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View Full Version : AOS finally going to realise its potential and become GW flagship game?



dragonelf
06-05-2016, 09:47
There are a lot of positive things happening around AOS at the moment. My question is whether it is now finally ready to topple 40k as the flagship GW game?

I will make the case for this happening:

The new Generals Handbook is definitely going to rekindle interest. You could argue that the main things holding the game back are the setting and aspects of the rules. If they sort out the rules, specifically army balance then this means that strangers can arrange games with each other and therefore the game can flourish on the ground.

Secondly, the new summer campaign is likely to engage people into the new setting and most importantly invest people in the world of AOS.

Thirdly, the models coming out for AOS are far superior to those coming out for 40k.

Finally, and most importantly, 40k is starting to feel like a bloated game that GW is trying to stuff more into. It is becoming a chore of hoop jumping writing an army list, and the power gaming formation free for all means that there game balance is losing out. AOS might feel like a breath of fresh air with its innovative simple ruleset and now rules for balanced play.

thoughts?

Tyranno1
06-05-2016, 09:57
My thoughts are that you are in the wrong section.

Rogue Star
06-05-2016, 10:29
My question is whether it is now finally ready to topple 40k as the flagship GW game?

... adorable. :o

veterannoob
06-05-2016, 10:36
There are a lot of positive things happening around AOS at the moment. My question is whether it is now finally ready to topple 40k as the flagship GW game?

I will make the case for this happening:

The new Generals Handbook is definitely going to rekindle interest. You could argue that the main things holding the game back are the setting and aspects of the rules. If they sort out the rules, specifically army balance then this means that strangers can arrange games with each other and therefore the game can flourish on the ground.

Secondly, the new summer campaign is likely to engage people into the new setting and most importantly invest people in the world of AOS.

Thirdly, the models coming out for AOS are far superior to those coming out for 40k.

Finally, and most importantly, 40k is starting to feel like a bloated game that GW is trying to stuff more into. It is becoming a chore of hoop jumping writing an army list, and the power gaming formation free for all means that there game balance is losing out. AOS might feel like a breath of fresh air with its innovative simple ruleset and now rules for balanced play.

thoughts?

I'm loving it and having more fun playing it with great people even more than I did with 8th. Not sure I see it toppling 40K (though 30K might) but we'll see. But I applaud you for starting a discussion here and wish you luck with this one.:rolleyes: You know what's coming...

Vazalaar
06-05-2016, 10:44
Euh?

I think if GW manages to have more people playing AoS and buying AoS mini's than people play/bought WHFB, than they can be very happy... . AoS is still doing very badly.

Alaska
06-05-2016, 11:26
My thoughts are that you are in the wrong section.
^^^^^^^^^^

Sete
06-05-2016, 11:31
Lol how brave of you to do this thread on warseer.
Brace yourself for how bad is AoS doing with no kind of evidence, and how GW will bankrupt and be bought next couple of years.
And it only sells for 40k conversions.
And an incessant whining of how GW killed WHFB.
I could go on and on.
But how brave of you. ;)

Daigar
06-05-2016, 11:54
Is it April 1st already? Feels like the last one was not too long ago...

tmod
06-05-2016, 12:01
I like the optimism, though the question could as well be something like this: "When will GW be a more valuable brand than Apple?". Even back when WhFB was still considered a huge success it was completely dwarfed by 40k globally. That said, I think AoS could possibly hope to overtake 30k, and that would be rather impressive. If AoS managed to sell more than fantasy used to do pre End Times I'd be completely amazed, but I do think GW seems to be starting down the right path if they are to have any chance of ever succeeding in this.

Personally though, I think it's too little too late. GW has squandered away its position as the best miniature company, and have long since been overtaken by others when it comes to game design. I fear they don't have the means to strike back...



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Ben
06-05-2016, 12:12
Fantasy did used to be bigger than 40k, and early GW was built on the back of Warhammer Fantasy and Fantasy was the flagship game.

This changed during 40k 2nd edition, which was the first kid friendly version of 40k with things like codexes and a reasonable number of plastic kits.

I think the OP is right about 40k being a bloated mess. Hopefully the new edition coming this year will deal with some of the bloat, though GW are married to formations.

I think the OP is wrong about AoS becoming the new flagship game. If there is a summer of AoS like last year where stores were reporting their lowest GW sales in the 21st century then AoS will be in serious trouble.

For AoS to be the flagship game 40k would have to totally collapse and 30k would have to disappear. AoS doesn't have the player base to be the flagship game.

We will see how the first relaunch goes. There will be a second relaunch within a year, because I don't think the first relaunch will be enough, but it will take GW that long to do something serious about the rules.

Crimson Reaver
06-05-2016, 12:56
I can't argue with the points you've raised, given the fact that I've been quite impressed with a few of the new things coming out for AoS model-wise, although that's always a matter of taste.

Problem is that 40K is starting from a much higher position. AoS lost a lot of potential support right out the gate when players bolted to other games, so you've got a low install base (to borrow an IT term) whereas most of us have some Space Marines squirrelled away somewhere :D

If the new changes can help it gain some momentum, and 40K continues stumbling, of course it can close the gap, but I'm not sure in the short-medium term it can overhaul 40K, unless something else alters substantially.

Dr.Zahnfleisch
06-05-2016, 12:56
I dont think AoS has anywher near the draw that 40k has, and I'm not even talking about the game, just the IP in general. Space Marines are an established franchise, while AoS seems to be more of an experiment to salvage WHFB, and a rather unsuccessful one at that, if our insiders are to be believed.

Even if GW manage to perform a u-turn with AoS and make it a successful franchise, I can still not see it replace 40k - not even in the long run. That being said, I'm excited to see where they will take AoS and I have to admit that they seem to be on the right track in many ways. The latest Orruk realease was not terrible and the re-introduction of points might draw in some disgruntled verterans after all.

Icarus81
06-05-2016, 13:09
Sci-fi will likely always be more popular than fantasy - see Star Wars vs LotR. Even if it doesn't become flagship any appreciable gain for AoS would certainly be a plus.

Banville
06-05-2016, 13:13
Sci-fi will likely always be more popular than fantasy - see Star Wars vs LotR. Even if it doesn't become flagship any appreciable gain for AoS would certainly be a plus.

I presume you're aware of the absurdity of that comment?

Have you any idea how many books LotR has sold?

Malagor
06-05-2016, 13:22
First wrong section
And two:

Sci-fi will likely always be more popular than fantasy - see Star Wars vs LotR. Even if it doesn't become flagship any appreciable gain for AoS would certainly be a plus.
LoTR when first came out was GW's biggest selling game, 40k wasn't even close to that level of popularity or sales figures.

veterannoob
06-05-2016, 13:23
Sci-fi will likely always be more popular than fantasy - see Star Wars vs LotR. Even if it doesn't become flagship any appreciable gain for AoS would certainly be a plus.
I believe that's been true overall in the US for some time now, though shifting away from that recently. But in Europe it appears to be reversed.

Banville
06-05-2016, 13:31
Actually, I may have been a bit harsh earlier. Science Fiction has always sold more movies. Fantasy has always sold more books. I don't know why. Maybe the Mise en Scene for sci fi is more visually appealing than "random forest/mountainscape #7".

Spiney Norman
06-05-2016, 13:47
This should be in warhammer General I think. I say this as a big fan of AoS, but suggesting AoS could, any time soon, feasibly replace 40k as GW's main breadwinner is so drastically optimistic as to possibly be called delusional.

I do think that AoS is now on the way up, but like Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party, it still has a very long way to go.


First wrong section
And two:

LoTR when first came out was GW's biggest selling game, 40k wasn't even close to that level of popularity or sales figures.

There's a very good reason for that, as good as the world setting of wfb was it pales into absurdity compared to Tolkien's masterpiece, it was also launched on the back of one of the best movie trilogies in decades. If GW had launched a Star Wars battle game with miniatures of comparable quality to their 40k range at a competitive price (which was another of Lotr's major strengths when it was selling) I have no doubt it would outsell 40k in fairly short order.

Icarus81
06-05-2016, 14:03
Actually, I may have been a bit harsh earlier. Science Fiction has always sold more movies. Fantasy has always sold more books. I don't know why. Maybe the Mise en Scene for sci fi is more visually appealing than "random forest/mountainscape #7".

That's ok - I didn't articulate it well.

EmperorNorton
06-05-2016, 14:05
I presume you're aware of the absurdity of that comment?

Have you any idea how many books LotR has sold?

Not to mention that Star Wars has very little to do with science fiction. It's fantasy in space.

Banville
06-05-2016, 14:08
Not to mention that Star Wars has very little to do with science fiction. It's fantasy in space.

So is 99% of all science fiction.

And fantasy is just a re-working of various European stories and legends.

I think Stephen King said that there were only about five actual stories out there and people just reconstitute them over and over in slightly different ways.

What's your point?

Rogue Star
06-05-2016, 14:41
Not to mention that Star Wars has very little to do with science fiction. It's fantasy in space.

So is 40K.

KieranHayns
06-05-2016, 15:05
Is it ready to topple 40k? no chance.

Will it someday? Maybe.

The development of AOS cannot be compared to WHFB or 40k as its a different world now. With more competition both internal and external.

AOS recently took a positive step forward. If GW has enough sense to keep making those steps then who knows what AOS might look like down the line.

I am a Fantasy/AOS fan and have never had much interest in 40k. (To much is going on. But nothings actually happening). Might change my mind if they did something profound with it. Like introduce the Outsider or finish the damn Heresy books!

shinros
06-05-2016, 15:16
Well GW just endorsed the modding of total war warhammer which is unheard of this new CEO is something else. If tom was still in charge that would of been a flat no.

Spiney Norman
06-05-2016, 15:52
Not to mention that Star Wars has very little to do with science fiction. It's fantasy in space.

That is true, there is virtually no science in Star Wars, the point is space is cool and space sells stuff, traditional fantasy has a more geeky perception which a space setting somehow gets around.

Skargit Crookfang
06-05-2016, 15:59
To the OP- you are a brave, brave soul... especially after the Should T9A and KoW be worried thread you started...

As for Flagship product... I see your argument, but little quantification of it vis a vis sales figures, real "push", etc. This kind of feels like wishful thinking. But, hey, keep the hope alive, my friend! I hope it all turns positive for you.

Buddy Bear
06-05-2016, 16:05
AOS will never be a successful game, much less ever topple 40k from its perch as GW's #1 game. Frankly, AOS will be fortunate if it survives past 2017. I expect it'll be cancelled before 2018 rolls around.

StygianBeach
06-05-2016, 16:09
I doubt any wargame out there could topple 40K, probably not even a combination of the top 5 competing systems. Maybe a starwars based game could eventually, but only if it was pre-painted.

AoS is such a short jump from both Saga and Frostgrave, all GW need to do is give a team 6 months and churn out their own AoS versions of these games and AoS is set to take a close second to 40K.

Icarus81
06-05-2016, 16:14
AOS will never be a successful game, much less ever topple 40k from its perch as GW's #1 game. Frankly, AOS will be fortunate if it survives past 2017. I expect it'll be cancelled before 2018 rolls around.

!RemindMe in 2 years

lybban
06-05-2016, 16:21
How is this thread still open?


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rmeister0
06-05-2016, 16:36
I don't think that AoS will surpass 40K in either revenue or in player base. I'm sure there will be areas where people observe everyone playing AoS and nobody playing 40K, but 40K has a long history, an established player base, and inertia going for it.

There is no question that 40K is a huge mess and has problems of its own. But that doesn't seem to have damaged sales to the extend that WHFB sales tanked, and in either event is a more distinctive setting and product than AoS is.

If it were to happen, I would guess it's more due to 40K falling apart than with AoS becoming superior either in rules, setting or asthetics.

I would also point out that of all the board games to come out in the last 12 months, all were based on the 40K setting and none were based on AoS.

Folomo
06-05-2016, 16:36
Why should it be closed?
it is on the wrong forum, but AFAIK that error is nothing to be closed for.

smaxx
06-05-2016, 17:22
It's definitely GW's Flahship, showing exactly what the company is capable of doing now. It is a perfect showcase of GW's rule and background development nowadays. And if AoS ever is the GWs best selling game, it only means that they've done the sigmar for 40k also, and the last customer bought a box of sigmarines before the last hobby center closed it's lights...

Rogue Star
06-05-2016, 17:24
I would also point out that of all the board games to come out in the last 12 months, all were based on the 40K setting and none were based on AoS.

Next weekend will be very interesting then. ;)

dragonelf
06-05-2016, 17:33
First of all apologies for posting in the wrong forum. But I think the replies in this thread show that people can have a civil discussion about AOS which is very welcome. I was just posing the question to get the thoughts of the community and I think it's been discussed in a sensible way. I think the future of AOS looks at the very least more interesting than a few months ago.

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TheKingInYellow
06-05-2016, 17:41
If they wanted a Fantasy game that could topple 40k they should be negotiating for the rights to produce a Game of Thrones tabletop game. That's about the biggest general market penetration for a fantasy property that I can think of since LotR.

Skargit Crookfang
06-05-2016, 17:50
First of all apologies for posting in the wrong forum. But I think the replies in this thread show that people can have a civil discussion about AOS which is very welcome. I was just posing the question to get the thoughts of the community and I think it's been discussed in a sensible way. I think the future of AOS looks at the very least more interesting than a few months ago.

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Key word being interesting... "May you live in interesting times". What an awful thing to wish on someone ;).

It will, nevertheless, be interesting to see if sales pick up and how this relates to a new edition of 40k. Also, with many local GWs now welcoming in 9th and being fine with 8th and 8.5... there may be a shift in strategy. We shall see!

Spiney Norman
06-05-2016, 17:53
If they wanted a Fantasy game that could topple 40k they should be negotiating for the rights to produce a Game of Thrones tabletop game. That's about the biggest general market penetration for a fantasy property that I can think of since LotR.

Agreed, except they should've been negotiating for the rights to it at least five years ago, if they started now, by the time they got to production the ship will definitely have sailed.

Buddy Bear
06-05-2016, 18:56
I doubt any wargame out there could topple 40K, probably not even a combination of the top 5 competing systems. Maybe a starwars based game could eventually, but only if it was pre-painted.

You've got me. I have no idea if you're being serious or sarcastic, particularly given that 40k was recently toppled from the top spot as the #1 miniature game on the market by X-Wing.


AoS is such a short jump from both Saga and Frostgrave, all GW need to do is give a team 6 months and churn out their own AoS versions of these games and AoS is set to take a close second to 40K.

Ok, definitely sarcasm. :D

quantumcollider
06-05-2016, 19:32
Though I wish AoS the best and hope that many gamers have many fun games with it, and that GW makes lots of profit from the system, I highly doubt I will ever start with AoS, even if they improve it and that I used to prefer WHFB over WH40k.

The reason is simple: I do not like the setting. The Old World of WHFB was a place where normal humans had a sensible place, and some of my favourite units were my Bretonnian peasants (thematically speaking). But AoS is about gods, monsters and magical superhumans, like it is some sort of Ragnarok. No place for simple folk trying to survive in a hostile world.

Dark Elf
06-05-2016, 20:12
There are a lot of positive things happening around AOS at the moment. My question is whether it is now finally ready to topple 40k as the flagship GW game?

As long as 8th edition and 9th age exist and have a following greater or equal to AoS, they'll just be the reminder of how small, insignificant and uninteresting AoS is. If AoS can't overtake a "dead" game, how can it possibly think to tackle the flagship?

As far as AoS models go it's hot'n'cold kind of situation. Some models are so beautiful (new orcs are amazing), some are hopeless (sigmarines and naked dwarves).

Icarus81
06-05-2016, 20:19
As long as 8th edition and 9th age exist and have a following greater or equal to AoS, they'll just be the reminder of how small, insignificant and uninteresting AoS is. If AoS can't overtake a "dead" game, how can it possibly think to tackle the flagship?

As far as AoS models go it's hot'n'cold kind of situation. Some models are so beautiful (new orcs are amazing), some are hopeless (sigmarines and naked dwarves).

Not necessarily. Someone who really wants ranked battles would understandably not make the switch to AoS. 8th and 9th will be around for a good while.

veterannoob
06-05-2016, 20:46
Though I wish AoS the best and hope that many gamers have many fun games with it, and that GW makes lots of profit from the system, I highly doubt I will ever start with AoS, even if they improve it and that I used to prefer WHFB over WH40k.

The reason is simple: I do not like the setting. The Old World of WHFB was a place where normal humans had a sensible place, and some of my favourite units were my Bretonnian peasants (thematically speaking). But AoS is about gods, monsters and magical superhumans, like it is some sort of Ragnarok. No place for simple folk trying to survive in a hostile world.

We'll see how the fluff develops over the next year. There is a less visible focus on the people living in the it-sucks-to-be-you world but I get what you're saying and agree. Battles are all fine and dandy but I also hope they flesh things out to help,if nothing else, better immersion during game play but also hobby time--painting, writing quick fluff for your Army, or even preparing it for an event, for those who choose to. David A, Guy Haley and Josh Reynolds I think have done excellent in this regard and proves hopefully moving forward. While I bought and haven't read it yet, I hear Gav's book Warbeast provides some of this world building as well.

Talagan
06-05-2016, 20:47
Hi,

I don't think AoS is ready to be GW's game number 1. But, in my opinion, 40k is now at the end of his actual state: Most of the stuff is out (exept some stuff like aspect warriors), there are too many dataslates, suplements, campaigns... And the game seems too complicate for new players. A new version with drastical changes, in a couple of years or so, would give fresh air to the game, coupled with fluff evolution (like half of the Imperium destroyed by Tyranids/ chaos) and some unexplored races like Exodites.

So, something similar like EoT and AoS but not even in the same proportions. 40k is selling well, not like WHFB was. We'll see, but I guess GW will wait, seeing how AoS evolves before doing something similar for 40k. (Or maybe they'll just bring out 30k as a new game along with actual 40k game).

sephiroth87
06-05-2016, 21:30
If they just keep installing more giant gold statues of sigmarines outside their offices, maybe it'll happen. Because as they've publicly stated, sigmarines in new retributor gold spray paint is better than anything they did before. There are no American tanks in Baghdad! None!

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Scribe of Khorne
06-05-2016, 21:45
I do not realistically see how AoS could topple 40K. 30K has a better chance than AoS does of replacing 40K, but Dawn of War III will settle the issue.

TheGreatestGood
06-05-2016, 22:00
As someone with over 20 years of background in the hobby, I've never felt more distant now from 40k than I ever had. Warhammer was always my more preferred setting anyway. Initially I thought the aos fluff was terrible, but it has fleshed out and got more interesting and seems 'live' which I like.
I think aos is too far behind to be in the running to take over from 40k, but it's going the right way and it doesn't deserve to fail just because people preferredthe old warhammer. I did/do prefer the old ways, but I'm open to the change more and more with points inclusion, more balance a massive campaign etc.
40k is getting fat and middle aged. It's too big and I've lost touch with all the changes, inclusions and 'buy to win dataslates'. I feel it needs a soft reset of the game mechanics as the models and fluff are still strong.

veterannoob
06-05-2016, 22:55
As someone with over 20 years of background in the hobby, I've never felt more distant now from 40k than I ever had. Warhammer was always my more preferred setting anyway. Initially I thought the aos fluff was terrible, but it has fleshed out and got more interesting and seems 'live' which I like.
I think aos is too far behind to be in the running to take over from 40k, but it's going the right way and it doesn't deserve to fail just because people preferredthe old warhammer. I did/do prefer the old ways, but I'm open to the change more and more with points inclusion, more balance a massive campaign etc.
40k is getting fat and middle aged. It's too big and I've lost touch with all the changes, inclusions and 'buy to win dataslates'. I feel it needs a soft reset of the game mechanics as the models and fluff are still strong.
heh maybe 40K needs to embrace the midlife crisis and just buy a Corvette already;). But seriously, good post.

tmod
06-05-2016, 23:19
Fantasy did used to be bigger than 40k, and early GW was built on the back of Warhammer Fantasy and Fantasy was the flagship game.

This changed during 40k 2nd edition, which was the first kid friendly version of 40k with things like codexes and a reasonable number of plastic kits.


This is true of course, with Fantasy being older than 40k there must have been a time when 40k was the little brother. But the first time I read reports about Space Marines outselling Fantasy was almost 20 years ago...


I doubt any wargame out there could topple 40K, probably not even a combination of the top 5 competing systems. Maybe a starwars based game could eventually, but only if it was pre-painted.


The current top dog is called x-wing, and I believe your description fits. Toppled 40k this winter...


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Scribe of Khorne
06-05-2016, 23:41
Oh and yes, 40K is in need of a reboot by now. Consolidation of rules and a proper 8th edition wouldnt be a bad thing at all.

Valaraukar
07-05-2016, 00:54
This is true of course, with Fantasy being older than 40k there must have been a time when 40k was the little brother. But the first time I read reports about Space Marines outselling Fantasy was almost 20 years ago...



The current top dog is called x-wing, and I believe your description fits. Toppled 40k this winter...


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And your source for that is? I hope not the US independent only survey which excludes GW stores, their website etc. Which don't exist in the same way for these other systems and excludes the rest of the world.

Tichey
07-05-2016, 05:11
I doubt AoS will topple 40k any time soon, however, another couple years of 40k going the way it has and if AoS continues to change to meet expectations and a swap could well happen.

Scribe of Khorne
07-05-2016, 05:36
I doubt AoS will topple 40k any time soon, however, another couple years of 40k going the way it has and if AoS continues to change to meet expectations and a swap could well happen.

I really think 1 of 2 things happens first.

1. GW applies the same modern principles in business running as they have been to both lines. Net impact - 0.
2. 40K crashes to a point where AoS leap frogs it. Net Impact - GW goes under.

Teurastaja
07-05-2016, 09:48
Pure fantasy. Maybe if GW destroys 40k like it destroyed WFB. AoS isn't doing well at all. It would be even worse without WFB, 9th Age and KoW players buying stuff.

Buddy Bear
07-05-2016, 10:01
I really wonder how much Warhammer Fantasy buyers trying to complete their collections, 9th Age players, and Kings of War players account for AOS's sales. It'd be interesting if there was a way to know for sure. I certainly would've started buying Bretonnia to play Equitaine for 9th Age if I could have, but sadly GW put them up on Last Chance to Buy and I'm out of luck. My guess is that those three groups, together, probably account for more sales than purely AOS customers alone.

Kevin Mack
07-05-2016, 10:19
Also isent Aos Technically going to be in direct competition with total war warhammer?

doomspittle
07-05-2016, 10:20
Who cares about 40k, it's x wing it needs to topple now.Everyone in my group has moved on apart from me, 40k is a mess.

Valaraukar
07-05-2016, 10:32
I'd argue x-wings going the same way, way too many expansions to keep track of now, everyone has more minis than they need and they keep trying to sell us existing minis in new ways just to get a card or two but images of them are available online. Doesn't sound very sustainable.

Spiney Norman
07-05-2016, 10:36
Also isent Aos Technically going to be in direct competition with total war warhammer?

Why would it, did AoS become a video game when I wasn't looking?
That's not to say that tabletop gaming and video games are mutually exclusive markets but I've never heard someone say 'I'm going to give up tabletop gaming so I can play video games instead', the overwhelming majority of people I know will do both.

Teurastaja
07-05-2016, 11:20
My guess is that those three groups, together, probably account for more sales than purely AOS customers alone.

I think so too. I recently started collecting Sylvan Elves for 9th Age ('perfect' timing, as always -_-). It unfortunately still counts as AoS sales but I can't force myself to buy Mantic's elves.

tmod
07-05-2016, 12:28
And your source for that is? I hope not the US independent only survey which excludes GW stores, their website etc. Which don't exist in the same way for these other systems and excludes the rest of the world.

Fair enough, we don't actually know whether 40k outsells x-wing or not, and we're likely to either unless 40k keepsdropping on the list. Still, x-wing is definitely top dog amongst independents in one of the three major markets (the other two being UK and mainland Europe). Unthinkable just a year ago, and strong indication that the doom mongers have been onto something.

At any rate it means that it's laughable to consider 40k/GW an untouchable industry giant that will always be top dog no matter what. Anything can change, and GW/40k/AoS might still come back big time, but they're not the giant among ants anymore...

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Valaraukar
07-05-2016, 12:34
Certainly true and IMO competition can only be a good thing. Look at the recent actions of GW, would those changes have happened without it? I doubt it. As for x-wing itself I just wonder what longevity it'll have, look at LoTR, huge for a while but where is it now? Also the trouble of constantly creating new stuff for people to buy which has been hurting 40k to some extent already appears to be happening with x-wing

Immortus
07-05-2016, 12:39
Why would it, did AoS become a video game when I wasn't looking?
That's not to say that tabletop gaming and video games are mutually exclusive markets but I've never heard someone say 'I'm going to give up tabletop gaming so I can play video games instead', the overwhelming majority of people I know will do both.

Haven't brought anything gw other than vermintide since AoS. I'm getting tw:wh, was a wfb player. Still am. Except now 50 gets me 6armies. Instead of 1 or 3 units.
The 's I saved since aos dropped will likely buy a new PC. Instead of the wfb lizardmen army I was drooling over.

I'm not giving up ttg. But atm my current army will do until there's something worth my money. Till then AMD and nvidia got new GPUs coming and total war is set to release 3 wfb games.

All money gw isn't getting on paint and miniatures

StygianBeach
07-05-2016, 13:03
At any rate it means that it's laughable to consider 40k/GW an untouchable industry giant that will always be top dog no matter what. Anything can change, and GW/40k/AoS might still come back big time, but they're not the giant among ants anymore...


Kinda, but it is not really fair to compare something to Star Wars and then generalise it onto everything non-Star Wars. Star Wars was sold for 4 Billion afterall.

ToLongDidntRead
07-05-2016, 13:59
Hahahhahahaha. I'm not quite sure if the OP is trolling or delusional, but I'm going to go with trolling. I'm honestly surprised this thread wasn't locked on sight.

TheGreatestGood
07-05-2016, 14:07
The OP was probably just trying to start a debate, and to be fair has achieved one. That's possibly why the thread wasn't locked on site. Aos may be a mess but at least efforts are being made to tidy it up. I don't think the same can be said for 40k yet.

Kahadras
07-05-2016, 14:47
Aos may be a mess but at least efforts are being made to tidy it up. I don't think the same can be said for 40k yet.

True. There's no reason why AoS shouldn't become GW's flagship game and I'm not really sure what 'potential' we're talking about here. The OP would probably have been better off saying 'when GW fixes AoS will it become GW's flagship game?' To which the answer is 'it depends if they can overcome the massive negative reaction there was when the game first dropped'.

Kahadras
07-05-2016, 14:50
If Silver Tower takes off you might eat your words.

....and if it doesn't take off?

I'm not saying that it won't mind you. I really liked Warhammer Quest back in the day and I'm hoping that Silver Tower will be another GW box set that I want to own.

Niall78
07-05-2016, 17:48
Why would it, did AoS become a video game when I wasn't looking?
That's not to say that tabletop gaming and video games are mutually exclusive markets but I've never heard someone say 'I'm going to give up tabletop gaming so I can play video games instead', the overwhelming majority of people I know will do both.

Poster Hello Kitty of these parts said exactly that with one of his last posts. He sold his entire collection and bought a gaming PC.

Scribe of Khorne
07-05-2016, 18:02
Poster Hello Kitty of these parts said exactly that with one of his last posts. He sold his entire collection and bought a gaming PC.

Wish I had been around for that meltdown.

When games or companies do all they can to alienate players, yes people give up on them and put that money into something else. PC gaming is getting a huge infusion this month so I wouldnt be shocked (I am getting one after...8 or so years?).

Tyranno1
07-05-2016, 18:22
The OP was probably just trying to start a debate, and to be fair has achieved one. That's possibly why the thread wasn't locked on site. Aos may be a mess but at least efforts are being made to tidy it up. I don't think the same can be said for 40k yet.

Actually I am pretty sure the mods have either not seen this thread or not cared. As it is in entirely the wrong part of the forum.

TheGreatestGood
07-05-2016, 18:25
That I can agree with. It is in the wrong part of the forums.

Geep
07-05-2016, 19:04
From the OP:

Finally, and most importantly, 40k is starting to feel like a bloated game that GW is trying to stuff more into. It is becoming a chore of hoop jumping writing an army list, and the power gaming formation free for all means that there game balance is losing out.

I fully agree that 40k is a bloated mess- but isn't AoS very clearly heading down this exact same path? Every unit needing its own reference sheet is not convenient. Scenarios are scattered throughout many big and expensive books. Formations and similar things exist to throw an extra spanner in the army-making works. Balance is currently non-existent (no better than any other game, as you can always choose to cancel a game against a jerk opponent), and there's no guarantee that a book which suddenly adds points will do this with any competency at all.
Right now the main thing saving AoS from the same hellish pit are the small model count games- but that also won't last. In the latter editions of Fantasy and 40k rule changes forced miniatures per game to be ramped up quickly, to help drive sales- usually at the detriment of game play. Why would anyone expect AoS to avoid this same fate very soon? I strongly doubt GW has learnt the lesson here- they will do anything they can to drive model sales as fast as possible.

Inquisitor Gideon
07-05-2016, 19:28
Hahahhahahaha. I'm not quite sure if the OP is trolling or delusional, but I'm going to go with trolling. I'm honestly surprised this thread wasn't locked on sight.

Thank you for that incredibly useless contribution. But on topic, will it take over 40k? not in the near or possibly even far future. But i do see it staying. It's building and getting steam slowly. The big question is how the points addition pulls people in. If the more competetive players take too it. I'm genuinely curious to see in about six months time. Especially if the tournament circuit kicks back off with these new rules. That could see a massive influx if people come in.

Rogue Star
07-05-2016, 19:41
Every unit needing its own reference sheet is not convenient.

I find the warscrolls much easier to use than the current 40K format where you have a page of stats, slot allotment, points and options. Everything I need concerning the unit is on the 'scroll, I don't need to flip through to the relevant wargear section to check the stats of each weapon I'm firing with, or whatever wargear I've equipped the squad leader... I hope 40K adopts something similar.

Edit: But then, I think FW had the right idea and I'm amazed how much they get out of the different Legions by creating one tome that covers the general units, then has a few pages which cover army wide effects, special characters and units in the Horus Heresy stuff, compared to GW's "a codex for every flavor of Space Marine".

Dosiere
07-05-2016, 19:50
There are a lot of positive things happening around AOS at the moment. My question is whether it is now finally ready to topple 40k as the flagship GW game?

Whoa! Gotta learn to crawl before you can walk, and certainly before running! Assuming we're talking sales volume as the measurement, I don't think 40K is in any way a realistic goal for now. Even when WFB was still very popular back in 6th edition and so it was dwarfed by 40K. Comparing it to games like Warmahordes, Frostgrave, etc... seems more appropriate.


I will make the case for this happening:

The new Generals Handbook is definitely going to rekindle interest. You could argue that the main things holding the game back are the setting and aspects of the rules. If they sort out the rules, specifically army balance then this means that strangers can arrange games with each other and therefore the game can flourish on the ground.

I agree that this is a possible outcome. We'll see. I'm not sure it is going to appeal to those who don't like the setting or the basic rules though. It doesn't look like this is a second edition or anything, the basic rules are going to remain essentially untouched is what I have heard. A shame, for me. It will provide good content for those who already enjoy the game though for sure, and looks to actually be worth the cost compared to the other campaign books they've released. Still, if it succeeds in providing a quick and painless way to get games going in a club setting it should be a real positive for the game.


Secondly, the new summer campaign is likely to engage people into the new setting and most importantly invest people in the world of AOS.

If it's a sweet dynamic campaign system with some solid RPG elements like character progression/upgrades, yes it could be a lot of fun.


Thirdly, the models coming out for AOS are far superior to those coming out for 40k.

Here, I really disagree, and it's not because of aesthetic tastes. I really hate the monopose nature of the AoS stuff. Give me a super convertible multi part plastic kit any day. Nothing can touch the Space Marine line for this reason. You have so many dang kits across various factions to choose bits from it's silly. It's one of the greatest value-added benefits of using GWs expensive miniatures for me, and the one thing keeping me buying them even now.


Finally, and most importantly, 40k is starting to feel like a bloated game that GW is trying to stuff more into. It is becoming a chore of hoop jumping writing an army list, and the power gaming formation free for all means that there game balance is losing out. AOS might feel like a breath of fresh air with its innovative simple ruleset and now rules for balanced play.

thoughts?

Agreed on the 40K feeling, but despite AoS appearing that way at first I did not find it so, I would certainly not call it innovative. It's simple at its core, for sure, which can be a great thing. If the Generals Handbook does manage to provide a superior experience in a competitive setting while keeping the rules simple and the games fast maybe.

Ben
07-05-2016, 20:05
Wish I had been around for that meltdown.

When games or companies do all they can to alienate players, yes people give up on them and put that money into something else. PC gaming is getting a huge infusion this month so I wouldnt be shocked (I am getting one after...8 or so years?).

I've known a few people who've said 'you've got to play it 4-5 times at least to 'get it' as a game' who've then played 30-40 games and then said 'I was just kidding myself, it was all sunk cost fallacy, the game is terrible, can I trade this for X-wing?'. This was all online of course, I've seen two people play Aos in a GW store recently, but not in the first six months of it's release.

It might be interesting to look at the people who started AoS and have since quit, and ask why they have done so.

scruffyryan
07-05-2016, 20:29
Poster Hello Kitty of these parts said exactly that with one of his last posts. He sold his entire collection and bought a gaming PC.

Didn't he do that after months of pumping up AoS, how good it was doing, how much his group was enjoying it, immediately before admitting that his group actually decided they weren't that into it and disintegrated into the ether?

Malagor
07-05-2016, 20:41
Didn't he do that after months of pumping up AoS, how good it was doing, how much his group was enjoying it, immediately before admitting that his group actually decided they weren't that into it and disintegrated into the ether?
Yes and to be fair it might have been true that they were enjoying for a while.
But it's not uncommon to hear that people tried it and enjoyed it for a month or two but then got bored.
I feel sorry for Kitty, I really do, he enjoyed AoS and sadly he had only one option to play AoS and that was with people that didn't like it in the end(think it was kings of war that they switched to) and it was sad for him that he couldn't find anyone else in his area.

Ben
07-05-2016, 21:08
Yes and to be fair it might have been true that they were enjoying for a while.
But it's not uncommon to hear that people tried it and enjoyed it for a month or two but then got bored.
I feel sorry for Kitty, I really do, he enjoyed AoS and sadly he had only one option to play AoS and that was with people that didn't like it in the end(think it was kings of war that they switched to) and it was sad for him that he couldn't find anyone else in his area.

I felt a bit less sympathetic given how shrill he was about everything, and how he didn't just pick up Frostgrave or Dragon Rampant and play a system that is casual, narrative, he could use his existing minis, and that people want to play.

People were pointing out the sunk cost fallacy was kicking in big with him, or that some of the stuff he was saying didn't add up, and he wouldn't listen.

I think his group even put out a comp before they just gave up trying to fix AoS.

Herzlos
07-05-2016, 22:39
My question is whether it is now finally ready to topple 40k as the flagship GW game?

No. Ignoring things like rule quality and fluff, there's just a complete lack of interest in AoS.

I was at the first of 3 big gaming conventions of the year in Scotland and whilst I saw approximately a million Space Marines being sold in some form, I saw precisely 1 box of the AoS starter being split, and in the hour I observed it (I was working a neighboring stall) the only interest came from me. And I was wanting bits of it for Frostgrave.

Space Marines alone outsold WHFB, and AoS apparently is doing nowhere near as well as WHFB, so the gap between Space Marines and AoS is huge. I honestly can't see AoS toppling 40K any time soon unless 40K implodes.

To be honest I don't think AoS is even ready for GW to treat it as a core game, let alone a flagship game. I wouldn't be surprised if AoS sales are dwarfed by Blood Bowl when it re-launches.

veterannoob
07-05-2016, 22:42
I felt a bit less sympathetic given how shrill he was about everything, and how he didn't just pick up Frostgrave or Dragon Rampant and play a system that is casual, narrative, he could use his existing minis, and that people want to play.

People were pointing out the sunk cost fallacy was kicking in big with him, or that some of the stuff he was saying didn't add up, and he wouldn't listen.

I think his group even put out a comp before they just gave up trying to fix AoS.

i remember seeing this Hell Kitty when I first joined the forum. Sounds like I missed a helluva show:(

Pojko
07-05-2016, 23:03
Never going to happen. And it's all about what 40K has and AoS doesn't have rather than any notion of AoS being bad.

Most importantly, 40K has Space Marines. AoS doesn't, despite how hard they tried to. Space Marines sell more than anything else in GW. I've heard more than all the other 40K armies combined.

40K has a beloved and established lore. AoS doesn't. People have been invested in the 41st millennium for years, and in some cases decades. 40K grew as the company did, and you can't recreate that kind of organic growth in a sales meeting like what they're doing with AoS.

40K is popular in some pop culture circles, at least in the nerdy internet ones where it matters. You can find things like "For the Emperor!" and "Purge the heretic!" or other references in places that have nothing to do with Games Workshop. In fact I just saw one yesterday in the latest "Alternate History Hub" video. AoS doesn't have memes except things which don't view it in a favorable light.

40K has popular video game titles, including Dawn of War 3 which was just recently announced. AoS has none. In fact, there are more games coming out for the dead WHFB universe than there are for AoS.

So... 40K has everything going for it while AoS has nothing. It will never overtake 40K as the flagship game.

scruffyryan
07-05-2016, 23:19
Never going to happen. And it's all about what 40K has and AoS doesn't have rather than any notion of AoS being bad.

Most importantly, 40K has Space Marines. AoS doesn't, despite how hard they tried to. Space Marines sell more than anything else in GW. I've heard more than all the other 40K armies combined.

40K has a beloved and established lore. AoS doesn't. People have been invested in the 41st millennium for years, and in some cases decades. 40K grew as the company did, and you can't recreate that kind of organic growth in a sales meeting like what they're doing with AoS.

40K is popular in some pop culture circles, at least in the nerdy internet ones where it matters. You can find things like "For the Emperor!" and "Purge the heretic!" or other references in places that have nothing to do with Games Workshop. In fact I just saw one yesterday in the latest "Alternate History Hub" video. AoS doesn't have memes except things which don't view it in a favorable light.

40K has popular video game titles, including Dawn of War 3 which was just recently announced. AoS has none. In fact, there are more games coming out for the dead WHFB universe than there are for AoS.

So... 40K has everything going for it while AoS has nothing. It will never overtake 40K as the flagship game.


It has to overtake warmahordes first (Which is sitting right where WFB was before they killed it)

Smooth Boy
08-05-2016, 01:05
If AoS is ever selling more than 40K, then GW is in big trouble in little Nottingham.

Warlord Gnashgrod
08-05-2016, 03:02
GW burned their bridges when they not only destroyed the WHFB game, but the setting/backstory of it as well.

The only way it could outsell 40K is if 40K stopped existing. Literally stopped existing. I'm sorry, but you can't improve rules for a game that doesn't even really HAVE rules. Calling the AOS rules actual 'rules' is an insult to the concept of rules. AOS's 'rules' are nothing more than a bad joke. They can't be fixed, only replaced. Any 'fixing' done to AOS is just too little, too late, IMO. 99% of the gamers have moved on. About the only chance GW has of getting it to sell would be utterly new rules, and greatly dropping their prices. And we know them dropping prices will never, ever happen.

I'm personally just wating for 40K to get the same treatment as WHFB did. Then GW can completely die as a company.

Axel
08-05-2016, 05:52
Lol how brave of you to do this thread on warseer.
Brace yourself for how bad is AoS doing with no kind of evidence, and how GW will bankrupt and be bought next couple of years.
And it only sells for 40k conversions.
And an incessant whining of how GW killed WHFB.
I could go on and on.
But how brave of you. ;)

The really typical thing for Warseer are people whining about how whiny OTHER people allegedly are...

And to the OP: The only way AoS is going to topple 40k is when GW really breaks 40k the way they did WFB. Some may whine that they are on the way. I would join them :-)

Axel
08-05-2016, 05:58
True. There's no reason why AoS shouldn't become GW's flagship game and I'm not really sure what 'potential' we're talking about here.

Imho the "potential" is immense. All you have to do is to introduce a background with a very large, 30 year old fanbase, and fill it with decent merchandize, especially miniatures and good rules to use these.

I agree with the OP that GW is moving in a good direction with AoS right now - but only because they have put it in a place where it is pretty easy to move in a good direction from, while it is hard to find a road taking it worse.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
08-05-2016, 07:00
I think people are seriously underestimating the swell of players that will emerge when dedicated aelf books and releases come out.

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GrandmasterWang
08-05-2016, 10:57
I think people are seriously underestimating the swell of players that will emerge when dedicated aelf books and releases come out.

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I doubt it will be any more than came with the releases of High/Dark/Wood elves. All of the 8th Edition elf releases were well received and Wood elves especially were sold out in a lot of places. All the elf releases combined couldnt touch the recent space marine releases

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Ben
08-05-2016, 11:36
Thing is though that the Silver Tower mini releases look good, and it tells us where they are going with the Elf theme.

Buddy Bear
08-05-2016, 13:30
I think people are seriously underestimating the swell of players that will emerge when dedicated aelf books and releases come out.

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I think you're seriously overestimating the number of players who'll suddenly turn up for an Aelf release. By way of comparison, the Seraphon limited edition battletome never sold out while the Lizardmen 8th Edition limited edition army book sold out within days. Despite being the same exact army, their popularity dropped precipitously from Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar. So why would Elves/Aelfs suddenly become more popular, or even as popular, in AOS?

ntw3001
08-05-2016, 13:47
If people were that desperate to be playing with Aelfs, they'd already be playing with Elves. It seems unlikely that there are a huge number of Elf players with Elf armies who want to play AoS but won't until the Aelfs are released. But still more likely than the Aelfs being the single perfect release that will bring swarms of new players flooding in. I'm not convinced that there are that many people who don't have Elves but crave Aelfs.

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Skargit Crookfang
08-05-2016, 16:23
I think people are seriously underestimating the swell of players that will emerge when dedicated aelf books and releases come out.

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Based on what?

CountUlrich
08-05-2016, 17:22
It will be the same as dwarves. The vast majoritynof us who have moved to other systems will have no interest because the new aesthetic is even further from anything remotely interesting to us, or fitting with the rest of our collection.

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Malagor
08-05-2016, 20:55
Well never know. Maybe the Aelfs(stupid name) release will be good for Eldar like the orcs was good for the Orks.

Kahadras
08-05-2016, 21:15
Based on what?

Hope probably.

Don't worry though. If Aelfs don't float the game then we can all be assured that AoS 2nd ed will.

Katastrophe
08-05-2016, 21:26
I think you're seriously overestimating the number of players who'll suddenly turn up for an Aelf release. By way of comparison, the Seraphon limited edition battletome never sold out while the Lizardmen 8th Edition limited edition army book sold out within days. Despite being the same exact army, their popularity dropped precipitously from Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar. So why would Elves/Aelfs suddenly become more popular, or even as popular, in AOS?

New models perhaps. Well that's the expectation at least.

If they look good I might buy a box. A box as in one. No interest in the game though and still wouldn't wanna play even if the models were an 11 out of 10.

Those sales however would only take them so far. I suspect those will be early then will fall off fast.

dragonelf
08-05-2016, 22:07
I think the General' s Handbook will be the first AOS book that will be a big seller. Obviously depending what is in there, it could turn things around for AOS. 9th age, 8th edition, warmahordes and basically any game except 40k is well within the crosshairs of AOS. That's not to say that it is a better game than those, but there's already evidence that more or the same number of people play AOS compared to those games and that's with no framework.

Whether it can topple 40k as I have put to the forum....that's unlikely, without some cataclysmic AOS releases, and 40k getting some seriously bad releases. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't aspire to be a fantasy game at the same magnitude as 40k. I just wonder how much GW is prepared to throw at it before they cut their losses....

Ben
08-05-2016, 22:18
Yeah, basically for AoS to overtake 40k, 40k would have to collapse.

You could make an argument for whether Aos boxed set sales would overtake Betrayal at Calth. AoS had a six month head start, but I get the impression BaC sold better even with that.

GW have given a profit warning since launching and frozen staff pay and sacked a lot of managers for failing to sell AoS, while the popularity of a lot of other games has exploded. If there is going to be another summer of AoS and it doesn't cause another profit warning and the staff to get a beating, then things will have improved.

AngryAngel
08-05-2016, 22:20
Uh, no ? I think you vastly over estimate the quality of game work GW are going to put into this. I know it is easy to ride the imaginary horse all the way to crazy town, but lets see what they actually deliver before we start praising the sun for its release. I doubt highly fantasy will over take 40k.

veterannoob
08-05-2016, 22:22
New models perhaps. Well that's the expectation at least.

If they look good I might buy a box. A box as in one. No interest in the game though and still wouldn't wanna play even if the models were an 11 out of 10.

Those sales however would only take them so far. I suspect those will be early then will fall off fast.

well, just like dwarfs, there are a lot of elf players out there waiting to see what happens with Aelf options are using their models in single or GA Order armies. And not only for a new expected Malekith or wtf his name is now. Find them in gaming groups, online in forums and especially social media, at events. If the kits are great I have no doubt they'll do what I would consider not a disaster, Imo. Hope the elf players here like them. Hope I like them, for that matter:) never considered playing elves, just wood elves in 8th new book.

Sete
11-05-2016, 10:38
The really typical thing for Warseer are people whining about how whiny OTHER people allegedly are...

And to the OP: The only way AoS is going to topple 40k is when GW really breaks 40k the way they did WFB. Some may whine that they are on the way. I would join them :-)

How ironic. ;)

I dont think AoS will topple 40k.
I agree that sci fi attracts more people than fantasy, and tje AoS setting needs to mature.