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Galadrin
28-12-2015, 18:37
I was thinking of how to make combats more survivable and I realized that the armour save modifiers from strength in 4th Edition and onward really have a tremendous impact on lower armour saves, to the point that it never makes sense to give archers light armour because some S4 unit will come along and completely negate the save anyway. Then I started to wonder if Warhammer Fantasy had been doing things backwards all along... What if armour save modifiers from strength affected higher armour saves first and lower saves last, so that S4 would reduce an already substantial 2+ save but left the poor 6+ save alone? So this is what I came up with to replace armour save modifiers from strength:

Armour saves are reduced by -1 if the attacker's Strength score is higher than or equal to the unmodified armour save score. That is, a Strength 3 attack will reduce a 2+ save to 3+ or a 3+ save to 4+, but will not reduce a 4+ or worse save. If the Strength of the attack is 7 or higher, apply a flat penalty instead to all armour saving rolls (-2 for S7, -3 for S8, -4 for S9 and -5 for S10).

The result is that already low and unlikely armour saves are not removed entirely from the game, while heavier armours suffer from a single -1 penalty and thus are still useful, without being overpowered.

What do you think? I should clarify that I mostly play 3rd edition, so attacks are already a bit less deadly (no attacking in ranks, for instance), but I believe this rule could be interesting for any edition to allow you to play smaller games with smaller units and still survive a couple of rounds of combat.

BattleofLund
28-12-2015, 21:23
Just checking: Executioners and White Lions would reduce Demigriff saves by an impressive 1? And first-round Black Orcs (S7) by 2?

theunwantedbeing
28-12-2015, 22:05
Just checking: Executioners and White Lions would reduce Demigriff saves by an impressive 1? And first-round Black Orcs (S7) by 2?

The rule in shorthand.
Armour modifiers start at Strength 7.
There is an additional -1 modifier if your strength is equal to or higher than the armour roll.

So your weapons don't modify armour much at all.
On the plus side, a st3 attack that usually does nothing will now modify 2+ and 3+ saves by a single pip and is much more effective as a result.

It's an interesting idea that really needs to be in rules development :P

Galadrin
29-12-2015, 04:11
Argh I always miss the Rules Development area when I post. Mods, please feel free to teleport this discussion over there.

Unwanted pretty much has it right, but it's not an additional modifier (so a S7 stone thrower would just be a -2 save). Another way to put it is that there is a -2 Save at S7 etc and a -1 Save at lower Strength values as long as the Strength number is equal to or greater than the Save number. If the Save number is higher than the Strength (like a 5+ Save vs Strength 4 or less) then there is no save modifier.

Visually illustrated, that would be:

S10 = -5 Save
S9 = -4 Save
S8 = -3 Save
S7 = -2 Save
S6 = -1 Save
S5 = -1 Save (vs armour 5+ or better)
S4 = -1 Save (vs armour 4+ or better)
S3 = -1 Save (vs armour 3+ or better)
S2 = -1 Save (vs armour 2+ or better)
S1 = -1 Save (vs armour 1+ or better)

I hadn't thought about weapon-specific armour modifiers... Maybe blackpowder weapons like handguns and pistols would always deal at least a -1 Save, regardless of Strength value? Or maybe they would deal an additional -1 Save on top of whatever normal save modifier they generate for high Strength.

Re:Lund's examples, I'm not sure what a demigriff is but essentially yes, any attacker with S6 or lower would only ever reduce armour by -1. The best possible armour save (heavy armour and shield on a barded steed for 2+) could only ever be reduced to a 3+ without resorting to warmachines and the like.

Bubbling in the background is an ulterior motive to, among other things, shrink back unit sizes to their old 80's equivalents, so that 5 knights or 12 spearmen can be considered fairly "large" units with the staying power to survive several rounds of combat. I remember when 6th edition came out and it wasn't uncommon to see entire units of 25 models disappear in a single round of combat—that kind of game is fine for people that like it, but I find games with smaller unit sizes to always be more visually pleasing and manageable (less to paint, less to buy, less to cart around to the hobby store and set up on the table). If one assumes that a single model really represents 60 or 100 soldiers, as they did in the early Warhammer editions, 5 models is more than enough! But playing with later versions, it was always unsatisfying how quickly your carefully painted unit would evaporate from the battlefield. Anyway, please judge the armour save idea on its own merits... This is just food for thought.

Dreadaxe
30-12-2015, 15:43
So maybe that could be use for Mordheim, Warhammer Skirmish and Co.

Ayin
31-12-2015, 22:47
Sometime, set up a game of 8th, but with the following system:

Plate Armour:2+

Heavy Armour:3+

Light Armour:5+

Shield adds +1 to save.

Mounted has NO effect on save (barding adds+1). Best armour a troop on foot can have is 2+.


Just for fun. Leave everything else the same. It plays as a very interesting game. Everyone expects it will wildly alter weapons choices towards Great Weapons, but first of all, weapon options are ALREADY wildly directed towards GW's, and secondly that actually MAKES SENSE as, when armour gets better (full plate eras) people opt for two handed weapons in place of shields.

Drakkar du Chaos
01-01-2016, 12:33
Argh I always miss the Rules Development area when I post. Mods, please feel free to teleport this discussion over there.

Unwanted pretty much has it right, but it's not an additional modifier (so a S7 stone thrower would just be a -2 save). Another way to put it is that there is a -2 Save at S7 etc and a -1 Save at lower Strength values as long as the Strength number is equal to or greater than the Save number. If the Save number is higher than the Strength (like a 5+ Save vs Strength 4 or less) then there is no save modifier.

Visually illustrated, that would be:

S10 = -5 Save
S9 = -4 Save
S8 = -3 Save
S7 = -2 Save
S6 = -1 Save
S5 = -1 Save (vs armour 5+ or better)
S4 = -1 Save (vs armour 4+ or better)
S3 = -1 Save (vs armour 3+ or better)
S2 = -1 Save (vs armour 2+ or better)
S1 = -1 Save (vs armour 1+ or better)

I hadn't thought about weapon-specific armour modifiers... Maybe blackpowder weapons like handguns and pistols would always deal at least a -1 Save, regardless of Strength value? Or maybe they would deal an additional -1 Save on top of whatever normal save modifier they generate for high Strength.

Re:Lund's examples, I'm not sure what a demigriff is but essentially yes, any attacker with S6 or lower would only ever reduce armour by -1. The best possible armour save (heavy armour and shield on a barded steed for 2+) could only ever be reduced to a 3+ without resorting to warmachines and the like.

Bubbling in the background is an ulterior motive to, among other things, shrink back unit sizes to their old 80's equivalents, so that 5 knights or 12 spearmen can be considered fairly "large" units with the staying power to survive several rounds of combat. I remember when 6th edition came out and it wasn't uncommon to see entire units of 25 models disappear in a single round of combat—that kind of game is fine for people that like it, but I find games with smaller unit sizes to always be more visually pleasing and manageable (less to paint, less to buy, less to cart around to the hobby store and set up on the table). If one assumes that a single model really represents 60 or 100 soldiers, as they did in the early Warhammer editions, 5 models is more than enough! But playing with later versions, it was always unsatisfying how quickly your carefully painted unit would evaporate from the battlefield. Anyway, please judge the armour save idea on its own merits... This is just food for thought.

This idea make the WoC so OP it's not even funny... heavy armored units with high amount of attack like 6*2 Khorne Warriors with additional weapons (30 attacks S4 for 220pts) ? Skullcrushers ? All our characters with LOS and 1+ armour save ? More resilient than ever.

Cavalry shouldn't give a +1 armor save in CC but a 6++ (you can stack it with others invulnerable but only in CC, against shoots or magic it's only a +1 armor save)...
Or very heavy armor save (better than 6+ or 5+ or just magical armor) shouldn't be totally cancelled in CC again : you still have a 6+ save even if your opponent is S6 or S7.

Dark Elf
02-01-2016, 08:58
I think the best possible thing to do here is copy 40k. Forget strength modifiers, introduce a new stat for each weapon called armor piercing.

WLBjork
20-02-2016, 22:37
I think the best possible thing to do here is copy 40k. Forget strength modifiers, introduce a new stat for each weapon called armor piercing.

There is.

It's on hand guns, some magic weapons, some spells...