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Hellebore
09-07-2006, 23:41
This was actually prompted by a discussion in the Fantasy Background Forum.

You see, I really LIKE the C'tan, not necessarily for their image/abilities/goals but for their existence.

They haven't, like many people claim, been crowbarred into the fluff.

The Yngir, a race of demigods fought with the Eldar deities in the War in Heaven.

This existed in 2nd edition. Now, you could assume that this was a parable, or that it had some truth, in which case the Yngir had to be SOMEBODY.

The Old Ones were laid low, and faded out. A catastrophe occurred that all but wiped them out. SOMETHING had to do this, and if it wasn't the c'tan and the necrons, it would have been sombody ELSE.

I have never been comfortable with the idea that humanity achieved technological supremecy in less than 20,000 years, while other races (like the eldar) had been around for MILLIONS to get there. This smacks of anthropocentricity where humanity, no matter its flaws, will always triumph.

I find it far more palatable that humans LOOTED alot of their tech and retroengineered it- cheated if you will. In fact the Tau built their warp technology besed on a conveniently crashed ship on their moon, so there is precedent.

Now, if Mars is a tomb world, finding the tech on it would have been a realistic achievement, considering it is so close.

This would have in turn allowed an exponential colonisation rate, as the tech was right on the doorstep.

So, these are some of the main reasons I feel the c'tan are a good addition to 40k, what do other people think?

Hellebore

Gen.Steiner
10-07-2006, 00:27
I don't think that humanity did achieve "technological supremacy." Certainly not in comparison to the Eldar!

Other than that, I'm personally ambivalent about the C'tan, I don't care one way or another. They're just another set of gods. That said, I really hope that the Omnissiah isn't a C'tan.

Captain Stern
10-07-2006, 02:31
Humanity had The Emperor to help it along.

Son of the Lion
10-07-2006, 03:07
I thought humanity had been quite advanced before the emperor, and had fallen into decay/strife. Can't be sure since I don't have my RT timeline with me.
Either way, I'm not sure humankind have ever achieved supremecy, just a wide spread prescence in the galaxy. Also, you could argue that Eldar took millions of years to achieve their 'dominant' position because the evolution of their technology went hand in hand with a focus on cultural and artistic progression, whereas humans (like Tau) were more single minded in their approach.
I personally don't mind the C'tan, as far as the 'ancient Star gods that had a hand in the creation/advancement of the universe' aspect goes, but I do object to the 'C'tan/Necrons behind every mystery/conspiracy' idea. The whole 'machine god as hidden C'tan theory' gets my vote as lamest fluff change ever. Instead of being a clever and ironic twist, I think (if introduced as 'fact') it would detract hugely from the imagery of the AM and the Imperium in general.

Zzarchov
10-07-2006, 03:11
Humanity never really did achieve supremacy...the robots it let think for it however...they seemed to do pretty well until they tried to take over, and were defeated by humans and loyal robots. Just the way I envisioned humans leaping ahead so much (and then having to pay the piper)

Born Again
10-07-2006, 04:41
I like the C'Tan, and the Machine God being one. Can't really say why, I just think they're a good addition to the fluff, and add an extra dimension as opposed to Imperium fighting against Chaos. Humanity is far from technologically superior, and what it does have it got by forcing it. If discovering technology can be compared to reaching the center of a hedge maze, the eldar spent many long hours wandering the paths to finally find the tech undamaged, whereas the Imperium barge through all the walls with a giant hedge trimmer, but stumble when they reach the middle and scratch up the tech as well.

Twisted Ferret
10-07-2006, 04:56
I like the idea of another, mysterious set of star gods - a power different from Chaos, a counterweight - but I really dislike the idea of the Omnissiah being the Void Dragon. The Machine God is not some dirty C'tan! All hail the Machine God!!!11

Khaine's Messenger
10-07-2006, 05:24
So, these are some of the main reasons I feel the c'tan are a good addition to 40k, what do other people think?

Once the hype died down, I learned to not mind them so much. The only thing I don't particularly like about them is how they added a different era for discussion and then left the intervening years near-completely blank. The Machine God controversy added a bit more of a schismatic slant to the AdMech, which is imho a nice touch. And while I wouldn't try to over-emphasize the notion that humanity may have got a boost from others, the notion is still valid.

(And haven't any of you read Soul Drinkers? The Machine God and the Emperor are just a greater daemon of Tzeentch.... :chrome: )

El_Machinae
10-07-2006, 11:05
I just like the idea of Sun-sized lifeforms. I was reading a chapter the other day about how much processing power is available if you convert more and more matter into computers. And the numbers are huge.

The amount of potential brain-power of these creatures (while not fixed by fluff) is huge.

PS: I'm fond of the concept of humans achieving localised technological superiority, but that it doesn't hold a stick to some of their competitors.

Yodhrin
10-07-2006, 11:14
I cant do anything about them, so I ignore them. The Yngir, the Necrons, the Star Gods mythos, it could have all been added without subverting everyone else's background material, which is what they've done. You just gave a perfect example yourself; a single, ambiguous Necron fluff tidbit which can be interpreted several ways has turned into "TEH MACHINE GOD IS TEH NECRON LOLZ!" and "humanity never achieved anything, they just stole it all from the C'Tan".

As far as Im concerned, Necrons will remain as the "Unclassified Xenos Raiders" they were in Second Edition until such time as GW refines their background and sort out this whole "AdMech are C'Tan puppets" thing.

athamas
10-07-2006, 12:15
c'tan and necrons are not a problem, and they fit ok ish into the background...

the problem is that a c'tan should ne be on the table!


it east sun's... it is almost a god, yet it is represented on the table,

jfrazell
10-07-2006, 12:18
1) No "god" should be on the battlefield in what is essentually a squad level game. So if you take that out.

2) I don't mind the necrontyr race and the concepts underlying that. But I wouldn't have made them the all consuming end times. Proponents have really taken this to the extreme, that even their grunt soldiers are effectively unkillable. In addition they did subvert a lot of the old fluff, they did in fact "shoe horn" them into to a massive amount of background.

3) To the technology issue and tying everything in. As with the Tau, why do humans have to be tied into an older race? In three thousand years, despite collapsing civilizations (Roman, ancient Chinese) we've gon e from noog like fire to noog land on moon. If an energy efficient method of breaching and utilizing the warp were discovered, we'd go through the galaxy like a disease. The Tau are no different. Frankly the concept that everything has to be tied t the Old Ones or Necrons to have been interesting for about five minutes, but now incredibly old and boring.

4) Ctan. I do not like the Ctan. The whole concept of stellar remoras is just incredibly lame. Now they are tied into everything. Blech. Necrontyr were good enough.

azimaith
10-07-2006, 12:25
1) No "god" should be on the battlefield in what is essentually a squad level game. So if you take that out.

This is where I agree. Why in the world would someone put a god on the table top for a skirmish, i'm sure the C'tan have more important things to do. Avatars of gods? Ok, but the gods themselves, silly.



2) I don't mind the necrontyr race and the concepts underlying that. But I wouldn't have made them the all consuming end times. Proponents have really taken this to the extreme, that even their grunt soldiers are effectively unkillable. In addition they did subvert a lot of the old fluff, they did in fact "shoe horn" them into to a massive amount of background.

Well unfortunately everythings pretty much an all consuming doomsday race. Tyranids are, chaos is, necrons are. Its supposed to make the galaxy grim I suppose.



3) To the technology issue and tying everything in. As with the Tau, why do humans have to be tied into an older race? In three thousand years, despite collapsing civilizations (Roman, ancient Chinese) we've gon e from noog like fire to noog land on moon. If an energy efficient method of breaching and utilizing the warp were discovered, we'd go through the galaxy like a disease. The Tau are no different. Frankly the concept that everything has to be tied t the Old Ones or Necrons to have been interesting for about five minutes, but now incredibly old and boring.

The old ones are the answer to why the galaxy essentially has life. As for humans getting technology from the necrons, its hard to argue. When was the last time a necron used a plasmagun or warp drive? I think its quite interesting that the Ad-mech worshipped a "far older power" on Mars before the God-Emperor but theres no indication the Dragon, who was sleeping, gave anyone any technology. The Ad-Mech has a hard enough time even figuring out what necron stuff is, much less reverse engineering it.



4) Ctan. I do not like the Ctan. The whole concept of stellar remoras is just incredibly lame. Now they are tied into everything. Blech. Necrontyr were good enough.
I think they're quite interesting. Giant beings that feed on stars, very lovecraft feeling. As for being tied into everything, what did you expect, 40k is all happening in one area of the Universe. In real life stuff is tied to common sources too.

Revlid
10-07-2006, 12:36
This is where I agree. Why in the world would someone put a god on the table top for a skirmish, i'm sure the C'tan have more important things to do. Avatars of gods? Ok, but the gods themselves, silly.


The tabletop C'tan aren't the C'tan themselves. They're shells of *whatever metal the Necrons use* imbued with a fragment of the C'tan's power.
Also, the C'tan aren't Gods. They have god-like power, true, but there is a very great difference, in that the C'tan actually exist in the material plane.

I like the C'tan in general, and would do more if they expanded on the Lovecraft feel.
The only reason I dislike the C'tan is when some twerp takes their ambiguos background too far and makes them into the Wizards Who Did It.

jfrazell
10-07-2006, 12:50
Nah. Ctan are essentually leaches on a stellar scale. Thats cool. but why are the leaches: 1) sentient; 2) technologically advanced; 3) concerned at all with either the warp or other sentient life?

The necrontyr were advanced before the Ctan. It would have been better, and potentially more tragic, if they had done this to themselves.

Actually in RT and 2nd Ed everything wasn't tied together. I liked that better. The orks and eldar had their own independent histories. I don't mind the Old Ones turning out to have been the BrainBoyz but its too soap operaish for me otherwise.

Now if GW added in some nice renegade "factions" among the Necrontyr I could go with that. I can see it now. Necrontyr lord Georgwas Hintn leading a rebellion to free his race from the cruelty of their Ctan overlords :)

Lord Zarkov
10-07-2006, 12:56
The necrontyr were advanced before the Ctan. It would have been better, and potentially more tragic, if they had done this to themselves.

only problem is they would then be almost a carbon copy of BBC's Cybermen

Gen.Steiner
10-07-2006, 13:01
Since when have carbon copies bothered GW? Treemen = Ents, for example...

RampagingRavener
10-07-2006, 13:07
and "humanity never achieved anything, they just stole it all from the C'Tan".

Just out of interest, but could you point me towards where this is supposedly implied? I get the whole "Machine God=Dragon on Mars" deal, but this one is new to me.

As for the C'tan appearing on-table, I don't think it's that much a problem. I always just imagined it that most of the C'tans power has to be expended on forcing itself into the Necrodermis, and when the Necrodermis is breached, the explosion is just the energy imbuing it rushing outwards from the destroyed Living Metal and going back into the C'tan as it is released.

That says, I'm not much a fan of the whole "C'tan did it" syndrome. It's quite nice to have the Deceiver playing about behind the scenes, what with the Pariah Gene and all, but do they have to be the cause of everything? I mean, IIRC it's stated in the Necron codex that the Gothic War was ignited by the Deciever in order to destroy/get rid of the Talismans of Vaul. IMO, it was better when it was just a good old Chaos assault on the Imperium, and the Talismans were just involved by coincedence.

Lord Zarkov
10-07-2006, 13:08
Tolkein is the basis for most fantasy & pretty much all the races in his books are copied by all fantasy; wheas copying the BBC's material is a different matter; & if you copy cybermen you're opening the doors to other BBC creations such as Daleks (who are another (actually truly alien this time) high-tech race which stripped their emotions and put themsleves in practically indestructable casings (athough there is still the mutant operator) and wish to wipe out all other life)

Inq. Veltane
10-07-2006, 13:11
only problem is they would then be almost a carbon copy of BBC's Cybermen

Watching Doctor Who on Saturday I couldn't help but think "These are just a cooler version of the Necrons". I prefered the Necrontyr back in 2nd Edition when they first appeared, mysterious Xenos raiders with unknown goals. The C'Tan are just a bit too much, I honestly think that the Necrontyr without the C'Tan would have made a much better addition to the 40k universe.

azimaith
10-07-2006, 15:16
Just out of interest, but could you point me towards where this is supposedly implied? I get the whole "Machine God=Dragon on Mars" deal, but this one is new to me.

Sure thing.
Page 2 Necron Codex: "This could spell the doom of Humanity, for the core of the Necron threat nestles like a cancer within the heart of the Imperium itself."

Page 4 Necron Codex: "Last of all, there is the Machine god of the Adeptus Mechanicus themselves. In Imperia; theology the holy spirit of the Omnissiah is worshipped by the Tech-Priests of Mars is a facet of the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind-....However, the most ancient and zealously guarded records of their Order tell of a time before the coming of the Emperor when a far older power was paid homage on Mars..."

Page 5 Necron Codex: From the Prophecy: "The Vaul-Moon shall bring forth the Dragon" the footnote: "...The Vaul-Moon could be the Eldar equivalent of a Forge World."

Page 49 Necron Codex: Interview with condemned Heretic who snuck into the forbidden Noctis Labrinth, a Necron tomb complex, on Mars.
"I have crept into the forbidden zones, can you say the same? I have walked with tremulous steps where the very highest authorites of our order say it is death to stand and I have seen the truth behind the lies you dogmatis espouse. I will never be lied to again for I have seen the face of god."

Finally, there was a suicidal raid by 2 necron light cruisers which penetrated Mars orbital defences, one even landing on Mars before being destroyed.

Theres probably more but this is what I found off hand.


The tabletop C'tan aren't the C'tan themselves. They're shells of *whatever metal the Necrons use* imbued with a fragment of the C'tan's power.
Also, the C'tan aren't Gods. They have god-like power, true, but there is a very great difference, in that the C'tan actually exist in the material plane.

No, what the Necrons put on the Table are the C'tan. The Necrons didn't imbue anything with fragments of the C'tans power, the C'tan came across the starlight bridge into proxy bodies of living metal. It plain old says so in the codex.

RampagingRavener
10-07-2006, 15:56
Uh, am I the only one who doesn't understand how people can read into those quotes that humanity stoles tech from the Necrons? Yea, sure, they all pretty much point to the Dragon being on Mars, but I'm not seeing how they supposedly imply that we just grave(tomb)-robbed everything from them. Or is it just me being dense? :confused:

azimaith
10-07-2006, 16:04
Well I didn't put those parts in because you just asked about the dragon and why we thought he was on Mars.

Page 4 Necron Codex: "They make veiled reference to unspeakable knowledge won in the Golden age of Technology and how it brought about mankinds eventual downfall in the age of strife." Right under the quote about "A far older power"

I don't know where people got the idea they stole it from the necrons, maybe someone else can find it. As far as I know, they just got some knowledge back then and utilized it when they were still making things. Like I said before, when was the last time a necron warrior gunned down a space marine with a plasma gun, and how often has the exact reverse happened.

RampagingRavener
10-07-2006, 16:14
Ah, my bad, worded my initial question badly. I just ment about the supposed stealing of Necron tech. ;)

But, yea, even in that quote I'm not seeing how it could be implied that Humans based their newer technology around tomb robbing the C'tan and their servants. Thanks for the help. :)

lapis_lazuli
10-07-2006, 18:55
I have ambivalent feelings towards the C'tan/Necrons. I think overall they should have stayed in the background. Necrons are a boring army and C'tan, being described as gods, should not be wasting their time trapped in avatars that can be easily killed on the tabletop in company-level battles! I really don't like the War in Heaven either - the whole Eldar/Orks/Hrud/Jokaero etc = good, C'tan=evil thing is just too simplistic. Not to mention the poor way the WiH background is written, full of inconsistencies and ideas that make no sense. The Enslaver Plague for one. And Nightbringer 'imprinting' his presence on every race in the galaxy. Bah.

Having said that, I do like the idea of some kind of mysterious, advanced race being responsible for the tomb worlds (the C'tan have existed since 2nd Ed. after all), which mankind then plunders during the Dark Age of Technology after twenty thousand years of relative technological stagnation. Suddenly, human beings have sentient AIs (reverse engineered from Necron technology, naturally), which help them design warp drives and the like, and we see the massive colonisation of the galaxy. But oh no, the machines revolt (that's what you get for tinkering with Necron tech!) and we end up in the Age of Strife. Nice. So yes, ambivalent.

RampagingRavener
10-07-2006, 19:23
Necrons are a boring army

OT, but every time someone says this, I die a little inside. The army might not be very flexible list-wise, but IMO it's far from boring to use.

Damien 1427
10-07-2006, 19:41
Nothing against Necrons. They're great. Love them to bits. Really old race that removed itself from the spiritual completley and right into the physical, becoming arguably the most advanced race in galactic history. I like.

Despise the C'Tan. I find them to be Lovecraftian, without anything that makes Lovecraftian monstrosities "cool". Thing with, say, Cthulhu is we know precisely sod all about it. It's really old, powerful, and is stuck in a mind-bending city beneath the sea. The C'tan? We know where they come from, what they've done and where they're going. The greatest part of Lovecraft (And what later contributers to the mythos forgot) is the mystery, something that I feel the C'Tan lack, beyond who they're pretending to be this week.
With the mystery, they're shadowy beings of impossible power that we could never hope to defeat. Without the mystery, they're just rather lame "ohemgee teh superpowerful!111" characters. The fact you can play them in-game, regardless of how diminished they are, just helps make them even more dull.

Yodhrin
10-07-2006, 20:08
Just out of interest, but could you point me towards where this is supposedly implied? I get the whole "Machine God=Dragon on Mars" deal, but this one is new to me.


I have never been comfortable with the idea that humanity achieved technological supremecy in less than 20,000 years, while other races (like the eldar) had been around for MILLIONS to get there. This smacks of anthropocentricity where humanity, no matter its flaws, will always triumph.

I find it far more palatable that humans LOOTED alot of their tech and retroengineered it- cheated if you will. In fact the Tau built their warp technology besed on a conveniently crashed ship on their moon, so there is precedent.

Now, if Mars is a tomb world, finding the tech on it would have been a realistic achievement, considering it is so close.


This is what I mean. It seems like every week someone is coming out with yet another "theory" which treads all over everyone else's background material, all based on the supposedly ambiguous fluff in the Necron Codex and a couple of tiny short stories. If GW had just given them their own background rather than writing them into everyone else's this kind of sillyness could all have been avoided.

EDIT: And as for any variation of "the AdMech are puppets of the Void Dragon/Mars is a tomb world", that's something else for me to ignore. What makes the Imperium and humanity in 40K compelling is the tragedy of their rise and fall. Humanity built themselves a utopia, but their own paranoia and self-interest destroyed it and their fears and superstitions took over. When the Emperor arose they had a second chance to achieve enlightenment and cast off the mental shackles of religion and superstition, but once again their own natures turned against them. When you then turn around and say "oh, but they didn't actually achieve anything themselves, it was the C'Tan, and the reason the AdMech are a cult is because of the C'Tan, and the Emperor is really a C'Tan(this was seriously discussed by a couple of people at my old gaming group)", it all loses it's impact.

Hellebore
11-07-2006, 03:31
This is what I mean. It seems like every week someone is coming out with yet another "theory" which treads all over everyone else's background material, all based on the supposedly ambiguous fluff in the Necron Codex and a couple of tiny short stories. If GW had just given them their own background rather than writing them into everyone else's this kind of sillyness could all have been avoided.

EDIT: And as for any variation of "the AdMech are puppets of the Void Dragon/Mars is a tomb world", that's something else for me to ignore. What makes the Imperium and humanity in 40K compelling is the tragedy of their rise and fall. Humanity built themselves a utopia, but their own paranoia and self-interest destroyed it and their fears and superstitions took over. When the Emperor arose they had a second chance to achieve enlightenment and cast off the mental shackles of religion and superstition, but once again their own natures turned against them. When you then turn around and say "oh, but they didn't actually achieve anything themselves, it was the C'Tan, and the reason the AdMech are a cult is because of the C'Tan, and the Emperor is really a C'Tan(this was seriously discussed by a couple of people at my old gaming group)", it all loses it's impact.

This is my problem.

i didn't care so much that the imperium looted tech from the Necrons specifically, but that it WAS looted.

I despise humanocentric SciFi; you know, the type where no matter what humanity always ends up the victor whether it be a moral question or a technological one humans always come up trumps.

This REALLY sickens me, it is blatant speciest propaganda, and the worst order of arrogance that you see exhibited by certain super powers today.

What I liked about 40k was that each race was equally fallable, with no one race becoming inherently 'superior' to the other. There was no classic star trekism where Picard turns out in the end to be right, and the aliens must apologise to him and bow before the mighty human intellect.

Human technological progression, however comes dangerously close.

I will outline it for you:

15-20,000 years is the Golden Age- we create AI, super advanced space ships, we are enlightened, etc and form non agression pacts with aliens etc etc Humans colonise the stars.

Then the AI turn against the makers and Age of Strife occurs. Everyone goes bad etc etc.

Now one can only assume that the technology in the 41st millenium is a pale shadow of its former glory yes?

So how is it, that when humanitie's technology is at its ebb it matches that of races MILLIONS of years old? This is what I mean by humanocentric. The fluff indirectly infers that humans reached an almost comparable level of technology with far older races (re: eldar) in 15,000 years!!!

Even if other aliens grew at only 1/100th the rate of humanity, any one that has existed for several million years would still have succeeded.

15,000 years for humans, and 100X15,000 for an alien is only 1,500,000 years.

This in turn infers that humanity is somehow inherently superior to all other races by growing so quickly. I would accept it if humanity stole technology form other races, as it would show a cunning without some god like genius. It just so happens that GW put necrons on Mars and so it became a good source of tech in my mind. Before the necrons were written, I used other aliens.

It's not that I am attempting to be overly ANTI-human either. The Eldar clearly looted the Old Ones technology- the Web Way specifically. The Tau looted warp drives, and the Orks have a UNIT called Lootas. :p


This whole obsession with the Emperor, and how fanboys deify him and how he is somehow destined to save the day completely belittles and makes void all other races in the game, because anything they do will be meaningless as it is the Emperor and his boys that will fix everything.

Originally, being a WARgame they attempted to make it as balanced as possible by giving equal time to each race, and putting none above any other.
This was sensible from a marketing point of view because no one would buy an army perceived as worthless. Thus they had to provide justifications for all of them so they would all be bought.

Now with the marinefrenzy, and the amount of sales marines produce, they are shifting dangerously close to the same humanocentric point of view that turned me off other SciFi genres.


Hellebore

Lord Zarkov
11-07-2006, 07:11
Remember the eldar are at a low point as well and have lost much technology since the fall; so if human tech at its highpoint is equal to the eldar now the eldar highpoint would be much higher

and look at the tau: since the reign of blood their tech has accelerated to a level way beyond humankind and even approaching the eldar (and above in some cases i.e. rail technology)

Then there is the necrons who (in their specialised fields) have technology far greater than anything the other races have or have ever had (with the possible exception of the old ones)

Yodhrin
11-07-2006, 08:20
hellebore, you have to take into account the assumed mindsets here. It's an almost universal constant that humanity is ingenious and by it's nature highly expansionist, but that it is also self-destructive and self-interested. Humanity creates quickly, but destroys equally fast, especially when destroying itself.

The Eldar do not think the same way. As far as they are concerned, they are the pinnacle of creation, they feel no need to advance further because they are already inherently superior to all the lesser races, the Mon-keigh(sp?) especially, technologically, morally, mentally and spiritually. They concern themselves with manipulating the future to their benefit and thwarting Slannesh, and their every action is consumed by that course.

In addition, humanity has developed to the point where it has lost it's drive and ingenuity, it is stagnating, even going backwards in some cases and losing technology. Rather than invent new technology, it searches for the shreds of it's former glory in a desperate attempt to claw back the knowledge it's lost. I would hardly call that a "humani-centrist" universe. In fact, I would call it a striking metaphor(however crude) for the self-destructive trendancies which exist in all of us, lurking and seeking an excuse to emerge.

In game terms yes, Imperial technology is more than a match for the other races, but not in the background. Imperial ships, for example, are simply huge wedges of metal with guns and engines bolted on, only superior to Ork technology because of the ritualised maintenance which the Techpriests undertake. In some cases the guns are still aimed and fired by huge gangs of indentured men pulling on chains! Then look at, for example, plasma technology. For the other races, Plasma is a stable energy source and a devestating weapon, for the Imperium whether or not Plasma is effective is dependant on the ratio of how many enemies it kills compared to how many operators of the weapons die from overheats or containment breaches. Compare that to the Eldar or the Tau.

Speaking of the Tau, if you are so outraged at the way humanity supposedly developed all that amazing tech over a period of a few tens of thousands of years, why not the same attitude towards the Tau, who have surpassed current Imperial levels in less than 6000? Does the fact they are a xenos race excuse them from the same sins you berate humanity for? They salvaged a single piece of technology, everything else is their own invention, and they're hardly short of those; stable Plasma and Fusion tech, stable mind-link tech, semi-sentient AI...

Son of the Lion
11-07-2006, 09:25
Hmmm. Don't forget that there's a theory that the Tau were supposedly 'tampered with' by the Eldar. That could have something to do with their remarkable tech advancement. Otherwise I agree with you entirely. Though I do think, like Hellebore, that GW should move away from the Humanity=good, everything else=evil view point it has begun to adopt to simplify the 40k universe for 'youngsters'.

Lord Dante
11-07-2006, 15:13
Im wondering what race GW will think up nice - perhaps the Jokero, and they had these bigger god then the c-tan and they can eat 2 stars at once and... my dads bigger then your day etc..

Personally I like.
Chaos gods = bad
Emp god = good
Eldar = naughty god

Im old and stuck in my ways :(

Voodoo Boyz
11-07-2006, 16:41
I thought the C'Tan were pretty cool and loved all the fluff in the Necron codex.

Then again I started playing in 4th ed and never read the fluff from 2nd ed.

Hellebore
11-07-2006, 18:41
hellebore, you have to take into account the assumed mindsets here. It's an almost universal constant that humanity is ingenious and by it's nature highly expansionist, but that it is also self-destructive and self-interested. Humanity creates quickly, but destroys equally fast, especially when destroying itself.

The Eldar do not think the same way. As far as they are concerned, they are the pinnacle of creation, they feel no need to advance further because they are already inherently superior to all the lesser races, the Mon-keigh(sp?) especially, technologically, morally, mentally and spiritually. They concern themselves with manipulating the future to their benefit and thwarting Slannesh, and their every action is consumed by that course.

In addition, humanity has developed to the point where it has lost it's drive and ingenuity, it is stagnating, even going backwards in some cases and losing technology. Rather than invent new technology, it searches for the shreds of it's former glory in a desperate attempt to claw back the knowledge it's lost. I would hardly call that a "humani-centrist" universe. In fact, I would call it a striking metaphor(however crude) for the self-destructive trendancies which exist in all of us, lurking and seeking an excuse to emerge.

In game terms yes, Imperial technology is more than a match for the other races, but not in the background. Imperial ships, for example, are simply huge wedges of metal with guns and engines bolted on, only superior to Ork technology because of the ritualised maintenance which the Techpriests undertake. In some cases the guns are still aimed and fired by huge gangs of indentured men pulling on chains! Then look at, for example, plasma technology. For the other races, Plasma is a stable energy source and a devestating weapon, for the Imperium whether or not Plasma is effective is dependant on the ratio of how many enemies it kills compared to how many operators of the weapons die from overheats or containment breaches. Compare that to the Eldar or the Tau.

Speaking of the Tau, if you are so outraged at the way humanity supposedly developed all that amazing tech over a period of a few tens of thousands of years, why not the same attitude towards the Tau, who have surpassed current Imperial levels in less than 6000? Does the fact they are a xenos race excuse them from the same sins you berate humanity for? They salvaged a single piece of technology, everything else is their own invention, and they're hardly short of those; stable Plasma and Fusion tech, stable mind-link tech, semi-sentient AI...

The Eldar being disinclined to further themselves is completely at odds with how they are described. They want to experience things to their end- how then do you experience the perfection of physics unless you totally MASTER it?

Humanity's drive is no less or more than any other races- at the beginning of their expansion and quest for knowledge at least.

The eldar have existed for 60 million years, even if it took them 1000 times longer to learn a single idea a human learned, humanity did it all in 15,000 years, so even then the eldar would have done it in 15,000,000 1/4 their entire existence- and that's assuming they progressed at one THOUSANDTH the speed of humanity!!

The tau I have no problem with because they have actually had ALOT of inferred 'help' to get them where they are so quickly. Don't dismiss a single piece of technology either- that one space craft could have catapulted their technological development forward 10,000 years. With all the inunedo involving the tau it provides some explanation.

Which is how I see the AdMech C'tan crossover. Just as it is implied the tau retroengineered alien technology and have been artificially accelerated, so it is implied humanity stumbled upon a similar circumstance- albiet not directed to the degree it is inferred with the Tau.

So there you have it- the tau and the Imperium both arrived where they are through similar routes, if anyone complains they are merely supporting the speciest propaganda that humanity could accelerate so fast due to natural ability:p

Hellebore

Lord Dante
11-07-2006, 19:38
So there you have it- the tau and the Imperium both arrived where they are through similar routes, if anyone complains they are merely supporting the speciest propaganda that humanity could accelerate so fast due to natural ability:p

Hellebore

Except Humanity had one thing all the others didnt have - The emperor, a god who could create technolagy far beyond mankinds current ablity...

Drasanil
11-07-2006, 19:58
So there you have it- the tau and the Imperium both arrived where they are through similar routes, if anyone complains they are merely supporting the speciest propaganda that humanity could accelerate so fast due to natural ability:p

And you're one of those Hate Humanity First Liberals :p *

You are forgetting several important things about humanity's 'domiance' of the stars. First of all, chaos as we know it didn't exist it was a dormant threat, eldar were too self-absorbed to give a poop, nercons were sleeping, nids hadn't arrived, tau didn't even exist, and orky know-wats sufficiently inferior to STCs as to make the greenskins a nuissance rather than a proper threat. In other words humanity achieved domiance, because they picked fights with primitives they could easily best, and the other advanced races either didn't give a poop, or were simply not encountered.

You are also assuming that technology can continue to evolve eternally, eventualy there is bound to be a stopping point at which technological advancements, if any, becomes a matter of simple effiency, convenience or asthetics. Yes eldar have been around for sixty million years, they've also been resting on their laurels for most of that time, they let machines do their exploration and mundane chores, while they spent their lives in pursuit of carnel pleasures which is what led to their downfall. Once you can destroy a star, is there really a point in working to better your technology when you can take a break secure in your own superiority?

Further more, you are forgetting that primitive technology can achieve similar ends, a stone axe will crush some one's skull as readily as a broadsword. Humanity's technology might not have be as refined, efficient, or pretty as eldar tech, but that doesn't mean it could not get the job done. You also have to take a look out how far we've come in the last few centuries, going from plague infested supersticious peasantry, to modern urbanised city folk. We're already developing bionics, powerfull computers, smaller and smaller technology, whats so hard to believe that humanity could spread through the stars 12 thousand years later thanks to the discovery of faster than light warp travel? Essentialy I think you have an anti-humanity bias;)

(*Note: this slogan was stolen from the american conservatives, orginaly know as "Blame America First Liberals", a reference to the left-wing politicians.)

bertcom1
11-07-2006, 20:33
Eldar technology is far superior to anything that Humans ever made.

Eldar air and space craft for example easily outclass Imperials. Eldar aircraft easily achieve kill:loss ratios of more than 20:1 against Imperial Navy aircraft. For space fighters and bombers, the Eldar Interceptors do not even have to fire a shot to defeat Imperial fighters. They can simply fly rings around them, and the Imperials expend all their fuel and ammunition to no effect.

The likes of the craftworlds are beyond anything manufactured by humans.

However, I suspect that the Fall and the creation of Slaanesh has meant that some of the most powerful ships and weapons can no longer be used due to the dangers. I suspect the Eldar used to have ships with psychic powers, for example.

The reasons why Imperial technology is roughly equivalent are because the Eldar are restricted, and humans are far more expendable.



I see Human technology as being "Human see, Human do". For example, the expansion of Humans was initially through slow generational ships. At some point, Humans encountered warp-driven spaceships of another species. I do not see the warp being discovered by humans themselves, it just seems too weird a thing to find without assistance. Later, Humans built their own warpships, guided by calculation, later by the Navigators, who were engineered for this purpose, this allowed the great expansion of Humans across the galaxy.

I don't know what the Iron Men were, but given that they were "created" and had "no soul", I suspect they were some kind of android or clone-cyborg. These and other "thinking machines" which eventually caused the Age of Strife are possibly a purely Human invention, and do not need to have been inspired or copied from anything.

So, I think much Human technology came about through imitation, not invention. Whether this was direct reverse engineering, or indirectly through realising that certain things are possible, does not matter so much.

The fact that Humans did not actually invent much of Imperial technology, and it was traded, reverse engineered or inspired by aliens would be sufficiently shocking to be "unspeakable knowledge won in the Gold age of Technology". It does not have to be 100% Necrons.

I think Humans have achieved a fast rate of progress through not caring about the consequences. Eldar would be more conservative as they live so much longer, while Humans have always acted first, thought later. Humans rush in, where angels fear to tread, and so on, with predictable results.

Basically, everything Humans do, goes pear-shaped at some point.


As for the C'tan, I think they are an interesting idea, but I do not like the way they have been put into everything.

The idea that the AdMech reversed engineered lots of things from Necron stuff does not make a lot of sense. Warp engines were never made by the Necrons. First they had slow sub-light ships, then the C'tan gave them true FTL ships. Why then do humans use the Warp, if there was Necron stuff on Mars to play with?

Embedding the Dragon on Mars is also something that is problematic. This is something that GW cannot do anything with. It is simply too big. If the Dragon wakes up, then the whole of the Imperium is utterly shafted, as the AdMech is destroyed etc.


I would have preferred humans and the Imperium to have been 100% irrelevant to affecting the schemes of the C'tan and the Old Ones. I.e. humans have no purpose in any of this, they just happened.

Mechanicus
11-07-2006, 21:40
The idea that the AdMech reversed engineered lots of things from Necron stuff does not make a lot of sense. Warp engines were never made by the Necrons. First they had slow sub-light ships, then the C'tan gave them true FTL ships. Why then do humans use the Warp, if there was Necron stuff on Mars to play with?

IMO, because there was not a Necron ship on Mars. Only their tombs and warriors, and of course, the Dragon. They took some of the metal and learned how to create it to a limited extent (Something from False Gods, where they attack the world with the STC on, and the fortress walls adapt to the attacks of the Space Marines, not unlike the description of living metal in the Necron Codex), and may have used it to create other things, but I have seen no evidence of this yet.

Hellebore
12-07-2006, 06:41
Except Humanity had one thing all the others didnt have - The emperor, a god who could create technolagy far beyond mankinds current ablity...


Ah yes the GOD macguffin. This is much more prevalent now then it used to be.

He was deified AFTER his death- before hand he was just an immortal multiconciousness with a huge amount of psychic power, now he's some sort of frickin jesus reborn or some crap.

The Eldar had their own gods, and they liked manifesting themselves too.

In fact Vaul supposedly made the bloody Blackstones- if that isn't creating superduper technology from beyond imagination to help his people become technosupermen I don't know what does.

I think I am not making it clear enough.

60 MILLION years VERSUS 12 THOUSAND years- that's FIVE THOUSANDTH the time.

Hellebore

Gae'Mot
12-07-2006, 08:42
I like the C'tan because they're a match for the powers of chaos (in the materium that is).

DantesInferno
12-07-2006, 10:05
Ah yes the GOD macguffin. This is much more prevalent now then it used to be.

Is it, though? And since when? I fully agree with you on the point that it is more interesting if the emperor was not a proper god before the Heresy, but I haven't seen any real evidence to back up your claim that it's more prevalent now. In fact, I would have argued the opposite - the IA articles for instance give us a much more human picture of the Emperor than ever before, and the RT era background of the shaman conglomeration thing, along with the Sensei and Illuminati, which I thought was the height of the 'pre-Heresy Emperor as god' concept, has not been reintroduced into the background for at least 10-15 years.


I think I am not making it clear enough.

60 MILLION years VERSUS 12 THOUSAND years- that's FIVE THOUSANDTH the time.

Surely the rate of technological advancement is not linear?

Just by looking at human history, we see that advancement can be stimulated by conflict, and by other technologies (eg development of computers).

It's pretty plausible that for most of their 60 000 000 year history the Eldar had no real impetus to develop in any meaningful way, with the lack of significant galactic competition (that we know of, the Eldar probably exterminated any organised hostile races). When your science has advanced to the pre-Fall Eldar's level, why would you need to advance further, and how could they do so anyway?

Son of the Lion
12-07-2006, 11:09
Surely the rate of technological advancement is not linear?

Just by looking at human history, we see that advancement can be stimulated by conflict, and by other technologies (eg development of computers).

It's pretty plausible that for most of their 60 000 000 year history the Eldar had no real impetus to develop in any meaningful way, with the lack of significant galactic competition (that we know of, the Eldar probably exterminated any organised hostile races). When your science has advanced to the pre-Fall Eldar's level, why would you need to advance further, and how could they do so anyway?

Exactly my point. Tech advancement does not need to follow the same rules/rate of progress across the 40k races. It's entirely feasible for a race to have spent thousands, maybe millions of years (particularly one as long lived & farseeing as the eldar) without any significant jump forward in technology because it just wasn't neccessary or important at the time.

In a real world parallel, most of the major leaps forward have been born out of the need for progression, usually due to conflict. If the Eldar were far enough ahead of everyone else to begin with, the need to develop newer tech to establish or reinforce their superiority would be slight. Mankind, on the other hand, has been constantly fighting tooth and claw for it's existence and an established prescence in the universe, so it's not unreasonable to assume they may have developed certain areas of tech (ie the ones key to survival/expansion) quite a bit faster (alright, a lot faster in this case). Besides, due to the murkiness of pre-imperial records, they may well have had a 'hand up' somewhere along the way (xenos/some superhuman types?). I don't think they 'stole' anything on the same way the tau did though.

Sorry if this is a bit rambling. I've been on my feet for 18 hours straight. :eyebrows:

El_Machinae
12-07-2006, 14:37
Our real-world tech rate could increase, as well, if people actually took steps to increase the tech rate. I mean, by buying a computer and using the internet, you're subsidizing research into better computers and faster internet. But what else could you be buying (even for pleasure) to boost the tech rate?

If you follow the flow of money in your purchases, you'll see what type of people you're supporting with your money. If you make purchases where the money ends up in R&D departments, or employing researchers, engineers, or the like, then your purchases push our technology along. If your money is ending up in the hands of people who are just going to use it to live 'average' lives, then you're not helping push the tech rate at all. If you rent a movie, where does the money end up? If you purchase a science magazine, where does the money end up?

The reason why the Eldar never advanced, is because they didn't employ the people who could lead to advancement. Everybody worked on other things, things that (in the long run) were a waste of time on a species level.

Hellebore
13-07-2006, 08:06
I have shown MANY times that it really doesn't matter how slowly you advance, whether it is fast at the beginning, slow in the middle or what ever.

The SHEER amount of TIME would totally remove this from the equation. 15,000 VS 60,000,000. It boggles the mind that you can justify this by usin the "non linear technology progression" argument. Sure if they were seperated by 500,000 years then that may not be a problem, but we are talking MILLIONS of years, and alot can happen, even to a snail, in a million years.




Is it, though? And since when? I fully agree with you on the point that it is more interesting if the emperor was not a proper god before the Heresy, but I haven't seen any real evidence to back up your claim that it's more prevalent now. In fact, I would have argued the opposite - the IA articles for instance give us a much more human picture of the Emperor than ever before, and the RT era background of the shaman conglomeration thing, along with the Sensei and Illuminati, which I thought was the height of the 'pre-Heresy Emperor as god' concept, has not been reintroduced into the background for at least 10-15 years.


The sum total of all of humanity's shamans, fused into one being that is immortal but otherwise can die. Who possesses alot of psychic potential? This is not a god, this is one organism with the gestalt minds of hundreds of people.

This is a man that used his powers to guide humanity in a certain direction, and through his own endevours brought about his downfall (the creation of the primarchs et al).

He was not omnipotent, he was not all seeing, he was simply a gestalt shaman that couldn't die of old age. Now he seems to be the only thing that can stop the galaxy from being eaten by chaos- a true god.

As for the eldar- it isn't simply that I favour the eldar over humanity, but I KNOW humans. I am one. I know what we can do, and I know what we can't do.

The eldar were created to be a certain thing- superior with one very big flaw. WE, as humans set their parameters, and as such we know exactly how they should function. Humans I KNOW to be selfish, self destructive, but also capable of great cooperation etc. But when the destructive capabilities of the world is in the hands of the few, and the rich who wish to keep that wealth, no amount of cooperation or teamsports can stop them pushing the button.

The eldar were laid out by humans to be better than humans. That is all. Their own gods manifested themselves to them, and they utilised the most powerful psychic energies to dominate the galaxy.

There is no leeway, no backdoor- they were created by us, and we set their parameters. Humans have no such constraints, we ge to be just as stupid and self destructive as we want, no fiction writer set out how WE had to function, and thus we are inferior to the eldar based on the fact that we MADE them superior.

Hellebore

Son of the Lion
13-07-2006, 10:13
I have shown MANY times that it really doesn't matter how slowly you advance, whether it is fast at the beginning, slow in the middle or what ever.

The SHEER amount of TIME would totally remove this from the equation. 15,000 VS 60,000,000. It boggles the mind that you can justify this by usin the "non linear technology progression" argument. Sure if they were seperated by 500,000 years then that may not be a problem, but we are talking MILLIONS of years, and alot can happen, even to a snail, in a million years.





What boggles the mind is how self assured you manage to be about all this, considering it's a debate concerning totally fictional and unquantifiable elements (ie the rate of socio-cultural/tech development across xenos races). ;)
Besides, it's not like there's no precedent for huge periods of evolutionary 'crawl' vs comparatvely tiny bursts of 'Sprint' behaviour. For example, Dinosaurs hung around for tens of millions of years, with very little need to change or adapt, whilst 'Humans' evolved from primate scavengers into the tool-wielding, socially dependant dominant life form in between 1M and 500K years (depending on your definition). And before any one screams "tech advancement isn't the same as evolution", don't be so sure. Another whole argument awaits as to what effect the advent of society/culture/technology has on the definintion of 'evolution' for the human race (our only real point of reference for socially interacting, sentient beings). It's a spurious example I know, but it does have some validation - I'm not trying to prove you comprehensively wrong Hellebore, I just think you're being a little close minded about this. Meh.


Btw, your later (somewhat difficult to follow, don't know if you were up late or what:D ) comments about Eldar being that way because we designed them thus are true, but surely a given? Not sure why you would go to lengths to try and convince us that logically the eldar vs human tech timespan is screwed when you then invalidate the whole debate by saying
X is Y, because it just is. ?