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Buddy Bear
26-04-2016, 22:39
Hastings recently posted that Age of Sigmar is making less money than Warhammer Fantasy did back when the decision to cancel it came down the pipe, which is itself less than what it was making due to the End Times sales bump. Any other time, the idea of Warhammer Fantasy coming back would be inconceivable, but now we have Specialist Games bringing back old games which have been dead for years and maintaining Lord of the Rings, which seemed like it was on its way out. And with the potential success of Total War: Warhammer, GW may see new life in the Warhammer Fantasy setting and want to cash in on that. So do you think it's possible that with the failure of Age of Sigmar that GW might opt to give Warhammer Fantasy a try again?

Deadthing
26-04-2016, 22:41
Someone will. But it won't be GW... or at least, not GW as we know it. Perhaps GW's successor company, or when it's operating as a subsidiary of another, wiser one.

Sete
26-04-2016, 22:41
No.

TheInsider. (https://disqus.com/by/disqus_csTHQPGkrU/) • 11 hours ago (http://natfka.blogspot.com/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-changes-due-to-sales.html#comment-2643341934)"I have already tried to post today, I'm waiting to see if Natfka has the good grace to allow it.
I never said AoS was selling as well as 40k, but it is doing better then WFB this comes from the horses mouth."

liasissodon
26-04-2016, 22:43
The game has been out for less than year. Others reports conflict with hastings. I suspect the truth is somewhere in between. Warhammer Fantasy is gone and buried. It was a great game and took a lot of my time and was amazing fun. I am however 1 of the many who came to embrace AoS after about 3 months of hesitation. It's a great game with wonderful fluff and I'm frankly having more fun with it than WFB. It hasn't failed and I'm sure it's here to stay.

Buddy Bear
26-04-2016, 22:46
The game has been out for less than year. Others reports conflict with hastings.

The only other report I know of is TheInsider on Natfka, and that guy has no history of rumors and his posting seemed more about being inflammatory than anything else. That and he made the claim that AOS was nearly on par with 40k, which is ludicrous and isn't reflected at all on the ICV2 list, which doesn't have AOS on it. And Hastings, who has years worth of trustworthy rumors behind him, is backed up by GW's recent abrupt about-face on having points in the game less than a year after it was released. That kind of move doesn't happen unless something's gone disastrously wrong.

daftpunkevo
26-04-2016, 22:46
It doesn't make sense to scratch the new IP from a business point of view.
Even if AoS is terrible and don't sell, a project like this is a big thing, and it wont be taken down.
Cutting the fantasy setting (WHFB now AoS) completely if a loss on all fantasy player and brand presence on the market.

Also i think I read that LON:GAW just had an FPO ? Which means either they want to open LOTS of one man store, or a lot of Financial investment for AoS is undertaken which means they won't back down on AoS just after the FPO or shares will plunder like never before, and having AoS sell at a loss for 5 years will be less of an issue than just scrapping it.

Drakkar du Chaos
26-04-2016, 22:46
No.

TheInsider. (https://disqus.com/by/disqus_csTHQPGkrU/) • 11 hours ago (http://natfka.blogspot.com/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-changes-due-to-sales.html#comment-2643341934)"I have already tried to post today, I'm waiting to see if Natfka has the good grace to allow it.
I never said AoS was selling as well as 40k, but it is doing better then WFB this comes from the horses mouth."



That guy is a ***** from GW middle management, i couldn't care less about what he's saying.

Holier Than Thou
26-04-2016, 22:49
Hastings recently posted that Age of Sigmar is making less money than Warhammer Fantasy did back when the decision to cancel it came down the pipe, which is itself less than what it was making due to the End Times sales bump. Any other time, the idea of Warhammer Fantasy coming back would be inconceivable, but now we have Specialist Games bringing back old games which have been dead for years and maintaining Lord of the Rings, which seemed like it was on its way out. And with the potential success of Total War: Warhammer, GW may see new life in the Warhammer Fantasy setting and want to cash in on that. So do you think it's possible that with the failure of Age of Sigmar that GW might opt to give Warhammer Fantasy a try again?

Yes I think that they will. AOS is (going by the vast majority of anecdotal evidence and inside information provided by Hastings) tanking. When GW games tank, they get cancelled. GW have shown several times, most recently with the "Last Chance To Buy (until we sell them quickly then we'll make some more and say it's the really last time to buy) debacle that they have no problem going back on what they have said if they think it'll make them money.

If they believe people will give them money for WFB, they will not hesitate to re-release it.

The bigger question is, would people come back if it was WFB but of the desperately low standard of AOS? I know I wouldn't.

stroller
26-04-2016, 22:49
I'd like to see Fantasy back, but, it's gone. I wouldn't be too distraught to be proved wrong, but I'd be astonished of that happened.

Buddy Bear
26-04-2016, 22:49
That guy is a ***** from GW middle management, i couldn't care less about what he's saying.

"AoS has overtaken WFB and is up there with 40k for sales and interest."

If he never said it was selling as well as 40k, then what does he mean when he says it's "up there with 40k for sales"?

Sete
26-04-2016, 22:50
Ill leave his full post here. I have as many reasons to believe him as i have on Hastings.
TheInsider. (https://disqus.com/by/disqus_csTHQPGkrU/) • 11 hours ago (http://natfka.blogspot.com/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-changes-due-to-sales.html#comment-2643341934)I have already tried to post today, I'm waiting to see if Natfka has the good grace to allow it.
I never said AoS was selling as well as 40k, but it is doing better then WFB this comes from the horses mouth.
I never attacked WFB fan's,or any other fans.
Go and read my posts in the other threads and see for yourselves.
To those of you who have taken my words and corrupted them to suit your own agenda, you are the very people that ruin the community, why you have done this is beyond me and is simply disgusting.
Hastings has no way of knowing GW financials that simply is nonsense.
Nor does anyone else, apart from the CEO and a few heads of department.
Thanks to those who have acted like decent people, and I will say this the future looks good.
Wait and see!
I'll probably not be posting here again as the amount of abuse I have suffered for telling the truth is not worth it.
I took my tid bits of info here first because I thought that Faeit had a much better community the other rumour sites and I was a fan, sadly I was wrong.
To the guys and girls that I have had fun with on here
Thanks for all the fish!

Pojko
26-04-2016, 22:51
I doubt it. AoS is here to stay.

And if AoS does die, what may end up replacing it won't resemble WHFB.

Buddy Bear
26-04-2016, 22:55
Ill leave his full post here:
TheInsider. (https://disqus.com/by/disqus_csTHQPGkrU/) • 11 hours ago (http://natfka.blogspot.com/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-changes-due-to-sales.html#comment-2643341934)I have already tried to post today, I'm waiting to see if Natfka has the good grace to allow it.
I never said AoS was selling as well as 40k, but it is doing better then WFB this comes from the horses mouth.
I never attacked WFB fan's,or any other fans.
Go and read my posts in the other threads and see for yourselves.
To those of you who have taken my words and corrupted them to suit your own agenda, you are the very people that ruin the community, why you have done this is beyond me and is simply disgusting.
Hastings has no way of knowing GW financials that simply is nonsense.
Nor does anyone else, apart from the CEO and a few heads of department.
Thanks to those who have acted like decent people, and I will say this the future looks good.
Wait and see!
I'll probably not be posting here again as the amount of abuse I have suffered for telling the truth is not worth it.
I took my tid bits of info here first because I thought that Faeit had a much better community the other rumour sites and I was a fan, sadly I was wrong.
To the guys and girls that I have had fun with on here
Thanks for all the fish!

The guy smells like a troll. He accuses Hastings of having no knowledge of GW financials (even though Hastings has years of being a proven rumor source) because that information is supposedly only available to the CEO and a few department heads, but despite having no record of being proven in rumors, he does have that information? And here again we also have repeated trolling on his part, with comments like "To those of you who have taken my words and corrupted them to suit your own agenda, you are the very people that ruin the community, why you have done this is beyond me and is simply disgusting." He's a troll.

Sete
26-04-2016, 22:57
Have no idea. But he did have some rumours spot on i think. Dont follow faeit too much these days.

Zywus
26-04-2016, 23:00
No I don't think it will.

AoS will trudge along for a while, circling the drain. When GW pulls the plug they may try some other fantasy endeavor, but it'll probably not bear much resemblance to the rank-n-flank game of the past.

To be honest though, I don't care much about if GW would try to bring it back. (Well I would care, but not about the actual game itself). Between them, 9th age and KoW already does the actual battle part of WHFB better than what actual WHFB ever did so long as I can remember.

Holier Than Thou
26-04-2016, 23:01
Have no idea. But he did have some rumours spot on i think. Dont follow faeit too much these days.

Were they possibly posted shortly after Hastings had posted them here?

Malagor
26-04-2016, 23:02
I voted no.
Simply out of pride will prevent them from going back to it. Wether or not they think AoS was a huge mistake or not, they will never admit to it.

Sete
26-04-2016, 23:03
Were they possibly posted shortly after Hastings had posted them here?
In case you didn't notice hastings posts did made the headlines in some sites like Spikeybits and BoLS.
He did say before hastings that AoS was selling more than WFB.
True or not no idea. I'm just riding the train until it stops.
If by any chance GW brought back WHFB, i would like a skirmish option. Not a fan of regimented battles.

Zywus
26-04-2016, 23:07
Have no idea. But he did have some rumours spot on i think. Dont follow faeit too much these days.
Which ones?

He's not on the Dakkadakka rumor tracker and there's a bunch of Faeit names on there.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/448304.page

Sete
26-04-2016, 23:12
As i said i don't follow Faeit much these days, but he did mention the points for AoS a while ago. More than that dont know. but if you read the comments people credit him a lot.

Zywus
26-04-2016, 23:17
Ah, so he doesn't have any confirmed accurate rumors.
Good to know.

(Please don't paste grey text BTW. It's unreadable on the default Warseer forum skin)

Sete
26-04-2016, 23:24
Ah, so he doesn't have any confirmed accurate rumors.
Good to know.


Your assumption.

Karak Norn Clansman
26-04-2016, 23:30
The very act of bringing back Warhammer Fantasy would win them back some customers. WHFB was their core IP for 35 years+. Why not go for the sure card after a failure born out of drastic risk-taking?

Yodhrin
26-04-2016, 23:31
No.

TheInsider. (https://disqus.com/by/disqus_csTHQPGkrU/) • 11 hours ago (http://natfka.blogspot.com/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-changes-due-to-sales.html#comment-2643341934)"I have already tried to post today, I'm waiting to see if Natfka has the good grace to allow it.
I never said AoS was selling as well as 40k, but it is doing better then WFB this comes from the horses mouth."




Hastings has been providing accurate rumours for literally years and almost certainly has contacts within GWHQ.

Naftka is a shameless clickbait merchant who alternates between reposting rumours from reliable people(ie Hastings, Harry, Atia, and Sad Panda) with some added safe-bet speculation tacked on, and reposting whatever nonsense people who email him claim without any attempt to verify its veracity(and that's his own line, trotted out whenever anyone points out that Naffy is less accurate than random chance - he can't be held responsible for being wrong, because he's just a "clearing house" passing on whatever he's told).

I know who I believe.

As for the OP, polls need an "Other" option. My vote is "Other": it's conceivable, but incredibly doubtful. AoS would have to be an absolute, total, Hindenburg-esque catastrohump and remain so for a fair period of time before GW would countenance the loss of face and possibly shareholder confidence that a "New Coke" moment would generate, and I doubt it will be. I don't think it will achieve the obvious aim of making GW more money than WHFB did, but I doubt it will end up actually being unprofitable, so I'd expect them to keep it ticking along with a more modest release schedule for at least another couple of years, and probably left in limbo for a few more years after that, much as they did with Specialist Games. Only then could I see GW bringing it back of their own volition. There's a very small chance it could return sooner(like, 2 years instead of 5-10, not tomorrow by any stretch of the imagination) if someone at Forgeworld/SGS decides to champion a convincing "Heresy for Fantasy" pitch, but given the paltry resources directed towards Warhammer Forge I don't think there actually are any huge Old World fans at FW/SGS, not in the same way they had armoured vehicle/IG fans or Heresy fans.

So yeah, technically possible, but in anything other than the very long term an extremely unlikely prospect.

silverstu
26-04-2016, 23:31
I think WFB could well come back without AoS necessarily having to fail- if they are bringing back Epic, BB, BFG etc I think they can bring back wfb in some form, maybe running parallel with AoS.

Sete
26-04-2016, 23:33
Hastings has been providing accurate rumours for literally years and almost certainly has contacts within GWHQ.

Naftka is a shameless clickbait merchant who alternates between reposting rumours from reliable people(ie Hastings, Harry, Atia, and Sad Panda) with some added safe-bet speculation tacked on, and reposting whatever nonsense people who email him claim without any attempt to verify its veracity(and that's his own line, trotted out whenever anyone points out that Naffy is less accurate than random chance - he can't be held responsible for being wrong, because he's just a "clearing house" passing on whatever he's told).

I know who I believe.

Just sharing points of view ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Zywus
26-04-2016, 23:34
Your assumption.
You're the one claiming that he had "some rumours spot on", but hasn't shown it.

Until I see otherwise I will indeed assume that he doesn't have any confirmed accurate rumors. And quite reasonably so I daresay.

jesper.adamsson.3
26-04-2016, 23:35
Yes. But not as a resurrected 8th. Rules wont be the same but I believe there will be a WFB set in the Old world within a few years if AOS sales are so abyssmal as some claim.

They might even call it The world that was Battletome. New rules for waging war in The world that was with your AOS warband!




Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

Sete
26-04-2016, 23:38
You're the one claiming that he had "some rumours spot on", but hasn't shown it.

Until I see otherwise I will indeed assume that he doesn't have any confirmed accurate rumors. And quite reasonably so I daresay.

I claimed? Nope.
I said "I think", which reveals uncertainty. I know about the points because i saw that rumour.
More than that i cant claim.
Again your assumption. No matter how reasonable you might think it is.
I dont know his reliability.
But a few comments implied that he had shared more info because one of the comments said for him to keep posting "Juicy AoS rumours".
So it is my assumption that he delivered more rumours.

Zywus
26-04-2016, 23:43
I claimed? Nope.
I said "I think", which reveals uncertainty. I know about the points because i saw that rumour.
More than that i cant claim.
Again your assumption. No matter how reasonable you might think it is.
Aye, you did say you "think" he had rumours spot on. Sorry for the misrepresentation ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I will assume that the rumormonger that has so far not been shown to me to have ever made a correct prediction, has no existing record of having ever made a correct prediction.

Sete
26-04-2016, 23:46
Aye, you did say you "think" he had rumours spot on. Sorry for the misrepresentation ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I will assume that the rumormonger that has so far not been shown to me to have ever made a correct prediction, has no existing record of having ever made a correct prediction.

Dont know about that. I hang around War of Sigmar nowadays since Atia info is reliable. And the comments are toxic free.
Ah and he also shared this yesterday i think:
Tomb Kings and Breonnians as well as many missing unit's like Wardancers (That we're mentioned by name, seems that folks love those deadly dancers of pointy eared doom) are not "gone" but will be re done and re released in a new shiny form.

I would love a bretonia inspired faction personally.

Zywus
26-04-2016, 23:57
Dont know about that. I hang around War of Sigmar nowadays since Atia info is reliable. And the comments are toxic free.
Atia is indeed reliable. It's even corroborated by the dakkadakka rumor tracker (from which this "TheInsider" is absent:

Atia - Total rumors:
(26 TRUE) / (0 FALSE) / (1 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE) - Updated 2/29/2016

If the comments at Atia are toxic free, I guess you're at your best behavior while there? A shame we can't all just be a happy loving family on Warseer for some reason, isn't it?

Sete
27-04-2016, 00:03
Atia is indeed reliable. It's even corroborated by the dakkadakka rumor tracker (from which this "TheInsider" is absent:


If the comments at Atia are toxic free, I guess you're at your best behavior while there? A shame we can't all just be a happy loving family on Warseer for some reason, isn't it?

I'm always at my best behavior ;)
Also shared in my previous post a rumour he put up yesterday.
Only time will tell.

Buddy Bear
27-04-2016, 00:05
but if you read the comments people credit him a lot.

I remember commenters thinking Nightfury was a reliable source, and he was roundly wrong about everything, saying there wouldn't be a new Eldar, Space Marine, or Tau codex, and they all came out in the subsequent months. Fake rumor mongers periodically appear on Natfka and many commenters automatically believe them if they claim to have inside knowledge.

Sete
27-04-2016, 00:09
I remember commenters thinking Nightfury was a reliable source, and he was roundly wrong about everything, saying there wouldn't be a new Eldar, Space Marine, or Tau codex, and they all came out in the subsequent months. Fake rumor mongers periodically appear on Natfka and many commenters automatically believe them if they claim to have inside knowledge.
Ah yes i remember nightfury. quite a character.
Back then Lords of War gaming were giving him some flak.

Lord Malorne
27-04-2016, 00:13
Not likely, I do hope they make a rank and file system again, though I think its unlikely they will, sadly, I think this summer with the 3 ways to play will be the maker or breaker of AoS, though that itself will need some time to show results, can't expect a definitive answer within a few months, so likely will have to see again this time next year if it paid off, really do miss rank and file though, so personally I will be playing 8th edition :/

TheKingInYellow
27-04-2016, 00:53
So Sete is TheInsider then? I mean you've heard of Nightfury's reputation but you have no idea who Hastings is or why anyone would believe him?

Yeah, right.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Kakapo42
27-04-2016, 01:02
As much as I love Warhammer Fantasy, I think the realistic outcome is that it won't come back. Even if AoS fails (which seems to have a good chance of happening, but it's still not yet over for them just yet), I'd think it's more likely that GW simply ends it's fantasy wargaming altogether, or releases some new monstrosity that's still no proper substitute for Warhammer Fantasy (which in fairness died when the first ET book was released in my eyes).

It seems that GW doesn't want to bring back the good things it had (not even things like Warmaster or Battlefleet Gothic. Whatever things their new specialist department might release, they will not be the same Specialist Games that I fell in love with). It will be up to the community to keep Warhammer alive.

Tarrell
27-04-2016, 02:48
While I love the old world, and would like nothing more than AoS miss direction to be over, I highly doubt it. GW are stubborn bastards that refuse any critical feedback more likely they would first try pumping more money behind AoS an attempt a; v2.0 with some rules taken from fantasy and more models released, etc, etc.
Or they drop AoS in favor for smaller games and 40/30K or even try a 50K inspired universe.

Dosiere
27-04-2016, 03:10
Ill leave his full post here. I have as many reasons to believe him as i have on Hastings.
TheInsider. (https://disqus.com/by/disqus_csTHQPGkrU/) • 11 hours ago (http://natfka.blogspot.com/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-changes-due-to-sales.html#comment-2643341934)I have already tried to post today, I'm waiting to see if Natfka has the good grace to allow it.
I never said AoS was selling as well as 40k, but it is doing better then WFB this comes from the horses mouth.
I never attacked WFB fan's,or any other fans.
Go and read my posts in the other threads and see for yourselves.
To those of you who have taken my words and corrupted them to suit your own agenda, you are the very people that ruin the community, why you have done this is beyond me and is simply disgusting.
Hastings has no way of knowing GW financials that simply is nonsense.
Nor does anyone else, apart from the CEO and a few heads of department.
Thanks to those who have acted like decent people, and I will say this the future looks good.
Wait and see!
I'll probably not be posting here again as the amount of abuse I have suffered for telling the truth is not worth it.
I took my tid bits of info here first because I thought that Faeit had a much better community the other rumour sites and I was a fan, sadly I was wrong.
To the guys and girls that I have had fun with on here
Thanks for all the fish!





Depending on when you are comparing AoS to WFB, I guess it could be true. Considering that aside from the End Times WFB had very few releases and almost no support of any kind for a good long while. Rumors about AoS really killed the game before, during, and especially after the end times. WFB sales in the first half of 2015 were truly abysmal in all likelihood, for example. Besides, I've contributed more to AoS sales than I have to WFB since my Empire got their 8th army book. The fact that it's entirely for KoW to flesh out some of my Empire and Orc units doesn't matter to GW, and I bet there have been many people buying things for their old armies.

What I do find interesting is that he says no one can know GW financials for certain but he claims he does? Unless he is actually one of the department heads he seems to claim he doesn't really know either. Doesn't make much sense.

scruffyryan
27-04-2016, 03:18
Yes. But not as a resurrected 8th. Rules wont be the same but I believe there will be a WFB set in the Old world within a few years if AOS sales are so abyssmal as some claim.

They might even call it The world that was Battletome. New rules for waging war in The world that was with your AOS warband!




Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

If they do this they'd best get used to that game also not selling...AoS has terrible rules

m1acca1551
27-04-2016, 03:24
I voted yes because there is a chance that it will come back but not from GW itself, I can see the IP being leased to a company that will provide the rules and lore based on what GW wishes but GW itself will retain miniature sales.

Very neat and easy way, GW makes money, old customers may be tempted to come back to the fold...

All wishful thinking really... Would love to have WFB back, as for AoS it can be kept or scrapped for all I care

Chikout
27-04-2016, 03:49
I have said a few times that the way to bring warhammer fantasy back is as a kind of warhammer historical set during the war of the beard. This way they do not have to retcon the end times and they could have it work alongside Aos in the way 30k does with 40k. There is no way they will just bring back 8th edition.

GreyhawkGuardian
27-04-2016, 03:50
I voted no, because I don't see why they would, without Age of Sigmar tanking so hard that it leaves a crater in the ground.

Even with all of the problems it has from a setting perspective, I am forced to begrudgingly admit that it does have a lot more directions you could take it. There is...an attraction to having a big empty sheet of paper to start scribbling on creative wise. So, even if Age of Sigmar continues to flag, I can see GW continuing to stick with it, just because of that. They could turn Age of Sigmar into anything from here.

Deadthing
27-04-2016, 04:07
I voted no, because I don't see why they would, without Age of Sigmar tanking so hard that it leaves a crater in the ground.

So... like now, you mean. So you vote... yes?

herjan1987
27-04-2016, 04:46
GW has 6 years to reboot Warhammer Fantasy. Its starts on the 24th day of the next month, when Total War: Warhammer launches. I am only here because TW:W indroduced to Fantasy. Formely I known some Warhammer: Mark of Chaos videos, but I didnt know the world behind it. WFB setting is interesting I would like spends some more on it.

jesper.adamsson.3
27-04-2016, 05:52
If they do this they'd best get used to that game also not selling...AoS has terrible rules

Well its GW so one shouldn't expect them to bring it back the right way. You have to be realistic :)

Lanparth
27-04-2016, 06:12
I don't really post much anymore. I typically only pick up a mini every once in a while that I want to paint, and its extremely rare (I've bought one mini since AOS came out)

I sincerely doubt they'd jump back to WHFB. The problem is, if AOS fails, they'll abandon the fantasy line, but realistically that'd be the beginning of the end. GW is flailing from problem to problem, ever raising prices as they stumble about in a drunken state.

So I voted no. Not because it shouldn't come back, but because GW is not a company really able to bring it back. The GW of the past 3 decades isn't the GW of today any longer. Real talent has long abandoned that company, the people with big ideals and big visions (no, AOS is not one of those big visions. Its a child's game, yet somehow is centred around bloodshed and violence? Golly. That'll work great.) have long since moved on. They couldn't launch Age of Sigmar, they won't be able to launch a new Fantasy Line. I'd be genuinely surprised if they could launch almost any product successfully.

Even 30k is a different beast than this, because 30k is literally all marines. It's really a one faction game, with some flavour splashed around the different factions, but they're all inherently the "same". I wouldn't trust these incompetents to put out any major, multifaction game with any degree of success.

Sete
27-04-2016, 08:19
So Sete is TheInsider then? I mean you've heard of Nightfury's reputation but you have no idea who Hastings is or why anyone would believe him?

Yeah, right.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk
The hen as jumped the fence, I repeat the hen has jumped the fence!
Yes I have heard of Nightfury. As I said Lords of War Gaming on was giving him flak on facebook.
You guys are experts on blowing things out of proportion.

Kevin Mack
27-04-2016, 08:36
I voted no since they kind of went all in on AOS what with the 10 foot tall gold Sigmarine statue they put on the front lawn and all.

Ludaman
27-04-2016, 08:42
The hen as jumped the fence, I repeat the hen has jumped the fence!
Yes I have heard of Nightfury. As I said Lords of War Gaming on was giving him flak on facebook.
You guys are experts on blowing things out of proportion.

Here are my thoughts:

I live in Southern California and travel quite a bit for work. I've visited lots of Los Angeles, Orange County and San Diego game stores.

5 years ago you would find a small collection of Warhammer Fantasy miniatures in most stores and if you asked the owner/manager they would tell you about a small group of guys who played and when the next tournament was. Every store I've visited in the last year has no models for AoS on display beyond the starter set, the owners mention there are a couple guys that come play "every once in a while" and there has been no mention of tournaments. The largest game store in Los Angeles has zero regular players (I visit this store often).

Maybe AoS is crushing it in Europe, but as far as I've heard it's tanking hard in the US.

I'm far more inclined to believe Hastings who is just about as reliable as they come, vs some Nafka troll.

That being said I appreciate you passing the info along, although you have been a bit trolly yourself ;)

Horace35
27-04-2016, 08:43
GW has 6 years to reboot Warhammer Fantasy. Its starts on the 24th day of the next month, when Total War: Warhammer launches. I am only here because TW:W indroduced to Fantasy. Formely I known some Warhammer: Mark of Chaos videos, but I didnt know the world behind it. WFB setting is interesting I would like spends some more on it.
I think it is possible towards the end of that period but I very much doubt it would be warhammer as we know it. I think that is dead and buried. Some twisted AoS/wfb hybrid to try and win back the lost crowds.

It does make me chuckle how quite a few people are blinkered to the fact AoS is doing poorly. So much so that Sete even questions Hastings info. Not sure there has been any better source of info than him for the last god knows how many years

I can see AoS struggling on for a few years but unless something really remarkable happens I don't see how it can ever be substantially more profitable than wfb was (especially because of the resentment it has caused). Which dooms it to the same fate that befell wfb

Holier Than Thou
27-04-2016, 08:43
The hen as jumped the fence, I repeat the hen has jumped the fence!
Yes I have heard of Nightfury. As I said Lords of War Gaming on was giving him flak on facebook.
You guys are experts on blowing things out of proportion.

I don't think anyone is blowing anything out of proportion. The majority of your posts in all of the threads I've seen seem to consist of you making some bold statement then as soon as someone questions it, you say something along the lines of "I didn't realise, I'll need to Google that." or "Everyone's taking it too seriously." or similar. If your comments truly are just misinformed, maybe you should try googling them first before posting?

GrandmasterWang
27-04-2016, 08:53
No.

TheInsider. (https://disqus.com/by/disqus_csTHQPGkrU/) • 11 hours ago (http://natfka.blogspot.com/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-changes-due-to-sales.html#comment-2643341934)"I have already tried to post today, I'm waiting to see if Natfka has the good grace to allow it.
I never said AoS was selling as well as 40k, but it is doing better then WFB this comes from the horses mouth."





Fascinating.

Alas i dont follow discuss so i cant read anything he has said by following that link. I think you need to be a discuss member?

Who is "TheInsider" supposed to be and why is what he says worth anything?

His statement singling out Hastings on having no idea on the financials is interesting. He says "from the horses mouth (him)" but unless he is a department head (severely unlikely) then he says himself in the same paragraph about Hastings that he has no knowledge.

Most pertubing...


Need moar info on this Insider cat. Never heard of him before.



Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Herzlos
27-04-2016, 09:01
Warhammer is not going to come back; they might try and turn AoS back into Warhammer, but that's about it. I really don't think they have the expertise to produce something that will bring gamers back to them whatever they do.

Klingsoer
27-04-2016, 09:05
Here are my thoughts:
Maybe AoS is crushing it in Europe, but as far as I've heard it's tanking hard in the US.


Surely not, i personaly do not know one single person playing AOS. In Germany it has been tried to organisze some tourneys and these crashed hard and mostly all have been cancelled on the spot. The others trundled on with 3-4 players. Since at least 5-6 month there is NO tournament for AOS sheduled in Germany. And there is nothing to be seen that this is going to change in the future. On the other side i have been to 9th Age team tournament with 112 player the last weekend.

I talked to several independt shopowners, not a single GW Fantsay miniatures sold the last 2 months and before that only some deals to finish armies.... Xwing is the big dealer, afterwards Saga, Malifaux, Infinity, Frostgrave ..... Maby its different in UK, but Germany can be scratched fully from the AOS landscape completly.

Sete
27-04-2016, 09:09
So let me get this straight. I post info that was on a rumour site that contradicts what you want to believe and you start bullying me. I dont know who theinsider is, im not obliged to know every rumour mongerer out there, nor their reputation. I posted to add to the conversation. Now im being a bit trolly, and faking personas. For me you are blowing things out of proportion.
I didnt follow fantasy too much, nor do I need to know the name of every rumour mongerer out there.
My BOLD statements? Ah love it.
Like I said before I HOPE its selling well and I HOPE it does not tank like Hastingas said.
If I don't know something I wont talk out of my ass. Hence didn't know or ill google. Which was about Frostgrave.
You wont bully me out of the site just because I dont agree with something.
I just want us to be a big happy family ;)

Sete
27-04-2016, 09:14
Ok I may joke a bit. Not with the intention of being trolly tho.

2DSick
27-04-2016, 09:28
I honestly don't have any faith that GW have sufficient talent to revive Whfb. I'd rather it stayed dead as a great memory.

Lanparth
27-04-2016, 09:37
I honestly don't have any faith that GW have sufficient talent to revive Whfb. I'd rather it stayed dead as a great memory.

These guys are utterly useless. They ran all the people who understood good game development out of the company, (no, not Matt Ward. Some people get what they deserve), and now they can't actually compete. They don't have the fundamentals to reproduce a system like Warhammer. They are disconnected and incapable. In other words, you're right. Its kinda best that WHFB kinda... says dead. It's just good to know that AOS will join it in the grave.

Herzlos
27-04-2016, 09:40
The only real hope is if they outsource the development to someone competent, like River Horse (Allesios new company). I doubt they'll do that since they'd lose a lot of control, but they are making a lot of surprising decisions in desperation.

Lanparth
27-04-2016, 09:43
The only real hope is if they outsource the development to someone competent, like River Horse (Allesios new company). I doubt they'll do that since they'd lose a lot of control, but they are making a lot of surprising decisions in desperation.

They won't. The IP is their real value, and outsourcing a core game? That would cause investors to freak. They'll flail about impotently instead of fixing it, just watch.

Herzlos
27-04-2016, 09:48
Exactly. It's the only sane thing to do, but they won't be able to do it.

Of course, I'm sure they'd be able to offer some of the old guard something that'd encourage them to rejoin. That'd be pretty painful though as they'll all pretty successful with their own things.

UndeadKing
27-04-2016, 09:54
Lmao I remember when fantasy was first released, sold out everywhere within its first year, had 30+ years of fluff etc. Great game.........

Oh wait no, no new game has that.

Fantasy is thankfully dead, AoS are where games workshop are at and its where they'll stay. As for how well its doing unless Hastings visits every gw well yeah



Fantasy lasted over 30+ years selling awfully or not at all and GW kept it going. AoS wont just be dropped. GW will drag its ass out just to spite most of you and based on certain people............

Lanparth
27-04-2016, 10:00
Lmao I remember when fantasy was first released, sold out everywhere within its first year, had 30+ years of fluff etc. Great game.........

Oh wait no, no new game has that.

Fantasy is thankfully dead, AoS are where games workshop are at and its where they'll stay. As for how well its doing unless Hastings visits every gw well yeah



Fantasy lasted over 30+ years selling awfully or not at all and GW kept it going. AoS wont just be dropped. GW will drag its ass out just to spite most of you and based on certain people............


I actually think they're far more likely to just kill all the whole fantasy line to be honest.

Zywus
27-04-2016, 10:02
Lmao I remember when fantasy was first released, sold out everywhere within its first year, had 30+ years of fluff etc. Great game.........

Oh wait no, no new game has that.

Fantasy is thankfully dead, AoS are where games workshop are at and its where they'll stay. As for how well its doing unless Hastings visits every gw well yeah

And I remember when fantasy was first released and already had a huge range of models, a existing customer base of hundreds of thousands, and resources enough to crank out colored books and game supplements up the whazooo.

Oh wait no, it didnt. Only AoS did. And despite all this it's not doing better than it is.


Frostgrave, Gates of Antares, Maelstroms edge. Those are games that's actually newly released, that had to start from the bottom. Strangely enough fans of those game don't claim that they might be good in 30+ years. They say they are good now and will only get better with more releases.


Fantasy lasted over 30+ years selling awfully or not at all and GW kept it going. AoS wont just be dropped. GW will drag its ass out just to spite most of you and based on certain people............
Wierd that GW could keep fantasy going for over 30 years when it apparantly sold "awfully or not at all"

If GW wants to keep throwing away good money after bad by dragging AoS along just to spite us, then they're stupider that I could imagine. But it's their money to waste of course.

TheLionReturns
27-04-2016, 10:03
I would be amazed if warhammer came back. It failed and was canned. Why would you do they same thing again and expect a different result? Because a few people on the Internet are angry? As I understand it rumours point to a decline since mid 6th. They had two goes at fixing it and it still didn't get to where they wanted it.

AoS is here to stay for a couple of years I guess and things will be tweaked to try and boost it, like the three ways to play. Should the failure continue I suspect that there will be no fantasy main game but rather some board games and the likes with a fantasy setting.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Lanparth
27-04-2016, 10:04
And I remember when fantasy was first released and already had a huge range of models, a existing customer base of hundreds of thousand, and resources enough to crank out colored books and game supplements.

Oh wait no, it didnt. Only AoS did. And despite all this it's not doing better than it is.

How long will this silly excuse be trotted out? AoS is a new ruleset but no game in existence has ever gotten started with so much resources already in place backing it up.

Frostgrave, Gates of Antares, Maelstroms edge. Those are games that's actually newly released, that had to start from the bottom. Strangely enough fans of those game don't claim that they might be good in 30+ years. They say they are good now and will only get better with more releases.

And for good reason. They're developers aren't as arrogant, complacent, and incompetent as GW is.

They're not stupid enough to have a ****** clone of 40k, with a Fantasy twist, and a reviled backstory and a bitter consumer base. And if they were that stupid, they'd be gone much faster than the long, slow, sad decline GW is going through.

UndeadKing
27-04-2016, 10:07
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w581/KhadorBlood/Mobile%20Uploads/C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Tem p_Saved%20Images_13062042_355100381280917_89659605 6422341316_n_zpszuhdb877.jpg (http://s1331.photobucket.com/user/KhadorBlood/media/Mobile%20Uploads/C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Tem p_Saved%20Images_13062042_355100381280917_89659605 6422341316_n_zpszuhdb877.jpg.html)

Alaska
27-04-2016, 10:15
Didn't they bury WHFB for substandard performance? I don't think they will go back for the rotten fish even if AoS is not doing well at this moment. Probably they will tinker the rules, offer discounts and go something like "Three Way to Play" to expand current base. Sales can be increased if fun rules and attractive minis are provided(in reasonable price). AoS seems to have more room for fix and releasing new stuffs, as a new IP.

dalezzz
27-04-2016, 10:21
The success of the various warhammer computer games would suggest that there's plenty of value in the ip, GW would be stupid indeed not to release something set in the warhammer world to coincide with it ............ It's not gonna happen is it :p

Buddy Bear
27-04-2016, 10:28
They buried Warhammer Fantasy because it wasn't making as much money as they wanted it to make, not because it wasn't turning a profit, which it was. In 2012 it was the third best selling game on the market and 2013 it was the fourth best selling game on the market. Did it have problems? Sure. But those problems, ultimately, are GW wide problems and part of the reason why 40k is no longer the best selling game on the market and has now been relegated to #2. The decline wasn't because of an inherent problem specific to Fantasy.

Sete
27-04-2016, 10:30
The success of the various warhammer computer games would suggest that there's plenty of value in the ip, GW would be stupid indeed not to release something set in the warhammer world to coincide with it ............ It's not gonna happen is it :p

I think a computer game has an wider audience than Tabletop. Its not a fair comparison to be made.
Also for example plenty of people know Creative Assembly for their work in the Total War series. Plenty of people that dont know Warhammer Fantasy will be exposed to it.
I think its because they canned WHFB that they allowed the IP to be used by a well known video game company.
My 2 cents.

Lanparth
27-04-2016, 10:34
Didn't they bury WHFB for substandard performance? I don't think they will go back for the rotten fish even if AoS is not doing well at this moment. Probably they will tinker the rules, offer discounts and go something like "Three Way to Play" to expand current base. Sales can be increased if fun rules and attractive minis are provided(in reasonable price). AoS seems to have more room for fix and releasing new stuffs, as a new IP.

The problem is, its an IP no one really wants. Chaos is still viable in it, because Chaos is always Chaos from a GW standpoint, but they've created a lot of content that's genuinely just not really appealing to their fanbase. How many Space Marine players, want Space Marines, but made by Magic in a fantasy setting? You'd be surprised to guess, not many. Why, do you ask? Why would they not want Space Marines but magic? Because there is no hook to drag them into Sigmarines. For Warhammer 40,000, the Space Marine was born because of being the right product, at the right time, and with the right hook.

Warhammer 40,000 is a setting you can relate to for multiple reasons. It feels like a living, breathing world. Its an evolution of our own future, if only dark, twisted, and sci-fi-fantasy-esque. The idea behind the God Emperor, the Primarchs, and the Space Marines is relatively (though not exactly exclusively) unique, especially when it was being pushed. It combined the right elements. Orks, Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids and others are all interesting concepts. Orks, the rogue space weapons made by a long dead race to fight a war that ended in seemingly another time, and are now these strange, abusive monsters who plague the galaxy. Eldar, the aloof ancient race, struggling for survival, but still feel at least somewhat distinct from Elves. Necrons, the ancient threat the Orks were built to fight, slowly rising. Tyranids. Well, they can't all be interesting I guess :P

But anyway, the Space Marine is interesting, despite being an overpowered beast, because of his struggle. Taken as a child, forged into a warrior meant to fight and die to protect a dying empire, built on lies and propaganda. We can relate to him in many respects as well, but at the same time he is foreign, alien to us. Its an interesting enough character, people buy into him.

What people don't buy into, is a random magical world built on a comet, where things slowly poof into existence, and then super warriors are made to fight teh badguyz. Those bad guys are real bad, just like in 40k, only not as bad as 40k because they're not exactly Chaos Space Marines. But the demons are still rawr. So these magical Space Marines are cool because... uhm... you like Space Marines don't you!? Please buy them. Please buy them like you'll buy space marines.

The ascetic looks pitiful. The storyline, paraphrased or otherwise, is tired, boring, and uninteresting. It strikes as lacking in creativity, and a desperate ploy to get Fantasy Space Marines, hoping for the same kind of market that they get in the sci fi realm.

This thing doesn't have much to grow on, because Sigmarines are not as interesting as Space Marines. They won't be as interesting as Space Marines. They don't have the kind of backstory, or interest, or ascetic. They are a poor man's (though ironically, not for the price) Space Marines. People know this, and respond accordingly as well. Then what are you left with? Chaos, which is grossly overpriced. Can't go wrong with Chaos, but even then, what's the point of these Chaos Guys fighting over worlds that don't really matter? Orruks (**** you GW), who are... Power Armour / American Football Armour wearing Orks? Well, okay. The design for them looks deerrrrm, but at least they're Orks. I had those before, in 40k, and Fantasy. And finally NAKED MIDGETS. Because you know what any game needs? An army of naked short people.

Yea, I can see all the potential for growth in this.

Only I can't.

It's hamstrung by bad fluff, because the people who are talented at world building, left GW. Other authors are busy with the successful property, which they are slowly watering down anyway.

This company is dumb. Don't expect much from it.

Horace35
27-04-2016, 10:43
I think a computer game has an wider audience than Tabletop. Its not a fair comparison to be made.
Also for example plenty of people know Creative Assembly for their work in the Total War series. Plenty of people that dont know Warhammer Fantasy will be exposed to it.
I think its because they canned WHFB that they allowed the IP to be used by a well known video game company.
My 2 cents.

If the two were linked in that way it would truly be madness

Total War is one of the biggest game franchises and the game (before it has even been released!) has generated a lot of buzz about the old world reaching many new people. Advertising reaching new people...huh..

Lanparth
27-04-2016, 10:44
If the two were linked in that way it would truly be madness

Total War is one of the biggest game franchises and the game (before it has even been released!) has generated a lot of buzz about the old world reaching many new people. Advertising reaching new people...huh..

Who are going to be told that if they wanna play in the Old World, they better keep playing Total War, because GW has no game for them to play.

Great marketing.

Sete
27-04-2016, 10:47
If the two were linked in that way it would truly be madness

Total War is one of the biggest game franchises and the game (before it has even been released!) has generated a lot of buzz about the old world reaching many new people. Advertising reaching new people...huh..

My point is GW was extremely over protective of its IP.
Im quite happy that they are doing the game. Already pre ordered it. But to advertise WHFB it comes way too late.
Unless they have something planned. You never know.

Yodhrin
27-04-2016, 10:50
Didn't they bury WHFB for substandard performance? I don't think they will go back for the rotten fish even if AoS is not doing well at this moment. Probably they will tinker the rules, offer discounts and go something like "Three Way to Play" to expand current base. Sales can be increased if fun rules and attractive minis are provided(in reasonable price). AoS seems to have more room for fix and releasing new stuffs, as a new IP.

It had certainly declined in recent years, but a still-profitable line generating 15-20% of your revenue is hardly a "rotten fish". And by all(reliable) accounts, AoS is doing worse than that. I agree we likely won't see WHFB any time soon or even perhaps at all, but that will be because GW are stubborn, prideful, and/or incompetent, not because WHFB couldn't have been improved or AoS is easier to improve.

At the end of the day WHFB died because GW have this bizarre attitude that anything less than utter domination of a wargaming niche and 40K-level revenues and profits is worthless, and that any change that must be achieved slowly and with effort rather than with big flashy gestures isn't worth pursuing. It's so utterly wrongheaded & self-destructive it would be hilarious if it didn't result in them killing off games and IPs people have invested a lot of time, money, and energy in.

StygianBeach
27-04-2016, 10:56
It's hamstrung by bad fluff, because the people who are talented at world building, left GW. Other authors are busy with the successful property, which they are slowly watering down anyway.

This company is dumb. Don't expect much from it.

I would say the people who left were less talented themselves at world building, but were inspired by great works of world building. I think the more recent works are sourced from a more limited pool of inspiration ( a form of cannibalisation maybe?). I would consider this one of the drawbacks of art being driven by copyright as opposed to being driven by inspiration.

Herzlos
27-04-2016, 11:03
Who are going to be told that if they wanna play in the Old World, they better keep playing Total War, because GW has no game for them to play.

Great marketing.

I think that's the stupidest decision in the whole AoS debackle. They've finally gotten a proper blockbuster game studio on board, with a digital version of their game which will cause an explosion in awareness (I bet a lot of the increase in search traffic is from the game), and they drop the game it's based on. TW: Warhammer will sell millions of copies, and anyone who then goes to find the tabletop game (as happened with Space Marine) will be met with "Oh, Warhammer? Sorry, that world blew up and we've got a bad World Of Warcraft clone now. How much do you want to buy?"

Maybe they'll bring out a legacy edition, or a total war edition of Warmaster, in a self-contained box. I'd buy the feth out of that. No doubt they'll just try and upsell Warhammer fans on AoS, which is for all intents and purposes, a completely different game. With completely different tropes.

Edit: Feth, that TW game looks good. Shame that nothing featured on the front page of the official site exists in AoS.

Herzlos
27-04-2016, 11:04
I would say the people who left were less talented themselves at world building, but were inspired by great works of world building. I think the more recent works are sourced from a more limited pool of inspiration ( a form of cannibalisation maybe?). I would consider this one of the drawbacks of art being driven by copyright as opposed to being driven by inspiration.

It's a combination; the people who are left are less capable than the people who have left, and they have less to work with.

constraints aside, you can't really say the current content is as good as the old content?

Vazalaar
27-04-2016, 11:21
The only real hope is if they outsource the development to someone competent, like River Horse (Allesios new company). I doubt they'll do that since they'd lose a lot of control, but they are making a lot of surprising decisions in desperation.

God no, he wrote KoW, which imo is a very uninteresting game.

I would prefer that GW handles the Old World IP to Warlord Games with Rick Priestly or the 9th Age team.

blackcherry
27-04-2016, 11:32
I think that many players want AoS to fail, as they believe in some naive way that they can get WFB back if AoS goes away (much in the same way people a few years ago were saying that 40k and WFB would be great again if LotR were to stop being supported by GW).

I can't see GW going back on this and reintroducing WFB is a way that pleases even 50% of their fanbase. Too many are embittered and burnt out now to ever be happy with what GW do again. Yet they still hang around Warhammer General ;)

GW lose whatever they do - so given the production pipeline that will be in place for AoS now, even if they do drop it, it will be a long time coming and the system will be replaced by something new. Not a retread of old. Hopefully long term fans will be able to get their Warhammer universe kicks with the Specialist Games releases like Bloodbowl.

blindingdark
27-04-2016, 11:35
I hope so, and they would be daft not to do so. AOS is garbage, it still floors me they did this and thought it was a good idea.

Alaska
27-04-2016, 12:04
Well, I can only expect they will try harder on AoS no matter they are capable of making good games or not. Even if GW suck badly these days like you suggested, reviving WHFB will end in the same flawed quality in that case so doesn't seem to be a better option.

And no, I don't think Warhammer Fantasy in computer games is successful nor has that convincing power as IP. Fans get easily excited over things and seem to expect a lot from Total War: Warhammer. But did Warhammer Online help miniature sale enough to keep WHFB alive? Were Bloodbowl and Mordheim succeed? I don't think Total War will be the case, but let's see.

And no, I don't count ordinary players tend to care backgrounds and stories that much like some do. I have been long in this hobby just as you guys. But as far as I have seen, what make passers stop at table top games and hold them enough are cool looking minis or fun games. There are plenty other games which lack in stories and setting than AoS but they attract people. If Aos has the issues, it's mainly about rules and the price in my opinion.

So yeah, I think GW will just go forth and try various methods to increase AoS sale. Even LoTR treatment sounds more likely than resurrecting WHFB. But that's just my 2 cents.

Vazalaar
27-04-2016, 12:12
The Total War franchise sells millions of copies. You can't compare it with other PC games that used the Warhammer IP. This is comparable with the Dawn of War franchise.

Anyway I would love to see a proper continuation of Warhammer 8th edition.

But I would also be happy with a proper supported new Mordheim, which ofcourse should be based in the old world.

Maybe the new specialist department will throw us a bone.

StygianBeach
27-04-2016, 13:29
It's a combination; the people who are left are less capable than the people who have left, and they have less to work with.

constraints aside, you can't really say the current content is as good as the old content?

One of the coolest little Easter eggs for me last decade was the Dark Elf Corsair champion that was designed to look like Raziel from the game Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver video game. There is also some Vampire Counts art from around this time that also have a very Legacy of Kain look.

The latest Orcs all look like they were inspired by WH40K Meganobs, and that is all...
I like the new Wyvern, it looks to me like it has weight, and I can imagine that thing running in a seriously lumbering manner, sadly the rider just looks like a Meganob to me. I was initially excited about the Warchanter because I thought he had Gork and Mork Maracas, but was dissappointed to see they were only bones.

I cant say the new Stormcasts inspire me much as Sigmars Stormcasts, but if I think of them as Divine Oppressors (in the Judge Dredd tradition) then I think they are awesome. In other words, I think they didn't make them enough like Space Marines (more like PG Space Marines). Maybe I just need to read a bit more of the fluff to find some Lawful Good act of Righteous Justice.

I really can't say which content is better given the constraints, but Egyptian Imagery is awesome and it is a shame GW has decided to drop it because of a copyright driven art department.

Alaska
27-04-2016, 13:42
The Total War franchise sells millions of copies. You can't compare it with other PC games that used the Warhammer IP. This is comparable with the Dawn of War franchise.


Total War is a stand alone series by its own. All Warhammer mods were created by Warhammer fans and they are the one who making comments in Youtube. TW fans may enjoy this ex-sequel if it turn out to be good. But unless SEGA keeps making WFB games and unless it becomes a trend like Dawn of War, the value is overestimated I think. SEGA is more ambitious in making 40k games anyway.

Pojko
27-04-2016, 14:10
Total War is a stand alone series by its own. All Warhammer mods were created by Warhammer fans and they are the one who making comments in Youtube. TW fans may enjoy this ex-sequel if it turn out to be good. But unless SEGA keeps making WFB games and unless it becomes a trend like Dawn of War, the value is overestimated I think. SEGA is more ambitious in making 40k games anyway.

As a long time TW player myself I don't think its value can be overstated enough. Every TW game for the past 10+ years has been highly anticipated for many months by many millions of people. This is a top tier PC game franchise that far eclipses anything Dawn of War ever did, and is nowhere close to the Mordheim, Blood Bowl or Vermintide games. Even people who have never heard of Warhammer know what this new game is, whether they like the idea of a fantasy game or not. So this will get lots of people's attention. And GW blew it by not being able to capitalize on it in regards to the tabletop game.

Folomo
27-04-2016, 14:39
Just wanted to point out that the TW:WHFB is going to be a trilogy.
So there are 2 other games in the pipeline based on the old world.
I have already seen people that got interested in the WHFB world thanks to the game but found out that world doesn't exist anymore :(.

Herzlos
27-04-2016, 14:48
As a long time TW player myself I don't think its value can be overstated enough. Every TW game for the past 10+ years has been highly anticipated for many months by many millions of people. This is a top tier PC game franchise that far eclipses anything Dawn of War ever did, and is nowhere close to the Mordheim, Blood Bowl or Vermintide games. Even people who have never heard of Warhammer know what this new game is, whether they like the idea of a fantasy game or not. So this will get lots of people's attention. And GW blew it by not being able to capitalize on it in regards to the tabletop game.

Exactly. This game will be covered in places that have never heard of Warhammer. It'll be everywhere; Target, Walmart, and so on. It has coverage GW can only dream about.

Alaska
27-04-2016, 15:26
As a long time TW player myself I don't think its value can be overstated enough. Every TW game for the past 10+ years has been highly anticipated for many months by many millions of people. This is a top tier PC game franchise that far eclipses anything Dawn of War ever did, and is nowhere close to the Mordheim, Blood Bowl or Vermintide games. Even people who have never heard of Warhammer know what this new game is, whether they like the idea of a fantasy game or not. So this will get lots of people's attention. And GW blew it by not being able to capitalize on it in regards to the tabletop game.

Oh come on. There are no 'many millions of people' playing Total War. The total sales of the whole series is something like that. I see how the hype is going but will reserve the evaluation until the launch and after a year patches for the final one just as casual TW players do. ;)

dalezzz
27-04-2016, 15:35
Rome 2 sold 1.13 million across Europe and North America apparently

article I read was dated May 2014 .... So you can probably add a few more units there

Horace35
27-04-2016, 15:37
Err there are?

This from 2014 (http://uk.ign.com/articles/2014/05/09/sega-financials-reveal-total-war-rome-2-as-best-seller)ie. 2 years ago had Rome 2 at over a million copies, outselling Football Manager, another massive franchise.

And this gives you an idea where it sits over the last 6 years (http://segabits.com/blog/2015/03/09/total-war-series-sells-11-million-within-the-last-6-years/)

For those too lazy to click. 11 million copies. 18 million DLC sales. And that doesn't even include the piracy

duffybear1988
27-04-2016, 15:38
Ill leave his full post here. I have as many reasons to believe him as i have on Hastings.
TheInsider. (https://disqus.com/by/disqus_csTHQPGkrU/) • 11 hours ago (http://natfka.blogspot.com/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-changes-due-to-sales.html#comment-2643341934)I have already tried to post today, I'm waiting to see if Natfka has the good grace to allow it.
I never said AoS was selling as well as 40k, but it is doing better then WFB this comes from the horses mouth.
I never attacked WFB fan's,or any other fans.
Go and read my posts in the other threads and see for yourselves.
To those of you who have taken my words and corrupted them to suit your own agenda, you are the very people that ruin the community, why you have done this is beyond me and is simply disgusting.
Hastings has no way of knowing GW financials that simply is nonsense.
Nor does anyone else, apart from the CEO and a few heads of department.
Thanks to those who have acted like decent people, and I will say this the future looks good.
Wait and see!
I'll probably not be posting here again as the amount of abuse I have suffered for telling the truth is not worth it.
I took my tid bits of info here first because I thought that Faeit had a much better community the other rumour sites and I was a fan, sadly I was wrong.
To the guys and girls that I have had fun with on here
Thanks for all the fish!





Never heard of him.

I mean crikey, even I've got more rumours correct than that guy.

I called big fat golden suits of armour for sigmarines when you nippers were still wet behind the ears and pretty much anything Hastings says is spot on. Even the fishmen - it turns out they became sentient and took over GW instead of being sold off to gullible suckers in £50 boxes :shifty:

Zywus
27-04-2016, 15:44
Never heard of him.

Even I've got more rumours correct than that guy.
Heck, Even Natfka has more rumours correct than that guy. Almost 400 correct rumours!
(Of course, he had to throw out over 800 false ones as well to hit that number, but still. A accuracy of almost 32% is pretty impressive... well, in some way it's impressive at least)
Natfka on Faeit 212 - Total rumors: (389 TRUE) / (832 FALSE) / (76 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE) - Updated 3/2/2016
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/448304.page

duffybear1988
27-04-2016, 15:51
Heck, Even Natfka has more rumours correct than that guy. Almost 400 correct rumours!
(Of course, he had to throw out over 800 false ones as well to hit that number, but still. A accuracy of almost 32% is pretty impressive... well, in some way it's impressive at least)
Natfka on Faeit 212 - Total rumors: (389 TRUE) / (832 FALSE) / (76 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE) - Updated 3/2/2016
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/448304.page

I think I speak for rumourmongers everywhere when I say that I really do detest the DakkaDakka rumour scorer though. Take a look at my entry and you see that they down scored me because I said that the harlequin sprue came with crew for a venom. What I actually said was that in the bag of random goodies I was sent was what looked like a venom crewman on a sprue and that maybe it came with the harlequin box. Turns out I was right and there was a harlequin crewman but he came with the special harlequin version of the venom instead of on the other sprue. So my rumour was actually correct, there was a crewman coming and there was a harlequin box. Still down scored though...

Don't always trust Dakka scores.

MagicAngle
27-04-2016, 15:53
Yeah, this "Insider" guy even blatantly contradicts himself by claiming that only the "CEO and a few heads of department" knows GW's financials, but makes claims that he has insider knowledge on the sales of not only AoS, but also WHFB and 40k. So yeah. Trollol.

That said, maybe he's telling the truth - his contempt for the community certainly has a GW CEO ring to it. :-)

Zywus
27-04-2016, 16:05
I think I speak for rumourmongers everywhere when I say that I really do detest the DakkaDakka rumour scorer though. Take a look at my entry and you see that they down scored me because I said that the harlequin sprue came with crew for a venom. What I actually said was that in the bag of random goodies I was sent was what looked like a venom crewman on a sprue and that maybe it came with the harlequin box. Turns out I was right and there was a harlequin crewman but he came with the special harlequin version of the venom instead of on the other sprue. So my rumour was actually correct, there was a crewman coming and there was a harlequin box. Still down scored though...

Don't always trust Dakka scores.
Yea, that sounds pretty stupid and the tracker numbers should always be taken with a pinch of salt.

I assume that there are a few questionable judgements in the tracking of most rumourmongers, but taken over a long time and a large quantity of predictions, such anomalies carry less importance.

I think it does say something if someone have over 1000 rumour predictions and are just over 30% correct on them.

Immortus
27-04-2016, 16:27
I think they will! Not in 2017 maybe after.

I see WFB coming back in supported lore and Rules. Set mid end times, post Nagash resurrection - pre-fall of Ulthuan with Kislev down and the empire "next"

in that situation it would be easy to have ALL current models supported in Both a AOS Skirmish and Old world R&F game.

Could have Sigmarines somewhat hold true to their AOS lore, the result of an Empire and Dwarven alliance to make the armour, while an arrangement with Nagash keeps them "safe" from the warp.

Can't see them ditching a fantasy lineup and AOS isn't going to get saved by these "comp" rules. there's too much else to fix

Alaska
27-04-2016, 16:29
Err there are?

This from 2014 (http://uk.ign.com/articles/2014/05/09/sega-financials-reveal-total-war-rome-2-as-best-seller)ie. 2 years ago had Rome 2 at over a million copies, outselling Football Manager, another massive franchise.

And this gives you an idea where it sits over the last 6 years (http://segabits.com/blog/2015/03/09/total-war-series-sells-11-million-within-the-last-6-years/)

For those too lazy to click. 11 million copies. 18 million DLC sales. And that doesn't even include the piracy

Oh yeah, you see. Five TW games sold total 11+ million, Rome 2 sold around 1.5. The series has 1 million active users the article says. DoW 1 series sold 7+ million as of 2013. AoE 3 sold 2.5 million as of 2007. It's still a long way for SEGA to put TW on mainstream. But I guess it's enough for off-topic. ;)

Immortus
27-04-2016, 16:32
Just wanted to point out that the TW:WHFB is going to be a trilogy.
So there are 2 other games in the pipeline based on the old world.
I have already seen people that got interested in the WHFB world thanks to the game but found out that world doesn't exist anymore :(.


Yup trillogy! each with its own campaign, and any one game with give you the full skirmish game (with the armies included in that edition's release.) I'm looking forward to them!

scruffyryan
27-04-2016, 16:35
Oh yeah, you see. Five TW games sold total 11+ million, Rome 2 sold around 1.5. The series has 1 million active users the article says. DoW 1 series sold 7+ million as of 2013. AoE 3 sold 2.5 million as of 2007. It's still a long way for SEGA to put TW on mainstream. But I guess it's enough for off-topic. ;)

I feel pretty confident in saying 1.5 million is probably a factor of ten to twenty more than plays GW games currently.

herjan1987
27-04-2016, 16:48
I think a computer game has an wider audience than Tabletop. Its not a fair comparison to be made.
Also for example plenty of people know Creative Assembly for their work in the Total War series. Plenty of people that dont know Warhammer Fantasy will be exposed to it.
I think its because they canned WHFB that they allowed the IP to be used by a well known video game company.
My 2 cents.

They sold the right to the IP on 6th of December 2012. CA only delay, because he had Rome 2 and Alien: Isolation in the pipeline. Question is would CA buy right to a franchise that is failing?

Alaska
27-04-2016, 16:50
I feel pretty confident in saying 1.5 million is probably a factor of ten to twenty more than plays GW games currently.

Warhammer Online initially sold 1.2+ million copies and had 800,000 active users a month as of 2008. Can't say it converted many people to the table top game.

Denny
27-04-2016, 16:52
IMO it will never come back.

GW didn't think Fantasy sold well enough. We can argue about whether this was GW's fault, or if there was anything they could have done about it, or even if they were right to think this, but that was the reason GW brought in AoS. By doing so they alienated a lot of fans. If they were to bring Fantasy back, would all those fans come back? Some might, but I think others will have moved on (I've seen plenty of 'GW have burned their bridges, I'm out' type comments).

So, if Fantasy were to come back, it would have less players than it had when GW canceled it because they considered sales too low.

I'd place my money on either AoS succeeding, or GW giving up on Fantasy altogether.
(Or I suppose they could try a new Fantasy game)

Comrade Penguin
27-04-2016, 16:56
No it will not. If AOS fails you will see them quietly jettison the setting and focus even more on 40k. I can see GW being a two game company again: 40k and 30k.

Deadthing
27-04-2016, 17:04
Warhammer Online initially sold 1.2+ million copies and had 800,000 active users a month as of 2008. Can't say it converted many people to the table top game.

That is true. But Warhammer Online was a game of small parties adventuring in the Warhammer world. Total War: Warhammer is a game of actual armies.

I agree that proportion of TW:W players who decide to look into the tabletop game will be small. But even a small proportion of a large number could represent a significant influx, especially if those who were interested liked what they found and encouraged others. Alas... if what they find is just AoS, that's not going to be the case. So ultimately, I think TW:W wil represent an enormous lost opportunity for GW and a case of ridiculously bad planning and shortsightedness.

Incidentally, it has been the TW:W trailers and gameplay videos that convinced me and a few friends to look into 9th Age as a way to get our armies back on the table. That's because the videos have really captured and brilliantly evoked the spirit of the Warhammer world and the sweep of epic battles. Maybe it's 9th Age or one of the other WFB successors that will benefit from TW:W in the end. GW might at least see some model sales out of it.

It's primarily the excitement I see in respone to TW:W that made me answer "yes" to this question, together with a dash of "look how quickly GW's Last Chance WFB stuff sold out". *Somebody* will recognize that there's money to be made here, if the project is managed correctly.

Horace35
27-04-2016, 17:19
Steamspy estimates around 2.3 million copies of Rome 2 sold. These will have been bumped significantly from the recent steam sales (incidentally when I picked up my copy)

http://steamspy.com/app/214950


Aside from all this there are already people on the Total War forums who have been interested in WFB (lore and models) because they have said as much in their posts.

Myster2
27-04-2016, 17:53
I think that WFB will come back, probably next year around this time. It will be a last ditch effort to save the IP. MK3 Warmahordes is going to cut deeper into AoS, as well as all the other new games out like Guildball. GW will throw some rules together that combine AOS and WFB as well as try and allow players to use circle bases (maybe a movement try that circles fit on, like KoW does it). The rules will have some major issues and it will further fragment the community, forcing GW to drop fantasy all together in 2018. And since my predications always (sometimes)(mostly never) come true, this is what is going to happen. And I wrote it on the internet.

Lars Porsenna
27-04-2016, 18:13
IMHO no WHFB will not be coming back. AT BEST we might get AoS Mass Battles, a hybrid between WHFB and AoS (possibly resembling KoW with casualty removal) as a gameplay option.

Damon.

MagicAngle
27-04-2016, 18:44
I think that if there is a return of Warhammer Fantasy, it'll likely be through the channel of Forgeworld, selling small volumes of collector minis based on Warhammer lore. ie some sort of "Age of Heroes" special edition with pricey sculpts of KF ascended, Teclis, etc. If that's a success, then they may expand the range further.

If they're resurrecting the old classics like Blood Bowl and Necromunda, it seems odd to not also look at classic WHFB as a potential cash cow. Fundamentally, if they see money in it, they'll do it.

Smooth Boy
27-04-2016, 19:04
Warhammer had to die for AoS to begin, I think even if they wanted to go back they couldn't now. The fans have moved on and the models are out of production (don't know what they did with the molds but I bet they were thrown out).

What might happen is AoS struggles on for a few years, if it doesn't pick up it'll get dropped. Then 5 - 10 years after AoS being scrapped they might reintroduce Fantasy but it won't be the same.

Lanparth
27-04-2016, 19:07
Were I an investor in Games Workshop, I'd be personally quite furious that they decided to toss out something that made money, in favour of something that is clearly not making money.

Thank goodness I'd never be stupid enough to invest with a company that is clearly so wrong-headed.

Rogue Star
27-04-2016, 19:15
No it will not. If AOS fails you will see them quietly jettison the setting and focus even more on 40k. I can see GW being a two game company again: 40k and 30k.

This. Given the runaway success of the Horus heresy era, that has made even 40K players worried they'd turn the clock back to that period... I fully expect if AoS fails, for GW to blame it on a lack of interest in fantasy (see WHFB, LotRs, AoS, etc) and to focus their efforts entirely on 40K, and boardgames, which will be the closest we'll ever see to the Old World again.

Teurastaja
27-04-2016, 19:20
GW may soon be desperate enough to resurrect WFB. Return of Specialist Games gives me hope.

Rogue Star
27-04-2016, 19:24
GW may soon be desperate enough to resurrect WFB. Return of Specialist Games gives me hope.

But Specialist Games are independent of of the GW studio proper. They're tasked with bringing back games which GW themselves won't, like Blood Bowl or Battlefleet Gothic, stuff that doesn't have cross range compatibility. WHFB is still within the purview of the studio, as would be Mordheim or Gorkamorka.

Whirlwind
27-04-2016, 19:30
If by any chance GW brought back WHFB, i would like a skirmish option. Not a fan of regimented battles.

It's what they should have done in the first place. Having a tiered system, skirmish (AoS), small regiment (like 6th edition WFB with amendments); and a mass strategy battle (warmaster) would have been a much sounder approach. they could have easily then tested the waters with different ideas rather than undertaking an eggs in all one basket.

As for rumours, I'm inclined to place more weight on those that are reliable but with more caution. Hastings has been a reliable rumour person in the past so am more willing to place weight on his comments than on someone I haven't really seen proven yet. The other evidence that hastings might be correct is the sudden change in direction from GW on AoS from being a story driven game to a points driven game (and yes this will how it will end up just like WFB). If all was well in the AoS world there would be absolutely no reason to change in this direction. However better information will be in the July financial report. With the last 6 months sales being almost solely AoS based I would expect that any change from the 6 month forecast (either positive or negative) would be an indicator of how well AoS is performing.

As for whether WFB will come back, I think no, there are already suggestions that GW might try and fill this gap with LoTR ranked game (which I'm not sure is the right answer as the models are too expensive and the number of armies is relatively limited). If AoS doesn't work it will likely be the end of this type of fantasy for GW leaving you with 40K and LoTR (and possibly 30K).

Losing Command
27-04-2016, 19:48
Even if WFB would come back, I highly doubt that most of the old guard would come back to it. Not now that they forcefully had to migrate to alternatives like KOW and 9th Age, and there found a boardgame with people behind it who put in just that little extra effort that so often seemed to be missing with GW lately.
My guess is that GW is aware of that fact, and therefor won't put effort in starting up WFB again.

Teurastaja
27-04-2016, 20:30
But Specialist Games are independent of of the GW studio proper. They're tasked with bringing back games which GW themselves won't, like Blood Bowl or Battlefleet Gothic, stuff that doesn't have cross range compatibility. WHFB is still within the purview of the studio, as would be Mordheim or Gorkamorka.

I don't think it matters that much. Money for Specialist Games will go to GW anyway. They are willing to bring back discontinued products to generate more income.

If AoS fails as one of their main line (and I think it will) they may turn to something that worked before - like End of Times.

I mean, if Rountree wants to save his job he just needs to think what would Kirby do in his place and do the opposite. I think it's happening already.

(Sorry for poor English.)

Vazalaar
27-04-2016, 20:49
I think that if there is a return of Warhammer Fantasy, it'll likely be through the channel of Forgeworld, selling small volumes of collector minis based on Warhammer lore. ie some sort of "Age of Heroes" special edition with pricey sculpts of KF ascended, Teclis, etc. If that's a success, then they may expand the range further.

If they're resurrecting the old classics like Blood Bowl and Necromunda, it seems odd to not also look at classic WHFB as a potential cash cow. Fundamentally, if they see money in it, they'll do it.

If GW, be it through specialist games/forgeworld starts to release again miniatures for the Old World, I would buy it in a second! I am still waiting for that Warhammer Forge Bright Wizard! ;)

Andnore
27-04-2016, 20:51
It's what they should have done in the first place. Having a tiered system, skirmish (AoS), small regiment (like 6th edition WFB with amendments); and a mass strategy battle (warmaster) would have been a much sounder approach. they could have easily then tested the waters with different ideas rather than undertaking an eggs in all one basket.


I'm actually reminded of New Coke when I look at how GW handled the release of AoS: when Coca Cola Company discontinued original Coke in favor of New Coke, to better compete with Pepsi, it resulted in the people who drank Pepsi continuing to do so, and the people who liked Coca Cola Classic... quit drinking.

Grizzlybeer
27-04-2016, 21:25
I think it would be neat if they retconned the Old World into existence in the form of one of the planes or something; that way you could still keep AoS high fantasy folks happy and still have a classic regimented wargame in WHB happening in the Old World plane

Tokamak
27-04-2016, 21:27
Yeah I think through a lot of smoke and mirrors GW will find a way to get a 9th edition of WFB back again.

I think it would be neat if they retconned the Old World into existence in the form of one of the planes or something; that way you could still keep AoS high fantasy folks happy and still have a classic regimented wargame in WHB happening in the Old World plane

Yes! Whatever, anything! Nobody objected to multiple realms in the first place. It was the most exciting thing about the rumours. Having a whole set of new realms alongside ye Olde World was never a problem.

Hell, keep out the Old World and create a new, remixed world with similar properties, more convenient geography and a lore that needs to start from scratch. Nobody cares. Just get us out of this kitchy over the top nonsense.

herjan1987
27-04-2016, 23:47
I think the question would more accurate, if the it was about that the people want the Old World and WFB to come back or not. If there is demand then GW or an another company will bring it back. This just like the warp.

Spiney Norman
28-04-2016, 00:02
In the short to medium term... no, IF AoS fails, and things are starting to look very much like that won't happen anyway I would expect GW to just kill off its fantasy game entirely, WFb is a failed product, if it's successor fails as well trying to bring it back would make very little business sense.

In the long term I could maybe see Forgeworld coming up with a version of AoS set in the 'World that was', kind of like the Horus Heresy is to 40k.

On the other hand I do expect AoS to move towards looking more like 40k in terms of its rules structure with each successive edition, but I think skirmishing units are here to stay, the days of ranked units of square bases in a GW game are probably over.

Dosiere
28-04-2016, 00:39
I suppose it's possible that either forge world or GW would in future do something with the WFB IP, I really don't think it's going to be a return to the way it was. As a flagship product with the kind of miniature and book support it once received are things of the past, alas. I think it far more likely another company will try to fill any gaps in the market like hail Caesar, KoW, etc... If one of those really catches on and starts producing quality fantasy miniatures I can't see GW trying to step back in.

They still seem perfectly happy to license out the IP to computer games, RPGs, card games, etc... So I'd say for now the kind of stuff you see out of FFG or total war is all were getting.

scruffyryan
28-04-2016, 00:40
WFb is a failed product,

No, GW is a slowly failing business. There's a difference.

Harosyn
28-04-2016, 03:01
IMO it will never come back.

GW didn't think Fantasy sold well enough. We can argue about whether this was GW's fault, or if there was anything they could have done about it, or even if they were right to think this, but that was the reason GW brought in AoS. By doing so they alienated a lot of fans. If they were to bring Fantasy back, would all those fans come back? Some might, but I think others will have moved on (I've seen plenty of 'GW have burned their bridges, I'm out' type comments).

So, if Fantasy were to come back, it would have less players than it had when GW canceled it because they considered sales too low.

I'd place my money on either AoS succeeding, or GW giving up on Fantasy altogether.
(Or I suppose they could try a new Fantasy game)
Quite right you are. First AoS is just meant to be a cash grab and if the profits arent high enough then GW will terminate AoS and use the resources for higher profit projects. WFB made a profit but not enough , the same with AoS cash grab, I'm sure GW has something in the works already when AoS plays out.

If GW or forgeworld did something with WFB, I hope its only miniatures and they leave the Warhammer world alone.

herjan1987
28-04-2016, 04:36
WFb is a failed product,

Such a failed product that, SEGA was dishing out some good money for it, to implement it in a PC game. You know like Relic did with 40k.

Niall78
28-04-2016, 05:53
Such a failed product that, SEGA was dishing out some good money for it, to implement it in a PC game. You know like Relic did with 40k.

Sega and Creative Assembly are obviously idiots. Somebody should give them a ring and tell them they are about to launch a flagship product with multi-million Euro development costs based on a failed IP. Did these guys think market research was otiose or something?

Maybe they can cancel TW:WFB and instead do a TW:AoS if there is still time? ;)

Rogue Star
28-04-2016, 07:21
Much as people talk about the idea of if GW returned with WHFB 9th edition, would it be anymore successful than previously? Obviously it was selling better than Age of Sigmar is, but GW is a business, they don't rate nostalgia highly, so why would they put money into bringing back what they seemed to deem "mediocre" sales when they could try again to launch something that might be more successful, like a Horus Heresy plastics line?

tl;dr - if they brought back WHFB, it would still cost a fortune to get in to. Perhaps a better question is, how to fix WHFB to make it as successful as 40K?

jet_palero
28-04-2016, 07:26
Much as people talk about the idea of if GW returned with WHFB 9th edition, would it be anymore successful than previously? Obviously it was selling better than Age of Sigmar is, but GW is a business, they don't rate nostalgia highly, so why would they put money into bringing back what they seemed to deem "mediocre" sales when they could try again to launch something that might be more successful, like a Horus Heresy plastics line?

There were a lot of suggestions on how to fix WFB in the forums. There's any number of ways to make it more open to new players (ie cheaper) and more competitive (to encourage vets). And that's not even talking about advertising and market research, two things any company can benefit from. We could also get into supporting groups with competitions and tournaments, but why bother? GW doesn't care.

Rogue Star
28-04-2016, 07:32
There were a lot of suggestions on how to fix WFB in the forums. There's any number of ways to make it more open to new players (ie cheaper) and more competitive (to encourage vets). And that's not even talking about advertising and market research, two things any company can benefit from. We could also get into supporting groups with competitions and tournaments, but why bother? GW doesn't care.

GW will never lower their prices. The Start Collecting boxed sets are their idea of practically bending over backwards to give you a force, so unless the amount of models you need to play significantly drops, it will continue to be a very expensive investment to potential new players. Again, perhaps a "super Mordheim" would be a better idea to try?

Vazalaar
28-04-2016, 07:54
Sorry Spiney, but calling WFB a failed product is just wrong.

It lasted for 30 years, it has lots of background and lots of fans. The only reason WFB declined is because of GW mismanaged it. Do you honestly think WFB would decline if GW would interact with the community as they are doing now??? Do you think people wouldn't start a new army more easly if there were Start collecting boxes????

The fact that GW is now doing all those positive things is just painful to watch, because if they would have done that with WFB, it would be still being alive and supported by GW.

If anything AoS is a failed project. It fractured the community and it has really bad rules. The fact that it needs a FAQ that has more pages than the core rules says enough... .

I have been a GW fanboy for years and in a way I still am, but AoS is really the most ****y project I have ever seen.

Rogue Star
28-04-2016, 08:11
Sorry Spiney, but calling WFB a failed product is just wrong.

I'm sure Spiney means, in GW's eyes, for the reasons I mentioned - bringing it back, rank combat, square-bases and all will in no way guarantee people will buy more than they were previously. Much as people like to rag on AoS for not being WHFB, looking at it, you can see it wasn't just thrown together with minimal effort, but perhaps with a very misguided sense of trying to make a super accessible game: You don't need to buy a rulebook, warscrolls online, you don't need to consult a list, everything you like the look of works together (but certain themed units function better), etc.

Even the Stormcast Eternals, who are obviously Space Marine analogues to try and recreate their success, many posters have noticed that their different units are the same with different weapons. Cheap? Possibly, but more likely that way when someone has never touched a tabletop miniature before needs paints, he doesn't need to pick up the reds and whites of Reikland, the silvers and blues of Knights Panther, the reds and oranges of the Bright Wizard, and browns and greys of horses, etc. You know how to paint a Liberator? Congratulations, you now know how to paint Retributors, Judicators, Paladins, etc. Everything is designed to help ease someone new in.

You just need the models you like, a small selection of paints, etc. Look, we even made cheap guides with dry-brushing techniques to make it super simple, says GW.

GW undoubtly don't want a game that sells less than WHFB... but at the same time, WHFB wasn't bringing in enough money for them... so why go back to it when they can try something new?

dalezzz
28-04-2016, 09:23
Sorry Spiney, but calling WFB a failed product is just wrong.

It lasted for 30 years, it has lots of background and lots of fans. The only reason WFB declined is because of GW mismanaged it. Do you honestly think WFB would decline if GW would interact with the community as they are doing now??? Do you think people wouldn't start a new army more easly if there were Start collecting boxes????

The fact that GW is now doing all those positive things is just painful to watch, because if they would have done that with WFB, it would be still being alive and supported by GW.

If anything AoS is a failed project. It fractured the community and it has really bad rules. The fact that it needs a FAQ that has more pages than the core rules says enough... .

I have been a GW fanboy for years and in a way I still am, but AoS is really the most ****y project I have ever seen.

+ 10 , the fact that GW are making the right moves after killing wfb just makes it even worse! Sadly AoS will probably still fail and GW can then blame it on all things that we actually approve of.

Yodhrin
28-04-2016, 13:43
Much as people talk about the idea of if GW returned with WHFB 9th edition, would it be anymore successful than previously? Obviously it was selling better than Age of Sigmar is, but GW is a business, they don't rate nostalgia highly, so why would they put money into bringing back what they seemed to deem "mediocre" sales when they could try again to launch something that might be more successful, like a Horus Heresy plastics line?

tl;dr - if they brought back WHFB, it would still cost a fortune to get in to. Perhaps a better question is, how to fix WHFB to make it as successful as 40K?


Because they were completely irrational to consider a profitable line that accounted for 15-20% of revenue as mediocre in the first place, and hopefully someone at HQ would recognise that(not that I think they will, not unless FW do it first and prove to those numpties that it's viable as they did with Heresy). Any rational company would be looking at WHFB as-was and thinking they had a strong IP(which means more than "can I sue anyone that looks at it funny for copyright infringement" - Sherlock Holmes and big chunks of Lovecraft's works are public domain ffs and even that doesn't stop people making millions from them) with good-if-declining market share(which, remember, also means market share denied to competitors, although GW have an insane belief they don't actually have any of those) and a huge level of nostalgia waiting to be tapped into, and then trying to think of ways to exploit that IP and grow it.

The amount of effort and resources they've dedicated to AoS was enough to create a half-arsed new IP, or totally revitalise an existing IP with an existing fanbase, and for some mental, inexplicable reason they decided it was better to cack out the half-arsed product and hope for the best. It's mind-boggling. Doubly-so when their own little End Times farewell to WHFB proved the hunger for new content was there and capable of driving sales.

It's the exact same idiocy that led them to can the Specialist Games the first time - they had a series of products that cost them very little to maintain and provide token support for, which ensured continued dominance of the market by keeping customers within their own ecosystem when they got bored of 40K and WHFB and needed a change of pace for a few months, and which very likely paid for themselves even if they didn't make a spectacular amount of money. Rather than thank their lucky stars they could so easily ensure customer retention and strangle most potential competition in its crib through simple ubiquity, plus have a solid platform to build future revenue on, they chucked them all away in a sulk because big important GW was too awesome to bother catering to such small niches. Now WarmaHordes are eating their lunch in America and Kickstarters for skirmish games, miniature-heavy board games, and small-scale mass combat games are hoovering up millions of dollars collectively.

GW's management are chronically incapable of recognising value beyond raw revenue and profit, and by that measure nothing else they ever make is going to be as successful as 40K and so is eventually doomed.

Rakariel
28-04-2016, 13:51
No they won`t, as much as I would like to have it back. In any case, I play 9th Age now and that is more than a worthy successor.

Denny
28-04-2016, 14:53
Sorry Spiney, but calling WFB a failed product is just wrong.

As noted, I don't think this means WFB was a failure in any objective sense, it just means it was a failure as far as GW was concerned. As GW are the folks who make the game theirs is the only opinion that matters when it comes to deciding that they will stop making the game.

In other words: WFB failed to do what GW wanted it to do. That might well be their fault, but that doesn't matter.

Tokamak
28-04-2016, 15:24
You would have a point if GW stopped making fantasy entirely. But that's not what GW wanted to do, they wanted fantasy to be more profitable. If that's GW's goal then GW's opinion no longer matter as they now have a benchmark. Is AoS more profitable than WFB? If the answer is no then AoS is the failed product, not WFB.

I think the question would more accurate, if the it was about that the people want the Old World and WFB to come back or not.

Everyone has been very vocal and clear on that. If GW doesn't want to take that into account then that's on them.

herjan1987
28-04-2016, 15:38
In other words: WFB failed to do what GW wanted it to do. That might well be their fault, but that doesn't matter.

In my eyes it can be still brought back. GW can ignore 10 emails, maybe a 100. But he cant ignore 1000s of emails.

There is a guy on the on Youtube called Arch Warhammer, he makes lore vidoes for both 40k and Warhammer Fantasy Battle. His Orc and Goblins video had over 80000 views, his Dwarf lore video was close to that also. Heck even the Tomb Kings videos scored above 60000.

GW cant avoid 60000 people.

Bloodknight
28-04-2016, 16:00
But he cant ignore 1000s of emails

Write snail mail. Seriously. Shows you've put some thought into what you were writing and you were willing to spend a few cents to get your opinion across and you didn't just vomit something into the ether.

Denny
28-04-2016, 16:14
In my eyes it can be still brought back. GW can ignore 10 emails, maybe a 100. But he cant ignore 1000s of emails.

I think they are more interested in £s than emails.
Their experience has taught them WFB doesn't bring in £s.
Besides, what would the emails say? "We didn't used to spend enough money on the game but if you bring it back now we will, honest. Please ignore all those people online who have said they have now given up on GW due to AoS."

I'm not defending GW, I just can't see logically why they would change their minds because of a bunch of emails.


Is AoS more profitable than WFB? If the answer is no then AoS is the failed product, not WFB.

OR they will take from it that trying to make a Fantasy game is a failure.
More Space Marines please. Do they come in raspberry flavor yet? ;)

Kjell
28-04-2016, 16:22
GW will never lower their prices. The Start Collecting boxed sets are their idea of practically bending over backwards to give you a force, so unless the amount of models you need to play significantly drops, it will continue to be a very expensive investment to potential new players. Again, perhaps a "super Mordheim" would be a better idea to try?

They could always simply include twice as many sprues in the regiment boxes. 20 GW skeletons for the same price as the current 10 isn't terribly more expensive than the Mantic equivalents, for example. They could also write a rule set where 20 models is more or less enough for an infantry regiment and players aren't required to field hordes of 40-60 models. Two simple moves that would make WHFB vastly more affordable.

A skirmish system to serve as the first entry point to toy soldiers, a way for established players to expand their horizons without buying a whole army and a solid game in its own right would of course only make things even more appealing. Throw a handful of sprues from four different kits into one box and call it a skirmish starter set and you're good to go.

Then there's of course making the rules themselves a living edition available for free online and updated periodically to accommodate new releases, bug fixes and clarifications but that's somewhat more advanced than the first two things. It would certainly make it easier to retain players while still developing new units once in a while or rebalancing the magic weapon assortment.

herjan1987
28-04-2016, 16:25
Write snail mail. Seriously. Shows you've put some thought into what you were writing and you were willing to spend a few cents to get your opinion across and you didn't just vomit something into the ether.

Well since GW doesnt do market research, you need to help him do the market research......

ik0ner
28-04-2016, 16:32
I'm not sure I would want then to bring it back anymore. With the change in style and aesthetics I don't think it would be the old world I loved.

smaxx
28-04-2016, 16:32
GW has to something. Their costs are partly fixed, ie staff and shops. Small decline of sales causes a considerable loss of net result. It may be so, that releasing more 40k doesn't increase sales much, as one customer is only willing to spend a certain amount of money. With AoS they've essentially got rid of a portion of clients, who buy now nothing from GW. And gained some, but probably fewer. So, to gain at leasr some customers back, they could bring Whfb back along with AoS. Some might return, and it's anyway not away from AoS sales.

But who knows ? Now they are at least doing something right, so perhaps.

Spiney Norman
28-04-2016, 18:56
Such a failed product that, SEGA was dishing out some good money for it, to implement it in a PC game. You know like Relic did with 40k.

Sega paid good money for the rights to make a video game based on the world of warhammer, not make a tabletop wargame

I think you misunderstood me, willfully or otherwise. The warhammer fantasy setting was absolutely fine and clearly worth investing in for the video games industry, but it was not paying its way as a tabletop wargame for whatever reason, and it's clear from the length of time that AoS has been in development that wfb had not been paying its way for years. The launch of AoS was not a snap decision made by GW 12 months ago, there have been rumours circulating about wfb's poor performance for the last 4-5 years (fairly soon after 8th edition hit actually) so the surprising thing really is not that the game got canned, it's that so many people who read this forum were (and in some cases still are) shocked that it happened.

That could be down to how the game played, that could be down to mismanagement of the rules or product line or prices, probably a bit of all of them, in the end it doesn't matter because whatever the cause wfb was no longer viable as a tabletop wargame and got cut. Whatever we think the problem was we have much less data to base that opinion on than GW did, we don't even know for certain how much wfb was or wasn't selling in the run up to its demise and can do little more than filling in the blanks with hypotheticals.

Personally I think that GW made exactly the wrong decision in axing the warhammer setting, but it's their prerogative to do so and they clearly thought it was the right thing to do based on their own analysis.

scruffyryan
28-04-2016, 19:07
Sega paid good money for the rights to make a video game based on the world of warhammer, not make a tabletop wargame

I think you misunderstood me, willfully or otherwise. The warhammer fantasy setting was absolutely fine and clearly worth investing in for the video games industry, but it was not paying its way as a tabletop wargame for whatever reason, and it's clear from the length of time that AoS has been in development that wfb had not been paying its way for years. The launch of AoS was not a snap decision made by GW 12 months ago, there have been rumours circulating about wfb's poor performance for the last 4-5 years (fairly soon after 8th edition hit actually) so the surprising thing really is not that the game got canned, it's that so many people who read this forum were (and in some cases still are) shocked that it happened.

That could be down to how the game played, that could be down to mismanagement of the rules or product line or prices, probably a bit of all of them, in the end it doesn't matter because whatever the cause wfb was no longer viable as a tabletop wargame and got cut. Whatever we think the problem was we have much less data to base that opinion on than GW did, we don't even know for certain how much wfb was or wasn't selling in the run up to its demise and can do little more than filling in the blanks with hypotheticals.

Personally I think that GW made exactly the wrong decision in axing the warhammer setting, but it's their prerogative to do so and they clearly thought it was the right thing to do based on their own analysis.


You continue to offer this assumption that access to more data means the people at GW knew more what needed to be done to make something profitable. The last 15 years or so of their dwindling market share would disagree. Warseer did more market research than they did, the assumption that because they saw exact numbers they knew best is fallacious.

Mithrilherz
28-04-2016, 22:56
GW is dead for me and my mates.

The king is dead, long live the king, which is T9A now.

herjan1987
29-04-2016, 05:55
By the way its funny that Black Library is bringing back 4 novels from the Fantasy era.

Buddy Bear
29-04-2016, 06:47
...but it was not paying its way as a tabletop wargame for whatever reason, and it's clear from the length of time that AoS has been in development that wfb had not been paying its way for years.

You keep saying that, but according to people in the know like Hastings, that wasn't the case at all. Warhammer Fantasy was paying its way and was turning a profit. Right around the time they decided to axe it Warhammer Fantasy was either the 3rd or 4th best selling game on the market. There's a huge difference between not paying its way (which implies it was losing money, which most certainly wasn't the case), and wanting to make more money than it was currently making, and the latter seems to be the case with Warhammer Fantasy. GW didn't can Warhammer Fantasy because it was losing them money, but because they wanted it to turn a higher profit than it was turning. And according to Hastings, AOS is making less money than Warhammer Fantasy when the decision was made to axe it, which was before the sales bump of End Times. End Times produced a sales bump, so clearly there was more money to be made from Warhammer Fantasy, and there were ways to increase sales. GW just wasn't interested in pursuing any sensible options to increase Warhammer's sales.

Rogue Star
29-04-2016, 07:30
Personally I think that GW made exactly the wrong decision in axing the warhammer setting, but it's their prerogative to do so and they clearly thought it was the right thing to do based on their own analysis.

Agreed. I feel GW basically asked "Why is Warhammer 40,000 much more successful?" and for whatever strange reason, felt making their fantasy setting more like 40K would fix that, but it... lacks.


GW just wasn't interested in pursuing any sensible options to increase Warhammer's sales.

To be fair, Spiney isn't saying AoS is an inherently better way than WHFB, just pointing out that GW will not see the failure of Age of Sigmar as an indication that Warhammer Fantasy Battle should be brought back. Or to try and explain this again, as I feel the fantasy fans might not consider this...

You can bring back Warhammer which might return to it's old profit and try to fix it for increased sales... or you could say, make a Horus Heresy range, which was a runaway success with the Betrayal at Calth set, and expand there, which is already established, and proven to sell.

A lot of people are going if they replace AoS it will be a fantasy game... because you have to have a fantasy and a sci-fi game. But I'm not sure GW feels that way, even Hastings mentioned, Kirby wanted them to be a "one trick pony".

Whirlwind
29-04-2016, 08:23
Agreed. I feel GW basically asked "Why is Warhammer 40,000 much more successful?" and for whatever strange reason, felt making their fantasy setting more like 40K would fix that, but it... lacks.



It lacks because you now have a situation where the background is written to sell the models. When 40k started the background was written by people with a genuine interest in the setting and wanted to explore it. Hence the writing wasn't as constrained as it is now. It's like the editor deciding what the author should write (and fairly the really inspired writers have hence left). Combined with everything needs to be more Epic and massive and world shattering then you get a background that is relatively bland and not as rich as the 40k or fantasy universe. That's not to say the AoS setting can't be good - the concept is not that far off Raymond Feist's Midkemia setting and multiple worlds (but which is a bit more grounded); it's just GW do not let the talent explore the universe in a way an author should. To be fair the same does for 40k now, however the current authors have a wealth of background to draw upon written by other people so GWs editor approach is less obvious.

The simple reason WFB was not as popular as 40k towards the end was cost. When I started playing GW games the cost of collecting a 40k vs WFB army was equivalent (unit sizes were in the region of 12 - 20 on average); and at that time fantasy was massively more popular than 40k. However since 6th the number of models required for a reasonable game has escalated compared to 40k (which could still be reasonably played at 500, 1000 etc points). It is hence not a surprise that WFB started fading away, getting new players to buy a new army was a massive investment that was difficult to do in small amounts and still have a viable force. If WFB had a viable way to play smaller armies and that costs were equivalent to collecting a 40k army then I think WFB would have been in a better and healthier position.

Rogue Star
29-04-2016, 08:41
It lacks because you now have a situation where the background is written to sell the models. When 40k started the background was written by people with a genuine interest in the setting and wanted to explore it.

Well they had their tongues firmly in cheek when writing it, but I assure you they wanted to sell stuff. Indeed, part of the reason 40K is so Dark Ages in spaaace was because GW largely had fantasy figures, and a few sci-fi bobs and bits - but hey, stick some guns on those fantasy orcs, put them in the plastic castle we got, put them against some of these space Marines, and the Space Orks who have taken up residence in a deserted castle of the governor of a Feral world is ready to go! It was the same with all their stuff... you bought some of our Judge Dredd miniatures but also made some space Orks? Well now your Adeptus Arbitrators are in a shoot out with green-skinned alien hoodlums! :p

Its hard to explain what AoS lacks, because every time I think I've narrowed it down, I apply the same logic to 40K, which I love, and come up empty handed... people say the infinite size of the Mortal Realms make achievements a joke, but if you replace cities with planets and the Realm with space, you've pretty much got 40K where they pull new worlds out of a hat and put in danger of something... I think it's grounding... I don't feel a connection to the setting...

Horace35
29-04-2016, 08:45
Its hard to explain what AoS lacks, because every time I think I've narrowed it down, I apply the same logic to 40K, which I love, and come up empty handed... people say the infinite size of the Mortal Realms make achievements a joke, but if you replace cities with planets and the Realm with space, you've pretty much got 40K where they pull new worlds out of a hat and put in danger of something... I think it's grounding... I don't feel a connection to the setting...

Perhaps you are right.. WFB & 40k are at least grounded in some sort of semi fantasy reality. AoS is clearly not

jbeil
29-04-2016, 08:50
It lacks because you now have a situation where the background is written to sell the models. When 40k started the background was written by people with a genuine interest in the setting and wanted to explore it. Hence the writing wasn't as constrained as it is now. It's like the editor deciding what the author should write (and fairly the really inspired writers have hence left). Combined with everything needs to be more Epic and massive and world shattering then you get a background that is relatively bland and not as rich as the 40k or fantasy universe. That's not to say the AoS setting can't be good - the concept is not that far off Raymond Feist's Midkemia setting and multiple worlds (but which is a bit more grounded); it's just GW do not let the talent explore the universe in a way an author should. To be fair the same does for 40k now, however the current authors have a wealth of background to draw upon written by other people so GWs editor approach is less obvious.

The simple reason WFB was not as popular as 40k towards the end was cost. When I started playing GW games the cost of collecting a 40k vs WFB army was equivalent (unit sizes were in the region of 12 - 20 on average); and at that time fantasy was massively more popular than 40k. However since 6th the number of models required for a reasonable game has escalated compared to 40k (which could still be reasonably played at 500, 1000 etc points). It is hence not a surprise that WFB started fading away, getting new players to buy a new army was a massive investment that was difficult to do in small amounts and still have a viable force. If WFB had a viable way to play smaller armies and that costs were equivalent to collecting a 40k army then I think WFB would have been in a better and healthier position.

A big feature of Feist's Midkemia books (which are excellent, and anyone who enjoys fantasy and sword-swinging should grab them) is that the first three hundred or so pages are dedicated to creating the world and giving us a connection with the characters around it. That way, when two worlds collide, we're invested in wanting Midkemia to come out in one piece. There's no such connection to the Mortal Realms, because we don't know anything about them, and it's much harder to get back down to that scale to make us feel something for the factions when the epic scale is already built in.

Rogue Star
29-04-2016, 11:07
Perhaps you are right.. WFB & 40k are at least grounded in some sort of semi fantasy reality. AoS is clearly not

AoS doesn't have a lot of framework, let alone meat on it's bones... yes I can, when writing the background of my Orruk Megaboss, create and have him toppling epic cities and states equivalent to the Reikland of WHFB, but unless it's grounded in something, it doesn't mean anything...

An Orruk Warboss emerging in the Badlands, defeating his rivals before heading north, crushing several Border Princes and defeating the Dwarf holds to cross the mountains, has meaning... even if the Border Prince states and the Dwarf hold is made up, because we know now, he's free to rampage into Averheim or the Wissen Land, etc, and we've got an established idea of what even a small Border Prince or minor Dwarf Hold is, to make a guess at the strength of this incursion.

An Orruk Warboss that crosses the Burning Plains of Aqshy's northern continent, smashing aside camps of the Bloodbound, before reaching the boiling edge of the Fever Sea, where he took the famous Realmgate of Khargos the Bloodspitter, travelling to the hidden location of the grimacing skull-moon, a gargantuan chunk of drifting rock in the shape of a skull leering down on the lands, before fighting his way past the Khornate hordes to shatter the blood-stone of Khargos, sending the massive object impacting into the gore-drenched horde below, before marching onward... is a lot more epic sounding in theory, but in practice? Who the hell was Khargos Bloodspitter? What's on the Burning Plains? What's beyond the Fever Sea? The Skull Moon? Where's near this that should be worried about this Orruk? Does the loss of the Bloodstone/Skull-Moon affect the Bloodbound in the slightest?

Context. That's what it lacks. I understand what the loss of a planet means, even if made up just for this story, in 40K... AoS lacks that.


A big feature of Feist's Midkemia books (which are excellent, and anyone who enjoys fantasy and sword-swinging should grab them) is that the first three hundred or so pages are dedicated to creating the world and giving us a connection with the characters around it. That way, when two worlds collide, we're invested in wanting Midkemia to come out in one piece. There's no such connection to the Mortal Realms, because we don't know anything about them, and it's much harder to get back down to that scale to make us feel something for the factions when the epic scale is already built in.

Jbeil gets it.

Kahadras
29-04-2016, 12:13
AoS doesn't have a lot of framework, let alone meat on it's bones... yes I can, when writing the background of my Orruk Megaboss, create and have him toppling epic cities and states equivalent to the Reikland of WHFB, but unless it's grounded in something, it doesn't mean anything...

People say that there isn't much background for AoS which makes me wonder what stuff is in all of the books they've produced so far. We've had the large rule book, three Realmgate War books, nine army books and something like ten novels.

Rogue Star
29-04-2016, 12:34
People say that there isn't much background for AoS which makes me wonder what stuff is in all of the books they've produced so far. We've had the large rule book, three Realmgate War books, nine army books and something like ten novels.

Mostly a story detailing an event, like how the Stormcast Eternals are now marching across the Mortal Realms, and have found and seeking to reclaim Sigmar's lost hammer, Ghal Maraz... but like I detailed about, just because you throw in the Burning Plains, the Fever Sea, the Realmgate of Khargos and the Bloodstone, does not add meat without context. Maps and rough locations need to be established.

Kahadras
29-04-2016, 12:51
Mostly a story detailing an event, like how the Stormcast Eternals are now marching across the Mortal Realms, and have found and seeking to reclaim Sigmar's lost hammer, Ghal Maraz... but like I detailed about, just because you throw in the Burning Plains, the Fever Sea, the Realmgate of Khargos and the Bloodstone, does not add meat without context. Maps and rough locations need to be established.

I honestly don't think that'll happen. It's far easier to just generate new names rather than pin stuff down. IMHO GW want a consequence free setting where the Lost city of Khadesh could fall after a ten year siege and it means absolutly nothing in the wider scheme of things. It's the probably ultimate goal of what some people in GW have been aiming for. A realm of eternal war were everybody is fighting everybody else forever with virtualy nothing ever really resolved so nothing can get in the way of the war...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MusyO7J2inM

Just replace the word football with war and the various teams for races and you're pretty close for what GW is aiming for.

Herzlos
29-04-2016, 12:52
Write snail mail. Seriously. Shows you've put some thought into what you were writing and you were willing to spend a few cents to get your opinion across and you didn't just vomit something into the ether.

It also takes up a lot more of their time than reading / deleting an email. I wrote once, about Finecast, and heard nothing back though.

StygianBeach
29-04-2016, 13:34
A big feature of Feist's Midkemia books (which are excellent, and anyone who enjoys fantasy and sword-swinging should grab them) is that the first three hundred or so pages are dedicated to creating the world and giving us a connection with the characters around it. That way, when two worlds collide, we're invested in wanting Midkemia to come out in one piece. There's no such connection to the Mortal Realms, because we don't know anything about them, and it's much harder to get back down to that scale to make us feel something for the factions when the epic scale is already built in.

I enjoyed Feist's Magician (loved the scene of Pug in the coliseum), the Cho Ja of Kelewan were my favourite part of the series. The Empire series on the other hand is hard work, too much dues ex machina and Kevin is insanely annoying, more so because he is based on a awesome character, John Blackthorn from James Clavells Shogun.



Context. That's what it lacks. I understand what the loss of a planet means, even if made up just for this story, in 40K... AoS lacks that.


I would agree that AoS lacks context. Do we know what a world look like when Khorne rules it? He has humans fighting for him, so I assume they have homes and stuff?

Sete
29-04-2016, 15:32
Like someone said before it lacks familiarity. I assume khorne dudes live in tents, nomad style.
Do they eat babies born in the tribe tho? xD
So many questions...
It feels like they wanted to go 40k style. Galaxy where you can have campaigns in places that wont affect the setting in any manner whatsoever.
But it feels all over the place.
How are there oceans on azyrheim? Its a city around a rock! Its those things that bother me.

Denny
29-04-2016, 16:28
Do they eat babies born in the tribe tho? xD

. . . making babies sounds like the sort of thing a filthy Slannesh worshiper would do! :mad:
Kill the heretic!

Comrade Penguin
29-04-2016, 16:45
Maybe the rumored summer campaign will see a more definitive setting with locations pinned down on a map. AOS certainly needs that as the fluff so far is pretty airy.

SuperHappyTime
29-04-2016, 19:50
There's a 1 in a thousand chance that if we all buy Total War Warhammer, the jackass that said "We need to can Fantasy" will be run out of the company on a rail.

But no, it's never coming back. Pretty sure the guys who might know how to bring it back are gone too.

herjan1987
29-04-2016, 20:06
There's a 1 in a thousand chance that if we all buy Total War Warhammer, the jackass that said "We need to can Fantasy" will be run out of the company on a rail.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8joT0oFuGoI

Harosyn
29-04-2016, 22:00
I doubt they would , but if they did I damn sure wont buy their new rules. I would only play 8th or T9A , I'm sick of GW printing new editions just to rip off wargamers. When I learned GW was out of Warhammer Fantasy Battle I literally jumped for joy , no more fracking new rules , thats the greatest thing now . GW was just to darn greedy making players buy new rules when they could have just kept with rules they had, so I say good by to GW and good redidence dont let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out. Hooray for the final update with 8th edition and the community produced Ninth Age !

Tyranno1
30-04-2016, 01:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8joT0oFuGoI

I love you for posting this :D

Tarrell
10-05-2016, 07:08
Sega and Creative Assembly are obviously idiots. Somebody should give them a ring and tell them they are about to launch a flagship product with multi-million Euro development costs based on a failed IP. Did these guys think market research was otiose or something?

Maybe they can cancel TW:WFB and instead do a TW:AoS if there is still time? ;)

What, you do realize games development takes years, and the they have been working on this game before Rome 2, yes behind the scenes and slowly. Take DOWIII, do you really think they just decided this year, "Hey Carl you know what lets push out this game for a full release in about a year. You got this right!!".
DOWIII has most likely been in development stages for about 4 years or more. I can only hope your being sarcastic and not stupid

As GW have shelved what little of the IP they owned of WFB, I would rather another group take the mantel and let them bring us to a new High Fantasy era. GW are a shambles of what they were even if they were to decide to turn the clock back, could anyone actually afford to buy back in.

Ludaman
10-05-2016, 09:50
What, you do realize games development takes years, and the they have been working on this game before Rome 2, yes behind the scenes and slowly. Take DOWIII, do you really think they just decided this year, "Hey Carl you know what lets push out this game for a full release in about a year. You got this right!!".
DOWIII has most likely been in development stages for about 4 years or more. I can only hope your being sarcastic and not stupid

As GW have shelved what little of the IP they owned of WFB, I would rather another group take the mantel and let them bring us to a new High Fantasy era. GW are a shambles of what they were even if they were to decide to turn the clock back, could anyone actually afford to buy back in.

He was being sarcastic :)

jozhik
11-05-2016, 04:03
1. Insofar as TW: WFB, yesterday in my local book shop I saw two very thick (omnibus-length) "Total War: Warhammer" books on sale. One filled with some pro-Empire propagandistic nonsense, the other detailing the spectacularly violent and appropriately awe-inspiring rise of Archaon. [Naturally, I purchased the Archaon one, though I haven't yet had the time to take a closer look at it.]

So whatever else GW is doing with the WFB IP, at least they were smart enough not to completely squash it while the people at EA got to business. In fact, one wonders whether more novels are on the way. Particularly as EA is wont to spend at least a couple of years milking the installment with DLCs, as it has in the past.

2. I do not think the clock can be wound back to 8th edition days. Or "reset" to 9th edition.

It's a bit like wishing that we go back to Rogue Trader days, or Second Edition 40k days. Or - for those in the audience who enjoy rolling on D1000 tables (that's D-one-thousand) - the old Slaves to Darkness/Lost and the Damned Chaos rules. We might wish it, but it isn't happening. It cannot happen - the investment of resources would be too great.

What you can do is move forward. The one positive news, for me, out of GW recently is that they are at least attempting to move forward with AoS towards different play modes. Who knows, with enough alterations AoS will become the "de-facto" 9th edition that appeals in equal measure to all or most player bases as opposed to having them descend to Team Edward-Team Jacob levels. And once that happens, in a few years WFB 8th will be just as mythical and forgotten as 40k 2nd (sustained fire dice, how I miss thee).

3. So to sum up - I think if GW feels the need to change anything, it will be to evolve the new AoS framework. Now maybe - maybe - the "future" AoS will look increasingly more like the old WFB. Or perhaps it won't - see how 40k never went back after all the changes made in 3rd edition (and believe you me, some of these were pretty controversial at the time). Is that good? I do not know. As is, I'm holding off on any Fantasy gaming or spending until at least the AoS dust-up comes to some semi-satisfactory conclusion.

Rogue
12-05-2016, 02:29
I doubt that WFB will ever come back anywhere close to what we used to have. Far too many former employees from GW have proven that you don't need GW's capital resources to make great models. I doubt that GW wants to compete in that environment.

MDSW
12-05-2016, 16:25
GW will move to whatever the board thinks will make them some money. Whatever happens with AoS, if it eeks out some revenue for them, they will keep it. If it becomes a money drain, then out it goes. If AoS does go and GW still retains all of their WHFB intellectual capital and sculpts*, then they may decide to resurrect it. It has absolutely nothing to do with pride or principle - it is making money at the end of the day.

*I doubt they have/will...

logan054
13-05-2016, 00:07
I doubt that WFB will ever come back anywhere close to what we used to have. Far too many former employees from GW have proven that you don't need GW's capital resources to make great models. I doubt that GW wants to compete in that environment.

I guess it's possible that 8th ed style game could become a specialist game headed by forgeworld.