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nagash66
18-04-2016, 11:30
Just finished this book and i must say i am quite split.

On the one hand the politics is once again excellent, the plot is moving along and characters are having to deal with their choices from the last books.

However i did not like the Black Templar-Iron Warrior interactions, i think they felt forced and go 100% against the way the Templars were potrayed in this and previous book.

Also i know eldar harlequins are ninja good. But come on, really? The way the book shows is the Eldar could pretty force their way to the Throne any time they wanted too. Too say nothing about the how the Custodes were shown.

fluxdeluxe
18-04-2016, 11:55
I enjoyed the book, it didn't jar my sense of disbelief too much. There's always, always over exaggeration which don't square with the reality of the rules. For instance 100 marines killing thousands of orks, it just wouldn't happen in the game because of fundamentals like balance etc.

I really enjoyed it, i was very interested about the philosophical implications of so many space marines banding together. We also got a first glimpse at the beast. The only thing that i thought was jarring was the purpose of the Eldar rather than how kick ass they were. I thought it would be a bit more than a warning.

lots of interesting stuff though

Any psykers that try to contact the emperor psychically, die.
The fact that the ork waagh seems focused on man rather than the imperium of man.
The Adeptus Mechanicus seem awfully close to replicating the gravity technology
The supposition that the orks have achieved a next leap in evolution, ambassador castes etc.
What are the Ad mech doing with all those orks, presumably trying to replicate a psychic gestalt(who knows!)?

The interesting thing to me is that this series along with the Abbadon trilogy is leading into the first black crusade.

Fen
18-04-2016, 12:00
Just finished it too

I agree that the custodian felt a bit....Underpowered,i guess,even considering they were facing harlequins...Still,the worf effect is applied way too often in 40k fiction to be surprised by it.

I disagree on the BT-IW part.Yeah,the alliance seems a bit too fast in forming,considering the dreadnought-marshal is clearly painted going the chaos-dreadnought-way of crazy because he refuses to sleep and he's shown to be obsessed with vengeance before...But still,i can stretch enough to believe it.And from it we get an interesting discussion on how the 2 side of the long war see things,where neither side is completly wrong (for example the warsmith isnt wrong,the templars are hypocrits in discarding the will of the Emperor regarding him not being considered a god....But at the same time,the templars aren't wrong,the imperial truth was a lie for the good of mankind...)

Parts like this


‘Such devotion. Perhaps the Emperor is a god, after all, if He can inspire sane men to worship Him so,’ said Kalkator. ‘Embrace this truth, and your soul will be saved!’ said Magneric eagerly.

Kalkator laughed.
Before he left the roof to join his warriors aboard their craft, he shouted down to Magneric. ‘I am not going to convert to your pathetic creed, Magneric. For if I cannot trust a man who lies, I trust a god who does so even less.’
Where the irony goes round and round again

Also,am i the only one that tought about the juxaposition of the templars faith and the orks manifesting the waaaaaaaaaagh as deliberate?Is the Emperor really protecting them,or are the templars creating their "zeal-field" much like the orks do? :)


Then,as i wrote in the last book topic,we start to see the origin of the split in the inquisition...And who could be the source of the ordos' idea?Vangorich of course :D.And well,it makes sense that he is the one advocating specialization,like he says,the assassinorum temples work best because they each operate in one single field.

All around i feel like this bookwas more focussed (while we still have 3 pov [4 considering the first chapter] with Mars/The last Wall/The Kalkanor crusade most of the book is following either the last 2) and while it has the SM on the forefront most of the time it does so in a varied way that keeps things interesting.We see inter-chapter politics,obvious battle,and then how the marines deal with the imperium at large (again,the discussion bettween Thane the ecclesiarch is a nice touch)and vice-versa.Meanwhile,the mechanicus is as dislikable as ever and i can't wait to see the senatum being blown up by someone (more so now that the ecclesiarch has crossed the line from simply inept to completly bonkers)

What the books is missing compared to the others is the big "booom" event at the end,strange :D

P.s: I'm still left with a question...Where the hell is the Phalanx?Koorland mentions it but we still have no idea of where it is....Logic says they left it behind in the Sol system when leaving for Ardamantua but still no one thinks of using it (i mean,what best way to blow up a moon than using another moon...)

nagash66
18-04-2016, 12:38
The interesting thing to me is that this series along with the Abbadon trilogy is leading into the first black crusade.




It has already happened, hence why no Rogal Dorn. Date wise it is around 750 M31 when that goes down and the books take place firmly in M32.




J

P.s: I'm still left with a question...Where the hell is the Phalanx?Koorland mentions it but we still have no idea of where it is....Logic says they left it behind in the Sol system when leaving for Ardamantua but still no one thinks of using it (i mean,what best way to blow up a moon than using another moon...)

The only thing i can think of is that following the death of Dorn they are using it as a shrine/temple. That or it will be a plot point in latter books.

Someone suggested it is out recruiting/training scouts ( so a mobile recruitment centre) but it doesnt fit with Koorland being the last IF.

Could it be that a successor chapter makes use of it and we will see it being gifted to the new IF as part of their eventual re founding?

fluxdeluxe
18-04-2016, 13:10
yeah i also thought the absence of the phalanx was strange....

I think the whole armour of faith thing is interesting. Before the emperors ascension, he was an incredibly power, that existed solely in the material plane, able to project his power into the warp. Now that his apotheosis has occurred he seems to be a being that exists almost solely in the warp that can project his power into the material universe. Like any other sorcerer, priest or practitioner the black templars by accident rather than design seemed to have fulfilled all the normal preconditions for divine provenience.

Praise (their shouted prayers)
Ritual (the structure of those prayers)
Faith (The belief in those prayers)
Sacrifice (the orcs, the fuel for those prayers)

The book suggests that the imperial truth is indeed dead and the emperor has ascended to a being that can only be considered a god as he is in M41.

I also object to the imperial truth being a lie to benefit mankind, it was a lie to benefit the emperor

fluxdeluxe
18-04-2016, 13:33
It has already happened, hence why no Rogal Dorn. Date wise it is around 750 M31 when that goes down and the books take place firmly in M32.



oops you are quite right ! The second black crusade that would be 597 M32 about 50 years later



The only thing i can think of is that following the death of Dorn they are using it as a shrine/temple. That or it will be a plot point in latter books.

Someone suggested it is out recruiting/training scouts ( so a mobile recruitment centre) but it doesnt fit with Koorland being the last IF.

Could it be that a successor chapter makes use of it and we will see it being gifted to the new IF as part of their eventual re founding?

Probably something like that somebody must have stewardship of it

nagash66
18-04-2016, 13:50
Something else that occurs to me, Koorland muses that the IF most likely have not a single suit of terminator plate left following Armatura, which i find ludicrous. Taking aside that they are first founding, and that we are still on the SECOND founding ( wonder where all those other chapters got theirs from) they should have nothing less then warehouses full of them. I mean come on BL :shifty:.

Fen
18-04-2016, 14:11
Well,on that matter...

We can see it as him making a guess...He's not of the first company and he's not of the armory,so he might not know exactly how many terminator armors the chapter has even from his captain rankl

Or...Maybe he's right.

The siege of Terra...The scouring...Dorn willingly throwing away most of his legion at the Iron cage...The second founding...And then 1 millenium and half of war....They might have actually expended all their terminator suits when they lose the full first company with no chance to salvage anything.

nagash66
18-04-2016, 14:28
Well,on that matter...

We can see it as him making a guess...He's not of the first company and he's not of the armory,so he might not know exactly how many terminator armors the chapter has even from his captain rankl

Or...Maybe he's right.

The siege of Terra...The scouring...Dorn willingly throwing away most of his legion at the Iron cage...The second founding...And then 1 millenium and half of war....They might have actually expended all their terminator suits when they lose the full first company with no chance to salvage anything.

But we know termies suits are pretty damn hard to make, and that we have about 20+ founding to go. At some point they need to decide if termie armor is truly a priceless irreplaceable artificial OR just a giant pain in the ass to order from the mechanicum and hence highly prized. Because it cant be both.

Edit: the book makes a great deal how the Imperial fists went from 100k to 5-6k in chapters, that is allot of armor even accounting for the heavy fighting in the heresy and scouring.

Dont get me wrong i loved the TBA series, and this i a solid book, it simply appeared out to me in more places as weird then its predecessors.

Fen
18-04-2016, 15:34
Another question i have is...Should we consider the last wall protocol as a 2nd founding only thing?

Because....So far the all the characters seem to refer to second founding chapter when talking (the classic 3 being there since forever,the Excoriators from Legion of the Damned,the Soul Drinkers from their serie)...Save for the Iron knights,that were unknown founding and now pop up in this novel.

Now,this means they either are 2nd or 3rd founding...But if they are 3rd founding,why no mention of the executioners (i think the only known 3rd founding chapter out there,and well confirmed as 7th legion's scions) for example?Koorland even says to Thane to find the Soul Drinkers at the book's end,but no one else

Spellfire
18-04-2016, 19:46
I have to ask...while all of this is going on, where are the other Chapters?

Freak Ona Leash
18-04-2016, 19:50
Executioners not being there is most likely an oversight by Guy Haley. They are somewhat obscure, being mentioned only in the Imperial Armor series really, and obliquely reference in some of FW's Horus Heresy stuff. Also, it could simply be that they are so far away from everything right now (they reave and maraud around the edges of the galaxy, IIRC) that they are basically discounted due to issues with time and distance. Most likely just an oversight though. They could still show up later. I would like to see them, they are basically Conan the Space Marine, which is hilariously awesome.

DarkChaplain
18-04-2016, 19:54
I have to ask...while all of this is going on, where are the other Chapters?

Blood Angels were referenced last time as fighting Orks elsewhere. Don't worry, others will be there before the end. At least for the Beheading.

nagash66
18-04-2016, 19:58
Now,this means they either are 2nd or 3rd founding...But if they are 3rd founding,why no mention of the executioners (i think the only known 3rd founding chapter out there,and well confirmed as 7th legion's scions) for example?Koorland even says to Thane to find the Soul Drinkers at the book's end,but no one else

So far there is no reason to believe the third founding has happened.


I have to ask...while all of this is going on, where are the other Chapters?

All around the Imperium doing their thing, the books note that Iron Hands are on route to terra, the Blood Angels were amongst the first to successful take out a Ork attack moon and mentions of others like Ultramar being drowned in Orks has been made.

Basically they are fighting Orks all around the Galaxy while many no doubt may not even know of the crisis yet.

Plus dont forget, their are very very few of them in existence, it is the age of the second founding it is very possible the Imperium has less then 100k marines IN TOTAL.

Fen
18-04-2016, 20:20
So far there is no reason to believe the third founding has happened.
The third founding should have happened in the first year of M.32,so a few centuries before the Beast,that's what makes it strange

Freak Ona Leash
19-04-2016, 13:31
So far there is no reason to believe the third founding has happened.

The Third Founding takes place in the first years of m32, so should've already happened. Not to mention, the first High Executioner was Fafnir Rann, who was a captain of VII Legion during the Horus Heresy and so he must've been fairly old even then (unless he was a Dreadnought, which seems...unlikely?). It's not a terribly big deal either way. Would've been cool to see the Executioners taking Ork skulls though.

Also, finished the book yesterday. My favorite part: The longshanks wept, disbelieving at their salvation. The Space Marine nudged Marast away with its enormous boot.
"Non-standard human phenotype detected. Loathe the mutant. Terminate."

Haas curled up and clapped her hands over her ears as the Space Marines opened fire with their terrible weapons. The longshanks did not even have time to express their surprise before their fragile bodies were pulped by mass-reactive shells. The gunfire went on forever, the individual reports merging into one rolling booming. When it stopped, Haas was amazed to find she still lived. Her hands shook as she took them from her ears. The longshanks had been obliterated, reduced to a gory slick that dripped from the walls. Her ears hurt agonisingly and she cried out. The Space Marine swung its blocky helmet in her direction, pointing its bolter at her. She screamed again, and the Space Marine moved his bolter away from her. When he spoke to her it was muffled, as if her ears were stuffed with fabric.

‘Human survivor located. You, come with us.’ The warrior pointed a massive articulated finger at her, the segments sparking with a power field. ‘The Emperor protects.’

GavT
20-04-2016, 09:13
Another question i have is...Should we consider the last wall protocol as a 2nd founding only thing?

Because....So far the all the characters seem to refer to second founding chapter when talking (the classic 3 being there since forever,the Excoriators from Legion of the Damned,the Soul Drinkers from their serie)...Save for the Iron knights,that were unknown founding and now pop up in this novel.

Now,this means they either are 2nd or 3rd founding...But if they are 3rd founding,why no mention of the executioners (i think the only known 3rd founding chapter out there,and well confirmed as 7th legion's scions) for example?Koorland even says to Thane to find the Soul Drinkers at the book's end,but no one else

It is also possible that other Imperial Fists Successors are in existence but due to distance and the orks they were unable to respond to the Last Wall protocol...

Cheers,

Gav

Fen
20-04-2016, 09:30
That makes sense...But it's still strange for the characters to not even name drop them

Anyway,it's minor stuff :D

nagash66
20-04-2016, 09:34
It is also possible that other Imperial Fists Successors are in existence but due to distance and the orks they were unable to respond to the Last Wall protocol...

Cheers,

Gav

Yeah like the soul drinkers, who they specifically go looking for to 'unite the sons of dorn'. Which is the issue, if an author highlights the fact that they need EVERY successor and goes on to name them and make finding the missing one part of the plot, having one that is not even namedroped seems more like a mistake then anything else.


it's minor stuff :D


Oh yeah, book was solid and fun.

I think part of the issue is as people enjoy the series more and more, which makes the wait between books worse and worse, we are more likely to pick up and be annoyed by the minor things. Compared to the first couple which were 'wow, pretty fun series'.

ReconTrojan
20-04-2016, 21:30
This was my favorite so far of the series. I like how they portrayed the resentment from the human perspective of the aftermath of the HH. There was a subtle little line that wherever Space marines go it stirs up trouble with races that were dormant. Now you can see how complacency took root.

DarkChaplain
20-04-2016, 21:49
Yeah like the soul drinkers, who they specifically go looking for to 'unite the sons of dorn'. Which is the issue, if an author highlights the fact that they need EVERY successor and goes on to name them and make finding the missing one part of the plot, having one that is not even namedroped seems more like a mistake then anything else.

The Soul Drinkers are a second founding Chapter, meaning they'll likely have a higher status than 3rd founding ones would.
The Soul Drinkers are also mentioned only twice, the first time as one of the Chapters yet to arrive for the Last Wall, and even then more in context of how few they really are.


‘And then what? How many can we count upon? If all our brothers answer the call there will be fewer than four thousand of us.’
‘High Marshal Bohemond keeps his own Chapter numbers a mystery – how many of them might come? And we have yet no word from the Soul Drinkers. They are secretive but honourable, and will have set out in force the moment they received the call to the Last Wall.’

The second time right at the very end where Thane is sent to find the missing Soul Drinkers, a brother-Chapter from the 2nd Founding, and to "take [their] tidings to every Chapter that will listen". The reason the Soul Drinkers are directly mentioned is that we know they're from the 2nd Founding and are surprisingly absent. They didn't mention EVERY missing Chapter - just this one.

You'd have a point if they were naming more than that one Chapter, and from that list only the Executioners were missing. The Soul Drinkers seem more like an example, one of the originals they are counting on. We can expect there to be plenty of other 3rd Founding Chapters out there - none of which got namedropped either. At this point, all the named IF successors are 2nd Founding.

veterannoob
28-04-2016, 11:05
Finished it today. Loved it. Great pacing first two thirds really and still a pleasant finish. Was expecting another cliff hanger but can't have them all like that...well, yes you can:) Here's looking to book 6!

Promethius
02-05-2016, 21:38
Read it today. Great read. Love the combined space marine action.

Killgore
07-05-2016, 11:16
oops you are quite right ! The second black crusade that would be 597 M32 about 50 years later




Could be linked to Eldrad's warning about Chaos being the true enemy.