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Azazyll
15-03-2016, 17:21
So it's now been made clear in the HH novels and especially the FW books that every loyalist legion included at least some traitors (and vice versa, but that's not as important to this point). And some traitor legion loyalists were even accepted as fairly well-known imperial agents (at least at the time and among the most powerful figures in the Imperium).

This leads to a bit of a problem with the much longer-established Dark Angels lore: that the Dark Angels had to hide their shame of having traitor brethren after the Heresy. In light of the more recent, and far more nuanced, portrayal of the Heresy, this just looks like an enormous overreaction on the part of the Dark Angels. It made sense when we knew far less about the HH and there were no other examples of loyalist legions including traitors, but it makes far less sense for the Dark Angels to have such a huge complex about it now.

I see a few mitigating circumstances:
1) The psychology of the Dark Angels themselves. They are the first, clearly they were considered staunchly loyal because Horus sought to get them out of the way as he did the other most loyal legions like the Blood Angels and Ultramarines. Pride in being the first may therefore play a role. The nature of the chapter as more secretive may also play a part, and hopefully Bligh will play all of these things up when he gets to them in earnest next year.
2) The treachery of Luther only came to fruition after the Siege of Terra when the Dark Angels returned to Caliban. This timing may be critical, as we know from the most recent FW book that already during the Scouring a purge of records was taking place to wipe the stain of traitors from the loyalist legions. It's also not clear how long it was after the Heresy that Luther rebelled - it may have been well into the Scouring.
3) The scale of Luther's betrayal. It included the homeworld of the Dark Angels, and the Lion's most trusted confidant. The number of Fallen may also be greater than other loyalist legion traitors, but we won't know for sure until the HH series get wrapped up.

At the very least this is going to require some explanation along the lines I have given (or perhaps I have missed something - do please comment!). The situation of the Fallen and the very basic suppositions of the Dark Angels are going to have to be made a lot more nuanced to fit with the overall more complex depiction of the Warhammer 40k universe of the past few years. A positive development overall.

Snake Tortoise
15-03-2016, 22:04
It would make an interesting HH story to document traitors in some of the loyalist chapters. Traitor Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Space Wolves? It's quite hard to imagine

Gdolkin
15-03-2016, 23:50
So it's now been made clear in the HH novels and especially the FW books that every loyalist legion included at least some traitors
..Wait what? I'm aware of the misled White Scars, the mysterious speechless Raven hanging around with the Night Lords, the 'Red Angel' if you count that.. Citations please, dare not slander the Iron Tenth without proof!

blu
16-03-2016, 00:44
Wasn't the Lion a sort of paranoid ? Isn't possible that Dark Angels inherited that trait from him and over the millenia they made a "bigger than it is drama" about Luther's betrayal ?

Rogue Star
16-03-2016, 02:20
I assumed it was the triple shame of a large portion of the Legion turning traitor, the loss of the Lion, and the loss of their homeworld. Even Legions which lost their Primarchs, like the Blood Angels and Iron Hands, still had a homeworld to fall back to and rebuild their shattered strength, even if suddenly directionless. The Dark Angels, I imagined immediately following the Scouring and wars to hold the damaged Imperium together, returned to Caliban to begin the process of breaking up into Chapters.

Azazyll
16-03-2016, 05:19
It would make an interesting HH story to document traitors in some of the loyalist chapters. Traitor Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Space Wolves? It's quite hard to imagine

Yeah, I've not seen a specific mention of Imperial Fists or Wolves, but there's a passing reference to traitor Ultramarines I think in FW's HH6, although I'm having trouble tracking it down now. I would be just as interested to hear a story of loyal Word Bearers, but the assumption is in the book as well.


..Wait what? I'm aware of the misled White Scars, the mysterious speechless Raven hanging around with the Night Lords, the 'Red Angel' if you count that.. Citations please, dare not slander the Iron Tenth without proof!

Retribution page 188 "None can say for certain how many White Scars or Iron Hands, for example, served in the ranks of the Traitors, for the records have long since been purged less any hint of dishonour endure." The tone of much of book two and three also strongly imply that some Iron Hands either went mad or decided that might made right and went over to Horus. The Iron Hands come across to me as one of the most likely to turn of the loyalists, as their entire value system has come under question. Plus they, like the Raven Guard, served very closely with Horus' legion. The FW books are also much more explicit, saying that the White Scars "who had declared for Horus" were purged (p20).

Beyond this we further have the situation of the Blackshields, some of whom fight for the Warmaster, and of course the Chimeric Blackshields which are heavily implied to be created from stolen loyalist geneseed as well as that of the traitors. Whether these "count" is another matter, but the point is clear: whether you count loyalists from the Traitor legions who went on to serve as Grey Knights or traitors from legions that remained loyal, the Dark Angels' specific situation is no longer unique in the same way that it was in the earlier less nuanced (and frankly less interesting) lore.

I think Rogue Star is onto the gist of it, but I really hope we get some greater discussion of this when the time comes, with this more complex situation directly addressed. It might explain why the Angels of Absolution feel that they have no need for redemption, having achieved it by defeating their Fallen brethren at the battle of Caliban.

totgeboren
16-03-2016, 13:00
I'm personally rather disappointed that GW dropped the idea of the DA being 'on the fence', stalling their advance to Terra so they could side with the winner. Instead they just went for a super-dull version of knights in shining armour.
When this was part of the lore, their behaviour afterwards made perfect sense. They then in fact had a 'dark secret' that would forever stain their honour and the honour of the Lion beyond repair. The Calibanites could reveal their shame, and so had to be put to the sword.

nagash66
16-03-2016, 14:45
I'm personally rather disappointed that GW dropped the idea of the DA being 'on the fence', stalling their advance to Terra so they could side with the winner. Instead they just went for a super-dull version of knights in shining armour.
When this was part of the lore, their behaviour afterwards made perfect sense. They then in fact had a 'dark secret' that would forever stain their honour and the honour of the Lion beyond repair. The Calibanites could reveal their shame, and so had to be put to the sword.

While i would have LOVED to see it, making it 100% cannon would potentially anger the vast majority of the DA fanbase.

Aranel
16-03-2016, 18:54
While i would have LOVED to see it, making it 100% cannon would potentially anger the vast majority of the DA fanbase.

Since the concept came from a deranged Fallen, mid torture, yes it would!

That aside, there has never been any comprehensive proof to suggest the Lion sat on the fence.

Back on subject, I think it's a combination of strategic asset (Caliban) and scale of betrayal that puts the Dark Angels in a different bracket. However, their secretive and paranoid nature is the real kicker as their lack of trust ultimately creates a self fulfilling prophecy.

If they had come clean, what would have been the consequences considering the other examples of heresy in the loyalist legions? Million Dollar question!

nagash66
16-03-2016, 19:03
Since the concept came from a deranged Fallen, mid torture, yes it would!

That aside, there has never been any comprehensive proof to suggest the Lion sat on the fence.



Or that he had done anything to help the loyalist up untill Horus was finally losing. Hence why the theory had credibility. And call him what you want, Astelan would have had front row seats, which prior to the HH novels no DA character had.

Before the HH series they COULD have gone either way without contradicting anything said in 40k, they chose the financial and story safe side, cant mean we cant envision what might have been ( good DA HH books for one).

Aranel
16-03-2016, 23:10
Or that he had done anything to help the loyalist up untill Horus was finally losing. Hence why the theory had credibility. And call him what you want, Astelan would have had front row seats, which prior to the HH novels no DA character had.

Before the HH series they COULD have gone either way without contradicting anything said in 40k, they chose the financial and story safe side, cant mean we cant envision what might have been ( good DA HH books for one).

A front row seat is undermined by a lack of objectivity and an absence of information supporting innocence is not guilt.

The only analytical evidence on the Lions loyalty pre HH series is that Horus dispatched the Dark Angels to the Eastern fringe because he believed (along with the Blood Angels and Ultramarines) that they couldn't be persuaded to join him. Yes they were late to Terra but so were other legions who historically have no besmircent on their loyalty (Spce Wolves & Ultramarines).

The only subjective evidence commenting on the Lion's loyalty pre HH series is Astelan's account in Angels of Darkness. Yes, he was present for some of the events of the heresy but undoubtably had an agenda to what he was saying and what he believed (as well as questionable sanity). As such, a scholar can only treat his account with as much sceptism as Tacitus' Agricola.

Finally, Gav Thorpe himself said the characters opinions were biased and warped and should not be treated as canon.

Whilst I accept that GW COULD have performed a uturn, it would have been significantly against the grain of what little background lore there was available at that time.

Fen
17-03-2016, 00:14
I'm personally rather disappointed that GW dropped the idea of the DA being 'on the fence', stalling their advance to Terra so they could side with the winner. Instead they just went for a super-dull version of knights in shining armour.
When this was part of the lore, their behaviour afterwards made perfect sense. They then in fact had a 'dark secret' that would forever stain their honour and the honour of the Lion beyond repair. The Calibanites could reveal their shame, and so had to be put to the sword.

I think they recycles it for the White Scars,if i'm not mistaken,and so couldnt use it again

Why?No idea.

jimmyzimms
17-03-2016, 01:45
It would make an interesting HH story to document traitors in some of the loyalist chapters. Traitor Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Space Wolves? It's quite hard to imagine



Yeah, I've not seen a specific mention of Imperial Fists or Wolves, but there's a passing reference to traitor Ultramarines I think in FW's HH6, although I'm having trouble tracking it down now. I would be just as interested to hear a story of loyal Word Bearers, but the assumption is in the book as well.

There's mention in HH Book 5 (IIRC but could have been 4) of a Space Wolves force with the Eye of Horus on their chest running around so it evidently had occurred but I think it's safe to say that it was a very rare thing in most loyalist. There's an Ultra Blackshield mentioned in Book 6 as well (the part where Garro meets with a force of them).

Cybtroll
17-03-2016, 07:55
I still hope (being a DA player with an edge for Chaos) that DA are the traitor legion, while Calibanites were the loyalists... and/or a crossover with the Alpha Legion (you know: first Legion, "Alpha", Alfarius, Omegarion and so on. Hints are all over the place).
I'm afraid I will be disappointed, anyway. But I'm waiting the end of series to catch up (I hate to have to wait to finish a story).

Snake Tortoise
17-03-2016, 08:41
There's mention in HH Book 5 (IIRC but could have been 4) of a Space Wolves force with the Eye of Horus on their chest running around so it evidently had occurred but I think it's safe to say that it was a very rare thing in most loyalist. There's an Ultra Blackshield mentioned in Book 6 as well (the part where Garro meets with a force of them).

That's interesting, thanks.

A chaos Space Wolf would be something to behold

Azazyll
17-03-2016, 12:01
That's interesting, thanks.

A chaos Space Wolf would be something to behold

There are already Chaos Space Wolves in 40k - the traitors who helped Huron Blackheart seize the Wolf of Fenris strike cruiser and became Red Corsairs. So the existing lore does not paint SW as incorruptible.

Gdolkin
17-03-2016, 22:26
Retribution page 188 "None can say for certain how many White Scars or Iron Hands, for example, served in the ranks of the Traitors, for the records have long since been purged less any hint of dishonour endure." The tone of much of book two and three also strongly imply that some Iron Hands either went mad or decided that might made right and went over to Horus. The Iron Hands come across to me as one of the most likely to turn of the loyalists, as their entire value system has come under question. Plus they, like the Raven Guard, served very closely with Horus' legion. The FW books are also much more explicit, saying that the White Scars "who had declared for Horus" were purged (p20).
Cheers, and fair enough. I haven't had access to the actual 70quid fw books, but I have come across mention of IH post-Istvaan going rogue, rejecting any authority and going off on solo suicide by vengeance type business, from the Raukaan book and BL HH stories. I don't reckon there'd be many joining Horus though, they're too angry with the traitors, I'd have thought.

Good posts, and a good thread/observation/discussion. While I can see that losing half your legion, your primarch and homeworld all at once would be much more embarrassing than say, the White Scars' handful of renegades or a few traitor Ultramarines out of a quarter million of 'em, these other revelations do rather make the Dark Angels of 40k look like self-obsessed, self-flagellating tedious idiots :(

jimmyzims, your sig quote is ace :)

Azazyll
17-03-2016, 22:47
Cheers, and fair enough. I haven't had access to the actual 70quid fw books, but I have come across mention of IH post-Istvaan going rogue, rejecting any authority and going off on solo suicide by vengeance type business, from the Raukaan book and BL HH stories. I don't reckon there'd be many joining Horus though, they're too angry with the traitors, I'd have thought.

Good posts, and a good thread/observation/discussion. While I can see that losing half your legion, your primarch and homeworld all at once would be much more embarrassing than say, the White Scars' handful of renegades or a few traitor Ultramarines out of a quarter million of 'em, these other revelations do rather make the Dark Angels look like self-obsessed, self-flagellating tedious idiots :(

Yeah, I think Alan Bligh is clever enough to recognize and handle setting up the psychology of the Dark Angels as a crucial factor here. There are already a fair number of menacing references in that direction in the books.

As to the Iron Hands going traitor, my sense was that the death of Ferrus was seen by some as a failure on his part. The philosophy he espoused had no room for being ruled by your passions, as Ferrus clearly was at the end; he broke his own rules, in other words, and that (combined with his failure) made him look weak to many Iron Hands. In that environment, to the winner go the spoils - Horus was the strong one. The fact that the Iron Hands were so close to the Sons of Horus made this easier - I love the Iron Hands version of the Eye of Horus that some who had served with the Luna Wolves bore. That not only enforced the personal nature of the betrayal, but gave an in for some to switch to Horus' side.

Plus if Autek Mor is any indication, it was quite possible to be an Iron Hand and personally dislike Ferrus, although of course, as with Mor, this didn't necessarily mean betraying him. But there are a variety of reasons that Bligh has cleverly sewn in subtle ways that prepare the groundwork for treasonous Iron Hands, even more so than he has done with many of the other legions. That for me has been the real joy of the Heresy: no monolithic blocks, and from an in-universe perspective no clear black and white, while at the same time not wavering in the absolute evil of Chaos itself. It's a much more nuanced and engaging story for it.

Gdolkin
17-03-2016, 23:53
Ah yeah, I can kinda see the identity/worldview crisis caused by Ferrus' weakness and defeat, and good point about the Eye of Vigilance. I love that symbol too, it looks so cool but I can't have that traitor filth mingling with my loyal, bitter, angry and unhinged Clan Morragul. I've made Autek Mor out of the Captain from BaC and the FW MkIII Techmarine's lovely bionic head, but i dunno what his proper weapons should be so he's still got Aethon's combimelta and chain fist.

Azazyll
18-03-2016, 03:41
He wields an axe Paragon blade and a vulkite charger - identical to the FW iron father, but for some reason they didn't call him Autek Mor. He gets a fantastic story arc in book six

Gdolkin
18-03-2016, 15:49
Ah cheers, but also damnit! I've got that fw Iron Father too, but he doesn't look like he's the boss when he's stood next to my Steloc Aethon/Autek Mor. Goddamn 70quid books, I haven't even got Massacre for my Iron Hands needs..

Razios
19-03-2016, 16:34
http://i.imgur.com/ZDE5NHy.png

this link explain well, giving example as night lord atacking traitor, maring using again the healdry of dusk raider(Dusk raider vs Death guard?) on the traitor side it said thing like Great company of space wolf or combined force of iron hand and Sons of horus...mmmmmmm

Snake Tortoise
19-03-2016, 18:43
http://i.imgur.com/ZDE5NHy.png

this link explain well, giving example as night lord atacking traitor, maring using again the healdry of dusk raider(Dusk raider vs Death guard?) on the traitor side it said thing like Great company of space wolf or combined force of iron hand and Sons of horus...mmmmmmm

That's a good bit of fluff you found. The legions are easy to think of in terms of loyalist and traitors so it's good to see reference to traitors among loyal legions and vice versa

Now I think of it BL have missed an opportunity not involving more good-traitors and bad-loyalists in the HH series so far.

That just jogged my memory... wasn't there a traitor Ultramarine or something in Vengeful Spirit? :eyebrows:

bound for glory
19-03-2016, 20:19
It sucks that my wife would kill me if i bought those very expensive books...I really wish i held the purse strings in this house.

Azazyll
19-03-2016, 20:57
That's what I've been saying, exactly. The incidence of treachery in loyalist legions is now a much bigger deal than it was when the Dark Angels lore was first written, and because of that the Dark Angels are no longer unique in their divided loyalties. Greater nuance will be required going forward to explain this discrepancy.

I don't have the most recent Dark Angels codex, is there any indication of this situation there?

Drakcore Bloodtear
19-03-2016, 21:08
Also if I remember right Luther simply turn to chaos rather than pledging his allegiance to Horus. The fact that half the Legion turned in an isolated incident, during such a turbulent time and especially with their standoff-ish nature, meant that the DA's paranoia over the event started to grow...

Azazyll
19-03-2016, 23:35
Also if I remember right Luther simply turn to chaos rather than pledging his allegiance to Horus. The fact that half the Legion turned in an isolated incident, during such a turbulent time and especially with their standoff-ish nature, meant that the DA's paranoia over the event started to grow...

A really excellent point! Chaos directly rather than the esteemed Warmaster. Interesting. Did the rank and file of the Fallen understand this?

StrikeDeath
20-03-2016, 01:33
A really excellent point! Chaos directly rather than the esteemed Warmaster. Interesting. Did the rank and file of the Fallen understand this?

It's unclear. The rank and file will have done as it was told. So if a command to fire on the invading/enemy forces comes through from the guys in charge, you're still in or dealing with elements of the Heresy/Scouring/clean-up you're probably going to fire.

It's only when the dust settles, Caliban's in ruins, a micro Warp Storm engulfs the planet (and elements of the Lion's fleet) that a standard marine can look around and go "yup, we ********d up".

The upper levels of the DA on Caliban though... probably would have known they're siding with something not-Imperium but knonwing exactly that they're siding with Chaos? Again unclear (which is why the Fallen are linked with Chaos but for the most part aren't actually working for the Ruinous Powers, at least that's my take on it).

Grubnar
23-03-2016, 02:11
Do we even know who the Fallen are?


When Leman Russ meets up with a fleet from Caliban hiding in a nebula (while fighting the Alpha Legion), they seem to him to be Loyal, and they are the ones whos black armour has a green tint to it?

Spiney Norman
24-03-2016, 11:46
Yeah, I've not seen a specific mention of Imperial Fists or Wolves, but there's a passing reference to traitor Ultramarines I think in FW's HH6, although I'm having trouble tracking it down now. I would be just as interested to hear a story of loyal Word Bearers, but the assumption is in the book as well.

There are two named loyalist word bearers that I am aware of, the first is the Word Bearer's representative in the Crusader Host who had been away from the Legion since before their corruption (I'm struggling to recall his name atm), he is transformed into a daemon host by Jarulek and Sor-Talgron in The Purge.

The second is Barthusa Narek, who was seeking the fulgurite in Deathfire in order to kill Lorgar (or so he claimed). You also probably have characters like Talgron himself (at least early on in the book) who were just sort of going along with the Legions new direction because to do otherwise would have got him killed but had no particular loyalty to chaos.

I think the general sense is that any large concentration of loyalist word bearers were purged sometime during the 60 year gap between the pilgrimage of Lorgar and Isstvann III, the WBs had plenty of time to get their house in order, unlike the other traitor legions who we very much running to catch up by the time the heresy really got going.


Also if I remember right Luther simply turn to chaos rather than pledging his allegiance to Horus. The fact that half the Legion turned in an isolated incident, during such a turbulent time and especially with their standoff-ish nature, meant that the DA's paranoia over the event started to grow...

I think that's crucial actually, in someways Luther was even more of a heretic than Horus, he managed to find the chaos gods all on his own without any help from Erebus, Horus was well and truly stitched up, but Luther, like Erebus, went willingly and knowing exactly what he was doing.

SuperHappyTime
25-03-2016, 17:55
While the legions turned full traitor/loyalist, there were still the occasional defects and remain-loyal marines that popped up.

Paranoia is just the Dark Angels "defect", much like the Blood Angels' Red Thirst and the Space Wolves whole turning into a wolf thing.

The entire issue I have with the whole "Fallen are actually loyal, the remaining are actually the Fallen" story is that the half of the faction known as the Fallen disappeared into the Warp and will come back allied with the forces of Chaos. I believe either the 6th or 7th Ed book tells the story of a group of IG fighting the CSM, the DA showing up to kill them, and then the DA attacking the IG to cover up the fact of the Fallen. Of course that could be the cover story, what with the Wulfen appearing and then hordes of Daemons chasing after them. Still, you'd think loyal DA would know not to open fire upon IG when acting normally.

Could it just be a massive Tzeenchian plot? Probably.

Matthueycamo
25-03-2016, 19:53
I don't think that works. 10000 years of the chapter being chaos but not showing any signs? Plus all the successor chaptes either being traior or hoodwinked for 10000 years. Very very few come back from Chaos, a whole legion doing it whilt killing those who found out and coming up with a whole story and keeping it under wraps for that time. Bit unbelieveable really.

It only works if they are both mostly loyal and thought the other side was traitor with most of the fallen tricked into doing what they did. Or perhaps the Lion was breifly tempted by Horus but resisted in the end. There has to be something more that s worth keeping a secret than just a section of the chapter rebelled. Other Legions and chapters have had civil wars and been fine afterwards or have had tratior marines some have even rebelled and been allowed back into the fold subject to undertaking a crusade. There is I think a missing piece of the puzzle we as 40K fans don't know about. Maybe GW does not even know yet lol but I think there must be more to it that the DA are more paranoid than other chapters for it to make sense.

Lupe
25-03-2016, 22:26
There has to be something more that s worth keeping a secret than just a section of the chapter rebelled. Other Legions and chapters have had civil wars and been fine afterwards or have had tratior marines some have even rebelled and been allowed back into the fold subject to undertaking a crusade. There is I think a missing piece of the puzzle we as 40K fans don't know about. Maybe GW does not even know yet lol but I think there must be more to it that the DA are more paranoid than other chapters for it to make sense.

There IS something more than just simply having a faction of traitors.

It's something called hubris. Both the First Legion, and their primarch have this whole thing where they think they are better than everyone else, and where they need to constantly prove it. They simply hold themselves to a higher standard than the other legions.

Yes, sure, objectively the fact that they had a traitor faction in their ranks is far from unprecedented. Pretty much every loyalist Legion either had a traitor faction to begin with, or had forces defect to Horus' side when his treachery became known. The Dark Angels are simply not as good as accepting that fact. Their pride just gets in the way of that... Bog-standard human doubt and fallibility, multiplied by mass indoctrination and the stunted emotional development that is inherent to the process of creating Astartes... Those three factors alone are enough to account for the entire bloodline's need for repentance.

And if that's not enough, there are other factors that would rankle against this mass induced pride:
No other Legion (traitor or loyalist) lost its primarch in a fight against his own lieutenant, let alone to a mere enhanced human.
No other loyalist Legion discovered its traitor elements *after* the Horus Heresy was all but over
No other loyalist Legion lost it homeworld, neither during, nor after the Heresy, despite attacks by traitor Astartes against pretty much every single one of the loyalist legions' world, (possibly bar Inwit) at some point since Isvaan V.

Phunting
26-03-2016, 05:06
The scale of Luther's betrayal. It included the homeworld of the Dark Angels, and the Lion's most trusted confidant. The number of Fallen may also be greater than other loyalist legion traitors, but we won't know for sure until the HH series get wrapped up.The nuance you ask for seems to be this. It wasn't just a small group of mislead marines who turned, as we have seen in the other legions. It was a significant number (half quoted above, not sure but certainly a very large proportion), led by the legion's second in command and Primarch's surrogate father, who took their entire homeworld with them leading to its ultimate destruction. This is quite a significantly different deal to the sporadic instances shown in other legions.


I'm personally rather disappointed that GW dropped the idea of the DA being 'on the fence', stalling their advance to Terra so they could side with the winner. Instead they just went for a super-dull version of knights in shining armour.
When this was part of the lore, their behaviour afterwards made perfect sense. They then in fact had a 'dark secret' that would forever stain their honour and the honour of the Lion beyond repair. The Calibanites could reveal their shame, and so had to be put to the sword.Yeah, me too. Unfortunately Thorpe's book led to such an outpouring of nerd rage, as if the mere suggestion that this could be the case was somehow an insult to DA players themselves, that GW swiftly decided never to mention that again. Shame.

ryng_sting
26-03-2016, 14:27
I'm personally rather disappointed that GW dropped the idea of the DA being 'on the fence', stalling their advance to Terra so they could side with the winner.


Think it only fair to point out that 'idea' was never anything more than one character's supposition. And the author of the novel in which it occurs made it clear in a later piece of HH fiction that the character was putting two and two together and coming up with five.

Over to Phunting.


GW swiftly decided never to mention that again. Shame.

That comment suggests you either never haven't read much of the HH fiction concerning the DA, or weren't paying an awful lot of attention.

Azazyll
26-03-2016, 15:33
I've noticed a lot of readers are willing to take unreliable or in-universe narrators as absolute truth (the Omegon primarch theory, for instance, could easily be a grand conspiracy, but is taken as gospel by many). One of the things I've really enjoyed about the way GW have handled the Heresy is the amount that's still mysterious and open to interpretation, even as we have a revolution in our understanding of it. There are still more questions than answers, and for a shared universe designed to encourage creativity in gameplay that's ideal.

Phunting
27-03-2016, 03:04
That comment suggests you either never haven't read much of the HH fiction concerning the DA, or weren't paying an awful lot of attention.From what I've seen, while the HH have been more than happy to add shades to the Lion's character, it's been more along the lines of his alienation from the other Primarchs, and even his own men. They've not explored at all the concept that he'd be willing to declare for Horus if he thought he was going to win that I've seen. I'm more than happy to be corrected if wrong on this however, where has this been mentioned?


I've noticed a lot of readers are willing to take unreliable or in-universe narrators as absolute truthTo an extent. Though I've seen just as many insisting on dismissing something because it's from an in-universe narrator, and thinking that it shouldn't be considered unless it's portrayed as from an external viewpoint.

In the end, I care extremely little on what the 'source' is of these things- after all, it's all made up! I'm interested in the stories and ideas within 40k, and this is one I find interesting and would like to see expanded.

Lupe
27-03-2016, 03:20
They've not explored at all the concept that he'd be willing to declare for Horus if he thought he was going to win. I'm more than happy to be corrected if wrong on this however, where has this been mentioned?

They sort of did touch the topic in the Savage Weapons short story.



The warriors fell silent as their lords returned – still distant, but close enough to be heard. The Lion acknowledged his warriors with a curt nod. They responded with salutes, forming the sign of the aquila over their tabards. Curze ignored his sons, still addressing his brother.
‘Horus himself charged me to speak those words to you,’ he said. If the Night Lord had seemed cadaverous before, now he was practically exhumed. The primarch’s eyes, with what little white actually showed around the black pupils, were inhumanly bloodshot. His gaunt features were dusted with a faint sheen of cold sweat, and a trickle of dark blood ran from his nose. He wiped it away on the back of his gauntlet. ‘Savage weapons, one and all, too dangerous to be wielded without cost. That is all history will see of us. Even you, Lion. Even you.’
The Lion shook his crowned head. ‘You underestimate our father’s empire.’
‘And you overestimate humanity. Look at us. See how we’ve duelled for the last two years out here in the void. A crusade between two Legions and countless worlds that is still only just beginning. You have chased me for two years, across a hundred battlefields, and why do we meet now? Because I allow it.’
The Lion conceded to that with a slight nod. ‘You hide, like vermin fleeing the coming of dawn.’
Curze shrugged, the barest rise of one shoulder guard. ‘You will never reach Terra in time to defend it, brother. The warp will not let you. This crusade will not let you. I will not let you. Do you think the archives of future generations will look upon you kindly for your absence?’
Curze paused in his diatribe, wiping away a fresh trickle of blood. ‘Or will the human descendants of this Imperium look to your legend and whisper of doubt? Will they ask why you were not present to defend the Throneworld, and speak likely lies that perhaps the Lion was not as loyal and true as the mighty, perfect Rogal Dorn? Perhaps the Lion and his Dark Angels waited in the deepest reaches of space, watching, listening, and deciding to join the fight only when an obvious victor emerged.’
The Night Lord’s eyes glinted again, with both amusement and sorrow. ‘That is your fate, Lion. That is your future.’
‘Forgive me, brother.’
Curze tilted his head. ‘For what?’
Corswain was watching both primarchs yet still never saw what happened, such was the speed of the Lion’s movements. One moment the two brothers were speaking – the Lion’s features cast down in contemplation, Curze’s eyes fever-bright as he promised an ignoble fate. The next, Curze’s features twisted into a taut rictus of pain, blood running between his clenched teeth. The Lion held tight to the grip of his blade, buried to the hilt in his brother’s stomach. More than a metre of shining, bloodstained steel thrust from the back of Curze’s armour.
‘For such a dishonourable blow,’ the Lion whispered into Curze’s pale, bleeding face. ‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’

Basically, the Lion *isn't* willing to declare for Horus, regardless of the odds, and he doesn't care about what people will think about his legacy, so long as he knows he stood for the cause he believed in.

Lord Malorne
27-03-2016, 08:10
Retribution page 188 "None can say for certain how many White Scars or Iron Hands, for example, served in the ranks of the Traitors, for the records have long since been purged less any hint of dishonour endure." The tone of much of book two and three also strongly imply that some Iron Hands either went mad or decided that might made right and went over to Horus. The Iron Hands come across to me as one of the most likely to turn of the loyalists, as their entire value system has come under question. Plus they, like the Raven Guard, served very closely with Horus' legion. The FW books are also much more explicit, saying that the White Scars "who had declared for Horus" were purged (p20).

Erg FW should stay away from lore, the Index Astartes established that not a single Iron Hands fell to the temptation of chaos, now this retcon...

Lord Damocles
27-03-2016, 09:03
Erg FW should stay away from lore, the Index Astartes established that not a single Iron Hands fell to the temptation of chaos, now this retcon...
No it didn't.
('Index Astartes: Hand of Justice' in White Dwarf 262 (UK), pgs.64-70).


It says that '...not a single warrior was tempted' - during the retaking of the Contqual sub-sector (pg.70).

agurus1
27-03-2016, 09:19
I like the fluff about the Iron Hands who turned their coats after istvann. It capitalizes on the "might makes right" kind of mind set their legion had.

Azazyll
27-03-2016, 18:51
Erg FW should stay away from lore, the Index Astartes established that not a single Iron Hands fell to the temptation of chaos, now this retcon...

And as much as I loved the Index Astartes articles, FW is even better. I buy these books for the lore. It's the best I've read in twenty and more years of 40k.

totgeboren
28-03-2016, 10:54
I don't think that works. 10000 years of the chapter being chaos but not showing any signs? Plus all the successor chaptes either being traior or hoodwinked for 10000 years. Very very few come back from Chaos, a whole legion doing it whilt killing those who found out and coming up with a whole story and keeping it under wraps for that time. Bit unbelieveable really.

It only works if they are both mostly loyal and thought the other side was traitor with most of the fallen tricked into doing what they did. Or perhaps the Lion was breifly tempted by Horus but resisted in the end. There has to be something more that s worth keeping a secret than just a section of the chapter rebelled. Other Legions and chapters have had civil wars and been fine afterwards or have had tratior marines some have even rebelled and been allowed back into the fold subject to undertaking a crusade. There is I think a missing piece of the puzzle we as 40K fans don't know about. Maybe GW does not even know yet lol but I think there must be more to it that the DA are more paranoid than other chapters for it to make sense.

Yeah, the idea by Thorpe as I understood it was never that the DA went full Chaos worship. It was simply that the rather paranoid Jonson didn't trust the Emperor or Horus, and so just stayed out of the fight until it was clear the loyalists would win. The Lion was honour-bound to defend Terra, and so not coming to Terras aid is basically the same thing as being a traitor, even if he never dealt with any warp-powers or even agents of Horus at all.

When the legion did not support Terra the Calibanites, who were loyalists (since Luther was a man of his word, unlike Jonson), interpreted the Lions behaviour as endorsing Horus, and thus regarded his fleet as traitor forces when they returned to Caliban. That meant the fleet would need to kill all the marines on Caliban so they could never reveal the true reason for Jonsons late arrival at Terra, and in a last act of desperation Luther seeks and gains the aid of the Old Gods, only to finally understand that the bargain he has made to defend his home and honour has turned him into the monster he had dedicated his life at eradicating.

Something like that, one of the best idea Thorpe has had, since it really hammered home why the DA are so secretive, and why they go to such lengths to capture the Fallen, and why only the inner circle ever get to know of their shame.

I mean, all loyalists have traitors, sometimes even have whole chapters who have turned, so there has to be something special about the Dark Angels who escaped Calibans destruction (compared to DAs who turn renegade in later years).

Now there is nothing, except a bunch of bad DA novels and a storyline that makes no sense.

Gdolkin
28-03-2016, 12:58
It's occurred to me that the Angels Sanguine are a bit like the Dark Angels of the Blood Angels, if you will, except their secrecy and monkish hoods are actually hiding both the twin curse all Blood Angels suffer and something even more shocking and worth covering up (vampiric faces, I reckon).. Which also makes the Dark Angels look like uptight sillyboys

Cybtroll
29-03-2016, 17:00
For me and my DA the story will always be like totgeboren tells it.
Sooner or later, a retcon will catch me while I'm right ^^. Hopefully.