was not around in 2nd edition so maybe this was the case then that they were weaker than the original but it's an idea that might stick with the current fluff and their USP but not have them so weak in that regard.

Inquisitor Kallus
26-12-2015, 21:27
Ok GOOD tanks and armor. Happy Mr literal?




Yes, because there is a large difference.
How are people here supposed to even remotely understand you or take you seriously when you cant even say what you mean, especially amongst your haphazard arguments and passive aggressive insults. In fact ive had enough of your inane rambling

ChaosTicket
27-12-2015, 00:01
Yes, because there is a large difference.
How are people here supposed to even remotely understand you or take you seriously when you cant even say what you mean, especially amongst your haphazard arguments and passive aggressive insults. In fact ive had enough of your inane rambling

Yes there is. Think about the difference between a predator Destructor and a Leman Russ Battle Tank for tanks. For Infantry think about the difference between Terminator armor and Mega-armor or Power armor and eavy Armor.

Youre insulting me with passive aggressive and straight up insults in that very statement. So wtf?
==========================
Anyone who read my posts from the first page knows I would advance the story, but gameplay wise I would balance out the races. I dont mean all the shares are shared, but fill up some missing roles. Each race could have their own "tanks", artillery, heavy infantry, and so on. That doesnt mean they would all perform the same. One artillery could fire small blasts but have high strength to take out tough targets while another uses big blasts but weaker damage.

ntw3001
27-12-2015, 05:54
I rather liked the Ork fluff that provoked a thousand rage-posts. It offers up a new Ork (and vassals) faction, with different composition and motivations.

I wouldn't have called Gork and Mork Chaos Gods, though. I consider the Chaos Gods to be those four major warp entities most interested in and most significantly sustained by humans (Slaanesh, I think, fits due to both the scarcity of Eldar and the measures they take to avoid feeding her). But it's established that every emotion has a reflection in the warp (IIRC even the Ratskins' hive spirits from Necromunda exist as some manner of minor warp entity). So I'd have called them a 'warp entity', which is the same damn thing but I've noted that pointless quibbling over semantics is popular in this thread and I would like to be popular.

I don't really agree, though, on the emotion Gork and Mork have been proposed to represent in this thread. Orks are established to be motivated by one major emotion, which is fairly dissimilar to the other Gods (it's closest ot Khorne, but I think it's distinct). They're not particularly hedonistic or avaricious, and they're certainly not resigned. That means they don't feed Slaanesh, Tzeentch or Nurgle in any major way. They're not even particularly militaristic or bloodthirsty, although I'm sure they can scarcely avoid feeding Khorne by their actions. But their primary motivator, vastly outsripping everything else, is low-brow, boisterous glee. Gork and Mork are surely the gods of Orks, obnoxious hen parties and lads' holidays to Bangkok.

Finally, regarding 'why don't Orks take over the Imperium if they're so great': Why would they? Why would every race's ultimate motive be to destroy the Imperium? Orks don't have a policy of expansionism. They don't unite to destroy the galaxy because, as a general rule, they're not terribly ambitious. They offer Tzeentch very little to work with. They drive fast cars and fight, and aren't burdened by existential worries. When they attack, they attack for fun. With the proposed Gazhgull fluff, though, that faction of Orks would have a different kind of motivation and organisation, which is why they'd be spicy.

Anyway, it's the same question people tend to ask about the Daemon Primarchs: Why don't they get involved with fighting the Imperium? Well, why would they? They left the Imperium behind ten thousand years ago and from what they've heard it's gone to hell. Why should, say, Lorgar still be interested? They're demigods with their own damn space empires. When siblings fight and split up they tend just to carry on with their own businesses, not indulge in lifelong revenge plots. Even the level of interest some of them currently take is unbelievably petty (although in Angron's case it's believable because of his character).

Finally, regarding the Impreium's population: It's alleged in fluff to comprise approximately a million worlds, with wildly varying population density. Hive worlds, of course, are many times more densely populated than modern-day Earth, whereas many other classes of planet maintain an incredibly sparse population. Given the heavily-emphasised inefficiency of Imperial bureaucracy and logistics, I don't imagine the process of supplying the densley-populated worlds with the produce of the agri-worlds is terribly efficient. 'Emormous waste' is a running theme in descriptions of the Imperium. I would estimate that, across the Imperium, the average population would probably be similar to, or somewhat lower than, modern-day Earth. Several billion people per world over roughly a milllion worlds would put the total population somewhere in the region of 'several trillion'.

Anyway, what I'd add: If bloat weren't a concern, I'd add more division between Eldar craftworlds. Space Marines, a faction who all got together and agreed to be exactly the same, currently have almost one thousand codexes. Why do the actually-different Ulthwe, Biel-Tan, Saim-Hann and so forth all have to pull from a single codex?

Okay, my real answer would be to get rid of the chapter codexes, but this is the adding thread [emoji14]

Antonidas
27-12-2015, 09:38
I would add Cultruetech into the Imperium and so restore humanity in its former full godhood glory.

ntw3001
27-12-2015, 13:55
I forgot to mention my favourite 40k theory: I would imply that the Emperor is an ancient, superpowered Genestealer magus and the Imperial Cult is, at its core, a galaxy-wide Genestealer cult put in place to lash out at other species and ensure that the Tyranids don't encounter unified resistance from any peaceful galactic alliance. The reason the hive fleets have been said to be drawn to the Astronomican is because that's what it's there for. It's the standard GSC psychic beacon, except it's large and strong enough to attract Tyranids from ten thousand years' travel outaide the galaxy.

I also like the various hints at what exists outside the galaxy. The aforementioned Ork chatter, that one Necron who started to go out there and then came right back to warn everyone about something, the mystery of where the Tyranids are from, how old they are, how many there are and what they can actually do (fluff like Zoats and Genestealers seem to show that they have other, more subtle tricks they don't bother to use on this galaxy). Especially the Tyranid stuff. Tyranids are super mysterious and it's neat.

TheSaylesMan
29-12-2015, 01:30
I forgot to mention my favourite 40k theory: I would imply that the Emperor is an ancient, superpowered Genestealer magus and the Imperial Cult is, at its core, a galaxy-wide Genestealer cult put in place to lash out at other species and ensure that the Tyranids don't encounter unified resistance from any peaceful galactic alliance. The reason the hive fleets have been said to be drawn to the Astronomican is because that's what it's there for. It's the standard GSC psychic beacon, except it's large and strong enough to attract Tyranids from ten thousand years' travel outaide the galaxy.

I also like the various hints at what exists outside the galaxy. The aforementioned Ork chatter, that one Necron who started to go out there and then came right back to warn everyone about something, the mystery of where the Tyranids are from, how old they are, how many there are and what they can actually do (fluff like Zoats and Genestealers seem to show that they have other, more subtle tricks they don't bother to use on this galaxy). Especially the Tyranid stuff. Tyranids are super mysterious and it's neat.

Unfortunately, recent Black Library offerings provide a direct contradiction to that hoped for change for Tyranids and the Imperium both.

The new Horus Heresy book Pharos has an end blurb that clarifies that a certain event in that book attracted the slumbering Hive Fleets as they subconsciously decided on which galaxy would provide the greatest yield to them. That's about as vague as I can make it.

Rogue Star
29-12-2015, 02:42
The new Horus Heresy book Pharos has an end blurb that clarifies that a certain event in that book attracted the slumbering Hive Fleets as they subconsciously decided on which galaxy would provide the greatest yield to them. That's about as vague as I can make it.

*Rolling up newspaper* No! Bad Black Library! Bad!

But seriously, if some accident with the Pharos is the beacon that attracted the Tyranids... they'd have to have been right next door to cross the intergalactic gulf between galaxies at sub-light speeds to arrive in a nine to ten thousand years.

WarsmithGarathor94
29-12-2015, 06:01
@chaosticket I would imagine the word bearers do or we could get the shadow crusade part 2 and have it be word bearers and world eaters wrecking the Ultramarines again

ntw3001
29-12-2015, 10:19
God damn it Black Library stop clarifying things. I completely expect the two lost legions to be fully explained before the HH series is done. The Storm Wizards led by Thor Lightninghero and the Bloodgorers led by Viscerus Bloodmuscles. They return from the warp havong experienced ten million years of war due to time dilation. Every object related to either chapter continuously emits awesome lightning.

So what I'd add is a page at the back of that book asking readers to disregard all mention of Tyranids within, then I'd imply that other stuff. I'd also do the same with the Ollianus Pius fluff, because to me the entire point of that story was that an ordinary guardsman saved the future of the Imperium because his unwitting death momentarily distracted an unstoppable opponent, and his name was never remembered. He was the perfect aspirational hero for the Imperium, but actually now he's a superstar superpowered superhero like all the others. I guess the writers didn't spot the black humour; they generally don't.

TheSaylesMan
29-12-2015, 20:05
I completely expect the two lost legions to be fully explained before the HH series is done.

Boom. There. That's what I want. You mock but I am sick of the Lost Legions being lost. The only purpose the Lost Legions serve is to provide a creatively bankrupt loophole for thirteen-year-olds to use so they can claim their space marine army is secretly a lost legion. I was tired of that when I was thirteen. I am still tired of that now that I am far older than thirteen. I can't stand it anymore! Just fill in that blank please and thank you.

ntw3001
29-12-2015, 23:46
Oh man, I was with you on the Ork stuff but the path you're treading is one I cannot follow

Matthueycamo
29-12-2015, 23:56
I think lost in that context is the wrong word. From what I have read it seems it's known what happened to them by various interactions in the books, it's just not revealed to us. I don't think it justifies any Marine armies from a "lost" legion being fielded. However I doubt it will be revealed in any great detail if at all in the HH series, why would GW do that when they can spin it out into another full series of books other materials and even models?

ChaosTicket
30-12-2015, 04:38
The Lost Legions are possibly one of the greatest ways to fail in storytelling. There is no way to actually satisfy players especially with the lackluster writers. Dan Abnett would probably have to write them in.

Even if you do, its doesnt matter to the storyline as 2 legions out of the millions of Astartes spread across the universe is nothing.

If youre going for space marines I want to see those minor but interesting chapters increase in importance. Black Dragons, Mentors, Exorcists, and so on are unique but forgotten.

TheSaylesMan
30-12-2015, 18:19
The Lost Legions are possibly one of the greatest ways to fail in storytelling. There is no way to actually satisfy players especially with the lackluster writers. Dan Abnett would probably have to write them in.

Even if you do, its doesnt matter to the storyline as 2 legions out of the millions of Astartes spread across the universe is nothing.

Okay, fine! Let's just retcon them out of existence than! They add nothing. If trying to tell a story with them is doomed for failure than the entire thing is a wash and shouldn't exist at all. Or maybe its an in-universe myth? Tell a story about that. Why and how did the myth of there being twenty legions instead of 18. Just somebody do something with it. Anything.

I also find it odd that in one line you say that two legions worth of Astartes is a meaningless drop in the bucket and then in the next line espouse the virtues of giving some love to small Chapters who would have even less potential for impact on the setting at large.

ChaosTicket
30-12-2015, 21:35
Black Dragons chapter are mutants from the cursed founding that develop bone claws that they then coat with metal(Wolverine anyone?).

Exorcists chapter willingly allow themselves to be possessed by daemons then exorcise them so the Exorcists can develop skills only Grey knights officially have.

Mentors chapter seek out old technology and actually use ti rather than hoard it in vaults.

Relictors gathered daemon artifacts without being corrupted under the authority of an Inquisitor.

Flame Falcons became a chapter of The Human Torch.

Sons of Antaeus are suspected of being Death Guard Loyalist/successors

Minotaurs are suspected of being World Eater Loyalists/successors

Fire Hawks became the ghostly Legion of the Damned.

Lord Damocles
30-12-2015, 21:50
Relictors gathered daemon artifacts without being corrupted under the authority of an Inquisitor.
They also did the whole 'attack an Inquisition fortress and make off with corrupt artefact(s)' thing, so they weren't all that great in the eyes of the Inquisition (who then declared them Excommunicate Traitoris and purged them with the assistance of the Grey Knights).


Sons of Antaeus are suspected of being Death Guard Loyalist/successors
With absolutely no evidence.


Minotaurs are suspected of being World Eater Loyalists/successor
With no evidence besides 'they're both quite angry sometimes'.

TheSaylesMan
31-12-2015, 02:08
Black Dragons chapter are mutants from the cursed founding that develop bone claws that they then coat with metal(Wolverine anyone?).

Exorcists chapter willingly allow themselves to be possessed by daemons then exorcise them so the Exorcists can develop skills only Grey knights officially have.

Mentors chapter seek out old technology and actually use ti rather than hoard it in vaults.

Relictors gathered daemon artifacts without being corrupted under the authority of an Inquisitor.

Flame Falcons became a chapter of The Human Torch.

Sons of Antaeus are suspected of being Death Guard Loyalist/successors

Minotaurs are suspected of being World Eater Loyalists/successors

Fire Hawks became the ghostly Legion of the Damned.

Yeah, that's neat. It still doesn't change the fact that you stated that twenty chapters worth of Astartes is ultimately meaningless on a galactic scale but these much smaller forces deserve more attention because reasons. I don't even know what you are trying to say with this. On the one hand, guys with admittedly neat gimmicks. On the other, a mystery that has existed since second edition. I understand being cynical about actually pulling it off but at this point just rip off the bandage already. There's a decent chance that the only reason the Lost Legions exist is because somebody didn't like Space Sharks and Rainbow Warriors from first edition. If its an anti-climax, so what? They already offer nothing to the setting at large anyway.

ChaosTicket
31-12-2015, 02:30
Its not about about more fighters, its about what they do and what their objectives are.

Just more abandoned plot threads. Anyone who finds technology does nothing with it(unless a codex wants a new unit) for example.

Rogue Star
31-12-2015, 09:23
I would like if GW fleshed out the Foundings more. All we know from the background is that there were 24 Foundings, the 2nd Founding(breaking up the Legions) being the largest. The 21th Founding was the second largest creation of Chapters and an attempt to improve on the Emperor's work (with catastrophic results) and considered "Cursed". The 13th "Dark" Founding was a founding of unknown size, and no Chapters claim it as their inception... it's basically there for GW to allow any Chapter a fan creates, not listed among their work to exist...

ntw3001
01-01-2016, 01:51
I'm not sure that information about the foundings would be terribly interesting. I mean, aren't most of them just dudes? Like, the eignteenth founding would be a bunch of Astartes chapters, not terribly spicy. Emperor's Castellans, Sons of Proteys, Lion Brotherhood, nobody special. Or else they could give every founding their own unique gimmick, which IMO would be pointless and terrible. There's already a founding for gimmicky chapters, and the non-gimmicky ones are supposed to be normal.

I do like it when smaller chapters get a bit of the limelight, though. In the Eisenhorn novels they were briefly accompanied by two marines from the Aurora Chapter and that was cool. Chapters like that don't need a ton of background, just a small bit of normal-guy exposure.

Myself, I'm happy when I see the Silver Skulls get a little mention. I'm not too pleased at the idea of additional Silver Skulls background (which I believe may exist?), because that eats into my own sense of owning the things I like. The Silver Skulls were my favourite chapter on the back of the painting guide that came with 2nd ed 40k, and I didn't make up background for them or anything like that, but I don't want anyone else doing that either. They're my choice and they're different to most other people's choices. That's what I like about them. Not the chapter master's puntastic name and not any other nonsense that may have been attached. The more agency I have over my chosen chapter, the better.

ChaosTicket
01-01-2016, 02:33
Unfortunately yes. Except for some unique chapters like the ones I mentioned nearly all chapters are some variation on the basic codex astartes with little to to distinguish. They are just color swaps. The Imperial Armor: Badab war showed off several chapters but "likes direct assaults" isnt something worthy of having a codex.

I like those unique chapters because they could be as important as the First Founding Legions if anyone cared to follow and them.

If you filled out the Foundings it would be rather boring as it would just be "[blank] number of chapters were created". The Cursed founding is probably the most interesting just because of how Mad Science and Supernatural the chapters that came out are. They had their own special Cursed Founding army list back in 3rd edition.

ntw3001
01-01-2016, 03:36
Ah, see I'm the opposite. I like the freedom of pickinf things just because they're the thing I pick and I like them. I like Silver Skulls, Daisy in Mario games, the orange houses in Settlers of Catan, the black trains in Ticket to Ride, the red girl in Mysterium, the yellow board in Pictomania, Aladdin in Arabian Nights, the Highland faction in Tash-Kalar, Valerie in Puzzle Strike and so on. Not because they have special powers or fluff (although the last two do have those), but because I chose them so they're mine. Fluff is extraneous and largely unwelcome; in 40k the Imperium is fascinating but I don't want any official work interfering with me in anything other than that broad, scene-setting sense.

I loved the unexplored chapters who existed only on the back page of an old painting guide precisely because they were unexplored, and I love the masses of chapters who only exist in brief mentions. The absolute worst thing for me is the Star Wars-style exposition where every single extra (or throwaway faction) gets a full backstory. I don't see the need. But then I don't see the need for a lot of the things people ask for in 40k fluff. Sometimes it's GW's fault (people wouldn't complain about continuing the 'storyline' if GW hadn't awkwardly meshed pro-wrestling-style character-driven plot threads into the setting), and sometimes it's fault of the players. It's never my fault, though. That wouldn't make any sense.

Rogue Star
02-01-2016, 17:15
I'm not sure that information about the foundings would be terribly interesting. I mean, aren't most of them just dudes? Like, the eignteenth founding would be a bunch of Astartes chapters, not terribly spicy. Emperor's Castellans, Sons of Proteys, Lion Brotherhood, nobody special. Or else they could give every founding their own unique gimmick, which IMO would be pointless and terrible. There's already a founding for gimmicky chapters, and the non-gimmicky ones are supposed to be normal.

Doesn't need to be a full length novel, but I'd like to see more expansion on it. And you don't need a 'gimmick', you just need to look at the lore. You could have a founding set after the Reign of Blood, which all the Chapters created from it being crusaders, mobile Chapters which are known to expand the Imperium's territories. It would be a small, throwaway-line that gives someone looking at the lesser known Chapters an idea to run with. Likewise, you could have an entirely normal Founding, list a few names, Storm Hawks, Tigers Argent, Blood Swords, etc and list one of them as having turned Traitor, becoming one of the non-Legion Chaos Warbands, which would give players/modelers a legitimate idea to run with; you're painting up Storm Hawks and your friend wants to play Chaos Space Marines? Here's the guys from their original founding they've sworn to hunt down.

TheSaylesMan
02-01-2016, 23:16
I was thinking lately that I'd like to see more women in 40k. Specifically in female only organizations. Sort of like the Adeptus Sororitus except it is an organization founded because of the unique strengths of women and not because of a dumb loophole. Also sort of like the Navigators, Adeptus Astartes or Adeptus Mechanicus in the idea that they are post-humans. What exactly I wanted came to me when I thought of the Navigators. They are a close rip off of Dune's Spacing Guild. So why stop there? The Bene Gesserit would be the perfect source material to base a new branch of the Imperial hierarchy on. With the added benefit that it would allow for a focus on Imperial politics in a way that is not focused on warfare but on internal affairs.

For those unaware, the Bene Gesserit were a secretive organization of women that served as one part diplomat, one part courtesan and one part tutor. They were deeply connected with the nobility and served them with the intent of selectively breeding with them as a means to creating the perfect human and their own personal messiah figure. They were gifted with all kind of seemingly superhuman abilities such as perfect, conscious control of normally subconscious bodily processes. They had a vocal technique that served as limited mind control in that they could issue orders that others could not disobey.

In the context of 40k, you could use them to resurrect the old Star Child school of thought. I however would prefer something a little less extravagant. Namely, an organization that resorts to selective breeding due to the Imperial bans on genetic engineering of humans. Their intent would be to create superhuman beings in a natural way. Their connection to the nobility could serve to put forth the idea that Imperial nobility is quite literally bred to be superior to humans and to reinforce the inherently classist nature of the Imperium. The nobility is better that the common man. They are being bred to be that way.

ChaosTicket
03-01-2016, 00:17
Well there's no real reason. In Dune the Bene Gesserit(say that five times fast) are an extremely sexist organization and major villains but lack the brute force to make them as easy to hate as the Harkonnen or Imperial House . Like other things with Dune, they had basically magical powers. Ive read several of those books and any time somebody comes up with powers I just ask "wait, isnt this supposed to be SCIENCE?"

There's just no reason to have a female-only organization other than to BE a female-only organization. The Adeptus Sororitas have several of Bene Gesserit themes already in them, such as keeping detailed records of noble bloodlines and of course their magical powers.

The star Child is something i dont know alot of. If I remember right its a theory that the Emperor's soul is transferred to someone else. However with quadrillions of humans in the galaxy to search for, finding that person would be impossible.

Also, there is no proof humans banned genetic engineering. Mutation is looked down upon, but stable sub-species of humans such as the Ratlings and Ogryns are just another part of the Imperium. The Space Wolves homeworld is all genetically engineered to survive that deathworld and its suspected that is also the reason why the natives an handle the gene-seed of the mutant Leman Russ.

Orthodox
03-01-2016, 16:24
Ah, see I'm the opposite. I like the freedom of pickinf things just because they're the thing I pick and I like them. I like Silver Skulls, Daisy in Mario games, the orange houses in Settlers of Catan, the black trains in Ticket to Ride, the red girl in Mysterium, the yellow board in Pictomania, Aladdin in Arabian Nights, the Highland faction in Tash-Kalar, Valerie in Puzzle Strike and so on. Not because they have special powers or fluff (although the last two do have those), but because I chose them so they're mine. Fluff is extraneous and largely unwelcome; in 40k the Imperium is fascinating but I don't want any official work interfering with me in anything other than that broad, scene-setting sense.

I loved the unexplored chapters who existed only on the back page of an old painting guide precisely because they were unexplored, and I love the masses of chapters who only exist in brief mentions. The absolute worst thing for me is the Star Wars-style exposition where every single extra (or throwaway faction) gets a full backstory. I don't see the need. But then I don't see the need for a lot of the things people ask for in 40k fluff. Sometimes it's GW's fault (people wouldn't complain about continuing the 'storyline' if GW hadn't awkwardly meshed pro-wrestling-style character-driven plot threads into the setting), and sometimes it's fault of the players. It's never my fault, though. That wouldn't make any sense.

It's for this reason that I think there should be a new set of two chapters for every new marine codex, supplement, and campaign book. It should really emphasize that Ultramarines or Iron Hands, Corax or Magnus are really just another set of names, and that there are always more chapters with more variation where that came from.

Now, that comes with the caveat that it has to be the right kind of campaign, characters, and rules. For example, it is really easy write a story about space wolves that isn't about the secret fate of the thirteenth company, or how they have a climactic confrontation with the rest of the Imperium, but is about the fifteen characters that happen to actually be I. The book and their specific struggle with being terrorized by invisible daemon tyranids and sadistic stealth orks.

At some point, if you have a Kauyon book or a vanilla codex every ten months, and each one has aurora chapter and vigilators followed by warmongers and executioners, you get the idea that no specific chapter is really that important.

BlazeKaiser
03-01-2016, 21:05
Why is there so much focus on Space marines at the expense of every other army with warhammer 40,000? Space marines are what got me interested, but any chapter without special rules or something unique in their background isnt really interesting.

If for example, you have a chapter that uses Leman Russ tanks, then I would be interested.

If youre into subfactions I would like more emphasis place on Ork Klans. They havent had special rules or mention since 2nd edition I think. Bad Moons have alot of money and guns, Death Skulls have lots of looted imperial tanks, Blood Axes have camouflage and use actual tactics.

Matthueycamo
04-01-2016, 02:07
Money. What else?

totgeboren
04-01-2016, 09:12
I was thinking lately that I'd like to see more women in 40k. Specifically in female only organizations. Sort of like the Adeptus Sororitus except it is an organization founded because of the unique strengths of women and not because of a dumb loophole...

I just have to point out that these "unique strengths" you mention are super-stereotypical. And 'magical women' can already be found in the SoB.
In some ways it's rather offensive, since their super-powers seem to be the ability to talk men into doing dumb stuff, being sexy and being good at breeding.

I have no issue with you wanting that (what people want is what this thread is about after all!), but to me it sounds... really bad. There just has to be more interesting things you can do with women than turning them into manipulative birthing machines. :p

I want more competent bad guys. ADB has done a good job of turning armless Failbaddon into Abaddon, a proper character within the setting. Talon of Horus turns him into a proper villain, who isn't just mindlessly killing his minions for nonsensical reasons. I would like to see the same with the Orks.

And about Orks. I would like GW to kill the awful idea of Anzions theorem that ork stuff works because of psychic powers. It adds nothing to the setting and just makes orks less interesting.
I think it's much much more interesting if say a Mekboy has the same level of intuitive mechanical and technological understanding as for example some autistic musical savants have in regards to music. They see a phenomena once, and then they just understand how to create a machine that replicates the same thing.

Red paintjob can stay, but simply because every ork that spends teef on squig-fuel injectors and a more powerful engine will already have spent teef on red paint, cause red'unz go fasta!

Bah, it's probably my least favourite thing about 40k.

Oh, give back Nids Warp flight too. Frikkin Narwhals... just stupid.

blackcherry
04-01-2016, 10:14
Anzion's theorem though is something touted by the internet as 'proof' of Ork's innate psychic ability and not the background. Reading the original piece, it's pretty clear the point of view is that of an ignorant member of the Imperium who can't believe the Orks are so technologically advanced inherently and so put it's down to scientific sounding mumbo jumbo. Give it a decade plus of the Internet misunderstanding* what was written and you have 'fact' :p

Or has the latest Ork book included definitive changes to the background that make Anzion's theorem truth?

*subtlty and the internet never seem to mix for some reason.

Lord Damocles
04-01-2016, 10:15
Anzion's Theory is an in-universe theory which we know to be untrue (and presumably many in-universe know to be untrue as well).

The only problem with it is how it is constantly mis-represented (by us) as being true!

It's odd that other in-universe Mechanicus reports which draw clearly false conclusions (Necron weapons are impossible!) aren't constantly represented in the same way...

totgeboren
04-01-2016, 12:24
I think it is due to the red paint job upgrade, and that the text gives no hint that perhaps it's not ork confirmation bias that makes the vehicle travel faster, but it seems to make it rather clear that it is in fact precisely this that causes the effect.

It's easy to get the impression that GW themselves have accepted the theory as fact.

TheSaylesMan
05-01-2016, 02:05
I just have to point out that these "unique strengths" you mention are super-stereotypical. And 'magical women' can already be found in the SoB.
In some ways it's rather offensive, since their super-powers seem to be the ability to talk men into doing dumb stuff, being sexy and being good at breeding.

I have no issue with you wanting that (what people want is what this thread is about after all!), but to me it sounds... really bad. There just has to be more interesting things you can do with women than turning them into manipulative birthing machines. :p

I'm not sure I follow. I would rather be a smooth-talking master spy and diplomat that has seemingly limitless diplomatic immunity to the law and was part of a vast, shadowy cabal that that seeks to take the genetic destiny of the species into their own hands any day. Sounds a ton better than being an Astartes. Was their ability limited to controlling men? Its been some years since I actually read the books but from what I remember they could dominate minds, control their own biochemistry and had ultimate mastery of their own bodies which made them some of the most fearsome combatants in the galaxy. They quite literally controlled the future of politics and the species until one of their own deviated from the grand plan. I would also hesitate to call them sexy. The most common depictions of them aren't that at all. In fact, it seems that their importance within the organization only deepened as they aged.

It feels like you are somehow contriving giving birth as somehow demeaning. They didn't do it anyone's behest but their own to serve their own ends.

The innate difference between the Bene Gesserit and the Adeptus Sororitas is that the Sisters are Brides of the Emperor whom have sworn oaths of fealty. They have some leeway to interpret the Imperial Creed but ultimately they are servants, not masters.

BlazeKaiser
05-01-2016, 09:51
I'm not sure I follow. I would rather be a smooth-talking master spy and diplomat that has seemingly limitless diplomatic immunity to the law and was part of a vast, shadowy cabal that that seeks to take the genetic destiny of the species into their own hands any day. Sounds a ton better than being an Astartes. Was their ability limited to controlling men? Its been some years since I actually read the books but from what I remember they could dominate minds, control their own biochemistry and had ultimate mastery of their own bodies which made them some of the most fearsome combatants in the galaxy. They quite literally controlled the future of politics and the species until one of their own deviated from the grand plan. I would also hesitate to call them sexy. The most common depictions of them aren't that at all. In fact, it seems that their importance within the organization only deepened as they aged.



Women who can control men's minds, rule the galaxy from behind people backs, have powers that only the author can understand? You just described the ultimate stereotypical woman.

Old writers, um they could make some awesome works of fiction but they were basically all bigots in one way or another. HP Lovecraft was an anti-semite and made being part Welsh on the same level as Cthulu.

I dont want to see any more magical stereotypes. In a game with Space Vikings and Space vampires and Magical Space Women already are there, and having Extra Super Special magical Space Women is just a cliche. Dune novels even went into making several more kinds of magical space women from the fish Speakers, Honored Matres, and maybe others.

totgeboren
05-01-2016, 14:05
I'm not sure I follow. I would rather be a smooth-talking master spy and diplomat that has seemingly limitless diplomatic immunity to the law and was part of a vast, shadowy cabal that that seeks to take the genetic destiny of the species into their own hands any day. Sounds a ton better than being an Astartes. Was their ability limited to controlling men? Its been some years since I actually read the books but from what I remember they could dominate minds, control their own biochemistry and had ultimate mastery of their own bodies which made them some of the most fearsome combatants in the galaxy. They quite literally controlled the future of politics and the species until one of their own deviated from the grand plan. I would also hesitate to call them sexy. The most common depictions of them aren't that at all. In fact, it seems that their importance within the organization only deepened as they aged.

It feels like you are somehow contriving giving birth as somehow demeaning. They didn't do it anyone's behest but their own to serve their own ends.

The innate difference between the Bene Gesserit and the Adeptus Sororitas is that the Sisters are Brides of the Emperor whom have sworn oaths of fealty. They have some leeway to interpret the Imperial Creed but ultimately they are servants, not masters.

The problem for me is the context. The conversation goes kinda like this in my head;

A says: Ok, so marines are all exaggerated male. Big He-men that fight all the time and do nothing else. Real manly men!
B says: Then lets make an all-women faction! So what's an exaggerated woman?
A says: Eh, someone who solves problems with words... and gives birth to people... kitchen somethingthing perhaps?
B says: No! It has to be kewl! Hmmm... non-violent problem solving... lets make them master manipulators!
A says: And they can control the genetic future of humanity!
B says: Hmmm... kitchen... knives? Lets make them really good with knives!
A says: Nah, lets just make them really acrobatic. Say they have supreme body-control or something.
B says: Great idea!

But yeah, the problem of women in sci-fi/fantasy is not new. Make them like stereotypical hero-men and it feels forced and overtly PC. Try to find them a different niche and it often becomes just as stereotypical, and equally cringe worthy.
However, I'm now doing something I strongly dislike when people do and thus must apologise, and that is feeling offended on someone else's behalf.

I have not heard any lamentation from women about the Bene Gesserit, and it's likely almost noone cares either. :p

BlazeKaiser
05-01-2016, 16:51
Ok lets let that particular area die.

Really the only idea based around women only that isnt as sexist as Adeptus Sororitas is the Sister's of Silence. Those were mentioned several times in the Horus Heresy Novels and they are an interesting concept. its not because they are women, but because they are squads of anti-psyker Pariahs. You would imagine that Inquisitors would love those.

Pariahs are interesting and now with pysker powers becoming much more widespead having a unit that would be immune and even counterattack pyskers would be quite useful.

Lord Damocles
05-01-2016, 17:28
It looks like the Sisters of Silence are going to be wiped out (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?414132-The-Beast-Arises-Confirmation-and-Schedule&p=7571952&viewfull=1#post7571952) in M32.

blackcherry
06-01-2016, 09:39
It would explain why they don't exist in the 'present' setting for those who need their continuity spelled out for them.

Lusall
06-01-2016, 16:09
I hate to be that guy, and I know you said it was depressing but for me, it's more to do with what I would remove or change.

I feel like the Necrons should move a little more towards the 3rd edition codex in terms of fluff. They're just...a lot less scary now. They're Tomb Kings in space instead of a potential all consuming death horde of metal skeletons and their Lovecraft-ian star gods of doom.

Not a huge fan of what is done to Tau, but I understand the desire to make them less good. I'd make some of their big suits harder to come by. 0-1.

Kaldor Draigo or however you spell his name...either remove him entirely or change his fluff so that it doesn't explicitly state that he's walking around the warp, punching dark gods without consequence. Like..."there are whispers that he walks still about the warp, appearing when most needed" instead of just "HE'S A GOD PRETTY MUCH". Or it could be that since he's old, those rules are Drago before he was dragged into the warp.

You know...maybe I would bring back subtlety to the writing. More metaphor and implication than "This is how it is". More mystery. I don't know. I'm just a grouch.

TheSaylesMan
06-01-2016, 22:44
If we're going to talk about Necrons, I want them gone. Removed. Squatted. Goodbye and good riddance to that nonsense. They add less than Tau. At least Tau get to serve as an example of the numerous xenos empires throughout the galaxy and provide a set of fresher eyes on the status quo. Necrons add nothing. Let me put it this way. Years ago, the writers of Batman tried to introduce a new villain. They printed in big bold letters he was more deadly than Ra's al Ghul and crazier than the Joker. For those not in the know, the are pretty much the two top tier villain in Batman's rogue's gallery.

Necrons are that. Older than Eldar! Competing with Tyranids to consume all life!! They are anathema to the Warp and their Dark Gods have plots to take out the Chaos Gods!!! The Deceiver is secretly responsible for the Gothic War. The C'tan are secretly huge figures in Eldar myth. The Tyranids avoid the Outsider like the plague. They secretly engineered untouchables despite existing before humanity was a species and being asleep for the vast majority of their lifespan and yet Untouchables can be found anywhere in the galaxy. They are secretly the true form of the Machine God. They have ships that can dare pop right into the Solar System. The Nightbringer is responsible for fear of death in ALL LIVING THINGS. Give me a break. They Worf Effected the entire galaxy. And that is all in their original codex. At least the current form of Necrons isn't an embarrassment.

Also, not Lovecraftian. Not at all. There's nothing Lovecraftian about giant, floating Greek God looking guys. The Warp and the Chaos Gods are closer to Lovecraftian than those things.

Jack of Blades
07-01-2016, 01:28
Necrons are that. Older than Eldar! Competing with Tyranids to consume all life!! They are anathema to the Warp and their Dark Gods have plots to take out the Chaos Gods!!! The Deceiver is secretly responsible for the Gothic War. The C'tan are secretly huge figures in Eldar myth. The Tyranids avoid the Outsider like the plague. They secretly engineered untouchables despite existing before humanity was a species and being asleep for the vast majority of their lifespan and yet Untouchables can be found anywhere in the galaxy. They are secretly the true form of the Machine God. They have ships that can dare pop right into the Solar System. The Nightbringer is responsible for fear of death in ALL LIVING THINGS. Give me a break. They Worf Effected the entire galaxy. And that is all in their original codex. At least the current form of Necrons isn't an embarrassment.

Also, not Lovecraftian. Not at all. There's nothing Lovecraftian about giant, floating Greek God looking guys. The Warp and the Chaos Gods are closer to Lovecraftian than those things.

I think the Necrons and C'tan are a good thing. But I do share your dislike of their more overblown aspects, like the completely nonsensical idea that the Nightbringer is the reason why life fears death (and that the Orks don't for the reason that it didn't attack them....). The good things about them were that they are a galactic threat that is organised, unlike Chaos and Orks, and they are not Tyranids which means there are more factions competing for the galaxy than just Chaos, Imperium, Tyranids and arguably Orks - they bring their own background and motives to the table. The problem with the Oldcrons wasn't them but the too great influence of the C'tan, and I sympathise with concerns that the Necrons couldn't be given any kind of character and were really Codex: C'tan. But now with the Newcrons they have both been made less threatening and most significantly, they have been humanised. Now they are no longer a terror that humanity cannot relate to like the Chaos gods, the Tyranid hive mind or the Ork psyche. They might as well have been turned into a long-lost human civilization.

Khaines Wrath
07-01-2016, 01:28
I'd bring back the C'tan. Simple. I think they were an awesome idea. I loved the concept of a sickly, dying race accidentally discovering star gods whom they gift with bodies and their worship and are repayed by being enslaved by them.

I hated the retcon so very, very, very much. They lost their menace and foreboding to become literally Tomb Kings in space...

Give me Codex: C'tan anyday, the Vampire Counts of 40k.

Theocracity
07-01-2016, 03:27
Give me Codex: C'tan anyday, the Vampire Counts of 40k.

I'm more of a fan of modern Necrons personally, but I also think something like this would be a great idea. If we can have umpteen Imperial factions, different flavors of Chaos and two kinds of Eldar, why not two factions of Necron?

Keep the current Tomb King style Necron as they are, and make a new faction of Necron based on the servants of reconstituted C'Tan that functions more like Vampire Counts. Give the Deceiver a little more time in the conceptual oven and build his character out to be closer in role to Nagash. Have freed C'tan shards form new bodies to perform the same role as Vampires, or possibly have them spread via the Pariah gene. Have all sorts of crazy C'tan monsters or creepy effects to supplement the basic Necron style. There's certainly some possibilities.

Khaines Wrath
07-01-2016, 03:42
I'm more of a fan of modern Necrons personally, but I also think something like this would be a great idea. If we can have umpteen Imperial factions, different flavors of Chaos and two kinds of Eldar, why not two factions of Necron?

Keep the current Tomb King style Necron as they are, and make a new faction of Necron based on the servants of reconstituted C'Tan that functions more like Vampire Counts. Give the Deceiver a little more time in the conceptual oven and build his character out to be closer in role to Nagash. Have freed C'tan shards form new bodies to perform the same role as Vampires, or possibly have them spread via the Pariah gene. Have all sorts of crazy C'tan monsters or creepy effects to supplement the basic Necron style. There's certainly some possibilities.

I actually completely agree. To serve both sides the ideal solution for me would be to keep the Necron rebellion but to emphasise a divide between the independent Dynasties and the C'tan devotees. If they brought out a C'tan loyalist supplement similar to the Farsight Enclaves I would be supremely happy.

Jack of Blades
07-01-2016, 05:58
I actually completely agree. To serve both sides the ideal solution for me would be to keep the Necron rebellion but to emphasise a divide between the independent Dynasties and the C'tan devotees. If they brought out a C'tan loyalist supplement similar to the Farsight Enclaves I would be supremely happy.

Yeah, this would be the best. With the clause that the big majority should imo be C'tan loyalists who are controlled by the remains of the C'tan as this fits the narrative better than most of them being space tomb kings (ie. humanised). The "rebels" should in contrast be few but be and have the most powerful stuff, simply because they would logically have to in order to defeat the C'tan and the most powerful and free-willed Necrons would also be the most likely to rebel in the first place.

Lord Damocles
07-01-2016, 07:36
The World Engine features a dynasty still loyal to the C'tan - so they do (still) exist.

=Angel=
07-01-2016, 10:01
It would explain why they don't exist in the 'present' setting for those who need their continuity spelled out for them.

They (Sisters of Silence) never made sense as a faction. 40k as a whole neatly sidesteps the whole 'women in combat' issue by having humanity's hives be overflowing hell cities that actively need a way to get rid of excess people.

With psykers that's less true because psykers are approximately one in a million (ish). Psykers range in power from Chris Angel to Ahriman. Powerful psykers are therefore a valuable resource- whose potential lies in their genes. If a female psyker, who has excellent control of her abilities

reproduces with a muggle
gets killed while serving in the guard
gets sterilised by standing too close to Skitarri allies

those genes are lost. Girls are the bottleneck on human reproduction-barring Krieg style horror stories you get 1+ kid every 40 weeks, maximum. This is why in ages past women rarely served in combat- if half the men died you could still repopulate. If hal;f the women died your ability to repopulate has halved.

This is less important with psykers who are comparatively common.

But Pariahs are supposed to be one in a billion.
There would be about 5 of them on our planet. Like psykers, they are rated by power- so a low level pariah would be annoying to be around whereas an Omega level foetus was weaponised by Inquisitor Czevak to kill Grey Knights and Thousand Sons.

Building an army out of such rare individuals is foolish, building an army out of such rare women is insane.

totgeboren
07-01-2016, 10:26
If we're going to talk about Necrons, I want them gone. Removed. Squatted. Goodbye and good riddance to that nonsense. They add less than Tau. At least Tau get to serve as an example of the numerous xenos empires throughout the galaxy and provide a set of fresher eyes on the status quo. Necrons add nothing. Let me put it this way. Years ago, the writers of Batman tried to introduce a new villain. They printed in big bold letters he was more deadly than Ra's al Ghul and crazier than the Joker. For those not in the know, the are pretty much the two top tier villain in Batman's rogue's gallery.

Necrons are that. Older than Eldar! Competing with Tyranids to consume all life!! They are anathema to the Warp and their Dark Gods have plots to take out the Chaos Gods!!! The Deceiver is secretly responsible for the Gothic War. The C'tan are secretly huge figures in Eldar myth. The Tyranids avoid the Outsider like the plague. They secretly engineered untouchables despite existing before humanity was a species and being asleep for the vast majority of their lifespan and yet Untouchables can be found anywhere in the galaxy. They are secretly the true form of the Machine God. They have ships that can dare pop right into the Solar System. The Nightbringer is responsible for fear of death in ALL LIVING THINGS. Give me a break. They Worf Effected the entire galaxy. And that is all in their original codex. At least the current form of Necrons isn't an embarrassment.

Also, not Lovecraftian. Not at all. There's nothing Lovecraftian about giant, floating Greek God looking guys. The Warp and the Chaos Gods are closer to Lovecraftian than those things.

Yeah, here I agree. The Necrons of 3ed were basically a big facepalm of bad fanfac. It really was that bad. It was also really hard to get 'in to' Necrons. The codex was about how awesome the C'tan were, and the Necrons were really just tools. How many tools do you want to paint?
Codex 'Necrons' should be about Necrons. A bit like if Codex Daemons had like 2 daemons, and the rest were different sorts of cultists.
Though the designers did say they wanted the Necrons of 3ed to have a Lovecraftian feeling. The idea of unknowable entities from aeons past rising to reclaim their domain from the puny mortals of today. And Lovecraft did write a bit about zombies (not fresh enough!), and the Necrons are more or less unwilling zombies, though robotic.

But the Lovecraftian aesthetic firmly belongs to the Chaos gods.

I personally like the Tomb Kings in spaaace of today much better, though they just became a xenos among others instead.
They do step on the toes of the Thousand Sons when it comes to both looks and feel (both are silent mummy henchmen lead by ancient Egyptian high priests really).
Still, better than stepping on the entire background.
And killer robots, what's not to love? :)

=Angel=
07-01-2016, 12:11
Yeah, here I agree. The Necrons of 3ed were basically a big facepalm of bad fanfac. It really was that bad. It was also really hard to get 'in to' Necrons. The codex was about how awesome the C'tan were, and the Necrons were really just tools. How many tools do you want to paint?

Granted. Though this is a Guard conundrum too- how many t3 meatbags?
With the guard you could model some individuality onto each man if you chose, but that was a 6 point guy compared to a 15-20 point (can't remember) Necron.




I personally like the Tomb Kings in spaaace of today much better, though they just became a xenos among others instead.
They do step on the toes of the Thousand Sons when it comes to both looks and feel (both are silent mummy henchmen lead by ancient Egyptian high priests really).
Still, better than stepping on the entire background.
And killer robots, what's not to love? :)

That's really the issue I take, the uniqueness is gone.
There were 2 races with true Centralised control but while the warriors of the hivemind were blood and life and evolution, the Ctan's warriors were the cold unchanging stasis of the crypt.

There were 2 races with science rather than magic behind them, not in a state of technological decline, in full control of their technology. The Tau's tech was flashy and impressive- bursting with heat (plasma+melta), missiles, sciencey ion cannons and railguns etc. In stark contrast, the necron tech was incredibly alien and godlike- cold energy guns that eroded their targets atom by atom in flickers of green lightning. The whole idea of pulling a target apart and towards the necron rather than pushing energy or heat out is incredibly themeatic.

That's why I was disgusted to hear the word 'heat ray' in conjuction with talking, scheming Necrons. It completely undermines the theme of their guns and indeed their race.

Denny
07-01-2016, 12:36
That's why I was disgusted to hear the word 'heat ray' in conjuction with talking, scheming Necrons. It completely undermines the theme of their guns and indeed their race.

I get your point, but since the weapon was mounted on a three legged walker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_(The_War_of_the_Worlds)) I'm not sure what else you could call it . . .

Lord Damocles
07-01-2016, 12:51
I get your point, but since the weapon was mounted on a three legged walker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_(The_War_of_the_Worlds)) I'm not sure what else you could call it . . .
The Triarch Stalker actually has six legs.

Although the one in Hammer & Anvil only had three because isn't James Swallow good at references! :eyebrows:

Denny
07-01-2016, 12:55
The Triarch Stalker actually has six legs.

I played against one last week and I was still convinced it had three legs. I had to look at a picture to confirm it had six.
Weird. I guess the 'Tri' bit has confused me . . . .

(Or my mate put it together really badly and forgot some legs)

totgeboren
07-01-2016, 14:12
Granted. Though this is a Guard conundrum too- how many t3 meatbags?
With the guard you could model some individuality onto each man if you chose, but that was a 6 point guy compared to a 15-20 point (can't remember) Necron.


I like painting meatbags, as long as each model sort of tells a story. I didn't mind painting (and converting!) almost 300 traitor guardsmen, cultists and mutants, with chaos stars daubed onto armour and tattoos and stuff like that. :p

With their current theme I have been going back and forth about starting a Necron army, but the facelessness of the basic troops is still pushing me away. Each Necron Warrior will never tell a story, as that would even go against their theme. They are supposed to be faceless legions.
But on the other hand some people like that, and for those of us who don't there are already lots of other armies to pick, so I understand why some are feeling some resentment about the change in their background.

=Angel=
08-01-2016, 15:01
I like painting meatbags, as long as each model sort of tells a story. I didn't mind painting (and converting!) almost 300 traitor guardsmen, cultists and mutants, with chaos stars daubed onto armour and tattoos and stuff like that. :p

With their current theme I have been going back and forth about starting a Necron army, but the facelessness of the basic troops is still pushing me away. Each Necron Warrior will never tell a story, as that would even go against their theme. They are supposed to be faceless legions.
But on the other hand some people like that, and for those of us who don't there are already lots of other armies to pick, so I understand why some are feeling some resentment about the change in their background.

Hilariously, I don't even play crons, I was just always a fan of their background.

You know what I would have been fine with?
Necron lords/sergeants with a spark of individuality, a cold hatred for the living, an envy of flesh. If they just couldn't talk.
They'd motion silently to their Human/Eldar/Tau ...etc slaves and with brutal efficient hand gestures or light pulses from their staff compel them to speak to the lesser races they were fighting and order them to throw down their arms or be exterminated.

Necron Lords go into battle with a retinue of prisoners compelled to obey via mind scarabs or simple reprogramming. Have them reroll 'look out sir's to shield the lord with their fleshy mass.
Add a datasheet for units of conscripts from other slave races. Add war engines fuelled by the souls of living prisoners, artillery that drains its crew to fire, with rules to drain enemy units instead. Let that be your Necron Empire, and none of this Decepticon political intrigue.

Lord Damocles
08-01-2016, 15:10
Necron lords/sergeants with a spark of individuality, a cold hatred for the living, an envy of flesh. If they just couldn't talk.
Some Necrons talking (which has been the case for over a decade, anyway) doesn't preclude anyone having their Necrons from being silent.

The Lord from Dawn of War: Dark Crusade was silent, using Thomas Macabee as a mouthpiece, for example.

Rogue Star
08-01-2016, 16:19
Also, not Lovecraftian. Not at all. There's nothing Lovecraftian about giant, floating Greek God looking guys. The Warp and the Chaos Gods are closer to Lovecraftian than those things.

Debatable. One of the main themes of being "Lovecraftian" (and there are several) is that the cosmic horror involved is malignant, supernatural/extraterrestrial and pre-human. While the Chaos Gods can be listed in various forms as those things, they're essentially human emotions and nightmares made manifest. We made them. The rage and courage, the despair and determination, the hope and cunning, the passion and the degradation, it's a twisted reflection of the collective psyche of humanity.

They need us. We don't need them.

That is a critical, underlying point of the Emperor's plan to smother their influence and knowledge about the Warp and the Powers within it during the Great Crusade, and his secret works to subdue and segregate it from the ascendant humanity. It is also why it's very hard to consider them as Lovecraftian when they rely on humanity, the dominant galactic species, to provide them with so much fodder, sport and mortal champions. Hell, the plan was such a threat to the Greater Powers they briefly joined together (through their daemonic vassals) to subvert and corrupt it with the Primarchs and the Heresy.

That doesn't sound like remote supernatural powers to whom the creation of Mankind, the eye-blink of it's rise and fall, and eventual extinction are regarded as nothing more than the brief buzz of a mayfly. Which you kind of need to be Lovecraftian...

But I totally agree with you on the Necrons. They need a major overhaul to be workable. ;) :D

Razios
11-01-2016, 00:03
just a few things:

Chaos trinket: about the orks...for some reason you tend to see as their are a faction instead of a race, orks dosent have mayor motivation just like the dark eldar and chaos which I consider the point.

About Ollinus pius.....WHY? I mind for me is stupid part of the fluff that dosent have much sense: a guardsman that someone manage to get in the vengative spirit,find his way without being killed,going insane or both and them anage to said a complete sentece before horus vaporize him on the spot.....really? and yet almost everyone loves them because "Die standing" or "balls of steel" or whatever insidius meme from /Tg/(who are mayor IG faboys) who need to steal credit, ugh.

quantumcollider
11-01-2016, 14:06
I'm pretty content with the setting as it is, with only minor adjustments to some of the backstory.

For starter, I would like to integrate the old Necron fluff into the new background; for example that the C'Tan after their victory over the Old Ones were at the height of their power, but then turned against one another. The Laughing God tricked the Void Dragon into devouring other C'Tan, and then the Deceiver manipulated the Nightbringer into slaying his brothers. Only when they had already torn themselves to pieces did the Necrons have the power to rebel and shatter them.

And it would pave the way of one of my favourite bits of fluff to return: the story of Tech-Adept Cortswain. In this reimagining the Dyson Sphere below the galactic plane would still exist: once a great Necrontyr stronghold, it is now is the only place in the Universe where a shard of truly epic proportions can be contained. And the Necron overlord who runs the sphere is sending forth legions of Necrons to harvest worlds, because his insane prisoner is getting more and more restless, and only the sweet taste of young and primitive lifeforms can placate it. Indeed, who is the prisoner and who is the warden?

A second thing I would change is how the Chaos Gods and Daemons are portrayed. For something that is supposed to be unknowable, we do know quite a lot about them. Thanks to Codex:Daemonkin we now even know how many Bloodthirsters Khorne has...

A chaos incursion should be like the movie 'Event Horizon', 'Paranormal Activity' or 'In the mouth of Madness'. Not hordes of violent (and very identical) creatures, but a creeping corruption, with crazy people screaming about things nobody sees but them, with impossible things happening (or not) just out of sight (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NothingIsScarier) or in the corner of your eyes. And when a warp incursion is in full force, you do not fight humanoid creatures with big claws or swords, but your own comrades that suddenly start to speak in tongues and grow claws and fangs, cultists that try to bash their own heads in against you just to make the voices stop, incorporeal living shadows and inanimate objects that seem to have acquired a malicious will. Or is it just in your head? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThroughTheEyesOfMadness) As such, another favourite piece of fluff is the 'Murder Room', in one of the Dark Heresy RPG books. It is about the danger of the power of Khorne. But instead of loads of dog-faced daemons with big axes, it is treated like a murder mystery with supernatural influences. Why did several non-violent adepts suddenly butcher their families in a horrible manner? Have they simply gone insane from years of stress, or did they really find themselves trapped in the mysterious 'Murder Room'? And what is the Murder Room anyway? A coven of Khorne Cultists, a blasphemous hidden altar, or an actual gore-soaked room beyond space and time to which each and every door can open? Chaos Gods and daemons are Lovecraftian Horrors and deserve to be written like that. Everything we think we know about the Chaos gods are just myths spoken by deranged cultists, ancient tomes of contradictory lore and terrifying (but unreliable) impressions from psykers that looked too deeply into the warp. Now I understand this would never be done, as invisible daemonic spirits probably don't sell well as an army, but one can hope.

Finally, writers can go a bit overboard with the GrimDark, from time to time. Despite what the Rulebook says, in the 41th millennium there is more than 'only war'. The Imperium is a place where people are born, live, work, love, pray, raise children, and die. For example, the Cities of Death codex give a short description of an Imperial Hive city. It sounded more like a Gulag that did its best to kill of as many of its inhabitants as soon as possible. Yes, I'm sure there are super-rich and super-poor, but where was the middle class, the artisans, the women, the children, all those factors that make up every city in history? Also, I would like to see it being explored that Imperial Society is not (just) the way it is because everything else is so crappy, but because people in 40k tend to have a different outlook on life. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeliberateValuesDissonance) Sure, to us the Space Marines who nuke a Hive City to destroy a cult seem ruthless, but to the common Imperial Citizenry the Space Marines may seem overly merciful. After all, every man woman and child should have slowly burned at the stake for allowing such heresy to fester among them... Just look at recent real history to see that such a view is hardly unusual...

Lusall
11-01-2016, 14:30
I actually completely agree. To serve both sides the ideal solution for me would be to keep the Necron rebellion but to emphasise a divide between the independent Dynasties and the C'tan devotees. If they brought out a C'tan loyalist supplement similar to the Farsight Enclaves I would be supremely happy.

Exactly. I'd love to see Necrons that still serve the C'tan. It would be more characterful for their to be a divide.


I think the Necrons and C'tan are a good thing. But I do share your dislike of their more overblown aspects, like the completely nonsensical idea that the Nightbringer is the reason why life fears death (and that the Orks don't for the reason that it didn't attack them....). The good things about them were that they are a galactic threat that is organised, unlike Chaos and Orks, and they are not Tyranids which means there are more factions competing for the galaxy than just Chaos, Imperium, Tyranids and arguably Orks - they bring their own background and motives to the table. The problem with the Oldcrons wasn't them but the too great influence of the C'tan, and I sympathise with concerns that the Necrons couldn't be given any kind of character and were really Codex: C'tan. But now with the Newcrons they have both been made less threatening and most significantly, they have been humanised. Now they are no longer a terror that humanity cannot relate to like the Chaos gods, the Tyranid hive mind or the Ork psyche. They might as well have been turned into a long-lost human civilization.

Eh, to each their own. I actually loved the fact that C'tan was the reason mortal races all shared a common "view" of what death looked like. Some of it was a little much, imo. But I also liked the Mars Dragon being a C'tan god. And the tie in with the eye of Isha dimming (closing), then finding out a star that the Nightbringer ate was called the Eye of Isha...that was pretty cool to me. But overall...I agree with the sentiment. They just don't feel scary anymore.

Though...I do disagree that it was bad fan fiction. It really wasn't that bad. :) Just basic. They were trying to make from scratch a faction that didn't have much to it at the time. Mix the old necron book with the new and you have a solid faction, I think.

And I actually think the old Tau brought more to the setting than the new. Back when the Tau were more "good" they were a bright spot in an otherwise miserable Galaxy. Now...that still meant being totally subservient to the "state" and freedom was an illusion...but I guess I preferred that more subtle evil. Now...the big Ethereal (can't remember his name atm, died in the latest campaign book but...isn't dead. Or something.) was a giant ****** and it turns out so are most Ethereals.

Lord Damocles
11-01-2016, 15:39
For starter, I would like to integrate the old Necron fluff into the new background; for example that the C'Tan after their victory over the Old Ones were at the height of their power, but then turned against one another. The Laughing God tricked the Void Dragon into devouring other C'Tan, and then the Deceiver manipulated the Nightbringer into slaying his brothers. Only when they had already torn themselves to pieces did the Necrons have the power to rebel and shatter them.
This is already pretty much the case.

Necron background as it currently stands allows for the Deciever to have tricked the other C'tan to have eaten each other until only four remained (as per 3rd ed. Codex). Shards of consumed rivals remain within each C'tan (as per Dawn of the C'tan).

The Necrons then rebel and shatter the C'tan (as per 5th ed. Codex). In the process the previously consumed shards escape, becoming distinct entities again, and are in turn further shattered by the Necrons (explaining shards of The Arisen, The Burning One, etc.).

Various shards eat each other or re-combine to form Transcendent C'tan (as per Apocalypse/Escalation).
Most are captured by the Necrons and turned into slaves (as per 5th ed. Codex).
Some Necrons remain loyal to certain C'tan (as per The World Engine).
Shards of the Deciever, Nightbringer, Outsider and Void Dragon take their remaining followers and go into hibernation to wait out the decimation of their feeding grounds (as per 3rd ed. Codex).

It would help if GW would actually say that this is the case, though.

Razios
11-01-2016, 18:19
In my case, I dont want a typical "pro-ctan/anti-ctan" faction but that influence of them is hard to pin down.....did they really free from them or their ties are just that strong?

Quantumcolider: that could be done for deamons without taking away their armies, giving a little diversity, help in tyranids codex there is some scenarios where they use more sublety instead of just swarm everything.

It's also a hammer
11-01-2016, 19:37
What about the possibility of one of the lost Primarchs returning? How would the Imperium (the High Lords of Terra in particular) deal with that? Would they let them take control, would they have a choice in the matter? Especially one like The Lion or Russ who were quite strong willed!

Lusall
11-01-2016, 20:33
What about the possibility of one of the lost Primarchs returning? How would the Imperium (the High Lords of Terra in particular) deal with that? Would they let them take control, would they have a choice in the matter? Especially one like The Lion or Russ who were quite strong willed!

As a Dark Angel fan...would love for the Lion to come back. Or for something more to happen with Cypher.

TheSaylesMan
11-01-2016, 21:01
I want to advocate for an Imperial Bank.

I get that intergalactic trade and finance is probably a staggering ordeal given the nature of FTL travel in 40k. I get that the Imperium more closely resembles a federation of worlds given how worlds are more like powers in and of themselves also because of how FTL works. However, I think that there should be an Imperial organization dedicated to the tracking and valuing of currencies from around the galaxy. We all know Terra is the heart of the Imperium given how the tithes go directly to it. So I also believe it is in Terra's interest to issue a currency that serves as a galactic reserve currency. Financial institutions also provide an interesting story element. This would be the bank that planetary governors turn to. Or Rogue Trader dynasties. Hell, it doesn't even necessarily have to be a bank in name. You could call it a Departmento of the Administratum like how the Munitorium is.

quantumcollider
12-01-2016, 07:57
This is already pretty much the case.

Necron background as it currently stands allows for the Deciever to have tricked the other C'tan to have eaten each other until only four remained (as per 3rd ed. Codex). Shards of consumed rivals remain within each C'tan (as per Dawn of the C'tan).

The Necrons then rebel and shatter the C'tan (as per 5th ed. Codex). In the process the previously consumed shards escape, becoming distinct entities again, and are in turn further shattered by the Necrons (explaining shards of The Arisen, The Burning One, etc.).

Various shards eat each other or re-combine to form Transcendent C'tan (as per Apocalypse/Escalation).
Most are captured by the Necrons and turned into slaves (as per 5th ed. Codex).
Some Necrons remain loyal to certain C'tan (as per The World Engine).
Shards of the Deciever, Nightbringer, Outsider and Void Dragon take their remaining followers and go into hibernation to wait out the decimation of their feeding grounds (as per 3rd ed. Codex).

It would help if GW would actually say that this is the case, though.

I agree that it wouldn't be difficult to integrate the these various pieces of fluff, but ever since the 4th edition Necron codex was released all the interesting bits of the 3rd edition codex haven't even been acknowledged, let alone reworked into the new Necron lore. It looks more like it has simple been retconned and now we have to pretend it never happened.

Lord Damocles
12-01-2016, 08:11
4th 5th edition Necron codex was released all the interesting bits of the 3rd edition codex haven't even been acknowledged, let alone reworked into the new Necron lore. It looks more like it has simple been retconned and now we have to pretend it never happened.
Not [explicitly] mentioned =/= retconned.

It depends on what we're counting as 'interesting bits', I suppose, but material relating to the 3rd edition Codex has been re-published since the release of the 5th edition Codex (eg. Nightbringer), and some post-5th material is relatively similar to pre-5th tone/feel/content (eg. Fall of Orpheus, The Outer Reach), or ties neatly with largely unexplored pre-5th material (eg. the three 'mystery C'tan').

Rogue Star
12-01-2016, 09:04
I want to advocate for an Imperial Bank.

Navis Mercantilis.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Merchant_Fleet
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Chartist_Captains
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Merchant_Charter

Edit: In regards to the Necron topic, Lord Damocles is right that really, the background information itself hasn't changed, just how it has been presented. In the first Codex: Necrons, it was mostly how the "Young Races" saw them, the Eldar remembering them from their myths and legends, the Adeptus Mechanicus losing Explorator expeditions on dead worlds and noted abduction of 'Untouchables', etc. The following Necron Codexes have been presented as overview, fact-of-god.

Personally I think a middle ground would be best, largely presenting the information from outsiders, but focusing on the Necrons themselves, rather than the C'tan.

TheSaylesMan
12-01-2016, 21:57
Navis Mercantilis.

That is not what a bank is. That is a loose affiliation of merchants with their own privately owned vessels they use to transport cargo. They do not print or issue currency. They do not give loans. Well, okay, they could. I'm sure this is the kind of society where wealthy families can and do give out loans from their own personal funds. But that's not what I mean. I mean like the U.S's Federal Reserve. It quite obviously cannot have the kind of power and control that organization has given the nature of how the Imperium works. The Bank of Terra could still be a highly influential organization. Perhaps maybe even not a central bank. Perhaps several banks that compete with each other. A Solar Bank. An Ultramar Bank. So on and so forth. I stand by it being a potentially great story element.

Matthueycamo
13-01-2016, 03:16
I don't think there is any point in central imperial bank or several competing ones. For a start tracking currencies would be entirely pointless, most sub-sectors maybe even planets would have a completely different set of exchange rates. It's not possible to centralise that sort of thing across a galaxy and the thousands of systems contained. They don't even have enough contact with all the planets to make a fixed rate workable, it would just lead to so many problems it's not worth it. The resources needed to actually change that around and do it would be colossal. I don't think the Imperium would really be that interested either, it's main taxes are men and materials not money Imperium wide. Money is only ever going to be a localised concern for planetary governors and private individuals depending on how a world is run for which a local exchange rate system that includes the currencies of relatively nearby or important worlds/systems/sectors are taken into account.

Most information it would have considering currency markets move on a second by second basis would be so laughably out of date it's collection would be pointless. Just imagine we found a colony on Mars, FX market information would be nearly 14 minutes out of date by the time it arrived. Obviously said Bank would need a load of astropaths to transfer this knowledge faster than any methods we have now but that can still take hours to send a message between star systems. Sending this information back to Terra would take days/weeks/months depending how far away a system is from Terra. Making it's collection useless.

jbeil
15-01-2016, 11:01
I'd like to see evidence of some of the older parts of the universe in the current milennium - some evidence of the Old Ones' relics or some trace of the old Necron/C'tan Empire (I'll admit I've not yet read the current Necron codex, but I particularly liked the 3rd edition codex in which the Necrons were the tragic slaves of the C'tan).

It would take a more organised mind than mine to work out how all this would work together.

Basically, I want Slann back. Fat psychic lizards forever!

Karegak
21-01-2016, 11:21
I don't think there is any point in central imperial bank or several competing ones.

Whereas forgeworlds and hive worlds make complete sense?

Rogue Star
21-01-2016, 11:34
Whereas forgeworlds and hive worlds make complete sense?

From the mindset of the Imperium they do.

Razios
21-01-2016, 13:50
From the mindset of the Imperium they do.

also GW dosent play out the horrible nature of hives so yeah, it makes sense for the game.

Horus38
21-01-2016, 19:41
I'd love further exploration of the 40k history. In the afterword of Pharos author Guy Haley talked about putting in hints to the "deep history" of 40k and how even something as calamitous as the Horus Heresy is nothing but the latest skirmish to flare up in this ancient ongoing conflict. My vote would be for further tidbits surrounding the Old Ones as that book really does a great job of stoking the mystery which is so integral to the game/setting.

hellharlequin
22-01-2016, 02:23
things I would have added to the wH0k universe: Chaos Eldar (you know the ones the one tht live in the eye of terror)

=Angel=
22-01-2016, 09:24
I'd love further exploration of the 40k history. In the afterword of Pharos author Guy Haley talked about putting in hints to the "deep history" of 40k and how even something as calamitous as the Horus Heresy is nothing but the latest skirmish to flare up in this ancient ongoing conflict. My vote would be for further tidbits surrounding the Old Ones as that book really does a great job of stoking the mystery which is so integral to the game/setting.

Yes. I'd also like to see some evidence of xenos that worshipped chaos in ages past. Stuff like that really grabs me.
There was an ancient sith race in starwars that first used the darkside and though they were probably rubber forehead aliens, it's still interesting.
Think what the skull rune of khorne may have looked like for an arachnid race or an invertebrate species.

Denny
22-01-2016, 09:52
I'd like to add some comedy.

40K used to be much funnier than it was now; the whole Grimdark thing was a parody (kinda like Judge Dredd).
I feel like modern 40K takes itself a little too seriously.

Rogue Star
22-01-2016, 09:56
also GW dosent play out the horrible nature of hives so yeah, it makes sense for the game.

Well the Imperium doesn't really care about the individual people within the Hive-cities no, but we're led to believe things are more 'tolerable' the higher up you go compared to the "Underhive", but Hive Worlds exist as a means to turn an otherwise worthless but potentially strategic planet into a world whose primary export is humans - which might border alien realms so they need a steady influx of bodies for the Guard, or frontier systems to be conquered, etc - rather than endure a longer, more hazardous warp journey back into more populated Imperial sectors.

=Angel=
22-01-2016, 10:38
Well the Imperium doesn't really care about the individual people within the Hive-cities no, but we're led to believe things are more 'tolerable' the higher up you go compared to the "Underhive",
This is very true. From top to bottom you've got

highborn aristocracy dining on exotic imported wines and delicacies
CEO's and figureheads wrangling for political dominance - think the 80's RoboCop board members
Powerful houses/cartels focusing on quotas and industrial espionage/raiding/sabotage
Imperial middle class. These are the career men and facilitators of the above. They are the intermediaries between the above and below. You could potentially get here via promotion or performance, but few will.
Imperial working class. The vast majority of mankind are laborers and so on- unordained engineers, machine operators, educated enough to do the tasks they are assigned. It's a hard thankless life but happiness does exist here- marriages, family, relationships, ales during downtime.
It's often Dickensian, Orwellian and cruel, but life does go on.
Outlaws and Underhive scum. Mad Max, seemingly anarchic gang warfare actually has a purpose and serves the goals of the Imperial Cartels.


The thing is, although grimdark, 40k allows people moments of hope and happiness among the toil and subjection.
That's why its all the more brutal when the happiness is taken away.

You were going to marry your childhood sweetheart? Guard Service.
You've survived a grueling tour of duty and have come back to your home to be with your husband? He's dead now.
Your long-lost friend has returned from guard service? He has been corrupted by the ruinous powers.



Hive Worlds exist as a means to turn an otherwise worthless but potentially strategic planet into a world whose primary export is humans - which might border alien realms so they need a steady influx of bodies for the Guard, or frontier systems to be conquered, etc - rather than endure a longer, more hazardous warp journey back into more populated Imperial sectors.

Well, I'm not so sure. I understood that Hive worlds exist to manufacture and fabricate and that excess humans are a natural byproduct and that shoving them into colony and guard ships is a good way to bleed off pressure.
But while your interpretation also makes sense from a strategic point of view, I don't think Hive cities are planned- I think they just happen over centuries of Humans occupying one area.

Matthueycamo
26-01-2016, 00:14
Whereas forgeworlds and hive worlds make complete sense?

More sense that replying to one line of a much longer post and ignoring the rest certainly.

Karegak
26-01-2016, 16:32
More sense that replying to one line of a much longer post and ignoring the rest certainly.
Brevity is bliss. Quoting and typing is tricky on my phone.

I didn't ignore the rest of the post, I just meant that there are (plentiful) of other concepts that make as little sense as galactic banks.

TheSaylesMan
26-01-2016, 20:34
Brevity is bliss. Quoting and typing is tricky on my phone.

I didn't ignore the rest of the post, I just meant that there are (plentiful) of other concepts that make as little sense as galactic banks.

I think that is fair. I just don't think that reason and sense are high on the Imperium's list of reasons not to do a thing. They tend to throw manpower and human suffering at an issue en mass until the problem is either resolved or everyone is dead. Perhaps I am just ignorant of finance, but aren't your concerns highly dependent on the Imperium using modern day fiat currency? Wouldn't a more primitive system actually be more effective in this scenario? Perhaps not a gold standard, but perhaps some properly byzantine Imperial regulation that dictates that this weight of lithium is worth this weight in gold is worth this weight in carbon and so on and so forth. The absolute value of a man in the Imperium is dictated by his use to the Emperor after all. If the source of all authority comes from 'the Emperor' within the Imperium it wouldn't be a hard sell to claim that the Emperor has declared the absolute worth of all mineral wealth at least. Of course, as is properly Imperial the values would change due to the wants and needs of the Imperium at large (or at least Terra and Mars) so it wouldn't be the absolute value at all but they will swear up and down that its just your imagination it has always been like this. You know, sorta like when people claim that the Pope is infallible and have to come up with excuses for those times he's wrong.

A fundamentally flawed and perhaps even broken financial system that exists only to extract further wealth from the Imperium's vassals beyond the tithes for the sake of a galactic elite feels so very 40k.

Karegak
26-01-2016, 20:43
I think that is fair. I just don't think that reason and sense are high on the Imperium's list of reasons not to do things.

That is what I meant with my first post. If we are going to start debunking ideas based on what is reasonable or not there won't be much Imperium left afterwards.

Matthueycamo
26-01-2016, 23:59
I think that is fair. I just don't think that reason and sense are high on the Imperium's list of reasons not to do a thing. They tend to throw manpower and human suffering at an issue en mass until the problem is either resolved or everyone is dead. Perhaps I am just ignorant of finance, but aren't your concerns highly dependent on the Imperium using modern day fiat currency? Wouldn't a more primitive system actually be more effective in this scenario? Perhaps not a gold standard, but perhaps some properly byzantine Imperial regulation that dictates that this weight of lithium is worth this weight in gold is worth this weight in carbon and so on and so forth. The absolute value of a man in the Imperium is dictated by his use to the Emperor after all. If the source of all authority comes from 'the Emperor' within the Imperium it wouldn't be a hard sell to claim that the Emperor has declared the absolute worth of all mineral wealth at least. Of course, as is properly Imperial the values would change due to the wants and needs of the Imperium at large (or at least Terra and Mars) so it wouldn't be the absolute value at all but they will swear up and down that its just your imagination it has always been like this. You know, sorta like when people claim that the Pope is infallible and have to come up with excuses for those times he's wrong.

A fundamentally flawed and perhaps even broken financial system that exists only to extract further wealth from the Imperium's vassals beyond the tithes for the sake of a galactic elite feels so very 40k.

They just don't really work in practice at all. Most of those systems work in a localised manner and represent the culture, values and circumstances of a civilisation. They are not good at dealing with shocks and tend to come crashing down when the material or situation behind them alters a lot in some way. Such a wide range of cultures, materials and such like in the Imperium makes it very hard to get such a system to function. I would say impossibly hard. And that's probably part of the reason for the tithe system. It's much easier for them to deal with men and material and leave things like finance to a much more localised level.

Throughout the Imperium you can find planets with systems of government of almost any type. The only things required is worship the EoM and pay your tithes. Its not a system where a unified finacual structure is really possible to be centralised.

The current fiat system with fractional reserve banking and central banks evolved broadly speaking because of gradual globalisation. Something on just one planet which the previous systems could increasingly not cope with. If we ever start to colonise our system we will probably have to develop our system still further or add a top layer to it meaning further evolution not regressing backwards.

Different people ascribe different values to things both because of their own preferences and the enviroment they are in. There is planet out there (55 cancri IIRC) with enough diamond on it to make diamond effectivly worth as much as sea water if we ever get to said planet. Meaning on some planets a diamond is worth ten times it's weight in gold and on others it would not even be worth 1% of it's weight. This ignoring the fact of course that Gold would not have a uniform value either from planet to planet. These things only have said value we ascride because they are relatively rare on earth. On another planet perhaps Iron is rare, or clay is rare etc.

Basically even if they tried nobody would take any notice and they would develop their own local unofficial or blackmarket/illegal systems anyway to fit what is in their space region.

There is not following reason and sense and being 100% logical all the time (we ourselves on earth are not) and then there is being completely retarded purposely making somthing that will screw everything up everywhere continuously. They are not the most efficient the Imperiam, it's hard to be when you have so many worlds so far apart and the problems that brings. They are not complete retards though or they would have been crushed long ago.