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View Full Version : For whatever reason, bad news for KOW and 9th Age?



dragonelf
27-04-2016, 10:59
The reasons for the recent announcement by GW can be debated till the cows come home, but companies live and die on their income. Whatever the community was saying, if AOS was selling well then there is no way GW would be tinkering with it at this early stage. Whatever your personal views of the game itself, no one can deny that the pre launch, launch and subsequent releases were not handled well.

This new development feels like a bit of firefighting, and personally I hope it isn't just adding points, but developing and deepening the rules which are too simplistic for a proper tactical game.

Having said all that, for whatever good reason, if GW get this right and develop a system that is applicable to all their scenarios, and works well, then they might reclaim a lot of the market they lost. I suspect many people are like me, and would love to re-engage with fantasy if the system was there to allow it.

So are KOW and 9th age developers worried? Mantic in particular, has ruthlessly tried to appeal to fantasy gamers. They nicked the tagline of fantasy, GW developers and made armies that specifically mirror fantasy armies of GW. I wonder how comfortable they feel now.

2DSick
27-04-2016, 11:03
The reasons for the recent announcement by GW can be debated till the cows come home, but companies live and die on their income. Whatever the community was saying, if AOS was selling well then there is no way GW would be tinkering with it at this early stage. Whatever your personal views of the game itself, no one can deny that the pre launch, launch and subsequent releases were not handled well.

This new development feels like a bit of firefighting, and personally I hope it isn't just adding points, but developing and deepening the rules which are too simplistic for a proper tactical game.

Having said all that, for whatever good reason, if GW get this right and develop a system that is applicable to all their scenarios, and works well, then they might reclaim a lot of the market they lost. I suspect many people are like me, and would love to re-engage with fantasy if the system was there to allow it.

So are KOW and 9th age developers worried? Mantic in particular, has ruthlessly tried to appeal to fantasy gamers. They nicked the tagline of fantasy, GW developers and made armies that specifically mirror fantasy armies of GW. I wonder how comfortable they feel now.

I doubt theyre losing any sleep. Most folk who want points that bad use comps and I for one, don't think I'd go back to whfb after getting a taste of KoW.

Lanparth
27-04-2016, 11:05
The reasons for the recent announcement by GW can be debated till the cows come home, but companies live and die on their income. Whatever the community was saying, if AOS was selling well then there is no way GW would be tinkering with it at this early stage. Whatever your personal views of the game itself, no one can deny that the pre launch, launch and subsequent releases were not handled well.

This new development feels like a bit of firefighting, and personally I hope it isn't just adding points, but developing and deepening the rules which are too simplistic for a proper tactical game.

Having said all that, for whatever good reason, if GW get this right and develop a system that is applicable to all their scenarios, and works well, then they might reclaim a lot of the market they lost. I suspect many people are like me, and would love to re-engage with fantasy if the system was there to allow it.

So are KOW and 9th age developers worried? Mantic in particular, has ruthlessly tried to appeal to fantasy gamers. They nicked the tagline of fantasy, GW developers and made armies that specifically mirror fantasy armies of GW. I wonder how comfortable they feel now.


I doubt they are worried, because they are dealing in different games now.

AoS is a skirmish game. It does very little for a good section of the community. Also, they did burn a lot of bridges. A lot of the people who hopped over to KOW, won't come back, even if the rules are good, if only out of spite. Its more complicated than just GW getting new rules out. They've got a big hill to climb, and that's before factoring in just the problem of prices.

Yowzo
27-04-2016, 11:07
So are KOW and 9th age developers worried? Mantic in particular, has ruthlessly tried to appeal to fantasy gamers. They nicked the tagline of fantasy, GW developers and made armies that specifically mirror fantasy armies of GW. I wonder how comfortable they feel now.

Points or no points, AoS is still a major step away from a ranked mass battle system (8th/9th/KoW)

Those who wanted points could play with Azyr, Mo Comp or SCGT before getting any official approval.

dragonelf
27-04-2016, 11:09
But what they have in their favour is the best models in the game. I rarely hear people waxing lyrical about the mythology or universe of KOW. I'm not sure ranked infantry games have much longevity any more. Forgetting about GW, the best games are now skirmish style games.

Also don't underestimate the importance of official rules, especially if they have been developed together with the community.

For this is to work, it must not just be points values, they need to deepen the existing rules properly. I suspect, though, that they won't.

doyouevenrealisebro?
27-04-2016, 11:11
Pretty sure the rules they are adding are based on SCGT comp. Therefore the core rules are likely to change little. I have played SCGT quite a bit and it is good but it's very similar to 40k still, in that it's all about the list building. So if you turn up with what you think is a pretty sharp knife you realise very quickly that everyone else has brought a bazooka.
Unless they are going to change the core rules, which I completely sure they won't, 9th age and KOW will be fine because they are still ranked battle games. They also appeal to players who prefer a game where the list building stage isn't the be all and end all.
I think the addition of rules will bring back players who may still be on the fence and would rather prefer a supported game.
But for those like me who dabble with aos but predominantly still love rank and flanks it won't sway. We have been playing AoS with comp already, GW aren't doing anything new here. Instead they are jumping on the wagon when they should have been the ones driving.

Lanparth
27-04-2016, 11:13
But what they have in their favour is the best models in the game. I rarely hear people waxing lyrical about the mythology or universe of KOW. I'm not sure ranked infantry games have much longevity any more. Forgetting about GW, the best games are now skirmish style games.

Also don't underestimate the importance of official rules, especially if they have been developed together with the community.

For this is to work, it must not just be points values, they need to deepen the existing rules properly. I suspect, though, that they won't.

Skirmish style games are what are popular at the moment.

Just like 10 years ago, MMOs were the biggest thing in PC gaming.

These things tend to go in and out like the tide. It's not to say that there will definitely be a resurgence in ranked infantry battles any time soon.

But it's almost a lot like horror games for consoles and the PC. No developer would make one, because they couldn't make ALL the money, for the longest time. There was still a market for that game, just like there is still a market for ranked infantry, it's just not the biggest thing out there at the moment.

Vazalaar
27-04-2016, 11:18
KoW doesn't interest me at all. It's for me as interesting as AoS currently is. 9th Age is interesting, but it took 8th edition in a direction I don't like.

If GW manages to improve AoS and it needs imo a lot of improving. I will certainly come back.

If they really want me back, they need to bring the old world back and 8th.

Edit: I think there is a large pool of players that silently hopes that GW gets its act together.

dragonelf
27-04-2016, 11:19
Pretty sure the rules they are adding are based on SCGT comp. Therefore the core rules are likely to change little. I have played SCGT quite a bit and it is good but it's very similar to 40k still, in that it's all about the list building. So if you turn up with what you think is a pretty sharp knife you realise very quickly that everyone else has brought a bazooka.
Unless they are going to change the core rules, which I completely sure they won't, 9th age and KOW will be fine because they are still ranked battle games. They also appeal to players who prefer a game where the list building stage isn't the be all and end all.
I think the addition of rules will bring back players who may still be on the fence and would rather prefer a supported game.
But for those like me who dabble with aos but predominantly still love rank and flanks it won't sway. We have been playing AoS with comp already, GW aren't doing anything new here. Instead they are jumping on the wagon when they should have been the ones driving.

I hope you are wrong about this but I suspect you aren't. I think the core rules need an addition of advanced rules. I like many of the mechanics in AOS, but there needs to be more refinement and the addition of rules that add a bit more depth. I hope these are added because if they aren't, it is nothing more than making SCGT rules official. That isn't an entirely bad thing, but it won't fix everything.

Lanparth
27-04-2016, 11:20
KoW doesn't interest me at all. It's for me as interesting as AoS currently is. 9th Age is interesting, but it took 8th edition in a direction I don't like.

If GW manages to improve AoS and it needs imo a lot of improving. I will certainly come back.

If they really want me back, they need to bring the old world back and 8th.

Edit: I think there is a large pool of players that silently hopes that GW gets its act together.

I don't think GW wants to get back into the game they discontinued. I think they'd more than likely just kill the line off.

But in truth, a cynic is just an optimist whose been disappointed too many times. If they went out and got talented people, and went out and rebuilt a good, strong, Warhammer Fantasy Game, even I'd be back.

Sadly thought, that is nothing but a fantasy I fret. :(

Vazalaar
27-04-2016, 11:22
I hope you are wrong about this but I suspect you aren't. I think the core rules need an addition of advanced rules. I like many of the mechanics in AOS, but there needs to be more refinement and the addition of rules that add a bit more depth. I hope these are added because if they aren't, it is nothing more than making SCGT rules official. That isn't an entirely bad thing, but it won't fix everything.

I read somewhere that the core rules of AoS will not change. Which is imo a huge mistake.

blindingdark
27-04-2016, 11:28
AOS is just too far away from FB's to be of interest to most of the customers they had. They have released a new game but tried to convince people it was the old one improved, and failed miserably. It needs more than points to be salvaged as anything of worth. Right now it is just a derivative version of the game they killed. No one wants that.

Yowzo
27-04-2016, 11:30
Edit: I think there is a large pool of players that silently hopes that GW gets its act together.

For players who depend on game stores for games, sure.

On big clubs people tend to stick on with older/unsupported games for longer, because they don't depend on someone who tries to push new product to them.

AoS has managed to wipe GW-fantasy from many regions. It will take more than points and pretty models to win those places back.

The day I was sure AoS position was irrecoverable was the time I saw a guy make a KoW army from scratch out of brand new GW products (two undead start collecting armies). When even the big splash spenders are looking at alternative systems for their GW minis you know you're no longer the reference.

Bloodknight
27-04-2016, 11:32
So if you turn up with what you think is a pretty sharp knife you realise very quickly that everyone else has brought a bazooka.

I think that's pretty much the case in all systems that use points. There's always something that ends up being better (even if only slightly so, but 5% more effectiveness are 5%, amirite?) than something else, and then people spam that and don't take the substandard units. This is what makes balancing games so difficult, if you don't get it 100% right, there will be issues, and no game gets 100% right. In most cases that people claim that a tabletop system is perfectly balanced, there is often one of these factors at work:
- the community is small and people can't afford to **** off other players;
- the community around the game isn't very competitive and isn't looking for the holes;
- the community is small enough that nobody has found the dirt yet;
- the game is so new that the powergamers haven't fully had time to analyse the game for holes yet.

(This is not true for PC games like StarCraft. If you can throw millions at playtesting and automatically collect ridiculous amounts of data from the players that bought your game and use your platform, you can balance much more effectively. Still it usually takes years and a dozen patches, though).

Drakkar du Chaos
27-04-2016, 11:35
Having said all that, for whatever good reason, if GW get this right and develop a system that is applicable to all their scenarios, and works well, ...

Just stop right here ! We are talking about Games Workshop, they cannot design something right and have fired their best designers years ago but suddenly they are going to design an awesome system ? Yeah right.
Age of Sigmar is a joke of a game and it need infinitely more than just a point value system designed by some polish tournament organizers.
T9A and KoW can sleep well, AoS is actually a really bad skirmish game with a crap lore and very expensive meh miniatures, it's not going to be amazing just because "points value" and erase mass ranked games from the concurrency because GW.

Malagor
27-04-2016, 11:39
But what they have in their favour is the best models in the game. I rarely hear people waxing lyrical about the mythology or universe of KOW. I'm not sure ranked infantry games have much longevity any more. Forgetting about GW, the best games are now skirmish style games.

Best models is a subjective term, the current AoS models for example isn't that good and many competitors are catching up(in my opinion).
And ranked infantry games has existed for a while, probably longer then GW has existed as a company. Much like the tabletop games hobby, GW didn't create it, they aren't hobby, they simply made it popular even tho their rules are only decent in general.
Again, best games are also subjective. I find that Hail Caesar, Black Powder and Pike & Shotte has one of the best rulesets around as do Warhammer Fantasy 8e(9th Age is good as well).
Don't confuse popular with best.

dragonelf
27-04-2016, 11:55
Best models is a subjective term, the current AoS models for example isn't that good and many competitors are catching up(in my opinion).
And ranked infantry games has existed for a while, probably longer then GW has existed as a company. Much like the tabletop games hobby, GW didn't create it, they aren't hobby, they simply made it popular even tho their rules are only decent in general.
Again, best games are also subjective. I find that Hail Caesar, Black Powder and Pike & Shotte has one of the best rulesets around as do Warhammer Fantasy 8e(9th Age is good as well).
Don't confuse popular with best.

I personally think AOS is a better game than 8th but that is by no means saying anything. I still think AOS has lots of problems and as it stands doesn't bring me back into fantasy that I would love to rejoin.

Models are subjective. I love some privateer press models, but as a collection, I think GW has consistently produced the best quality models. Obviously there is an element of personal taste but in terms of sculpt quality they are peerless IMO.

Zywus
27-04-2016, 11:59
Having said all that, for whatever good reason, if GW get this right and develop a system that is applicable to all their scenarios, and works well, then they might reclaim a lot of the market they lost. I suspect many people are like me, and would love to re-engage with fantasy if the system was there to allow it.

So are KOW and 9th age developers worried? Mantic in particular, has ruthlessly tried to appeal to fantasy gamers. They nicked the tagline of fantasy, GW developers and made armies that specifically mirror fantasy armies of GW. I wonder how comfortable they feel now.
Well, the bolded part won't happen (ok, it could, but that's about as likely as GW being awarded the Nobel price in literature for the Realmgate Wars series, or Mantic producing troll models with proportional legs :p)so I doubt that they're particularly uncomfortable.

I have very hard time seeing a sizable amount of people going back from KoW or 9th age to any version of AoS, no matter how many points they slap on it.

What these latest developments might do though is keep people who are playing AoS, interested a while longer, and it might bring GW some more players from those who never picked up AoS but also did not get involved in KoW or 9th Age. So I believe the AoS will grow thanks to these new rules, but it won't primarily be at the expense of KoW or 9th age.

dragonelf
27-04-2016, 12:03
All those people saying GW won't produce good rules need to remember that they have developed the new additions alongside some of the prominent players in the country. See the Bad Dice post in this forum.

doyouevenrealisebro?
27-04-2016, 12:06
I think that's pretty much the case in all systems that use points. There's always something that ends up being better (even if only slightly so, but 5% more effectiveness are 5%, amirite?) than something else, and then people spam that and don't take the substandard units. This is what makes balancing games so difficult, if you don't get it 100% right, there will be issues, and no game gets 100% right. In most cases that people claim that a tabletop system is perfectly balanced, there is often one of these factors at work:
- the community is small and people can't afford to **** off other players;
- the community around the game isn't very competitive and isn't looking for the holes;
- the community is small enough that nobody has found the dirt yet;
- the game is so new that the powergamers haven't fully had time to analyse the game for holes yet.

(This is not true for PC games like StarCraft. If you can throw millions at playtesting and automatically collect ridiculous amounts of data from the players that bought your game and use your platform, you can balance much more effectively. Still it usually takes years and a dozen patches, though).

You raise some excellent points and I do agree perfect balancing is the essentially the farm in Of mice and men, never attainable but always hoped for. However I always personally felt that in 8th that a good player with a bad list will beat a bad player with an excellent list. As there are so many manipulations you can use to counter things. In aos I just dont feel the same and it's a lot harder to overcome using a substandard list.

Although this might be down to not knowing as many tricks. 8th had a lot of manipulation with movement. AoS is not the same obviously. Meta counters always arise in some form or other.

Zywus
27-04-2016, 12:11
All those people saying GW won't produce good rules need to remember that they have developed the new additions alongside some of the prominent players in the country. See the Bad Dice post in this forum.
It'll still be based on the basic AoS rules so I'm pretty confident that they will not be able to make a good product out of it, no matter how may points and army creating rules they add.

I'm sure they'll make a good job under the circumstances but no matter how skilled the architect is, the house will not stand for long if he has to build it onto a bed of quicksand.

Vazalaar
27-04-2016, 12:16
It'll still be based on the basic AoS rules so I'm pretty confident that they will not be able to make a good product out of it, no matter how may points and army creating rules they add.

I'm sure they'll make a good job under the circumstances but no matter how skilled the architect is, the house will not stand for long if he has to build it onto a bed of quicksand.

This is true, it appears that the core rules stay unchanged.

So for me it is hard to get excited about it.

Maccwar
27-04-2016, 12:18
I think for many ex-WHFB players adding points values to AoS would be as much use as putting mudguards on a tortoise. The issues go much deeper than just lack of points.

Vazalaar
27-04-2016, 12:20
I think for many ex-WHFB players adding points values to AoS would be as much use as putting mudguards on a tortoise. The issues go much deeper than just lack of points.

Exactly and it appears GW now thinks that adding points will fix everything.... :(

Malagor
27-04-2016, 12:36
Well to be fair that's because so many got caught up on the lack of points that I don't blame GW for thinking that adding points will somehow fix it.
The lack of points is only one of the major issues with the game and whoever GW talked to, never pointed that out.
It might allow for pick-up games but the rules are still bad.

Dosiere
27-04-2016, 12:56
I read somewhere that the core rules of AoS will not change. Which is imo a huge mistake.

I also hope that's not true. There are some very simple changes that would make AoS much more appealing to organized play aside from point values. Summoning and the way initiative works being my top two. It would be a great opportunity for GW to get away from the IGOUGO system, and try an alternating activation system. I've tried it with AoS myself and it's so much better. AoS is oddly old school in some aspects; looking at other games out there there are some clear and easy ways to make this game better (for matched play), without making it any more complicated.

Mikosan
27-04-2016, 13:01
Are points in AoS bad for KoW and 9th age? Doubt it honestly. The bad news for KoW is they still make crap models, which is of course only my opinion, but the naiads and centaurs I saw recently looked just awful. 9th isn't supporting model lines yet and not selling anything as a product of their own that I know of, so it's not like GW is going to take a bite out of their action.

williamsond
27-04-2016, 13:08
this wont be bad for the competition as the big barrier that mantic faced for instance was getting people to try KoW. GW did all the work for them and now people are invested in KoW. It will be harder for GW to get those that left back, than for mantic to hold on to the new players.

Mikosan
27-04-2016, 13:45
this wont be bad for the competition as the big barrier that mantic faced for instance was getting people to try KoW. GW did all the work for them and now people are invested in KoW. It will be harder for GW to get those that left back, than for mantic to hold on to the new players.

Are they though? Invested in KoW. It was propped up as a system by people using their warhammer armies after the great calamity and while some no doubt bought models since then the outlay of cash with mantic isn't nearly as large as old warhammer armies so I doubt the players are tethered to it like they felt with GW and WHFB.

Not saying you are wrong, just thinking out loud really.

Arrahed
27-04-2016, 14:11
Are points in AoS bad for KoW and 9th age? Doubt it honestly. The bad news for KoW is they still make crap models, which is of course only my opinion, but the naiads and centaurs I saw recently looked just awful. 9th isn't supporting model lines yet and not selling anything as a product of their own that I know of, so it's not like GW is going to take a bite out of their action.
I believe the first T9A models (Khemri equivalents) will be available for preorder on April 30th. I read something like that on the T9A forums.

I am also not a huge fan of most of Mantic's stuff but their are some models that I find vastly superior to their GW equivalents. For example the generally well received Undead. I recently ordered an Orc Chariot regiment from Mantic because the GW chariots are too ugly to be touched by my precious brushes. I haven't got them yet but in the pictures I have seen they are quite pretty.

Vazalaar
27-04-2016, 14:24
I believe the first T9A models (Khemri equivalents) will be available for preorder on April 30th. I read something like that on the T9A forums.

Hmm, I am also following this, but I don't have very high hopes.

Also the only official endorsed miniature company is Shieldwolf Miniatures. Which is a good thing for 9th Age, as Shieldwolf mini's are really good. So I hope Shieldwolf will make some specific 9th Age miniatures in the future.

The Khemri equivalents are more of a promise made by Kanadian. I am not so certain if they will look good. The concept art looks great, but most of Mantic's concept art also looked good....

Kanadian and co will first do a terrain kickstarter and than they are planning to release a new army per 3 months. This seems to me very unlikely.

I am also not very impressed with the 15mm stuff they showed.

What I really hope is that some one will make new heroic scale Bretonnians (KoE) for 9th Age. Kanadian said that this would be next after UD, so we will see.

Folomo
27-04-2016, 14:25
9th Age doesn't produce models.
But there are companies that support the 9th Age effort and are producing models for it. For example, for the Undying Empire.

Arrahed
27-04-2016, 14:35
9th Age doesn't produce models.
But there are companies that support the 9th Age effort and are producing models for it. For example, for the Undying Empire.
Technically true. T9A is not a company and does not produce models. But as Valazaar mentioned, they are produced by http://kkgaming.pl if I'm not mistaken.
They are made by T9A community members with feedback from the community and are dedicated T9A models.
So while they are technically not T9A models I think it is fair to use the term nevertheless.

Vazalaar
27-04-2016, 14:37
Well to be fair that's because so many got caught up on the lack of points that I don't blame GW for thinking that adding points will somehow fix it.
The lack of points is only one of the major issues with the game and whoever GW talked to, never pointed that out.
It might allow for pick-up games but the rules are still bad.

I think the problem is that GW only talked with the ones that already love AoS. I.e the SCGT organizers.

So I really can't see how this will make me like AoS. Which I want, as I am a big fan of GW miniatures, but alas AoS as a game stays the same and that is bad news.

GuyFawkes
27-04-2016, 15:09
Adding points now seems like a half-assed apology.

GW is basically saying, "we're sorry you were too stupid to play the crappy game we gave you. So now we've given you a point system, now fork over your cash."

Banville
27-04-2016, 15:20
I think the problem is that GW only talked with the ones that already love AoS. I.e the SCGT organizers.

So I really can't see how this will make me like AoS. Which I want, as I am a big fan of GW miniatures, but alas AoS as a game stays the same and that is bad news.
One hundred per cent correct. There is a major danger of groupthink or an echo chamber effect. I'd be far happier if GW had invited some of the 9th Age crew or even PP afficianodos if they are unswervingly committed to skirmish. I personally think porting over LotR rules as an official way to play large scale games as well as hiring actual proper writers and giving them their head with regard to world-building would tempt me back.

I can't believe I've just written that.

blueraven84
27-04-2016, 19:22
If you want ex-AOS and current Kings of war player opinion no. Probably won't be going back to AOS even if they add points to the game.

Why? There are more problems with the game other than just units missing point values.

Most of the new models don't fit what I liked in fantasy battles aka that grim dark medieval style fantasy. New models look like high fantasy slapped on with power armour (looking at you stormcast and orruks).

The fluff is so different what it used to be. Now it just chaos this chaos that..chaos everywhere...

And then there are the main rules. Skirmish type of game with only 4+ pages of rules and normal army composition looks like fantasy battle amount of models aka way too much.

If GW "fixes" these problems they might get some players back, but I really think these changes like adding point value to the game is coming too late. Most of us who enjoyed 8th edition have already moved to Kings of War or 9th edition or something else.

I can only talk about local gaming clubs and I have no idea how much AOS is really selling worldwide but here AOS has been welcomed with hostility.

Teurastaja
27-04-2016, 21:11
I'm pretty sure Mantic and 9th Age will be fine.
AoS is a poor skirmish game and GW will just add points to it. No revolution here.
It will still be set in the Nine Realms of Whatever. It will still have terribly designed ruleset.
Personally, I don't see any reason to give it another try.

sephiroth87
28-04-2016, 05:42
Are they though? Invested in KoW. It was propped up as a system by people using their warhammer armies after the great calamity and while some no doubt bought models since then the outlay of cash with mantic isn't nearly as large as old warhammer armies so I doubt the players are tethered to it like they felt with GW and WHFB.

Not saying you are wrong, just thinking out loud really.
Just speaking for myself, the more kow games I play, the less I miss fantasy. It's what age of sigmar should have been: simple to learn, uses ranked units, and pretty elegant as far as rule sets go. I'm starting to move on. GW decided people like me weren'twhat they wanted and killed off fantasy. I don't particularly want them back, especially in the form of age of sigmar. I'm glad they're listening to their players finally, though.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

StygianBeach
28-04-2016, 08:24
Hmm, I am also following this, but I don't have very high hopes.

Also the only official endorsed miniature company is Shieldwolf Miniatures. Which is a good thing for 9th Age, as Shieldwolf mini's are really good. So I hope Shieldwolf will make some specific 9th Age miniatures in the future.


Shieldwolf has good plastic Orcs, I would not call them 'really' good because of the arms and the necks. I do not know what the Resins are like though.

KoW and 9th age are mass battle games and AoS is a skirmish game, so I doubt this will impact KoW or 9th age at all.

Spiney Norman
28-04-2016, 08:57
So are KOW and 9th age developers worried? Mantic in particular, has ruthlessly tried to appeal to fantasy gamers. They nicked the tagline of fantasy, GW developers and made armies that specifically mirror fantasy armies of GW. I wonder how comfortable they feel now.

Well there is literally no reason for 9A devs to worry since their project is not a commercial venture (if it were GW legal would be on to them in a second), it's not like their salary depends on it, only their pride.

I doubt Mantic are too bothered either, even if GW do hit the new AoS formats out of the park their customer base is unlikely to shrink below what it was before wfb got squatted, I would guess they've picked up enough new players to give their game a significant boost that are unlikely to run straight back into GWs arms purely out of principle.

Arrahed
28-04-2016, 10:06
Well there is literally no reason for 9A devs to worry since their project is not a commercial venture (if it were GW legal would be on to them in a second), it's not like their salary depends on it, only their pride.

I doubt Mantic are too bothered either, even if GW do hit the new AoS formats out of the park their customer base is unlikely to shrink below what it was before wfb got squatted, I would guess they've picked up enough new players to give their game a significant boost that are unlikely to run straight back into GWs arms purely out of principle.
I am certainly no expert in copyright law but as far as I understand their would not be any legal issues if T9A would be used to make money. I believe the critical part is the distribution of copyrighted material independent of whether money is involved or not. T9A doesn't violate any copyrights so there should not be an issue. But I might be mistaken there. Maybe someone here knows more about that stuff.

Yowzo
28-04-2016, 10:38
I am certainly no expert in copyright law but as far as I understand their would not be any legal issues if T9A would be used to make money. I believe the critical part is the distribution of copyrighted material independent of whether money is involved or not. T9A doesn't violate any copyrights so there should not be an issue. But I might be mistaken there. Maybe someone here knows more about that stuff.

The approach is to be better safe than sorry. There's an expert in copyright law in the 9th age staff so they're just covering their bases just in case.

CountUlrich
28-04-2016, 11:22
But what they have in their favour is the best models in the game. I rarely hear people waxing lyrical about the mythology or universe of KOW. I'm not sure ranked infantry games have much longevity any more. Forgetting about GW, the best games are now skirmish style games.

Also don't underestimate the importance of official rules, especially if they have been developed together with the community.

For this is to work, it must not just be points values, they need to deepen the existing rules properly. I suspect, though, that they won't.
There are great skirmish games, but points or no points AoS isn't one. Saga, Malifaux, Frostgrave ... I play plenty. But contrary to your view ranked massed battles ARE popular, and do draw players, and Kings of War is going nowhere but up.

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk

Yodhrin
28-04-2016, 14:03
But what they have in their favour is the best models in the game. I rarely hear people waxing lyrical about the mythology or universe of KOW. I'm not sure ranked infantry games have much longevity any more. Forgetting about GW, the best games are now skirmish style games.

Also don't underestimate the importance of official rules, especially if they have been developed together with the community.

For this is to work, it must not just be points values, they need to deepen the existing rules properly. I suspect, though, that they won't.

GW threw away their mythology and universe though, and I've not met many people who wax lyrical about AoS's either.

Between the people like me who're reluctant even to buy GW models we like to use in GW games because it might signal to GW that AoS was a good idea, and the people who've spent the last several months organising their communities around KoW or 9th Age or Oldhammer, I don't see the AoS changes making a big dent; block-movement players are away and most won't come back short of a revival of real Warhammer.

Where it might help them is with fence-sitting skirmish gamers(chiefly 40K players) who wouldn't touch AoS with a barge pole before, those seem to be the main group who're greeting the news with any degree of enthusiasm and they seem to be the market GW wanted to court with AoS in the first place...but whether they're enough to salvage it is another question. First, because we have no idea how big that potential market is, and I doubt GW does either; second, because even if they like the idea of the changes in principle, a fair portion of said market is going to be reticent to dive in to AoS since the company just spent almost a year insisting they didn't want any of their filthy smelly competitive-people money and AoS represented the glorious future of tabletop cinematic narrative-forging - such folk would likely come around in time, but quickly enough and in enough numbers to satisfy GW, who knows; and thirdly, a fair few of the existing AoS players who actually liked the "casuals only, get lost gamers" attitude of the AoS marketing are now worried and in some cases angered by the possibility that points-based play will become the new standard for AoS in a lot of communities since that's not what they find fun and it's not the way the game was sold to them, and if their fears do come true enough of them may be alienated and driven off to offset much or all of any gains made from other groups.

This was probably the right move, perhaps the only move GW could make given the givens, I'm just not sure AoS can ever be what they want it to be(be that a true rival to 40K in terms of revenue & profit, or a less-costly way to maintain WHFB's previous level of revenue generation and market share).

Tokamak
28-04-2016, 18:20
Square. Bases.

Comrade Penguin
28-04-2016, 18:30
KOW is the game that is growing in my area, and I do not think AOS with points will affect that. As others have said they are fundamentally different games and cater to different tastes. Plus KOW is a lot more fun than anything GW has produced in a while ;)

Now if only Mantic could up their miniatures game...

Rogue Star
28-04-2016, 18:47
Square. Bases.

Are for squares. :p

Zywus
28-04-2016, 19:32
It's hip to be square..

Rogue Star
28-04-2016, 19:35
It's hip to be square..

A song about the pleasures of conformity? The Oldhammer crowd show their true colours! They won't stop until we're all ranked up and marching in line! ;)

dragonelf
28-04-2016, 21:24
GW threw away their mythology and universe though, and I've not met many people who wax lyrical about AoS's either.

Between the people like me who're reluctant even to buy GW models we like to use in GW games because it might signal to GW that AoS was a good idea, and the people who've spent the last several months organising their communities around KoW or 9th Age or Oldhammer, I don't see the AoS changes making a big dent; block-movement players are away and most won't come back short of a revival of real Warhammer.

Where it might help them is with fence-sitting skirmish gamers(chiefly 40K players) who wouldn't touch AoS with a barge pole before, those seem to be the main group who're greeting the news with any degree of enthusiasm and they seem to be the market GW wanted to court with AoS in the first place...but whether they're enough to salvage it is another question. First, because we have no idea how big that potential market is, and I doubt GW does either; second, because even if they like the idea of the changes in principle, a fair portion of said market is going to be reticent to dive in to AoS since the company just spent almost a year insisting they didn't want any of their filthy smelly competitive-people money and AoS represented the glorious future of tabletop cinematic narrative-forging - such folk would likely come around in time, but quickly enough and in enough numbers to satisfy GW, who knows; and thirdly, a fair few of the existing AoS players who actually liked the "casuals only, get lost gamers" attitude of the AoS marketing are now worried and in some cases angered by the possibility that points-based play will become the new standard for AoS in a lot of communities since that's not what they find fun and it's not the way the game was sold to them, and if their fears do come true enough of them may be alienated and driven off to offset much or all of any gains made from other groups.

This was probably the right move, perhaps the only move GW could make given the givens, I'm just not sure AoS can ever be what they want it to be(be that a true rival to 40K in terms of revenue & profit, or a less-costly way to maintain WHFB's previous level of revenue generation and market share).

Great post. While I don't agree with everything here, it is an excellent argument. The point you make is that GW almost boxed themselves into a corner, now they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Personally I don't think a points system is the main problem with AOS, nor is it the round bases or skirmish style. The rules are too simple and not rigorous enough. There is so much house ruling that needs to be done. The ruleset needs tidying up and refining and I am not sure that they are going to do that. Yes it needs a balancing system, yes it needs army structure, but most of all it needs a better rules framework.

SilentHunter
29-04-2016, 09:46
Kings of War and 9th I would say no, its a different system but Privateer Press on the other hand should be concerned, with their recent announcement, already overpriced models that put GW models to shame on price, poor model quality and a system that is designed for competitive play and not casual play they should be looking at this carefully.

m1acca1551
29-04-2016, 10:11
Nope, they'll be fine...

GW would have to release something spectacular and free to come back into the fold, people say that mass ranked fantasy battles are dead... Well for now, but remember who killed it GW, they poisoned there own well with AoS, which whilst a skirmish game is appallingly expensive backed up by rubbish rules and miniatures that look like something I'd find in the toy section of a retail chain.

Mantic will do just fine there are plenty of people who are willing to buy what they offer because they are priced correctly, backed up by a decent rule list that is free... A bargain in my eyes.

9th will continue to grow as it offers what GW could not, whilst not for everyone it has a balance and an appeal plus being free, 9th would take the bigger hit if GW came back but only if they did it the right way... Which I highly highly doubt.

snyggejygge
29-04-2016, 10:57
In my area Kow is growing, from 2 to around 25 active players in a year (more than we had during 8th edition) & each month more ppl join the mantic bandwagon & I doubt this will change that.
Kings of war has a simple ruleset, but is Hard to really master, while also being 10 times as balanced as warhammer ever was (exception might be 6th edition using Ravening Hordes) , I honestly can't believe GW has a shot at being in the top here ever again.

Kahadras
29-04-2016, 12:38
So are KOW and 9th age developers worried? Mantic in particular, has ruthlessly tried to appeal to fantasy gamers. They nicked the tagline of fantasy, GW developers and made armies that specifically mirror fantasy armies of GW. I wonder how comfortable they feel now.

Probably quite happy if you ask me. If GW had announced they were bringing back a ranked massed fantasy battles game set in the Warhammer world and were loking to undercut Mantic's prices then there would be some cause for concern. As it is GW are still going down the skirmish route with what still feels like a distinctly mediocre game even with the FaQ and additional 'game modes' that are going to be added in.

Myster2
29-04-2016, 16:42
But what they have in their favour is the best models in the game. I rarely hear people waxing lyrical about the mythology or universe of KOW. I'm not sure ranked infantry games have much longevity any more. Forgetting about GW, the best games are now skirmish style games.

Also don't underestimate the importance of official rules, especially if they have been developed together with the community.

For this is to work, it must not just be points values, they need to deepen the existing rules properly. I suspect, though, that they won't.

KoW was designed as a tournament style rank and file game first, the fluff is bad but i don't believe they had any real writers. I'm not sure if they will catch up at some point or if they are going to leave the fluff section out. KoW is the best rank and file game I have played.

Skirmish games are popular now, however, people don't usually play multiple types of the same game system. AoS being a skirmish game competes with so many other really good skirmish games (mk3 anyone?) and it does not compete well with them. The only thing really keeping it alive is the fantasy setting and the quality of the models. At some point players are going to want to give the rank and file type game a play again just for something other than a skirmish game. KoW or 9th age are the only real choices at this point. If one folds, the other will have the ability to actually take off.

Vazalaar
29-04-2016, 17:09
I don't think that 9th Age or KoW will fold. The only big problem for 9th Age would when it is not selected as a main game for ETC 2017. For ETC 2016 there were a couple votes for AoS, a couple of more votes for KoW but most were for 9th Age. I think it will be interesting to see how the country votes will be for 2017.

Urgat
29-04-2016, 17:17
If only Reaper made rules for ranked battle games, and put out whole units in Bones... Nobody could match them. I don't get why they don't do that.

Katastrophe
29-04-2016, 17:37
What I am surprised by, and it may happen if there is a possibility of money to be made, is that some company with a notable character and models type, i.e. WoTC with Dritz or something not putting out an army box playable with 9th Age. They could produce one 2000 pts box with dryads and stuff and call it Drow Legions. No need to sell the 9th Age Rulebook or anything, just put a set of points costs and descriptions of their units in the box and say the rules are downloadable. I'm sure someone at 9th Age would help gladly with the unit costs and rules.

Then WotC could do a few sets of these called Battles in the Forgotten Realms (I think that's where all this falls, not a D&Der). No need to develop a separate rule set. No need for that to be proprietary and they can just produce models for their stuff useable with their RPG and give a nice boost to the 9th Age.

ColShaw
29-04-2016, 17:45
If only Reaper made rules for ranked battle games, and put out whole units in Bones... Nobody could match them. I don't get why they don't do that.

I agree; that could be huge.

Lars Porsenna
29-04-2016, 17:47
If only Reaper made rules for ranked battle games, and put out whole units in Bones... Nobody could match them. I don't get why they don't do that.

It's because Reaper is terrible at supporting games. Warlord has been out for quite a while, and besides minis releases (which are important; don't get me wrong) has had 2 books published for it. Take a look at CAV, which recently got a Bones update. Not much support ruleswise that I have seen...

Damon.

Urgat
29-04-2016, 18:17
That's what I'm saying. If only they decided to take it seriously, they'd be the kings of the hill, easily enough. Price-wise, they blow mantic out of the waters, and while they've really been hit and miss over the years, their latest minis are mostly great.

Zywus
29-04-2016, 18:34
If only Reaper made rules for ranked battle games, and put out whole units in Bones... Nobody could match them. I don't get why they don't do that.
I think they could just make unit bundles of Bones models to use in 9th age and KoW.

There are lots reaper models in peoples KoW armies already, especially for the entries that don't have models in Mantic's and/or GW's lines.

Skargit Crookfang
29-04-2016, 19:08
On the 9th Age Side, Dragonelf I can tell you without a sliver of hyperbole: we are not worried in the least. It means, literally, nothing to us.

All the best to those who enjoy the new AoS changes- doesn't effect us in any way going forward.

StygianBeach
29-04-2016, 20:09
That's what I'm saying. If only they decided to take it seriously, they'd be the kings of the hill, easily enough. Price-wise, they blow mantic out of the waters, and while they've really been hit and miss over the years, their latest minis are mostly great.

CAV is fun but the fluff is awful, (I reflexively call my CAV's Mechs despite never actually playing Battletech). Another problem is the names chosen for the keywords are unintuitive which makes them harder to remember than it should be.

I am happy with Reaper as they are.

Urgat
29-04-2016, 21:06
CAV is fun but the fluff is awful

Again, thats why I'm saying it'd be cool if they did it seriously and not half-willingly. But I sound like a broken record hitting its metaphorical head against a brick wall, so I'll just give up, ok?

Asmodios
29-04-2016, 21:53
Not sure if its relevant at all to this thread but i thought i would post it anyway because it could be interesting for conversation. I just took a poll for minwargaming
Question 1 was what game are you most interested in atm
Question 2 was what game do you want Mini war gaming to start making videos for.
Not only did 9th age beat AOS in the first question 2360 votes to 2014 votes, The 9th age was the number one voted option for wanting videos of with 14.2% of the vote.
I think polls like this show very strong support for a game that is a fan made game

BallinWitStalin
29-04-2016, 22:06
Not sure if its relevant at all to this thread but i thought i would post it anyway because it could be interesting for conversation. I just took a poll for minwargaming
Question 1 was what game are you most interested in atm
Question 2 was what game do you want Mini war gaming to start making videos for.
Not only did 9th age beat AOS in the first question 2360 votes to 2014 votes, The 9th age was the number one voted option for wanting videos of with 14.2% of the vote.
I think polls like this show very strong support for a game that is a fan made game

TBF, I don't see AoS as an option for the second question.

To answer the original OP, I am never coming back. I got out of tabletop gaming in general after WFB got cut, and transitioned into Legacy format Magic. It's way more fun; it's better designed, better supported, and the company that makes MtG actually gives a **** about it's customers. There was a big controversy recently, for example, about them arbitrarily cutting pro appearance fees without notice. The community was PISSED, made it known, and Wizards of the Coast actually responded officially with a "Damn, we ****ed up, our bad. We reversed our decision, and will revisit changes in the future with community feedback and plenty of notice".

When would Games Workshop ever do anything like that?

I do lose the hobby painting construction process, but I am looking into making my own fancy full-art proxy cards (for personal use only, ofc) to satisfy my need to fiddle and make things. Seems to be working out, so far.

I've been to the other side, and it's a lot better. I'm never, ever giving Games workshop another cent of my money. I've even been tempted recently, as I have always wanted to get into Battlefleet: Gothic. However, they burned me once really, really bad. I'm not inclined to get burned again, so I am not ever investing in any of their gaming systems. I'm done, and I'm not coming back.

Ever.

Lord Dan
29-04-2016, 22:09
TBF, I don't see AoS as an option for the second question..
That's because MWG already makes content for AoS.

Asmodios
29-04-2016, 22:12
That's because MWG already makes content for AoS.
Yes i should have made that more clear but MWG already has an AOS battle report segment so it wasn't included in the second poll.

Urgat
30-04-2016, 09:15
Not sure if its relevant at all to this thread but i thought i would post it anyway because it could be interesting for conversation. I just took a poll for minwargaming
Question 1 was what game are you most interested in atm
Question 2 was what game do you want Mini war gaming to start making videos for.
Not only did 9th age beat AOS in the first question 2360 votes to 2014 votes, The 9th age was the number one voted option for wanting videos of with 14.2% of the vote.
I think polls like this show very strong support for a game that is a fan made game


And 8th ed beats them both. It proves nothing, online communities are not representative of the common customer.

Vazalaar
30-04-2016, 09:31
What is interesting is that AoS scored so high, certainly if you have to believe what is posted about AoS on this forum.

Interest in AoS will grow with the new GW openness and the upcomming Generals Handbook. If GW is seriously about supporting AoS tournaments with prizes and coverage. The amount of AoS tournaments will increase.

For 9th Age, it will take a while before 9th Age is properly supported by new mini's that can replace GW mini's. Certainly if you want plastic.

I.e the UD prices made by Kanadian aren't exactly starter friendly. 12,50 euro for 1 cavalry model and around 4 euro per infantry model. Also the mini's don't look exactly fantastic, certainly if you compare with other companies.

Also, what will happen is that the more popular armies will receive the most support, as all those small miniature companies are still business. I also think the demand for TK/UD mini's are a bit overestimated and the poll was influenced by emotion because TD were killed off.

Lord Dan
30-04-2016, 12:52
And 8th ed beats them both. It proves nothing, online communities are not representative of the common customer.
Not that I dispute your second point, but T9A is beating 8th ed in that poll 25% to 19%.

Drakkar du Chaos
30-04-2016, 12:57
The actual live results of the poll (10,000 voters) :

https://fr.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-8RZKF2HS/

2DSick
30-04-2016, 13:29
The actual live results of the poll (10,000 voters) :

https://fr.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-8RZKF2HS/

Nice to see KoW up there with infinity and malifaux. All great games but T9A has really stood out on that poll. I remember taking the poll and voting to see them cover Gates of Antares.

What, it was this week just gone, right?

Skargit Crookfang
30-04-2016, 13:36
Well, while that poll may not be representative of the gaming community as a whole, it certainly does offer food for thought for the folks at MWG. These are the people who, if 9th is played, would probably pay for a subscription (or, in my case, reinstate one). It doesn't need to be a window into the global community- just those who are so dialed into it all, they would search out and vote on a poll such as this- the people who would pay for bronze etc. memberships.

And, who knows, if 9th continues to go this way on MWG, that could be another way for it to reach the larger community.

There is, literally, nothing negative about that for 9th age.

Vazalaar
30-04-2016, 13:46
I thought 40K was on it's decline, but when looking at those results 40K and 30K are king. There is no competition in the SF part. Warpath/Deadzone and GoA are neglectable.

The poll also shows that there is still big money to be made with a mass ranked fantasy ruleset.

GW should just move 8th edition to Warhammer Forge/Specialist games and it will be a good investment. In the meanwhile AoS can grow as their main fantasy game.

Edit: I didn't know of this poll, but I would have voted 8th edition.

Also, it is impressive that 9th Age has so many votes compared with KoW, which is supported by a company.

My last thought is that forums certainly aren't representative when you look at those poll results. If Warseer was to believed, there would only be 10 votes or so for AoS. :)

Lord Dan
30-04-2016, 14:10
I thought 40K was on it's decline, but when looking at those results 40K and 30K are king. There is no competition in the SF part. Warpath/Deadzone and GoA are neglectable.

The poll also shows that there is still big money to be made with a mass ranked fantasy ruleset.

Also, it is impressive that 9th Age has so many votes compared with KoW, which is supported by a company.

My last thought is that forums certainly aren't representative when you look at those poll results. If Warseer was to believed, there would only be 10 votes or so for AoS. :)
Agreed on all of these points.

Yodhrin
30-04-2016, 14:12
And 8th ed beats them both. It proves nothing, online communities are not representative of the common customer.

There are no American tanks in Baghdad! :rolleyes:

2DSick
30-04-2016, 14:31
Why, whenever a poll happens, no matter where or when, is it always nonerepresentitive of the community? Who d'you think is answering these polls? Middle eastern goat herders? Pro boxers?

Zywus
30-04-2016, 14:32
And 8th ed beats them both. It proves nothing, online communities are not representative of the common customer.

My last thought is that forums certainly aren't representative when you look at those poll results. If Warseer was to believed, there would only be 10 votes or so for AoS. :)
Yep. Online fora is apparently not representative of the common customer.
Unlike online polls of course. Who are obviously representative of the common customer.:rolleyes:

I guess whatever shows the most support for AoS is what should be deemed most representative?

GrandmasterWang
30-04-2016, 15:23
The reasons for the recent announcement by GW can be debated till the cows come home, but companies live and die on their income. Whatever the community was saying, if AOS was selling well then there is no way GW would be tinkering with it at this early stage. Whatever your personal views of the game itself, no one can deny that the pre launch, launch and subsequent releases were not handled well.

This new development feels like a bit of firefighting, and personally I hope it isn't just adding points, but developing and deepening the rules which are too simplistic for a proper tactical game.

Having said all that, for whatever good reason, if GW get this right and develop a system that is applicable to all their scenarios, and works well, then they might reclaim a lot of the market they lost. I suspect many people are like me, and would love to re-engage with fantasy if the system was there to allow it.

So are KOW and 9th age developers worried? Mantic in particular, has ruthlessly tried to appeal to fantasy gamers. They nicked the tagline of fantasy, GW developers and made armies that specifically mirror fantasy armies of GW. I wonder how comfortable they feel now.
I do feel like Mantic (9th age is not for profit) is a bit worried about GW's change of stance regarding AOS.

Mantic who launched off the back of GW being the "big evil corporation" might just have executives looking at these developments thinking, "oh crap, the sleeping giant is beginning to stir"

These developments show GW actively listening, communicating and consulting with the community which shows a marked change from the GW which actively enabled Mantic to gain a solid foothold in the industry due to bad decisions, arrogance and incompetence.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Sheena Easton
30-04-2016, 15:41
As long as GW are invested in the Age of Drekmarines train of thought - which they are across all core lines and most stand alone bored games - then competitors, many of whom grew by targeting disgruntled GW customers in the first place, have nothing to worry about.

Niall78
30-04-2016, 16:03
As long as GW are invested in the Age of Drekmarines train of thought - which they are across all core lines and most stand alone bored games - then competitors, many of whom grew by targeting disgruntled GW customers in the first place, have nothing to worry about.

I also have to laugh at the binary choice some give other gamers. I play many different games by many different companies. It isn't an either or in most cases.

GW need to be afraid because many gamers that were solely involved in the 'GW hobby' are now actively involved in the much older 'war-gaming hobby'.

Vazalaar
30-04-2016, 16:36
Yep. Online fora is apparently not representative of the common customer.
Unlike online polls of course. Who are obviously representative of the common customer.:rolleyes:

I guess whatever shows the most support for AoS is what should be deemed most representative?

Well, almost 10000 voters and even with GW killing off the Old World/Warhammer 8th. KoW managed only 13,12% while AoS has 20,97%.. . When you look at Mantic other games (Warpath 3,64%, Deadzone 5,02% and their Bloodbow clone isn't even mentioned). I think that Mantic has some issues.

9th Age is a lot more popular than KoW and as GrandmasterWang posted the new direction GW could be problematic for Mantic.

About the poll, when AoS isn't doing to badly with this poll... it's not valid? While I cleary remember that you used a poll (your reaction to AoS from Avian) from Warseer to show how badly AoS is received.. . Seems a bit hypocrite, no? Also the lastest poll from Avian, about the reaction to AoS only had 271 voters. So I think a poll with 9797 voters is a bit more represantive.

Lord Dan
30-04-2016, 17:15
So I think a poll with 9797 voters is a bit more represantive.
In fact it might be one of the largest polls of the gaming community that I've seen.

Bloodknight
30-04-2016, 17:28
In fact it might be one of the largest polls of the gaming community that I've seen.

It is, but it is still only polling the people who bothered to be a member of an online group about gaming, which, to my personal astonishment, still seems to be a minor part of the gaming community (most people don't really seem to give a crap about the online community part of the hobby), or, as the common people would call it, "only the biggest nerds", who also tend to be the most critical customers :).

Lord Dan
30-04-2016, 17:40
It is, but it is still only polling the people who bothered to be a member of an online group about gaming, which, to my personal astonishment, still seems to be a minor part of the gaming community (most people don't really seem to give a crap about the online community part of the hobby), or, as the common people would call it, "only the biggest nerds", who also tend to be the most critical customers :).

Very true. Still, other than the fact that the "offline" players tend to gravitate toward historical games, I'm not sure you'd find that big a difference in the polled opinions of the 28mm tabletop gamer who spends time online vs the 28mm tabletop gamer who does not.

Vazalaar
30-04-2016, 17:43
In fact it might be one of the largest polls of the gaming community that I've seen.

Exactly. :)


It is, but it is still only polling the people who bothered to be a member of an online group about gaming, which, to my personal astonishment, still seems to be a minor part of the gaming community, or as the common people would call it "only the biggest nerds", who also tend to be the most hard to please customers :).

Indeed, but 9797 voters is a lot.

You can also argue that the group that don't belong to "the biggest nerds" group are the ones that come easlier in contact with GW as that is still the most widely known miniatures company by the not "biggest nerds" group.;)

Anyway, the poll tells me:

That 30K/40K are still the king. Nothing comes close to it.
9th Age is very popular and it is still only in beta.
Mantic is not so popular as I thought.
AoS is not doing so badly as I thought.
GW Specialist games needs to release asap a new Bloodbowl, Mordheim, Necromunda and Gorkamorka!


Edit: The fact that 9th Age is still in beta, I think it means that it still has a huge grow potential. While KoW doesn't, I mean it already exists for a couple of years, it had help of incompetent GW and the killing of Warhammer as we know it and still it has such a low percentage.

Ronin[XiC]
30-04-2016, 17:53
Your claim that AoS has potential to grow and KoW doesnt is laughable. Your "reasons" are poor and you should feel bad for that claim.

Folomo
30-04-2016, 17:55
Something no one has mentioned is the fact that the people who are already subscribers of the channel are the ones that will know about the poll for sure. So their current demographic is the most likely to answer.
Considering they do have fantasy, AoS and 40K as one of their main products, any bias should be towards those games (and by association on other GW products)

Vazalaar
30-04-2016, 17:59
;7622905']Your claim that AoS has potential to grow and KoW doesnt is laughable. Your "reasons" are poor and you should feel bad for that claim.

I was talking about 9th Age, which btw is more popular than KoW. While KoW is supported by a professional company, has it's own miniature line and also have free rules.

But now you brought it up, I do think that AoS has more potential to grow than KoW. Since the End Times, Mantic is pushing KoW a lot... a better opportunity/moment as summer 2015 will not easly happen again. Mantic tried, but missed the boat and this is probably because of 9th Age. I mean KoW tried to become the main fantasy game for ETC 2016, it didn't happen. The country representatives chosed 9th Age and this while 9th Age was still a promise. Now less than a year later, see what 9th Age has achieved.

No, I am pretty certain that Mantic can only go down, although they certainly can try another kickstarter, but I also think that this will not work anymore as you see a lot of complaints about delivery, material, mistakes and etc.. .

Edit:


Something no one has mentioned is the fact that the people who are already subscribers of the channel are the ones that will know about the poll for sure. So their current demographic is the most likely to answer.
Considering they do have fantasy, AoS and 40K as one of their main products, any bias should be towards those games (and by association on other GW products)

Which is exactly the target group that Mantic is going after.

Lord Dan
30-04-2016, 18:05
Anyway, the poll tells me:

That 30K/40K are still the king. Nothing comes close to it.
9th Age is very popular and it is still only in beta.
Mantic is not so popular as I thought.
AoS is not doing so badly as I thought.
GW Specialist games needs to release asap a new Bloodbowl, Mordheim, Necromunda and Gorkamorka!


Yep.



;7622905']Your claim that AoS has potential to grow and KoW doesnt is laughable. Your "reasons" are poor and you should feel bad for that claim.
"You should feel bad for that claim"? Get out of here with that nonsense.

I didn't see him claim that AoS has the potential to grow and that KoW does not, only that AoS is doing better than he thought and KoW doing worse. I agree with that analysis. Now, that said, I don't think it's unfair to assume that KoW may have experienced a flash of growth after the demise of fantasy, and that they might anticipate less growth than AoS in coming months given that KoW 2.0 is already out and GW is about to release a new supplement for AoS. Whether or not you agree with this assessment is another thing, but there's nothing laughable about the notion.

Asmodios
30-04-2016, 18:12
Something no one has mentioned is the fact that the people who are already subscribers of the channel are the ones that will know about the poll for sure. So their current demographic is the most likely to answer.
Considering they do have fantasy, AoS and 40K as one of their main products, any bias should be towards those games (and by association on other GW products)
Yes i was waiting for someone to pick up on this. MWG has been a producer of 40k and fantasy battle reps for a long time and it is their main customer base. Thats why i found the poll so interesting because i never thought 9th age would be beating out AOS on a MWG poll. I think it really shows how many people are really branching out into other products/games now after GW fluffed the release of AOS. There are different ways you can read this poll but i think AOS not stomping 9th age when they are one of the largest producers of AOS battle reports is very telling. Only time will tell but this in my opinion kinda debunks the "9th age can't grow because its a fan made system" argument. More people are playing 9th age then AOS on a poll of a company that pushes GW products hard.

Spiney Norman
30-04-2016, 18:15
Mantic's problem is that they seem to have little to no interest in improving their poor quality model range, they're basically content to be the 'primark' of the wargaming world, which is fine, but in what is a luxury hobby from the outset, a lot of hobbiest are willing to pay a little bit more for something better.

ac4155
30-04-2016, 18:24
Personally I also believe Mantic aren't the best at maintaining momentum or feeling within their games. They release everything at once so you get a sudden burst of great activity and excitement, then it trails off until their next Kickstarter for that system.
Other than model quality, this is one of the other points preventing me from jumping into the mantic universes fully.


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Drakkar du Chaos
30-04-2016, 18:57
...

Anyway, the poll tells me:


9th Age is very popular and it is still only in beta.


...


Edit: The fact that 9th Age is still in beta, I think it means that it still has a huge grow potential. While KoW doesn't, I mean it already exists for a couple of years, it had help of incompetent GW and the killing of Warhammer as we know it and still it has such a low percentage.


Not anymore, the beta has ended with T9A 1.0 being released one hour ago :

The announcement for v1.0 (http://www.the-ninth-age.com/news/index.php?news/287-release-of-fantasy-battles-the-9th-age/)

The rules (http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?simple-page/)

T9A 1.1 planned for September.

Vazalaar
30-04-2016, 19:18
"You should feel bad for that claim"? Get out of here with that nonsense.

I didn't see him claim that AoS has the potential to grow and that KoW does not, only that AoS is doing better than he thought and KoW doing worse. I agree with that analysis. Now, that said, I don't think it's unfair to assume that KoW may have experienced a flash of growth after the demise of fantasy, and that they might anticipate less growth than AoS in coming months given that KoW 2.0 is already out and GW is about to release a new supplement for AoS. Whether or not you agree with this assessment is another thing, but there's nothing laughable about the notion.

Thanks :), but in my answer to him, I did said that I think that AoS has more grow potential than KoW. The fact that GW now is actively engaging with the community, podcasts and etc.. will help AoS. While KoW had a chance of a lifetime when GW killed of Warhammer. Initially it looked like Mantic seized the moment, but now I do think they missed/failed it.

I also think that the reason why KoW failed is because of 9th Age.

While I am still playing 8th edition and do dislike some rules with 9th Age. You can't deny that 9th Age seems the most professional miniature game I have ever seen. The website with integrated rules and armylist is brilliant. I don't think any wargame is every playtested so vigorously. I believe that someone at GW HQ is thinking "Aha, that's the way to promote and support a wargame". :)


For Mantic, I think GrandmasterWang worded it perfectly.


"oh crap, the sleeping giant is beginning to stir"

-


Not anymore, the beta has ended with T9A 1.0 being released one hour ago :

The announcement for v1.0 (http://www.the-ninth-age.com/news/index.php?news/287-release-of-fantasy-battles-the-9th-age/)

The rules (http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?simple-page/)

T9A 1.1 planned for September.

Jup, Just looked it. Infact while I don't play 9th Age, I do visit their website daily.

It's a very impressive release. It is mindblowing that it started with a couple of guys from the Swedish ETC comp pack on a subforum of Warhammer.org. 9th Age is the revelation of 2016.

I wish GW would be so smart to support 9th Age with miniatures. They still have the capacity. I wish, as GW apparently had finished a new wave of Bretonnian mini's before the decided to kill of Warhammer, that the would release it as a KoE release.
I mean if they can talk with SCGT guys, they can also talk with the 9th Age guys.

The fact that Shieldwolf is planning to support 9th Age is golden, as I think their miniature quality is very good!

Anyway, I will forward the finished 9th Age rules to my group and maybe we will also make the switch in the future.

Zywus
30-04-2016, 19:47
Well, almost 10000 voters and even with GW killing off the Old World/Warhammer 8th. KoW managed only 13,12% while AoS has 20,97%.. . When you look at Mantic other games (Warpath 3,64%, Deadzone 5,02% and their Bloodbow clone isn't even mentioned). I think that Mantic has some issues.

9th Age is a lot more popular than KoW and as GrandmasterWang posted the new direction GW could be problematic for Mantic.

About the poll, when AoS isn't doing to badly with this poll... it's not valid? While I cleary remember that you used a poll (your reaction to AoS from Avian) from Warseer to show how badly AoS is received.. . Seems a bit hypocrite, no? Also the lastest poll from Avian, about the reaction to AoS only had 271 voters. So I think a poll with 9797 voters is a bit more represantive.
Not hypocritical at all. I have always claimed that polls on internet (including fora) do tell us something even if they by necessity can not be totally representative. The results of this poll do show us something about the reception and interest of AoS, but so does the polls conducted on Warseer, Dakka etc.

The hypocrites are the ones who disregard polls on wargaming fora when they show low interest for AoS, but tout a online poll (probably with a significant overlap of respondents to those visiting the fora) to be meaningful when it shows better number for AoS.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either internet reception over all is valid as a piece of evidence to the big picture or it isn't.


Worth noting is also that number of respondents of a poll are very much secondary to the process of selection. All things equal, it's of course better to have a larger number of respondents but what's truly important is to have your group of respondents representative of the population (in this case the potential customers of GW products) at large. Both polls are lacking in this but if it can be argued that the respondents of this poll are a good representation of the whole population, that is of much bigger value than it having a larger number of respondents.

ScruffMan
30-04-2016, 19:49
Yes i was waiting for someone to pick up on this. MWG has been a producer of 40k and fantasy battle reps for a long time and it is their main customer base. Thats why i found the poll so interesting because i never thought 9th age would be beating out AOS on a MWG poll. I think it really shows how many people are really branching out into other products/games now after GW fluffed the release of AOS. There are different ways you can read this poll but i think AOS not stomping 9th age when they are one of the largest producers of AOS battle reports is very telling. Only time will tell but this in my opinion kinda debunks the "9th age can't grow because its a fan made system" argument. More people are playing 9th age then AOS on a poll of a company that pushes GW products hard.

Don't know about that, I voted for all the fantasy systems as I have an interest in watching all of them. I haven't played 9th age (there's only so much time) but sure find it interesting and just generally enjoy watching battle reports. I don't know why this has to be such a competition between everyone anyway,.

Actually I do but I find it somewhat pathetic. Hard selling tends to put people off, should be remembered really.

Asmodios
30-04-2016, 20:11
Don't know about that, I voted for all the fantasy systems as I have an interest in watching all of them. I haven't played 9th age (there's only so much time) but sure find it interesting and just generally enjoy watching battle reports. I don't know why this has to be such a competition between everyone anyway,.

Actually I do but I find it somewhat pathetic. Hard selling tends to put people off, should be remembered really.
Im not starting a competition or trying to hard sell anything. I was generally suppressed that the 9th age for a fan made system without any real avenue for exposer did so well. I was really surprised KOW got any significant number of votes considering it has no history on MWG. Like i said when i originally posted the poll i was interested in the discussion aspect and i posted what i took away from the poll and also put that you can read it in several different ways. But i guess speculation is pathetic and we should all be ashamed for discussing gaming systems we enjoy.

ScruffMan
30-04-2016, 20:19
Im not starting a competition or trying to hard sell anything. I was generally suppressed that the 9th age for a fan made system without any real avenue for exposer did so well. I was really surprised KOW got any significant number of votes considering it has no history on MWG. Like i said when i originally posted the poll i was interested in the discussion aspect and i posted what i took away from the poll and also put that you can read it in several different ways. But i guess speculation is pathetic and we should all be ashamed for discussing gaming systems we enjoy.
Sorry, I wasn't talking about you specifically or saying this shouldn't be discussed. Apologies.

Kyriakin
01-05-2016, 09:18
I'm sorry, but the new flagship fantasy game from the industry behemoth losing out to an unofficial, fan-made version of a game it replaced is a disastrous result for AoS. in fact, it only just edged out the no-longer-supported version it replaced - a game that will never again receive and updates and changes to the long-established meta.

With their huge brand awareness and the economics of scale, a company the size of GW should be smashing their old versions and fan-made versions into dust. That is, of course, unless they released a game/setting that has been poorly received and very badly mishandled (albeit with recent hints of improvements in this regard).

Hishbishy
01-05-2016, 10:00
Well, almost 10000 voters and even with GW killing off the Old World/Warhammer 8th. KoW managed only 13,12% while AoS has 20,97%.. . When you look at Mantic other games (Warpath 3,64%, Deadzone 5,02% and their Bloodbow clone isn't even mentioned). I think that Mantic has some issues.

9th Age is a lot more popular than KoW and as GrandmasterWang posted the new direction GW could be problematic for Mantic.

About the poll, when AoS isn't doing to badly with this poll... it's not valid? While I cleary remember that you used a poll (your reaction to AoS from Avian) from Warseer to show how badly AoS is received.. . Seems a bit hypocrite, no? Also the lastest poll from Avian, about the reaction to AoS only had 271 voters. So I think a poll with 9797 voters is a bit more represantive.

Funny, On every poll I've seen on Warseer, AoS had an approval rate of about 20%. I'm not sure how this is any different.

2DSick
01-05-2016, 10:57
It just show that most MWG viewer want to see more 9th age. It's not a measure of how well any system or company is doing ;-)

StygianBeach
01-05-2016, 12:18
I'm sorry, but the new flagship fantasy game from the industry behemoth losing out to an unofficial, fan-made version of a game it replaced is a disastrous result for AoS. in fact, it only just edged out the no-longer-supported version it replaced - a game that will never again receive and updates and changes to the long-established meta.

With their huge brand awareness and the economics of scale, a company the size of GW should be smashing their old versions and fan-made versions into dust. That is, of course, unless they released a game/setting that has been poorly received and very badly mishandled (albeit with recent hints of improvements in this regard).

No its not a disaster for AoS, AoS and 9th/8th Warhammer are different types of games.

There are so many comments on this very thread stating that AoS is not for them because it is not a rank n File game. The difference is like burgers and Pizzas.
I think it is more of an indication that people still like Rank n File games (thus moved to an alternative Rank n File game) and that competition in the skirmish game market is hot.

jtrowell
01-05-2016, 14:48
Mantic's problem is that they seem to have little to no interest in improving their poor quality model range, they're basically content to be the 'primark' of the wargaming world, which is fine, but in what is a luxury hobby from the outset, a lot of hobbiest are willing to pay a little bit more for something better.

When was the last time you looked at they most recent products ?

The recently released abyssals, succubis, salamanders and naļads hard plastic have a fairly good quality, and while of course tastes can vary, they have been fairly well received.

While it's true that there are some discutable design choices (like the recent metal troll hero sharing the very small legs of the trolls making the model much too top heavy for my tastes), they *are* trying to improve, and more and more showing it.



Personally I also believe Mantic aren't the best at maintaining momentum or feeling within their games. They release everything at once so you get a sudden burst of great activity and excitement, then it trails off until their next Kickstarter for that system.
Other than model quality, this is one of the other points preventing me from jumping into the mantic universes fully.

... and that's why they have been releasing regularly new small releases outside what was funded by kickstarter campaign, like many new heroes (troll champion, lycanis) but also a few (metal) new units, like the centaurs or the ogre hunters.

they have also other models planned, like the convertion kit for egyptian undeads (to use with the Empire of Dust army list), naļads wyrm riders have also been mentionned, as well as many other ideas. Of course they are still a relatively small company compared to GW, and currently they are mainly occupied with shipping Deadzone 2nd edition and working on the Warpath kickstarter (with a public beta test of the game)

They do have their faults, but they are open with the community and clearly trying their best to improve, and results are showing. Not as fast as we might want, but with a constant positive trend.

Spiney Norman
01-05-2016, 15:05
When was the last time you looked at they most recent products ?

The recently released abyssals, succubis, salamanders and naļads hard plastic have a fairly good quality, and while of course tastes can vary, they have been fairly well received.

Well on the off chance I was treating their most recent releases unfairly I just checked out their OLS, and oh my, I'm really not sure what to say, the succubi are a bit 'meh', sort of like flat-chested daemonettes with ugly male faces and the naiads really made me chuckle, it's a long time since I've seen a unit concept that derpy from any company, they remind me of a slightly more agile version of these guys from Star Trek TNG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_TANU1UtGTjQ/TGV5e0l8z6I/AAAAAAAABNU/Yd3HA27HN4s/s1600/tng2x19-017.jpg

That's certainly not how I would do fishmen ;)

I think Mantic's problem is that it tries to do far too much with far too little resources, GW is a massive company several times the size of Mantic and they concentrate on running only two games, and has never regularly supported more than 3 with regular releases. Mantic seems to be attempting to run five or six games on a fraction of the resources available to GW.

m1acca1551
01-05-2016, 15:17
Well on the off chance I was treating their most recent releases unfairly I just checked out their OLS, and oh my, I'm really not sure what to say, the succubi are a bit 'meh', sort of like flat-chested daemonettes with ugly male faces and the naiads really made me chuckle, it's a long time since I've seen a unit concept that derpy from any company, they remind me of a slightly more agile version of these guys from Star Trek TNG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_TANU1UtGTjQ/TGV5e0l8z6I/AAAAAAAABNU/Yd3HA27HN4s/s1600/tng2x19-017.jpg

That's certainly not how I would do fishmen ;)

I think Mantic's problem is that it tries to do far too much with far too little resources, GW is a massive company several times the size of Mantic and they concentrate on running only two games, and has never regularly supported more than 3 with regular releases. Mantic seems to be attempting to run five or six games on a fraction of the resources available to GW.

But there in lies the trap, if they didnt/don't position themselves as an option to GW they will chase their tails, avatars of war are great example of miniature done right but executed poorly, with little to no communication and well wait times are rather long so I've heard haha.

Mantic will evolve and learn as did GW in the early days but they have positioned themselves as the budget army kings, some great but some very not great but most average and this may be there trap.

Urgat
01-05-2016, 16:30
edited:
whatever.

Rogue Star
01-05-2016, 16:44
Wow, I thought Mantic would do better in an independent poll, but there is apperantly very little interest in Deadzone or KoW, according to MWG poll.

Treadhead_1st
01-05-2016, 17:46
When was the last time you looked at they most recent products ?

The recently released abyssals, succubis, salamanders and naļads hard plastic have a fairly good quality, and while of course tastes can vary, they have been fairly well received.

While it's true that there are some discutable design choices (like the recent metal troll hero sharing the very small legs of the trolls making the model much too top heavy for my tastes), they *are* trying to improve, and more and more showing it.

I keep an eye on Mantic myself. Having given up completely on Warmachine & Hordes due to the poor model designs, a few years later I checked their stuff out again and their new releases absolutely blew me away and got me to start their game. Mantic models, although some do seem to show improvement (but I don't find it a consistent improvement across new releases), just don't impress me, more than that I find them eyesores.

I know that on the whole Mantic are a very cheap company, it is why many people like the Zombies and Skeletons. However, they still appear to make bizarre pricing choices, and for all the flack GW gets I'm not sure how people can defend the price of this: http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/forces-of-nature/product/forces-of-nature-greater-earth-elemental.html

jbeil
01-05-2016, 18:06
As it stands, I still buy GW minis because Citadel really can produce some quality kits when they want to, and the moon is in the right position, and the entrails of the goat offer good omens.

As more and more of their fantasy range gets Sigmarised and made to look like a very silly rip from World of Warcraft, I suspect I'll start buying from Mantic, because for all the criticisms that their sculpts can be a little silly at times, they offer a very good deal for the money they ask for. I'd definitely consider them if they did Lizardmen, and some of the dragons could work as monsters from the big lizardmen book. Their scenery also offers a fairly good deal.

Dosiere
01-05-2016, 18:08
One issue with KoW is that it's not really an 8th Ed replacement, it's more like a 6/7 Ed one. Which makes a lot of sense when you consider who is behind it, and what they worked on before it. It's player base before warhammer went away were filled with those who had left WFB because they thought 8th was too "ran dumb", which is where their feedback and testing came from for the 2nd Ed.

There are so many fantastic ideas with practical implementations into the game within the system, but it just falls a little flat for many even to some like myself who are fans of it. The movement phase in general is like a breath of fresh air compared to warhammer, the balance is a thousand times better, to my Amazement I actually enjoy not having to handle each model individually, they actually managed to create a full lineup of working scenarios, it scales VERY well, and I totally love the way you can customize your units. Basically, it fixes damn near every issue with WFB but also throws out the good things as well.

They play everything real safe, which is good because everything works and it's simple and playable; bad though because it can be very predictable. I'm not surprised it's not taking over, but on the other hand it's a fantastic starting point for ranked fantasy battles and I really look forward to the eventual 3rd edition.

My dream game would be something of a cross between KoW and WFB. A system that can capture the best parts of each would get my money for sure.

Rogue Star
01-05-2016, 18:16
I'd definitely consider them if they did Lizardmen,.

Don't they? Aren't they part of the forces of nature?

Zywus
01-05-2016, 19:12
I'd definitely consider them if they did Lizardmen, and some of the dragons could work as monsters from the big lizardmen book. Their scenery also offers a fairly good deal.


Don't they? Aren't they part of the forces of nature?
There is a lizardmen equivalent list (Salamanders). The basic troops (saurus equivalents) are shared with Forces of nature and are the only models available from Mantic so far.
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/forces-of-nature/product/forces-of-nature-salamander-regiment.html

Maccwar
02-05-2016, 00:41
I'm not sure how people can defend the price of this: http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/forces-of-nature/product/forces-of-nature-greater-earth-elemental.html

That's a fairly big chunk of resin, the base is 75x75 IIRC. Mantic have no in house resin casting capability so are having to get these done elsewhere. There are some really nice painted versions that people have done on some of the Facebook groups.

Spiney Norman
02-05-2016, 10:22
That's a fairly big chunk of resin, the base is 75x75 IIRC. Mantic have no in house resin casting capability so are having to get these done elsewhere. There are some really nice painted versions that people have done on some of the Facebook groups.

Excuses really, it still looks utterly terrible and is costed at GW-level prices for an equivalent model.

jtrowell
02-05-2016, 10:45
I keep an eye on Mantic myself. Having given up completely on Warmachine & Hordes due to the poor model designs, a few years later I checked their stuff out again and their new releases absolutely blew me away and got me to start their game. Mantic models, although some do seem to show improvement (but I don't find it a consistent improvement across new releases), just don't impress me, more than that I find them eyesores.

I know that on the whole Mantic are a very cheap company, it is why many people like the Zombies and Skeletons. However, they still appear to make bizarre pricing choices, and for all the flack GW gets I'm not sure how people can defend the price of this: http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/forces-of-nature/product/forces-of-nature-greater-earth-elemental.html

You might not realize from the picture, but this model is huge, the base is 75x75mm and it barely fit on it, and it is cast in resin (not restic, more like what Forge World use), it's the same for their Archfiend (major demon)

Picture with the famous "Sir Forscale" from reaper : http://forum.reapermini.com/uploads/monthly_01_2016/post-13800-0-75506500-1453505426.jpeg

Another picture, this time unpainted and with a mantic skeleton and werewolf for scale (note that the werewolf is large infantry, so more or less ogre sized)

jtrowell
02-05-2016, 10:52
Excuses really, it still looks utterly terrible and is costed at GW-level prices for an equivalent model.


For this size of models, the only thing that I see aproching it are huge kits like the ogre Thundertusk (36£, so more expensive) or similar sized models, and you are comparing plastic to hand cast resin, and the price of this kind of model has explosed over the recent years with GW, so that you now have to pay for exemple £65 for the new Orruk Maw crusha.

And of course I was comparing in £, due to GW currency practices, the elemental should comapre even more favorably in $ or €.

That you might not like the design of the model itself is fair, but using it as a way to show GW as cheaper is misleading and false.

GrandmasterWang
02-05-2016, 10:55
Excuses really, it still looks utterly terrible and is costed at GW-level prices for an equivalent model.
Hmmm... i dunno... i actually kind of like this big goofy guy and i normally hate Mantic models. He has a kind of cute goofy charm to him imo. The elemental is however still significantly cheaper than GW models in that size range. I don't believe the elemental is customizable at all. I could actually see this elemental and an Idol of Gork (fw) chilling together they have similar styles.

I have no idea what Mantic have done to make me like this release more than their other stuff....

Elemental magic maybe.

This elemental looks to me to be a slightly rejigged Greater Obsidian Golem

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Arrahed
02-05-2016, 11:22
That golem monster would be a pretty good Great Green Idol for T9A.
There Forest Shamblers are also quite nice. Not perfect but way nicer than GW's Treekin.
I like the cetaurs, too. The mounts of GW's Wild Hunters look so weird that I never bought them. Unfortunately, these are not really cheaper.

The lizards and fishes are not really my cup of tea.

Treadhead_1st
02-05-2016, 13:04
That's a fairly big chunk of resin, the base is 75x75 IIRC. Mantic have no in house resin casting capability so are having to get these done elsewhere. There are some really nice painted versions that people have done on some of the Facebook groups.


You might not realize from the picture, but this model is huge, the base is 75x75mm and it barely fit on it, and it is cast in resin (not restic, more like what Forge World use), it's the same for their Archfiend (major demon)

Picture with the famous "Sir Forscale" from reaper : http://forum.reapermini.com/uploads/monthly_01_2016/post-13800-0-75506500-1453505426.jpeg

Another picture, this time unpainted and with a mantic skeleton and werewolf for scale (note that the werewolf is large infantry, so more or less ogre sized)

The base may be huge, but the model itself doesn't look that big - it looks even smaller with "Sir Forscale".

It is a poorly sculpted model, and the cost is massive for what it is. Compare it to what their competitors offer in a similar price-band (exact matches are hard, these examples vary between £20 and £36):

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/warbeasts/brennos-the-elderhorn
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/72035_Megalith_WEB.jpg
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/72057_PurebloodWarpwolfWEB.jpg
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/legion-of-everblight/warbeasts/neraph
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/legion-of-everblight/warbeasts/zuriel

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cygnar/warjacks/dynamo
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cygnar/warjacks/thunderhead
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/retribution-of-scyrah/warjacks/imperatus
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/convergence-of-cyriss/warjacks/modulator
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/convergence-of-cyriss/warjacks/cipher

Judging by Sir Forscale these are roughly the same size (perhaps not including the top crystals), vary between white metal+resin and plastic kits, and PP does not have in-house production facilities either.

There are tons of GW kits that are bigger, far more detailed and better sculpted and a similar cost (Triarch Stalker, for example), but I felt some non-GW examples would be appreciated.

sephiroth87
02-05-2016, 14:04
One issue with KoW is that it's not really an 8th Ed replacement, it's more like a 6/7 Ed one. Which makes a lot of sense when you consider who is behind it, and what they worked on before it. It's player base before warhammer went away were filled with those who had left WFB because they thought 8th was too "ran dumb", which is where their feedback and testing came from for the 2nd Ed.

There are so many fantastic ideas with practical implementations into the game within the system, but it just falls a little flat for many even to some like myself who are fans of it. The movement phase in general is like a breath of fresh air compared to warhammer, the balance is a thousand times better, to my Amazement I actually enjoy not having to handle each model individually, they actually managed to create a full lineup of working scenarios, it scales VERY well, and I totally love the way you can customize your units. Basically, it fixes damn near every issue with WFB but also throws out the good things as well.

They play everything real safe, which is good because everything works and it's simple and playable; bad though because it can be very predictable. I'm not surprised it's not taking over, but on the other hand it's a fantastic starting point for ranked fantasy battles and I really look forward to the eventual 3rd edition.

My dream game would be something of a cross between KoW and WFB. A system that can capture the best parts of each would get my money for sure.
I feel the same way. Very good post.

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Arrahed
02-05-2016, 14:47
The base may be huge, but the model itself doesn't look that big - it looks even smaller with "Sir Forscale".

It is a poorly sculpted model, and the cost is massive for what it is. Compare it to what their competitors offer in a similar price-band (exact matches are hard, these examples vary between £20 and £36):

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/warbeasts/brennos-the-elderhorn
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/72035_Megalith_WEB.jpg
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/72057_PurebloodWarpwolfWEB.jpg
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/legion-of-everblight/warbeasts/neraph
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/legion-of-everblight/warbeasts/zuriel

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cygnar/warjacks/dynamo
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cygnar/warjacks/thunderhead
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/retribution-of-scyrah/warjacks/imperatus
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/convergence-of-cyriss/warjacks/modulator
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/convergence-of-cyriss/warjacks/cipher

Judging by Sir Forscale these are roughly the same size (perhaps not including the top crystals), vary between white metal+resin and plastic kits, and PP does not have in-house production facilities either.

There are tons of GW kits that are bigger, far more detailed and better sculpted and a similar cost (Triarch Stalker, for example), but I felt some non-GW examples would be appreciated.

It is of course a matter of taste but in my opinion the Mantic Golem is definitively at the same quality level as the Privateer Press models. A comparable price therefore seems completely justified to me.
The Triarch Stalker is more detailed for a comparable price. However, the Mantic Golem is a resin model which is much more expensive to cast than GW's plastic.

Spiney Norman
03-05-2016, 01:11
The elemental is however still significantly cheaper than GW models in that size range. I don't believe the elemental is customizable at all. I could actually see this elemental and an Idol of Gork (fw) chilling together they have similar styles.

IMO the FW idol of gork is one of the worst models FW have ever made, the lack of detail makes it look positively lazy next to something like the river troll hag.

That Mantic elemental is only slightly cheaper than the stegadon/arachnarok and very much in the same ball park as the warhammer giant, all three are way ahead of the Mantic sculpt in terms of quality, and I honestly can't envisage it being much bigger than those three GW models, whatever size base it is on.

Asmodios
03-05-2016, 02:31
I bought the greater obsidian golem to use as a Great green Idol and i really like the model. Im going to paint it as snow covered rock with green glowing cracks to match my goblins theme. I looked around for various models for the great green idol but this is the only one i really liked and the price was good.

Dosiere
03-05-2016, 02:47
Mantic has some real losers in the model department. I say this as a fan of both their game and several of their ranges. The Basilian men at arms are a blight upon the hobby, it's hard for even a talented painter to get them looking even decent.

That elemental is not really one of them though. Painted up you can see the details are sharp, and it can look pretty sweet. I've seen one on the table and I would not mind putting one down. I'm sort of a snob when it comes to my miniatures too. I hate playing with unpainted minis and I refuse to play with minis I don't think look good whatever the price. I'm not saying it's the best example in its size or price range across various manufacturers; but there are far worse offenders in their own ranges and among other companies that are more objectively bad.

I think one thing is that some of us don't WANT all the extra boondoggles on every square inch of every miniature. It's annoying to paint and makes converting more difficult, and can actually distract from the look of your army. As an example I do not like all the bags, belts, skulls, bones, hourglasses, etc, etc... All over the newer empire state troops.

Regardless, if you're looking for one off monsters, creatures, dragons, etc... Reaper bones is the first place I'd check. They have long had a great selection of well sculpted minis, and their bones range is dirt ******* cheap for what you get. I used a bunch of their ogre and troll minis (ofc it was all metal back then) to make my troll units in WFB and they look great, despite my very amateur skills at the time.

TL:dr there are far lower hanging bones to pick with Mantic and other companies regarding either the price or sculpting than that Mantic elemental.

Urgat
03-05-2016, 06:54
Regardless, if you're looking for one off monsters, creatures, dragons, etc... Reaper bones is the first place I'd check. They have long had a great selection of well sculpted minis, and their bones range is dirt ******* cheap for what you get. I used a bunch of their ogre and troll minis (ofc it was all metal back then) to make my troll units in WFB and they look great, despite my very amateur skills at the time.

Yeah. I'm a huge Reaper fan (ever since their first Bones kickstarter. I'd never bought anything from them before). The Bones minis are cheap as hell, and perfectly adapted for big monsters too.
I'll just say that while they have some amazing minis, they also have some true stinkers :p

Drakkar du Chaos
03-05-2016, 10:38
IMO the FW idol of gork is one of the worst models FW have ever made, the lack of detail makes it look positively lazy next to something like the river troll hag.

Just take a big rock, sculpt it, glue some orks things on it and you're good to go.

jtrowell
03-05-2016, 12:39
Hmmm... i dunno... i actually kind of like this big goofy guy and i normally hate Mantic models. He has a kind of cute goofy charm to him imo. The elemental is however still significantly cheaper than GW models in that size range. I don't believe the elemental is customizable at all. I could actually see this elemental and an Idol of Gork (fw) chilling together they have similar styles.

I have no idea what Mantic have done to make me like this release more than their other stuff....

Elemental magic maybe.

This elemental looks to me to be a slightly rejigged Greater Obsidian Golem

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Yes, it's the same body with different unarmored arms and a different head, it was already planned like that during the kickstarter.

The arms and head are round slots so can be posed, but I rather like the gorrilla pose with both arms on the ground, as it make the small legs more appropriate if he uses his arms to support his weight.

MDSW
03-05-2016, 15:07
Mantic has some real losers in the model department. I say this as a fan of both their game and several of their ranges. The Basilian men at arms are a blight upon the hobby, it's hard for even a talented painter to get them looking even decent.

That elemental is not really one of them though. Painted up you can see the details are sharp, and it can look pretty sweet. I've seen one on the table and I would not mind putting one down. I'm sort of a snob when it comes to my miniatures too. I hate playing with unpainted minis and I refuse to play with minis I don't think look good whatever the price. I'm not saying it's the best example in its size or price range across various manufacturers; but there are far worse offenders in their own ranges and among other companies that are more objectively bad.

I think one thing is that some of us don't WANT all the extra boondoggles on every square inch of every miniature. It's annoying to paint and makes converting more difficult, and can actually distract from the look of your army. As an example I do not like all the bags, belts, skulls, bones, hourglasses, etc, etc... All over the newer empire state troops.

Regardless, if you're looking for one off monsters, creatures, dragons, etc... Reaper bones is the first place I'd check. They have long had a great selection of well sculpted minis, and their bones range is dirt ******* cheap for what you get. I used a bunch of their ogre and troll minis (ofc it was all metal back then) to make my troll units in WFB and they look great, despite my very amateur skills at the time.

TL:dr there are far lower hanging bones to pick with Mantic and other companies regarding either the price or sculpting than that Mantic elemental.

My sentiments exactly for the most part - well done.

I have been a Mantic supporter due to other reasons than most. As a very casual gamer, the WHFB ruleset even beyon 6th just got to be too much. The intellectual investment it took to learn every rule and army list was just too much of a commitment. With KoW I found a simpler ruleset and balanced army lists. Sure, it does not have the depth of WHFB, but that was OK for me.

The Mantic minis have always been high and low. Some have been stellar, some 'meh', and some real stinkers. I will say that overall they have gotten better. Their Abyssal line is really nice, although the weak spot is the succubi, I will admit these could have been executed a bit better. However, the Molochs are REALLY nice! And, the newest Ogre Berserkers are hands down some of the best sculpts to come out of any company in a good number of years, IMO. Mantic started as a piggy-back alternative onto GW and any resurgence by GW will be met with the same. If you use your GW models with their rules, then Mantic does not make any money. Only when you jump into a Mantic army, then Mantic wins. Mantic must up the quality of their minis to be consistently great to ever leap in market share beyond what they enjoy now with what has already happened with AoS.

GW's average mini quality was always well above par. Sure, they had some that were not so great, but for the most part, I always liked them and only bought the models I liked anyway. Another thread had some rumours regarding the next WFB starter box was to have Brets with some great new sculpts teed up, including a King/Knight on hippogriff that supposedly put the Elf from IoB to shame. But, alas, I guess we will never see these - but, who knows.

Reaper to me is a one-off buy for the odd one here and there. I could not stand to work with their soft material for a complete army.

Bloodknight
03-05-2016, 17:58
However, the Molochs are REALLY nice!

Either they need to take better photos or I'm not seeing it. They're certainly oldschool, and I have a heart for oldschool miniatures, but I'm not sure if I like them. Stylewise they remind me of the old GW Dragon Ogres with the funny faces and such (and I love funny ogre faces, I've got 20 of the 2nd edition IG Ogryns and I intend to get a ton of Golgfag's Ogres at some point), but it's not WFB 5th edition anymore, I don't think I would buy those new for a new game with no nostalgia value for me.

Urgat
03-05-2016, 18:11
Their Abyssal line is really nice, although the weak spot is the succubi, I will admit these could have been executed a bit better. However, the Molochs are REALLY nice!

That's amusing:
you prompted me to go check those molochs and I find them dire. Really, really awful, if you ask me.
But I also looked at the succubi and I actually think they're pretty good minis (weapons aside), and so are the lower abyssal regiment dudes (they're not allowed a name?), champion included. Even that Ba'su'su guy is quite decent, if light on details. The other big demons can fall in the same pit as the molochs for all I care, but, really, the small demon guys are quite nice, at least they do't have those compltely weird proportions that plague the rest of Mantic's range (those Basyleans... :eyebrows: )

Treadhead_1st
03-05-2016, 18:48
It is of course a matter of taste but in my opinion the Mantic Golem is definitively at the same quality level as the Privateer Press models. A comparable price therefore seems completely justified to me.
The Triarch Stalker is more detailed for a comparable price. However, the Mantic Golem is a resin model which is much more expensive to cast than GW's plastic.

Funnily enough, I think not :D. I know aesthetic tastes differ, but I don't see how you can say it is on the same level. The matter of the material it is made from is up to the company, and they went for a more expensive casting method (though I imagine that thing would cost a bomb in metal, PP shows you can make models of that scale in PVC-plastic or GW-style-plastic (both outsourced) with far greater levels of detail and complexity for a similar price.


TL:dr there are far lower hanging bones to pick with Mantic and other companies regarding either the price or sculpting than that Mantic elemental.

Indeed there are (every range from every company has complete stinkers) but I picked something I knew was brand new, in the past I have been told I was looking at really old Mantic sculpts and the new stuff was better. I will admit I thought the Forces of the Abyss were an older army I had somehow missed on previous investigations of the Mantic line, given what I feel their quality is like, rather than something that came out relatively recently. I would have definitely picked some examples from that range, but opted for a Pre-Order model instead.


Their Abyssal line is really nice, although the weak spot is the succubi, I will admit these could have been executed a bit better. However, the Molochs are REALLY nice! And, the newest Ogre Berserkers are hands down some of the best sculpts to come out of any company in a good number of years, IMO.

Oddly I think the Succubi are the better regiment of all the ones shown, even if they seem to have tiny-hand-syndrome (look at the one back-left on the Mantic store page picture) - some of the faces are really bad, but others are ok. I think the Molochs are abysmal, but that might be a stylistic thing - they remind me of the worst parts of 2nd Edition 40K goofiness, particularly the ones on each end (and that is a tiny spear-haft on the left). There's one model in that range that I think is pretty good, Ba'su'su the Vile. Everything else, in my opinion, suffers from poor poses and/or a lack of sharp detail.

Arrahed
03-05-2016, 20:13
Funnily enough, I think not :D. I know aesthetic tastes differ, but I don't see how you can say it is on the same level. The matter of the material it is made from is up to the company, and they went for a more expensive casting method (though I imagine that thing would cost a bomb in metal, PP shows you can make models of that scale in PVC-plastic or GW-style-plastic (both outsourced) with far greater levels of detail and complexity for a similar price.

Of course a company can make these things in plastic. The size of the model is not really the issue here. I think the problem is that only games with very large player bases can afford to manufacture models in plastic that are used typically only once per army. I don't think Mantic is at that point yet so they have to use more expensive casting methods which makes some of their models more expensive than they could be if they were plastic.

I see however no difference in the quality of the models. I always thought the details of PP's models are too 'muddy'. To me they look like they were placed in a river for a few days to wash away all the sharp edges. But since this is purely a matter of taste it is probably not a good idea to fight about that. :)

veterannoob
03-05-2016, 21:21
That's amusing:
you prompted me to go check those molochs and I find them dire. Really, really awful, if you ask me.
But I also looked at the succubi and I actually think they're pretty good minis (weapons aside), and so are the lower abyssal regiment dudes (they're not allowed a name?), champion included. Even that Ba'su'su guy is quite decent, if light on details. The other big demons can fall in the same pit as the molochs for all I care, but, really, the small demon guys are quite nice, at least they do't have those compltely weird proportions that plague the rest of Mantic's range (those Basyleans... :eyebrows: )

mantic models are getting better and they do, IMO, really shine when all together in a full army. For me they are still nowhere near GW quality but to each his own. To be fair, I've found with Dreadball and buying a large Abyssal Dwarf army they paint jobs seem to suck more often than not in the website but models are better in hand. Never figured out why that's still happening. The lesser golems are nice and the greater golem is pricier as I can't find good discount on Mantic models since Miniature Market isn't doing clearance anymore on KoW:( but that Lord on Great Taurus thingy is...I hope better in Person. Their Abyssal dwarf demonsmith looks on their website like one of the best new models, it's from winter I believe.

Have kept up on KS KoW and , well, the Molochs look ok but the centaurs I've seen some praise for them on warseer...I just can't get into it. But if someone has found a great paint job on them please do post.

Zywus
03-05-2016, 22:40
Mantic would really benefit from showing decent pictures of their models unpainted, assembled and on the sprues.
The paintjobs aren't exactly bad as such, but often they really don't show their minis at their best.

Concerning the abyssals, I'm in the camp who appreciate the lower abbyssals and the molochs far more then the succubi. It might be cause the lower abyssals have a strong Heroes of might and magic III feel to them, and the Molochs remind me of the original Dungeon Keeper. Two wonderful games from a simpler and more carefree time.

CountUlrich
03-05-2016, 23:03
One thing to take into account when looking at Mantic models on their website, is that they use really s***** painters... Most of the models are actually quite a bit better looking than they appear on Mantic's because of that.

For example take a look at this picture, and then go look on their website at the elf dragon.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160503/d8902619ed0879309929af040ed81a61.jpg

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CountUlrich
03-05-2016, 23:04
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160503/afdaeddfa759e79f1c0e199be8ab80cf.jpg

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Lord Dan
03-05-2016, 23:21
My opinion of Mantic models can be summed up in the following:

"Please review the picture of the attached Mantic model and select the option that best describes your opinion of it.

a. Acceptable
b. Somewhat Terrible
c. Terrible
d. Very Terrible"

Karak Norn Clansman
03-05-2016, 23:25
Age of Sigmar is a skirmish game. It occupies a different niche from the massed ranked unit wargame of WHFB/9th Age/KoW. They can easily coexist, should GW succeed with AoS.

Yowzo
04-05-2016, 10:46
One thing to take into account when looking at Mantic models on their website, is that they use really s***** painters... Most of the models are actually quite a bit better looking than they appear on Mantic's because of that.

For example take a look at this picture, and then go look on their website at the elf dragon.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160503/d8902619ed0879309929af040ed81a61.jpg

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Obviously a good paintjob turns even the worst mini into something you're glad to see on the table.

Still it's a subpar effort. I'd have bought the mantic Dragon 10 years ago, not now.

For cheap regiments (skellies and the sort) Mantic is OK. For big centrepieces they still have a long road ahead of them.

veterannoob
04-05-2016, 10:50
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160503/afdaeddfa759e79f1c0e199be8ab80cf.jpg

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Holy cow! yeah, big diff. And it's no secret this keeps happening so I wonder how long this will keep happening.

CountUlrich
04-05-2016, 14:59
Holy cow! yeah, big diff. And it's no secret this keeps happening so I wonder how long this will keep happening.
It's something that some of us with connections have talked to them about, whether or when they change is any body's guess though.

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Comrade Penguin
04-05-2016, 15:36
I agree on the Mantic painting issue. I really disliked the stone golems when I saw them online, but someone at my shop brought them in with a beautiful paint scheme and the figures were quite nice. Same goes for their skeletons and dwarfs.

GrandmasterWang
04-05-2016, 18:46
That paint job is at least 5 times better than the official Mantic one.

I prefer the Lamassu rip off head rather than the brokenneck dragon head for that model.

I really like that paint job. The official mantic paintjob makes the figurine look like a toy

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Treadhead_1st
04-05-2016, 22:30
One thing to take into account when looking at Mantic models on their website, is that they use really s***** painters... Most of the models are actually quite a bit better looking than they appear on Mantic's because of that.

For example take a look at this picture, and then go look on their website at the elf dragon.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160503/d8902619ed0879309929af040ed81a61.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160503/afdaeddfa759e79f1c0e199be8ab80cf.jpg

I agree that the Mantic painters seem a bit poor, and that technically speaking the painting on that Dragon is very good - the fantastic depth of tone on the face, horns & plates and wings. I still think it is an absolutely abysmal model. The rider looks simply tacked on, it doesn't fit with the model as a whole; the neck angle is extremely odd - it is certainly not helped by the fact the tail, back legs and hips are aligned for a forwards pose whilst the torso is rearing up, the switch in motion is completely off-putting especially as it is practically a 90-degree angle. The hugely fat tail and rear legs don't seem to fit with the model either. Finally, for all the flack the Dracoths got recently, the scales on this model make it look really toy-like, even with the great work the painter has done here (it is even worse on the Mantic shop model, and the Great Winged Halfbreed is quite possibly worse again).

CountUlrich
04-05-2016, 23:42
I'm not trying to sell it as an alternative to someone wanting to pay GW level of prices. Personally I prefer to buy from places like Mierce and Blood Keep and get better than GW for about the same price or just under.

However, for those who are sick of GW level of stupid pricing, they could have 2 of those dragons and a clampack or three of something as well for the price of the Orc flyer just released. And at that price point I think this is just fine.

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CountUlrich
04-05-2016, 23:46
Here's more from the recently released abyssals line ... left to right efreet, archfiend (think demon prince) and abyssal champion.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/4e57a459da7cf61dfc547485b314d7a8.jpg

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Finnigan2004
05-05-2016, 03:52
GW is like a broken down boxing champion at the end of his career. You see some flashes of brilliance from time to time-- just enough to give you a glimmer of hope for a return to glory. Unfortunately, it usually ends with an unseen punch that their reactions can't counter any longer, followed by a savage beating. I don't think any of the mentioned companies are probably overly concerned about new stuff from GW, but I suspect that GW is finally realizing some level of concern for what they are doing. If they want to turn things around, they need to hire quality game designers in a hurry and listen to what they tell them. The AOS debacle should have made them realize that the game that goes with the minis matters. Whether they do realize this or not is impossible to say because their hubris could well prevent them from taking action on it, even if they did.

GrandmasterWang
05-05-2016, 04:03
Here's more from the recently released abyssals line ... left to right efreet, archfiend (think demon prince) and abyssal champion.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/4e57a459da7cf61dfc547485b314d7a8.jpg

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The archfiend is very expensive for what it is imo. I actually like the model (not the head) but from what i have seen it is the same price as the Nature Elemental so more expensive than the GW daemon prince kit which has lots of options

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CountUlrich
05-05-2016, 04:42
The archfiend is very expensive for what it is imo. I actually like the model (not the head) but from what i have seen it is the same price as the Nature Elemental so more expensive than the GW daemon prince kit which has lots of options

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It is $8 more than the demon prince and is not as customizable, no. However it is bigger, and having seen, handled and painted both I feel the Mantic one is a better scullpt and paints up better personally.

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Treadhead_1st
05-05-2016, 08:29
Here's more from the recently released abyssals line ... left to right efreet, archfiend (think demon prince) and abyssal champion.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/4e57a459da7cf61dfc547485b314d7a8.jpg

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I am really not trying to be intentionally combative, but all those models suck IMO (not the painting though!). It may be that Mantic has a particular artistic style that just doesn't gell with me, which won't be helping my perceptions. The far better paint jobs help, as does the change to the angle of the head on the Efreet (it's gone from my worst of the three to the best of the three), but I still don't think they are particularly good. I would rather pay a bit more for something that, IMO, is a better sculpt - and not just GW/FW, but companies like Privateer Press, Wyrd, Corvus Beli etc. Naturally when it comes to KoW most comparisons will be with GW as the game was designed for disgruntled ex-GW fans, especially with the work done since the End Times/Age of Sigmar, but seeing what the smaller companies can produce makes me feel even worse about the Mantic models.

Banville
05-05-2016, 09:22
In my opinion, it is a measure of how far the stock of other companies has risen that on a forum dedicated to all things GW there is a lot of discussion of anything other than GW. Companies like Mantic have gone from a position of "what might happen if they start to supplant GW" to "now that they have begun to supplant GW how might they improve their models."

Again, it's the glaring blindspot in GW's corporate reasoning coming back to haunt them. Good rules drive model sales. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if GW can come up with ways to play rank and flank, properly, in AoS I will buy some models. However, until they do, I'm Mantic all the way. I couldn't care less that a few of the models look a bit derpy. The game is very very good and my next hundred and fifty euro is going straight on an Abyssal army, whose rank and file, IMO, looks far better than GW's daemonic offerings. I love the middle ages, woodcut vibe.

Also, do the maths. One hundred and fifty euro for an entire army. Not just a battalion box of sub-par units but an entire, viable army.

williamsond
05-05-2016, 09:49
Yup the cost to get into the game and the quality rules are very, very attractive when it comes to kings of war. Also if I want to play a round base warband skirmish game with excellent miniatures (by some of the best designers over the last 3 decades), I'll be picking up one of the SAGA series way before AoS.

CountUlrich
05-05-2016, 15:31
I am really not trying to be intentionally combative, but all those models suck IMO (not the painting though!). It may be that Mantic has a particular artistic style that just doesn't gell with me, which won't be helping my perceptions. The far better paint jobs help, as does the change to the angle of the head on the Efreet (it's gone from my worst of the three to the best of the three), but I still don't think they are particularly good. I would rather pay a bit more for something that, IMO, is a better sculpt - and not just GW/FW, but companies like Privateer Press, Wyrd, Corvus Beli etc. Naturally when it comes to KoW most comparisons will be with GW as the game was designed for disgruntled ex-GW fans, especially with the work done since the End Times/Age of Sigmar, but seeing what the smaller companies can produce makes me feel even worse about the Mantic models.
It is an artistic style thing because while I can appreciate the quality of the plastics, there is literally only 3 things GW has produced for its fantasy lines that I would take for free, let alone pay for, since the End Times started.

Virtually everything is blown way out of proportion, often posed silly, incredibly overwrought and fetishized. It's like WoW and anime had a baby who grew up and became a meth fiend. Completely uninteresting to me.

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veterannoob
05-05-2016, 16:28
It is an artistic style thing because while I can appreciate the quality of the plastics, there is literally only 3 things GW has produced for its fantasy lines that I would take for free, let alone pay for, since the End Times started.

Virtually everything is blown way out of proportion, often posed silly, incredibly overwrought and fetishized. It's like WoW and anime had a baby who grew up and became a meth fiend. Completely uninteresting to me.

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HAHA! I don't agree re: GW minis quality but this is funny as hell!:evilgrin:

Treadhead_1st
05-05-2016, 16:48
It is an artistic style thing because while I can appreciate the quality of the plastics, there is literally only 3 things GW has produced for its fantasy lines that I would take for free, let alone pay for, since the End Times started.

Virtually everything is blown way out of proportion, often posed silly, incredibly overwrought and fetishized. It's like WoW and anime had a baby who grew up and became a meth fiend. Completely uninteresting to me.

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If I was being offered them for free, there's quite a lot that I would take - though the AoS Stormcast and the End Times Wrathmongers/whatever-the-hells would certainly be left behind!

As I've constantly pointed out though, I adore products from companies that aren't pumping out WoW/Anime meth-addict hybrids, which have vastly different aesthetic styles - there's even a whole pile of non-gaming miniatures from figurines to busts and across all sorts of genres I'd love to get a hold of, but I can't get behind Mantic at all. I feel it is an issue of the quality of sculpting, given the diverse styles that I do appreciate, but I am certainly not ruling out a fundamental style problem.

CountUlrich
05-05-2016, 17:37
I'm not advocating all Mantic miniatures. Their new abyssals are pretty good though. Some of the nature releases as well. Some of the golems (painted well) are quite decent. The zombies/skellies are competitive with GW's, and the ghouls are better. (Actually the zombies are better too).

My point is simply that they are not as bad as some make them out to be, and they are quite significantly better than the Mantic paint jobs show. And when you can get an entire playable tournament size army for $150 it blows GW prices out of the water.

And for people willing to paay GW prices (like me SOMETIMES) ... you can find companies far better than GW.

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StygianBeach
05-05-2016, 18:09
I'm not advocating all Mantic miniatures. Their new abyssals are pretty good though. Some of the nature releases as well. Some of the golems (painted well) are quite decent. The zombies/skellies are competitive with GW's, and the ghouls are better. (Actually the zombies are better too).

My point is simply that they are not as bad as some make them out to be, and they are quite significantly better than the Mantic paint jobs show. And when you can get an entire playable tournament size army for $150 it blows GW prices out of the water.

And for people willing to paay GW prices (like me SOMETIMES) ... you can find companies far better than GW.

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Sure the Mantic Zombies and Ghouls are better than the GW Zombies, but that has been true for years and the GW Zombie kit is well into its 3rd decade, With the retirement of the old Tomb Kings the Mantic skellies are way behind the GW stuff. The Mantic Ghoul kit is nice but only comes with a dismal 2 sculpts which get repetitive quickly. Similar story with the Mantic orcs.

Mantic and Kings of war would be great in 15mm, but at 28mm is fine in small quantities, I would not an entire Mantic army for example.

I would be interested in knowing what companies offer better HIP plastic minis than GW for a similar price?

2DSick
05-05-2016, 18:21
Sure the Mantic Zombies and Ghouls are better than the GW Zombies, but that has been true for years and the GW Zombie kit is well into its 3rd decade, With the retirement of the old Tomb Kings the Mantic skellies are way behind the GW stuff. The Mantic Ghoul kit is nice but only comes with a dismal 2 sculpts which get repetitive quickly. Similar story with the Mantic orcs.

Mantic and Kings of war would be great in 15mm, but at 28mm is fine in small quantities, I would not an entire Mantic army for example.

I would be interested in knowing what companies offer better HIP plastic minis than GW for a similar price?

I'll add my 2p. Im happy collecting a full mantic goblin army because I like them more than other ranges. They are well proportioned and very sinister looking instead of having massive hands and heads. Fleabags are the bees knees too :-D

StygianBeach
05-05-2016, 18:25
I'll add my 2p. Im happy collecting a full mantic goblin army because I like them more than other ranges. They are well proportioned and very sinister looking instead of having massive hands and heads. Fleabags are the bees knees too :-D

I like the design of the goblins too... but I have seen how the sculpts turned out with similar results to the Basilean men at arms.. Not keen on the Fleabags, I think they are half the inspiration for the new GW Orc Goregruntas.

jozhik
11-05-2016, 05:09
At this point I don't see an issue for, say, Mantic.

One, GW is now firmly in the "premium miniatures" segment of the market. Whether on the Fantasy or on the 40k sides. The other day I threw together a couple of representative 40k tourney lists just to see how much they would cost me. I stopped hitting the plus sign on the calculator after the 500 pound mark. That's about a five to six times inflation from where the price point was when I'd first gotten into the hobby.

So either you eat that, or you buy your one army and nothing else for years and years, or you - by default - look to other miniature manufacturers. [And Ebay, and second-hand, yes, but also those other manufacturers.] Oh, hello, I'm Mantic. Would you like to take a look at my Ogres?

There is likely a pretty big void in the low and middle segments of the market for others to fill, in other words.

Two, after the whole End Times-AoS fiasco - and I call it a fiasco strictly from the standpoint of how the product was rolled out, including marketing (or a lack thereof), market research (or a lack thereof), blindsiding sections of the player base unnecessarily, etc. I am not saying this has caused a steep drop in revenues (no such drop has thus far been in evidence, at least in the financial reports filed to date) - or that AoS is an awful game - just that the roll-out was botched, in my view. But my point is, after all of that, I, as a long-time GW player, has said to myself, self - are there any other Fantasy gaming systems out there which, one, have actual player bases and, two, are not prone to blindsiding their players in GW's incomparable fashion?

In other words, even if AoS 2.0 turns out to be a fantastic game with great tournament support and all that - ok, fine, I'll play AoS 2.0, but I'll always remember that I can downshift to KoW or some equivalent at the drop of a hat. And, to be honest, for the time being KoW and AoS are different games in any case. Meanwhile, we're not talking about AoS 2.0 - we're talking about adding points costs and some other game modes to AoS 1.0, and no-one on the "outside" (other than a few trusted playtesters) should know what this actually entails. Or will know, for months. Rumors of demise, greatly exaggerated, etc. etc.

Also, too, it's not as if having a dual-purpose army is forbidden. Especially if you use GW miniatures, because you don't have to tell the GW shop staff that "this Ogre army is actually my KoW army but I'm using it for AoS tonight".

Spiney Norman
11-05-2016, 09:15
At this point I don't see an issue for, say, Mantic.

One, GW is now firmly in the "premium miniatures" segment of the market. Whether on the Fantasy or on the 40k sides. The other day I threw together a couple of representative 40k tourney lists just to see how much they would cost me. I stopped hitting the plus sign on the calculator after the 500 pound mark. That's about a five to six times inflation from where the price point was when I'd first gotten into the hobby.

This is the crucial thing I think, as much as we gamers would like to declare a game like KoW 'successful' because we see a lot of people playing it, from Mantic's perspective as a company the game is only successful if people are giving them money to play it (i.e. Buying their models to play their game). If hobbiests are playing KoW with GW models that's a win for GW, not Mantic.

Trying to say that AoS becoming more popular will threaten Mantic is a bit like saying 'if more people buy from Harrods that will affect sales in Primark', you're talking about polar opposites of a reasonably large market. At the end of the day people who want better quality models and are willing to pay for them may be playing KoW with GW models, likewise some folks who want to play AoS but have a lower hobby budget might source their models from Mantic in order to do so.

Ronin[XiC]
11-05-2016, 09:25
Na, you're wrong on this one.

Everytime people say "i play KoW and not that shitfest AoS" Mantic won a bit of market share. Everytime people talk about KoW how nice it is, Mantic gets another future customers.

If no one plays AoS but everyone plays it's competitors, GW dies and the rest wins marketshare. Marketshare = money.

Yowzo
11-05-2016, 10:00
;7627392']Na, you're wrong on this one.

Everytime people say "i play KoW and not that shitfest AoS" Mantic won a bit of market share. Everytime people talk about KoW how nice it is, Mantic gets another future customers.

If no one plays AoS but everyone plays it's competitors, GW dies and the rest wins marketshare. Marketshare = money.

It's not a matter of play, but purchases.

Warhammer as a game system was king, but gradually a substantial group of people moved to cheaper alternatives like mantic, wargames factory, historicals, etc. I've seen tons of mantic models used for nothing but warhammer. For book sales that's ok, though.

It doesn't help that your gaming system is top if it doesn't generate new sales, which is apparently the reason why GW is just thrashing the old world and cut ties to the most established fantasy tropes in their new models. Scale creep is also probably part of the equation.

Ronin[XiC]
11-05-2016, 10:08
Again, no.

Market share is all what matters. GW looses its, Mantic and others aquire it.

Market share = customers or at least potential customers. People might not buy Mantic etc. for NOW. But everytime they talk about KoW and others, GW loses customers in the long run.

Zywus
11-05-2016, 10:10
This is the crucial thing I think, as much as we gamers would like to declare a game like KoW 'successful' because we see a lot of people playing it, from Mantic's perspective as a company the game is only successful if people are giving them money to play it (i.e. Buying their models to play their game). If hobbiests are playing KoW with GW models that's a win for GW, not Mantic.
Short term, person A bringing their existing Warhammer collection with them and starts to play KoW doesn't benefit Mantic economically (apart from probably a cheap rulebook). However, long term it's a big boost to simply have people playing and enjoying your game.

First you get mindshare. If people see other playing the game, they're more likely to check it out. Even if person A never buys a single Mantic model, maybe person B who saw him play at the store will. Secondly, even if you initially start to play KoW with your existing Warhammer models, and keep buying from GW, eventually you'll be thinking about starting a new army. Since you're playing KoW chances are you'll at least check out Mantic's offerings before looking at other manufacturers. Some won't find the models to their liking, but some will and more people will pick Mantic models if they're the first thing they consider (even if some ultimately decide to go with other manufacturers).

If GW continue the path their art direction has taken and starts to discontinue more and more of their old sculpts. Playing KoW with GW models will steadily become a less and less viable option. Driving people who dislike the mantic models but still wants to play KoW to manufacturers such as MOM miniatures, Titan Forge, Shieldwolf etc. (which isn't a bad thing at all IMO, as they have some cracking sculpts)

Maccwar
11-05-2016, 10:34
This is the crucial thing I think, as much as we gamers would like to declare a game like KoW 'successful' because we see a lot of people playing it, from Mantic's perspective as a company the game is only successful if people are giving them money to play it (i.e. Buying their models to play their game). If hobbiests are playing KoW with GW models that's a win for GW, not Mantic.

Over on the Mantic forums and on the KoW facebook groups we see a lot of people who get into KoW because they can use their existing GW armies for the game. What may seem surprising is that a lot of these new converts then go on to buy one or more Mantic armies to add to their collection (to be honest, some of them go a bit crazy). That's despite Mantic's policy of allowing miniatures from any company at their official tournaments and events.

On your other point AoS and KoW although both fantasy games scratch a different itch. In an expanding market place there should be plenty of room for both.

captaincortez
12-05-2016, 18:01
Folks are still playing, supporting, and having fun with Warhammer Fantasy Battles. Anyone who didn't abandon Warhammer as a hobby should join up at the EEFL forum.

eefl.freeforums.net

Ayin
12-05-2016, 18:08
All those people saying GW won't produce good rules need to remember that they have developed the new additions alongside some of the prominent players in the country. See the Bad Dice post in this forum.

When a company doesn't have employees with the relevant skills or necessary level of skill, bringing in outside contractors is the solution more often than not, which seems to be exactly what happened here. A company bungled a product release and badly misjudged the wants of a large percentage of their supposedly target market (which they clearly haven't properly defined), and is attempting to recover by reaching out to independent experts from those markets to fix their already launched product. Now if only they'd similarly reach out and get ahold of someone outside of their company who is capable of handling their marketing.

Katastrophe
12-05-2016, 20:53
All those people saying GW won't produce good rules need to remember that they have developed the new additions alongside some of the prominent players in the country. See the Bad Dice post in this forum.

This is exactly how BAD rumors and information gets decimated. There was nothing stated by either Bad Dice or the Vloggers that even suggested they were part of the rules development. What they did state was that they were brought in to do some playtesting and that they offered some ideas on improvement. That is a far cry from "developed the new additions alongside". In fact, from the timing, they were play testing the finished and completed product and we don't know whether there was any modification based on the outside observations. Even worse, the play tests were very limited in time (looked like a weekend - but I suppose it could have been longer), and they spent much of that time giggling with the developers not trying to "stress test" the system.

Ayin
12-05-2016, 21:41
I'll add my 2p. Im happy collecting a full mantic goblin army because I like them more than other ranges. They are well proportioned and very sinister looking instead of having massive hands and heads. Fleabags are the bees knees too :-D

Mantic Goblins are golden, but I also really like their Orcs. Their Abyssal Dwarves are much better than the paintscheme would indicate as well, and having recently seen a well made and painted Ogre army, that's a good line as well.

sephiroth87
12-05-2016, 22:17
I'm another one who originally started kow by playing my warhammer armies. I'm planning on buying a kow megaforce in the next two weeks. There's no dispute for me about whether gw is better quality, but when I can buy a new reasonably nice whole army at 150 dollars (as opposed to the 700-900 I'd have to spend on gw I'm happy. I also feel really good about supporting a company that wants me as a customer.

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Dosiere
12-05-2016, 23:26
This is the crucial thing I think, as much as we gamers would like to declare a game like KoW 'successful' because we see a lot of people playing it, from Mantic's perspective as a company the game is only successful if people are giving them money to play it (i.e. Buying their models to play their game). If hobbiests are playing KoW with GW models that's a win for GW, not Mantic.

Trying to say that AoS becoming more popular will threaten Mantic is a bit like saying 'if more people buy from Harrods that will affect sales in Primark', you're talking about polar opposites of a reasonably large market. At the end of the day people who want better quality models and are willing to pay for them may be playing KoW with GW models, likewise some folks who want to play AoS but have a lower hobby budget might source their models from Mantic in order to do so.

I mostly agree, although I'd bet Mantic would rather me play KoW with my GW minis than not at all. I have yet to buy many minis from Mantic, though I've bought all their books as I enjoy the game. I really enjoy the hobby side of the game, and I'm of the opinion that I'd rather have one army that I adore the look of than three that I don't even if that means I have a third of the minis I could otherwise have for the same price. Still, there is real value in people playing and enjoying your game, as they become ambassadors for said game and create future growth potential.

WarpWhisperer
13-05-2016, 00:00
Not sure if its relevant at all to this thread but i thought i would post it anyway because it could be interesting for conversation. I just took a poll for minwargaming
Question 1 was what game are you most interested in atm
Question 2 was what game do you want Mini war gaming to start making videos for.
Not only did 9th age beat AOS in the first question 2360 votes to 2014 votes, The 9th age was the number one voted option for wanting videos of with 14.2% of the vote.

I was interested in the results of this poll, as I did not realise that 9th Age was as popular as the poll suggested.

So I checked out the 9th Age Forum...and found a thread detailing attempts to 'influence' the results: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?thread/11589-miniwargaming-yt-channel-poll-for-new-game-coverage/&pageNo=1.

Which has coloured my view a little.

Skargit Crookfang
13-05-2016, 00:22
I was interested in the results of this poll, as I did not realise that 9th Age was as popular as the poll suggested.

So I checked out the 9th Age Forum...and found a thread detailing attempts to 'influence' the results: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?thread/11589-miniwargaming-yt-channel-poll-for-new-game-coverage/&pageNo=1.

Which has coloured my view a little.

That also means that 9th Age has the ability to galvanize the base pretty easily- don't know if that should alter ones view in the negative. It just means that the supporters and players actively support their game.

Arrahed
13-05-2016, 08:51
I was interested in the results of this poll, as I did not realise that 9th Age was as popular as the poll suggested.

So I checked out the 9th Age Forum...and found a thread detailing attempts to 'influence' the results: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?thread/11589-miniwargaming-yt-channel-poll-for-new-game-coverage/&pageNo=1.

Which has coloured my view a little.
What do you mean by 'influence'? Encouraging people to vote? I suppose that is what the poll is for.
If you are referring to someone stating that you could delete your browser cache to vote again, there is also a miniwargamer in that thread clarifying that they will remove duplicates. (Its particularly easy in that case because they only have to check for duplicated IP addresses. I very much doubt anyone would go through more trouble trying to manipulate a poll like that.)
And to be fair, the hint to delete the cache was suggested as way to see the poll results after having voted already. Not as a way to vote multiple times.

jtrowell
13-05-2016, 09:43
Meanwhile the vote was to my knownledge not even mentionned once in any of the KoW forums that i frequent, so yeah this can have some impact to who voted in the end.

Katastrophe
13-05-2016, 13:38
I was interested in the results of this poll, as I did not realise that 9th Age was as popular as the poll suggested.

So I checked out the 9th Age Forum...and found a thread detailing attempts to 'influence' the results: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?thread/11589-miniwargaming-yt-channel-poll-for-new-game-coverage/&pageNo=1.

Which has coloured my view a little.

Irrespective of that, the fact that 9th got 2000 votes is damned impressive for a work in progress driven by a community that left a game previously run by the largest fantasy Warhammer producer.

A get the word out and let's grow our community campaign that might work is great and for an actual game that's FREE. I'd say that's impressive.

Asmodios
13-05-2016, 14:16
I was interested in the results of this poll, as I did not realise that 9th Age was as popular as the poll suggested.

So I checked out the 9th Age Forum...and found a thread detailing attempts to 'influence' the results: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?thread/11589-miniwargaming-yt-channel-poll-for-new-game-coverage/&pageNo=1.

Which has coloured my view a little.
I actually came across the poll I posted on our kings of war Texas page. I don't think it's uncommon for people to start threads to try to influence polls.

Yowzo
13-05-2016, 18:46
I actually came across the poll I posted on our kings of war Texas page. I don't think it's uncommon for people to start threads to try to influence polls.

I saw it on our KoW facebook group as well.