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Herkamer63
14-04-2016, 16:40
I've been really wanting to do this thread for awhile, but I wanted to make sure I approached it right. Chaos rumors and supplements have been going around for awhile, and Chaos players are talking again (more than usual). As much as I would like to offer my opinions on this, I'm not going to do that in this thread, yet, because of how touchy a subject this is. So these questions are for Chaos players, CSM or Daemons. I'll break them down into category questions, then ask a few follow ups, and finally explain the answers. So without further ado, here we go.

Should Chaos armies be under a Codex: Chaos banner (think Adeptus Astartes)?
a. Should the current CSM codex be a Legion/Renegade book?
b. Should they do more Daemonkin books?
c. Do you think a Traitor Guard codex should be created

How do you improve Chaos?
a. What rules need changed?
b. Should pts be altered?
c. What wargear needs to be updated?
d. What rules need added?

We'll start here, then after awhile I'll have more. I'll find a font or symbol to let you know it's me. Not everyone reads usernames. So, what are some answers?

Cybtroll
14-04-2016, 16:56
Chaos will benefit from a single codex, but with actual army composition it's not necessary. Allies work well.
a) not necessarily
b) only if supported by proper model
c) no, a simple option to take classic imperial guard with some limitations and a few perks (like Marks on veteran or command squad) may do the trick.

On the other questions, I'll improve chaos by a different army composition.
a) troop selection. Any Lord/HQ gives 1-4 unit selection. No fast attack, heavy support... no distinction.
b) dunno.
c) none
d) rules are fine... basically. More flexibility in army selection and the opportunity to use traitor guardsmen may be enought.

(I have a small army of undivided chaos SM - lead by cypher).

skorczeny
14-04-2016, 17:09
To answer the first part:

a. The CSM codex should be a LEGION book first and foremost. As the evil villain to space marines, representing CSMs primarily as freedom fighters/renegades/pirates is not appropriate.

b. and c.: I'm not convinced that it would be impossible to represent cults and traitors appropriately in the main CSM codex. I'm not even sure it's appropriate to split demons from the main codex. Second edition 40k had sub-lists for demon worlds and chaos cults all under one book. If worked there, and I'm sure it could be improved upon without splitting up the book.

I won't get into rules re: improving chaos so as to avoid derailing this thread -- because this part of the topic is edition specific.

Latro_
14-04-2016, 17:37
They need a codex which has:
A 'decent' decurion style formation with plenty of other formations
An adjustment to units to make them viable over others e.g. why take raptors when bikes are just a no-brainer
A reason to actually take vanilla chaos space marines (kinda fits into the above but is worthy of not on its own)
Chapter traits for legions like space marines... its not too much to ask even if its just the main chaos gods.. it wont take much effort. GW have this notion in their head that chaos is this pirate renegade thing whereas any player you ever speak to ever who like chaos has normally a legion they like the background of from black library or if they're old enough from 2ed-3ed.

It miht sound like 'oh you want codex space marines++ with ye mauler fiends and daemon princes... but the last time i checked chaos dont have drop pods, centurions, grav, attack bikes, land speeders, scouts, grave fullstop etc etc etc.

Orthodox
14-04-2016, 18:15
There is one thing that makes everything else irrelevant, and it is in the first four posts. No other suggestion, nothing about renegades or legions or traits or dinobots means anything at all without this one thing.

A reason to actually take vanilla chaos space marines (kinda fits into the above but is worthy of not on its own)

It is this. It's also that loyalists need a reason to take vanilla loyalist marines and Eldar need a reason to take vanilla guardians or dire avengers, except more so for chaos. Basic infantry is just garbage and chaos Marines are just all about being infantry and killing basic infantry.


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Herkamer63
14-04-2016, 19:47
How much flexibility should there be?
a. Should there be grav weapons or something else entirely?
b. Give examples of what special rules, per legion/renegade chapter, should have.
c. Would more supplements for legions help?
d. Do you want a decurion detachment similar to Codex: SM? If not, what do you want to see?
e. What options do you want to see changed in the unit selection?

The squares at the bottom are me, but if you want me to change it, let me know. This is so you know it's from me
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A.T.
14-04-2016, 19:52
Should Chaos armies be under a Codex: Chaos banner (think Adeptus Astartes)?
a. Should the current CSM codex be a Legion/Renegade book?
b. Should they do more Daemonkin books?
c. Do you think a Traitor Guard codex should be createdNot a current CSM player, but my 2 pence -
a) Warband/legion.
Renegades (as in recently fallen) are best represented with a dataslate book for codex:space marines with a few relics like daemon weapons and banners to various gods and alternate FoCs with rules to represent being cut off from the Imperial supply line and their new dedication to the chaos gods. This should include a smaller ally-style FoC with no HQ requirement to allow renegade forces to be easily integrated into warbands as fodder for the long war.
-this should do something to resolve the endless "we want x with spikes on" complaints.

b) Seems like a good way to spread out and introduce model releases. Anything but more khorne.

c) No, but guard should have rules for alliances with chaos and genestealer forces. The forgeworld renegade list is there for full on heretics.



How do you improve Chaos?With the 'new/vanilla' forces covered by the renegades the full CSM book is free to deal with the veterans - stats up, cost up. No more cheap units - terminators to compare to grey knight paladins, perhaps the option to pile skills and mutations onto characters and units at escalating prices, even mundane vehicles warped and possessed as a matter of course.

Loyalists get the grey knights and wolves/BA/DA/sororitas, chaos get the CSM veterans and daemons - and both sides essentially share the vanilla marine and guard books as a source of allies.

totgeboren
14-04-2016, 20:11
Should Chaos armies be under a Codex: Chaos banner (think Adeptus Astartes)?
a. Should the current CSM codex be a Legion/Renegade book?
b. Should they do more Daemonkin books?
c. Do you think a Traitor Guard codex should be created

a. I think it should focus on the forces the old legions have evolved into. If you want to play legions, there is the 30k legion army lists. If you want to play modern marines, you can just go with the SM codex and have a Malefic Librarian or something. It makes no sense at all to focus on recent renegades such as Crimson Slaughter, simply because the gear is all wrong. Where did they find all these power mauls, axes and combi-weapons for their Termies? Where did they put all their grav-weapons, plasma cannons and multimeltas, Land Speeders and variant Land Raiders? It's simply not feasible that the Crusader is more technologically advanced than the basic Land Raider. Bolters are not more advanced than lascannons. CSM should be about the forces that the legions of old can call upon today (40k that is).

b. If they did Daemonkin like the Khorne one, nah. Ok, the army special rules do change how the army plays, but it's just such a lazy copy-paste job. t would be better if they made the rules for CSM, CD and possibly Traitor Guards more open to synergy and cooperation. When you give the faction rules like "Can never join a unit not from this army list", you have sort of shut the door to most combo-themes.

c. We already have both the list in IA13 and the Vraks list in IA5:2ed. I don't really think we need yet one more Traitor Guard list. What we do need is a FAQ and Errata to the FW lists, because they are so badly written it's embarrassing.



How do you improve Chaos?
a. What rules need changed?
b. Should pts be altered?
c. What wargear needs to be updated?
d. What rules need added?


All these are tied together, so I'll give my thoughts as a lump.
At their current point cost, they would need something to make up for their lack of ATSKNF and combat tactics. I think Stubborn and Hatred against the Imperium should be standard on all CSM, and Veteran of the Long War changed to having Preferred Enemy against everything and +1Ld. If they did that the VotLW tax wouldn't be so crippling.

There are lots of points that needs to be tweaked. Just compare the Derodeo to the Forgefiend. 10 pts gives you about the same number of hits per turn with a S8 Ap4 gun, but the Derodeo get 12" extra range, Sunder, an extra twin-heavy bolter, Skyfire and Interceptor on top of having better armour too. The Forgefiend gets IWnD. It needs to go down in cost by around 40 pts at least. Same with the Defiler. Thousand Sons are also horribly overpriced, as are Possessed.
However, many of these units, at least the infantry would be in a much better spot if they had Preferred Enemy, and would likely only need minor tweaks of the points in that case.
The rules also needs to take into account internal balance. Compare Chosen tooled for close combat. Each model then costs more than a Terminator, but lacks the better gun and the 2+/5++ save. Why do they even have power weapons as an option? And if they were viable as a CC unit, then they can't simply outclass Berzerkers, because they do the exact same thing. And if Berzerkers are viable, then Possessed need to be comparable to them too. The CSM codes is an army list filled with elite close combat units without proper transports, in an edition where such units do not work.
This needs to be addressed, either by sharp points drops, or smaller points drops and access to useful transports for such units.

skorczeny
14-04-2016, 20:22
How much flexibility should there be?
a. Should there be grav weapons or something else entirely?
b. Give examples of what special rules, per legion/renegade chapter, should have.
c. Would more supplements for legions help?
d. Do you want a decurion detachment similar to Codex: SM? If not, what do you want to see?
e. What options do you want to see changed in the unit selection?

The squares at the bottom are me, but if you want me to change it, let me know. This is so you know it's from me
■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■

Move the squares to the top so we know its you.

e. Not sure exactly what you mean, but: Change the 'Chosen' unit. They should be something more than just 'has more special weapons'. They should have options for or rules to: infiltrate, be a dedicated bodyguard to a chaos lord (special 'look out sir'?), out flank, and/or have better stats... something like that.

LegioDestructor
14-04-2016, 20:27
Should Chaos armies be under a Codex: Chaos banner (think Adeptus Astartes)?
Personally I think the problem is down to the lack of choices for army selection. Our old codex is not my issue, it's the four supplements that focus on sorcerers, possessed, daemons, and cultists. They are (presumably?) great if you're a Khorne, Black Legion, or Word Bearer player but offer little to the rest. I see six flavours of Chaos:

Traitor Legions. BL/WB/NL/IW/AL. These are the most 'vanilla' but each have their own unique ways of warfare, which would be covered by formations like how the Scarblade or Talon Strike Forces eloquently highlight the fighting styles of the White Scars and Raven Guard without changing the main list. Re-include daemons as a 0-1 Elite/Troop/Fast option (flamers/horrors/screamers, etc.) that never count as scoring or mandatory choices.
Cults. Replace Codex: Daemons and the whole Daemonkin idea with Cults. Four books: Cult of Blood, Excess, Plague, and Change. Cult Marines, aligned Daemons, and formations based around the 4 gods, replacing those in KDK and Codex: Daemons. Able to make a daemonic force, a cult legion, or a mix of both but always devoted to a single god.
Renegades and Heretics. Everything from Red Corsairs to beastmen to traitor guardsmen to cultists. These are the scattered warbands and forces of uprising precursor to major chaos assaults. Like the list from Imperial Armour 13, but with limited units from current CSM; 0-1 Terminators, 0-2 Chaos Marine Squads, 0-1 Land Raiders, etc.


How do you improve Chaos?
I think only the chaos formations need to be changed in the way they are created... they are saying "take units X, Y, and Z" when it should be "take core plus a few of several options" like the Space Marine and Eldar formations do.

Allow us to ally with Adeptus Mechanicus, because history.


How much flexibility should there be?
No grav, but a new chaos weapon for sure. Maybe a torrent/rad weapon but something that exudes evil and exemplifies the horror of war not just technology.

Examples of special legion rules and a Chaos Marine Decurion? I'd be here all day. Honestly just the same idea only with our units - Chaos Space Marines are still Space Marines after all, only bitter... they remember how to wage war and have many of the same toys. The formations in upcoming Angels of Death perfectly suit their chapters, doing the same for the 9 traitor legions would not be difficult.

Herkamer63
14-04-2016, 20:46
Move the squares to the top so we know its you.

e. Not sure exactly what you mean, but: Change the 'Chosen' unit. They should be something more than just 'has more special weapons'. They should have options for or rules to: infiltrate, be a dedicated bodyguard to a chaos lord (special 'look out sir'?), out flank, and/or have better stats... something like that.

Options as far wargear and/or rules, so you're good. I'll make sure to be clearer next time. Sorry bout that.

Herkamer63
14-04-2016, 21:56
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Although there is a decent variety of units already, would new units help improve the armies?
a. What units would you like to see (other than the dreadclaw)?
b. Anything from SM or AM that should make an appearance?
c. Should any of the gargantuan greater daemons make the cut?

Infiltraitor
14-04-2016, 22:09
As much as I would like them to write the next codex with the 3.5 codex in mind, I get why they don't give CSM's tactics. They'd stray to close to being a mirror of loyalist marines and at that point, why not just the loyalist rules closest to what you what your CSM to do or why not just have one giant chaos book? I would imagine they want to give chaos marines a distinct flavor, but have lost track or the general idea of what they want them to be. I don't think they've had a clear vision of how a decent chaos force would look like since 2ed. The current book struggles for synergy and I couldn't imagine what they plan to do with units like KSons at this point. 2 wounds didn't work, 4++ save at such a high price point doesn't work. It's an up hill battle that I don't envy them for having to fight.

Beyond the rules, you then have to deal with the model aesthetic. Few people wanted "dinobots", I personally foresaw the headache associated with painting the Helldrakes wings or the grinning, petable maulerfiends and decided against incorperating them in my armies. But we have these fleshy additions to our armies and they have to be accounted for...but they don't fit in with the rest of the model line. It's another level of problem they'll have to contend with. Lastly, there's the meta. We have a fair number of close combat troops that aren't all that good in combat. Kitting out an aspiring champ to be challenge oriented is a poor use of points as they are not very likely to see combat and them the rewards for doing so are dubious at best. Hopefully with the advent of formations, we'll get something that will upgrade CSM functionality in lieu of a new codex.

Kerrahn
17-04-2016, 02:53
Now I'm not a Chaos player, but here's a couple of my ideas (some of which are just based around what a lot of people are saying anyway):

First I think VotLW should be changed into something like Chapter Tactics (so you'd have "Veterans of the Long War - Black Legion" for example) maybe for roughly the same cost and current rules, but with a few extra benefits. Works better than just having the Legion rules put in like the Chapter Tactics because people could still field Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter, and other renegades. The bonuses would just be straight buffs to the models themselves, rather than including any form of Force Org changes. World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children VotLW rules require them to purchase Marks, but don't get them for free (unless their Legion bonuses are not as strong to make up for this).

Possibly give Chosen the Warhammer Fantasy bonus of a free roll on Eye of the Gods? (Turning into Spawn or Daemon Prince only affects the Champion though)

Next thing, of course, is a Decurion where the Core choices should be either a 'Legion Warband' (Chaos Space Marines only, must all purchase, or gain for free, the same VotLW as each other) or a 'Renegade Warband' (includes Cultists but maybe not include as many Chosen or Terminator options).
Auxiliary choices could include some of the new Black Legion Formations but without the Black Legion rules (like the 'dinobot' one), a Cultist Formation (Dark Apostle and Cultists, if it doesn't already exist), a Formation of Possessed and Spawn (again, if it doesn't already exist), a tank Formation or 2, Heldrakes as solo choices, and then 4 Formations dedicated to the 4 Chaos Gods (so a Khorne one with Berzerkers and MoK only CSM units, a Tzeentch one with Thousand Sons and MoT units etc.)
Command would be the Psyker Formation, and a choice (not Formation) of 1 Chaos Lord / Sorceror / Daemon Prince and 0 - 1 Chosen / Terminators.

Then you could have something like Angels of Death that expands more on the Legions and includes the Crimson Slaughter rules (same way AoD added in the RG and WS rules from Kauyon), with unique Relics and Warlord Traits, and a small number of additional Decurions, especially for the Legions with God-specific units, such as a Death Guard one that had a Core made up of Plague Marines and Cultists that get upgraded to Plague Zombies, and then maybe adds Auxiliary with Nurgle Daemons. Could be cool to see a Thousand Sons Detachment that gives non-"Thousand Sons" models similar rules so you can have your Rubrick Raptors etc.

Haravikk
17-04-2016, 11:18
Personally my preferred vision would be a Codex: Space Marines style list focused on Chaos Legions, with supplements for some of the more unusual ones. I'd probably move the daemon engines into the daemons book to justify it being a separate book more, and to allow focusing on what's left for the legions book, but tie the two releases together so that they come either one after the other or even simultaneously with a few extra weeks of releases.

Above all, the main goal should be choice; I want to see marks, mutations and cults as key elements from which I can build my army, with bonuses for sticking to themes (or at least good themed formations to choose from), so I can represent less or more corrupted forces. The current list is just too boring, when really chaos armies should be radically different from each other with a bunch of elements to pick and choose from to encourage this; loyalist marines are the ones that stick to the codex astartes or strict dogma.

I sometimes even wonder if Chaos could do with more, smaller books; the whole idea of supplements should be perfect for them but has been so horribly under-utilised; with a bunch of core and supplementary books giving a heap of building-blocks to construct your army, but crucially they need to be done as a single project rather than just thrown out whenever.

malisteen
19-04-2016, 15:58
Chaos doesn't have the game space to fit a many-different-armies model. Daemons vs. Mortals is ok, and frankly too far gone to take back, but separate books for every alignment? Or separate books between 'legions' and 'renegades'? Let alone between different legions? No. Don't get me wrong, the current fluff supports it, but the game doesn't really, so IMO the fluff itself needs to be adapted, in order to make renegades and legionnaires different tiers within the same armies, rather than different armies altogether.

I would do this by emphasizing the attrition Legionnaires have suffered - in the heresy itself, in the scouring, the legion wars in the eye, and the millenia since. Those who survive should be super-elite, nigh immortal warriors supernaturally empowered by the favor of the gods (invited or not) - think paladins or wulfen. Not just basic space marines with a minor special rule tacked on. Powerful as they are, though, they should be very rare, and need to reach beyond their own ranks to attain the numbers needed to pose an actual sustained threat against the imperium, and this is where renegades come in. In fact, much chaos activity should be spent turning space marines renegade, or even just convincing the Inquisition that loyalist chapters have turned where they haven't. Once separated from the Imperiums graces, renegade space marines have few places to turn for supply and refuge, without which they will be hunted down mercilessly. Those who choose to hide in the permanent warp storms controlled by the chaos legions, some of the few refuges from Imperial retribution available, will quickly be set upon by Legion warbands, forced to join or die, offered at least the opportunity at vengeance against the Imperium that rejected them. Their wargear will be absorbed into the warband as well, and weapons and vehicles that the chaos warband lacks the means to maintain will be sold to the Dark Mechanicus.

This change would make Legions and Renegades part of the same armies, and we could finally do away with the pointless arguments between them on what the CSM codex is meant to represent. The majority of the codex would represent cheaper, weaker, more poorly equipped renegades, while the HQs and Elites would be flexible, expensive, super-elite legionnaires. These forces would be supplemented by a handful of cultist/latd style units, plus dark mechanicus units and daemon engines - note that I would recast Warpsmiths and oblits/muts as explicitly dark mechanicus agents, not necessarily former space marines. The Warpsmith in particular I would fluff as less a chaos tech marine (though leave open the possibility that some started out that way) and more a chaos tech priest dominus, and give them the narrative roll of not just maintaining a warband's armory, but also overseeing the tithes of captured wargear required by the warband's contracts with the Dark Mechanicus.


As for Legion rules - I wouldn't have any applied as a template to the whole army - after all, actual legionnaires are only supposed to be a minority in my take on chaos - but rather I would go out of my way to make the Legion HQ and elite units highly versatile (ie 'chosen' with full wargear access, options for terminator armor, bikes, jump packs, heavy weapons, further customizeable with a choice of skills), with some explicitly legion-themed options. How a chaos player outfit the centerpiece units of their lord and chosen would set the tone for the rest of their army, and that would be used to convey specific legion themes. This would also leave open the ability to have, say, an exile thousand sons sorcerer attached to your otherwise mostly Iron Warriors warband, or a missionary Word Bearers apostle summoning daemons for a World Eaters warband, that sort of thing, without bothering with entire allied detachments which would be necessary with detachment-wide legion rules.


All in all, It would be a pretty large shift for the faction thematically, and a lot of people probably wouldn't be happy with that, but when done it would be conceptually much more distinct from loyalist marines, and that distinction would allow chaos to be something other than just space marines ++ or --.

None of that gets into the real mechanical stuff needed - right now CSMs are a 5th edition army in a 7th edition game, fighting with auto havoks and plasmaguns and maulerfiends and chaos spawn against a galaxy of scatter bikes and grav cannons and storm surges and thunder wolves. The new renegade knight rules are actually a huge boon to CSM armies, doing a lot to drag them into the modern 40k paradigm, but a dramatic upgrade will still be needed in the quality of their codex armament (hades cannons and baleflamers everywhere, meaningful assault transport options) and units (possessed should look like wulfen, chosen like paladins). However, I really don't think a mechanical fix is possible, or at least, I don't think one will stick, without that fundamental conceptual re-working of what chaos marines ARE in the 41st millennium, with a vision for what would be sustainable in the game and what would give them a characters sufficiently distinct from 'spikey space marines' that they can be allowed to be something other than just 'objectively better' or 'objectively worse' loyalists.

And for those who prefer the old style legions, there's always the 30k rules and model line.

Beppo1234
19-04-2016, 16:48
My opinion is that FOC, Detachments are all things that don't fit with the label of 'chaos'. An army should consist of whatever the warp (a players brain) decides to spit out at any given time... like a 1000 obliterators suddenly marching out of a warp tear in the fabric of reality. Chaos should be chaotic and designed as a faction that draws its bonus' from being unbound, with some formations to represent personal warbands and fluffy units. I think a Chaos army should be more fluid to represent the chaotic nature of faction and the break down of any order that the Chaos legions had once had over the 10000 years, on and off, of hiding in another dimension.

Scammel
19-04-2016, 18:47
a. I think it should focus on the forces the old legions have evolved into. If you want to play legions, there is the 30k legion army lists. If you want to play modern marines, you can just go with the SM codex and have a Malefic Librarian or something. It makes no sense at all to focus on recent renegades such as Crimson Slaughter, simply because the gear is all wrong. Where did they find all these power mauls, axes and combi-weapons for their Termies? Where did they put all their grav-weapons, plasma cannons and multimeltas, Land Speeders and variant Land Raiders?

My own pet, pie-in-the-sky rewrite would see a considerable rehauling of all but the most basic CSM tech, to help bridge the curious gap between Legionnaires and Renegades, and also to sever the penis-envy-inducing cross-comparisons with the standard Marine book. I find it very hard to believe that the Dark Mechanicus would still be churning out the same Plasma Guns after all this time and that even recent Renegades wouldn't be forced to look to their services without the infrastructure of the Imperium before long. Arcane practices jealously guarded by the loyalists would be replaced by the shortcuts available to the DM; possession as a substitute for complex AI systems, 'soulfire' or what have you instead of volatile Plasma. An armoury more suited for the Traitors of today, with plenty of Ignores Cover, Soulblaze and Shred, suited for the endless siege warfare on the march to Terra.