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WarsmithGarathor94
10-01-2016, 13:25
Hey guys just a quick question regarding the 2nd company
who.is their captain? Does he have a known load out?

Anima
10-01-2016, 15:40
Their latest known Captain I believe is Tor Garradon. He uses a Power Fist and a relic bolt pistol called the Spartean. However Garradon was only the Captain of the second for about a year. 998.M41-999.M41, before he returned to the third Company to rebuild it.
Before Garradon the Captain of the second was Ton Helion, but not much is known about him I don't think.
They'll have to have a new Captain after Garradon, but as far as I know he's totally unknown.

kamedake88
10-01-2016, 15:41
They do not have a named second company captain at the moment. During the 13th Black Crusade it was a marine by the name of Tailo but he essentially died holding a breach during a battle. In typical marine fashion he was turned into swiss cheese but managed to hold out until some tech marines could put him on ice to later be interred in a Dreadnought sarcophagus.

There is no mention of his loadout but please remember that unless a captain is the bearer of some sort of relic of the chapter they will usually fight with wargear most suited to the battle they are going to take place in.

@Anima Tor Garradon is the captain of the third after Lysander is promoted back to the captaincy of the first.

WarsmithGarathor94
10-01-2016, 16:34
Ah cheers guys so my captain in terminator armour with Burming Blade and Storm Bolter/primarchs wrath dosent break cannon then

Fen
10-01-2016, 19:09
@Anima Tor Garradon is the captain of the third after Lysander is promoted back to the captaincy of the first.
But then he gets promoted to the second as Anima said


998.M41 The Vigilance Crusade
Following the death of Captain Ton Helion, Captain Garadon assumes command of the 2nd Company. The newly-promoted Captain Eshara leads the 3rd Company on the Crusade of Vigilance – a campaign that sweeps the Necrons of the Trozokh Dynasty from the hive worlds of Hanorius. After driving the invaders from the system, Eshara joins forces with Garadon’s 2nd Company to perform a planetstrike that leaves the tomb world of Pharagaris in ruins.

So,for at least 963->998M41 Ton Helion is captain of the second (we dont know how long he held the position before that),then Garadon for one year

He goes back to the third after the events of the Storm of Iron novel (where the third under captain Eshara is wiped out to a man) to help rebuild the sentinels.Someone cared enough about Storm of Iron to add this detail to Sentinels of Terra and avoid making it another canon conflict

Inquisitor Engel
10-01-2016, 19:45
Since the 13th Black Crusade was wiped from canon and never happened, and the information around that time had a guy named Tailo leading them, it's a safe bet that's who's currently in charge, though we don't know anything about him that comes to mind.

Fen
10-01-2016, 20:02
Since the 13th Black Crusade was wiped from canon and never happened, and the information around that time had a guy named Tailo leading them, it's a safe bet that's who's currently in charge, though we don't know anything about him that comes to mind.

Storm of iron is still canon because it happened right before the crusade (sadly,as an IF player i hate that book for obvious reasons),see Honsou still making mess around in the UM novels (and as i saida above,sentinels of terra directly references the third being wiped out on Hydra Cordatus)

And that other guy...I think he's mentioned in the Sons of Dorn novel...If he's the one,it's explained there that he demoted himself to scout company captain (well,he wanted to go on a solo "to the death" pigrimage but Pugh puushed him to reconsider) as a punishment for failing in one of the various crusades against the Tau (first damocles most likely)....I should pick that book up again and check..

BUT

Keep in mind that SoD is such a dreadful book that it has been completly ignored even in BL fiction following it so i'd consider the other versions above that one....

Lord Damocles
10-01-2016, 20:20
Yeah, the events of Storm of Iron were retconned so hard, that you can head on over here (http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/storm-of-iron-ebook.html) and buy the novel right now.

...wait, what?

The events of the Eye of Terror campaign have been referenced many times since the conclusion (eg. Atlas Infernal, Forge of Mars trilogy, Codex: Cult Mechanicus).

Leftenant Gashrog
11-01-2016, 00:24
The 13th Black Crusade was seemingly wiped from canon in the 5th edition Space Marine Codex as it's beginning should have been mentioned on the timeline but it wasn't.

Its beginning is the final entry in a number of the current codex timelines however including vanilla marine, Dark Angel and Imperial Knights, so it's clearly been un-wiped.

Lord Damocles
11-01-2016, 06:54
The 13th Black Crusade was seemingly wiped from canon in the 5th edition Space Marine Codex as it's beginning should have been mentioned on the timeline but it wasn't.
By that logic, every event not mentioned on the timeline has been retconned - which is clearly an insane proposition.

An event not being mentioned, and an event being retconned (ie. actively being written out or altered) are not synonymous.

Inquisitor Engel
11-01-2016, 12:28
Yeah, the events of Storm of Iron were retconned so hard, that you can head on over here (http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/storm-of-iron-ebook.html) and buy the novel right now.

...wait, what?

The events of the Eye of Terror campaign have been referenced many times since the conclusion (eg. Atlas Infernal, Forge of Mars trilogy, Codex: Cult Mechanicus).

The Cult Mechanics Codex are the first in-game to reference it at all. Eldrad is still alive, for one. Cadia isn't a wasteland. Atlas Infernal and Forge of Mars (and the Cain books IIRC) deliberately take place after 13th Black Crusade, but as far as the setting of the game itself, Abaddon is still juuuuust about to launch it.

Lord Damocles
11-01-2016, 13:14
The Cult Mechanics Codex are the first in-game to reference it at all.
Both the 5th ed. Codex: Imperial Guard and Codex: Astra Militarum reference it directly in Creed's background.


Eldrad is still alive, for one.
By 'still alive' do you mean 'has rules'?

Because plenty of characters who are categorically dead have rules (eg. Tycho) (and note that the timeline in the 7th ed. Codex: Blood Angels doesn't say that Tycho died, either).


Cadia isn't a wasteland.
Cadia wasn't a total wasteland at the end of the campaign anyway.


Atlas Infernal and Forge of Mars (and the Cain books IIRC) deliberately take place after 13th Black Crusade, but as far as the setting of the game itself, Abaddon is still juuuuust about to launch it.
So are you saying that background which directly follows on from the events of the campaign (eg. Atlas Infernal) doesn't count as part of the setting?

Or are you claiming that Abaddon is just about to launch his crusade within those works as well?

Or that there are two settings - a just before the campaign, and a separate sometime after the campaign?
If the tabletop game (pre campaign) and the written/Black Library background (post campaign) are two separate settings, then how come Creed is Lord Castellan in the tabletop setting?

Fen
11-01-2016, 13:23
At the moment the 13th crusade hasn't happened

Yet

It just started.Most* of the recent references to it deal with starting blows on the chaos side and imperial forces being recalled to answer them

So yes,Eldrad IS still alive and Cadia isnt an half ruin,and at the same time Abaddon is pushing into imperial space


*I say most because there is the odd part here and there that seems to operate on the idea that the 13th happened....But the same thing was going on with WHFB,there are books that deal with the aftermath of Storm of chaos published way past the point when SoC was clearly retconned

Probably stuff written/planned before the retcons happened that still got the green light/was too far into production to be changed (or,more simply,GW doesnt care about canon clashes most of the time and no-one got around to fix them)

Lord Damocles
11-01-2016, 13:29
At the moment the 13th crusade hasn't happened
So explain why Creed is Lord Castellan. Why Priests of Mars features Creed's address at Tyrok Fields. Why Codex: Cult Mechanicus mentions the fall of Mordrax. Why Atlas Infernal is all about what Czvak did after being rescued by the Harlequins. Why Cadian Blood is set several years after the assault on Cadia. Etc.

Fen
11-01-2016, 13:32
Did you read all my post?That's the answer

Lord Damocles
11-01-2016, 13:38
So Codex: Astra Militarum was planned/written before they decided to retcon the events back in 5th edition?
I don't find that convincing at all.

Similarly, claiming that GW just don't care about canon conflicts doesn't stand up - since there's only a canon conflict if we assume/assert that there has actually been a retcon - which the canon doesn't support.
Dismissing the canon as being in conflict, and then using this as evidence that there has been a retcon, which in turn proves that the canon is in conflict is a circular argument.

Fen
11-01-2016, 13:45
So Codex: Astra Militarum was planned/written before they decided to retcon the events back in 5th edition?

7th C:SM states that Abbadon has just started invading imperial space on the eve of the new millennium and the space marines are forced to answer him.7th C:Crafworlds does the same.6th ed. C:SM does,once again,the same

If i'm not mistaken,Medusa just comes under attack in Clan Raukaan

I have a recent BL short somwhere around that deals with a plan enacted by Thypus to sabotage the star forts keeping watch on the Eye so that the Terminus Est can join the crusade that is just starting


Etc etc...

The 13th is still happening as i said...But the way it went into the campaign isnt canon anymore because it has yet to end,the clock has been turned back a few hours;the opening blows are still mentioned,everything else isnt...

And yes,once again,that's the exact same thing they did with fantasy (everything was turned back to "Archaon is massing his forces at the border with Kislev" and we know how far the retcon went there),so it's not that strange of an idea that they are doing it

P.s:

Why Cadian Blood is set several years after the assault on Cadia. Etc.
Sword of justice and Sword of vengeance are 2 fantasy books published around the same year as cadian blood (one the year after,one a 2 years later if i'm not mistaken)

Both are set firmly in the aftermath of Storm of chaos.

Lord Damocles
11-01-2016, 13:51
Not all background is set at the same point in time.

See also the Beast Arises series. Just because arbitrary publication X is set pre campaign doesn't mean that all background is set at that point in time.

Inquisitor Engel
12-01-2016, 21:47
The big one is that Eldrad's description states that he DOES do things. All of his descriptors and verbs are in the present tense. No mention of his foray into the Talisman of Vaul, etc.

Lord Damocles
13-01-2016, 07:39
The big one is that Eldrad's description states that he DOES do things. All of his descriptors and verbs are in the present tense. No mention of his foray into the Talisman of Vaul, etc.
Again:

Not all background is set at the same point in time.

Eldrad's background entry is set before the campaign. Constrast it, for example with Maugan Ra's entry from the same book (Codex: Eldar (7th ed.), pg.107) which talks about how he '...has brought hope from the unlikeliest of places, rescuing the lost craftworld of Altansar from its incarcerations within the Eye of Terror' - That's a direct reference to events from the campaign.



The latest release (http://www.blacklibrary.com/the-beast-arises/predator-prey/predator-prey-ebook.html) by Black Library is set in .M32 - but that doesn't mean that the everything which occurred after this in the timeline (almost everything ever published baring the Horus Heresy series) has been retconned.

Eldrad's Codex entry is set prior to the 13th Black Crusade - but that doesn't mean that everything which occurs after this is retconned, either*.

*And if it did, then Ra's background entry which is clearly set at a later date would counter-retcon it, I guess..?

Rogue Star
13-01-2016, 09:02
I just think GW has chosen to show off the time line leading up to the 13th Black Crusade. Just because it ends on the 13th Black Crusade about to be launched doesn't mean it's been retcon'd out. It means we as fans have future knowledge of events what happen beyond this point. So yes Eldard is technically alive, but we know when and how he's going to die. It's not different from refighting historical battles during WWII - we still know how it's going to progress and end.

Ayin
14-01-2016, 20:43
Seems more similar to the Fantasy version of the 13th crusade, with some printed material still referencing it, but with the newest printings and the most involved factions (specifically Chaos) having been moved back to it just being launched and new releases detailing the situation.

Saunders
22-01-2016, 20:42
Couple notes:

From an Eldar standpoint, the 13th Black Crusade has been retconned. Eldrad has yet to go into battle, and the events of the webway war (Ahriman's attempt to storm the Black Library, and Maugan Ra's quest for Altansar) have been moved back on the timeline to take place *before* Abaddon launches his crusade. Ahriman has already been thwarted and Maugan Ra brought Altansar out of the Eye of Terror before Abaddon launched his first ships against the Cadia Gate.

Outside of that I can't say, with the exception of Cadia. As described in the final results of the campaign, it was reduced to a blasted wasteland where the imperials remain in deadlock with the firmly entrenched forces of chaos. I'll have to see if I can dig up the exact wording.

<edit> here it is, from the final campaign newsletter.
Cadia
The bleak moors of Cadia are reduced to a barren, crater-pocked wasteland, blasted by orbital torpedoes, super-heavy artillery and the footfall of titans. The Vilklas and Andur defence lines have collapsed under the relentless pressure of a million frenzied cultists, traitors and mutants, and the Cadian High Command has been forced to relocate to Kasr Gallan on the far side of the Caducades Sea. Though the Imperial Navy is in control of the inter-system space lanes, Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell in the opening days of the Black Crusade. The defenders of Cadia are now deployed around Kasr Gallan and throughout the Wastes, resolute that not a backward step shall be taken. The order is given- ‘stand at Cadia, or damn the Imperium of Mankind to the depredations of Chaos for all eternity’.

Lord Damocles
23-01-2016, 19:11
From an Eldar standpoint, the 13th Black Crusade has been retconned. Eldrad has yet to go into battle, and the events of the webway war (Ahriman's attempt to storm the Black Library, and Maugan Ra's quest for Altansar) have been moved back on the timeline to take place *before* Abaddon launches his crusade. Ahriman has already been thwarted and Maugan Ra brought Altansar out of the Eye of Terror before Abaddon launched his first ships against the Cadia Gate.

What are you basing these various claims on, exactly?

Saunders
23-01-2016, 23:34
"998.M41 The Seeker Denied - A Coalition of masques battle to stop Ahriman entering the Black Library, with aid from Craftworlds Ulthwe and Lugganath." from the Harlequins codex, because I don't have the Craftworld Eldar codex in front of me at the moment. Ahriman being expelled from the Webway has been moved back to taking place a year before the 13th Black Crusade. His expulsion by the Eldar before he reached the Black Library was the culmination of the Eldar's efforts in the campaign, and the breach was what drew them to war in the first place.

Additionally, regarding Maugan Ra and Altansar, the CWE timeline's latest entry is essentially "The 13th Black Crusade Begins" and yet it speaks nothing of the conclusion. Yet the codex writes of how Maugan Ra has already brought Altansar out of the Eye of Terror, and they have already been met by other Craftworlds.

Lord Damocles
20-02-2016, 17:44
"998.M41 The Seeker Denied - A Coalition of masques battle to stop Ahriman entering the Black Library, with aid from Craftworlds Ulthwe and Lugganath."
There's absolutely no reason that this couldn't be an entirely separate event to that which occurred during the 13th Black Crusade.

The Crusade wasn't the only (or first) time that Ahriman had breached the webway and/or threatened the Black Library, after all - his assault on Craftworld Alurmen during the Cerberus War (in or after 998.M41 and just prior to Abbadon attacking Cadia) (Battlefleet Gothic Magazine 13, pgs.21, 25), or his attack on Arcadia (in or after 999.M41) (Dawn of War: Tempest), for example. Codex: Dark Eldar (7th ed.) has a timeline entry where the Thousand Sons breach the webway in ~500.M41 (from memory, so vague dating).


There was, as far as I'm aware, no mention of Lugganath's involvement in defence of the Black Library during the Eye of Terror campaign.