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Night Bearer
15-04-2016, 20:36
Wasn't sure if I should threadjack the other GSC thread, so apologies if this seems like a duplicate.

I'm working on both SM/IG armies that are set in the 37th millennium. No terribly pressing reason other than I kinda wanted to avoid the more "current" background stuff like Damocles, Necron wars, Tyranid invasions, etc. Not that I completely dislike them, and I may regret not having any real opportunity for Tyranids in my background, but I did want to include GSCs.

Is there any wiggle room for bringing Genestealer Cults into the earlier millennia? What if it was done in a "wink wink" sorta way where the Imperial POV doesn't comprehend exactly what they are, but the details allude to an enemy force being a GSC in all but name?

Am I just stuck with having to move everything forward to the 41st millennium if I want to include them at all? I know Ymgarl is the earliest recording of Genestealers, and Ghosar (Deathwatch Overkill) represents the first encounter with a GSC, but are those also hard limits for the very first Genestealers to arrive in the galaxy and the first cult to arise from them?

MajorWesJanson
15-04-2016, 20:46
Go for it and if it comes up, records were confused or lost. Just like how the Necrons were around here and there before sanctuary 101.

Iron_Lord
17-04-2016, 19:00
Not to mention that there's evidence in various editions of the Tyranid Codex of Tyranid incursions into the galaxy thousands of years before Hive Fleet Behemoth. Not a huge step, to have Genestealer Cults preceding those incursions.

Keep
17-04-2016, 20:26
a GSC could easily pass as mutants influenced by chaos if there is no closer investigation done.

memitchell747
18-04-2016, 08:43
So, "wink wink." That kind of throws overboard a bunch of narrative about discovery of GSC, and Tyranids. Not that any of it is really compelling. The Tyranid lore is fairly slapdash as it evolved as the army was codified, and then re-done. Went from Zoats and Mind Slaves to Flyrants. GSC was kind of fluid, too. Plus, Genestealers have a sketchy history from versions of Space Hulk and Advanced Space Crusade to Chaos-infused Cults. Apparently, Space Hulks infested with Genestealers have been around a long time. Long before the Tyranid Hive Fleets (which are really qute recent). The only thing that nails down the advent of GSC is the claim in Deathwatch that Ghosar was the first encounter with one. And, even that is fluid. The Ghosar cult is associated with the crash of part of a Space Hulk a full 1500 years before the DW encountered them (and even that encounter happened in stages). To tell the truth, trying to conform to the "official" timeline is challenging.

ntw3001
18-04-2016, 08:56
Everything was genestealer cults the whole time

Sent from my SC-05G using Tapatalk

fluxdeluxe
18-04-2016, 11:42
Genestealers were encountered as early as M35. Since the hive fleets were woken by the Pharos in M30 it makes sense that some forward elements of the hive fleets would hit at some point a few thousand years later

Gdolkin
18-04-2016, 11:54
Since the hive fleets were woken by the Pharos in M30
Citation please?

fluxdeluxe
18-04-2016, 12:21
Citation please?

From the Pharos dying of the light Horus Heresy book 34. Last page

this matches up with the first engagement of the second tyrannic war where sotha was consumed completely by a splinter of hive fleet kraken

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Pharos_%28Device%29

(http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Pharos_%28Device%29)Even tendrils of Behemoth from the first tyrannic war look to have been drawn towards the same sectors of the eastern fringe, it's just macragge was in the way as the hive fleets approached from the galactic south east unlike Kraken which approached from the galactic east.

What is also unusual is that the hive fleet evidently completely destroyed the world and left it as rubble rather than stripping the biomass and leaving a dead husk in the void.

Iron_Lord
18-04-2016, 14:34
If you go by the later Cain books (The Last Ditch, The Greater Good) there have been Tyranids frozen into the ice of the planet Nusquam Fundumentibus for millions of years.

Suggesting that while the Pharos event drew the hive fleets - it's not the first time hive fleets have hit the galaxy.

fluxdeluxe
18-04-2016, 15:29
If you go by the later Cain books (The Last Ditch, The Greater Good) there have been Tyranids frozen into the ice of the planet Nusquam Fundumentibus for millions of years.

Suggesting that while the Pharos event drew the hive fleets - it's not the first time hive fleets have hit the galaxy.]#

Indeed although the planet itself could have been an extra solar capture

Night Bearer
22-04-2016, 18:25
Thanks for the replies, everyone!

Ultimately, nothing I write is canon anyways, but I want it to at least be believable, so it sounds like my idea of hinting at GSCs prior to the official timelines won't be so bad.

As a random thought, I really wish there was a way to revive Necromunda with a focus on GSC, Chaos Cults, Arbites, and similar type "lesser" forces. I really love the old RT-era feel of how "local" a lot of the battles felt like in the fluff, compared to how campaign or galaxy-wide or existentially-threatening most things are in the modern background.

Gdolkin
24-04-2016, 19:25
As a random thought, I really wish there was a way to revive Necromunda with a focus on GSC, Chaos Cults, Arbites, and similar type "lesser" forces. I really love the old RT-era feel of how "local" a lot of the battles felt like in the fluff, compared to how campaign or galaxy-wide or existentially-threatening most things are in the modern background.
Hell yeah this. I've found my digging out my old Delaque and eyeing up the new hybrids to be somehow connected..

kilkrazy
25-04-2016, 16:55
If you go by the later Cain books (The Last Ditch, The Greater Good) there have been Tyranids frozen into the ice of the planet Nusquam Fundumentibus for millions of years.

Suggesting that while the Pharos event drew the hive fleets - it's not the first time hive fleets have hit the galaxy.

Pharos drew the current hive. Nice to know Im not the only one that thought they had been here before.
Explains why the necrons scorched the earth. Theyre mostly to the galactic SW. Eldar think theyre great, when they were like the Tau at the time.

memitchell747
26-04-2016, 16:15
Hell yeah this. I've found my digging out my old Delaque and eyeing up the new hybrids to be somehow connected..
It's called Male Pattern Baldness. A current scourge still plaguing mankind (and hybridkind) 38,000 years from now.

Keep
29-04-2016, 20:54
As a random thought, I really wish there was a way to revive Necromunda with a focus on GSC, Chaos Cults, Arbites, and similar type "lesser" forces. I really love the old RT-era feel of how "local" a lot of the battles felt like in the fluff, compared to how campaign or galaxy-wide or existentially-threatening most things are in the modern background.
It's not like this is gone in the background - BL just like to write about the galaxy stuff these days, because a petty local conflict wouldn't justify bolter porn :/

blackcherry
02-05-2016, 19:16
That stuff always was the minority with BL to be fair.

memitchell747
15-05-2016, 19:36
It's the excess of excess. Why write about a gang turf war when you can write about intergalactic conflict. Of course, when EVERYTHING is all-important, NOTHING is. Having said that, the Necromunda novels are not bad. Lots of (bad) atmosphere.

Sandalphon
16-05-2016, 08:39
I think the best thing to remember in Warhammer 40K fiction is this, "there is no canon" everything written comes from biased sources and unreliable narrators, predominantly Imperial sources that can't be considered "the whole truth." I loved old RT fluff myself, and even the stories in Space Hulk about Genestealers don't hold up to "modern" interpretations of 40K background. To the OP write what you want. We are, after all, talking about a Galaxy wide empire that in universe has departments that exist within the bureaucracy to service planets and functions that no longer exist, all because they haven't caught up with all the paperwork. :D

Lord Damocles
16-05-2016, 09:21
"there is no canon"
Yeah there is.

The fact that we all know what a Genestealer is, what happened on Ymarl, who Cassius is, how genestealer cults operate, etc. etc. shows that the absolutely is a canon.

Now that canon might change over time (retcons or advancements), it might not always be consistent (errors), or the source of the information we're presented with might not be reliable (in-universe as opposed to omniscient narrator), but that doesn't alter the fact that there is a canon.

memitchell747
16-05-2016, 17:14
More than one factor at work. First, for better or worse, 40k canon evolves. Just ask the Zoats and Squats. Then, authors of 40K books, short stories, and background pieces in codices and magazines take literary license with the canon. The short story "Deathwing" defines the shape of a Genestealer Cult for decades. But, other authors change some parameters. Look no further than the Cult in Deathwatch, with its new to the Cult canon Broodlord and Primus and Abberents. In my exalted literary opinion, how it is said is more important than what is said. I'd rather read a well-written story that deviates from canon, than a poorly written story that sticks to the canon.

Elbows of Death
08-06-2016, 21:35
There have been numerous times in the Imperium's past where the Inquisition cleansed entire human worlds when mutations were detected. It is perfectly plausible that prior to the invasion of Tyran and the discovery proper of the "Tyranids" that a planet or system was home to a Genestealer Cult ---- mistaken for simple mutants or genetic mutations, and subsequently cleansed with no further investigation/knowledge. Perfectly plausible in my opinion. Another option is to base your 40K experience on the outer fringes/edges of Imperium patrolled space.

A properly successful Genestealer Cult could easily manipulate Astropaths or cut a planet/system off from communications --- keeping its presence hidden.

Razios
09-06-2016, 03:10
There have been numerous times in the Imperium's past where the Inquisition cleansed entire human worlds when mutations were detected. It is perfectly plausible that prior to the invasion of Tyran and the discovery proper of the "Tyranids" that a planet or system was home to a Genestealer Cult ---- mistaken for simple mutants or genetic mutations, and subsequently cleansed with no further investigation/knowledge. Perfectly plausible in my opinion. Another option is to base your 40K experience on the outer fringes/edges of Imperium patrolled space.

A properly successful Genestealer Cult could easily manipulate Astropaths or cut a planet/system off from communications --- keeping its presence hidden.

Or they have encounter before but never conect the dots until very latter, havng cult is one thing, that those cult as part of FREAKING HUGE wake of alien that come out of nowhere?...yeah

memitchell747
19-06-2016, 01:44
White Dwarf 124 is mostly abut Lost Patrol. But has an extensive article on the 40K game history of Genestealers and Cult. Not all the full fluff, but how they got started and evolved with different games and codices.

carlisimo
20-06-2016, 19:28
If you go by the later Cain books (The Last Ditch, The Greater Good) there have been Tyranids frozen into the ice of the planet Nusquam Fundumentibus for millions of years.

Suggesting that while the Pharos event drew the hive fleets - it's not the first time hive fleets have hit the galaxy.

The Last Ditch was about a Tyranid ship that hit the planet 7,000 years ago. I don't remember the details in the Greater Good, though. Still after Pharos, but early enough for OP's idea to work.

memitchell747
23-06-2016, 17:35
Wasn't sure if I should threadjack the other GSC thread, so apologies if this seems like a duplicate.

I'm working on both SM/IG armies that are set in the 37th millennium. No terribly pressing reason other than I kinda wanted to avoid the more "current" background stuff like Damocles, Necron wars, Tyranid invasions, etc. Not that I completely dislike them, and I may regret not having any real opportunity for Tyranids in my background, but I did want to include GSCs.

Is there any wiggle room for bringing Genestealer Cults into the earlier millennia? What if it was done in a "wink wink" sorta way where the Imperial POV doesn't comprehend exactly what they are, but the details allude to an enemy force being a GSC in all but name?

Am I just stuck with having to move everything forward to the 41st millennium if I want to include them at all? I know Ymgarl is the earliest recording of Genestealers, and Ghosar (Deathwatch Overkill) represents the first encounter with a GSC, but are those also hard limits for the very first Genestealers to arrive in the galaxy and the first cult to arise from them?the

The latest rumor is following on the success of Deathwatch:Overkill, there will be a Genestealer Cult Codex this year. No idea for sure if the new 'dex will follow up on the new GSC background of DW:OK (first GSC contacted by the Imperium, around 500 years before current time, probably started with a crash on the mining asteroid by part of an infected Space Hulk 1500 years before that). In any case. as the first official 40K GSC rules since a few pages in the back of the 40K 2nd Edition Tyranid Codex, there is a possibility this could codify the official history of the GSC. Or, just focus on this Cult, and offer the usual general nonsense about how anything else is possible, etc.