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Herkamer63
27-04-2016, 04:35
At first I thought new units and rules for 40k were being introduced through board games, and warzone books. Boy, was I wrong because now we're getting a summer of flyers. Well, a month or 2 of flyers more accurately. From at least from what I've seen, though, it's only a flyers for SM and Orks, and everyone else are getting rule updates for their flyers. Still, pretty cool if you like flyers. Thanks to the Death from the Skies book, the game continues to expand what is already there. With what GW is doing, however, could this be the beginning of a new trend, at least for awhile?

Since we're not getting a new codex anytime soon, I think this would be the only way to go, although a new book would be nice. The Angels of Death supplement was cool, but it left out a BT detachment and relics list (only their warlord traits made it). However, I'm not going to say nothing will be coming for BT because I wasn't expecting a new codex supplement for SM and now a Death From the Skies book with new entries. Maybe a supplement or a warzone book featuring them, and a list of relics, formations, new/old units (come on, Sword Brethren), and a detachment. Why not new Dark Eldar stuff in the same manner? I think everyone is ready for Vect and his Dais, among other things. And how Chaos...know what? Scratch that one off the list. Sorry. That's aiming too high (although their supplements were updated with new stuff).

Bottom line: This, at the moment, since we're not getting a new codex for awhile, is the way to go. I know there's that rumor of 8th edition 40k reportedly coming out, we'll see if that actually pans out and go with this. I know there are alot of people not happy about what's happening right now, but, to me, it's better than nothing. And that's something to look forward to, and I will never give in to what nay sayers have to say because they will always pessimistic about something (even if it's good).

Casper Hawser
27-04-2016, 07:51
I don't think it's a new trend GW have been releasing varying supplements with new units and new rules for along time now.
The new flyer supplement will probably just be flyer formations for all the races. eg: BA take a 100 StormRavens for free and nobody can beat you.



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Daenerys Targaryen
28-04-2016, 21:57
And Chaos will get nothing, as usual, because "screw CSM's!"

MajorWesJanson
28-04-2016, 22:26
And Chaos will get nothing, as usual, because "screw CSM's!"

*burns renegade knight datasheet*

WarsmithGarathor94
29-04-2016, 07:12
*burns renegade knight datasheet*

You mean something which dosent fix the issues csm have

MajorWesJanson
29-04-2016, 08:28
You mean something which dosent fix the issues csm have

Nope. CSM have issues, as do Nids, and to a lesser degree Dark Eldar and Orks. The point was that "Chaos gets nothing" is false. They just get things that don't tend to satisfy Chaos players.

WarsmithGarathor94
29-04-2016, 18:37
Nope. CSM have issues, as do Nids, and to a lesser degree Dark Eldar and Orks. The point was that "Chaos gets nothing" is false. They just get things that don't tend to satisfy Chaos players.

Well not being funny but i didnt ask for more daemon engines or for the codex to be turned into chaos cultists and friends or for the 2 dino bots and a faildrake or for renegades to take top spot over legionaires

Daenerys Targaryen
29-04-2016, 21:39
Nope. CSM have issues, as do Nids, and to a lesser degree Dark Eldar and Orks. The point was that "Chaos gets nothing" is false. They just get things that don't tend to satisfy Chaos players.
It's not really a "Chaos" Knight by any stretch, just basically a paint job and some decals on the basic Imperial version... I just want GW for once to treat us as *********** equals for once, with proper unique stuff, that can still be rooted firmly in "Imperial gone bad".

Where's the Infernal Device? The daemonic possession? The plague cannons and warpflame throwers and close combat weapons with bound daemons in them?
Where's our Dark blades, Kai guns, Nurgley flamers, Chaos armour, and other warped wargear??!

Why are we always just "Loyalists -10"? And the odd time we do get something good, all we end up with is every non-Chaos player inevitably screaming 'its OP/brokenz!'

Comrade Penguin
29-04-2016, 21:51
I'm not a fan of the micro-transactions they have been pushing. If you want to potentially field every unit in your faction you are now required to own a codex, several supplements, and a multitude of data-slates. Consolidation is your friend, and this rules sprawl is just an over-complicated mess.

A.T.
29-04-2016, 22:02
I just want GW for once to treat us as *********** equals for onceThen don't pair up the guns on your knight - there, equal. Jeez.

veterannoob
29-04-2016, 22:36
A trend I think we will see for a little while, like campaigns releasing 7th Ed. At least for our group that was a surprise and made it iffy to buy existing models since we didn't know what was coming. Meaning, oh, Grey Knights...ok, pick up that box from store once we know what the release will carry, etc. I'll be looking for the FAQ at least the Facebook page said is coming next week, hopefully for round one feedback like AoS did.

Moriarty
01-05-2016, 14:24
Why are we always just "Loyalists -10"? And the odd time we do get something good, all we end up with is every non-Chaos player inevitably screaming 'its OP/brokenz!'

Dude, still paying for 3.5. Orks got a decent Codex 4th/5th, and look what happened to it?

On topic, hoping for any new flyer rules to be more appropriate to the scale of the game.

Kaiserdean
03-05-2016, 17:51
Who said we aren't getting a codex soon? The lack of rumors doesn't mean the lack of new codex.

The way these things have been popping up, I wouldn't be surprised if a new shows up any day.

nagash66
03-05-2016, 21:31
This thread never had a chance to be anything but a gateway into a chaos whinefest. And as usual the whines are not even accurate.

WarsmithGarathor94
08-05-2016, 14:24
Nagash you mean wanting to be able to field armies of VETERANS from the horus heresy era is asking for too much? For renegades to be kicked out of the codex and told to use codex space marines is too much.
And I don't care if your a named chapter master chaos lords should be the next scariest close combat hq after a blood thirster

malisteen
08-05-2016, 15:10
Heresy veterans should be just that. Veterans. Elites. They were on the losing side of a civil war, suffered more casualties during the scouring, died in droves learning to adapt to the Eye, slaughtered most of what was left of each other in the Legion wars, and in the centuries since have been far more limited in their recruitment capacity than their loyalist marine counterparts. There shouldn't be enough of them to field entire armies, at least not by default (though it should be possible to do, as with all-Deathwing armies in the dark angels).

On the other hand, those that survived all that, and the millennia that followed, aren't just veterans, they're ancient & immortal warrior kings, empowered by the favor of the dark gods (invited or otherwise), their weapons and armor haunted by spirits of death and violence, their souls bound to their bodies by dark magic born of the warp itself responding to their limitless hatred and overwhelming force of will.

Heresy vets just shouldn't be common line troopers, they should be powerful and expensive HQs (even by marine standards), or high end, 2-wound elite units akin to grey knight paladins or space wolf wulfen. Probably with Eternal Warrior, Fear, and Fearless as default special rules, with others purchasable via a vet skill system that can be used to convey individual legion themes.


Renegades and Legionnaires should be written to emphasize how they need each other. Since geneseed warps to unusability with too much exposure to chaos, the Chaos Legions should be looking to renegades for recruitment, in order to marshal enough marines to really threaten the imperium. Renegades, on the other hand, need refuge from Imperial retribution, and the nightmarish, warp-dominated spaces controlled by the Chaos Legions are among the only such refuges available.

Heresy vets and renegades, along with cultist & mutant rabble, should be different tiers of unit, with commensurate differences in rules and gear and power, in the same armies, not completely separate armies that use the same rules.

A.T.
08-05-2016, 16:15
Nagash you mean wanting to be able to field armies of VETERANS from the horus heresy era is asking for too much?That's just an unbound list of chaos lords and sorcerers isn't it? They compare to other named heresy-era veterans like Lucius and Kharn.

insectum7
08-05-2016, 19:53
Why are we always just "Loyalists -10"? And the odd time we do get something good, all we end up with is every non-Chaos player inevitably screaming 'its OP/brokenz!'

That double-double-battlecannon Knight option seems pretty awesome. . . Nor will you hear me claim it's OP.

WarsmithGarathor94
08-05-2016, 21:03
That's just an unbound list of chaos lords and sorcerers isn't it? They compare to other named heresy-era veterans like Lucius and Kharn.

No the problem is that even kharn and luciuses rules do not scream heresy era veteran
Why do all Lords with the exception of Abbadon and typhus have a inferior star line to chapter masters?

Sotek
08-05-2016, 23:22
The only way to make Chaos happy is to go back to the 3.5 Codex

Daenerys Targaryen
09-05-2016, 00:56
The only way to make Chaos happy is to go back to the 3.5 Codex
Or, just maybe, the only thing the vast majority of Chaos players have been outright begging for, for over 10+ years now, is to be treated as equals to everyone else!

What is the CSM codex currently?
It's a gak fest of mediocre units of MEQ's that mostly do the exact same thing, only without ANY of the relevant special rules that allow expensive, elite infantry to function at a basic level, while paying 5th ed pricing for everything, and being shoehorned into a play style that's only 3 entire editions out of date.

I dare Loyalist players to try and play a couple games without the benefits of;
- ATSKNF
- Combat Squads
- Chapter Tactics (but you can pay on average 3-4+ pts/model to get them back!)
- Gladius
- Grav
- 2+ saves on ICs & 3++ saves (but you MUST always make and/or accept Challenges in combat!)
- Drop Pods & Razorbacks
- no PotMS on Land Raiders, and can only take the basic version
- only 3 powers per army-specific psychic lores, and you *must* take at least 1, but can't have more than 50% of your total powers come from them!

Now welcome to the world that Chaos players have endured in general since 2007, and tell us with a strait face that you wouldn't be fed up to no end, especially when your closest rivals keep getting heaps of toys & new models, while you get kits that are missing half or more of their basic options, and/or are Failcast hybrids...

A.T.
09-05-2016, 08:24
I dare Loyalist players to try and play a couple games without the benefits of;Reads like my old templar army aside for the 2+ on the Emperor's Champion (which I could have lived without). Right down to the compulsory challenges (before challenges existed) and paying 3pts a model for special abilities.

It was a good army, unique playstyle. Shame to see it become another ultramarines.

Spiney Norman
09-05-2016, 09:05
That's just an unbound list of chaos lords and sorcerers isn't it? They compare to other named heresy-era veterans like Lucius and Kharn.

Really? Lucius and Kharn were both captain in the heresy not random troopers, You're telling me that every marine that fought in the heresy on the side of the traitors that is still alive is a HQ level character in the 40k era? Not all of the legions have disintegrated or broken up, the Word Bearers still operate as a legion for example with no real reliance on renegades (though plenty of cultists). The Dark Apostle trilogy indicates a force of traitor legionaries numbering in the thousands led by characters who were battlefield commanders in the Heresy.

Denny
09-05-2016, 09:16
Really? Lucius and Kharn were both captain in the heresy not random troopers, You're telling me that every marine that fought in the heresy on the side of the traitors that is still alive is a HQ level character in the 40k era?

I kinda feel like the answer should be 'yes'.

After 10,000 years of surviving in the Eye it would be a little embarrassing to still just be a basic legionnaire. Chaos Marines should surely have more ambition than that.
In that time you'd think they'd have at least have made it to Chosen (assuming they didn't die/get turned into a spawn/possessed etc)

I know there is time distortion and stuff to factor in, but even after a thousand years you feel like a basic legionnaire should have achieved something beyond understanding the intricacies of objective secured.

A.T.
09-05-2016, 09:24
Really? Lucius and Kharn were both captain in the heresy not random troopersAn unbound army of lords and sorcerers seemed to fit what Malisteen was after, particularly when using relics from the three books to and a unique twist to each model.

It wasn't a comment I what I personally think CSM should be, just a way they could be played with the current book if that kind of movie-marine style squad is your cup of tea.

Lord Damocles
09-05-2016, 09:54
The only way to make Chaos happy is to go back to the 3.5 Codex
Then you'd just go [back] to non- Iron Warrior (and to a lesser extent Night Lords) players complaining that they're not as equal as different colour naughty Marines.

Casper Hawser
09-05-2016, 11:50
I kinda feel like the answer should be 'yes'.

After 10,000 years of surviving in the Eye it would be a little embarrassing to still just be a basic legionnaire. Chaos Marines should surely have more ambition than that.
In that time you'd think they'd have at least have made it to Chosen (assuming they didn't die/get turned into a spawn/possessed etc)

I know there is time distortion and stuff to factor in, but even after a thousand years you feel like a basic legionnaire should have achieved something beyond understanding the intricacies of objective secured.

They've not lived for 10000 years in the warp time moves differently so only 300- 500 years have gone by for them.

Lord Damocles
09-05-2016, 12:00
only 300- 500 years have gone by for them.
So Chosen.

I don't see the problem here.

Rogue Star
09-05-2016, 12:32
I kinda feel like the answer should be 'yes'.

But we know Chaos Space Marines recruit new blood into their organisations, so it's just as likely most of them aren't any more experienced than your 'average' Tactical Marine. Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs are made up of any renegades that come to him and agree to serve, the events when he captured a Space Wolves' star-ship for example. The Black Legion recruit from anywhere, obliterating old markings with the black paint-job, etc.

In Aaron Demski-Bowdon's excellent Night Lords' trilogy, one of the central characters, an Apothecary and the squad medic, was a former Astral Claw, exiled with the Red Corsairs, who decided he was better off with the Night Lords - and stood "in Midnight Clad".

I think there's this very made up belief amongst CSM fans that the Chaos Space Marines' care about the legions - they don't, they swap colours, change schemes and use whatever gene-seed they can scavenge to make new recruits.

Denny
09-05-2016, 12:42
But we know Chaos Space Marines recruit new blood into their organisations, so it's just as likely most of them aren't any more experienced than your 'average' Tactical Marine.

Oh don't get me wrong. I totally agree with that. I'm not saying there are no basic Chaos Space Marines. I'm saying that the actual veterans of the Hersey shouldn't really be amongst their number; those guys should either be dead or have gained enough power to move on to greater things (Lord, Sorcerer, Chosen, etc)

Basic marines squads should therefore consist primarily of 'new' recruits (which is why their stats shouldn't be far higher than normal marines).

duffybear1988
09-05-2016, 12:47
And Sisters of Battle will get nothing, as usual, because "screw Sisters!"

Fixed it for ya.

Daenerys Targaryen
09-05-2016, 14:17
But we know Chaos Space Marines recruit new blood into their organisations, so it's just as likely most of them aren't any more experienced than your 'average' Tactical Marine. Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs are made up of any renegades that come to him and agree to serve, the events when he captured a Space Wolves' star-ship for example. The Black Legion recruit from anywhere, obliterating old markings with the black paint-job, etc.

In Aaron Demski-Bowdon's excellent Night Lords' trilogy, one of the central characters, an Apothecary and the squad medic, was a former Astral Claw, exiled with the Red Corsairs, who decided he was better off with the Night Lords - and stood "in Midnight Clad".

I think there's this very made up belief amongst CSM fans that the Chaos Space Marines' care about the legions - they don't, they swap colours, change schemes and use whatever gene-seed they can scavenge to make new recruits.
While it's true that only the Black Legion still holds their ancient Legion level organisation, the Traitor Legions still hold to their old traditions & tactics!

- Anyone who joins a Night Lords warband, is going to follow their doctrine. Night Lords are still at their core, a bunch of murderous psychopaths who stalk their pray from the shadows, and use terror tactics to literally scare their pray to death.
- A Word Bearer is still a batgak crazy religious zealot.
- An Alpha Legionnaire is still trained to fight using insurgent & infiltration tactics.
- Any newborn Iron Warrior will still be indoctrinated to hate Imperial Fists, and become a master of siege warfare.

Chaos players in general aren't asking/demanding rules for playing the Legions as they were 10,000 years in the past. BUT! The basic identities of those now-broken Legions are still at the core of most warbands, and are no different than Loyalists who get Chapter Tactics.
An Iron Warriors warband for example should still have rules that represent their infamous siege fighting specialties, just as a Word Bearers warband deserves rules to emphasis their religious zeal & overt worship of the daemonic.

Otherwise, Loyalists equally deserve to lose CT's, since they're not their original Legions anymore, and technically they're all supposed to adhere 100% to Girlyman's codex.

Casper Hawser
09-05-2016, 15:12
So Chosen.

I don't the the problem here.

To be fair I didn't read the end of his post correctly.
But everyone can't rise up to be chosen or lords you need some grunts.
I understand a lot of people's frustrations with chaos marines I play them myself and can see why people get annoyed. Personally it doesn't bother me thanks to IA 13 which I feel solves a lot of their problems but I can understand people wanting a balanced codex with fluffy options and rules.
It does get really boring seeing Dani and Warsmith jumping into every thread with GW hates Chaos blah blah blah whether it's a thread discussing chaos or not.

insectum7
09-05-2016, 19:02
No the problem is that even kharn and luciuses rules do not scream heresy era veteran
Why do all Lords with the exception of Abbadon and typhus have a inferior star line to chapter masters?

I think the current idea is that they're eventually 'spawned' or ascend to Daemon-Prince status. But yeah, I'd agree that there ought to be an uber-champion status somewhere in there. This is another callback to 2nd Ed for me, when Chaos Lords could just get bat-**** crazy.

On Chapter Masters though, I don't like that the Iron Hands guy on a bike build exists in the first place. The hero-hammer one-upmanship among loyalist abilities has gotten a little out of control, IMO.

Daenerys Targaryen
09-05-2016, 20:08
I think the current idea is that they're eventually 'spawned' or ascend to Daemon-Prince status. But yeah, I'd agree that there ought to be an uber-champion status somewhere in there. This is another callback to 2nd Ed for me, when Chaos Lords could just get bat-**** crazy.

On Chapter Masters though, I don't like that the Iron Hands guy on a bike build exists in the first place. The hero-hammer one-upmanship among loyalist abilities has gotten a little out of control, IMO.
Chosen should ideally be 2 wound models, that end up being treated as an entire unit of semi-characters; each can be uniquely kitted out, and then have the option to split individual models off into other CSM units such as regular Marines, Havocs, etc... However, the restriction being that they can never leave their assigned unit.

Essentially, it would allow for CSM's to once again build up a cadre of Lieutenants & other trusted underlings, without overly bloating the HQ section.

Otherwise, take a page from Daemons, and give CSM's a 0-4 'Lords Retinue' styled HQ option, which can allow for things like Dark Apostles, Warpsmiths, Exalted Champions & Corpsetakers, etc...

Chaos is supposed to be all about the tyrannical, crazy characters who lead the faceless masses... Loyalists are supposed to care when each individual Marine gets killed, while we will do & sacrifice anything to save the wretched hides of our elites!

A.T.
09-05-2016, 20:12
I think the current idea is that they're eventually 'spawned' or ascend to Daemon-Prince status.3.5 had an interesting solution to that - once you had upgraded your lord beyond a certain point he automatically became a prince (and by the same token you could have your prince until you had boosted your lord up to a minimum level of power).

Bloodknight
09-05-2016, 20:51
once you had upgraded your lord beyond a certain point he automatically became a prince

That was only for anti-daemon stuff of importance, though. He didn't grow huge or so, you still had to buy Daemonic Stature (I think that's what it's called, don't have the book in English) for that. I usually played my "prince" human sized with wings and all sorts of nastinesses.

insectum7
09-05-2016, 20:55
3.5 had an interesting solution to that - once you had upgraded your lord beyond a certain point he automatically became a prince (and by the same token you could have your prince until you had boosted your lord up to a minimum level of power).

Something like over 50 points of Daemonic Gifts right? Yeah I remember system being pretty neat, although I don't recall what achieving the title "Daemon Prince" did for you.

Edit: @Bloodknight, that sounds familiar.


Chosen should ideally be 2 wound models, that end up being treated as an entire unit of semi-characters; each can be uniquely kitted out, and then have the option to split individual models off into other CSM units such as regular Marines, Havocs, etc... However, the restriction being that they can never leave their assigned unit.

Essentially, it would allow for CSM's to once again build up a cadre of Lieutenants & other trusted underlings, without overly bloating the HQ section.

Otherwise, take a page from Daemons, and give CSM's a 0-4 'Lords Retinue' styled HQ option, which can allow for things like Dark Apostles, Warpsmiths, Exalted Champions & Corpsetakers, etc...

Chaos is supposed to be all about the tyrannical, crazy characters who lead the faceless masses... Loyalists are supposed to care when each individual Marine gets killed, while we will do & sacrifice anything to save the wretched hides of our elites!

The idea that the organization of Chaos (hah) is much less structured than loyalists is appropriate. Although champions can already be leading your squads, since beefing up your squad leader more or less amounts to the same thing. Really it comes down to the power level of those individuals. Is the only appropriate solution to have a number of Chaplain-level models distributed throughout the army or organized into squads? Maybe? It used to be a thing in 3.5 right? Champions could have the Daemonic Gift "extra wound" (Daemonic resilience?) for 15 points or something?

How important is the extra wound?

malisteen
09-05-2016, 22:02
The Black Legion absolutely does not hold ancient Legion level organization. If you want chaos legions that have remained more or less intact and static since the scouring, you're looking for the Iron Warriors or the Death Guard, legions renowned for their inertia led by Primarchs exemplifying sentimentality and sloth.

The Black Legion is not a Heresy Era Legion. Abaddon may have been a Son of Horus, but not even all the rest of the founding members were. Most of the Sons were wiped out in the Scouring and Legion wars, and Abaddon himself slaughtered most of the remaining Sons of Horus leadership. Only a small minority of Black Legionnaires are former Sons of Horus, and while Abaddon himself still favors shock assaults and precision deep strike tactics that the Sons elite developed before and during the Heresy, the Black Legion overall bares little resemblance to Sons of Horus organization, disposition, or battlefield tactics.

The Black Legion are true Chaos Marines, not mere Heretics, born in the Eye of Terror. The Black Legion has never fought for the corpse god, has never set foot on an Imperial World they weren't there to tear down. They are the sons of Abaddon the Despoiler, Warmaster of Chaos Ascendant, not that failure Horus.