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Tayrod
05-01-2016, 06:44
So there's an finite number of necrons in the Galaxy. These consists of Necrons who are sleeping + Necrons who have already awoken.

Necrons can self repair to a large degree, but can also be destroyed. This means that the number of total necrons (sleeping + awoken) should be declining, unless they have some means of producing new necrons.

In addition only a small number of necrons have something akin to free will, and can controll other necrons. Once this group has been destoryed, this should mean the end of the Necron race.

Or am I missing something?

Geep
05-01-2016, 08:09
Yes, that's about right. That's something I really hate about the 'Newcron' background- Dead Necrons tend to explode more than teleport away, so they're being destroyed and not repaired. Gaining Necron parts to study is also relatively easy now. It really unseats them from their previous place as one of the galaxy's greatest and pretty much never-ending threats (which I consider Chaos and Tyranids to be).

Lord Damocles
05-01-2016, 09:25
Necrons can self repair to a large degree, but can also be destroyed. This means that the number of total necrons (sleeping + awoken) should be declining, unless they have some means of producing new necrons.
Necrons can and do make new bodies, so that's no problem.

The 5th edition Rulebook (pg.178) mentions the creation of new Necron bodies, the Scopios Incident revolved around the building of new Necrons (White Dwarf 249 (UK), pg.69), the World Engine contained 'weaponforges' (Codex: Space Marines (5th ed.), pg.44), 'tomb-forges' are mentioned in 'The Cripple and the Dragon' (White Dwarf 273 (UK), pg.29), Scarabs are noted as reproducing in the 5th ed. Codex: Necrons (pg.45), Scarabs, Spyders, Wraiths, and Stalkers are fabricated in specialised chambers in Black Crusade: Hand of Corruption (pg.102).


Whether new minds/souls/whatever can be encased in necrodermis bodies hasn't ever really been touched on.
Supposedly the Necron ending of Dawn of war: Soulstorm was originally intended to show captured humans being converted into Necron Warriors. 'The Scopios Incident' (White Dwarf 249 (UK), pg.69) may have been implying humans were being converted into Warriors.



In addition only a small number of necrons have something akin to free will, and can controll other necrons. Once this group has been destoryed, this should mean the end of the Necron race.
Lords etc. aren't required to directly control Warriors etc. Warriors and Canoptek constructs are capable of semi-automomous action, and 'higher level' units like Immortals can act independently.
We also have the example of Sarkon (Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.16) where the tomb world's master program controls all of the Necrons.



That's something I really hate about the 'Newcron' background- Dead Necrons tend to explode more than teleport away, so they're being destroyed and not repaired.
Where are you getting 'tend to explode more than teleport away' from? Because that's not what Codex: Necrons (5th ed., pg.5) - which talks about self-destruct contingencies - says.

Denny
05-01-2016, 09:40
A key question is; how many Necrons are there?

Even if they were unable to reproduce, if the number of sleeping Necrons outnumbered the Orks by 30 to 1 it would not really be an issue that no more Necrons could be created; they could still easily destroy all the existing races at the same time with their current forces.

(I doubt the above figure is even remotely accurate, but I don't think we have anything other than vague estimations of how many Necrons are still slumbering)

Tayrod
05-01-2016, 09:55
Whether new minds/souls/whatever can be encased in necrodermis bodies hasn't ever really been touched on.
Supposedly the Necron ending of Dawn of war: Soulstorm was originally intended to show captured humans being converted into Necron Warriors. 'The Scopios Incident' (White Dwarf 249 (UK), pg.69) may have been implying humans were being converted into Warriors.

.

Thank you for the great reply. This is very intresting fluff, and might explain why the Necrons perform "flesh harvests" as detailed in the 7th edition Codex.

Lord Damocles
05-01-2016, 09:58
A key question is; how many Necrons are there?

We get some idea of numbers from the 5th edition description of Immortals (Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.34):

'Countless trillions were destroyed in the final days of the War in Heaven [not clear if this means the bodies were destroyed, or that the minds were lost]. Yet billions more survived.'

The Immortals were 'the very elite of the Necrontyr armies', so they must have been greatly outnumbered by both the regular soldiers and the non-military citizenry - and yet there were trillions of them.

BlazeKaiser
05-01-2016, 10:02
Necrons cant really be destroyed. Their ingame self-repair is basically them just putting themselves back together like the Dark Crusade introo shows necrons blown in half reattaching. More extensive repairs like being liquified just means they teleport away to a repair facility but dont part in battle anymore.

Necrons were an ancient Empire that gave the Old Ones a a great deal of trouble, so there are billions if not trillions of them.

Theocracity
05-01-2016, 13:26
I don't think the destruction of low level Warriors really matters all that much - as noted, there's nothing we know of that would prevent the creation of more. And I'm pretty sure the ones that have retained their sanity make contingencies to avoid being blown up with no chance of resurrection.

But that brings up what I find interesting about the Necron. Repeated reanimation (and the ravages of time) can degrade a Necron's mind, so it's not life that's a limited resource to the Necron - it's sanity. Given the timescale of eternal life, it's almost inevitable that even the most stable Necron lords will eventually go insane, or lose their sentience altogether. And since these mad kings hold the keys to the prison of beings that are just as immortal - the C'tan - it's inevitable that the star gods will eventually be loosed to take their revenge on their former subjects.

I don't think that point gets brought up in the fluff very much, but I enjoy thinking about it. It certainly adds a sense of fatalistic urgency to any given dynasty, especially if its nobility is already off its rocker.

Lupe
05-01-2016, 18:35
My answer about whether or not the Necrons are dying is that they probably are, just by virtue of them existing in the Warhammer 40K universe.

Make no mistake, though. I'm chose to believe they are the single most devastating faction in the galaxy, but they're still fighting an attrition battle.
The only question is if they'll take the galaxy down with them when they lose, or if the galaxy will take THEM down with it when they conquer it.

Now, which of those outcomes would eventually come to pass, I couldn't tell you without a hell of a lot more details about stuff like:
- just how many of them there are to begin with (how many of those are truly sentient)
- how scattered the various tombworlds are
- exactly how divided their dynasties are
- what are the specific limits to some of their technologies (self-repair protocols, resurrection tech, chronomacy, FTL drives, etc). Off topic, but a funny thought I just had, by the way.. I suppose knowing the answer to those questions would be a twisted parallel of knowing the answer to real life stuff like "what happens when we die?" "do miracles exist / why do miracles occasionally happen?" and "where do we come for and what is our purpose?" :))

memitchell747
06-01-2016, 09:44
On the Big Questions of life, I got nothing. My current Big Question is, "Where the Heck did I leave my reading glasses?"

One thing different about Necrons and most other hordes in 40K is there shouldn't be a requirement for most Necrons to be busy maintaining the necessities of life (pun intnded). No need for farmers, or cooks, or Home Depot employees, or doctors, or lifeguards, or entertainers, or ministers, or IT consultants, or car salesmen, or maids, or garbageman, or politicians, or administrators, or maternity leave, or daycare, or infants and elderly. A trillion Necrons could be a trillion Necron warriors. With minimal logistics support.

On the Big Question, "Are Necrons dying?" No, not yet. Why? 'Cause I just bought my 12 year-old son a box of Necron warriors as his first paining project/tutorial. No matter how badly painted, they will soon be haunting the halls of a Space Hulk near here.

=Angel=
06-01-2016, 14:24
Question- if Lords back up their consciousness, is it possible that a backup might do the whole malevolent AI thing and take over Necron computer systems?
Could it upload itself into a body and contest ruler-ship?

memitchell747
06-01-2016, 15:49
It is profoundly pessimistic to think after 65 million years, the Necron computer network is still vulnerable to virus and Malware. I would think any Necron password must include numbers, letters, Caps, special characters, and no less than 30,000 characters. Verified by 50+ Captcha's, and 200 text messages. Surely the Necons saw the movie Independence Day.

Lupe
06-01-2016, 16:17
It is profoundly pessimistic to think after 65 million years, the Necron computer network is still vulnerable to virus and Malware. I would think any Necron password must include numbers, letters, Caps, special characters, and no less than 30,000 characters. Verified by 50+ Captcha's, and 200 text messages. Surely the Necons saw the movie Independence Day.

And someone would still manage to get their password wrong 5 times in a row :))

Itisor
06-01-2016, 16:19
I wonder that can Necrons phase out to a different tomb world than their home one? Ie. if tomb world A is destroyed can its inhabitants escape to tomb world B.

Lupe
06-01-2016, 16:40
I wonder that can Necrons phase out to a different tomb world than their home one? Ie. if tomb world A is destroyed can its inhabitants escape to tomb world B.

I would assume that dynasties with more than one tomb-world would have them all networked, at the very least.

Follow-up questions:


Would it be possible for the teleport protocols to actively search for undiscovered/dormant tombworlds nearby when the signal to the original tomb world is lost?
Do Necron buildings/facilities posses phase-out or self-repair protocols to recover after being destroyed? Are they made of the same necrodermis stuff as the necrons themselves?
What would need to happen for a tombworld for their facilities to be destroyed beyond recovery? Aside from dying stars expanding and literally swallowing the world, what's the minimum level of damage you would need to inflict on a tomb world to make sure it stays dead? Turning a planet into a misty nebula of stardust via kinetic damage? Collapsing the tectonic plates? Just flooding the caves with promethium and setting it on fire?

Lord Damocles
06-01-2016, 16:54
I wonder that can Necrons phase out to a different tomb world than their home one? Ie. if tomb world A is destroyed can its inhabitants escape to tomb world B.
Yes. This happens at the end of Hammer & Anvil when the Obsidian Moon is destroyed (pg.402).

Saunders
06-01-2016, 17:41
In the grand scheme of things, the Necrons currently have a finite number of warriors. That... hasn't really changed, between their previous and current lore backgrounds. Ultimately, they probably have the technology to create new warriors. It's a moot point though, because even the minor dynasties have access to warriors beyond their capability to deploy. On top of that, scores of dynasties have still yet to awaken.

The necrons that went to sleep had beaten both the Old Ones and the C'Tan that made them what they were; the only thing they feared was going head-to-head with an ascendant Eldar empire. The galaxy in its current state is a much less threatening place for them, so I don't think numbers is an issue for them.

Ayin
06-01-2016, 17:59
It really unseats them from their previous place as one of the galaxy's greatest and pretty much never-ending threats (which I consider Chaos and Tyranids to be).

I would argue it puts them somewhere similiar to Eldar: An ancient power whose ability to reproduce their number is vastly less than other races. The difference between them and the Eldar seemingly being that the Necrons have the starting numbers of the peak of their power, where the Eldar have only the slightest fraction of their own. Combined with the Necrons significant ability to repair, and even a devastating loss to a force may not result in significant casualties, effectively meaning they can replace their "losses" with repaired units at a much higher rate than other races can replace theirs with new births.


A key question is; how many Necrons are there?

Even if they were unable to reproduce, if the number of sleeping Necrons outnumbered the Orks by 30 to 1 it would not really be an issue that no more Necrons could be created; they could still easily destroy all the existing races at the same time with their current forces.

(I doubt the above figure is even remotely accurate, but I don't think we have anything other than vague estimations of how many Necrons are still slumbering)


Very true. If the Necrons even number equally to the Eldar they would have a gigantic advantage of replacing casualties much faster from repair than new birth. If they number more similarly to, say, the Tau (a new but still small galactic empire) then they would be an incredibly dangerous force who is not in any point in the near future going to be concerned about total population.


If their empire numbered 1/1000th (or maybe even less) of humanities in it's current state...

Lord Damocles
06-01-2016, 19:56
If their empire numbered 1/1000th (or maybe even less) of humanities in it's current state...
'What the Imperium cannot know is that, should the Necrons ever fully wake and unite, they would face a foe as numerous as themselves.'
Codex: Necrons (7th ed.), pg.12