PDA

View Full Version : What are the internal problems in codex _____?



Zustiur
16-04-2016, 13:03
As the title says. What's are the internal issues in your codex? I don't care how terrible you are in comparison to scatter bikes, I just want to know what the issues are in each codex when looked at individually.

This can be balance issues, things that need FAQs, things that need errata, things that don't fit the fluff, etc etc etc etc

Chevron_Locked
16-04-2016, 20:06
Codex Craftworlds: I really wanted to see more distinction buildwise between the different craftworlds. Something not too disimilar to SM chapter tactics would have been cool so something along the lines of...Biel Tan got some buffs for assault... Alaitoc would have some stealthy buffs... Ulthwe something with powers etc. I know CWE have a lot of good stuff but some flavouring is always nice :) other than that I'd like pathfinders back....

insectum7
16-04-2016, 23:58
It's hard to take a heavy weapon other than a Grav Cannon, even closing in on twice the cost for a Lascannon.

The flip side is that it makes Tactical Squads fiercely competitive, so my feelings about the G-Cannons overall are complicated.

Kakapo42
17-04-2016, 01:38
Tau:

There aren't actually a lot of internal problems here. The 6th edition codex put the Tau in a pretty good place rules-wise. There are however two big ones I can think of off the top of my head.

1) Background. Too much grimdark shenanigans going on, and that stupid retcon about Tau FTL travel. Bring the background back to how it was with the 3rd edition codex and problem gets fixed very quickly though. There's also annoying amounts of metaplot, but that's really the fault of the last two Damocles books, not the codex.

2) Battlesuits. The current Tau army list puts way too much emphasis on battlesuits, especially large battlesuits. This is especially annoying for me since I'm a Tau player that ranks battlesuits very low of my list of appeals the Tau have (grav-tanks and infantry FTW). My deep dark wish would be to simply delete the offending giant battlesuits, since the latest ones are kind of ridiculous (I don't care how many extra drone-carried stealth generators you give it, you just can't make something that big stealthy, it'd make too much noise as it stomps and crashes about), but I get that a lot of other people like them so that isn't really an option.

Instead a more realistic approach to me seems to be some minor improvements to the non-battlesuit elements. Bringing back vehicle-mounted multitrackers and target-locks, giving Kroot Strength 4 again, giving Vespid... something, and maybe fiddling with the points of infantry and fliers a little big (though that's a very big maybe, since it seems to me that they're in the place of 'not actually bad, just overshadowed by those damn battlesuits') would all go a long way towards making the non-battlesuit units more viable alternatives in the eyes of many, I think.

Also while I'm at it do something about the heavy rail-rifle. Either make it Heavy 2, S9 or give it Armourbane but do SOMETHING with it.

Sisters of Battle:

The main problem with the codex is obvious: it's electronic. I don't own an e-reader, and I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on one just to read one e-book (which is all I'd ever realistically use it for). Put out a physical version and... well it still wouldn't be the best codex ever, it would at least give me something to use.

Aside from that there seem to be a few issues, and I have my thinking on how to fix them, but I think I'll leave that for another time.

Cybtroll
17-04-2016, 10:16
The Dark Angel Deathwing cannot fight on its own. That's ********. The previous codex was surely worst, but at least allows to use it fluffy - wise.

Leogun_91
17-04-2016, 12:58
Daemons:
Nothing fits the fluff: From Plaguebearers only use being sitting on an objective to Bloodletters only being good against MEQ to Bloodthirsters being deathly afraid of forceweapons pretty much nothing in the book fits the fluff at all.
Psychic Powers:Tzeentch is bad, Slaanesh decent and Nurgle pretty good, none is even close to Malevolent Daemonology which you tend to use as much as possible with the army. They need to be balanced against each other.
Troops are too specialized: Leaving us with Heavy and HQ as our only all-comer options. This makes mono-god or otherwised themed lists harder to play since you are likely to miss an important role and overspend in another.
Greater Daemons are not close to their fluff-threat level: They should be buffed up annd become Lord of War choices. Fluffwise they are close to the most dangerous thing out there in the Galaxy, that should be represented.

Officio Assassinarum:
Culexus is a better fighter than Eversor, not just against Psykers There is no reason to take the Eversor unless you really like it. The Culexus is just superior.

MajorWesJanson
17-04-2016, 13:08
Orks: lack of customization options. No ways to get Invul saves, limited FNP, limited special and melee weapon options, certain units lacking upgrade options or overpaying for the same options. Also a number of random drawbacks without benefits to make up for them.

Dark Eldar: Survivability vs Damage output. Too much glass, not enough cannon.

Daemons: Too much randomness. Appropriate to the fluff, but random gifts, random powers, random warp storm, all adds up to massive bookkeeping for marginal benefit.

Eldar: costs for benefits are out of wack. So many free buffs or stat improvements that aren't paid for in points like everyone else.

Space Marines: Grav weapons are too strong, affecting the meta, and formation benefits are generally too strong, especially battle company.

Skitarii/Cult Mech/Knights: 3 books that need to be merged into one, and given fliers and transport vehicles.

Harlequins: Limited army construction options. Their custom FoC is way too rigid, and the smaller formations have too many requirements to make them flexible, like jetbikes needed all over, or basic squads with a transport unable to take upgrade characters. Adding a Great Harlequin as a HQ slot would at least let you use a Combined Arms or Allied detachment, but as it is, you can't.

Tyranids- need a major rethink. MCs and midrange creatures lack durability for their size/cost respectively, and the gribblies are too expensive, not swarmy enough for their fluff. FMCs are have some overly strong options, making them overvaluable in the list.

Chilled out Charlie
17-04-2016, 14:27
Space Wolves: Would love to have some competitive builds other than thunder wolf spam (I do love thunderwolves though).

Bloodclaws should be better than they are (WS and BS 4 as with other chapters new recruits for example).

I know this next point is comparing to the space marine codex but it's kind of relevant, our dreadnought should have a base attacks characteristic of 4!

Give me a reason to take space wolf scouts again! I have 2 nicely painted squads that don't see the table!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MajorWesJanson
17-04-2016, 15:10
I know this next point is comparing to the space marine codex but it's kind of relevant, our dreadnought should have a base attacks characteristic of 4!


So should Deff Dreads and Helbrutes as well.

Beppo1234
17-04-2016, 15:50
The Dark Angel Deathwing cannot fight on its own. That's ********. The previous codex was surely worst, but at least allows to use it fluffy - wise.

I don't think it should apply to the DW Formation (as formations should be used in congress with something else), but I do agree with you about the DW Strikeforce. I could really use an FAQ/Errata adds this to its deployment rule: '... or deploy as normal'

I think all formations/detachments should have a 'deploy as normal' caveat attached.

Beppo1234
17-04-2016, 15:52
Bloodclaws should be better than they are (WS and BS 4 as with other chapters new recruits for example).



I was under the impression that SWs didn't really do the scout/training thing, and just dumped their raw recruits into Blood Claw squads resulting in lower stats... and their scouts being more elite.

Chilled out Charlie
17-04-2016, 16:02
I was under the impression that SWs didn't really do the scout/training thing, and just dumped their raw recruits into Blood Claw squads resulting in lower stats... and their scouts being more elite.

They all wear power armour, power armour is valuable hence I doubt very much that absolutely no training is provided to Bloodclaws (I think you have to be trained to use power armour initially anyway?), also I think it mentions somewhere that wolf priests are responsible for training new recruits as well. Don't have my books with me so can't check.

I can understand why you came to that conclusion though as GW do seem to portray the space wolves as tactically deficient idiots.

In the 90s the Bloodclaws were just hot headed space marines which is why I liked them. They were WS5 back then if I recall correctly. I try and pretend the 90s portrayal of them is correct rather than this "punk Viking Wolfy mc wolfington" look and feel they have now. (Don't get me started on the wulfen).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Beppo1234
17-04-2016, 16:18
They all wear power armour, power armour is valuable hence I doubt very much that absolutely no training is provided to Bloodclaws (I think you have to be trained to use power armour initially anyway?), also I think it mentions somewhere that wolf priests are responsible for training new recruits as well. Don't have my books with me so can't check.

I can understand why you came to that conclusion though as GW do seem to portray the space wolves as tactically deficient idiots.

In the 90s the Bloodclaws were just hot headed space marines which is why I liked them. They were WS5 back then if I recall correctly. I try and pretend the 90s portrayal of them is correct rather than this "punk Viking Wolfy mc wolfington" look and feel they have now. (Don't get me started on the wulfen).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


see from back in the day, Wolf scouts were elites and blood claws were the fresh recruits straight into power armor > resulting in the hot heads and lower skill levels. At least that's how I remember it.... today's fluff is all over the place for every faction, and I don't know what to follow anymore.

Chilled out Charlie
17-04-2016, 16:40
see from back in the day, Wolf scouts were elites and blood claws were the fresh recruits straight into power armor > resulting in the hot heads and lower skill levels. At least that's how I remember it.... today's fluff is all over the place for every faction, and I don't know what to follow anymore.

Sorry haven't explained myself at all well. You are right in the elites/recruits split that is still the case but actually you now have a situation where wolf scouts (elites) are the same level as normal space marine scouts.

What I meant in terms of the blood claws was that they were still tactically astute space marines and they didn't just blindly run in to any situation and get slaughtered as they now do. They has ws5 and bs3 iirc whilst space marines were ws4 and bs4.

Anyway I've derailed the thread and I apologise! Back on topic I agree with the comments on deff dreads and hellbrute attack characteristic as this will help internal balance too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Zustiur
18-04-2016, 05:47
While it's not strictly what I asked for I'll accept the scout and dreadnought cross codex comparisons.

My reason for starting this thread is to get data for my 7th Ed rewrite. Inter codex balance is important too but I don't want the thread detailed by a million comparisons to eldar and tau. Hence the restriction. Comparing marines with other marines is fair game.

sent via tapatalk

A.T.
18-04-2016, 10:29
Sororitas -

Purely internal balance, aside from a few warlord traits and wargear (condemnor/mace of valaan) being uninspiring or pointless you could probably run the codex against itself fairly well.

More broadly speaking it entirely lacks interaction with large swathes of the rules - blast rules (except for thrown frag grenades), the psychic phase, aircraft, the toughness chart, about half the special rules and unit types, d-strength (sisters shooting caps out at strength 8) and other variant weapon types like poison, haywire, etc. You could play them with a much smaller rulebook.

Squadon rules, formations, detachments and the like all missing, not an internal balance issue but you can for instance field a sisters and marines battle company structure side by side - identical (or near enough) vehicles, wargear, model count, etc - and the marines would have enough points left over to field a knight titan in support despite the many advantages they would enjoy over the sororitas on an individual unit level.

And has been said - no codex in print and an ebook that doesn't print well.

Fithos
18-04-2016, 16:50
Astra militarum:

The AM codex is actually pretty well internally balanced. There are only two units that are obvious outliers.

1) ogryns. There is literally no reason to ever use ogryns with bullgryns in the codex. Bullgryns do everything except better. I would like to see ogryns and bullgryns combined into a single profile where the base guy is a stock ogryn and then you can upgrade with carapace, shields, mauls, and whatever else. It doesn't make the ogryns any more appealing but at least then we can stop pretending we have more elite choices than we actually do.

2)scout sentinels.
Again this is a case of armored sentinels are just better for the points but there is some value in taking scout sentinels, particularly the out flank. I think scout sentinels should just be more menuverable in general and have been complaining about it since I started playing in 3rd edition. Why is a fast recon walker moving at the same speed as a heavy gun platform? If you gave scout sentinels a dunestrider equivalent I would be much more likely to take them. Another idea, since they are meant for disruption, would be to give them a rule like "objective denied" this unit can contest objectives being held by units with objective secured.

Honorable mentions:

Nork. This guy is completely useless. Unless they are willing to give him a rule where his command squad counts as t5 while he is alive but wounds are always allocated to him first there is just no reason to use him.

Wyvern. The only unit in the book I would be tempted to call too good. It could probably stand either a points increase or losing a single shot per gun but honestly it's too good at something the AM codex is already too good at which is massive anti infantry so I probably wouldn't bother.

Maybe I am missing something but I play a lot with my guard and I find most units have a pretty good place in the codex. Only units I can't remember using are ogryns and scout sentinels since we got access to their better counterparts.

Oh, I almost forgot about heavy weapons squads. Heavy weapons teams really need to be split back into two separate models. It makes no sense that a single shot can kill both guys while a blast only hits one.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

AngryAngel
19-04-2016, 01:56
I was under the impression that SWs didn't really do the scout/training thing, and just dumped their raw recruits into Blood Claw squads resulting in lower stats... and their scouts being more elite.

True to up to a point. However, their recruits do grow up in a very dangerous combative world, and are picked usually for hand to hand prowess first and probably learn marksmanship second. For blood claws however there really isn't a reason they have the lower stats then space marine scouts, however, they do need to be less then grey hunters, I feel like blood claws are in a bad place. This could be fixed with fixing their unit cost some, as is 13 pts per blood claw is still too much when most marines are coming in at 14 pts per now. Maybe at least give them WS 4 and keep BS 3 ? I don't know they do need something though as really very little reason to look their way over grey hunters, even with grey hunters being less optimized now.

Wolf scouts however, they are in a real pickle, when normal marine scouts had WS 3 and BS 3, they still could say they feel eliteish, but they have since nerfed behind enemy lines and outflank in general from core rules, they maintain a high unit cost, for no reason aside from acute senses, leaving basic marine scouts to do their job just as well but cheaper and giving the wolf scouts no real elite feel at all. They are perhaps the worst unit in the book, when they should at least be one of the most interesting fluff wise ( opinion of course ) I also have 2 units of them and man do I miss them feeling good to use.




Astra militarum:

The AM codex is actually pretty well internally balanced. There are only two units that are obvious outliers.

1) ogryns. There is literally no reason to ever use ogryns with bullgryns in the codex. Bullgryns do everything except better. I would like to see ogryns and bullgryns combined into a single profile where the base guy is a stock ogryn and then you can upgrade with carapace, shields, mauls, and whatever else. It doesn't make the ogryns any more appealing but at least then we can stop pretending we have more elite choices than we actually do.

2)scout sentinels.
Again this is a case of armored sentinels are just better for the points but there is some value in taking scout sentinels, particularly the out flank. I think scout sentinels should just be more menuverable in general and have been complaining about it since I started playing in 3rd edition. Why is a fast recon walker moving at the same speed as a heavy gun platform? If you gave scout sentinels a dunestrider equivalent I would be much more likely to take them. Another idea, since they are meant for disruption, would be to give them a rule like "objective denied" this unit can contest objectives being held by units with objective secured.

Honorable mentions:

Nork. This guy is completely useless. Unless they are willing to give him a rule where his command squad counts as t5 while he is alive but wounds are always allocated to him first there is just no reason to use him.

Wyvern. The only unit in the book I would be tempted to call too good. It could probably stand either a points increase or losing a single shot per gun but honestly it's too good at something the AM codex is already too good at which is massive anti infantry so I probably wouldn't bother.

Maybe I am missing something but I play a lot with my guard and I find most units have a pretty good place in the codex. Only units I can't remember using are ogryns and scout sentinels since we got access to their better counterparts.

Oh, I almost forgot about heavy weapons squads. Heavy weapons teams really need to be split back into two separate models. It makes no sense that a single shot can kill both guys while a blast only hits one.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk


Have to say, I agree with your thoughts on the AM codex, even in regards to the Wyvern, but I wouldn't change it despite it being very good, as you say it really just adds a very good unit that does something the rest of the army does well already, so why worry of it ? Ogryns should have some kind of utility or difference as opposed to just being worse bullgryns.

Scout sentinels are meh, but not sure what they would have done to them aside from maybe giving them stealth or the like ?

Heavy weapon squads oh my god, when will these be addressed ? I quietly cry, and wonder, when I won't look at them as simple overly expensive kill points for the enemy.

I will give a shout out to the Rough Riders however, they need some new models and/or better rules. As is I've never seen another guard player use them, they just as too bad with the PW rule changes, got more expensive, and too hard to find the models for. I appreciate they keep their rules around, they need some serious updating though they fit no real use you can't find elsewhere, are extremely fragile and pts expensive.

WLBjork
19-04-2016, 05:20
Space Wolves: Would love to have some competitive builds other than thunder wolf spam (I do love thunderwolves though).

There are. I'm currently in a league where there are just 2 games left to play - Eldar (Wraith force, currently 1st) vs Necrons (Decurion, currently 2nd) and Ultramarines (reinforced Demi-company, currently 4th) vs Orks (Ghazgkull formation, 5th). The scores are flat based on VPs from tactical objectives. The Ultramarines player needs to win by at least 18VPs to take 3rd place if I remember correctly.

My biggest chunk of bad luck has been 3-4 games where I kept drawing TOs that were hard to complete. On the other hand, I am the only player to have wiped out the Wraith force (Wraith Knight, Wraith Lord, unit of Wraith Blades in Wave Serpent, unit of Wraith Guard in Wave Serpent, unit of Wraith Guard on foot, unit of Guardians on foot, unit of Guardians on foot, Wraith Seer (house ruled at the time to be a 1-model formation), Fire Prism). I'm using a Codex:Space Wolves Great Company. Not a Thunderwolf in sight. Heck, I have only 4 models for all 3 Great Companies I possess.


Bloodclaws should be better than they are (WS and BS 4 as with other chapters new recruits for example).

BS4, probably. The problem is, at WS4 they become too attractive compared to Grey Hunters.


I know this next point is comparing to the space marine codex but it's kind of relevant, our dreadnought should have a base attacks characteristic of 4![quote]

Agreed. I'm hoping this will be fixed in the next Warzone Fenris book.

[quote]Give me a reason to take space wolf scouts again! I have 2 nicely painted squads that don't see the table!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Its amazing what a cheap unit of Scouts (Melta Gun, Camo Cloaks) can do when outflanking :evilgrin:


My concern is the Stormwolf Gunship. Compared to the Transport, you lose twin-linked on the Helfrost weapons, your Lascannon are downgraded to missiles, you lose 10 slots of transport capacity and the Assault Vehicle rule for either a larger blast or the Lance rule. Effectively, the Helfrost Destructor weighs in at about 80-90 points.

Whilst I'm on the subject, the Skyhammer missiles should be twin-linked as well.

Gingerwerewolf
19-04-2016, 11:50
Tyranids have been designed as if they are the bad guys. Bad guys are made to loose and in ways to make the good guys look good. There are rules in there that make it more fun for the enemy to remove your models while at the same time, strangling you. The Synapse Fearless "Theme" is rubbish in a game where everything has Fearless in some form or another.

The inherent rules of the Nids are unfocused and terrible - the whole army needs a ground up rethink.

Give them true hordes, where they can sacrifice themselves to kill the enemy.

Make them like Guard without guns. Allow a Troops Choice of Gaunts to be bought with its support of Pyrovores and Venomthropes and Tyranid Warriors as one unit and as one slot on the FoC

malisteen
19-04-2016, 17:36
Chaos Marines:

Lack of Functional Delivery & Deployment Options: The army is lousy with melee infantry that lack access to reasonable assault transports. Access to rules like infiltrate or scout is limited or non-existent. Ever since they lost access to their homing beacons, Deep Strike is basically a non-starter as well. Their only assault transport outside of Forgeworld is a worse version of the worst imperial land raider.

Options are generally overpriced - not just an external problem, but an internal one as well, that drastically discourages narrative-based aplications of marks, vets, and other upgrades. Vets and marks in particular are priced differently for different units, which, yeah, you can see what the designer was thinking, but the end result is that the units one would most expect to be veterans, or to have particular marks, are specifically punished for taking those upgrades.

Every special rules is a paid for upgrade. There is little fluff or character built into most of the units themselves, and when you combine this with the previous problem punishing players for upgrading their units, it results in a lot of bland and boring armies. The only automatic faction-wide special rule is Champions of Chaos, and well...

The whole Champions of Chaos / Boon Table thing. CSM characters are required to fight challenges, and to reward them for this they get upgrades for winning them. But a lot of essential duelist kit (eternal warrior, artificer armor, etc) is reserved for that upgrade table, so CSM characters are generally worse then duelists of other factions with melee ICs (in particular other space marines) until after they've won several challenges, and even then they need to get lucky on boon rolls. It basically turns into a catch 22 situation, which makes the entire Champions of Chaos thing feel like a negative rather than a positive overall. This gets especially laughable whenever a fully equipped chaos lord or crazy expensive special character rolls the 'best' boon table result, downgrading themselves to an unequipped daemon prince - one that might even die automatically if the chaos lord was in the middle of a big scrum at the time and there's no way to fit the prince's big base within 6" but more than 1" from any enemy models.

Self Defeating rules/units: Champions of Chaos falls into this as well, but there are more examples. The dimensional key, for deep strike scatter mitigation unlikely to turn on until most of your deep strikers have already arrived. The warp talons' blinding rule, more likely make them suffer deep strike mishap than to actually blind anything, and almost certain to waste their points and fast slot either way as they sit around in the open twiddling their thumbs for a turn. The rules for marked sorcerers that make make sorcerers of any alignment significantly weaker than their unaligned counterparts (particularly galling for tzeentch players). Thousand sons who pay though the nose for AP3 bolters only to lose firefights with marines in cover or arriving by drop pod due to how much their cost per model limits their fire rate and durability. Pure melee units like possessed and warp talons that lack frag grenades. This plays out in the supplements as well, with one of the most striking examples being the Black Legion's Crucible of Lies, a item so bad that I would pay its point cost to give it to one of my opponent's heroes.

Redundancy: berzerkers/possessed. CSMs/Chosen/Plague Marines. Bikers/Raptors. Forgefiends/Defilers/Helbrutes. Lords/Apostles. The book is lousy with redundant units that do more or less the same thing, of which only one tends to be any good, if any are at all. Apart from units that do more or less the same thing, there are also more widely different units that overlap too much in their battlefield role. Thousand Sons, Raptors, and Baledrakes are all MEQ infantry hate and little more, and that isn't a role that a codex needs three different specialist units to fill. Honestly, that isn't a role that the CSM army needed any specialist units to fill.

Lack of a clear conceptual identity: I talked about this in the other thread, but 40k chaos marines lack a distinct conceptual identity, and trying to cater to both renegades and legionnaires results in a book that is basically just 'spikey space marines'. As long as that's the case, Chaos Marines will always just be objectively better or objectively worse versions of loyalists, and neither is acceptable. The faction, imo, needs a ground up conceptual re-imagining focusing on how losing the heresy followed by 10000 years in the Eye of Terror have broken and rebuilt what used to be the traitor legions into something new and different. A re-imagining that would make heresy vets and renegade marines different tiers within the same armies rather than different armies altogether, while playing up cultists, mutants, and the dark mechanicus.

ashc
19-04-2016, 18:53
Chaos Marines:

Lack of Functional Delivery & Deployment Options: The army is lousy with melee infantry that lack access to reasonable assault transports. Access to rules like infiltrate or scout is limited or non-existent. Ever since they lost access to their homing beacons, Deep Strike is basically a non-starter as well. Their only assault transport outside of Forgeworld is a worse version of the worst imperial land raider.

Options are generally overpriced - not just an external problem, but an internal one as well, that drastically discourages narrative-based aplications of marks, vets, and other upgrades. Vets and marks in particular are priced differently for different units, which, yeah, you can see what the designer was thinking, but the end result is that the units one would most expect to be veterans, or to have particular marks, are specifically punished for taking those upgrades.

Every special rules is a paid for upgrade. There is little fluff or character built into most of the units themselves, and when you combine this with the previous problem punishing players for upgrading their units, it results in a lot of bland and boring armies. The only automatic faction-wide special rule is Champions of Chaos, and well...

The whole Champions of Chaos / Boon Table thing. CSM characters are required to fight challenges, and to reward them for this they get upgrades for winning them. But a lot of essential duelist kit (eternal warrior, artificer armor, etc) is reserved for that upgrade table, so CSM characters are generally worse then duelists of other factions with melee ICs (in particular other space marines) until after they've won several challenges, and even then they need to get lucky on boon rolls. It basically turns into a catch 22 situation, which makes the entire Champions of Chaos thing feel like a negative rather than a positive overall. This gets especially laughable whenever a fully equipped chaos lord or crazy expensive special character rolls the 'best' boon table result, downgrading themselves to an unequipped daemon prince - one that might even die automatically if the chaos lord was in the middle of a big scrum at the time and there's no way to fit the prince's big base within 6" but more than 1" from any enemy models.

Self Defeating rules/units: Champions of Chaos falls into this as well, but there are more examples. The dimensional key, for deep strike scatter mitigation unlikely to turn on until most of your deep strikers have already arrived. The warp talons' blinding rule, more likely make them suffer deep strike mishap than to actually blind anything, and almost certain to waste their points and fast slot either way as they sit around in the open twiddling their thumbs for a turn. The rules for marked sorcerers that make make sorcerers of any alignment significantly weaker than their unaligned counterparts (particularly galling for tzeentch players). Thousand sons who pay though the nose for AP3 bolters only to lose firefights with marines in cover or arriving by drop pod due to how much their cost per model limits their fire rate and durability. Pure melee units like possessed and warp talons that lack frag grenades. This plays out in the supplements as well, with one of the most striking examples being the Black Legion's Crucible of Lies, a item so bad that I would pay its point cost to give it to one of my opponent's heroes.

Redundancy: berzerkers/possessed. CSMs/Chosen/Plague Marines. Bikers/Raptors. Forgefiends/Defilers/Helbrutes. Lords/Apostles. The book is lousy with redundant units that do more or less the same thing, of which only one tends to be any good, if any are at all. Apart from units that do more or less the same thing, there are also more widely different units that overlap too much in their battlefield role. Thousand Sons, Raptors, and Baledrakes are all MEQ infantry hate and little more, and that isn't a role that a codex needs three different specialist units to fill. Honestly, that isn't a role that the CSM army needed any specialist units to fill.

Lack of a clear conceptual identity: I talked about this in the other thread, but 40k chaos marines lack a distinct conceptual identity, and trying to cater to both renegades and legionnaires results in a book that is basically just 'spikey space marines'. As long as that's the case, Chaos Marines will always just be objectively better or objectively worse versions of loyalists, and neither is acceptable. The faction, imo, needs a ground up conceptual re-imagining focusing on how losing the heresy followed by 10000 years in the Eye of Terror have broken and rebuilt what used to be the traitor legions into something new and different. A re-imagining that would make heresy vets and renegade marines different tiers within the same armies rather than different armies altogether, while playing up cultists, mutants, and the dark mechanicus.

This is so spectacularly spot on. Well done sir!

Yrch
19-04-2016, 23:23
Orks:
-you get tons and tons of stuff to kill infanty of any type but vehicles are pretty hard to take on until you use one of your precious heavy support slots for mekguns or be lucky enough to get a powerklaw into melee.
-also the heavy support slot is loaded with way to much stuff.
-our heavy walkers (gorka/morkanaught/stompa) are overpriced for what they can do even though they are fun to play
-leadership is a joke cause the stupid rules makes you loose even more models, bring back the head countin and mob rule
-make trukks and looted tanks more fun and usefull. the looted takes a heavy support slot for way to many points, and trukks just blow up left and right without doing and damage/fun chaos explosions
-needs more random crazyness overall to cause anarchy on the table.

Zustiur
20-04-2016, 05:59
This is so spectacularly spot on. Well done sir!
Agreed. Thank you malisteen, that is exactly the kind of input I'm looking for.

sent via tapatalk

malisteen
20-04-2016, 15:33
Agreed. Thank you malisteen, that is exactly the kind of input I'm looking for.

Chaos Marine players have had a long time to refine this sort of grievance list. :p

Not that we have it worst, mind. Chaos still gets updates and releases more regularly than most any other non-imperial faction. It's just frustrating that for the past decade nearly every one has only seemed to reinforce the problems with the army. I mean, Thousand Sons were long lamented as one of the WORST units of the 4th edition codex, and they were outright NERFED in the 6th edition book that followed, a book which downgraded many other units and actually worsened our already painfully lacking delployment options by dropping homing beacons altogether and removing infiltrate from chosen. Supplements, Campaign books, dataslates, new releases for some of our worst units like possessed in 5th edition or Helbrutes in 7th without rules updates to make them worth playing, FAQs that fix something only for the next FAQ to go back on it, as with the FAQs that made Abaddon immune from turning into a daemon and gave the Heldrake 360 degree vision, both later undone. There's been positives, too. Be'Lakor. The new Renegade Knight rules. But only enough to keep interest in the faction from dying altogether, so that there's still a whole community to be angry again the next time chaos marines get a 'gift' the feels more like a slap in the face.

The result is a steady stream of renewed frustration and anger, as opposed to the hopelessness that grinds away interest in factions that are simply neglected outright.

Daenerys Targaryen
20-04-2016, 23:15
Chaos Marine players have had a long time to refine this sort of grievance list. :p

Not that we have it worst, mind. Chaos still gets updates and releases more regularly than most any other non-imperial faction. It's just frustrating that for the past decade nearly every one has only seemed to reinforce the problems with the army. I mean, Thousand Sons were long lamented as one of the WORST units of the 4th edition codex, and they were outright NERFED in the 6th edition book that followed, a book which downgraded many other units and actually worsened our already painfully lacking delployment options by dropping homing beacons altogether and removing infiltrate from chosen. Supplements, Campaign books, dataslates, new releases for some of our worst units like possessed in 5th edition or Helbrutes in 7th without rules updates to make them worth playing, FAQs that fix something only for the next FAQ to go back on it, as with the FAQs that made Abaddon immune from turning into a daemon and gave the Heldrake 360 degree vision, both later undone. There's been positives, too. Be'Lakor. The new Renegade Knight rules. But only enough to keep interest in the faction from dying altogether, so that there's still a whole community to be angry again the next time chaos marines get a 'gift' the feels more like a slap in the face.

The result is a steady stream of renewed frustration and anger, as opposed to the hopelessness that grinds away interest in factions that are simply neglected outright.
Then add to this sorry state of affairs, that Chaos players still routinely get to endure the cries of OP cheese from Loyalist players over the likes of our Heldrake, Sorcerers, Black Mace Prince, obsec Plague Marines, & Obliterators...

Gives the impression that a sizable chunk of the community strongly believe that Chaos don't deserve nice things, because... "bad guys" and always losing BS.

MajorWesJanson
21-04-2016, 04:48
Then add to this sorry state of affairs, that Chaos players still routinely get to endure the cries of OP cheese from Loyalist players over the likes of our Heldrake, Sorcerers, Black Mace Prince, obsec Plague Marines, & Obliterators...

Gives the impression that a sizable chunk of the community strongly believe that Chaos don't deserve nice things, because... "bad guys" and always losing BS.

Heldrake with the 360 turret was disgusting and broken as a flier. Sorcerers would be worse, except their powers are meh, and now formations have boosted other psykers up to their power level. The rest are all meh at this point. Once the Baledrake was brought back to sanity, CSM don't have anything really on broken par as half the Eldar codex.


As for internal problems I would put Grav weapons up there. Tehy really need toned back some for the sake of both external (MCs are hit hard by them) and internal (they are generally superior to other special weapons due to their rate of fire)
An easy fix for them would be to adjust the weapon types-
Grav Pistol is fine. No one takes it as is. Maybe a points drop for it and plasma pistols to 10 points across all codices.
Grav Gun- change from Salvo 2/3 to rapid fire 24". Increased range would make it more viable in tactical squads, while the loss of a shot would reduce the prevalence of biker grav squads. It becomes a bit more of a choice between it and plasma guns. Plasma has the S7 making it a threat to a wider range of units, but grav is better against MCs and GMCs, and lacks gets hot.
Grav Cannon- change from salvo 3/5 to salvo 2/4. Just trim back the firepower a bit.

insectum7
21-04-2016, 19:30
Chaos Marine players have had a long time to refine this sort of grievance list. :p

Not that we have it worst, mind. Chaos still gets updates and releases more regularly than most any other non-imperial faction. It's just frustrating that for the past decade nearly every one has only seemed to reinforce the problems with the army. I mean, Thousand Sons were long lamented as one of the WORST units of the 4th edition codex, and they were outright NERFED in the 6th edition book that followed, a book which downgraded many other units and actually worsened our already painfully lacking delployment options by dropping homing beacons altogether and removing infiltrate from chosen. Supplements, Campaign books, dataslates, new releases for some of our worst units like possessed in 5th edition or Helbrutes in 7th without rules updates to make them worth playing, FAQs that fix something only for the next FAQ to go back on it, as with the FAQs that made Abaddon immune from turning into a daemon and gave the Heldrake 360 degree vision, both later undone. There's been positives, too. Be'Lakor. The new Renegade Knight rules. But only enough to keep interest in the faction from dying altogether, so that there's still a whole community to be angry again the next time chaos marines get a 'gift' the feels more like a slap in the face.

The result is a steady stream of renewed frustration and anger, as opposed to the hopelessness that grinds away interest in factions that are simply neglected outright.

Chaos seems to have the obnoxious problem that GW delivers for them the opposite of what many Chaos players want. Players want their chaos infantry to be more viable, but instead are given weird new big models and units instead. Eldar Aspect Warriors got some really nice boosts with their updates and formations, putting those traditional and iconic models back on the table again. Chaos just needs a little of that same treatment.

Daemonkin seem to work well though.




As for internal problems I would put Grav weapons up there. Tehy really need toned back some for the sake of both external (MCs are hit hard by them) and internal (they are generally superior to other special weapons due to their rate of fire)
An easy fix for them would be to adjust the weapon types-
Grav Pistol is fine. No one takes it as is. Maybe a points drop for it and plasma pistols to 10 points across all codices.
Grav Gun- change from Salvo 2/3 to rapid fire 24". Increased range would make it more viable in tactical squads, while the loss of a shot would reduce the prevalence of biker grav squads. It becomes a bit more of a choice between it and plasma guns. Plasma has the S7 making it a threat to a wider range of units, but grav is better against MCs and GMCs, and lacks gets hot.
Grav Cannon- change from salvo 3/5 to salvo 2/4. Just trim back the firepower a bit.

I like most of that, but I want to cast a vote for the regular Grav Gun to remain as-is, and instead prevent Bikes from counting "hand-held" guns as Relentless. The balance of the Grav gun to me is that it's clearly best on a static unit, as a high-power defensive weapon, while the Plasma gun is better on the move and has a bit more range. The choice for Tactical Squads is in a sweet spot at the moment. In a Drop Pod or more mobile squad Plasma looks good since you can tackle lighter vehicles, all infantry and it's got that little bit of extra range on the move. If you're building Rhino mounted Objective sitters then the Grav gun is nice to have, you position them to hold area against elite infantry and MCs moving into your zone. Because I see Tacticals as the core for marines, I'd rather use them as the focus for balance and adjust Bikes accordingly.

WarsmithGarathor94
22-04-2016, 12:16
Space marines
Got no real complaints but I do wish they would of made it so you had to take squads at their max size to get the free transports.
Chaos marines
Mal has summed it up but I will add one thing he's missed. The fact that for some reason the moment a plague marine gets on a bike or uses a jump pack or terminator armour or becomes a lord/sorceror for example he loses his fnp defensive grenades and poisoned weapons

malisteen
22-04-2016, 13:01
There is some fluff consistency question there. I'm not sure cult versions of every unit are necessary, but terminators and generic HQs at the least.

Honestly, better to treat marks AoS style (free, but don't do anything other than flag units for special rules like aura buffs from characters, maybe unlock some mark-specific icon and weapon options), then treat cults as a paid for upgrade, maybe four of a list of available veteran skills, possibly restricted to veteran units (ie, chosen, terminators, HQs).

That kind of thing would require a pretty major codex revision, though, of the sort that GW just does not seem to have the motivation to tackle these days. I think the best we can hope for is a new set of aligned psychic powers (maybe fixing the stupid rules surrounding the current ones), a handful of new artifacts (hopefully alleviating our lack of dueling kit), and a bunch of formations packaged in a campaign book.

If they go aggressive with all of that, then a lot of our issues could be significantly alleviated, but GW's studio has been super timid with chaos marines ever since we darn near took over the galaxy in late third & early fourth edition, so I wouldn't count on it.

Zustiur
26-04-2016, 10:48
To answer my own question;
Dark Angels have a number of small issues
The Land Speeder Vengeance is less likely to get hot when overcharging its gun than when it doesn't overcharge. Also its range is terrible for a gun that big. Thirdly, the model is clearly twin-linked, but the rules don't count it that way.
Rerolling jink for all Ravenwing is too good. It makes me feel like I'm handicapping myself if I take a list without Ravenwing.
Ravenwing Black Knights are either too cheap, or the regular Ravenwing pay too much for plasma guns. A regular biker with plasma gun is 40 points. A black knight is also 40 points, but has twin linked plasma (albeit 18"), S5 rending melee weapon, skilled rider, and 2 attacks on the statline.
Deathwing are unplayable on their own (Auto lose turn 1), which seems rather silly when there's a Deathwing specific detachment.
A lot of the flavour items from the previous codex got removed or made less cool (banners and power field generator)
We have the same ridiculous free transport cheese as SM.
Ezekiel and Asmodai both seem lackluster.


Imperial Guard's obvious issues are
Instant death affecting 'models' that consist of two separate guardsmen. Heavy weapons teams should be immune to this somehow.
Either heavy weapons squads with mortars are too expensive, or wyverns are too cheap.
Heavy bolters being the same price as autocannons results in heavy bolters never seeing the table.
Rough Riders should probably have T4, but failing that their lances should still get the bonus to initiative on the charge.
Armoured sentinels might be a bit too cheap for front armour 12.
Not having any lords of war is purely a result of when the codex was released. Same goes for formations and detachments.

Fithos
26-04-2016, 16:36
I have no problem with Grav-Guns personally. As a primarily infantry guard player I just laugh when someone chooses to pay for a weapon upgrade that is worse than their basic gun at hurting my models. I think the problem with Grav guns is entirely a meta problem where people are spamming wraithknights. If there was some way to make hoard armies viable in a competitive meta then I think grav would pretty much evaporate as the weapon of choice and people would have to put a bit more thought.

comradeda
26-04-2016, 17:32
Oh boy, a rant thread!

Dark Eldar: No non-aircraft anti-air. From a game design point of view, this just encourages lots of aircraft (or ignoring the game mechanic entirely).

Dark Eldar fighter significantly worse at fighting (as in, aircraft fighting aircraft) than an Imperial armoured flying transport (the Vendetta). Indeed, really lacking in AA choices even with the aircraft.

Internal balance is better than it used to be, but Wyches suffered pretty badly (though I don't think they should be a fantastic anti-tank unit). Bloodbrides (the Wyches' elite counterpart) have always been pretty awful, but they are even more so now.

Beasts were nerfed a little too hard.

Hellions kind of pointless.

Flavour. A lot of our more interesting choices and rules were removed in favour of standardised rules. This wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that the Eldar and Tau releases were full of cheap powerful choices with flavourful special rules. For instance, Wych Weapons became variations on a re-roll (and AP in melee, which itself isn't too bad). All the Combat Drugs became a randomised +1 stat boost. A lot of one-use only weapons disappeared. All forms of pinning disappeared.

There is one good Warlord Trait that is vastly vastly superior to all the other ones. And none of the special characters get it.

Special Characters all disappeared.

There are a bunch of things that only affect things without Fearless or And They Shall Know So Fear. That's barely anything in the grand scheme of things.

WLBjork
26-04-2016, 21:32
Imperial Guard's obvious issues are
Instant death affecting 'models' that consist of two separate guardsmen. Heavy weapons teams should be immune to this somehow.
Either heavy weapons squads with mortars are too expensive, or wyverns are too cheap.

Yep. Especially the Wyvern. Dropping the twin-linked would still be too cheap, but no-where near as bad. Would also fix the issue of how the flip twin-linked interacts with the multiple barrage rule.


Heavy bolters being the same price as autocannons results in heavy bolters never seeing the table.
Not in my club. More shots = more hits = more wounds.

Rough Riders should probably have T4, but failing that their lances should still get the bonus to initiative on the charge.
Use the Death Rider rules. Death Riders may be a little underpriced, but so much better than Rough Riders. (+1 WS, W and A, Carapace Armour, a FNP save...)


I'm going to add Storm Troopers to the list. They pay over the odds for a 3/4 range lasgun that is optimised to killing certain armours. Against other armours, the humble lasgun is more than adequate to take down the enemy

Zustiur
26-04-2016, 23:55
I'm going to add Storm Troopers to the list. They pay over the odds for a 3/4 range lasgun that is optimised to killing certain armours. Against other armours, the humble lasgun is more than adequate to take down the enemy

I forgot about storm troopers. Man I have no idea what to do with them, and I don't think that GW does either. Maybe the hellgun could be a combo weapon. One powerful shot, gets hot, or multiple weaker shots. An assault 1/assault 3 kind of deal except not actually assault.

I also forgot to mention the way special weapons are handed out to Ravenwing / SM bikes encouraged msu spam.

sent via tapatalk

LotusCorgi
27-04-2016, 08:20
Chaos Marines:

Lack of Functional Delivery & Deployment Options: The army is lousy with melee infantry that lack access to reasonable assault transports. Access to rules like infiltrate or scout is limited or non-existent. Ever since they lost access to their homing beacons, Deep Strike is basically a non-starter as well. Their only assault transport outside of Forgeworld is a worse version of the worst imperial land raider.

Options are generally overpriced - not just an external problem, but an internal one as well, that drastically discourages narrative-based aplications of marks, vets, and other upgrades. Vets and marks in particular are priced differently for different units, which, yeah, you can see what the designer was thinking, but the end result is that the units one would most expect to be veterans, or to have particular marks, are specifically punished for taking those upgrades.

Every special rules is a paid for upgrade. There is little fluff or character built into most of the units themselves, and when you combine this with the previous problem punishing players for upgrading their units, it results in a lot of bland and boring armies. The only automatic faction-wide special rule is Champions of Chaos, and well...

The whole Champions of Chaos / Boon Table thing. CSM characters are required to fight challenges, and to reward them for this they get upgrades for winning them. But a lot of essential duelist kit (eternal warrior, artificer armor, etc) is reserved for that upgrade table, so CSM characters are generally worse then duelists of other factions with melee ICs (in particular other space marines) until after they've won several challenges, and even then they need to get lucky on boon rolls. It basically turns into a catch 22 situation, which makes the entire Champions of Chaos thing feel like a negative rather than a positive overall. This gets especially laughable whenever a fully equipped chaos lord or crazy expensive special character rolls the 'best' boon table result, downgrading themselves to an unequipped daemon prince - one that might even die automatically if the chaos lord was in the middle of a big scrum at the time and there's no way to fit the prince's big base within 6" but more than 1" from any enemy models.

Self Defeating rules/units: Champions of Chaos falls into this as well, but there are more examples. The dimensional key, for deep strike scatter mitigation unlikely to turn on until most of your deep strikers have already arrived. The warp talons' blinding rule, more likely make them suffer deep strike mishap than to actually blind anything, and almost certain to waste their points and fast slot either way as they sit around in the open twiddling their thumbs for a turn. The rules for marked sorcerers that make make sorcerers of any alignment significantly weaker than their unaligned counterparts (particularly galling for tzeentch players). Thousand sons who pay though the nose for AP3 bolters only to lose firefights with marines in cover or arriving by drop pod due to how much their cost per model limits their fire rate and durability. Pure melee units like possessed and warp talons that lack frag grenades. This plays out in the supplements as well, with one of the most striking examples being the Black Legion's Crucible of Lies, a item so bad that I would pay its point cost to give it to one of my opponent's heroes.

Redundancy: berzerkers/possessed. CSMs/Chosen/Plague Marines. Bikers/Raptors. Forgefiends/Defilers/Helbrutes. Lords/Apostles. The book is lousy with redundant units that do more or less the same thing, of which only one tends to be any good, if any are at all. Apart from units that do more or less the same thing, there are also more widely different units that overlap too much in their battlefield role. Thousand Sons, Raptors, and Baledrakes are all MEQ infantry hate and little more, and that isn't a role that a codex needs three different specialist units to fill. Honestly, that isn't a role that the CSM army needed any specialist units to fill.

Lack of a clear conceptual identity: I talked about this in the other thread, but 40k chaos marines lack a distinct conceptual identity, and trying to cater to both renegades and legionnaires results in a book that is basically just 'spikey space marines'. As long as that's the case, Chaos Marines will always just be objectively better or objectively worse versions of loyalists, and neither is acceptable. The faction, imo, needs a ground up conceptual re-imagining focusing on how losing the heresy followed by 10000 years in the Eye of Terror have broken and rebuilt what used to be the traitor legions into something new and different. A re-imagining that would make heresy vets and renegade marines different tiers within the same armies rather than different armies altogether, while playing up cultists, mutants, and the dark mechanicus.
THIS plus get rid of chaos marine mk.VI robot pants.

Daenerys Targaryen
28-04-2016, 21:59
Feth, just burn the entire dumpster fire that's the current CSM range to the ground, and release a new model line that's not perpetually stuck in 2000'ish designs AND includes all our *********** options for once!!

malisteen
28-04-2016, 22:18
Yeah, I took this to be a purely rules/codex complaint thread. If we're talking about product lines, yeah, there is MUCH to be desired with the chaos range. About the only really fantastic kit, imo, is the raptors/warp talons, and those are sub par and terrible units respectively. The helbrute kit is also nice, if a bit static, though, again, terrible unit that you wouldn't actually want to field. The DV stuff - lord, chosen, cultists, and brute - are all fantastic, but they're also all stuck with equipment options you wouldn't really want to give them, cultists excepted. The non-plastic daemon prince and warpsmith are also ok, but... resin....

Seriously, the whole range is desperate for an overhaul on the level of what dark eldar got.

Kakapo42
29-04-2016, 00:52
Feth, just burn the entire dumpster fire that's the current CSM range to the ground, and release a new model line that's not perpetually stuck in 2000'ish designs AND includes all our *********** options for once!!

What if you like the 2000ish designs...

Zustiur
29-04-2016, 05:54
Yeah, I took this to be a purely rules/codex complaint thread.

It is. I'm collecting data for a rules rewrite. I can't change a model line.

sent via tapatalk

WLBjork
01-05-2016, 19:22
Space Wolves (Warzone Fenris) - the Wulfen themselves are about right in price (when compared to the Lone Wolf). Their equipment options are too cheap however, I'd happily pay double the points for said equipment.

silveralen
04-05-2016, 16:06
Space wolves: Not nearly enough wolves for my taste. It feels they really are letting the theme down. For example: It can be quite difficult to make an army compromised entirely of wolf themed units. Formations do help, allowing for an army composed entirely of wulfen and thunderwolves, but it'd still seems like this should be the norm for space wolves.

What is needed is some better variety. In troops, perhaps some blood claw wulfen and perhaps a variant of fernesian wolves in the troops section as well. This means one doesn't need to resort to formations for the wolfiest space wolf army possible. Of course, this still leaves a surprisingly unwolfy heavy support. We clearly need a unit of cyber-thunderwolves with guns strapped to their backs as well. Preferably frost guns of some sort, this is actually a secondary issue itself. I really don't think the codex manages to do justice to the icey nature of the space wolves home. I mean, a shocking number of units possess no weapons with frost in the title, clearly something in desperate need of remedy.

It just feels like they couldn't commit to the themes they presented in the space wolf codex, though I'm happy to see supplements at least taking steps to make them properly wolfy and frosty.

Skittari/Cult Mechanicus: I'm entirely unclear why we have as many vehicles as we do. I think the both codexes did a great job focusing on footslogging infantry and/or monstrous creatures, this really does justice to a group known for their reliance on machinery and connection to technology. Afterall, a highly mechanized mechanicus or skitarii would be absolutely absurd.

I'm just not sure why Skitarii felt the need to include any, Cult Mechanicus did a much better job in this regard, as it didn't possess a single transport, tank, flyer, or any vehicle within it. Of course, for some reason they were still given the ability to repair such units, which seems silly. Why should a techpriest have the ability to repair vehicles? The codex does an excellent job illustrating how alien such devices are to the Mechanicus, and yet they include it. At least with Skitarii you have their usage of vehicles is due to the lack of pure faith clearly present in the true Cult Mechanicus, but regardless these elements really do need to be stripped out for the next codex.

Chaos Space Marines/ Khorne Daemonkin: I'd make a joke, but I recently realized my space wolves do a better job as khorne aligned berserker marines army (complete with mutants) than anything i can make with either of the actual books, and that's funnier than any joke i could make. A unit of wulfen with frostaxes (or TH+SS if we go function over form) is everything beserkers of khorne wish they could be. Also somehow a giant wolf is a more dangerous mount than a mechanical demon rhino.

Maidel
04-05-2016, 21:34
You are joking surely?

Saying that space wolves 'aren't committed' to the wolf theme is like saying Blood Angels haven't 'committed' to the vampire theme.

It's a space marine army with a wolf theme, it's not an army of battle crazed lycanthropes and their pets.

But I agree with pretty much everything else.

Daenerys Targaryen
04-05-2016, 23:03
Daemons of Chaos: The 'Daemon of Tzeentch' rule is bunk at this point, and gives 0 benefits to any psychic ability, which is an utter travesty for the God of MAGIC's servants!
Instead, Tzeentch really, really needs a way to cast their Witchfires multiple times. As is stands, Horrors & Tzheralds simply don't function properly together anymore, and between the random number of shots and/or strength + Warpflame, our 'magical artillery' platforms have been nerfed into the ground.

Zustiur
05-05-2016, 00:30
You are joking surely?

Yes he was.

On an unrelated note; I forgot to mention earlier that the base unit price of tactical terminators should drop by 10 points to account for the sergeant not having a power fist.


sent via tapatalk

TheBearminator
05-05-2016, 03:37
Dark Eldar
Why do we have one cheap flyer that comes with four big blast missiles and one expensive that needs to pay for them? Why is this second one referred to as a bomber when it comes with one stupid bomb? Why is the first one referred to as a fighter when it's so much better at killing stuff on the ground than in the air? Give it vector dancer at least and give the bomber a second bomb and a few missiles for free.

Maidel
05-05-2016, 07:19
Yes he was.

On an unrelated note; I forgot to mention earlier that the base unit price of tactical terminators should drop by 10 points to account for the sergeant not having a power fist.

.


sent via tapatalk

Oh good. Internet forums are desperately missing a sarcasm font.