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Shifte
14-03-2016, 12:23
Upon reflection, I would have been a lot less offended by Age of Sigmar if it wasn't called Age of Sigmar.

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(It's good to be Emperor. Now bring me a haunch of meat!)

Sigmar, the outstanding mortal warlord who disappeared and passed into legend. Sigmar, the guy we know from his own novels was just a regular dude who happened to achieve great success through determination and natural talent. Sigmar, just a dude, who ascended to Godhood many years later when the combined prayers of the Imperials created an echo in the realm of Chaos that coalesced into a New God. An echo that probably wasn't even the real guy, who died a long long time ago, but rather what the people of the Empire imagined he was like. He was NOT the guy who could magically survive in space, brofist star dragons and forge an army of lightning warriors. **** off, that's not Sigmar and him becoming that really ***** on the old setting.

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(Valten v Archaon, Storm of Chaos)

Archaon, the Everchosen of Chaos. The latest in a line of several, stretching back to greats like Asavar Kul. The ex Imperial Templar who learned the truth about Sigmar - that he wasn't divine at all. That it was a lie. He went on a crusade to tear down the Empire, and Chaos itself, by wiping everyone out during the End Times. His true goal was to destroy the Chaos Gods by leaving no one to worship them. He brought about the End Times and succeeded. Yet unlike EVERY OTHER Chaos Warlord, Archaon is somehow able to survive the Apocalypse despite the Chaos Gods themselves trying to kill him. Worse, he's still doing the same thing he was doing before. Despite his big send off in the End Times, despite realising that his plan to destroy Chaos by becoming its champion failed, Archaon is still trying to bring about the end of this new universe for some ill-defined reason. I mean what, is he lacking direction and trying to repeat past glories? THERE IS NOTHING TO ACHIEVE, ARCHAON. THE SHOW IS OVER. YOU CANNOT FOLLOW THAT ACT.

It's just not the same dude and they could have easily made a new guy who had a new story. I don't get it at all, especially with them releasing a new model.

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I could repeat this for Mannfred Von Carstein, Tyrion, Teclis, Malekith and many other characters. They aren't the same people they were, they're just the same models and labels. Yet their existence underlines the fact that AoS is a SEQUEL to Warhammer. That it replaced Warhammer and that our beloved factions and characters are still here. Except they're not, it's a bastardised version of the characters that only serves to twist the knife and make it a lot harder to accept. It reminds us that they literally killed off our beloved setting and there is no going back. Hell, I haven't been able accept it and I don't think I ever will, frankly. The only character that I can imagine having inexplicably surviving to this new setting is Nagash, and that's just for ***** and giggles because he survives EVERYTHING.

Someone said in the other thread that GW never went far enough with AOS. I agree with them. If GW really wanted to kill off WFB and replace it with this they should have quietly released Brets, Skaven and Beastmen for 8th and then stopped supporting WFB. Meanwhile, release diferently-named-AOS with the ability to use WFB models but on the understanding that 'over the years we will be filling out this new setting with prominent factions that will take over from the older armies and fit better into the setting'. That would have left the Old World alive (if unsupported) and given players like me a lot less inherent resentment for the new setting.

N/B: I don't want to get into a big argument about Sigmar or Archaon's characterisations. These things can be subjective and if we go off into a tangential discussion about that then we're ignoring my point, which is primarily about how GW could have handled this new setting better. Rather than make it easier for someone like me to leap into the new setting, including characters like Sigmar and Archaon make it near impossible.

Zywus
14-03-2016, 12:54
Someone said in the other thread that GW never went far enough with AOS. I agree with them. If GW really wanted to kill off WFB and replace it with this they should have quietly released Brets, Skaven and Beastmen for 8th and then stopped supporting WFB. Meanwhile, release diferently-named-AOS with the ability to use WFB models but on the understanding that 'over the years we will be filling out this new setting with prominent factions that will take over from the older armies and fit better into the setting'. That would have left the Old World alive (if unsupported) and given players like me a lot less inherent resentment for the new setting.
I agree. If AoS had truly been it's own thing, I still don't imagine that it would have been much of a hit (since most problems would remain), but there would have been a lot less resentment. As it is now, AoS is seen as a mockery of and an affront to a long cherished setting.

It would have been a lot easier to pull a 'new coke', just forget about AoS and go back to real Warhammer. Sadly, not a lot of bridges has been well and truly burned.

Andnore
14-03-2016, 14:51
Valkia's my personal favorite where this is concerned, since they change her backstory, making her essentially a new character... so why not just make her a new character? Reusing the name just makes it harder to get into AoS for someone who's familiar with the old setting. Actually, that's my problem with a lot of AoS; the constant reminders of the Old Warhammer setting just makes me reminisce about a setting that I liked a lot more than this new one.

malisteen
14-03-2016, 15:27
Harder for people who remember the old setting? Imagine what it's like trying to jump into this game as a new player! Practically all of the important movers and shakers are from an entirely different world setting of an entirely different and now increasingly inaccessible old game.

But in general, yeah, I agree. How can people get invested in the fate of the mortal realms when none of the characters fighting over it are actually from the mortal realms, nor do they have any tangible narrative connection to them?

Drakkar du Chaos
14-03-2016, 16:22
Sigmar, the guy we know from his own novels was just a regular dude who happened to achieve great success through determination and natural talent.

In fact he's Alpharius/Omegon in his young days.
After all his Fantasy adventures A/O built a space ship, escaped the Old World and became a space pirate. And then he find Horus.

Captain Marius
14-03-2016, 21:13
I personally like the links to the world that was. Th idea that Sigmar is active and kicking ass, at least in the Age of Myth. Archaon being someone who destroyed the world yet found the Chaos gods were barely started with using him for their own goals, and now unbelievably has a chance to be redeemed, Mannfred, Neferata and Arkhan being referred to as characters from before the Age of Myth - the events they have survived, their current status has evolved sp far from where they were!

I still hope Karl Franz is the Celestant Prime, or at least revered as a saint to justify all the kFs everywhere on the Empire range (i hoped the same for Ungrim Ironfist for the fyreslayers but sadly this did not come to pass) - ultimately well wait and see! In the meantime im happy painting my sigmarines and bloodbound and seeing where my old armies will end up, while playing games with those armies cos GW release rules for them!

Ol'shas'ka
15-03-2016, 02:44
Valkia's my personal favorite where this is concerned, since they change her backstory, making her essentially a new character... so why not just make her a new character? Reusing the name just makes it harder to get into AoS for someone who's familiar with the old setting. Actually, that's my problem with a lot of AoS; the constant reminders of the Old Warhammer setting just makes me reminisce about a setting that I liked a lot more than this new one.

I had absolutely no idea that they'd retconned Valkia's backstory in AoS and just ... wow. As a big fan of Sarah Cawkwell's work with the character I honestly can't believe that they'd throw all that out in favor of something as lackluster and generic as what she has now.

Urgat
15-03-2016, 08:49
(It's good to be Emperor. Now bring me a haunch of meat!)

Sigmar, the outstanding mortal warlord who disappeared and passed into legend. Sigmar, the guy we know from his own novels was just a regular dude who happened to achieve great success through determination and natural talent. Sigmar, just a dude, who ascended to Godhood many years later when the combined prayers of the Imperials created an echo in the realm of Chaos that coalesced into a New God. An echo that probably wasn't even the real guy, who died a long long time ago, but rather what the people of the Empire imagined he was like. He was NOT the guy who could magically survive in space, brofist star dragons and forge an army of lightning warriors. **** off, that's not Sigmar and him becoming that really ***** on the old setting.

That's all well and good, but you're just pushing your opinion on who Sigmar is or is not. Sigmar's fate is pretty clearly stated in ET: Archaon. Whether you like it or not is a different matter.

Shifte
15-03-2016, 10:46
That's all well and good, but you're just pushing your opinion on who Sigmar is or is not. Sigmar's fate is pretty clearly stated in ET: Archaon. Whether you like it or not is a different matter.

I'm not pushing anything, dude. Sigmar has a series of novels (which I mentioned in my post?) and the nature of gods is discussed in the Tome of Salvation. Those were both published by Games Workshop. ET: Archaon is where they recently retconned* it in advance of Age of Sigmar.

Sigmar isn't a new character. The Storm of Chaos was also canon once, too, before being removed for End Times. If you honestly think the Sigmar of "Heldenhammer" was envisaged as the entity in AOS then I can only scoff at you. That or assume that you are trying to disrupt this discussion. :P

After all read the last paragraph of my post. I made it clear that I am not interested in discussing this specific example - it's just that, an example. I made a wider point about recycling characters in AOS, which I invite you to engage with. I think I can already tell which way you lean, mind!

*that is the correct use of the phrase retroactive continuity.

Tokamak
15-03-2016, 12:55
Someone said in the other thread that GW never went far enough with AOS. I agree with them. If GW really wanted to kill off WFB and replace it with this they should have quietly released Brets, Skaven and Beastmen for 8th and then stopped supporting WFB. Meanwhile, release diferently-named-AOS with the ability to use WFB models but on the understanding that 'over the years we will be filling out this new setting with prominent factions that will take over from the older armies and fit better into the setting'. That would have left the Old World alive (if unsupported) and given players like me a lot less inherent resentment for the new setting.


That was such a purposeful marketing move though. WFB couldn't just be 'complete' and 'finished' in a state that could co-exist with AoS. AoS had to absorb WFB whole and with it, it's entire fanbase.

It's quite insulting really. Not only does GW take the loyalty of their fans for granted, they also insult their intelligence by believing that it's not the product they support but rather GW as a brand that they follow. GW got it in their heads that they're Apple or Starbucks. They believe it's their ugly red and yellow logo that keeps people buying their products.

Of course people had none of it. It's the Warhammer world that slowly grew and matured over decades that they invested in. Not Games vriggin Workshop and whatever it's new shareholders want it to be.

Urgat
15-03-2016, 19:28
I think I can already tell which way you lean, mind!

I wasn't even aware there were ways to lean towards :confused:
I'm not discussing the other characters because I don't know what happened to them in AoS, and I rarely give my opinion on stuff I don't know, mind.
I do with Sigmar, hence when I'm talking about him. And I stick with the latest fluff, because otherwise, when do you make the cut? Are the propper Bretonians the 5th ed ones, or the 6th ed ones? Is Nagash still "dead" to you? There's no argument to be made at all if you just cherry-pick whatever edition of a particular fluff you think fits best. With AoS out, I consider the WFB fluff "fixed" for good. There won't be any reason to change stuff in the Old World anymore, so that's it's status to me.
I'm not sure that the ET fluff on Sigmar actually contradicts either the novels or the Tome of Salvation, btw. I don't quite remember, but it seemed to work fine in continuity.

Shifte
15-03-2016, 19:45
I wasn't even aware there were ways to lean towards :confused:
I'm not discussing the other characters because I don't know what happened to them in AoS, and I rarely give my opinion on stuff I don't know, mind.
I do with Sigmar, hence when I'm talking about him. And I stick with the latest fluff, because otherwise, when do you make the cut? Are the propper Bretonians the 5th ed ones, or the 6th ed ones? Is Nagash still "dead" to you? There's no argument to be made at all if you just cherry-pick whatever edition of a particular fluff you think fits best. With AoS out, I consider the WFB fluff "fixed" for good. There won't be any reason to change stuff in the Old World anymore, so that's it's status to me.
I'm not sure that the ET fluff on Sigmar actually contradicts either the novels or the Tome of Salvation, btw. I don't quite remember, but it seemed to work fine in continuity.

That might be for another thread.


N/B: I don't want to get into a big argument about Sigmar or Archaon's characterisations. These things can be subjective and if we go off into a tangential discussion about that then we're ignoring my point, which is primarily about how GW could have handled this new setting better. Rather than make it easier for someone like me to leap into the new setting, including characters like Sigmar and Archaon make it near impossible.

Honestly, this discussion is what I was trying to avoid with the above. :P It's besides the point. I'm saying that they made a mistake by keeping characters from the Old World.

Clewz
16-03-2016, 07:44
I had absolutely no idea that they'd retconned Valkia's backstory in AoS and just ... wow. As a big fan of Sarah Cawkwell's work with the character I honestly can't believe that they'd throw all that out in favor of something as lackluster and generic as what she has now.

Only slightly. Its just a sentence saying legend says her tribe turned on her. Key part being legend says there, so I doubt it invalidates the novel. A lot of black library stuff is different to what the rulebooks state just look at what it states about how Arkhan the black died. Both are valid they're just different takes on the tale

GrandmasterWang
20-03-2016, 06:05
Great post topic creator!


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