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Latro_
15-04-2016, 10:37
Am i just getting old or are all these new supplement books that provide new formations / units / rules for existing 40k factions really starting to muddy the waters as to what an army is and can take?

Its like you have:

Angels of Death (pre-order)
War Zone Damocles: Mont'ka
War Zone Damocles: Kauyon
War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen
Sanctus Reach: The Red Waaagh!
Haemonculus Covens - A Codex: Dark Eldar Supplement
Champions of Fenris - A Codex: Space Wolves supplement
Sentinels of Terra - A Codex: Space Marines Supplement
Crimson Slaughter - a Codex: Chaos Space Marines supplement
Black Legion - A Codex: Chaos Space Marines Supplement
Farsight Enclaves, A Codex: Tau Empire Supplement
Waaagh! Ghazghkull - A Codex: Orks Supplement
Clan Raukaan - A Codex: Space Marines Supplement
Shield of Baal: Leviathan

did i miss any?
All of these supplement 'core' codex armies in some way e.g. you need the core codex.

With the coming angels of death... GW just seems to be speeding up doings this. At some point they are going to have to re-do the core codex right? what happens then... are they pushing them selves into a corner of a total mess? This isnt even including dataslates and other WD/WHW stuff.

Like for 'chaos' you have this:
Codex Chaos space marines
Codex Daemons
Codex Khorne Daemonkin
Crimson Slaughter Supplement (second edition of a supplement! with a 2012 codex)
Black Legion Supplement (second edition of a supplement! with a 2012 codex)
War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen
Dataslate: Kh‚rn's Butcherhorde
Dataslate: Kranon's Helguard
Dataslate: Helbrutes
Dataslate: Cypher - Lord of the Fallen
Dataslate: Be'lakor, The Dark Master
Warhammer World Exclusive Campaign: Blood Oath
Imperial Armour 13 (i know FW but its a big thing for chaos)

Is it getting a bit nuts? The last actual codex update was Tau in october 2015 right? they'v not actually done a full codex update in 6-7 months?

Is The Paradox of Choice stressing you out?

For me its the warzone books that cross pollinate armies with new rules... just riles me up... it says warzone fenris... how do i know that has chaos stuff in it!?!

Sureshot05
15-04-2016, 10:45
Completely. And its why formations are getting such a bad reputation. Balance in the core books is off, but the formations wreck havoc with these things. More crucially, it makes playing the army increasingly impossible. Each formation release feels like a pay to win affair, which overall cheapens the image of the game and the brand.

I hope that in the next edition, they investigate and learn from what makes their competitors do so well, and reinvest in the game, the same way they invest in the miniatures. Competitors like Xwing, etc are on the rise and if GW do not learn from their mistakes, it will be the end of the game in the long term.

((Woah, that sounds all very negative, and well, it is, but it is only negative because like many others, i can see the potential, and can clearly see how GW are squandering it.))

duffybear1988
15-04-2016, 10:45
I've actually just given up on this edition of 40k. Far too many supplements and additional rules that really add next to nothing to the game as a whole. I remember when people moaned about having to buy WD to keep up with all the special rules back in 3rd and 4th ed, but at least that was only £2.50 a go and you could just tear out the 2 or 3 pages and stick them in a binder.

Most people don't have the space, time or money to keep up with what GW are pumping out now and it's obviously not going to end well. Can you imagine what the next edition is going to end up like? It's either going to have to invalidate a lot of rules, barely change, or they will have to release a whole book of FAQs and errata. I just don't see it happening.

A.T.
15-04-2016, 11:11
Is The Paradox of Choice stressing you out?No (sisters of battle player)

But "death by special rule i've never heard of" is a thing - I'm sure the new marine model is going to catch a few tyranid players out when a random tactical marine instant-deaths their swarmlord for instance.

NatBrannigan
15-04-2016, 11:18
Couldn't agreemore. The only supplement I bought was the Scions one which is actually standalone(used in conjunction with my IG). It's confusing for everyone and the sheernumber of rules you have to remember when playing against a formation heavyarmy makes the game tedious and frustrating.

But now for the biggest problem, have you tried explaining them to a potentialnew player? A friend of mine wanted to get into war-games and I showed him 40k.He worried that it was too complicated to start with (ďA rulebook you couldtake out an Elephant withĒ) but I convinced him to give it a go, saying itís okonce youíre used to it. He enjoyed a simple test game enough to look at choosingan army, so success so far.

He wanted tocheck out Chaos and we went through the available rules. Even I didnít have aclue what books / dataslates to buy and when the rules alone went into thetriple figures mark for everything he wanted, that was thatÖ

£50 later hehad a copy of X-wing and a few expansions.

If they keepgoing down this path GW are doomed, and I likeGW! (Except Age of Sigmar, bleh)

Zombie P
15-04-2016, 11:32
I have some strong feelings specifically on the warzone books at the moment. When they first came out (Red Waaaagh), I was very excited. Even though I dont own anywhere near enough guard to do any of the battles, the resource it provided was personally invaluable and very invigorating. It was like I remember through strongly tinted rose spectacles from the 3rd edition campaign codex's and I lapped it up. I still do, Shield of Baal was great and Damocles was fantastic, even if they are messing with the overall "Metaplot", but as duffy says my funds for this kind of thing are in short supply, and my time to actually read them is in very short supply! I hadn't read the second part of Damocles until three weeks ago, and I bought it when it was released.

I must reiterate, I do enjoy them and I think they are a good thing, but the speed at which they are being produced is very off putting. From experience I know that in a competitive setting these supplements are a real challenge to keep a hold of. Back in 6th edition, I used to know my way around every codex, there was very little that I was not at least mostly familiar with, as in I knew what it did and what priority it would receive in my firing order. But now, there are formations coming out of anywhere and everywhere and I feel like I am getting outmaneuvered but literature rather than a skilled opponent.

In a private setting, as in at home, these supplements are very useful for me as they allow me to craft scenarios, develop campaigns, and run these formations in a true expression of their intention (or what I feel to be their intention).

So in conclusion, for the competitive setting, these supplements are a total nightmare. I haven't even begun to address the MASSIVE issues that will occur with parent codex updates, which there will be. But in the comfortable space of your own home/shed/gamingcave/store these supplements are a good thing. Just, slow down a little yeah?

ZP

Latro_
15-04-2016, 11:50
You make a good point about the competitive setting didnt even consider then realised it got me good a while back.

Went to a local tourney and a Tau guy had a nuts riptide formation and a battle suit one... he started the pre-game what everything does stuff and i switched off, i think i might of even said lets just get the game going it was just way to much to take in / taking time to explain. Of course he crafted his list, he knew what every rule did as you'd expect. Now i know roughly what a riptide and battle suit can do / how to kills them but to know all that other stuff... we're starting to talk needing a Wikipedia knowledge of stuff.

The fact i'm not 100% i'v even included all the books etc my main army chaos can even take, the books and slates! nevermind the rules within... i'v gotta have a grasp on every other factions?

bless ryan the local tourney organiser who checks all the lists pre-tournament! do not envy that job.

skorczeny
15-04-2016, 12:31
Agreed. The explosion of content between 6th edition and 7th edition to today has led to a lot of confusion and frustration. We gave up on this edition entirely. Hoping for a better future edition.

blackcherry
15-04-2016, 12:33
I've decided this edition to stick to the core books that interest me and not much else. The main rules, with its overload of rules (with more special rules in each codex and supplement) is too much for my brain to want to keep a hold of these days, so I've moved onto other rulesets which aren't so bogged down. I've mostly stayed with 40k for the background and the occasional fun game.

The only reason I know half of what does what still is because most units haven't changed much in a few editions and I don't play with superheavies. How people keep on top of it for competitive play, or even casual play, I have no idea.

Herkamer63
15-04-2016, 13:24
i actually don't mind at all. some good things are actually coming out of it. people get to play what they want to play, and with the current warzone books, 2 armies got some new units and rules. if it makes it any easier, just focus on the army(s) you're playing currently.

Zombie P
15-04-2016, 13:25
How people keep on top of it for competitive play, or even casual play, I have no idea.

Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition.

ZP

theJ
15-04-2016, 13:27
"starting to"?
Mate, my brain's been practically comatose since half-way through 6th.
Haven't bought books, haven't played tournies... I've barely even painted.
Only reason I'm still around is because fantasy is even more buggered up, and my locals REFUSE to try other games.

Denny
15-04-2016, 13:50
I can see how it could bother a competitive gamer, but I play with friends and we only need to know the rules that effect our armies.
I think sometimes gamers fall into a completist mindset; 'I must know all the rules for everything I could possibly face', but it's you only really need to know the rules for the army you are about to play against . . .

insectum7
15-04-2016, 13:57
I just don't buy them.

Other players use them and that's fine. But I just ask questions before and during the game and learn through playing against them. When I have to problem solve around new rules or units, that's when they stick in my brain. It means that my first game against some armies are tough. . . but there's no better way to learn than through making mistakes. My 2nd and 3rd games against the same player tend to go much better.

There are a ton of special rules, it would be exhausting if I tried to remember all of them. But it's usually pretty easy to see what an opposing player is going for with their list when they introduce things. I mentally do a cliffs-notes thing and just remember basic attributes. "those are fast melee, those are static shooters, that thing is really tough but susceptible to melta, those I can reliably bolter down, those have a huge cover save" etc. Then I build a basic strategy in reaction to those attributes and how they deploy.

Edit:

. . . you only really need to know the rules for the army you are about to play against . . .

Yes, exactly.

Not unlike school exams :)

MagicHat
15-04-2016, 14:04
Angels of death combines the stuff in Sentinels of terra, Clan Raukaan, and the SM parts of kauyon. And adds a little more.

So, bad for explaining to a beginner, certainly, although for Codex: SM it is as simple as saying "buy AoD".

I can't say that I have any problem keeping up with what is out there though, and I find the new style of campaign books works better then the older style supplements.

Rabbitden
15-04-2016, 15:00
I agree in that there are too many supplements with specific rules. The game is getting bogged down in specialist knowledge, formations, decurions, bolt on extras etc. I'm lucky in that I only play casually with a group of friends who barely use formations or supplements. I'm all for adding flavour to a force (DE covens list, Scion list etc) but the amount of paperwork you have to carry around nowadays is becoming silly.

Theocracity
15-04-2016, 15:12
Yeah.

I love the idea behind the Formation Detachment structures they've been providing, but the scattershot way they've been presented makes me tune out pretty quick. Though I've been doing more painting than playing, so that's not a big loss.

At this point I'm more likely to make up my own detachment rules next time I play rather than track down whatever supplements have a half-baked collection of improperly tuned formations that were provided in lieu of a codex update. Brainstorming cool rules is usually the fun part of this hobby, anyhow.

I'm also not one to collect other army's rule books, though, so I get to avoid a lot of that confusion.

skorczeny
15-04-2016, 15:31
It would be simpler and better if GW had a clear approach to how they wanted to add more content.
The combination of dataslates, supplements, campaign books, sub-faction books (i.e. demonkin of khorne) has been such a mess that it is frustrating.
Quality is also a concern. I was so disappointed with the Black Legion supplement from top to bottom (narrative, rules, art) that I binned it.

odinsgrandson
15-04-2016, 15:42
I haven't been playing much in the current edition. For me, the best days of 40k were around the switch from 3rd to 4th ed.

At that time, the codex books were largely about how many different sorts of things you could do with a single force. The Chaos Space Marines 'dex had rules for playing all nine founding chaos legions, while the Space Marine and Imperial Guard books offered ways of designing your own chapter/legion (as well as rules for the most iconic ones).

While the balance was a bit spotty on some of these (you could make a close combat focused IG legion, and you'd end up paying 20% extra for troops that were less effective than ever). But I loved the diversity of what I saw.

The current system- with all of the supplemental books- reminds me a little of that. But there are just so many coming out, it is difficult to keep up with all of it. And the game has always rewarded you for knowing your opponent's 'dex as well as your own, which is made difficult with so many books coming out.

blackcherry
15-04-2016, 16:09
I think what needs to be done is another reset of the rules as was the case in 3rd, and to a lesser degree, 5th edition. The first codex's out the gate for 5th were stripped back, with less focus on super special rules for each unit and more about units adhering to the rules in the main rulebook and letting players use their imagination to figure out how they fit.

A big reset of power levels, with all the factions having stripped back rules included in the main rulebook that supersede everything would be great. It would allow for balanced separate codexs to come out later. Throw in a few warzone books that allow you to play armies in unique ways* and that should be all you need.

Alternatively, embrace the digital age fully and have each boxed set come with a code that lets you download a datasheet for the unit, which updates automatically in line with any future releases.

*So one warzone could allow you to create a renegade CSM force from the space marine codex and a haemonculus coven for example, with special background and scenarios that go with it.

Zombie P
15-04-2016, 17:02
Rumor has it the digital editions of setinels of terra and Clan Rau'kasdasadfnasdba or whatever updated when these new(er) versions of the supplements came out.

ZP

ashc
15-04-2016, 17:10
Rules overload. Can't see myself getting back in to 40k.

Angelwing
15-04-2016, 17:50
Yes.
I have a vague idea what opposition stuff does (its shooty, its fast, its assault etc) but formation rules from supplements are very difficult to keep up with. PUG can be very messy, with people who have all their rules on a tiny smartphone screen. I love the idea of formations, its the execution that has been bungled.

Rarely use them myself.

Azazyll
15-04-2016, 19:24
I'm just peeved that they cost an arm and a leg and all I get is mediocre fluff and a few formations, which clearly required no thought or creativity. The warzones in particular are outrageous. More than a hundred dollars for fanfic quality crap mixed in with a handful of new rules, two thirds of which are for other armies I don't have. On top of that they get reprinted in something cheaper six months later now. Had I known that I would have skipped the whole warzone Damocles.

ashc
15-04-2016, 20:06
I'm just peeved that they cost an arm and a leg and all I get is mediocre fluff and a few formations, which clearly required no thought or creativity. The warzones in particular are outrageous. More than a hundred dollars for fanfic quality crap mixed in with a handful of new rules, two thirds of which are for other armies I don't have. On top of that they get reprinted in something cheaper six months later now. Had I known that I would have skipped the whole warzone Damocles.

Yes, I used to be the kind of person who bought every codex (3rd-4th edition). When they went to hardback and became more expensive I got more frugal (even though I went from humble student to employed professional). When I realised GW were aiming to release a new hardback almost every couple of weeks with little content was when i knew to jump ship.

Latro_
15-04-2016, 20:18
Heres a shock for you, there are 77 'printed' books 226720

sicarius68
15-04-2016, 21:37
Yeah it's getting much, I have a hard time keeeping track on all the supplements. Wasn't there also a supplement for Cadians?

Killgore
15-04-2016, 22:38
Why not just buy the supplements relevant to your armies and leave other people to choose the ones they like?

Choice is a good thing, and as for the balance problem... well we all remember how 'fun' 4th edition codexes were.

blackcherry
15-04-2016, 23:08
Why not just buy the supplements relevant to your armies and leave other people to choose the ones they like?

Choice is a good thing, and as for the balance problem... well we all remember how 'fun' 4th edition codexes were.

Very, very fun?

TheBearminator
15-04-2016, 23:16
Not very happy for the current trend wiry supplements and datasheets. Give us wellwritten codices with lots of opportunities instead.

Treadhead_1st
15-04-2016, 23:25
There's way too much stuff, but there's enough of it that I like that I would hate for GW to cut back. For instance, I'm getting the Angels of Death book soon as I play Salamanders and have some funky proper rules and wargear options for the first time since 3rd Edition; I also bought the Cadia supplement as they're the Guard faction I play and I was interested in getting some 7th Edition formations. It's selfish, but I don't want my recent/future purchases invalidated without a reasonable timespan passing.

What both of these had going for them is that they're consolidations of published material - AoD is Clan Raukaan, Sentinels of Terra, some WD articles and Warzone Damocles Kauyon all rolled up into one bundle with brand new content too, similarly Cadia bundled stuff from The Red Waaagh, Warzone Damocles Mont'ka, Echoes of War: Last Step Backwards (never heard of it), and I think maybe something from Shield of Baal too (no mention in webstore entry of that one though?). The fact it had rules for the Super-Heavy tanks was also a key factor, I still aspire to own one a squadron one day.

I was really interested in the latest developments to the 40K background with the reveal of Warzone: Fenris, but there's just so much stuff coming out these days that I can't keep up. Once I am done with my current projects, there's an Iron Warriors army I've had some cool ideas for - but dear lord there are a lot of Chaos supplements and data-slates, some of which have really cool units/formations which fit with 7th's cherry-picking army building and could be made really thematic, but I simply can't justify the book outlay.

ColShaw
16-04-2016, 02:19
Why not just buy the supplements relevant to your armies and leave other people to choose the ones they like?

Choice is a good thing, and as for the balance problem... well we all remember how 'fun' 4th edition codexes were.

Like the 4th Ed Imperial Guard codex, with its plethora of doctrines? Still the best IG codex they've ever done?

I fail to see your point.

Abaraxas
16-04-2016, 08:37
Unfortunately, people keep buying all these supplements and that only encourages GW to come out with more...and can you blame them?

And people say Rogue Trader was complicated and all over the place!

Spiney Norman
16-04-2016, 10:38
With respect this is nothing new, 40k has been dead as a competitive game since before the end of 5th (GK codex release day as I recall), probably before that, it has been on an accelerating downward spiral ever since.

This is the main reason I don't play 40k any more, I've been heresy-only for about 18 months now.

ashc
16-04-2016, 13:34
With respect this is nothing new, 40k has been dead as a competitive game since before the end of 5th (GK codex release day as I recall), probably before that, it has been on an accelerating downward spiral ever since.

This is the main reason I don't play 40k any more, I've been heresy-only for about 18 months now.

I have been wondering if 30k is kept more 'in check' than the core game has, but I haven't kept up.

Killgore
16-04-2016, 13:43
Like the 4th Ed Imperial Guard codex, with its plethora of doctrines? Still the best IG codex they've ever done?

I fail to see your point.

How about Codex Dark Angels and Chaos? and the change in codex direction when less was... better? or balanced, I can't remember how it was spun, but the end result was many unhappy gamers.

Lord Damocles
16-04-2016, 15:52
Heres a shock for you, there are 77 'printed' books 226720
That includes novels, the painting guides and small format books, though.

A.T.
16-04-2016, 18:23
How about Codex Dark Angels and Chaos? and the change in codex direction when less was... better? or balanced, I can't remember how it was spun, but the end result was many unhappy gamers.Gav Thorpe himself wrote a few articles on the 4e chaos book (and things like rules in supplements, etc)
http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2009/09/15/codex-chaos-space-marines/

insectum7
16-04-2016, 21:47
How about Codex Dark Angels and Chaos? and the change in codex direction when less was... better? or balanced, I can't remember how it was spun, but the end result was many unhappy gamers.

During 4th Ed those two books were the exception to the trend, and Chaos came out less than a year before 5th Ed. so I'd argue that it's primarily a 5th Ed. book. The majority of 4th Ed. was options on top of options with extra articles released about additional options. A very lively time for the game, particularly around army building. The two armies that were truly stifled were maybe Orks and DE, because their codexes hadn't been updated in a long, long time. Orks had a out though, with Speed Freaks and Feral Orks list supplements.

For Dark Engels, maybe it's heresy, but if you didn't like their book the standard SM book had plenty of options in it to cover you. Stubborn rules, Terminator command squads, "Isolationist" mentality through chapter traits. There were options.

starbeam
16-04-2016, 21:50
Very much so. I started in 2nd edition. Very simple. You needed the rule book, and the codex for your desired army, and that was it. Far too confusing now. Detachments, formations, factions, data slates, supplements, forge world rules, white dwarf etc etc. Still struggle figuring out how to pick a legal 'army' anymore, or indeed what an 'army' even is. Hopefully in future games workshop can produce a one-stop product that contains everything you need to know to play an army. Or just one bumper rule book-esq codex book that contains everything for every army. Or two, one for imperial forces, one for 'enemy's of the imperium' or whatever. Sadly I know this would never happen as they would lose a fortune from codex/ supplement sales.

Far too complicated for my little brain.

insectum7
16-04-2016, 23:42
Very much so. I started in 2nd edition. Very simple. You needed the rule book, and the codex for your desired army, and that was it.

That's still the case. Everything beyond rule book and codex is still optional. The only written material I bring to my gaming club other than rulebook and codex are mission cards. Mission cards are also in the rule book, btw. I just have them for convenience.

(For 2nd, you're forgetting vehicle datafaxes and wargear cards, only some of which were in codexes. There was also a high probability that you required the Wargear book, the Dark Millenium book, psychic power cards and the psychic phase deck.)

Casper Hawser
17-04-2016, 08:36
I often think they are recycling a lot of 2nd edition for 7th.
I like supplements like IA 13 because they add a lot of units to your army. I'm not keen on the campaign supplements like shield of Baal because you buy your codex then a month of so later you need to spend another £45 to get the formations for your army.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

duffybear1988
17-04-2016, 15:33
It's got to the point where if somebody made a fake dataslate and claimed it was a new one from GW I doubt anyone could tell the difference. I know I couldn't and I used to know every codex cover to cover.

Spiney Norman
17-04-2016, 16:24
I have been wondering if 30k is kept more 'in check' than the core game has, but I haven't kept up.

I think so, although my pool of opponents is small and we don't really have any 'that guys' in the heresy group so I maybe have a slightly skewed view. It's fair to say that it's easier to balance a game where (almost) every army list is essentially the same with minor alterations. It's also fair to say that rites of war are much more a balance between giving extra tactical options and adding significant limiting restrictions rather than the 'give out free special rules as a reward for buying more models' which seems to be how most 40k formations operate.

In 40k there is almost no reason to run a CAD any more (unless you are playing sisters of battle, who don't have a choice) because the majority of formations give a greater benefit for no downside other than dictating what units you have to take. In 30k running a list with no RoW is typically as common as running a list with one because of the way benefits and restrictions are traded off.

Latro_
17-04-2016, 19:39
Its also probably owing to the fact the 30k scene is more niche and attracts guys entering it from a fluffy or hobbyist angle or both.


It's got to the point where if somebody made a fake dataslate and claimed it was a new one from GW I doubt anyone could tell the difference. I know I couldn't and I used to know every codex cover to cover.

XD i know right! The more i think about it perhaps it would be liberating to just do away with all of them and force org and just make unbound how we play 40k... the more i think about it the more it may as well be the norm. Some of the formations out there add so much to lists that they'd probably trump a good proportion unbound armies anyway... Plus going unbound its not like you cant use the models you had in your beardy formation. Or to stop sillyness say unbound but you cant have more than 4 of the same unit...

Dosiere
18-04-2016, 01:39
I am not sure myself. More content for the game is nice on one hand, and on the other it's all so spread out and constantly released in dribbles I couldn't even tell you what's going on anymore. At this point I would almost like to just have unbound as standard, at least I wouldn't have to deal with all the special formation rules in every game.

I like that in theory, it makes it easier for someone to find their niche inside of a particular army because the formations can make certain builds viable that really weren't before. In reality, I really don't know.

herjan1987
18-04-2016, 03:08
If some can get a hand on a Age of Sigmar rulebook and one of these suppliments, then try out and compare it. I reckon, you will be shocked. Althought I am trying to get into WFB 8th edition ( you can play a game which is not supported :) ), and dont touch either 40k or AoS, but I strongly believe that the sigmarisation of 40k has begun.

Freman Bloodglaive
18-04-2016, 06:11
Couldn't agreemore. The only supplement I bought was the Scions one which is actually standalone(used in conjunction with my IG). It's confusing for everyone and the sheernumber of rules you have to remember when playing against a formation heavyarmy makes the game tedious and frustrating.

But now for the biggest problem, have you tried explaining them to a potentialnew player? A friend of mine wanted to get into war-games and I showed him 40k.He worried that it was too complicated to start with (ďA rulebook you couldtake out an Elephant withĒ) but I convinced him to give it a go, saying itís okonce youíre used to it. He enjoyed a simple test game enough to look at choosingan army, so success so far.

He wanted tocheck out Chaos and we went through the available rules. Even I didnít have aclue what books / dataslates to buy and when the rules alone went into thetriple figures mark for everything he wanted, that was thatÖ

£50 later hehad a copy of X-wing and a few expansions.

If they keepgoing down this path GW are doomed, and I likeGW! (Except Age of Sigmar, bleh)

Sorry. dark grey on black is hard to read.

Smooth Boy
18-04-2016, 07:19
I never thought I'd say this but Age of Sigmar may have got one thing right, no more than 2 special rules affecting a model should be something applied to 40K. Replace formations with specialist FoC like the Iron Warriors used to have or the system they use in 30K.

Freman Bloodglaive
18-04-2016, 07:42
Remember how people were convinced Unbound would break 40k?

Now it's probably the most balanced way to play.

I'm happy playing with bikes, dreadnoughts, and terminators. But then I haven't had a game in ages.

Azazyll
18-04-2016, 13:29
It's got to the point where if somebody made a fake dataslate and claimed it was a new one from GW I doubt anyone could tell the difference. I know I couldn't and I used to know every codex cover to cover.

How could you know, unless you bought every $500+ one-click bundle from GW that included a free uber detachment as the sole incentive? :/

duffybear1988
18-04-2016, 15:58
How could you know, unless you bought every $500+ one-click bundle from GW that included a free uber detachment as the sole incentive? :/

Exactly right. I could just photoshop a new dataslate, release it as a rumour with a blurry screenshot so it'll appear on faeit and some other dodgy rumour sites and then claim it came in one of the ridiculously priced GW box sets that nobody actually buys.

Lord Damocles
18-04-2016, 18:13
Is that a thing which actually happens?

'What's this formation which makes all your guys WS/BS 10?'
'Oh it's real alright. Here look - a blurry picture on Faeit.'
'Well if it was on Faeit it must be legit regardless of whether I've never heard of it. I'll certainly make no further enquiries.'

A.T.
18-04-2016, 18:14
Is that a thing which actually happens?Nobody questioned the blurry picture of the space marine with the AP2 instant death infinite use combi-bolter.

Lord Damocles
18-04-2016, 18:29
Nobody questioned the blurry picture of the space marine with the AP2 instant death infinite use combi-bolter.
I can Google 'Imperial Space Marine rules' and see that the rules exist in more places than just that blurry picture.

If I hadn't seen (or at least heard about) disintegration guy's rules prior to an opponent presenting a blurry picture of them, I wouldn't just believe that they were legit on that dodgy evidence.


I'm not arguing that there aren't too many formations and what-have-you, but there's no need to slide into hyperbole.

Theocracity
18-04-2016, 18:53
I never thought I'd say this but Age of Sigmar may have got one thing right, no more than 2 special rules affecting a model should be something applied to 40K. Replace formations with specialist FoC like the Iron Warriors used to have or the system they use in 30K.


Remember how people were convinced Unbound would break 40k?

Now it's probably the most balanced way to play.

I'm happy playing with bikes, dreadnoughts, and terminators. But then I haven't had a game in ages.

You know, I'm starting to feel like a slate-cleaning AoS style rules set for 40k wouldn't be an entirely bad thing. I know competitive gamers wouldn't like it, but from the sounds of it the competitive scene is a complete hash right now anyway. If they make the base unit profiles simple and add formations to give thematic rules, with unbound as a 'standard' way to play, I honestly wouldn't mind at this point. Even having points values seems less necessary in my view, based on how arbitrary they are in defining actual balance for units these days. I would prefer more granular scenario / win conditions though - AoS's 'outnumbering' rules never made much sense to me.

insectum7
18-04-2016, 19:56
Even having points values seems less necessary in my view, based on how arbitrary they are in defining actual balance for units these days. I would prefer more granular scenario / win conditions though - AoS's 'outnumbering' rules never made much sense to me.

I dunno, man. The point system, even if points are clearly not absolute, is still a great way of designating an approximate value and putting constraints on army design.

Not to mention the many hours one can spend modifying lists trying to get the most "bang for buck", or coming up with unit combinations and trying to fit them into a list. I get a ton of engagement out of it and I'd be pretty disappointed if that went away. Despite all the declarations that it's not the intention or whatever, I still get a lot of fun out of working out how to make a take-all-comers list out of a singe codex.

It's not that I don't believe that a different system might not work, but I'm really skeptical of the idea that you can get the same level of off-the-tabletop involvement without points or a system that will wind up being so similar that it's not worth the change.

Better to rectify the issues that exist, i.e. Formations like Skyhammer Annihilation are a poor use of Formations, and armies consisting nearly entirely of Warp Spiders being popular at tournaments is a pretty disappointing thing to see.



Nobody questioned the blurry picture of the space marine with the AP2 instant death infinite use combi-bolter.

I can upload a sharper one if you want :)

Theocracity
18-04-2016, 20:04
I dunno, man. The point system, even if points are clearly not absolute, is still a great way of designating an approximate value and putting constraints on army design.

Not to mention the many hours one can spend modifying lists trying to get the most "bang for buck", or coming up with unit combinations and trying to fit them into a list. I get a ton of engagement out of it and I'd be pretty disappointed if that went away. Despite all the declarations that it's not the intention or whatever, I still get a lot of fun out of working out how to make a take-all-comers list out of a singe codex.

It's not that I don't believe that a different system might not work, but I'm really skeptical of the idea that you can get the same level of off-the-tabletop involvement without points or a system that will wind up being so similar that it's not worth the change.

Better to rectify the issues that exist, i.e. Formations like Skyhammer Annihilation are a poor use of Formations, and armies consisting nearly entirely of Warp Spiders being popular at tournaments is a pretty disappointing thing to see.

I totally get that. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about the points issue overall. But I do know that it's frustrating when units that would be cool or fun to take get costed out of practical use, or units that are already super effective get priced so low that they become ubiquitous. And it doesn't feel like this is something that's going to change, based on the reluctance of GW to update base codexes recently, and even when they do I doubt they'll suddenly get it all right.

I don't think I actually want points to go away, but I do wish for some sort of clean slate. I feel like the current messy state of the rules won't be solved by piecemeal errata.

Saunders
18-04-2016, 20:31
I find it's best not to get caught up in the minutiae of it all. If someone's got a book that says X, then so be it. If they'be got the rules, surely there must be a hardcopy of it.

I don't find it to be a big deal that I can't recall every codex rule or daraslate off the top of my head anymore.

insectum7
18-04-2016, 21:03
I don't think I actually want points to go away, but I do wish for some sort of clean slate. I feel like the current messy state of the rules won't be solved by piecemeal errata.

I agree with the notion of cleaning the slate. But it's hard for me to think that that would go over very well for at least some time, because of the amount of expansions. How clean can you scrape the slate without immediately making obsolete all those expansions you've just published? How much will that will irk the fanbase?

It's another reason why I tend not to buy expansions these days. The amount of use I'll get out of them before they're no longer viable makes it not a great investment.

Theocracity
18-04-2016, 21:14
I agree with the notion of cleaning the slate. But it's hard for me to think that that would go over very well for at least some time, because of the amount of expansions. How clean can you scrape the slate without immediately making obsolete all those expansions you've just published? How much will that will irk the fanbase?

It's another reason why I tend not to buy expansions these days. The amount of use I'll get out of them before they're no longer viable makes it not a great investment.

Yeah same. I don't think the current publishing rate is all that sustainable. But I think what they've been doing is in response to the idea that people don't want to have to re-buy codexes that came out recently, so instead they're doing everything as supplements and war zone books. And then the collection of war zone rules that act like a new codex. So either way they're not gonna make people happy - it's either reprinted codexes or multiple new formation books. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

On the other hand, most of what they've been publishing are formations, not changes to base rules for units. They could technically do a clean sweep of base unit rules while keeping all those formations 'valid.' Maybe that's their master plan. I'm not sure it'd work but it'd be kind of cool if they pull it off.

All I know is that I'm opting out of buying rules books until I know for sure what direction they're going. I got plenty to paint in the meantime.

Zustiur
19-04-2016, 05:40
I got plenty to paint in the meantime.
This.
Also, the last supplement I purchased was the 3rd ed craftworld eldar.
You can infer my opinion of 'splat books' from that.
I didn't even buy the last DA codex. I don't care for formations and detachments, the remaining changes I did with pencil in my 6th ed codex.


sent via tapatalk

beanerboy
19-04-2016, 06:46
In my mind it all started when the nids got a bunch of models released with out them being included in the main codex... After that people rumoured they would get a new codex with them included... But a year or so later and still nothing. I thought the individual stand alone supplements were kinda cool. Like the chaos ones and the marine ones and farsight. However I just became confused when the war zone ones dropped including rules for multiple armies etc. I don't know now which ones are up to date, which ones are due a rehash etc. Also this move to some softback some hardback really turns me off. I like consistency in my collection not a mishmash.

TheBearminator
20-04-2016, 00:13
Short answer: very much, yes.

Russell's teapot
20-04-2016, 08:46
They could technically do a clean sweep of base unit rules while keeping all those formations 'valid.' Maybe that's their master plan. I'm not sure it'd work but it'd be kind of cool if they pull it off.

All I know is that I'm opting out of buying rules books until I know for sure what direction they're going. I got plenty to paint in the meantime.

I'm not convinced that there is a "Master plan" beyond "BUY OUR MODELS".

They've certainly shown with 6th (the rules) and 7th (slightly better rules, but making points irrelevant) Ed 40k, and with AoS (what rules) a complete disregard for making games that are in any way balanced.

I, and most of my friends want a game you can just play out of the box, we're busy, working people, we only have 2-3 hours of gaming a week. We all have neither the time, nor the inclination to go through house ruling what we should and shouldn't take in the name of "balance", nor play a game of "gotcha" because one side has a bunch of special rules for no point cost and no apparent reason.

No one I know is buying anything from GW at the moment.

Gingerwerewolf
20-04-2016, 11:25
There is no pleasing some people. People used to complain that their army didnt get enough updates, but now they complain that they are coming too fast. *sigh* Ah well

No I dont find it a bad thing, Im happy that GW seem to be listening to us.

If the number of Supplements is hurting your brain, then get something like battlescribe - it has everything you need in one place and has all the rules you need.

Sorted :D

aprilmanha
20-04-2016, 12:12
There is no pleasing some people. People used to complain that their army didnt get enough updates, but now they complain that they are coming too fast. *sigh* Ah well

Hint Hint... It might just be that the people complaining before and the ones complaining now are not the same people..... just maybe different groups of people have different opinions that conflict on certain issues :P

If anything GW need to stop listening to people and just do them, since its impossible to please everyone. Since there is no such thing as the universal GW Fan who agrees with all other GW Fans.

skorczeny
20-04-2016, 12:38
There is no pleasing some people. People used to complain that their army didnt get enough updates, but now they complain that they are coming too fast. *sigh* Ah well

No I dont find it a bad thing, Im happy that GW seem to be listening to us.

If the number of Supplements is hurting your brain, then get something like battlescribe - it has everything you need in one place and has all the rules you need.

Sorted :D

Getting an updated codex to the current edition, every edition, is what many hope for (and most get).

Having your codex/army updated irregularly over the course of 3+ years with material found in a dozen or more different costly sources -some of which repeat or invalidate each other- is NOT something I imagine anyone hopes for.

Azazyll
20-04-2016, 18:03
Yeah I wasn't happy and I'm still not happy, because there is a Goldilocks sweetspot and they missed it

sephiroth87
20-04-2016, 22:07
Getting an updated codex to the current edition, every edition, is what many hope for (and most get).

Having your codex/army updated irregularly over the course of 3+ years with material found in a dozen or more different costly sources -some of which repeat or invalidate each other- is NOT something I imagine anyone hopes for.

^ This.


Let's say I was starving and asked for food. And then in response, someone set up a pump that jetted out soup at 1000 km an hour. This is GW's book release schedule. I think it's fair to raise an eyebrow at a schedule that went from years without updates to releasing splatbooks and formations at an impossible to keep up with rate. Some of the above posters are acting like there's only two available levels (starvation level or the GW soupmaster 9000 taking your head off.)

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Gingerwerewolf
21-04-2016, 10:23
Its Funny as it NOT what happened

People complained about out of date Codices and ones needing updates. We complained that the 6th ed Knight Codex came out and was made invalid by 7th dropping GW obliged and brought out an up to date codex for Knights.

We then screamed that they were replacing it too quickly and sales of the new codex were rubbish.

GW went - woa - what they tell us they want and we they actually want are two different things.

They want up to date rules in cheaper formats. So they obliged.

Then we screamed that the Supplements and Campaigns confused things, so they brought out the updated supplements to REDUCE the amount of Books that people need.

The new Supplements: Black Legion, Angels of Death, Crimson Slaughter are up to date versions of the old ones with the new Formations that were spread across 3 or 4 different sources. They are ACTIVELY trying to reduce complexity!

They are not firing "Soup" at 1000km an hour. They are taking your feedback that you dont like soup from 4 different places and have combined the recipies into one.

They are doing EXACTLY what you want and you still complain.

Seriously stop freaking complaining, and stop looking for a reason to complain.

Additional

Hint Hint... It might just be that the people complaining before and the ones complaining now are not the same people..... just maybe different groups of people have different opinions that conflict on certain issues :P


If anything GW need to stop listening to people and just do them, since its impossible to please everyone. Since there is no such thing as the universal GW Fan who agrees with all other GW Fans.


GW Need to Stop Listening? I honestly cant believe you just said that!


As for different people? Naaa its the same lot, its people who believe that there is a sweet spot, where when their army is not in that Sweet Spot will complain bitterly because another army came out and got attention.



Getting an updated codex to the current edition, every edition, is what many hope for (and most get).


Having your codex/army updated irregularly over the course of 3+ years with material found in a dozen or more different costly sources -some of which repeat or invalidate each other- is NOT something I imagine anyone hopes for.


I seriously dont know what you want - and I dont think you do either. So instead you just complain.



Yeah I wasn't happy and I'm still not happy, because there is a Goldilocks sweetspot and they missed it


What sweet spot? 1 Codex a Month? 1 Codex a Year? 1 codex every 3.14 months and then interspaced with Supplements using the Golden Ratio?

aprilmanha
21-04-2016, 11:37
GW Need to Stop Listening? I honestly cant believe you just said that!

What sweet spot? 1 Codex a Month? 1 Codex a Year? 1 codex every 3.14 months and then interspaced with Supplements using the Golden Ratio?

GW cannot please everyone, as you said, the sweet spot is different for everyone, so listening to the loudest complainers is resulting in a policy change every few months, from powered down codexes, to over powered codexes, to unnecessary supplements to no supplements, to campaign expansions with 2-3 parts, to a campaign expansion that seems to have had its second half dropped.

They need to pick the ideal path down the middle that they can sustain, and then stick to their guns and go for it. People will complain anyway, so GW need to do what GW wants and do it the best, rather then everything for everyone in a half complete way.

Personally, the sweet spot is 1 new codex every 2 months, meaning the 15ish factions get a new codex every 2-3 years in a 5 year edition cycle.
Then smaller cheap Subfaction supplements every other month for the full five years.
Finally Campaign expansions (apocalypse, planetfall ect) can be spaced over the 5 years with one per year that have something for every faction, or a themed 3-4 factions for each one so everyone has a reason to buy it to.

It sounds like I just described the 3rd/4th/5th editon release cycle :D

A.T.
21-04-2016, 12:16
...so listening to the loudest complainers is resulting in a policy change every few monthsIf they listened to the loudest complainers then CSM would have 50 books and and d-strength bolt pistols1 by now.
(1 discouting the daemon shell strategic asset, which actually was a d-strength bolt pistol)

Their strategy appears to be more along the lines of 'make more of what sells well / what we think will sell well' - such as the big skew towards heresy era marines/admech, the sigmarines, the hatchet job on the smaller fantasy factions, etc.

skorczeny
21-04-2016, 12:46
Its Funny as it NOT what happened

People complained about out of date Codices and ones needing updates. We complained that the 6th ed Knight Codex came out and was made invalid by 7th dropping GW obliged and brought out an up to date codex for Knights.

We then screamed that they were replacing it too quickly and sales of the new codex were rubbish.

GW went - woa - what they tell us they want and we they actually want are two different things.

They want up to date rules in cheaper formats. So they obliged.

Then we screamed that the Supplements and Campaigns confused things, so they brought out the updated supplements to REDUCE the amount of Books that people need.

The new Supplements: Black Legion, Angels of Death, Crimson Slaughter are up to date versions of the old ones with the new Formations that were spread across 3 or 4 different sources. They are ACTIVELY trying to reduce complexity!

They are not firing "Soup" at 1000km an hour. They are taking your feedback that you dont like soup from 4 different places and have combined the recipies into one.

They are doing EXACTLY what you want and you still complain.

Seriously stop freaking complaining, and stop looking for a reason to complain.

Additional



GW Need to Stop Listening? I honestly cant believe you just said that!


As for different people? Naaa its the same lot, its people who believe that there is a sweet spot, where when their army is not in that Sweet Spot will complain bitterly because another army came out and got attention.





I seriously dont know what you want - and I dont think you do either. So instead you just complain.





What sweet spot? 1 Codex a Month? 1 Codex a Year? 1 codex every 3.14 months and then interspaced with Supplements using the Golden Ratio?

Not sure why you feel the need to be so aggressive towards people who disagree with you.

I'm not super up to date with the Tyranid codex, but I think Tyranid players struggle to find all of the rules for the Tyranid model range. Are there one, two, or three books needed?

Me personally, I play Chaos Space Marines. When the next edition of 40k comes out, I would like a CSM codex that is created for that edition. I would NOT like campaign books, dataslates, and supplements that include some new rules and some new units that I am supposed to combine with the old codex to make CSM 'up to date'. Is that clear?

Gingerwerewolf
21-04-2016, 13:04
GW cannot please everyone, as you said, the sweet spot is different for everyone, so listening to the loudest complainers is resulting in a policy change every few months, from powered down codexes, to over powered codexes, to unnecessary supplements to no supplements, to campaign expansions with 2-3 parts, to a campaign expansion that seems to have had its second half dropped.

How can they not listen to the loudest complainers when everyone was complaining about the same thing. Everyone was complaining that the turn around of new rules was too slow. They sped it up.


They need to pick the ideal path down the middle that they can sustain, and then stick to their guns and go for it. People will complain anyway, so GW need to do what GW wants and do it the best, rather then everything for everyone in a half complete way.

I agree but Im saying that the path they are on is the right path - this IS the middle ground - and we're getting what we've screamed that we wanted for the last decade or 2


Personally, the sweet spot is 1 new codex every 2 months, meaning the 15ish factions get a new codex every 2-3 years in a 5 year edition cycle.
Then smaller cheap Subfaction supplements every other month for the full five years.
Finally Campaign expansions (apocalypse, planetfall ect) can be spaced over the 5 years with one per year that have something for every faction, or a themed 3-4 factions for each one so everyone has a reason to buy it to.

It sounds like I just described the 3rd/4th/5th editon release cycle :D

Were you part of the community back then? All GW heard was hate. Thats why they shut down their Forums -The Hate and Vitriol that poured forth from the Internet during that period made them ignore the fans

Gingerwerewolf
21-04-2016, 13:20
Not sure why you feel the need to be so aggressive towards people who disagree with you.

Because all I hear is people bashing GW for everything they do. They can't do anything right. So when I eventually wade in on these Forums it's with a certain amount of history.

Ive been into GW stuff since I was 8 back before RT was released and throughout all that time I've learnt the following: The so called "Fans" do more to ruin the hobby than GW do. All their Demands, their Moaning, and their screaming at how bad something is. Where else do you think that warseer got its name Wineseer from?

This is why I LOVE it when the fans band together and produce something that proves that above sentiment wrong. Battlescribe is one such thing. The Fans keeping Necromunda, Mordheim, Gorkamorka, and Blood Bowl going is another example.


I'm not super up to date with the Tyranid codex, but I think Tyranid players struggle to find all of the rules for the Tyranid model range. Are there one, two, or three books needed?

Me personally, I play Chaos Space Marines. When the next edition of 40k comes out, I would like a CSM codex that is created for that edition. I would NOT like campaign books, dataslates, and supplements that include some new rules and some new units that I am supposed to combine with the old codex to make CSM 'up to date'. Is that clear?

Crystal sir! o7

To be fair we are over at http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/ we do have a forum stickied post called "Where do I find the rules?"

But the main problem with them is that half are in out of date Imperial Armour publications.
The Nids do get their rules from numerous sources, but like the Chaos Space Marines their Supplements will get cleaned up. What was it that Legion got its rules from? 5 or 6 different sorces that are now in 1? GW are already trying to clean up the Supplement / Dataslate / Rule spaghetti that out there.

Dont confuse the wanting a decent core codex (Orks and Nids would certainly join Chaos) with getting a fluff heavy and additional rule Supplement.

Hell Im a BA player, and I want the BA, SW, & DA codecies to be removed and replaced with Codex Space Marine Supplements called Codex Space Marine Supplement: Blood Angel, Codex Space Marine Supplement: Space Wolves and Codex Space Marine Supplement: Dark Angels.

aprilmanha
21-04-2016, 14:22
Were you part of the community back then? All GW heard was hate. Thats why they shut down their Forums -The Hate and Vitriol that poured forth from the Internet during that period made them ignore the fans

I guess I would have been since I have been collecting since 2nd ed :)
GW shutting down the forums was a poor move on their part, but hate and anger is part of the internet in general and needs to be managed properly or just straight up ignored. (And no closing the forums is not the same as ignoring :P)

Like I said, GW will always get hate no matter what they do, but flip flopping about and changing everything all the time will only make the hate worse.

Stick to one way and you will please the group that does like that way and eventually the haters will move on since there is nothing left to do.

Keep changing policy and todays fans are tomorrows haters, all to please yesterday's haters.

Gingerwerewolf
21-04-2016, 14:33
I guess I would have been since I have been collecting since 2nd ed :)
GW shutting down the forums was a poor move on their part, but hate and anger is part of the internet in general and needs to be managed properly or just straight up ignored. (And no closing the forums is not the same as ignoring :P)

Like I said, GW will always get hate no matter what they do, but flip flopping about and changing everything all the time will only make the hate worse.

Stick to one way and you will please the group that does like that way and eventually the haters will move on since there is nothing left to do.

Keep changing policy and todays fans are tomorrows haters, all to please yesterday's haters.

Sorry dude, Ive got to disagree with you there. See the Haters shout so loud that others start to believe them, even if its completely untrue, or over exaggerated. We all shouted for more rules and more constant updates. Not only online but with our wallets.

We all bought the new supplements more than we bought the codecies. What do you sell the guy who has everything for his army? A new way of running his army so that he has to buy more new models. We lapped it up.

I also think that the slow cycles of games rules made the game worse. If your codex came out and was rubbish you had to wait 5 or 6 years to get a new one. So many left because the game was stagnant.

And making Customers leave? No way in hell anyone wants that. They want all the new gamers to spend loads on complete armies and they want us old beardies to shell out on all the new models and even start brand new armies.

As for Yesterdays haters. No they changed the policy for todays gamers, not yesterday's haters. The majority of people wanted more rules, wanted their army more competitive and this gave them that chance.

This is the first time we the fans have ever said, Woah there, slow down! This is NEW.

Basically, what you are insinuating is, you stayed quiet during your time when you thought it was perfect, and let the Haters rule. And its GWs fault that they listened? Next time, when GW are doing something right, how about you go tell them?

aprilmanha
21-04-2016, 14:43
You keep saying WE but I'm not sure which subsection of the GW fans are you referring to?
Obviously you cannot mean ALL GW fans since the different groups (can you even say there are groups?) don't all share the same opinions.

And of course you cannot possibly mean that all GW fans share your opinions, since that would mean you have fallen for the fallacy of self.

And my way of telling GW that they were doing it right was to buy their product and get a job with them.... how do you tell them what was right for you?

dangerboyjim
21-04-2016, 15:02
I don't mind the fact there are other materials than the codex, but I think GW have done this in the most feckless way possible.

A few things about the current model that annoys me

1) Formations seem to follow the pattern: Spam unit, get random special rule. You give players benefits for making less interesting lists. The game suffers as a result.
2) There is no discernible pattern, sometimes it's a supplement, a campaign, a new codex edition, WD article, rules in the box.
3) I don't mind the rate they are banging things out, but when they invalidate one book in little over a year and leave other books hanging for close to a decade, they have their priorities wrong.
4) The 'buy 5 knights at full retail for a special formation' is just awful. Withholding part of the game from people that can't buy £500 worth of knights.
5) The books are absurdly over produced and over priced for what they are.
6) There is no way of picking a faction and just picking up the rules without a lot of work and huge sums of cash.
7) The game is more unbalanced than it has ever been, and formations and the rest of it do not help.


Fortunately I play with a small group of friends and we take it in turns to run campaigns and end up ruling most of the chaff out. Which doesn't say much about the quality of the published game.

Comrade Penguin
21-04-2016, 15:22
@Gingerwerewolf
I was on the Games Workshop forums back in the day, and I can say that you are blowing it way out of proportion. Were there some angry posts? Yeah. But the majority were reasonably calm and many of the discussions were productive. The problem is that GW can't handle any criticism. I would agree at this point they have burnt too many bridges to jump back into the forum scene.

On the topic of supplements, I think the game has really gotten out of control. As a Tyranid player I would need several books/dataslates to use all of models and make a semi-competitive army. I do not feel like carting around ten pounds of books to play a game.

At this point I think the best solution would be for GW to AOS 40k, but in a smart way. Strip away the rules bloat and ensure that units have no more than 2-3 max special rules. Post the rules for free online for all factions and sub-factions so anyone who is interested could study their opponent's factions. There should be no more vehicle/flyer/super-heavy rules, every unit should have a normal unit statline. Vehicles and superheavies should just be normal units with a ton of wounds. Finally make sure units have points and are relatively balanced.

sephiroth87
21-04-2016, 15:40
Because all I hear is people bashing GW for everything they do. They can't do anything right. So when I eventually wade in on these Forums it's with a certain amount of history.

Ive been into GW stuff since I was 8 back before RT was released and throughout all that time I've learnt the following: The so called "Fans" do more to ruin the hobby than GW do. All their Demands, their Moaning, and their screaming at how bad something is. Where else do you think that warseer got its name Wineseer from?

Thanks for wading in. For what it's worth, I've been playing for 25 years. I'd say a lot of us have just as much time in. Your experience gives you no more authority than anyone else. I think my years of being a customer and regular player lend just as much perspective as yours.

Furthermore, you lumping in everyone who disagrees with GW's current direction (or anyone who criticizes GW) as haters does nothing to further the conversation. It's just a cheap ad hominem argument trick that attempts to dismiss any opinion different than yours. If you feel strongly about your position, I can accept that. But you making gross generalizations and name calling just make people dismiss whatever valid points you're attempting to make.



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Gingerwerewolf
22-04-2016, 08:46
Thanks for wading in. For what it's worth, I've been playing for 25 years. I'd say a lot of us have just as much time in. Your experience gives you no more authority than anyone else. I think my years of being a customer and regular player lend just as much perspective as yours.

Furthermore, you lumping in everyone who disagrees with GW's current direction (or anyone who criticizes GW) as haters does nothing to further the conversation. It's just a cheap ad hominem argument trick that attempts to dismiss any opinion different than yours. If you feel strongly about your position, I can accept that. But you making gross generalizations and name calling just make people dismiss whatever valid points you're attempting to make.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

The thing is, I see your point, but seriously take a look at the forums and the internet. The amount of Anti GW sentiment is massively high and the amount of stuff people saying GW Suck for XYZ is just rediculous.

Going on the internet to read about upcoming releases and battle reports is frought with old gamers like us (and I DO lump myself in with the moaners Ive moaned more than a few times myself on here) moaning and complaining.

My point is GW have turned around, and are giving us what we wanted but all we seem to do is moan. We can never be pleased and we never will be. The Predominant attitude online is negative to GW

If by lumping in you mean everyone who signs up here to moan about GW Constantly, then yes Im lumping you all up. Because you outnumber the positive people by a very large ratio.

My point is the posts about and the opinions about GW are nearly ALWAYS negative. No one ever seems to post, yey this is great, well done GW. I dont mean, join the company, though kudos to you if you did - where did you work Aprilmanha? What years?

Also, Im pretty sure that I never called anyone a name other than old beardie - which is someone who I am, and not only do I own a beard (been rocking it for decades) but I am an old git in gaming. It was not meant as an insult as I dont see it as one.

Im not saying that Im right for my opinions, Im arguing that it feels like I am the only one who ever stands up for GW as on warseer its unfashionable to be a pro gw person. If anything your point abotu me being nasty when I most certainly wasnt, is more proof.

People on Warseer hell the internet in general, see people who disagree with them as oppressing them. They read the posts and forum articles and get upset.

I too am guilty of this. But it was not my intention to bully or shout at people - the frustration comes from the fact that I am quite literally getting cheesed off at constantly being labled the bad guy who still stands up for GW, and thus who'se points should be ignored.

And before you say, well you know what the internet is like why do you bother coming onto these forums, Ill counter that with, You know what GW is like, why bother moaning?

A.T.
22-04-2016, 10:35
My point is the posts about and the opinions about GW are nearly ALWAYS negative. No one ever seems to post, yey this is great, well done GW.You need to stay away from the chaos marine threads / threads which have devolved into chaos marine threads.

Aside from those most of the content on the first page of the general discussion forum seems to be gameplay discussion - "what are mechanicus like", "should I buy this necron army", "what can I proxy this ork model for", etc.


What do you personally consider a positive post?

Latro_
22-04-2016, 11:04
The thread was not intended to bash GW, it was asking if 'Is the increase in supplements starting to hurt your brain?'. Yes this is hinged on what actions GW have taken in the past to foster the opinion one way or the other... mostly people seem to think it is a problem for them, that's a valid opinion.

If the predominant sentiment about GW is bad (which i dont think it is, people on the internet generally moan and dont praise unless the praise benefits them) then that tells you a couple of things:
Is it the same on other companies forums, privateer press? mantic? if not then why not... chances are there are some valid reasons for the negativity if it out weights those of other companies.
Probably the main reason is we all love 40k and GW products in the main, they are a big company, we still play any buy so being upset is a sign of love not hate... Its like your family might annoy the hell out of you at times and moan about them, you still love em and they now it... ye dont have to tell them all the time.

williamsond
22-04-2016, 11:06
I would much prefer it if GW once a year just released a compendium and had done with it, that way you could at least get every thing in one place (like they used to do with rogue trader and all the white dwarf articles).

Bloodknight
22-04-2016, 11:20
if not then why not.

Never underestimate the underdog bonus and scale. It's way easier to communicate with 1500 customers than 15.000 (random numbers).

Also, and that has been my personal experience over the years in different systems and different genres: gamers tend to be an entitled bunch. P&P RPGers even more so than tabletoppers, because they're often tight-fisted, too. You know the type: "I bought a 10-dollar-book 15 years ago, they owe me." I've got friends in that industry and it's even more cut-throat than tabletops. The customers often even seem top begrudge the authors the dirt under their nails, as if they were supposed to produce and hand out entertainment for free. There's hardly any money to be made in the RPG business for published writers, most can't even afford a decent car, even less than the gold-dust-laced coke that authors and publishers allegedly snort. *shrug* Personally, I think that some people seem to believe that the creatives in the business spend 10 hours a day giggling and wondering how they could annoy their customers some more. They don't. They work for a living. They try to make the best product they can. They want happy customers and sell fun, after all, not chocolates filled with mustard gas.

As you can see in my signature, I work on a campaign layer for BattleTech. The worst thing I've ever done was a survey with my players and then activating what they wanted. I told them that it wouldn't be great (after all, I had access to a ton of data that they didn't have and several years of experience in the environment), but well. So I ticked a lot of boxes; when the players realized that, surprisingly, I had put actually some thought into the environment beforehand and their suggestions ended up being a terrible experience, I even got the blame for it. Seriously, I'm glad I'm not in the creative part of the business :).

Disclaimer: this is all my entirely personal opinion and I'm not excluding myself, I've been guilty of this, too.

blackcherry
22-04-2016, 12:12
If the predominant sentiment about GW is bad (which i dont think it is, people on the internet generally moan and dont praise unless the praise benefits them) then that tells you a couple of things:
Is it the same on other companies forums, privateer press? mantic? if not then why not... chances are there are some valid reasons for the negativity if it out weights those of other companies.
Probably the main reason is we all love 40k and GW products in the main, they are a big company, we still play any buy so being upset is a sign of love not hate... Its like your family might annoy the hell out of you at times and moan about them, you still love em and they now it... ye dont have to tell them all the time.

There is that. But also, the smaller companies are more able to pivot and change than one as large as GW.

Though that hasn't stopped Mantic and PP from deleting threads that don't fall in line with what they want of a forum. Which is their right (it's their forums after all) but it does show something interesting.

The smaller companies aspire to be GW in attitude. They just know they have to be better at spinning it than GW has.

Comrade Penguin
22-04-2016, 14:31
My point is GW have turned around, and are giving us what we wanted but all we seem to do is moan. We can never be pleased and we never will be.



I really wish you would stop making this blanket statement. Clearly GW is not giving many players what they want, as can be seen by 40k being knocked from the top table game for Xwing.

I and many others never wanted superheavies in our normal games.

I never wanted broken formations that reward copy and pasting units with absolutely zero drawbacks.

I never wanted the rules for my faction to be split into multiple expensive books and dataslates.

I suspect many other players agree with me. So no we are not complaining that GW has finally given us what we wanted. We are complaining because GW has unnecessarily muddied the game.

duffybear1988
22-04-2016, 15:31
I'm still waiting for a decent Sisters of Battle codex. Pretty sure that's been on the wish list of every GW fanboy since 5th edition. Guess what? We're all still waiting, so maybe GW isn't delivering what we want.

toonboy78
22-04-2016, 15:36
I and many others never wanted superheavies in our normal games.



you don't HAVE to have them in your game




I never wanted broken formations that reward copy and pasting units with absolutely zero drawbacks.



you don't HAVE to have them in your game




I never wanted the rules for my faction to be split into multiple expensive books and dataslates.



I agree this is a bit of a pain, but they do generally, eventually bundle them together in one place

Comrade Penguin
22-04-2016, 15:56
you don't HAVE to have them in your game



But what if my opponent does?

Do we get into a debate and argue until one of us consents? Do I refuse to play that opponent meaning I could go home without playing a game? Do I suck it up and play against the superheavy/formation knowing that I will not have a good time?

Your solution is not a solution.

Lord Damocles
22-04-2016, 16:01
What if your opponent wants to play Imperial Guard Astra Militarum and you don't want to play them?

Comrade Penguin
22-04-2016, 16:50
What if your opponent wants to play Imperial Guard Astra Militarum and you don't want to play them?

I guess I would have to suck it up and play them or risk not getting a game in. But I have never had any issue playing against an opponent's army, even when 5th edition Grey Knights were stomping the boards and insta-killing my tyranids with impunity.

But toonboy78's point was that I don't have to have formations or superheavies in my game. But he failed the recognize the wishes of my opponent. This was in response to me saying that I and many other gamers never wanted superheavies and formations in our normal 40k.

Latro_
22-04-2016, 16:52
To be honest this is an issue but is PUAP still a big thing these days with the Internet? Our wargames club has a facebook group every game is easily organised and its a simple 'dont fancy super heavies' or 'fancy doing this' or 'how many pts' etc etc
Tournaments are tournaments... its a scene unto its self.

toonboy78
22-04-2016, 17:04
I guess I would have to suck it up and play them or risk not getting a game in. But I have never had any issue playing against an opponent's army, even when 5th edition Grey Knights were stomping the boards and insta-killing my tyranids with impunity.

But toonboy78's point was that I don't have to have formations or superheavies in my game. But he failed the recognize the wishes of my opponent. This was in response to me saying that I and many other gamers never wanted superheavies and formations in our normal 40k.

my point it superheavies, flyers, mysterious terrain, mission are as much of a discussion as size of game, and what each side will bring.

you may not like something, discuss it and see if you can compromise. if not play 2 games one with and one without.

you may need to re think your army if the local meta has changed to adapt to it.

my marines have been through numerous iterations since the end of 4th edition as new armies, updated codex and new players have faced them.

i have never walked away from a game and when beaten always wanted to come back to beat them. it took me 6-7 games before i could beat a nid list but i eventually did.

insectum7
22-04-2016, 20:13
you may need to re think your army if the local meta has changed to adapt to it.

my marines have been through numerous iterations since the end of 4th edition as new armies, updated codex and new players have faced them.

i have never walked away from a game and when beaten always wanted to come back to beat them. it took me 6-7 games before i could beat a nid list but i eventually did.

This is also how I operate, but

Marines are also the poster army for 40K, and get a lot of attention. This means that over the years they have gathered a huge array of flexibility and capability that some other armies just don't have. Even if marines are not considered the absolute top codex, it's basically always strong enough to contend with the vast majority of what can be thrown at it. If you play a codex that is less robust, and hasn't been updated into the Formaiton format, your options can be more limited. Allies is an easy fix, but not necessarily one that people want to do. People want to contend with the army of their choice, which is understandable. If I played DE, sure I could ally with Eldar, but do I really want to? (And also pay the cost for another codex).

Comrade Penguin
22-04-2016, 21:30
my point it superheavies, flyers, mysterious terrain, mission are as much of a discussion as size of game, and what each side will bring.

you may not like something, discuss it and see if you can compromise. if not play 2 games one with and one without.

you may need to re think your army if the local meta has changed to adapt to it.

my marines have been through numerous iterations since the end of 4th edition as new armies, updated codex and new players have faced them.

i have never walked away from a game and when beaten always wanted to come back to beat them. it took me 6-7 games before i could beat a nid list but i eventually did.

I wish I had the luxury to play two games in a row, but there is no way I could swing that. If I show up for a game, it is after work so I have time for one game before the shop closes. So I need to make sure that game counts and I am not wasting my time flailing uselessly at wraithknights.

What insectum7 stated above is pretty spot on. Marines have access to drop pods full of grav/melta weapons. You can possibly get free vehicles if you take that one formation. Worst case you can ally in Imperial Knights or IG Wyverns. You have the tools to deal with a changing meta, but many other armies do not have this luxury. My guess is you have never seen a hive tyrant bounce harmlessly off of a Knight before getting stomped into the dirt..

skorczeny
22-04-2016, 22:11
Seems like this thread is headed down well tread path. The explosion of content... supplements, leading up to knights, titans, formations, etc... has divided the community b/c some like it, some don't. Some can work around it, some can't/won't. This leads to confusion about games, and the end result is that fewer games are played.

This is bad for GW. It's in their best interest to develop a healthy community that easily engages in playing games. More games, more purchases, more money for GW. Adopting a laissez faire approach to balance/content/organizing games has made getting games more challenging, not less challenging.

Overall, more content for more armies is good. But GW has not done a great job of introducing new content in a manner that is easily digestible by the community. Is it the end of the world? No. GW could do better, though. Perhaps they are doing better now, but it'll take some time to see if the current direction is consistent.

DYoung
22-04-2016, 22:17
Seems like this thread is headed down well tread path. The explosion of content... supplements, leading up to knights, titans, formations, etc... has divided the community b/c some like it, some don't. Some can work around it, some can't/won't. This leads to confusion about games, and the end result is that fewer games are played.

This is bad for GW. It's in their best interest to develop a healthy community that easily engages in playing games. More games, more purchases, more money for GW. Adopting a laissez faire approach to balance/content/organizing games has made getting games more challenging, not less challenging.

Overall, more content for more armies is good. But GW has not done a great job of introducing new content in a manner that is easily digestible by the community. Is it the end of the world? No. GW could do better, though. Perhaps they are doing better now, but it'll take some time to see if the current direction is consistent.

Can we please sticky this?

ColShaw
22-04-2016, 23:34
Well put, skorczeny.

ObiWayneKenobi
24-04-2016, 01:17
The big problem is they keep putting out various things without care so it just adds to the bloat this hurts new players or returning players who don't know where to begin where are faced with hundreds of dollars in just the rule books. It also hurts existing players because it feels like they are just piling on the crap without Rhyme or Reason. I have not played the game in many years but it still Springs to mind every so often. One of the biggest detriment to my playing the game again is the umpteen supplements that exists at varying power levels. At some point they need to consolidate or risk the Game collapsing under its own weight there does not have to be a new $50 supplement every month or so that adds a handful of new formations and that's it and the same fluff that has essentially existed for 20 years.

The sheer number of supplements makes this game unapproachable for anyone who doesn't want to just buy the books to put on a shelf somewhere and that's before even getting into the prices of the models which I will not say further because this is not the appropriate threat but we all know about it. Someone thinking of getting into the game or coming back after let's say about 15 years or so is going to see all these supplements and see where the heck do I begin? Do I need all of these?

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Lord Damocles
24-04-2016, 18:01
Someone thinking of getting into the game or coming back after let's say about 15 years or so is going to see all these supplements and see where the heck do I begin? Do I need all of these?
And of course, they absolutely don't need all of those supplements! - Just like in previous editions where there were loads of Codexes, variant lists, campaign books, battlezone rules, adversary rules, Chapter Approved compendiums, White Dwarf rules etc..

ObiWayneKenobi
24-04-2016, 18:30
And of course, they absolutely don't need all of those supplements! - Just like in previous editions where there were loads of Codexes, variant lists, campaign books, battlezone rules, adversary rules, Chapter Approved compendiums, White Dwarf rules etc..

They still are overwhelming though. Especially with each new one adding a bunch of new things of varying power levels.

WarsmithGarathor94
25-04-2016, 15:54
@obi
Speaking as a chaos player the supplements havent changed a thing for me and as a space marine player il just get the cards not the supplement

Rogue Star
26-04-2016, 17:12
And now comes "Death from the Skies".

Latro_
26-04-2016, 17:21
:D good time to start the thread... now they are supplementing the core rules XD.

There inst gonna be a 8th edition, just new 'rules supplements' the sky is falling!!! ;)

Next up it'll be: CODES OF WAR
All the universal special rules re-written for each race to better represent that race's combat doctrine! There will be 10 different versions of infiltrate, tubo boost, melta, rending, etc...
Go on, say it couldn't happen then realise it could :D

Treadhead_1st
26-04-2016, 20:26
:D good time to start the thread... now they are supplementing the core rules XD.

There inst gonna be a 8th edition, just new 'rules supplements' the sky is falling!!! ;)

Next up it'll be: CODES OF WAR
All the universal special rules re-written for each race to better represent that race's combat doctrine! There will be 10 different versions of infiltrate, tubo boost, melta, rending, etc...
Go on, say it couldn't happen then realise it could :D

Eh, they did it before with...Death from the Skies back in 2013. "Core rules supplements" are definitely not a new thing.

After all there's been Apocalypse (various), Codex Battlezone: Cityfight, Cities of Death, Planetstrike, Spearhead, Death from the Skies, Stronghold Assault, Escalation and arguably Planetary Empires and Battle Missions too.

Freman Bloodglaive
27-04-2016, 06:08
I'm not convinced that there is a "Master plan" beyond "BUY OUR MODELS".

They've certainly shown with 6th (the rules) and 7th (slightly better rules, but making points irrelevant) Ed 40k, and with AoS (what rules) a complete disregard for making games that are in any way balanced.

I, and most of my friends want a game you can just play out of the box, we're busy, working people, we only have 2-3 hours of gaming a week. We all have neither the time, nor the inclination to go through house ruling what we should and shouldn't take in the name of "balance", nor play a game of "gotcha" because one side has a bunch of special rules for no point cost and no apparent reason.

No one I know is buying anything from GW at the moment.

Malifaux. It plays out of the box, and it's fairly well balanced.

Russell's teapot
27-04-2016, 08:43
Malifaux. It plays out of the box, and it's fairly well balanced.

Ooooh, and the rules are free now. TYVM.

Freman Bloodglaive
28-04-2016, 07:16
Ooooh, and the rules are free now. TYVM.

The thing I found most refreshing playing it was that you spend more time fighting your opponent, and less time fighting the rules. The basic rules are very simple, how your characters interact with the rules is complex but everything they do is written on their card and their upgrade cards. Certainly that can create a bit of a learning curve, one of my favourite current masters is Jack Daw, and he is hugely interactive with his crew, while other masters like Leveticus really just kill things, and leave their crew to sort out any other schemes and strategies that need to be done, but the curve is more about remembering what each model does and speeding up your game rather than "oops, I forgot obscure rule from page 836". A typical 50 point game has six to ten models, so a couple of master boxes from the same faction and a couple of single boxes can give a huge range of crew options. Of course 40k is really about six to ten models, the leader and the models with special weapons, Malifaux just gets rid of the ablative wounds you have to buy and paint.