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sedgey
11-01-2016, 12:40
I'm an 8th edition player with plenty of existing armies (elves of all flavours, undead, warriors of chaos), and have just started a dwarf one. However, I only really like the aesthetic of the newer 8th edition models and the Forge World dwarf command set. The older models have character, but don't fit in well with the newer ones, and I don't want to add a load of models I'm not in love with to my painting mountain.

I was hoping the new AoS Slayers would be good, but they don't appeal at all. Hopefully the "Steamhead Duardin" release, whenever that comes, has good-looking models that can represent 8th ed units, but I don't have high hopes. I have looked at other manufacturers, but none have models I like that fill the main gaps.

With that in mind, is it possible to build anything approaching a decent army with just the 8th edition models? Thats:

Lords/Heroes:
Lord (FW)
Thane BSB (FW)
Dragon or Daemon Slayer (FW + GW)
Belegar/Thane or Lord on oath-stone
Grimm Burloksson/Engineer
Runelord/Runesmith (x2)

Core:
Longbeards (hw+shield or great weapons)

Special:
Hammerers
Ironbreakers
Gyrocopter

Rare:
Irondrakes
Gyrobomber

It's obviously lacking core models like warriors/thunderers/quarrelers, and is utterly devoid of war machines. Is there any way a half-decent army can be built within these limits, and how could it be played? I'm not looking for a massive army - 2000 points-ish would be fine.

Lord Dan
11-01-2016, 13:53
Is there any way a half-decent army can be built within these limits, and how could it be played? I'm not looking for a massive army - 2000 points-ish would be fine.
I haven't played 8th in a while, however if I recall this was a pretty standard build:

Big block of Stubborn Longbeards
Big block of Hammerers
Fleet of Gyrocopters
Unit of Irondrakes
Assorted war machines
Characters seasoned to taste

So...basically your list, except that you'll need to find a way to add some war machines. And you will need to add some war machines.

sedgey
11-01-2016, 15:19
Thanks. I had a feeling I'd be told I needed those warmachines, but it's good to hear that it's just those I'm short on, and that I wouldn't have to work out a way of converting large infantry units.

Lord Dan
11-01-2016, 16:22
Thanks. I had a feeling I'd be told I needed those warmachines, but it's good to hear that it's just those I'm short on, and that I wouldn't have to work out a way of converting large infantry units.

You need them only because your list will have a real difficult time tackling certain things otherwise: monsters, opposing war machines, fast cavalry, etc. There was a short-lived wave of lists in which almost the entire Dwarf army Vanguarded as a way to reduce the need for War Machines, however even those had a cannon or two and as soon as people figured out how to counter the gimmick it quickly fell out of favor.

Replicant253
12-01-2016, 07:15
If you like Avatars of War stuff you can add slayers and Rangers/Quarrellers to your list.

Even with your self imposed retriction you can make a decent nice looking army though, if not a little boring as apart from the gyro you are essentially just armoured infantry, but that is an accusation you can level at the Dwarf army in general, just in your case it is a little more acute.

GrandmasterWang
12-01-2016, 13:57
I think you can make a fine and fun to play dwarf army using just those models.

If you aren't playing in a super competitive meta you do NOT need the warmachines and you can make a nice theme list.

Dwarfs are my main army and i have over 8k of them. Just using those units try experimenting with different runic banners etc to see what works and you enjoy.

Due to the theme of your army you should get a lot of practice with the gyrocopters and bombers as these will be crucial ingredients.

A total of 3+ (bombers & gyros) is really going to increase the effectiveness of this list vs a lot of foes.

Your irondrakes should probably get the firing upgrade also for extra hitting power.

Hope this helps.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

kwanchai
12-01-2016, 23:16
If you like Avatars of War stuff you can add slayers and Rangers/Quarrellers to your list.

Even with your self imposed retriction you can make a decent nice looking army though, if not a little boring as apart from the gyro you are essentially just armoured infantry, but that is an accusation you can level at the Dwarf army in general, just in your case it is a little more acute.

Listen to this man, this is exactly as I did, for the same reason as the OP. Tho I like the old GW slayers, the Quarrellers really did not appeal to me, AoW Pathfinders were the perfect substitution, they even come with great weapons as well.

sedgey
13-01-2016, 14:51
Thanks for the replies. I don't love the AoW models, but I like them enough that I'd be willing to include the Slayers, plus the Pathfinders (probably as Rangers, possibly as Quarrellers). That would certainly help with the issue Replicant253 raised that the army is otherwise a rather same-y collection of heavy infantry. The unit I'd most like to add from a tactical point is Miners, but I haven't come across a good-looking alternative to the GW models yet.

The 3+ gyros looks like a sound suggestion, and I'll definitely be picking up a few of those. The vanguarding gimmick sounds amusing, and I might give that a go once or twice.

Can dwarf combat units work in blocks of 20? A lot of the advice I've read suggests you need massive blocks/hordes of 30+.

Lord Dan
13-01-2016, 15:16
Not for much other than holding things up. I ran a list with two stubborn blocks of 20 sword-and-board Longbeards that were pretty much immoveable.

Ayin
13-01-2016, 18:55
Thanks for the replies. I don't love the AoW models, but I like them enough that I'd be willing to include the Slayers, plus the Pathfinders (probably as Rangers, possibly as Quarrellers).

The Pathfinders are great looking models (really just a great example of fantasy Dwarf Rangers like the Iconic Pathfinder Ranger that is sized perfectly to go with Warhammer) and the Slayers are good and can be beautiful when given some love with bits from the GW range, some axe swaps and bits really help them with character.


Can dwarf combat units work in blocks of 20? A lot of the advice I've read suggests you need massive blocks/hordes of 30+.

The problem with them in blocks of 20 is that you're not putting out a lot of attacks (two ranks of 5), and also don't have a lot of ranks, so you can easily get held up by big scrub units like Goblins or Skaven, and won't do great in the end against elite combat units either. The best they do, as Lord Dan said, is tie things up, like Monsters or Chariots, but with comparatively low movement, your ability to dictate those combats is pretty slim, especially absent war machines to force those things to (perhaps recklessly?) move towards you.

theunwantedbeing
13-01-2016, 21:12
The problem with them in blocks of 20 is that you're not putting out a lot of attacks (two ranks of 5), and also don't have a lot of ranks, so you can easily get held up by big scrub units like Goblins or Skaven, and won't do great in the end against elite combat units either. The best they do, as Lord Dan said, is tie things up, like Monsters or Chariots, but with comparatively low movement, your ability to dictate those combats is pretty slim, especially absent war machines to force those things to (perhaps recklessly?) move towards you.

Being held up isn't really the issue, it's that 20 wounds isn't a lot of damage you can take before the unit is effectively usless.

Dictating combats is more a case of not putting anything where you aren't okay with it having to fight a round of combat there.
You'll often get charged by anything faster, but so will almost any infantry.
There's always the chance they'll fail their charge and you can charge them in return of course.

As for making enemies charge you by taking lots of war machines, it doesn't work.
Leave a gap for them that they can safely move into, they'll stick to it, similarly the enemy is less likely to sit back and take pot shots to make a hole in your stuff if one already exists.

Sarael
13-01-2016, 22:00
You can easily get by with 2 bombers and 3 copters. You CAN use the longbeards/hammerers box for basic dwarf warriors, just use hammerer heads and HW+Shield or the axe heads for their GWs and don't put the icon on top of the unit's std brr and they'll look different enough, especially with a "rougher" paint job, or less shiny armor.

I was going to do that exact thing, painting my Longbeards with gray beards to distinguish them from the brown, black, and red bearded warriors.

Smooth Boy
13-01-2016, 22:18
I must be alone but I always thought the Hammerers looked fine, I know the style of armour is different but they're supposed to be the kings guard aren't they? Looking back at the 2nd generation hammerers I couldn't face them.

GrandmasterWang
14-01-2016, 01:36
Units of 20 dwarfs can be used effectively however they are more difficult to get the best out of for the reasons mentioned. Units of 20 can work great as anvils but only with 'magical standards' either in the unit or nearby on the BSB as they will lose steadfast quickly. The stubborn banner is a good one if you want to run anvil units of 20. I personally have had some great success using a unit of 21 Hammerers as a 'Hammer' unit :) . This relies on them being able to engage a held up enemy unit on their terms. A 7 3 unit of hammerers is no joke on the charge. With the champ a total of 22 Strength 7 attacks at Weaponskill 5 (potentially with hatred rerolls) can decimate almost anything. I can recall this 'mere' 21 strong unit absolutely decimating a Gutstar (Ironguts strike at the same time as the hammerers).

One really fun list i liked to play sometimes was my various 'no black powder' attack lists. A strollaz unit of Ironbreakers with Oathstone i would sometimes march up the centre but the crux of the list was 3 separate units of miners and a 30 strong unit of Rangers. This list gets all up in the opponents business and with the scouts, vanguards and ambushes can attack from all sides!

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

sedgey
15-01-2016, 12:50
I was thinking the Hammerers might work as 7 x 3 with a character in - I'll give that a go, and if necessary expand the unit.

Sarael - thanks for the tip on making warriors. I think the armour is a bit too ornate for regular warriors, and my painting isn't good enough to roughen that up/smarten the actual Hammerers/Longbeards enough to distinguish them. If you do get yours painted up, I'd love to see pictures, as that could inspire me to give it a go.

I'm currently planning to go for roughly this as my army, with characters/runes to be tweaked as necessary.

Core:
20 Longbeards, hw + shield, stubborn (might up this to 30 of them)
20 Quarrellers (Pathfinders) - great weapons (alternately used as Rangers depending on whether my core allowance is filled)

Special:

20 Hammerers, 7 x 3, with at least one character in
20 Ironbreakers
20 Slayers (AoW models), again 7 x 3
2-3 Gyrocopters
Possibly a cannon

Rare:

10 Irondrakes
1-2 Gyrobombers

My games are not super-competitive (though I have come across the occasional 'unkillable' Daemon Prince), so I think I should be able to manage with that.

Rhaivaen
17-01-2016, 11:06
Cibor does lovely rangers and miner types of Dwarves...

sedgey
17-01-2016, 11:12
Do they fit with GW/AoW ones scale-wise?