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Bergioyn
20-04-2016, 10:41
After returning to the hobby I've been thinking of making a custom marine chapter. I previously had ultras but I've grown a bit apart from them, and an abortive attempt at a diy chapter but I never really got into them so I'm excercising the ancient 40k tradition of retcon. The plan is to have them be cursed founding successor of one if the traitor legions (yes, I know it's been done with the blood ravens). I'm having trouble deciding on the Legion and how the geneseed should affect the chapter though. I know I don't want World Eaters or Word Bearers. Sons of Horus would be cool but I'm not sure if the geneseed of Horus would've been tried even in the cursed founding. Opinions?

Rogue Star
20-04-2016, 11:37
I find it a bit redundant... what can you do with the Traitor Legion gene-seed you can't do with loyalist?

Bergioyn
20-04-2016, 11:58
Well, Different fluff mostly. Just to clarify, I wouldn't outright state the ancestry but just imply it.

Rogue Star
20-04-2016, 12:14
Well, Different fluff mostly. Just to clarify, I wouldn't outright state the ancestry but just imply it.

Hey, it's your Chapter man, just offering my opinion, and within the context of the background, you can totally do it, the Blood Ravens and Chapters of the Cursed Founding are examples.

To rephrase my question - what benefit does it add to the background of your Chapter? Yes it makes them different, but it's like saying their descendants of the Missing Legions; it's different just to be different.

The Cursed Founding was an attempt to use the strengths of the Traitor Legions to be tweaked to benefit the Imperium of Man - often with an unforeseen side effect that that was worse that the problem they corrected. The Lamenters being cured of the Red Thirst/Black Rage, only to find themselves seemingly cursed.

Yes, the Sons of Horus' gene-seed might indeed be used... but what will the Imperium do to tweak it? What effect will that have? Also worth considering... do I need to use Traitor Legion gene-seed to do this?

As an example: perhaps the Magi of the Cursed Founding attempted to fix the flaws of the XVI Legion's gene-seed by encoding loyalty into them more harshly? This could result in them either being a Chapter which values self-control and has an iron-will... or when it failed or a flaw became apparent, fell ever more deeply into their savagery. It entirely depends what sort of Chapter you want at the end.

nagash66
20-04-2016, 14:27
With Rogue Star on this, no issue with Traitor Geneseed used, but two things need to be solid for it to work. Why was it used (i.e what did they hope to accomplished) and what did it actually do (i.e, cursed, mutations etc).

Then you have to deal with chapter knowledge on their geneseed/sire, and how they deal with it/lack of it.

Bergioyn
20-04-2016, 14:42
Excellent points both of you.

aprilmanha
20-04-2016, 15:24
As an example I used Blood Ravens for me Chapter.
I modelled them on the 4th company since nothing much was written for them and kept it simple.

As a Thousand Sons successor I put in a larger number of librarians for a start.
Then as I wanted to mix and match my units I decided that the company had lost their Navigator while on crusade and are lost, wandering about fighting all over trying to get back to the chapter.
Its kind of an excuse why they are using old armour and a mix of various gear as they are having to make it up as they go along and scavenge gear as they go.

totgeboren
20-04-2016, 16:51
There are already a few established loyalists-based-on-traitor-geneseed chapters out there. Blood Ravens as you mentioned are of TS decent, the Minotaurs were at least initially intended to be of WE stock, though when FW took them under their wing they turned towards more of an IW theme-wise in their development. Silver Skulls are arguably also IW, the Sons of Anatheus (sp?) were DG and so on.

I don't know of any SoH or WB loyalists, and I think the EC had basically emptied their geneseed vaults already when the HH began (so there would be almost no geneseed available to create a new chapter from). NL and AL geneseed seems rather pointless to use when you got RG geneseed, so I dunno.

As nagash66 said, you need to sort of explain why anyone would figure that traitor geneseed was the most appropriate to use for the task at hand. The Minotaurs seem to made explicitly to destroy other (loyalist) space marines, while the Blood Ravens seem to be based on surviving TS (who found refuge with perhaps the WS). If the Silver Skulls are of IW decent, then they are descendants of IW garrison forces swearing loyalty to Guilliman.
So, are they a late founding chapter like the Cursed Founding, or simply descendants of 'traitor' loyalists whose ancient past has become lost?

I have toyed a bit with the thought of making a DIY Chapter based on WB geneseed using BT rules. Religious nutters , just a change of god really. On the other hand, they could just be BT. The "traitor geneseed" part is just because I like the WB, and then I figured, why not just play WB then? And so I did. :P

Rogue Star
20-04-2016, 17:34
If the Silver Skulls are of IW decent, then they are descendants of IW garrison forces swearing loyalty to Guilliman.

Entirely new news to me! Where is the new lore that has the Silver Skulls as related to the Iron Warriors?

Bergioyn
20-04-2016, 17:57
Generally speaking, which do you think would cause less bitching, them being loyalist remnant of a traitor legion or being successor chapter?

totgeboren
20-04-2016, 18:17
Entirely new news to me! Where is the new lore that has the Silver Skulls as related to the Iron Warriors?

The theory has sprung from the fact that it is mentioned in the HH novels that many IW garrison forces did not join Perturabo in his rebellion, instead siding with the loyalists, and the Ultramar storyline heavily features a loyalist IW, whose skills are highly valued. He also happen to have a metal skull face mask that cannot be removed.
So, we have a bunch of IW on the Emperors side, and we have a loyalist IW hero who fights with the UM during the HH.
Fast forward to 40k, and we have a UM-like chapter that are a bit Greek mythology inspired (Oracle of Delphi), and who are called the Silver Skulls.

It's pretty close to the TS HH story that ends with a TS of the Blood Raven Chapter wanting to take the fight to the traitors. Though, a huge difference is that the Silver Skulls were probably not intended to be IW descendants from the start. It's something that simply could be an idea someone at GW had. Or it's just fans adding two and two together and getting five.
It's not official like the BR=TS thing at least.


Generally speaking, which do you think would cause less bitching, them being loyalist remnant of a traitor legion or being successor chapter?

The impression I got is that the later founding based on traitor geneseed all seem to have some sort of major flaw, something that will eventually cause them to be destroyed or declared traitors. The descendants of HH loyalists seem to be Ultramarines-with-a-slight-quirk, so I would try to keep to that separation. If you want them to be Ultramarines-with-a-slight-quirk, it makes little sense to have them as a late founding of Night Lords geneseed for example.

Rogue Star
20-04-2016, 18:24
Its kind of an excuse why they are using old armour and a mix of various gear as they are having to make it up as they go along and scavenge gear as they go.

Like aprilmanha puts, it's easier to help with this if you have an idea or goal for the Chapter beyond it just being based on Traitor gene-seed. To highlight what I put earlier...


I have toyed a bit with the thought of making a DIY Chapter based on WB geneseed using BT rules. Religious nutters , just a change of god really. On the other hand, they could just be BT. The "traitor geneseed" part is just because I like the WB, and then I figured, why not just play WB then? And so I did. :P

As Totgeboren points out zealotry is a genetic marker of the Word Bearers... but the Black Templars are also religious fanatics and they're a successor of the Imperial Fists, so it's not like you must use Lorgar's gene-seed to get a Chapter of fanatical zealots, their Founder can influence them (Blood Angels), or their homeworld (Space Wolves), or a major event (Crimson Fists). But if you made these Word Bearer related Astartes say, a political maneuver by the Adeptus Ministorum to create a Space Marine Chapter that truly worships the Emperor, work in a redemption angle, but have say, a curse that is continually undoing them (they rush in to save an Imperial Guard regiment... only for said regiment, inspired by them to stay and die to a man... or liberating a world from Chaos, giving the people a renewed faith in the Emperor... which results in them turning on the old government for allowing the warp to take root or the Inquisition needing to put down this dangerous devotion to Astartes...) suddenly, the Word Bearer part becomes intrinsic to the Chapter.

Just ideas. :)

Fangschrecken
21-04-2016, 17:57
Aren't there some chapters that already believe in the divinity of the emperor? My impression was that while the initial chapters founded from the loyalist legions didn't consider the emperor a god, subsequent foundings did include chapters that were/are believers.

Fen
21-04-2016, 18:26
Aren't there some chapters that already believe in the divinity of the emperor?

As far as i know,chapters believing in the Emperor's divinity were considered to be ultra-rare (from memory,i think there was only one mentioned before they fully retooled the BT into it but i cant remember the name right now) and them doing so didn't sit well with other Astartes

insectum7
21-04-2016, 19:05
Generally speaking, which do you think would cause less bitching, them being loyalist remnant of a traitor legion or being successor chapter?

Heh. An entirely aware and relevant question on the internet.


The theory has sprung from the fact that it is mentioned in the HH novels that many IW garrison forces did not join Perturabo in his rebellion, instead siding with the loyalists, and the Ultramar storyline heavily features a loyalist IW, whose skills are highly valued. He also happen to have a metal skull face mask that cannot be removed.
So, we have a bunch of IW on the Emperors side, and we have a loyalist IW hero who fights with the UM during the HH.
Fast forward to 40k, and we have a UM-like chapter that are a bit Greek mythology inspired (Oracle of Delphi), and who are called the Silver Skulls.


That's a really neat tidbit. I like that theory or the idea of something similar to that.

. . .

In general I'd say that going with loyalist chapter geneseed is the safer route. But as Rogue Star says there appears to be some wiggle room in the Cursed Founding. Even if most of the Cursed chapters wound up with horrible flaws, maybe your chapter doesn't have anything too faulty with them. I'd think you could bake in some minor flaws within reason, and add a little more tension to the story if you want. There are obviously chapters that are a little "off", notably the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves, and they clearly get away with it. Granted, those are First Founding chapters and get more leeway in terms of scrutiny and persecution. Your chapter could have flaws that are bringing the attention of the inquisition, but is still behaving acceptably well, or has the patronage of other well regarded chapters who attest to the loyalty of your own. In this way you could have a storyline that was akin to constant probation in the eyes of the Imperium, which might be interesting.

Or to take a very different tone, you could go the route of conspiracy, and have your chapter be under scrutiny of Inquisitors. Those Inquisitors all happen to be of the "radical" arm of the Inquisition, who try to harness the Warp for use against the Chaos. So even though your chapter is under constant "watch", they're doing questionable things under the "protection" of the Inquisition. That could get fun. You could have Allied Inquisitors looking on as your Librarians are studying Malefic Daemonology, and have very good reasons to conflict with other loyalist chapters.

ashc
21-04-2016, 19:09
I actually really like the Cursed and Dark Foundings - lots of really cool ideas tucked away to use there.

narradisall
21-04-2016, 20:04
DG? Could use their resilience and given them options for a somewhat grave appearance (or an excuse for MOAR skulls).

sunborn
22-04-2016, 12:38
a political maneuver by the Adeptus Ministorum to create a Space Marine Chapter that truly worships the Emperor, work in a redemption angle, but have say, a curse that is continually undoing them (they rush in to save an Imperial Guard regiment... only for said regiment, inspired by them to stay and die to a man... or liberating a world from Chaos, giving the people a renewed faith in the Emperor... which results in them turning on the old government for allowing the warp to take root or the Inquisition needing to put down this dangerous devotion to Astartes...) suddenly, the Word Bearer part becomes intrinsic to the Chapter.

I love that idea.

Bergioyn
24-04-2016, 10:19
I think I'll go with sons of horus successors (I'll have to work on the rest like the mentioned flaws and the like). I have a colour scheme already, but I'm strugling with the chapter symbol. Do you think an eye within a shield (or other designs with eye) would be too obvious?

totgeboren
24-04-2016, 10:36
I think it could work well enough. Would be interesting if they ran into the Wolves of Horus. They are basically veteran Legionnaires who are trying to return to/emulate the Luna Wolves days. :)

All Cing Eye
06-05-2016, 03:25
The Cursed Founding was an attempt to use the strengths of the Traitor Legions to be tweaked to benefit the Imperium of Man - often with an unforeseen side effect that that was worse that the problem they corrected. The Lamenters being cured of the Red Thirst/Black Rage, only to find themselves seemingly cursed.


I had always thought that the Cursed Founding was an attempt to improve the geneseed of space marines. Not necessarily using Traitor geneseed. I seem to remember that the mysterious and unrecorded Dark Founding was an actual attempt to create loyalist marines using Traitor geneseed.

Either way I'm pretty sure Sons of Horus geneseed would never get used.

Rogue Star
06-05-2016, 10:05
I had always thought that the Cursed Founding was an attempt to improve the geneseed of space marines. Not necessarily using Traitor geneseed. I seem to remember that the mysterious and unrecorded Dark Founding was an actual attempt to create loyalist marines using Traitor geneseed.

I might be confusing the two or it might be a case of retconning, I recall the "Cursed Founding" was in general an attempt to make even better Space Marines, yes, and believe they popped open the Traitor Legion's sealed stores to experiment with it, but it wasn't exclusively traitor gene-seed; see Lamenters.

The "Dark Founding" I believe was a given time and a date, but all the records of it and which Chapters were created during it were expunged - which is basically there to cover any Chapters that you don't want to neatly slot into one of the other Foundings.

Freak Ona Leash
06-05-2016, 16:14
As far as i know,chapters believing in the Emperor's divinity were considered to be ultra-rare (from memory,i think there was only one mentioned before they fully retooled the BT into it but i cant remember the name right now) and them doing so didn't sit well with other Astartes

It seems to become more common as the Foundings go on. The Fire Hawks, Red Hunters, Fire Angels, and Angels Revenant are all Chapters that worship the Emperor as a God. This does inspire distaste, even violent disagreement at times, in other Space Marine chapters. The First and Second Founding Chapters tend to not be theists, though the Black Templars are a notable exception. Even among the Black Templars, I suspect there are some who don't believe the Emperor to be a god. I know it's older fluff, but Grimaldus in the ADB stories about him is a staunch atheist. It's a bit of headcanon, but I like to imagine that Space Marine Chapters have theological and philosophical debates even within their own Chapters, similar to those that might exist in or between medieval monastic orders, and so a Chapter's Marines need not all embrace the same theology. So among Chapters like the Black Templars, there may be brethren who worship the Emperor as God, and others who revere him but do not worship him as a god, and there would exist philosophical and religious traditions for both. I imagine the more learned brethren may even engage in lively debate with one another as a form of intellectual and moral training; certainly, I could Chaplains and candidates for the Chaplaincy engaging in such a pursuit.

Like I said, mostly headcanon, but a good way to square the old background on the Black Templars with the new.

Fangschrecken
07-05-2016, 18:52
As an example of theological divisions: the Sons of Medusa are marines from the Iron Hands (and their successor chapters) who believed in the Moirae theology. That minute fluctuations in the Astronimicon were messages from the emperor. In stead of killing each other over it they broke up and were eventually granted a divorce and official recognition of their chapter from the High Lords of Terra. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Medusa

Bergioyn
08-05-2016, 23:39
It seems to become more common as the Foundings go on. The Fire Hawks, Red Hunters, Fire Angels, and Angels Revenant are all Chapters that worship the Emperor as a God. This does inspire distaste, even violent disagreement at times, in other Space Marine chapters. The First and Second Founding Chapters tend to not be theists, though the Black Templars are a notable exception. Even among the Black Templars, I suspect there are some who don't believe the Emperor to be a god. I know it's older fluff, but Grimaldus in the ADB stories about him is a staunch atheist. It's a bit of headcanon, but I like to imagine that Space Marine Chapters have theological and philosophical debates even within their own Chapters, similar to those that might exist in or between medieval monastic orders, and so a Chapter's Marines need not all embrace the same theology. So among Chapters like the Black Templars, there may be brethren who worship the Emperor as God, and others who revere him but do not worship him as a god, and there would exist philosophical and religious traditions for both. I imagine the more learned brethren may even engage in lively debate with one another as a form of intellectual and moral training; certainly, I could Chaplains and candidates for the Chaplaincy engaging in such a pursuit.

Like I said, mostly headcanon, but a good way to square the old background on the Black Templars with the new.
That's a headcanon I'm going to copy. It fits well, is interesting and doesn't contradict any official fluff.

Razios
13-05-2016, 21:45
That's a headcanon I'm going to copy. It fits well, is interesting and doesn't contradict any official fluff.

Also there is a point that the reverence the marine show sometimes cross into outright workship in everything but name, when you thing the emperor is the best of the best is pretty much a god and the rest is just pointless semantics, and if a thing is show again and again is that Marine tend to be reclutant of reflection, ether they are right or you are wrong

Not Applicable
27-05-2016, 07:32
When Kranon announced the Crimson Slaughter would leave the Eye of Terror instead of being martyrs. Capt Dzarton and the reminants of 4th company seized a ship and left the Crismon Slaughter vowing to remain loyalists and to spill blood next time they met. That happened in 937.M41 and now Dzarton is on a mission to kill his former Chapter Master, Kranon.

I was thinking about running a Crimson Sabres loyalist army using the Space Marines dex.

The thing is once a chapter is considered excommunicated can they ever be allies with other space marine? I was thinking of running a Crimson Sabre with Ultramarine chapter tactics, allied detachment along side Dark Angels in a hunt for the Crimson Slaughter. Would that ever happen? The loyalist Sabres wouldn't have rebuilt much, would they have scouts and terminators?

Fangschrecken
27-05-2016, 16:35
I cant recall and instance of chaos marines fighting along side loyalist marines or of chaos marines turning good and being readmitted to the Imperium. Not sure about the Soul Drinkers, though. Last I heard (and I haven't read the books) they were on trial for going rogue and it was left as a cliff hanger.

totgeboren
28-05-2016, 11:13
Well, didn't the Knights of Blood fight to defend Baal? They are traitors. Or, something like that at least.

Rogue Star
28-05-2016, 11:42
I cant recall and instance of chaos marines fighting along side loyalist marines

"The Long War" in the Beast Arises series. :D

Lord Damocles
28-05-2016, 17:01
Well, didn't the Knights of Blood fight to defend Baal? They are traitors. Or, something like that at least.
The 5th ed. Codex: Blood Angels (pg.17) does note that the Knights of Blood were 'careful never to take the field alongside the other Chapters'.


I'm not sure if being declared renegade (as the Knights of Blood were) is the same as being declared Excommunicate Traitoris (as the Crimson Sabres were). There are, after all, degrees of guilt.