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Kotrag
22-04-2016, 13:28
So, I was reading through Tome of Salvation one day and I came across this part in the opening sections written in an in-universe style. Essentially, it was detailing how the Norsii, Ungols, Roppsmen, and Frikings were all part of an earlier migration of humans which predates the arrival of Imperial tribes. Of these northern tribes, the Frikings were essentially wiped out, the Roppsmen were annihilated and driven to Kislev, and the Norsii apparently fought Sigmar, lost, fought their way through Ungol land, and settled in Norsca.

So, does this mean that the Norsemen are actually native to Chaos Wastes? If so, why did they leave in the first place? Does this also mean that they're related to the tribes of mutant humans that Malekith encountered when he first journeyed to the Realm of Chaos? Did they have a hand in annihilating the previous inhabitants of the Empire, as well? It seems to conflict with the depictions of the Norsii in the Tome of Corruption, where they were portrayed as being largely peaceful, and victimised by the Teutogens.

Also, I want to know whether the Ungols are related to the Kurgan, seeing as how a lot of fluff implies they both have affinity for each other. That and the fact that they're both based of European and Slavic misunderstanding about Central Asian peoples.

Arnizipal
23-04-2016, 01:17
So, does this mean that the Norsemen are actually native to Chaos Wastes?
I would say it's quite the opposite since they were driven north to the lands now called Norsca.

Kotrag
23-04-2016, 11:46
I would say it's quite the opposite since they were driven north to the lands now called Norsca.

I suppose I should have specified that this northern migration documented by Norse Dwarf chronicles details that these tribes came from the lands above Kislev and Nordland. It would make sense, anyway, since there were human tribes settled around the Northern gate in the Malekith novel, who had long been worshipers of Chaos. The Norsii had also been long time worshipers of Chaos, in fact, that's one of the things that made them unique in that northern migration, the Roppsmen worshipped Tor, the Ungols worshipped Dazh, and the Frikings worshipped... something. The Norsii could have come from the Wastes, and maybe they were driven out by Kurgan?

Arnizipal
23-04-2016, 16:08
I have Tome of Salvation as well.
Can you give me a page number so I can do some research? :)

Kotrag
23-04-2016, 18:52
I have Tome of Salvation as well.
Can you give me a page number so I can do some research? :)

Pg. 8 - 9, 14

Arnizipal
24-04-2016, 02:03
It says that the tribes that were part of the migrations came either from the Badlands or over the World Edge Mountains.
The Norsii might have come from the Eastern Steppes, which would make them related to the Kurgan (some speculate the Kislevites are also related to the Kurgan - see Tome of Corruption page 151).

Kotrag
24-04-2016, 10:28
It says that the tribes that were part of the migrations came either from the Badlands or over the World Edge Mountains.
The Norsii might have come from the Eastern Steppes, which would make them related to the Kurgan (some speculate the Kislevites are also related to the Kurgan - see Tome of Corruption page 151).

That's part of the Chronicle of Nurn Shieldbreaker and details the tribes who came through the Blackfire Pass. I'm talking about the Chronicle by Dread Yngvar Iovarsson, which states that the Norsii, Ungol, Friking, and Roppsmenn migration predates the Blackfire Pass migration by 20 years.

I don't know about the Norsii being related to the Kurgan. Modern Norscans and Kurgan have probably mixed, due to mutual raiding, trade networks, intermarriages, etc., but the description of how the Norsii and Kurgan encountered each other in the Legend of Sigmar novel made it seem as if the two had very little prior contact before the Norsii founded Norsca.

Arnizipal
24-04-2016, 15:54
That's part of the Chronicle of Nurn Shieldbreaker and details the tribes who came through the Blackfire Pass. I'm talking about the Chronicle by Dread Yngvar Iovarsson, which states that the Norsii, Ungol, Friking, and Roppsmenn migration predates the Blackfire Pass migration by 20 years.
I think it applies to both chronicles:

"Such small contradictions are common when one studies these early times. The only certain thing is that approximately 1000 years before the birth of Holy Sigmar, tribes of Humans migrated to, or were driven into, the Reik Basin.
Most fled the lands from across the World Edge Mountains, although it seems likely some also came from the Badlands." (emphasis mine)

Nowhere does it state any of the tribes came from the north.
Much like in the real world, civilisation started in the warm climates of the south in the Warhammer World.
Even before the collapse of the Chaos gates the poles were harsh and inhospitable lands so I doubt a tribe of humans could have evolved there.




I don't know about the Norsii being related to the Kurgan. Modern Norscans and Kurgan have probably mixed, due to mutual raiding, trade networks, intermarriages, etc., but the description of how the Norsii and Kurgan encountered each other in the Legend of Sigmar novel made it seem as if the two had very little prior contact before the Norsii founded Norsca.
True, though due to lack of a standardised background document many novels (accidentally) retcon established history form other sources.
Look at what happened to the Liber Necrics and the Von Carstein trilogy for example.

Kotrag
27-04-2016, 19:23
I think it applies to both chronicles:

"Such small contradictions are common when one studies these early times. The only certain thing is that approximately 1000 years before the birth of Holy Sigmar, tribes of Humans migrated to, or were driven into, the Reik Basin.
Most fled the lands from across the World Edge Mountains, although it seems likely some also came from the Badlands." (emphasis mine)

Nowhere does it state any of the tribes came from the north.
Much like in the real world, civilisation started in the warm climates of the south in the Warhammer World.
Even before the collapse of the Chaos gates the poles were harsh and inhospitable lands so I doubt a tribe of humans could have evolved there.

That doesn't really work for me because that paragraph you're quoting refers to the Hunberokin, Teutokin, and so on. To me, it doesn't seem as if that statement directly applies to the Norsii migrations. In any case, we know that some human tribes were situated at the poles, because we see Malekith encounter them in the War of the Beard novels, in addition, we know the Norsii conquered and subjugated native tribes of humans in the Chaos Wastes who were considered to be descendants of the earliest human tribes who became Beastmen. If the tribes emerged from the southeast like the others, what motivated them to keep pressing so far north to Nordland, Kislev, and Troll Country? Even the Teutogen never ranged further than Middenland, and that they only did for religious regions because the Flame of Ulric was there. You could explain it away for the Norsii, I suppose, with them wanting to be closest to the influence of the Dark Gods, but the others? And if the Norsii were emerging from the southeast and wanted to be closer to the Chaos Gods, why stop there? Why not go further until you reach Norsca itself? Besides, coming originally from the Chaos Wastes, and perhaps driving the Ungols, Frikings, and Roppsmen before them would explain how the Norsii were the only tribe to know anything about the Chaos Gods.


True, though due to lack of a standardised background document many novels (accidentally) retcon established history form other sources.
Look at what happened to the Liber Necrics and the Von Carstein trilogy for example.

Be that as it may (and I agree that what Warhammer lore really needed was chiropractic treatment, ala what Blizzard's doing with Warcraft Chronicles but less idiotic), but even earlier lore states that the first time the Norsii encountered the Kurgan was after Sigmar defeated them.