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Captain Optimus Metallus
10-07-2006, 18:07
Alright, after reading the Tyranid Codex, it's apparent that Hive Fleets Kraken, Behemoth, and Leviathan are just the vanguards of a much larger force. A force which'll be in the galaxy in about a century. Neverminding all the other threats out there, especially the Necrons, how in the world can the 40k universe continue as is? It seems like the entire galaxy will soon become a great big happy meal for the Tyranids or the C'Tan.

Kymar
10-07-2006, 18:10
That's the idea, no matter how hard humanity fights, there will aways be somthing else challenging it. People are not suppose to win in the 40k universe, only survive to fight some more.

PS-The Tyranid & C'Tan work on much larger time frames, so unless you expand this to Warhammer 40 million, I don't think humanity is going to see the whole size of these enemies.

Captain Optimus Metallus
10-07-2006, 18:21
I'm not sure about the C'Tan, but I just read the Tyranid Codex and someone there said that the full force of the Hive Mind would be thrown against the Imperium within the next century. Where's the quote? Ah, here it is.


The ramifications then are clear. In the past 250 years we have been engaged upon a war in which we considered victory a possibility, provided we effect nigh-intolerable sacrifices. But should those fleets we have encountered prove the merest fraction of a terrible whole, we have, at best, a century before the full force is brought to bear against us. It is the belief of Strategic Intelligence Collective 827/II that current mobilization levels will need to be increased a minimum of 500% if we are to even stand a chance of slowing the advance of the Hive Mind. Every able-bodied man and woman on every world in Ultima Segmentum, Segmentum Pacificus, and Segmentum Solar will need to be drafted into the Imperial Guard if we are to have any chance of repelling this foe.

Even without the predations of the Traitor Legions, the Orkoid menace and a hundred other foes, our continued existence as a species appears now tenuous at best.

I commit our Souls to the Emperor, for only Faith in Him can save us.

Kymar
10-07-2006, 18:27
That's just a prediction by a paranoid commander looking for resources. :P

Joking aside, that is a personal story and such is great for setting the mood, but means next to nothing towards the future direction of the 40k story. For example, Tau are a tiny problem far way from earth, but they are getting much more story involvment then their size warrents because they are consider a popular army and people want to have a story reason to play with them.

Mantan
10-07-2006, 19:18
Yes, unless a primarch comes back, the Emperor is finally let out of the goddamn golden throne, or something happens with the Eldar or Tau that is completely amazing and awesome, EVERYONE IS COMPLETELY SCREWED BEYOND REASON.

This is one one the problems I have with the 40k universe. Almost everyone in power inside the Imperium is a giant right wing bible (or whatever the emperor has) thumping nutter. At the heart of all the Imperiums problems is the lack of caring for the people, everyone is treated like dirt. The Emperor tried to make life good, but when he got pwnz0rd the GRWBTNs (see above) took over and screwed everything up.

Alot of the 40k universe has some extreme similarities to the revelations in the bible (And no, I'm not a bible freak, I just am sent to a catholic school). There are ridiculous amounts of similarities. Anyways, under that context, the Emperor will die (or rather, already has.) and come back to pwn t3h necrons and get Chaos to go away....

btw, this means Chaos is actually good if it's based on the revelations.

The way things look on all of the maps, the Tyranids are just sending tendrills of increasing size into the galaxy. I doubt they would set loose their entire fleet until they were ready to finish everything off.

Lord Dante
10-07-2006, 19:50
Ive always wondered what Chaos would do if the Nids did trash the Imperium? - perhaps they exist elsewhere in the universe...

I rekon they will just invent some sort of Anti-Nid weapon that kills them really quickly if it all gets a bit much - fluff wise :p

Gen_eV
10-07-2006, 19:50
This is one one the problems I have with the 40k universe. Almost everyone in power inside the Imperium is a giant right wing bible (or whatever the emperor has) thumping nutter. At the heart of all the Imperiums problems is the lack of caring for the people, everyone is treated like dirt. The Emperor tried to make life good, but when he got pwnz0rd the GRWBTNs (see above) took over and screwed everything up.
Are you saying you think it's a bad place, or that you don't like the fact it's a bad place? Yes, the Imperium's critically flawed, but that's what makes it interesting. Humanity is screwed through it's own actions, not those of others. Even if the Imperium defeated all enemies and ensured eternal survival of the human race, 99% of people would still have terrible lives. The bleak outlook's cool. Maybe that's me being a misanthropic git, but I really appreciate the pessimistic view of humans.



The way things look on all of the maps, the Tyranids are just sending tendrills of increasing size into the galaxy. I doubt they would set loose their entire fleet until they were ready to finish everything off.And why aren't they ready now? The reason they've sent small forces is expediency, nothing else. The first Hive Fleets are probably a long way ahead of the main force, acting as forerunners/scouts. It's posible they were sent out as the previous galaxy was still being 'eaten', before the full Tyranid force had gathered together ready to move on. In my opinion, the Tyranids aren't waiting 'to be ready', they're just not here yet. Remember, the Tyranids have no reason NOT to send their entire force asap, as they can just eat the corpses of their fallen and reintegrate them later. If the battle left all life in the galaxy dead barring one hive ship, said ship would just go around eating all the biomass and spawning more nids until our galay was utterly empty and the fleet was once again enormous.

Outlaw289
10-07-2006, 19:51
A big happy last-resort alliance between Imperials-Tau-Orks-Eldar will fight the Xenos/For the Greater Good/Buggers/Lesser Races, if 40k continues at its current pace

Zzarchov
10-07-2006, 19:53
the other thing is, this isn't an Imperium vs everyone battle where it needs all these rescources. Its an everyone vs everyone battle. Perhaps a giant Ork Mega-waaaagh counter attacks the bugs (A new fashion craze for nobs to wear bigger and bigger horns), or perhaps the Necrons harvest a few hive-fleets in a single swoop or in turn Chaos forces destroy a C'tan permanently to slow down the great work..etc etc etc.

Outlaw289
10-07-2006, 19:56
I'd love to see a massive Ork Waaagh vs Hive Fleet battle

There was a huge topic about it months ago

Lord Dante
10-07-2006, 20:18
Have you read 'warriors of Ultramar' - damm good read, Nids are scary...

Gen.Steiner
10-07-2006, 20:33
I believe the quote is:

"This generation fights and dies to ensure that the next can do the same."

The Imperium is doomed, but we die to postpone the inevitable and increase the chance of the re-awakening of the God-Emperor. Basically.

Kjell
10-07-2006, 20:39
I would like to point out that the background for each faction is, most likely, somewhat exaggerated... If you were to believe the codexes, the Tyranids, the Necrons and the Chaos Legions are each the most fearsome fighting force in the galaxy and will crush everything before them. :p

Tyranids are nasty, but they're not the end of everything. After all, what's roaming about now might be all we get. The only reason it's unknown is because, well, the Tyranids wandered in from pretty nowhere and no one knows much about what's happening on the galactic edge anyway.

EarthScorpion
10-07-2006, 20:48
Yes, but the difference is that the Tyranid background is actually true. The other factions are exagerated.

For an explanation of that, check my sig.

To be honest, no-one knows how big the 'nid fleets are. Almost everything about their size mentioned in the Codex is in-game prejudice, and it is sadly lacking in detailing what the 'nids say themselves.

Inquisitor S.
10-07-2006, 20:49
A big happy last-resort alliance between Imperials-Tau-Orks-Eldar will fight the Xenos/For the Greater Good/Buggers/Lesser Races, if 40k continues at its current pace

What pace are you talking about? Warhammer 40.000 has not advanced since Rogue Trader came out. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only stagnation, or why do you believe GW does everything to make sure the so-called decisive world-wide campaigns are always a draw?

From time to time they invent a new super-scary and dangerous species that replaces the one before that as ULTIMATE1111!!!!1111 threat to the galaxy and then that's it. Like that it was in 1st, 2nd, 3rd and now 4th edition, so who cares... And even that new race is crowbarred into the existing timeframe. As far as I am aware the history goes till 005.M42 as last new date and that wll probably never even reached in codeizes.

Gen.Steiner
10-07-2006, 20:53
...it is sadly lacking in detailing what the 'nids say themselves.

Do the Tyranids even speak? How do they communicate? I thought it was through EXTREME PAINFUL HORRIBLE VIOLENCE +1 of Rending (Claw).

Outlaw289
10-07-2006, 21:07
What pace are you talking about? Warhammer 40.000 has not advanced since Rogue Trader came out. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only stagnation, or why do you believe GW does everything to make sure the so-called decisive world-wide campaigns are always a draw?

From time to time they invent a new super-scary and dangerous species that replaces the one before that as ULTIMATE1111!!!!1111 threat to the galaxy and then that's it. Like that it was in 1st, 2nd, 3rd and now 4th edition, so who cares... And even that new race is crowbarred into the existing timeframe. As far as I am aware the history goes till 005.M42 as last new date and that wll probably never even reached in codeizes.

Nevermind, that isn't what I meant

schoon
10-07-2006, 23:28
I believe that Inquisitor S. has it correct in principle...

The W40K universe exists in a constant state of dynamic stasis, meaning that though there may be ebb and flow locally, or over the short term, over the large scale (time or space) things pretty much stay the same.

In game design terms this gives you continuity in the long run by keeping all your factions at each other's throats for - um - ever ;)

Temmy
11-07-2006, 01:39
Neither Chaos nor the C'tan will be denied what the want..and that is humanity. When the time comes, they will fight the Tyrannids rather than let Humanity be consumed.

Gen.Steiner
11-07-2006, 03:59
Face it, in the end, it'll be the Tyranids against the Necrons.

But that end won't be for another good few hundred years, and GW show no signs of wanting to explore beyond 005/6.M42...

cailus
11-07-2006, 04:09
Future 40k fluff movements:

It turns out the Emperor is a Democrat and he awakens and implements a wide ranging program of social reform. This includes resurrecting John Maynard Keynes and successfully implementing the Great Society program (well he's had 38,000 years to think about it). Peace and prosperity prevail.

Inquisitor Torquemada announces an amnesty for all and introduces "The Imperial Bill Of Rights." It is ratified at the Convention of Massattehcus and becomes the cornerstone of Imperial society.

The Marines help improve society by helping old ladies cross the road and making macaroni necklaces with children from economically disadvantaged backgrounds.

People interbreed with Eldar and Tau because that's what Star Trek would do.

Chaos turns out to be a giant haemorrhoid. The threat of Chaos is removed by the application of soothing creams.

The Necrons are eaten by the Nids.

The Orks are eaten by the Nids.

The Nids dies from the common cold. Apparently despite their vast knowledge the Hive Mind neglected to take into account the effects of local bacteria.

*In real life*

In a bid to improve efficiency and profitability, GW scrap every single product line other than Marines. GW's aim is to have a Codex for every one of the 1000 Space Marine Chapters by 2050.

Outlaw289
11-07-2006, 05:09
Face it, in the end, it'll be the Tyranids against the Necrons.

But that end won't be for another good few hundred years, and GW show no signs of wanting to explore beyond 005/6.M42...

Lets just hope the Great Tombs were programmed by Microsoft and the Imperium stacked up on Raid :angel:

Gen.Steiner
11-07-2006, 05:19
MicroMcMegaSuperHardSoft...Donalds.

It's where all the TechPriests go for that vital bit of, well, bits, for their latest creations - and it's already declared that the GothicArches 398.M29 which the Great Tombs use are now incompatible with GothicDoorways, which the Imperium will now be switching to...

Ardathair
11-07-2006, 07:08
Posted by Inquisitor S.:
What pace are you talking about? Warhammer 40.000 has not advanced since Rogue Trader came out. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only stagnation, or why do you believe GW does everything to make sure the so-called decisive world-wide campaigns are always a draw?

In Rogue Trader the Tyranids were just entering the Galaxy and the Imperium did not know that the Genestealers were a part of them. By second Ed. the Imperium found out the Genestealers were the vanguard. In third Edition the Tyranids had invaded deeper into Imperial space than was previously mentioned, and ate the Squats.

Necros and Tau were not just writen is as enemies the Imperium has been fighting for centuries, they were just waking up and evolving, respectively.

Although not great leaps and bounds over the past 20 years, would you really want the army or minis you bought three months ago to be obsolete because of advances in the time line?

Gen.Steiner
11-07-2006, 07:31
Thing is, they wouldn't be obsolete.

You can always wargame the 'past' of 40K - witness the pre-Heresy armies people have, for example.

GodofWarTx
11-07-2006, 07:43
i would prefer a background that sheds a feeling of doom on *EVERY* single race, to REALLY bring the "grim far future" to life for everyone.


i would like to see some peoples perspectives on how to accomplish that little feat, heh, as im struggling. =/

Gen.Steiner
11-07-2006, 07:49
The Tyranids will eventually consume everything, and thus starve to death. Shortly afterwards, the universe's long-awaited heat death will occur, and anything not eaten by the 'nids will be annihilated.

There you go - everyone's doomed! :D

Ardathair
11-07-2006, 08:08
Posted by Gen.Steiner:
Thing is, they wouldn't be obsolete.

They still won't be in the current rules. Besides I hate having to drive 4 hours just to play a game against squats.

With quicker turn over, every gaming group would settle into playing a limited range of time frame/codex creep.

I just see too swift an advancement of the time line as cutting off older gamers from newer ones. And you thought GW didn't like vets. before.:D

Gen.Steiner
11-07-2006, 08:12
Here's an idea:

1) Stop 'updating' the rules
2) Update the background instead.

That way, not only can Billy's Squats play Jo-Anne's Dark Eldar, but they can both play Xprkl's Tau...

...and all of them can be beaten by Macharius's Imperial Army. :D

El_Machinae
11-07-2006, 10:42
Heat death is over-rated (I often am confronted with the concept of Heat Death when discussing life extension - curing aging, it seems, isn't viable because billions of years from now there will be no heat left anyway); there are theories about creating new universes and new big bangs to move into.


Thing is, they wouldn't be obsolete.

You can always wargame the 'past' of 40K - witness the pre-Heresy armies people have, for example.

Isn't it a bit like watching football on tape, if you already know the end score?

I like the desperation, because every victory is absolutely essential and still might have been phyrric.

Kjell
11-07-2006, 10:44
Yes, the Tyranids will devour everything, in the same way the Necrons will enslave all life, the Orks will unite and overwhelm the galaxy and the Chaos Gods will cause the downfall of all civilization. ;)


The Tyranids could wipe all life out, yes. But it is not certain. The current fleets could be all there is. There could be a couple more fleets coming, or even a whole lot of fleets coming. The Tyranids could all be, fleet by fleet, slain. At a hideous cost, of course. :p

The Necrons might complete their Great Work, or that Ynnead fellow the Eldar are fiddling with might awake and put a stop to that. Or the Star Child decides it's time to stop snoozing and finally do something about all the unwanted aliens running around.


Basically, stating that one faction will "win" over all the others cheapens 40K. Some have pretty decent chances but I wouldn't credit anyone with victory until it has actually happened. :o

Jet Black Mamba
11-07-2006, 11:15
Isn't it a bit like watching football on tape, if you already know the end score?

More like watching the highlights after someone told you the score earlier even though you didn't want to know. :P

Gen.Steiner
11-07-2006, 11:28
Isn't it a bit like watching football on tape, if you already know the end score?

I like the desperation, because every victory is absolutely essential and still might have been phyrric.

No. You refight famous battles, invent new campaigns to fill in gaps in the background (official or your own) and so on and so forth.

If us historical wargamers are happy re-re-refighting Edgehill, Jarama, and Gettysburg, then surely - surely - we can be content to re-re-refight Ichar IV or the First War for Armageddon...

Lord Dante
11-07-2006, 14:29
Isnt the idea of W40k fluff to always speel impending doom on all fronts.

Nids will eat everything
The Orks will form a massive Waaa once and for all and kill everyone
Chaos will take over and Abby will rule the galaxy
The Necrons and the C'tan will do somthing godly
The Tau will make friends with everyone in the galaxy and we will all live happily ever after...err hold on?

But seriously isnt the idea of the 'Imperium' that its always on a tight rope, fighting for survival - and that you as the gamer must carry the Emperors fight to all these races that appose him, whilst selling minis on the side.

For all we know what we fought of the Nids is it, the fleets sent were the overall force of the entire race - or it could be 0.0000000000000000001% of there overall forces and everyone is stuffed.

W40k fluff works in a way that it always seems desperate and I like this struggle, its what makes me interested in the fluff/plot so to speak.

El_Machinae
11-07-2006, 14:45
If us historical wargamers are happy re-re-refighting Edgehill, Jarama, and Gettysburg, then surely - surely - we can be content to re-re-refight Ichar IV or the First War for Armageddon...

The beauty of the 4000 pt. skirmish is that they don't really matter in the 'big picture'. Anything you do with a 2000 pt army shouldn't really matter with regards to a campaign

Radical Inquisitor
11-07-2006, 16:29
The beauty of the 4000 pt. skirmish is that they don't really matter in the 'big picture'. Anything you do with a 2000 pt army shouldn't really matter with regards to a campaign


According to GW a game of 40k only represents a small but vitaly important part of a much larger battle, or a campaing in and of its self.

Radical Inquisitor
11-07-2006, 16:30
The beauty of the 4000 pt. skirmish is that they don't really matter in the 'big picture'. Anything you do with a 2000 pt army shouldn't really matter with regards to a campaign


According to GW a game of 40k only represents a small but vitaly important part of a much larger battle, or a campaing in and of its self.

Shaper Shakra
11-07-2006, 16:46
GW should pull a White Wolf and just start over afterwards. Maybe switch roles around a bit. It would do the old horse some good.

El_Machinae
12-07-2006, 10:16
I can only imagine the moaning now.

They might have been painted into a corner though, we *like* fluff, but the fluff is getting very tough to compensate for.

Invid
12-07-2006, 13:05
Well understand that the Tyranids might not be the real threat. It is plausible that the Tyranids are a lesser organism that is being pressured out of it's habitat by something much... scarier.

If you look at the whole universase as a kind of ecosystem, it may be that there is a threat to the Hive Mind and it is a concious move to get outta dodge... or maybe because there is so much competition for food they are leaving... or maybe because there is NO food they are leaving. There is no proof that sixty million-billion norn queens are on the way to Ultramar now to "set up us the bomb."

May just be the Tyranids FINALLY found a place with enought food sources that they can actually expand. :skull:

Bruen
12-07-2006, 14:12
The current fleets could be all there is. There could be a couple more fleets coming, or even a whole lot of fleets coming.

Going from memory the figures from the 3rd edition Tyranid codex meant that there were something like 100 million hive fleets approaching our galaxy.

Kjell
12-07-2006, 21:24
Going from memory the figures from the 3rd edition Tyranid codex meant that there were something like 100 million hive fleets approaching our galaxy.

I have said codex, actually. I just went and took a quick look and I couldn't find anything on the number of fleets outside of the galaxy. The only mention of "millions" I noticed was in regard to the amount of creatures within a particular Hive Fleet, army and all. I shall have a better look later on, but I haven't spotted such a tidbit before and I have never seen anyone point it out.

As I said, I'll check, but I'm afraid you have the odds against you, so to speak. ;)

Kandarin
12-07-2006, 21:36
The only numbers I've seen (although this is from the website, and not the Codex, which I don't own) was "For every hive fleet we've seen, a dozen more wait outside the galaxy". That's 36 hive fleets, or added to Kraken, Behemoth, and Leviathan, 39 hive fleets. That's really, really bad, but it's not a billion hive fleetz!!!1 either.

Goq Gar
12-07-2006, 21:39
It cant - Unless a powerful and strong alliance is made between the forces of good, there is no way it can prevent itself from spiralling into utter chaos (no pun intended) and unless action is taken immediatley against the necrons, they will overwhelm everything, and all will be lost. Their power as of now is immense, imagine them when they outnumber everything. More necron pyramids than space marines, and more warriors than guardsmen (exaggeration).

The Tau have given numerous opportunities to the Imperium for alliance (but as we all know, the imperium cant stand the sight of anything less than, or indeed more human than them.) Should the Imperium choose to ally with Tau, then I believe the necron threat could be controlled, but as long as there is an all out war between the empire and the imperium, they are weak divided.

The orks, as usual, are spreading, causing chaos wherever they go, and of course, so do Chaos and the dark eldar. And as long as the Eldar seprate themselves from the Imperium and the Tau, then alone they will be crushed. The true underlying threat is, of course, the necrons. If all good (and of course, all evil) could ally, they could defend themselves together and stand a chance. While all sides are alone, I forsee a universe in peril.

(All my opinions, I have no degree in 40k history, and I am no fluff-buff, forgive any misconceptions, or utter, blatant mistakes on my part. And I believe i've defended myself against all fault)

Bruen
12-07-2006, 21:45
OK I'm home now so here are the details:

P39 "A billion times a billion Tyranids stand at the rim of the galaxy..."
P2 "Tyranid hive fleets consist of millions of living craft, each home to billions of creatures"

OK so lets assume that there are 5 million craft in an average fleet and 5 billion creatures on each craft, that gives us around 25x10^18 creatures per fleet.

A billion times a billion is 10^24.

That gives us around 40,000 hive fleets at the edge of our galaxy.

I admit its considerably less than I remembered and the figures are rough but there are a heck of a lot of hive fleets coming considering the damage that 3 have done. And then there is the issue of all the fleets that stayed behing in their home galaxy and those that might have set off in different directions.

Outlaw289
12-07-2006, 21:46
Why would an Imperial-Tau alliance stop the Necrons? From a logistical position, a Tau-Imperial alliance would amount to the same thing as the Imperium raising a few thousand more Guard regiments (in terms of comparitive size and combat ability). It wouldn't be enough to stop the Necrons

edit: Sorry, didn't see your disclaimer

Eduard
12-07-2006, 21:56
Well say that the Necrons or Nids would wipe out humanity. Wouldn't it mean that the chaos gods would simply vanish? Since there would be no one left to worship them.

Bruen
12-07-2006, 22:31
Well say that the Necrons or Nids would wipe out humanity. Wouldn't it mean that the chaos gods would simply vanish? Since there would be no one left to worship them.

IMHO the chaos gods always have been a bit pathetic anyway compared to the Necron gods in particular.

Kjell
12-07-2006, 22:44
OK I'm home now so here are the details:

P39 "A billion times a billion Tyranids stand at the rim of the galaxy..."
P2 "Tyranid hive fleets consist of millions of living craft, each home to billions of creatures"

OK so lets assume that there are 5 million craft in an average fleet and 5 billion creatures on each craft, that gives us around 25x10^18 creatures per fleet.

A billion times a billion is 10^24.

That gives us around 40,000 hive fleets at the edge of our galaxy.

It doesn't state when this is supposed to take place. Which "now" is it? The "now" when the Tyranids first appeared in force, when they were in fact just at the rim? The current "now" of the game, just after the Cadian Gate was (more or less) breached?

Also, the numbers used are somewhat... round. They're big, vague, scary. Besides, merely assuming that the average fleet has so-and-so many ships with so-and-so many Tyranids on them is honestly not the strongest argument.

Ardathair
13-07-2006, 00:13
Posted by Eduard:
Well say that the Necrons or Nids would wipe out humanity. Wouldn't it mean that the chaos gods would simply vanish? Since there would be no one left to worship them.

Just whiping out humans would not stop them. Whiping out all races other than Necrons, Tyranids, and Orks would stop them growing. The first two don't have souls to feed chaos as far as I know, and the orks' souls go to Mork and Gork. They would not just vanish but would not be able to affect the matterial world, maybe the samething depending on your POV.

With reguard to Tyranids, the current fleets have been incorperating this galaxies DNA into themselves, what happens when the other hive fleets arrive and don't recognize the previous ones as their own kind? Tyranid civil war?

Loki
13-07-2006, 01:01
Huh. That WOULD be interesting. Then you'd have two kinds of Tyranids. :D
Maybe go as far as a campaign where the Emperor returns and a new civil war bigger than the Horus Heresy arises while the new Tyranids fight the ones coming from the other galaxy, causing even MORE anarchy.

Gen.Steiner
13-07-2006, 10:34
...causing even MORE anarchy.

*ahem*

You mean chaos and disorder, I assume. If anarchy broke out in the 40Kiverse, it'd suddenly get peaceful.

As for the Hive Fleets, if they ever do show up (they may have died en route), the galaxy is DOOMED.

But as I said, it makes no difference as whoever 'wins' will be unable to escape the end of the universe itself. Entropy wins... everyone else loses.

malisteen
13-07-2006, 20:56
All of the numbers about how many Tyranids are outside the galaxy are quotes from known races in the galaxy (eldar, imperials, etc.) who have no way of knowing how extensive the tyranid threat is.

The imperial quotes all have alterior motives (Kryptman loves to talk up his personal pet goblins, that other imperial guy needed resources), and the eldar, well, I have to imagine they're prone to hyperbole, as well as apocalyptic flights of fancy.

Bruen
13-07-2006, 21:36
Actually both the quotes that I gave from the old codex are 3rd party quotes rather than being from any particular perspective.

Gen.Steiner
13-07-2006, 22:40
So it goes like this - correct me if I'm wrong.

1) Tyranids arrive en masse.
2) Futile and piecemeal defences of the organic races are smashed asunder and absorbed.
3) The Necrons attack the Tyranids.
4) Inconclusive stalemate - the Necrons can't harvest the 'nids AFAIK, and the 'nids can't absorb the Necrons.
5) Heat Death of Universe/Big Crunch/etc
6) The End/The Beginning

Getz
13-07-2006, 23:16
People should be wary of believing the "Billion Billion" quotes that GW is want to carelessy mention - there are, after all, only a finite number of atoms in the universe and the simply Astronomical numbers you get when you multiply up all off those Billions and Trillions that GW casually throws into the fluff will probably exceed that number...

Crazy Tom
13-07-2006, 23:27
Technically, nothing exists... if there's a finite number of atoms divded by an infinite amount of space, you get sweet flip all. Gotta love Douglas Adams. ;)

As for the whole entropy thing, the warp provides a route to escape that... power generated by human emotion? That's an infinite power source. If it can be harness, which it can for many things, it can stop or even reverse the heat death.

Lord Dante
14-07-2006, 01:11
Quick question - As the Nid fleets went through the ultramar sector, knocking out the odd chapter and Eldar world etc... How come the Tau didnt get taken outside the galaxy for a right royal spanking!

And what happened to Nid Magus and Patriarchs eh? 2nd.Ed!!!

Ardathair
14-07-2006, 01:39
Posted by Lord Dante:
Quick question - As the Nid fleets went through the ultramar sector, knocking out the odd chapter and Eldar world etc... How come the Tau didnt get taken outside the galaxy for a right royal spanking!

Because GW just introduced the Tau. Whiping them out just after introducing them would mean they waste alot of money designing a race and all its models just to drop them, probably wouldn't mind all the gamers who bought into Tau and have them die off. Not much background reason available though which is what I think you were asking for.


And what happened to Nid Magus and Patriarchs eh? 2nd.Ed!!!

They were part of the Genesteeler cults not mainstream Tyranids. If GW redoes the Genesteeler cult you will most likely see a return of those two characters.

El_Machinae
14-07-2006, 10:38
People should be wary of believing the "Billion Billion" quotes that GW is want to carelessy mention - there are, after all, only a finite number of atoms in the universe and the simply Astronomical numbers you get when you multiply up all off those Billions and Trillions that GW casually throws into the fluff will probably exceed that number...

But it's not too unreasonable when talking about galaxies. And the 'nids came from a different galaxy.

There are roughly 6 billion humans on Earth. There are roughly 200 billion stars in our galaxy.

If we colonise 0.5% of the stars to 20% of Earth's capacity, we suddenly have a billion-billion people in our galaxy.

With advancing technology, allofasudden a lot more of Sol is habitable, and we could easily have 100 billion humans within our solar system. And then roughly half the galaxy would be habitable, too. That's 100 billion times 100 billion; and that number is very near to the mythical 'bajillion'; meaning, I could show you the zeros, but our minds can't comprehend it.

And this would be barely tapping the biomass in each solar system; leaving tons of mass available for wealth-conversion (i.e., houses, chairs, laptops, sculptures, etc.)

There are roughly 20 stars in our galaxy for each man, woman, and child living on the planet today. We just need to reach out and claim them.

Getz
14-07-2006, 12:15
Problem is, GW are so free with the billions you very soon start getting Trillions, and then Trillion Trillions....

My point wasn't meant to be taken literally, but the fact is GW treats Trillions in the same way the US treasury does - this kind of abstract number that's just very big, but a trillion is a billion billion, and there have only been about 125 million billion seconds since the universe was created... Or to put it another way the Universe will need to last over a thousand times longer than it already has before it see in it's trillianth second... :rolleyes:

That's how big trillions are...

Kriegsherr
14-07-2006, 12:26
Heat death is over-rated (I often am confronted with the concept of Heat Death when discussing life extension - curing aging, it seems, isn't viable because billions of years from now there will be no heat left anyway); there are theories about creating new universes and new big bangs to move into.

woho... and their right! Were doomed anyway, so why live any day longer... ;)




Isn't it a bit like watching football on tape, if you already know the end score?

I like the desperation, because every victory is absolutely essential and still might have been phyrric.

Well, my answer to that is: Ignore the big scale events! Just scale your story down to that one planet or system you are fighting over, let even planets and systems nearby be surrounded by a shroud of mystery as warp travels and communication isn't accurate as modern communication or travel anyway.

If you base your story on a smaller scale, you won't have this "videotape" feeling as the bigger event that might happen later maybe even wont affect this one single planet.

I rather have some nice examples of small scale stories like the Medusa V one than big events who could screw an army or generally don't work as well as smaller bg events.

Sureshot05
14-07-2006, 12:31
historical refights are beginning to occur in 40K. Look at the Badab weekend or the Battle for Macragge box set.

They are certainly starting to realise that there is a market for these sort of battles.

Hell, thats why i picked up the battle for macragge box set (that and its a good way to teach younger players).

El_Machinae
14-07-2006, 13:12
but a trillion is a billion billion

I don't think we're using the same number system. To be clear, there are 200 x 10^9 (or 200,000,000,000) stars in the galaxy. That might be your milliard, but scientists mean that when they use the term 'billion'.

Bruen
14-07-2006, 14:25
It doesn't state when this is supposed to take place.

Since the writing is in the present tense I would assume that it was the state of the 40k timeline when the old Tyranid codex was released.

I don't know what the in-game date would have been then but its a long time before the events of the EOT campaign. The old Tyranid codex was old so it could have been as far back as Armageddon. I can't check right now because I am at work.


Also, the numbers used are somewhat... round. They're big, vague, scary.

Sure but they are what we have to work with and besides they are enough to give a ballpark figure. There are certainly a lot, at least thousands, of hive fleets still on the way.


Besides, merely assuming that the average fleet has so-and-so many ships with so-and-so many Tyranids on them is honestly not the strongest argument.

Well for there to be "millions" there has to be between 2 and 10 million so I think that 5 is a reasonable compromise. Any less than 2 million and they just would have said a million and any more than 10 million and they would have said 10s of millions.

Even with the worst case of 10 million and 10 billion there are 10000 fleets coming.

Getz
14-07-2006, 14:38
I don't think we're using the same number system. To be clear, there are 200 x 10^9 (or 200,000,000,000) stars in the galaxy. That might be your milliard, but scientists mean that when they use the term 'billion'.

well, speaking as a scientist (or at least, an ex-scientist) a billion is a million million ie. 1,000,000,000,000 or 1 x 10^12

I understand the Americans don't agree with the rest of the world on this - failing to grasp the concept of a thousand million - but it doen't make them right. ;)

This is why scientist use SI notation for anything of a million...:eyebrows:

El_Machinae
14-07-2006, 17:26
Um, the UK budget is reported in the 10^9 type of billion. When the earth is said to be 4.5 bya, they're using the 10^9 billion. When astronomers report that there are 200 billion stars in our galaxy, they're using the 10^9 billion.

Are you saying that textbooks in the UK state that there are 200 milliard stars in our galaxy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4117861.stm), and that the newspapers state that your government has an annual budget of just over one billion pounds (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3304339.stm)?

(PS: I'm not trying to fight, I just thought the numbers had been standardized culturally. And I don't think any system refers to a trillion as a billion*billion. I edited in links, not to be a jerk, but to show that the BBC seems to use the billion I refer to (or else you guys are MUCH richer (and in the red) than we thought)

Kjell
14-07-2006, 17:57
I believe it goes like this:

Million (six zeroes)
Milliard (nine zeroes)
Billion (twelve zeroes)
Billiard (fifteen zeroes)

And so on. Thing is, though, that the every-day English word for "milliard" is actually "billion".

I'm just roughly translating from what we say in Sweden, anyway...

Getz
14-07-2006, 18:16
I believe it goes like this:

Million (six zeroes)
Milliard (nine zeroes)
Billion (twelve zeroes)
Billiard (fifteen zeroes)

And so on. Thing is, though, that the every-day English word for "milliard" is actually "billion".

I'm just roughly translating from what we say in Sweden, anyway...


In England a billion is a million million, I belive it is the Americans who call Milliards Billions...

In either instance, it's not worth making a fuss over. The pointof the fact is tha GW inadvertently inflate things to astromical levels which are absolutely impossible

El_Machinae
15-07-2006, 00:12
I agree that they use a grandiose scale; which is probably one reason for my affection for them.

I mean, it's not all sci-fi where billions of people die each year for no good reason other that to erode the status quo.

Edit: Oh, and to avoid confusion, I'm not an American, if there was a thought that I was.

Shaper Shakra
15-07-2006, 01:06
I understand the Americans don't agree with the rest of the world on this - failing to grasp the concept of a thousand million - but it doen't make them right. ;)

Yeah well you've got bad teeth and ya talk funny!


OT: I think that we are all forgeting the ever present threat of the Zoats. As we speak they are gathering their immense hordes in preperation for the final assault on humanity. God help us if they ally themselves with the squat legions....

EDIT: I hate bad spelling.

Kymar
15-07-2006, 01:38
Though I'd love to continue the billion/billard debate, the real point is that they mean alot. So much that a single person can't comprehend it. Anything over about a thousand is hard to imagine, and at a million thing will blend together. Take money for instance, you can picture a dollar, or a hundred dollars, but with a thousand dollars you probably think of a pile of bills. At a million dollars you probably think of a sack or briefcase of money, where each bill is not distinct anymore. At 1,000 million dollars (what most people call a billion) its just impossibly large and doesn't actually mean anything practical. Its just a heck or a lot.

Shaper Shakra
15-07-2006, 01:56
The true question is if the tyranids can beat the orks (yes I know there was a disscusion on this elsewhere). My votes for Orks. *Pictures an entire fleet of biovores :eek:*

Crazy Tom
15-07-2006, 11:41
Tyranids will pwn the orcs. Because the 'nids will absorb the ork DNA and get bigger and nastier - they're already on equal terms. Just look at Codex; Tyranids - Kryptman diverted a Hive fleet into orc held space, resulting in some calamitous battles... but later, large and more powerful tryanid forms were glimpsed - as a result of all the orc DNA being harvested.

El_Machinae
15-07-2006, 14:27
As well, 'nids leave a scorched earth behind. So once they claim a territory, and leave it, there's nowhere for the orks to root. As well, I find that 'nids make more complete use of the biomass available.

i.e., a planet can deliver more 'nids after it's been colonised than it could deliver orks.

Shaper Shakra
15-07-2006, 14:53
But orks have technology and are generally stronger than the 'nids front line troops. Burnas. Yum.

Chaos Lord Primus
15-07-2006, 15:59
In Canada, the metric system works beautifully. Observe.

1 million=1,000,000=10^6

1 billion=1,000,000,000=10^9

1 trillion=1,000,000,000,000=10^12

And so forth. Once you reach a thousand whatevers, you jump to the next category.

Onto Orks vs. Nids. I wub Orks, I really do. But they lose.

Ork Technology is no better than Tyranid Biology. Tyranids have at least equal numbers, faster reproduction and salt the earth when they leave.

Thus, Tyranids can take back an Ork controlled planet, whereas a Tyranid controlled planet is a write-off.

Before it comes up, I play neither Ork nor Nid, so I'm not crippled by a home team bias.

GodHead
17-07-2006, 20:33
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales

Bruen
17-07-2006, 20:55
Using the short scale we have another 40 hive fleets standing at the edge of our galaxy. Reckon the Imperium can handle that?

Lord Dante
18-07-2006, 12:11
A googol can be written in conventional notation, as follows:

1 googol = 10100 =
\scriptscriptstyle 10\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,0 00\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,0 00\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,000\,0 00\,000\,000\,000

GW - dont start...

El_Machinae
18-07-2006, 12:49
Using the short scale we have another 40 hive fleets standing at the edge of our galaxy. Reckon the Imperium can handle that?

Depending on whether we've seen the full extent of the current hive fleets.

But something is fishy about your math there. Unless we're using different quotes


P39 "A billion times a billion Tyranids stand at the rim of the galaxy..."
P2 "Tyranid hive fleets consist of millions of living craft, each home to billions of creatures"

There are a billion*billion 'nids.
Each fleet is million*billion 'nids

So, there should be something on the scale of a thousand fleets. Considering each fleet seems to be worth a SM chapter in power (discounting evolution, which is strongly on the 'nids side) the Imperium seems to have an advantage; because there's more than a million billion 'nids in a fleet, due to the pluralisation.

Of course, unless it's hyperbole.

Lord Dante
18-07-2006, 14:43
But how many nids were in hive fleet B for example - I would have thought millions of Nids were killed...

Also its nut just the Imperium who will fight them - the Eldar, the Tau, the Orks etc... if they land on these worlds its not like these other races will sit by and let the Nids eat them.

Bruen
18-07-2006, 15:47
So, there should be something on the scale of a thousand fleets.

I used the same math as I did in my origional calculation, 5 million craft in an average fleet and 5 billion creatures on each craft.

El_Machinae
18-07-2006, 17:46
Huh, you're very right. Funny how the numbers jump around when you're squaring them, no? A simple 25-fold increase (and entirely reasonable given the descriptions) drops my estimates vastly.

So, 40 Hive Fleets is a cake-walk for Imperium. Barring evolution.

Bruen
18-07-2006, 18:08
I wouldn't call it a cake walk given how much damage 3 have done.

Tanith Ghost
18-07-2006, 18:29
A billion times a billion tyranids. It doesn't say 'hive fleets'.
And as people have saud, it's just as likely Leviathan was it, and the bugs are on their last legs.

Bruen
18-07-2006, 19:07
A billion times a billion tyranids. It doesn't say 'hive fleets'.

Did you read what I posted or is this just a random comment?

Tanith Ghost
18-07-2006, 19:10
I did. And I disagree with your assesment. A claim 'There might be lots more hive fleets' means zip to me. You might as well claim the 'old ones' count for something.

Bruen
18-07-2006, 19:35
A claim 'There might be lots more hive fleets' means zip to me.

So you disagree with what is written in a published codex. In that case what do you base your fluff on if not the GW official version?

The number of hive fleets is simply based on what is printed in the old Tyranid codex and some simple math. Its either around 40 more or 40,000 more depending on which number system you use.

Tanith Ghost
18-07-2006, 22:48
So you disagree with what is written in a published codex. In that case what do you base your fluff on if not the GW official version?

The number of hive fleets is simply based on what is printed in the old Tyranid codex and some simple math. Its either around 40 more or 40,000 more depending on which number system you use.

I disagree with your claim that this is at all acurate.
The old bug books says nothing about more hive fleets.

Bruen
18-07-2006, 22:50
I have quoted the page numbers, perhaps you could look them up.

The quotes are from the previous Tyranid codex published in 2001, ISBN 1-84154-013-7
GW product code is 60030106001

Tanith Ghost
18-07-2006, 23:02
Your quotes say 'tyranids'. As is all types of tyranids. Not hivefleets.
You should get you facts right.

Bruen
18-07-2006, 23:09
My quotes say the following:

P39 "A billion times a billion Tyranids stand at the rim of the galaxy..."
P2 "Tyranid hive fleets consist of millions of living craft, each home to billions of creatures"

The math then renders this into roughly 40 or 40,000 more hive fleets depending on which number system you use.

Which part of this are you disagreeing with?

Lord Dante
19-07-2006, 00:30
billions of creatures could refer to the smallest Nids that are not even used for combat tho - out of the combat effective nids, the numbers could be alot smaller.

Minister
19-07-2006, 00:59
Indeed it would be just as viable to number the bacterial bioconstructs amongst those, so the system is flawwed.

That, and the Imperium's pulling as many WAGs as we are.

Zardoz
19-07-2006, 01:04
MillionS could be 2 could be 999. So there could be any number of hive fleets with each ship home to 2 to 999 billion 'Nids.

My personal guestimate is there'd be about 6 to 10 hive fleets descending on the Milkyway galaxy. They'd eat most of it and spawn new hive fleets that would then set off in various directions to other galaxies.

The nids use vanguards of lictors, stealers and other organisms to pave the way for the fleet. The fleet then eats everything it finds once it shows. It makes no sense for a LARGER fleet to show up after the 'smaller' ones...to find everything already eaten.
It also makes no sense for hive fleets to compete amongst each other for food.



Of course, the numbers quoted in fluff is often a metaphore for 'a fricking LOT'...GW does kind of go for the exageration to stress the magnitude of things.

Also, unless those that follow are better than the ones encountered or can adapt to what the previous fleets have encountered, it could be a case of defeat in detail by humanity or other galatic races.

El_Machinae
19-07-2006, 01:17
I wouldn't call it a cake walk given how much damage 3 have done.

I agree that they've done quite a bit of damage, but they have not damaged 1/40th of the Imperium, if you know what I mean, more like 0.3%. Basically, I figure each fleet has destroyed one SM chapter's worth of resources for the Imperium (and an equivalent in other things; worlds, IG, etc.).

One SM chapter is only one of a thousand. Not so bad.

Bruen
19-07-2006, 07:10
I agree that they've done quite a bit of damage, but they have not damaged 1/40th of the Imperium, if you know what I mean, more like 0.3%.

I see what you are getting at but that is what they have destroyed so far. All three of the existing hive fleets are still significant threats.

As for the "how many million is millions" question, yes thats the real weak point but I have already stated my reasoning behind assuming 5 million.

Tanith Ghost
19-07-2006, 07:42
I see what you are getting at but that is what they have destroyed so far. All three of the existing hive fleets are still significant threats.


One still is. Leviathan still has enough splinters to cause a problem.

Behemoth was crushed utterly at Macragge.
Kraken was broken at Ichar IV and has since been reduced greatly.
Kraken's remains have been hounded by the Ordo xenos kill teams to the point that they are no longer the hunters, but the prey.

El_Machinae
19-07-2006, 11:19
Oh, I'm not doubting that they're local problems. Any system attacked by the 'nids is fragged, to be sure. But it's incidental in an Imperium of a million worlds. An analogy would be the murder rate in my city of a million. A few murders each year (representing the loss of a world to the 'nids) is sad, but doesn't truely hurt the city as a whole.

However, since the 'nids are exponential reproducers, consuming a biosphere should add greatly to their numbers. While they don't add experience, numbers still helps. (I'm of the opinion that 'nids have 'battle experience' and that killing synapse creatures/hive ships permanently destroys this experience, thus reduce their ability by a small amount - an analogy would be that killing some of your neurons reduces your ability as a whole (even though neurons, too, have redundancy just not complete redundancy)

Lord Dante
19-07-2006, 13:18
As the new Nid fleets could effect the entire galaxy it wont just be the Imperium fighting - it will be ever race...

Bruen
19-07-2006, 13:36
It already is every race, I am hard pushed to think of any race that does not currently face a threat from the Tyranids apart from perhaps the Necrons and Dark Eldar.

Lord Dante
19-07-2006, 13:48
What I mean is there is alot of talk about the Imperium facing this threat of the Nids but it the Nids wont just attack the Imperium they will be attacking everything - to be honest if you added up ever races army I think they would probablyoutnumber the nids, of course bringing all your arms to bare is always a problem...

I propose a board game where we can simulate this battle, I call it Warhammer 40k and we have these lil minis etc... oh hold on

Bruen
19-07-2006, 15:57
What I mean is there is alot of talk about the Imperium facing this threat of the Nids

IMHO thats just an effect of the whole 40k universe revolving around the Imperium. I know that the Tau have had a lot of trouble with the Tyranids, as have Orks and Eldar.


I propose a board game where we can simulate this battle, I call it Warhammer 40k and we have these lil minis etc... oh hold on

:)

Lord Dante
20-07-2006, 09:03
I never understood how the Tau didnt get wiped out - did warp storms protect then perhaps?

Bruen
20-07-2006, 09:11
In my experience the Tau are totally brutal when playing against Tyranids so perhaps thats an explanation. Alternativly the gods of marketing and product development were protecting them.

Lord Dante
20-07-2006, 09:20
Yeah I can imagine that Tua have almost the perfect shooting skills to rip the Nids apart - but in the fluff im not sure if its the same... The tau empire is located in the Ultramar sector of space, Hive fleet Kraken managed to wipe out a few chapters an ELdar craftowrld etc... And were only stopped when the Ultramarines pulled thier finger out. Im surprised the Tau could defend against this so I think maybe they were still protected by the warp?

Gen.Steiner
20-07-2006, 10:22
More likely that the Tyranids had good taste, and didn't want to get food poisoning from eating the disgusting little blighters.

How is this thread still going? :confused:

Either the Tyranids will eat everything, or they won't. Either way, it doesn't bloody matter because eventually everything in the universe will be destroyed by the end of existence.

El_Machinae
20-07-2006, 11:10
There's little evidence to believe that the end of existence is guaranteed.

Gen.Steiner
20-07-2006, 11:26
Entropy.

'nuff said. At some point, all the stars will burn out, and then we're reet fooked lad, that's if any of us HomSap are still grunting about the place. We're all doooomed in the (very) long run.

Lord Dante
20-07-2006, 11:28
There's little evidence to believe that the end of existence is guaranteed.


Stars do die - and alot of them deff turn into Blackholes resulting in one giant big hole that is the universe.

If thats not the end of existance what is? a total Gravity collapse is highly probable.

El_Machinae
20-07-2006, 13:58
Can you find a single modern source that espouses the "Big Crunch" model?

I thought Heat Death was in vogue, and it's highly over-rated.

Lord Dante
20-07-2006, 14:19
Im no super scientist but i like the idea of the big crunch - I think its fair to assume that in time after all the stars have died or turned in to black holes evrything will be crush into a super black hole that um eats itself or somthing... get lost about then...

Gen.Steiner
20-07-2006, 15:59
I have no idea how it'll happen, but given that (almost) everything is subject to entropy, it's safe to assume that at some point existence as we know it will end. The last star will die eventually.

The details can be left to astrophysicists and others on the bleeding edge of science, tbh.

Basically, I think this is a pretty pointless thread...

Crazy Tom
20-07-2006, 21:30
If somebody uses the warp to power some big heaters then they can stop Entropy in the Wh40K universe. However, the warp doesn't exist in the real world, so we're screwed in a couple of million, billion years. Makes me wonder why anyone bothers to have kids. ;)

Totem
21-07-2006, 00:44
If somebody uses the warp to power some big heaters then they can stop Entropy in the Wh40K universe. However, the warp doesn't exist in the real world, so we're screwed in a couple of million, billion years. Makes me wonder why anyone bothers to have kids. ;)

For food. Duh.

Gen.Steiner
21-07-2006, 00:51
Makes me wonder why anyone bothers to have kids. ;)

Temporary survival of the species, and the making 'em bit is fun...

El_Machinae
21-07-2006, 01:15
Like I said, Heat Death is over-rated as a theory. It assumes that a sentient species won't find new sources of Entropy to tap, which seems unlikely to me (especially considering the time scales)

Gen.Steiner
21-07-2006, 01:52
Wait, how can you 'tap' entropy? Entropy is just the winding down of everything, the slow decay of matter and energy into other forms of matter and energy (which, incidentally, means we won't be able to survive after a certain point).

Also, um, heat death may be discredited (although I'm not so sure about that) but there's always the Big Crunch theory, or any of the others.

My point is that in the long run, even the Tyranids will be dead, so this thread may as well ask: "How can we possibly continue as is?" - it's the same answer really.

Toxxys
21-07-2006, 04:21
I don't feel like joining the astronomical part of this discussion as it is off-topic... kinda. Plus it's too interesting and I'll say too much.


Regardless... who's to say that the tyranids didn't just finish conquering their home galaxy and due to the enormous amount of growth they've experienced, they've branched out to different galaxies and are starting to munch there as well?

And don't tyranids avoid dead tomb worlds because they sense no life from there? I don't see tyranids and necrons as being very good enemies (although necrons hate all life and nids are completely living) unless tyranids invade a world where nectrons are waking up... and tyranids are interfering with the necron invasion. Even then, the tyranids may end up invading the planets and 'killing' the necrons, but that just teleports them to a tomb world where they can strike the tyranids back from. If anything, a larger-scale tryranid invasion would do necrons a big favor... all life in the galaxy would be gone.

This entire discussion brings up interesting questions... Eldar have helped the Imperium, Tau would help the Imperium... I think when it comes down to it the Orks wouldn't want to lose their favorite enemies, they probably don't have as much fun fighting tyranids (or necrons for that matter), so I think if it came down to an ultimate battle of Tyranids vs. Imperium, Orks would help. As far as chaos goes... I'm not really sure, they would probably use the opportunity to attack Imperial worlds and convert new followers/gain favor for themselves. A combined Ork and Imperium force (with Eldar and Tau support) would demolish a bunch of Tyranids. The largest problem would be Chaos, followed by Dark Eldar, followed by the threat of a full scale Necron awakening.

This also brings up further points... what if the Imperium had some great schisms? There are tons of conspiracy theories out there. If the Imperium of man is the second largest 'civilization' in the galaxy (after the orks), this allows for a lot variety. I've thought about it... if the Imperium collapses in a way, there would be left-over loyalists, more chaos worshipping traitors, lots would join the tau empire (they would step up their propaganda if the Imperium collapsed). Some marine chapters would go chaos, while others would remain purist, maybe some might even join the tau (rare, but maybe). The Iron Hands (plus successors) as well as a huge chunk of the Mechanicus would possibly go all necron if that conspiracy is true... perhaps giving the necrons new toys and vice-versa.

The possibilities would be quite interesting (especially in terms of gameplay)... this does however unballance the threat levels of the galaxy...

More thinking to come...

El_Machinae
21-07-2006, 11:21
Wait, how can you 'tap' entropy? Entropy is just the winding down of everything, the slow decay of matter and energy into other forms of matter and energy (which, incidentally, means we won't be able to survive after a certain point).


Ah, sorry.

The Sun is currently undergoing entropy, releasing energy into the universe. The Earth is inbetween plants captured the sun's energy (a result of the sun's entropy) and 'tap' it to decrease entropy locally.

So, you need to find new sources of decay that radiate energy and then get in the way. We do this from everything from campfires to waterfalls - something is losing energy and we interpose ourselves to benefit.

Now, if you ascribe to the Big Bang model, there are a host of theories about how to replicate the event (i.e., humans can create a new universe separate from ours). There's a host of energy in a Big Bang (clearly), so we just need to create new ones and figure out how to tap that energy.

'Course, this seems nigh impossible, but we have billions of years to figure it out. That's a hell of a lot of time, all things considered. It's certainly too early to think it's impossible.

mulchie
21-07-2006, 13:29
I think this tread should have a name change, some thing like this.

how can this thread possibly continue as it is?

but seriously i think we should get over the entropy stuff and the nid stuff.
The 40K universe will continue as it alsways has...The nids will remain a far off but all to real threat,

necrons will increase their raiding but it won't destroy the imperium,

the tau will continue to expand and will have many merry fights with the imps,

the orcs will be orcs (nuff said)

Eldar will keep interfering with the other races.

Imps will continue to defend and maybe push back and take full control of the cadian gate again.

Add chaos will continue to fight everyone, gaining and losing influence and dominace.

the rest will remain a pain in the imps side but nothing to much that will cause worry.

jeez...i need sleep

mulchie

Toxxys
21-07-2006, 14:45
the orcs will be orcs (nuff said)

Not quite enough... since I believe you meant to say that Orcs will be (and actually are) Orks (in 40k).

Much different biology and a completely different name. So different.

Crazy Tom
21-07-2006, 23:24
Technically they're the krorks, as created by the Old Ones... maybe with the rise of the Necrons they'll somehow remember their true purpose... Or maybe not.

El_Machinae
22-07-2006, 00:10
That's just a rumor! The name similarities are co-incidence!

darknar
22-07-2006, 20:02
maby the enslavers return in full force, stopping the necrons, as before(theory)

Crazy Tom
22-07-2006, 21:05
Coincidence? Green skin? Plus all the other similarities which I can't be bothered to go and research right now? :p

Yeah, I know it's merely idle conjecture. But allowing for linguistic drift, phsycial appearance and the fact that the (kr)Orks can use the warp at a basic level (to make them more effective against the Ctan, to whom the warp is anathema) it is a very strong theory - especially since it's written on wikipedia :D. I read Codex Necrons and read the description and immediately thought of the Orks. Their very manner of reproduction serves to make up for the horrendous losses they'd take against the Necrons. And unless I'm very much mistaken, I though there were significant echelons of their society that were mysteriously absent... signs of a war? The more powerful an (kr)Ork variant was, the more likely it would come to the attention of the Ctan... Should I make this a new thread or has it already been discussed to death?

mulchie
22-07-2006, 23:28
um...the hell are the krorks? I never heard of this before...

and i realised that i spelt orks in the fantasy way. I just couldn't be bothered to edit the post.

El_Machinae
23-07-2006, 18:12
I actually agree that they're orks. In fact, they would be a really useful weapon, mainly because any decent sized invasion is basically salting the earth.

The spores drift around any planet that the Necrons own, and then eventually orks hassle them. And, with millenia-long wars, the level of hassling is important (it leads to diverted resources, destruction of critical information records, etc.).

Similarily, Armaggedon is screwed (in the long-term view) by the landings of orks that have occurred.