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2DSick
07-05-2016, 15:36
This is on the UK webstore.

I've been Google foo ing to find answers but all I find is a codex revamp of csm and crimson slaughter.

Gw aren't exactly open with.... Anything thet ever do.

Is this an indication of new csm on the way?

If they are and also of the same ilk as dark vengeance... I might be convinced back into the game properly!

Daenerys Targaryen
07-05-2016, 18:29
At this point, I'd be more inclined to believe that GW is simply squatting Chaos Marines entirely, since we've only gone 10-15+ years without any real rules or model support...

Model wise, we've received by far, the least model support of every in-store army in 40k.
Since 2012, we've received;
- Forge/Maulerfiend kit
- Raptor/Warptalon kit
- Helchicken
- Helbrute
- re-box of 5 mono-pose DV Cultists

Fully half or more of entire model line is still an early 2000's hybrid kit, and/or, are simply still waiting for an actual model kit... Most of our basic wargear upgrades are either demonstrably expensive to get ahold of, and/or are simply outright missing.

Rules wise, Chaos has no identity, and no niche of it's own... Anything Chaos can do, everyone else does just as well or outright better, and typically also for cheaper too.

We're really at the point that you begin to ask yourself, "why do CSM's even exist?"
You can readily play any of the Legions much better, and much closer to their actual background, by simply writing 'Chaos' across the top of Vanilla/DA/SW/BA marines or GK's!

2DSick
07-05-2016, 20:22
At this point, I'd be more inclined to believe that GW is simply squatting Chaos Marines entirely, since we've only gone 10-15+ years without any real rules or model support...

Model wise, we've received by far, the least model support of every in-store army in 40k.
Since 2012, we've received;
- Forge/Maulerfiend kit
- Raptor/Warptalon kit
- Helchicken
- Helbrute
- re-box of 5 mono-pose DV Cultists

Fully half or more of entire model line is still an early 2000's hybrid kit, and/or, are simply still waiting for an actual model kit... Most of our basic wargear upgrades are either demonstrably expensive to get ahold of, and/or are simply outright missing.

Rules wise, Chaos has no identity, and no niche of it's own... Anything Chaos can do, everyone else does just as well or outright better, and typically also for cheaper too.

We're really at the point that you begin to ask yourself, "why do CSM's even exist?"
You can readily play any of the Legions much better, and much closer to their actual background, by simply writing 'Chaos' across the top of Vanilla/DA/SW/BA marines or GK's!

.... I can't believe that... They'd have to ret con the entire fluff of their cashcow....

Or AoS 40k.... Kill the corpse emperor, he's reborn as the star child, real emperor returns, all space marines repent and return to his service... Unlikely... And ****...

Chaos. The corruption of the space marines. The imperial truth being disproved and real gods discovered leading to the worship of the false emperor... ITS ALL SO FLUFFY!

... That's all that has my interest in 40k atm...

The only reason they "have no identity" right now is because their rules are ****!

They've been **** since 3.5 git overwritten by a vanilla codex marine book.


If they get squatted that's my last tie with gw gone...

Daenerys Targaryen
07-05-2016, 20:42
If I were an optimist, my actual hope would be that GW is going to spend the next 8-10 months simply selling out/burning down the current horse gak excuse of a model line that Chaos has had to put with for the past decade plus... Just throw EVERYTHING in a dumpster, lite it, and be done with it. The whole line is so hilariously out of date, looks genuinely awful, and has so many hole in it, that even Sisters are able to build their basic upgrades & units easier than CSM's can!

Then, once there's nothing left, we can get an actual release next April/May, and get a proper re-boot that can last a full 6-8 weeks.

Rules be damned! I just want a model line that isn't perpetually stuck in 2004!!

2DSick
07-05-2016, 20:52
If I were an optimist, my actual hope would be that GW is going to spend the next 8-10 months simply selling out/burning down the current horse gak excuse of a model line that Chaos has had to put with for the past decade plus... Just throw EVERYTHING in a dumpster, lite it, and be done with it. The whole line is so hilariously out of date, looks genuinely awful, and has so many hole in it, that even Sisters are able to build their basic upgrades & units easier than CSM's can!

Then, once there's nothing left, we can get an actual release next April/May, and get a proper re-boot that can last a full 6-8 weeks.

Rules be damned! I just want a model line that isn't perpetually stuck in 2004!!

+1 mate.

I've got the dark vengeance set atm painting it up as my favourites, the word bearers. I'm hoping they'll be aesthetically akin to that set...

Fingers crossed.

Lord Damocles
07-05-2016, 20:52
If they get squatted that's my last tie with gw gone...
Well they're blatantly not going to be, so it's not worth wasting keyboard wear on :eyebrows:

2DSick
07-05-2016, 20:53
We all said that about the old world too HAHA :-o

Rogue Star
07-05-2016, 20:54
... someone doesn't know about the year of Tzeentch update incoming...

Edit: The basic boxed set of Chaos Space Marines and everything that uses the basic squad is gone. It's almost like the core Chaos Space Marine unit is getting updated like SM Tactical Squads and Fire Warriors isn't it?

Losing Command
07-05-2016, 21:00
... someone doesn't know about the year of Tzeentch update incoming...

Which is surely not going to have anything concerning chaos marines models ; GW clearly showed what they thougth about tzeentch marines by releasing plastic thousand sons casualties to put on SW bases without even a hint of updating the actual models themselves (or their rules for that matter, basically nothing changed to them between the last two editions) ;)

Rogue Star
07-05-2016, 21:02
Which is surely not going to have anything concerning chaos marines models ; GW clearly showed what they thougth about tzeentch marines by releasing plastic thousand sons casualties to put on SW bases without even a hint of updating the actual models themselves (or their rules for that matter, basically nothing changed to them between the last two editions) ;)

And with the second part of Warzone Fenris... like it would be terrible if during all this confusion with the return of the Wulfen and invasion of Fenris, Tzeentch related Chaos Space Marines and Daemons decided to attack... wouldn't it? :shifty:

2DSick
07-05-2016, 21:18
... someone doesn't know about the year of Tzeentch update incoming...

Edit: The basic boxed set of Chaos Space Marines and everything that uses the basic squad is gone. It's almost like the core Chaos Space Marine unit is getting updated like SM Tactical Squads and Fire Warriors isn't it?

This is what I'm hopeful for...

Then lofty up there starts piping up about squatsville and I'm all like WHAAAAAAA?... Sometimes I wish geedawb would be a little more transparent.

Azazyll
07-05-2016, 21:27
Wow, whining from Chaos players, what a shock. It's almost as if Chaos wasn't the opposing force in the last starter with a bunch of gorgeous new models.

They'll get redone eventually, and these are good signs that will be sooner rather than later. Whether the rules will be any good is a whole nother question.

A.T.
07-05-2016, 22:08
...since we've only gone 10-15+ years without any real rules or model supportAbout 12 days actually, but then who's counting.

Congratulations on your new models / commiserations on your temporary stock hiccup/reboxing as appropriate.

Daenerys Targaryen
07-05-2016, 22:24
... someone doesn't know about the year of Tzeentch update incoming...

Edit: The basic boxed set of Chaos Space Marines and everything that uses the basic squad is gone. It's almost like the core Chaos Space Marine unit is getting updated like SM Tactical Squads and Fire Warriors isn't it?
And Chaos players have a right be grumpy and call GW out on it, especially since Marines have had in some cases, multiple re-releases of their squads, while our entire model line continues to rot from over a decade plus of outright neglect.

And we've been told by multiple reliable sources not to expect much for Chaos this year, at least as far as 40k is concerned... The 'year of Tzeentch', is almost entirely AoS related, while the LoC is about the only thing that's NOT! ready for release this year.

New plastic Thousand Sons are the only confirmed reliable rumor.
Warzone Fenris Part II is rumored to contain updates + Decurion style detachment for Grey Knights, with added speculation it will also contain the remaining Great Companies. (ie: Bran Redmaw + Erik Morkai, who are just about to show up in-system)

That's all we actively know for 40k. Anything else that isn't coming from the reliable sources, (Sad Panda, Atia, Hastings/Harry), is just hearsay/horse gak.

Oh, and here's the most shocking prediction: Space Wolves/Imperium will win in the end, while making Chaos look like complete chumps.

Kakapo42
08-05-2016, 00:28
Well this is certainly... disturbing.

They still seem to be available in the NZ webstore, so all may not be lost just yet. I wonder if this has any connection to the disappearance of the Immolator kit? I'd love to see both those kits made available again just how they were, and it might just be that GW is planning on fixing a bunch of damaged moulds at the same time that includes both of them. I can dream can't I?


Rules be damned! I just want a model line that isn't perpetually stuck in 2004!!

I would kill to have a model line that's perpetually stuck in 2004. Oh how I wish the Firewarriors and Crisis Suits were still that way. At least I have what's left of the Sisters of Battle I suppose.

Smooth Boy
08-05-2016, 01:16
I Hope they don't take the new CSM's in too much of a heresy direction. You can see quite a bit of MKIV in the new raptors.

The Black Shield
08-05-2016, 02:01
Most of what I've seen that has gone away has either been old sculpts or old sculpts that were Web Only items. let's face it the Chaos Marine Squad was old and needed to be redone.

WarsmithGarathor94
08-05-2016, 06:48
And with the second part of Warzone Fenris... like it would be terrible if during all this confusion with the return of the Wulfen and invasion of Fenris, Tzeentch related Chaos Space Marines and Daemons decided to attack... wouldn't it? :shifty:

Yeah that's all well and good if you play tzeench......

Raven1
08-05-2016, 07:14
I would venture to guess since we just got updated codex supplements we probably won't see a CSM codex until 8th edition.

jbeil
08-05-2016, 07:51
Does this mean we might get backpacks that actually fit?

Lord Damocles
08-05-2016, 08:15
Does this mean we might get backpacks that actually fit?
No. They're just going to remove backpacks from the kits altogether because Chaos players don't deserve them.

Then GW will send a representative to your house to stamp on your pet dog.

Raven1
08-05-2016, 08:19
Does this mean we might get backpacks that actually fit?

Probably a reboxing for larger bases

Denny
08-05-2016, 08:49
And Chaos players have a right be grumpy and call GW out on it, especially since Marines have had in some cases, multiple re-releases of their squads, while our entire model line continues to rot from over a decade plus of outright neglect.

Isn't that just adhering to the fluff? Chaos Marines are supposed to be wearing old outdated armour.:shifty:
And, whilst anyone has the 'right' to be grumpy, other players have just as much right to mock them.
And this is coming from a Chaos player.;)

WarsmithGarathor94
08-05-2016, 10:04
Actually I take back my grumpy comment
Idc what tzeench gets I will happily let loose the Hounds of Abbadon on them the bunch of cowardly psykers :p

Azazyll
08-05-2016, 13:47
No. They're just going to remove backpacks from the kits altogether because Chaos players don't deserve them.

Then GW will send a representative to your house to stamp on your pet dog.

This was amazing. Well done sir. But it seems to me a CSM player is too bitter to have a dog. They're clearly cat people.

Tyberos
08-05-2016, 14:16
Probably a reboxing for larger bases

I would hope that they're looking at releasing a new kit for chaos marines but I expect it will just be the same sprues packaged with the larger bases, with a price increase of course.

The kit was being sold for 23.50 on the UK web-store, my guess for a new price would be 25 like the 10 man Tactical Squad.

WarsmithGarathor94
08-05-2016, 14:17
This was amazing. Well done sir. But it seems to me a CSM player is too bitter to have a dog. They're clearly cat people.
Idk having your army have every army in the game except nids do the things it's supposed to be good at either better or cheaper is pretty irritating. Heck gw probably won't even dare let the thousand sons wreck fenris permanently

Daenerys Targaryen
08-05-2016, 14:44
Probably a reboxing for larger bases
They already had re-boxed them with the 32's.

insectum7
08-05-2016, 19:46
No. They're just going to remove backpacks from the kits altogether because Chaos players don't deserve them.

Then GW will send a representative to your house to stamp on your pet dog.

A hearty lol to you!


This was amazing. Well done sir. But it seems to me a CSM player is too bitter to have a dog. They're clearly cat people.

I dunno about that, I've met more angry dog owners than cat owners. Besides they're Flesh-Hounds not Flesh-Felines.

More on topic, the last couple Chaos infantry releases have been really cool, even if few and far between. If they're re-doing the line that seems like great news. I just hope they still fit the FW Berzerker, and DG upgrades, which are pretty sweet looking.

Daenerys Targaryen
08-05-2016, 20:30
Let's see, right now the only sets we need re-doing on would be;
- Chaos Space Marines
- Terminators
- Chosen
- Havocs
- Berserkers
- Noise Marines
- Plaguemarines
- Cultists
- Possessed
- Oblits/Mutilators
- Rhino w/unique variant
- Land Raider w/unique variant
- Predator w/unique variant
- Defiler that doesn't look like it came out of a Happy Meal...

Oh, and for once, it would be really nice if we could get more than a single kit that comes with more than maybe at best, 40% of our squad's possible options... Seriously, imagine buying a Tactical Squad that only comes with 5-8 Bolters! Now welcome to the misery that is trying to cobble together a Chaos army.

Losing Command
08-05-2016, 22:45
What's wrong with the old trusty Rhino or Landraider with CSM upgrade sprue ? Loyalist also still use the same kit, even if more variants have been added to them. It also seems more likely for CSM to cobble something together themselves.

The basic CSM kit could be made in such a way that one can also make a unit of Havocs, Chosen and maybe some of the more tame looking cult units out of it.

Mack
09-05-2016, 00:35
This is a good thing. New CSM will come out of the warp stronger than ever...

Azazyll
09-05-2016, 00:48
What's wrong with the old trusty Rhino or Landraider with CSM upgrade sprue ? Loyalist also still use the same kit, even if more variants have been added to them. It also seems more likely for CSM to cobble something together themselves.

The basic CSM kit could be made in such a way that one can also make a unit of Havocs, Chosen and maybe some of the more tame looking cult units out of it.

This seems unlikely, considering what GW have done with regular marines

Daenerys Targaryen
09-05-2016, 01:00
What's wrong with the old trusty Rhino or Landraider with CSM upgrade sprue ? Loyalist also still use the same kit, even if more variants have been added to them. It also seems more likely for CSM to cobble something together themselves.

The basic CSM kit could be made in such a way that one can also make a unit of Havocs, Chosen and maybe some of the more tame looking cult units out of it.
We need our own toys. If Loyalists can get 4-5+ variants of Land Raiders, then Chaos likewise deserves to have at least 1 unique variant of our own, instead of having the only the worst variant, that's also a completely useless crap heap that's laughably unplayable!

And no, we don't need or want a single CSM 'super kit'. If Loyalist scum can get seperate kits for Tacticals/Devs/Vets, then we likewise bloody well deserve the same!

insectum7
09-05-2016, 03:13
We need our own toys.

Like a mechanical dragon! Or maybe a big walker that has a battlecannon on it and big claws!

Losing Command
09-05-2016, 05:42
If you expect GW to have as much attention for each army as their flagship posterboys then you are setting yourself up for disappiontment.
GK have a single kit for all their power armoured units and it works fine if you ask me, and sure is a lot better than spending a fortune on metal models. Or having to wait a few months or years between each plastic infantery kit.

Lord Damocles
09-05-2016, 07:37
If Loyalists can get 4-5+ variants of Land Raiders, then Chaos likewise deserves to have at least 1 unique variant of our own, instead of having the only the worst variant
It's funny that you won't count Forge World variants for Chaos...

Spiney Norman
09-05-2016, 09:15
I gave up on CSM over a year ago, I've been building up a word bearers heresy force since then.

I'll be doing the same with my sisters of battle when FW get their Sisters of Silence range out.

Both armies are indesperate need to an update to both rules and models in 40k, it'll happen when it happens, not use complaining about it.

Daenerys Targaryen
09-05-2016, 14:50
If you expect GW to have as much attention for each army as their flagship posterboys then you are setting yourself up for disappiontment.
GK have a single kit for all their power armoured units and it works fine if you ask me, and sure is a lot better than spending a fortune on metal models. Or having to wait a few months or years between each plastic infantery kit.
A single kit works for Grey Knights because each one is roughly the same, and they have very specialised & limited upgrades.

Doing similar with Chaos Marines would mean we end up with even fewer options than the bare handful we still have!
Not to mention that it would make CSM's even more expensive than they already are...

blackcherry
09-05-2016, 18:18
Darn GW, employing miniature designers and rules writers that exclusively hate CSM so that the army is always being stamped upon.

I hate the CSM rhinos and squad boxed set. How dare they not release a new sculpt for these every 2 years and instead incrementally include better sculpts in the base boxed set that fine enough as it is instead.

I'm going to tell everyone on every thread on Warseer about how screwed Chaos (discounting demons and all the new sculpts we get, because NEW IS BAD) are. THEN GW will be found out.

2DSick
17-05-2016, 19:44
Wow, this thread seems to have escalated!

Blackcherry... I can't figure out whether you're an actual sore csm player, being Uber sarcastic or just being a massive prick to other sore csm players...

Pretty sure this thread was started to get oppinons on whether the stock status was a sign on new things to come... Not a stand up request for people to be a holes to each other.

WarsmithGarathor94
17-05-2016, 20:22
Blackcherry or it could just be alot of csm players like myself are sick of seeing our favorite faction treated like a paper bag? Heaven forbid we want back the things that were taken from us and given to loyalist marines ie legion chapter tactics relic blades artificer armour

Lord Damocles
17-05-2016, 20:48
...taken from us...
If we're going to go down that road, Space marines had Artificer Armour first, so... :eyebrows:

WarsmithGarathor94
17-05-2016, 21:08
If we're going to go down that road, Space marines had Artificer Armour first, so... :eyebrows:

Actually technically chaos did unless your saying they had it before chaos got chaos armour :p
But then again I'd like to see chaos power armour give some kind of invun save in addition to the 3+ armour as I feel well if gw wants to make chaos different from space marines stop focusing the codex on renegades and focus it on the legions and those chapters who have turned traitor more than 500 years ago who are full blown traitor marines

blackcherry
17-05-2016, 21:30
Wow, this thread seems to have escalated!

Blackcherry... I can't figure out whether you're an actual sore csm player, being Uber sarcastic or just being a massive prick to other sore csm players...

Pretty sure this thread was started to get oppinons on whether the stock status was a sign on new things to come... Not a stand up request for people to be a holes to each other.

Sorry, just having my fun where I can :) . I'm an old hand at chaos (been collecting the faction for close to two decades now) and the reaction of some posters on here (two very reoccurring ones to be precise...) who flood every topic on this board with the same whine in some vain hope of...well actually I don't know what they mean to accomplish, but as a psch student I would love to sit down with them and talk about what the underlying causes are :p

I'll now leave this thread in peace. But you draconian warsmiths, if you ever want to chat, I'm just a PM away...

Daenerys Targaryen
18-05-2016, 01:02
Sorry, just having my fun where I can :) . I'm an old hand at chaos (been collecting the faction for close to two decades now) and the reaction of some posters on here (two very reoccurring ones to be precise...) who flood every topic on this board with the same whine in some vain hope of...well actually I don't know what they mean to accomplish, but as a psch student I would love to sit down with them and talk about what the underlying causes are :p

I'll now leave this thread in peace. But you draconian warsmiths, if you ever want to chat, I'm just a PM away...
You do realise that the current CSM kit can't even build the basic wargear for each Marine? We get 8 bolters in the kit... Imagine the whinefest if Loyalists only got 8 bolters in their Tactical Squad kit.

The Terminator kit is easily the single worst plastic kit GW has ever produced. You can't build even a basic naked squad out of it, as it's only got 3/5 combi-bolters & power weapons...

Yeah, shame on us spoiled Chaos players for wanting even basic, bare bones options in our kits.

A.T.
18-05-2016, 01:23
Imagine the whinefest if Loyalists only got 8 bolters in their Tactical Squad kit.I imagine most players wouldn't notice.

Was the chaos marine sprue recut at some point though? It used to come with five bolters for five models - two pairs of two on one side and the fifth bolter next to the cluster of shoulderpads.

deathrain-commander
18-05-2016, 01:57
I hate to be down on Chaos Marines, but I feel like the arguments that they're neglected would carry more weight if they hadn't gotten both of their supplements updated (including some extremely powerful new formations) like a month ago.

I mean, I realize that playing Sisters of Battle means that any claims from someone that their army is neglected will ring hollow to me, but this one especially seems odd. You just got some support, come on.

MajorWesJanson
18-05-2016, 02:15
You do realise that the current CSM kit can't even build the basic wargear for each Marine? We get 8 bolters in the kit... Imagine the whinefest if Loyalists only got 8 bolters in their Tactical Squad kit.

The Terminator kit is easily the single worst plastic kit GW has ever produced. You can't build even a basic naked squad out of it, as it's only got 3/5 combi-bolters & power weapons...

Yeah, shame on us spoiled Chaos players for wanting even basic, bare bones options in our kits.


New models without a new codex would be a bloody disaster... The entire army is 3 entire editions out of date, and hasn't had a single new piece of basic wargear in nearly 20 years. The only thing that we'd get out of new models before a codex that can actively add new special/heavy weapons, is to remain stuck with Plasma guns & Autocannons as our 'best bets', against everyone else sporting their Gauss/Grav/Scatlasers/Pulse weaponry/Splinter rifles/etc...

Leave the basics like CSM's, Terminators, Havocs & Chosen until a new codex can fix their lack of options.

Yes, shame on CSM players who want basic, bare bones options in their kit, except that would be a disaster, so leave those kits alone until they get more special options.

Kakapo42
18-05-2016, 02:27
You do realise that the current CSM kit can't even build the basic wargear for each Marine? We get 8 bolters in the kit... Imagine the whinefest if Loyalists only got 8 bolters in their Tactical Squad kit.

The Terminator kit is easily the single worst plastic kit GW has ever produced. You can't build even a basic naked squad out of it, as it's only got 3/5 combi-bolters & power weapons...

Yeah, shame on us spoiled Chaos players for wanting even basic, bare bones options in our kits.

Is more than 8 bolters actually needed though? I'm not sure if it's required in the rules or not, but most Chaos Space Marine squads I've seen generally only tend to have 8 bolter-armed models in them, with the others either carrying special/heavy weapons or being an Icon-bearer and Champion (who tends to carry something else instead). Are completely naked all-10 bolter Chaos Space marine squads particularly desirable or common? I'm not sure I see the problem here. A lack of special and heavy weapons in the kit would seem more problematic to me (but then in turn that would be at least partially offset by compatibility with the Havoc models).

Again, I'm not sure how critical having 5 combi-bolters and power weapons is. How often are naked Chaos Terminators fielded? Would there be any particular draw besides minimising points expenditure? Most lists I've seen tend to give at least a few extra weapons to the Chaos Terminator squad (combi-meltas are quite popular I believe).

Also a lack of bare bones options is hardly endemic to Chaos Space Marines. Tau are one of the GW favourites at the moment, and their new shiny Firewarrior kit can't even build a full team. And that's an army that favoured by GW at the moment.

Losing Command
18-05-2016, 03:30
I wish the loyalist sprues only had 8 bolters, my bits box is infested with excess bolters ...

Daenerys Targaryen
18-05-2016, 03:35
Yes, shame on CSM players who want basic, bare bones options in their kit, except that would be a disaster, so leave those kits alone until they get more special options.
Across their various special snowflake iterations, Loyalist scum get;
- Plasma pistols, Inferno pistols, Hand Flamers, Frost pistols
- Storm bolter, Combi-bolter, Combi-Flamer/Melta/Grav/Plasma gun
- Flamer, Meltagun, Plasma gun, Grav gun
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy bolter, Missile launcher, Multi-melta, Plasma cannon, Lascannon, Grav cannon w/OP amp.

Chaos meanwhile, gets;
- Plasma pistol
- Combi-Bolter, Combi-Flamer/Melta/Plasma gun
- Flamer, Meltagun, Plasma gun
- Heavy bolter, Missile launcher, Autocannon, Lascannon

And this is in any way remotely fair how?
New kits are desperately needed, that's a fact. New kits that don't bring Chaos out of 4th edition and into the modern arms race however, won't fix a damn thing.

Access to Hand & Heavy flamers would be ideal, and suit the close-in, aggressive nature of Chaos armies. The return of our Kai guns, and a new chaosy heavy weapon that's on a level below Grav cannons would simply allow CSMs to finally hold their own in the shooting-focused modern 40k meta.

MajorWesJanson
18-05-2016, 04:29
It would be better for the meta to see some of the excesses pulled back (lower rate of fire on grav weapons, pseudo-rending on ALL shuriken weapons) than see more nonsense added.

You also forgot that Chaos does have-
Sonic Blaster
Doom Siren
Blast Master
which are Slaanesh specific but doesn't make them not exist.

Kai gun could come back, but at 24" S6 AP3 Assault 2, would a lot of people take it over the plasma gun? Especially if it was priced the same?

New heavy weapon, why not just give the ectoplasma cannon to havocs? say 5 points over a normal plasma cannon for +1 strength.

WarsmithGarathor94
18-05-2016, 06:28
I hate to be down on Chaos Marines, but I feel like the arguments that they're neglected would carry more weight if they hadn't gotten both of their supplements updated (including some extremely powerful new formations) like a month ago.

I mean, I realize that playing Sisters of Battle means that any claims from someone that their army is neglected will ring hollow to me, but this one especially seems odd. You just got some support, come on.
Extremely ppwerful formations where? If anything they are extremely restrictive
@ MajorWesJanson well they could make hades auto cannons AP3 or 2 and allow all squads to take them allow all squads to take ectoplasma weapons

Maidel
18-05-2016, 07:37
Across their various special snowflake iterations, Loyalist scum get;
- Plasma pistols, Inferno pistols, Hand Flamers, Frost pistols
- Storm bolter, Combi-bolter, Combi-Flamer/Melta/Grav/Plasma gun
- Flamer, Meltagun, Plasma gun, Grav gun
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy bolter, Missile launcher, Multi-melta, Plasma cannon, Lascannon, Grav cannon w/OP amp.

Chaos meanwhile, gets;
- Plasma pistol
- Combi-Bolter, Combi-Flamer/Melta/Plasma gun
- Flamer, Meltagun, Plasma gun
- Heavy bolter, Missile launcher, Autocannon, Lascannon

And this is in any way remotely fair how?
New kits are desperately needed, that's a fact. New kits that don't bring Chaos out of 4th edition and into the modern arms race however, won't fix a damn thing.

Access to Hand & Heavy flamers would be ideal, and suit the close-in, aggressive nature of Chaos armies. The return of our Kai guns, and a new chaosy heavy weapon that's on a level below Grav cannons would simply allow CSMs to finally hold their own in the shooting-focused modern 40k meta.

Hang on, you are comparing 4 separate armies against one? Why didn't you include pycannons in that list and nemesis force weapons to round out the loyalist armies.

I don't disagree that chaos could do with an update, but when people exaggerate the problem and resort to hyperbole it really lessens an otherwise valid argument.

Denny
18-05-2016, 09:34
You do realise that the current CSM kit can't even build the basic wargear for each Marine? We get 8 bolters in the kit... Imagine the whinefest if Loyalists only got 8 bolters in their Tactical Squad kit.

I'm imagining it . . . and I don't think they could care seeing as how every 10 man squad has a sergeant (who inevitably has a combi-weapon) and a special weapon. In fact, I doubt they would even notice.


The Terminator kit is easily the single worst plastic kit GW has ever produced. You can't build even a basic naked squad out of it, as it's only got 3/5 combi-bolters & power weapons...

Clearly you have never tried to rank up a unit of Skaven Monkey-rats.


Yeah, shame on us spoiled Chaos players for wanting even basic, bare bones options in our kits.

No, not 'us' chaos players. You are only speaking for yourself here. If other people want to chip in with their support then they should feel free but, in my limited experience, when asked about what changes need to be made to Chaos space marines, most people don't open with 'We need kits with more bolters!'

blackcherry
18-05-2016, 09:49
Not to mention that I think the return of a who one Kai gun per army is unlikely to shift chaos into the mystical *whispers it in awe* upper tier of made up competitive rankings that constantly shift.

bad dice
18-05-2016, 09:55
Wow this topic is full of salt. Truth be told the CSM kit is so old that some of the detail is getting shallow just because the mold is acient. CSM kit came out at a time that kits did not have all the options. When it came out TAU did not even exist. So maby players wanting a new kit whit more options is not unreasonable.

A.T.
18-05-2016, 09:57
We get 8 bolters in the kit... So I don't have a recent kit to hand - but if anyone does, is this what it looks like ?

227807

Kakapo42
18-05-2016, 10:57
Wow this topic is full of salt. Truth be told the CSM kit is so old that some of the detail is getting shallow just because the mold is acient. CSM kit came out at a time that kits did not have all the options. When it came out TAU did not even exist. So maby players wanting a new kit whit more options is not unreasonable.

If I understand right, people aren't really criticising the desire for more options in the kit, more just pointing out that 'only 8 bolters' is an oddly minor fault to pounce on (rather than say, a lack of special weapons included or the inability to easily make a full-sized squad). Even I wouldn't mind seeing a complete set of special and heavy weapons put into the basic Chaos Space Marine kit if, and ONLY if, they kept the current style and aesthetic design of the kit intact (i.e. a recut to include any missing weapon options and a repair of the mould and nothing more).

Oh how I wish more kits of its vintage remained.

Sureshot05
18-05-2016, 10:57
I'm actually quite pleased by this news. GW must be thinking about releasing a new CSM kit soon. It would be great to see the basci CSM updated along the lines of Dark Vengence but with multicomponent interchangability. The current (no longer available) CSM kit did have a few special weapons, a heavy bolter, and all the icons and space on the sprues.

And with the CSM kit updated, GW can finally decided what they want to do about cult troops and havocs. Berserkers have a plastic kit (giant hands aside, it is quite servicable), and the terminators are fine, so in terms of core iconic models the CSM range would get a major revamp for what could be a couple of releases.

I think this list has far too many demands, and realistically is too much down to personal preference.

- Chaos Space Marines - Yes
- Terminators - No kit is good and sevicable. Interchanges with Chaos lord and quite customisable.
- Chosen - Kit is missing except for Dark Vengence.
- Havocs - Needs basic CSM.
- Berserkers - Unlikely. It is a niche in the CSM playerset. More likely to be in several years time when they reconsider Khorne and daemonkin.
- Noise Marines - Likely due to resin components, needs basic CSM addressing.
- Plaguemarines - Likely due to resin components, needs basic CSM addressing.
- Cultists - These are available and quite new. You can get them in multiple formats.
- Possessed - Again a modern kit which is great looking imo. Its too low a priority.
- Oblits/Mutilators - Plastic kit for these must be ready. Why else release the rules for mutilators in the first place.
- Rhino w/unique variant - Space marines haven't had this revisited so CSM won't.
- Land Raider w/unique variant - Space marines haven't had this revisited so CSM won't.
- Predator w/unique variant - Space marines haven't had this revisited so CSM won't.
- Defiler that doesn't look like it came out of a Happy Meal... - Again personal preference. I prefer the defiler over all the other daemon engines for looking like a machine, rather than a metal dinosaur. It is also the base kit of the soul grinder and that doesn't need updating.

So to summarise:
- CSM
- Oblit/Mutilators
- chosen to be released in a box set (recut sprue?)

Later (as all build on core CSM kit)
- Havocs
- Thousand sons
- Noise Marines
- Plague Marines

Lastly, and most crucially, I do indeed own a cat. ;)

WarsmithGarathor94
18-05-2016, 11:38
Plague marines don't have a plastic kit

WarsmithGarathor94
18-05-2016, 11:41
Not to mention that I think the return of a who one Kai gun per army is unlikely to shift chaos into the mystical *whispers it in awe* upper tier of made up competitive rankings that constantly shift.

Why would kat guns have to be one per army? If tau can get some of their only one per army weapons shifted to regular weapons why can't chaos

blackcherry
18-05-2016, 12:09
Why would a kai gun have to be one per army? If tau can get some of their only one per army weapons shifted to regular weapons why can't chaos

Corrected.

I was merely pointing out that your talk of kai guns (in the sense of multiple versions of them) never existed in the force like your statement inferred they did. I could have gone into the many, many other misappropriations of things and how things were back in the day, but I get the feeling from your posts over the past few months that you never actually played Chaos during the 3.5 codex and are merely parroting internet hyperbole of the worst kind. So it would be fruitless trying.

So instead, lets discuss what this is about. Why the overplayed rage? What is the underlying cause after you strip away the cover? Are you actually andy kaufman for the internet age?

Won't you take a seat?

227810

malisteen
18-05-2016, 13:11
I think cult marines could probably be reasonably covered by a multi-kit with chosen, or perhaps upgrade kits.

Sureshot05
18-05-2016, 13:38
Why would kat guns have to be one per army? If tau can get some of their only one per army weapons shifted to regular weapons why can't chaos

Good point! Fixed it in the post. I'd say that puts them in the same leagues as the other cults (ignoring berserkers). At some point I'll have to get round to added a few to my army...

Daenerys Targaryen
18-05-2016, 15:24
I'm actually quite pleased by this news. GW must be thinking about releasing a new CSM kit soon. It would be great to see the basci CSM updated along the lines of Dark Vengence but with multicomponent interchangability. The current (no longer available) CSM kit did have a few special weapons, a heavy bolter, and all the icons and space on the sprues.

And with the CSM kit updated, GW can finally decided what they want to do about cult troops and havocs. Berserkers have a plastic kit (giant hands aside, it is quite servicable), and the terminators are fine, so in terms of core iconic models the CSM range would get a major revamp for what could be a couple of releases.

I think this list has far too many demands, and realistically is too much down to personal preference.

- Chaos Space Marines - Yes
- Terminators - No kit is good and sevicable. Interchanges with Chaos lord and quite customisable.
- Chosen - Kit is missing except for Dark Vengence.
- Havocs - Needs basic CSM.
- Berserkers - Unlikely. It is a niche in the CSM playerset. More likely to be in several years time when they reconsider Khorne and daemonkin.
- Noise Marines - Likely due to resin components, needs basic CSM addressing.
- Plaguemarines - Likely due to resin components, needs basic CSM addressing.
- Cultists - These are available and quite new. You can get them in multiple formats.
- Possessed - Again a modern kit which is great looking imo. Its too low a priority.
- Oblits/Mutilators - Plastic kit for these must be ready. Why else release the rules for mutilators in the first place.
- Rhino w/unique variant - Space marines haven't had this revisited so CSM won't.
- Land Raider w/unique variant - Space marines haven't had this revisited so CSM won't.
- Predator w/unique variant - Space marines haven't had this revisited so CSM won't.
- Defiler that doesn't look like it came out of a Happy Meal... - Again personal preference. I prefer the defiler over all the other daemon engines for looking like a machine, rather than a metal dinosaur. It is also the base kit of the soul grinder and that doesn't need updating.

So to summarise:
- CSM
- Oblit/Mutilators
- chosen to be released in a box set (recut sprue?)

Later (as all build on core CSM kit)
- Havocs
- Thousand sons
- Noise Marines
- Plague Marines

Lastly, and most crucially, I do indeed own a cat. ;)
- CSM's: so ancient and missing so many options it's stopped being funny

- Terminators: missing over half their basic options... sure, the kit looks solid, but you get 1 combi-melta + flamer, 2 power fists/chainfists, only 3 power weapons/combi-bolters, no lightning claws, no combi-plasmas... Yeah, that's a first-rate keeper of a kit! >.<

- Havocs: besides the fact that Loyalists have had two plastic kits, while we're still spending nearly $300 for 4 autocannons... It should be on the same level as the current Devs kit; 2 of each possible heavy weapon, champion options, etc..

- Cults: each deserves their own separate kit. And we have solid rumors of new 1ksons coming later this year.
And some command options would be really nice, and enough Chainaxes for the entire squad would be a nifty thing for 'Zerkers... (who are so old now they're actually from a previous millennium!)

- Cultists: have no command or upgrades of any kind in their kit. 5 mono-pose models repeated a few times + an existing clampack AC isn't a proper kit.

- Possessed: are listed as "sold out" on the webstore.

- Oblits/Muties: are a no-brainer for combi-kit status. (and hopefully get bulked up to Centurion size!)

- Chaos Rhino/Land Raider: Loyalists get Razorbacks & 4-5+ variants of Land Raiders. (I've honestly lost count) Why is it so criminal of Chaos players to want just a single variant of our own? Oh, and is it too much to ask for a Land Raider that actually functions on a basic level?

- Chaos Pred: some infernal Chaosy ammo upgrade in it's rules would at least be nice...

- Deflier: the kit is ancient, and like almost every other kit in the CSM range, looks goofy and out of place. Even the newer Tau stuff looks more menacing!


After a decade plus of neglect, we deserve this level of overhaul.

Maidel
18-05-2016, 17:21
Why would a chaos only rhino or land raider make any sense? The only thing I can think of is a possessed version, but a standardised variant not available to normal marines just wouldn't make sense in the fluff.

A completely different infernal vehicle (like defilers or hellchickens) would make sense.

Casper Hawser
18-05-2016, 17:25
Actually technically chaos did unless your saying they had it before chaos got chaos armour :p
But then again I'd like to see chaos power armour give some kind of invun save in addition to the 3+ armour as I feel well if gw wants to make chaos different from space marines stop focusing the codex on renegades and focus it on the legions and those chapters who have turned traitor more than 500 years ago who are full blown traitor marines

Chaos armour was only power armour blessed by Khorne and you only got it through mark of Khorne.
And a 2up armour sv in 2nd edition wasn't that special.
I was surprised that flesh metal wasn't made available to character's in last codex hopefully that will change.

A.T.
18-05-2016, 17:33
But then again I'd like to see chaos power armour give some kind of invun save in addition to the 3+ armour as I feel well if gw wants to make chaos different from space marinesPerhaps a 6+ invulnerable save, drop the basic CSM cost by a point and let the units take two specials regardless of size.
Adamantine will too (warp and all), and perhaps a once per game 'blessings of chaos' to get something like preferred enemy for a phase?

That would make them stand out.

Daenerys Targaryen
18-05-2016, 17:36
Why would a chaos only rhino or land raider make any sense? The only thing I can think of is a possessed version, but a standardised variant not available to normal marines just wouldn't make sense in the fluff.

A completely different infernal vehicle (like defilers or hellchickens) would make sense.
- it's one way to help further differentiate Chaos vs. Loyalist, instead of Chaos simply being, 'Marine with spikes, but worse off in every way imaginable'.

- surely to god, the Warpsmiths & Dark Mech haven't simply been sitting idle for 10,000 years, and never once tinkering with their ancient wargear?

What is so offensive about a 'Chaos Land Raider' that's removed its lascannons for Reaper autocannons & it's heavy bolter for a giant flame thrower or other weaponry?
If Loyalists get Razorbacks to better support their tactically flexible squads, why is it so apparnently criminal of CSMs to get a Rhino that's been turned into a better assault boat?

Daemon engines are a way to supplement our firepower, without simply giving us Thunderfire cannons/AA tanks/Whirlwinds/Land Speeders/etc... but 'with spikes and evil'.

They don't address the basic lack of any functional delivery system for our many, many assault based units, of which we currently have none!

A.T.
18-05-2016, 17:55
- it's one way to help further differentiate Chaos vs. LoyalistYet another landraider is differentiation?

What about the classics - death wheels, decimators, cauldrons of blood, death dealers, doom blasters, tower of skulls, skull cannons, blood thrones, silver towers, doom wings, the various hell-knights, plague towers, plague reapers, etc.

Some excellent apoc formation ideas that could do with being converted over too, the slaughterfiend bloodpack with berzerkers clinging to charging defilers for instance, dreadclaws coming down amidst an orbital bombardment, the doomsday device...

Herkamer63
18-05-2016, 19:27
If I were to take a swing at it, CSM will be getting a Warzone book treatment. Which would mean some updated rules, models (greater daemons could go in there), new stuff, and updated fluff (a moving forward of the storyline). Otherwise, no, they're not being squatted, so unhinge your innards and relax.

2DSick
18-05-2016, 19:46
[it strikes me as odd that they haven't just knocked up 4 single upgrade sprues for each of the cults. Would help them get more mileage out of the csm box.

Just the sort if thing that could be sold separately for a fortune

deathrain-commander
18-05-2016, 20:24
Extremely ppwerful formations where? If anything they are extremely restrictive
@ MajorWesJanson well they could make hades auto cannons AP3 or 2 and allow all squads to take them allow all squads to take ectoplasma weapons

Black Legion: Cyclopia Cabal is extremely powerful under a lot of circumstances, or hell, just the fact that it allows a CSM player to take more than 1 Sorcerer per HQ slot, Daemon Engine pack is pretty nasty, The Bringers of Despair is extremely simple and nicely useful.

Crimson Slaughter: The Ravagers and Disciples of Mannon are both extremely easy to take and not bad in their own right. Cult of Slaughter is fairly easy to take (a Dark Apostle and 2 units of Cultists minimum? Easy) and very useful under...well any circumstances (any formations that not only boost the LD of your meatshields but let them come back from the dead, is pretty brutal). And even if the formations are the worst formations to ever exist (which they are demonstrably not), this is still way more support than Sisters or even Dark Eldar have gotten.


Perhaps a 6+ invulnerable save, drop the basic CSM cost by a point and let the units take two specials regardless of size.
Adamantine will too (warp and all), and perhaps a once per game 'blessings of chaos' to get something like preferred enemy for a phase?

That would make them stand out.

I just wanted to give this post some love, because I love some lethal sarcasm.

Daenerys Targaryen
18-05-2016, 21:43
Yet another landraider is differentiation?

What about the classics - death wheels, decimators, cauldrons of blood, death dealers, doom blasters, tower of skulls, skull cannons, blood thrones, silver towers, doom wings, the various hell-knights, plague towers, plague reapers, etc.

Some excellent apoc formation ideas that could do with being converted over too, the slaughterfiend bloodpack with berzerkers clinging to charging defilers for instance, dreadclaws coming down amidst an orbital bombardment, the doomsday device...
We desperately need viable delivery methods. Rhinos/Land Raider variants and/or re-working of their rules are the simplest solution. If GW can find a way to make Daemon engines do the same, without looking pants-on-head stupid, then great.

But seriously, we need delivery methods that the core rules support... Rhino Rush assaults died in 5th edition. They're not even playable since 6th edition!

Maidel
18-05-2016, 21:58
- it's one way to help further differentiate Chaos vs. Loyalist, instead of Chaos simply being, 'Marine with spikes, but worse off in every way imaginable'.

- surely to god, the Warpsmiths & Dark Mech haven't simply been sitting idle for 10,000 years, and never once tinkering with their ancient wargear?

What is so offensive about a 'Chaos Land Raider' that's removed its lascannons for Reaper autocannons & it's heavy bolter for a giant flame thrower or other weaponry?
If Loyalists get Razorbacks to better support their tactically flexible squads, why is it so apparnently criminal of CSMs to get a Rhino that's been turned into a better assault boat?

Daemon engines are a way to supplement our firepower, without simply giving us Thunderfire cannons/AA tanks/Whirlwinds/Land Speeders/etc... but 'with spikes and evil'.

They don't address the basic lack of any functional delivery system for our many, many assault based units, of which we currently have none!

For me background trumps rules, what you are asking doesn't make a lot of sense with how the fluff is shown.

Firstly 10,000 years hasn't been 10,000 years for those in the eye, it's mostly been shorter.

Secondly, most of the chaos shown in the more recent codexes are renegades rather than legions, so frankly give them Razorbacks. Why differentiate when it actually makes more sense to give them the same tools. It's not like renegades said 'quick, take the rhinos, but leave the Razorbacks, we aren't allowed them!'

Thirdly, id give them something that's completely different. Why not have demonic teleports, demon transport engines or heck, give them stormbirds it actually fits the background!

Losing Command
18-05-2016, 22:58
CSM should probably be focussed around the fusion between mechanical, marines and chaos (you know ... chaos marines) rather than coming up with tons of alternatice patterns for STC constructs like Rhino's and Landraiders.
The problem seems to be that lately GW seems to think chaos = randomise everything!!!one1!! and not so much the scary and corrupting part.

blackcherry
19-05-2016, 10:18
[it strikes me as odd that they haven't just knocked up 4 single upgrade sprues for each of the cults. Would help them get more mileage out of the csm box.

Just the sort if thing that could be sold separately for a fortune

The Thousand Sons and Emperors Children boxed sets are just that really, though I always did wonder why they didn't sell them separately.

WarsmithGarathor94
19-05-2016, 11:01
One thing I would like to see gw do is split the csm book into 2
One book for the warbands of the traitor legions
The other for Renegades
Would actually mean you don't have to choose between focusing the codex on one or the other then

GreySeerZ
19-05-2016, 12:21
Totally sympathize with the CSM players who want more. Not sure why they receive so much hate from others. As a player of Dark Eldar and Orks, I feel your pain, as far as gameplay goes. It's hard to feel like a true enemy of the imperium these days. It turns out their biggest threat is themselves, lol.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

A.T.
19-05-2016, 12:56
Not sure why they receive so much hate from othersIt's mostly poking fun at the drama and outright fabrications of a few vocal CSM players - "GW hates CSM", "CSM never get any updates", "CSM get less stuff than sisters", etc. And also the very (in character) scale of some of the demands.

The faction itself (and many of its more archaic models) certainly need updating.

Draconis
20-05-2016, 14:25
Hell, outside of FW, I'm still waiting on CSM to have basic drop pods....

Daenerys Targaryen
20-05-2016, 14:40
Hell, outside of FW, I'm still waiting on CSM to have basic drop pods....
We can't have those... God forbid we get something to stand up to Mhureeens.

Heck, we're not even allowed our Legion tactics back, as those would allow us to viably function, and we all know that CSM's are clearly meant to be the Saturday morning cartoon villain for Little Timmy's super-duper awesome Speeesh Mhureens to effortlessly bolter off the table. -.-

Lord Malorne
20-05-2016, 17:10
I think its good, makes CSM unique, why have all the things SM's have AND chaos stuff, its fine as is.

GreySeerZ
20-05-2016, 17:12
I think its good, makes CSM unique, why have all the things SM's have AND chaos stuff, its fine as is.
So let's have CSMs be unique by taking away stuff they have in the fluff? I'd much prefer they make them unique through unique rules and abilities or stat lines rather than raising their point cost and taking things away from them... lol

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Draconis
20-05-2016, 17:25
I think its good, makes CSM unique, why have all the things SM's have AND chaos stuff, its fine as is.

Well, you don't play CSM then. They ARE marines. So sure, they should still be similar. They should still have stuff they used 10,000 years ago. The tech for drop pods is not new. It's also a very basic principal. They use them all the time in the fluff, so there's no reason they shouldn't have them in game. It's straight up disgusting that CSM have half the options, and pay more points for the same stuff.

it's really simple:

CSM should have MOSTLY the same options, but at higher costs. An example would be Razerbacks. They should be identical, yet cost 5 or 10 points more because they are newer and harder to obtain through either theft, reverse engineering, or just because new converts bring them over. Yet still retain unique rules. SM get tactics, ATSKNF, etc etc while CSM have their marks and such. BUT a CSM army should lose to a SM army if built identically because that's not what they should be doing. They should be using the daemonic side of their fluff to their advantage and not just be building another marine army with spikes.

Snake Tortoise
20-05-2016, 18:12
I look forward to seeing the new CSM kit. I suspect they'll look badass


Well, you don't play CSM then. They ARE marines. So sure, they should still be similar. They should still have stuff they used 10,000 years ago. The tech for drop pods is not new. It's also a very basic principal. They use them all the time in the fluff, so there's no reason they shouldn't have them in game. It's straight up disgusting that CSM have half the options, and pay more points for the same stuff.

it's really simple:

CSM should have MOSTLY the same options, but at higher costs. An example would be Razerbacks. They should be identical, yet cost 5 or 10 points more because they are newer and harder to obtain through either theft, reverse engineering, or just because new converts bring them over. Yet still retain unique rules. SM get tactics, ATSKNF, etc etc while CSM have their marks and such. BUT a CSM army should lose to a SM army if built identically because that's not what they should be doing. They should be using the daemonic side of their fluff to their advantage and not just be building another marine army with spikes.

I see what you're saying, and while it makes sense in the fluff it shouldn't be that way on the table. I think it would be absurd to raise the points cost of rhinos just because SM have more of them- and it wouldn't be in line with anything else in the game. Wraithknights are supposed to be extremely rare, even in a faction that (in the 40k universe) is rare itself. As it is they're extremely cheap in points for what they offer

It may be the case now that an identically built CSM army loses to loyalists, but if that were intended in the rules it wouldn't be good for the game

More expensive CSM tanks which have their own special rules to compensate is another matter, sorry if that's what you meant

Draconis
20-05-2016, 18:17
I look forward to seeing the new CSM kit. I suspect they'll look badass



I see what you're saying, and while it makes sense in the fluff it shouldn't be that way on the table. I think it would be absurd to raise the points cost of rhinos just because SM have more of them- and it wouldn't be in line with anything else in the game. Wraithknights are supposed to be extremely rare, even in a faction that (in the 40k universe) is rare itself. As it is they're extremely cheap in points for what they offer

It may be the case now that an identically built CSM army loses to loyalists, but if that were intended in the rules it wouldn't be good for the game

More expensive CSM tanks which have their own special rules to compensate is another matter, sorry if that's what you meant

Sorry, that's not what I meant. All the newer models that have come into being lately, should be at a higher point cost, to represent them being rarer. Rhino's, drop pods, land raiders, all the stuff like that, all the basic stuff should stay the same. Razorbacks, ironclads, etc should be more expensive.

The point was to be that if you built a loyalist marine list using the CSM codex, then you're not doing what is intended, and it's going to cost you. Obviously nobody would, but it at least gives CSM options.

malisteen
20-05-2016, 21:48
I think its good, makes CSM unique, why have all the things SM's have AND chaos stuff, its fine as is.

Legion rules made CSMs unique - now loyalists have them and we don't. Skullcrushers made CSMs unique - now space wolves have them and we don't. Obliterators and Mutilators were unique to CSMs - now loyalists have better versions of both. Possessed? Not only do space wolves have them, their version is actually playable.

So it's ok for loyalist factions to get Chaos stuff, but it's crossing the line to let CSMs have options like drop pods that have been present in their fluff since forever?

Maidel
20-05-2016, 22:41
Is anyone saying that's not true?

Daenerys Targaryen
20-05-2016, 22:42
Legion rules made CSMs unique - now loyalists have them and we don't. Skullcrushers made CSMs unique - now space wolves have them and we don't. Obliterators and Mutilators were unique to CSMs - now loyalists have better versions of both. Possessed? Not only do space wolves have them, their version is actually playable.

So it's ok for loyalist factions to get Chaos stuff, but it's crossing the line to let CSMs have options like drop pods that have been present in their fluff since forever?
Yes. Because we're the Saturday morning cartoon villain, and we're supposed to be nothing more than a nonsensical buffoon who twirls their mustache and shouts "curses! foiled again!" whenever Little Timmy's Speeesh Muhreens show up to win the day.

At least, that's how a goodly number of Loyalist players enjoy it, because in the fluff, Muhreens are unbeatable titans and should always win.

Maidel
20-05-2016, 22:56
Having said that I agree with the statement above, I do have to point out that it still smacks of min-maxing.

Yes space wolves have wulfen (possessed) and space marines have centurions (obilts) the chaos players are still complaining that they don't have all the best bits of 4 codexes in their one codex.

This doesn't mean I don't agree that there are problems with the ancient codex and sub par miniatures, however what people are complaining they don't have is unreasonable.

Ssilmath
20-05-2016, 23:53
So, a bit of speculation on my part...

The basic Chaos Marine box has been up and down a few times over the last couple of weeks. Combined with a rumor that some stores are sending certain items back, it seems that they are trying to shift as many as possible through the webstore before gathering up more and making them available again. Other kits that are down are the single biker, biker upgrade, a few shoulder pad and the old Sorcerer. The other kit that is down, and the one that is more telling to me, is the Possessed kit.

Second, looking at how the Space Wolf formations was handled, and how Angels of Death had both Chapter Tactics and formation rules both, an entire codex redo is not needed to introduce a decurion style formation for a single faction of Chaos, just a few general formations, some special ones (Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion both have their own) and some rules to go alongside some subfaction specific formations.

Looking at recent chaos trends, Possessed are seem to be pushed as an emblematic unit of Chaos, and the current (out of stock) kit is based on the previous CSM kit. In order to keep compatibility and a unified aesthetic, it makes sense to me that the kit would be replaced alongside the basic kit. The CSM kit can make (In the short term) CSM, Havocs and Chosen. An upgrade pack similar to the current Space Marines chapter packs (Helmets, shoulders, maybe some weapons) would be an easy way to do cult and legion troops. Couple to this the rumours of Battle of the Fang coming after summer, and I think they're going to start with Thousand Sons, and maybe Black Legion.

So, my prediction? Basic CSM kit, done in Dark Vengeance style. (If this happens and you still want to start Chaos, Kakapo, send me a message. I have enough bits to do damn near 50, if you can scrounge legs and torso backs) Possessed designed to fit the basic CSM kit, maybe Havocs and Chosen kits as well. Upgrade kits for Thousand Sons and Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter don't need one. Updated rules for CSM, Rubrics, Possessed, possibly Havos or Chosen if those kits come out. Generic formations, generic Decurion, Thousand Sons decurion.

Will it happen? Maybe. Will it please everybody, or make Chaos suddenly powerful? Probably not. But I hope it at least makes (or keeps, in my case) the army fun and fluffy.

Daenerys Targaryen
21-05-2016, 01:21
*sigh* Thousand Sons are NOT being reduced to a simply upgrade sprue... Both Sad Panda & Lady Atia - the two current most trustworthy rumor mongers, have both said outright, that new plastic 1kSons are on the way.
Especially when Panda says something's happening, it's as close to a definite bet as we have nowadays when it comes to GW releases.

As for other kits? Panda has said no Chaos overhaul this year.
Havocs & Chosen most certainly need their own full plastic kits. Especially Havocs, who also badly need some new weapon options as well, since even most basic Troop units out-shoot them these days!
I'd rather see us get a proper Terminator kit before Possessed, but knowing GW, they probably don't see anything wrong with a non-Smurf kit that's missing more than half its basic options, and can't even build a legal bare bones standard squad out of said box. >.<

Ssilmath
21-05-2016, 01:43
You may have noticed (Or not, since careful reading is not your strong suit) that I didn't mention an overhaul of Chaos, just a couple of themed patches and something to push CSM and Possessed.

But since you think Havos are outshot by basic troops, I'm not sure that your reality overlaps with my own...or anybody else, for that matter.

GreySeerZ
21-05-2016, 01:47
I don't know why you guys are at each other's throats. 8th will drop in 2017 and 40K will be Age of Emperorized. Anything between now and then is just wasting space.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Daenerys Targaryen
21-05-2016, 02:18
You may have noticed (Or not, since careful reading is not your strong suit) that I didn't mention an overhaul of Chaos, just a couple of themed patches and something to push CSM and Possessed.

But since you think Havos are outshot by basic troops, I'm not sure that your reality overlaps with my own...or anybody else, for that matter.
Oooooooh! How amazing - 8/S7 shots from a dedicated shooting unit... I can just imagine how every opponent now is going to be crying foul at those OP Havocs.

On the other hand, between Tesla/Grav gun + Cannon/Shuricatapults/Splinter weapons/Pule rifles/basic Shootas/FRFSRF... my Havocs can only dream of what such firepower is like.
You know what? It's almost as if our same old 3rd edition weaponry has been left behind by everyone else and their updated rules & wargear options.

Kakapo42
21-05-2016, 02:21
(If this happens and you still want to start Chaos, Kakapo, send me a message. I have enough bits to do damn near 50, if you can scrounge legs and torso backs)

Thanks. :) Sourcing legs and backpacks might be difficult (not to mention the extra Night Lords conversion bits), and even then that would still leave other things like Bikers and Havocs and Chosen to find as well (basic Chaos Space Marines aren't the only old kit from that range I like), but I'll keep it in mind. The real test will probably be whether or not this guy (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99060102082_NightLordHeroNEW_01.jpg) is still available when the time comes - that model and the current basic Chaos Space Marine models are what I'd be wanting to base the army around, with other 2000s era models supporting it (and basically nothing released since 6th edition).

But again, thanks. :)


Especially Havocs, who also badly need some new weapon options as well, since even most basic Troop units out-shoot them these days!

What basic troops units are these? As far as I am aware Havocs generally pack a lot more heavy weapons than pretty much any basic troop unit, which generally have their special and heavy weapon number capped at 1 of each (compared to the Havocs' 4). About the only units I can think of that would have more firepower are Firewarriors and maybe Guardians, Dire Avengers and Immortals, and they have sizeable drawbacks (being incapable of close-combating their way out of a paper bag, short range and high in points respectively), and even then the Havocs generally have either longer range or greater hitting power (strength and AP) compared to any of them. I guess there are Eldar Jetbikes, but I'd consider them to be an outlier since they are widely considered to be far too powerful at the moment.

Ssilmath
21-05-2016, 02:34
Thanks. :) Sourcing legs and backpacks might be difficult (not to mention the extra Night Lords conversion bits), and even then that would still leave other things like Bikers and Havocs and Chosen to find as well (basic Chaos Space Marines aren't the only old kit from that range I like), but I'll keep it in mind. The real test will probably be whether or not this guy (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99060102082_NightLordHeroNEW_01.jpg) is still available when the time comes - that model and the current basic Chaos Space Marine models are what I'd be wanting to base the army around, with other 2000s era models supporting it (and basically nothing released since 6th edition).

But again, thanks. :)

Depending on how good you are with casting and/or molds, you could make the legs and torso backs (not backpacks, but only have about 20 of those). But if it's Night Lords you want, I have about 2500 points of them that I've been considering selling. Among them is the Lord you are looking for as well as some unused upgrade kits. They're mostly painted, so if you want to strip them you can, or I can finish them. Either way, keep that in mind if you ever do reach that point. I personally prefer the new aesthetic, but it's not for everyone.

Lord Malorne
21-05-2016, 02:36
If you are going by fluff then you will rarely see an actual CSM army, most of the lore and books I read have a squad or two at most unless its a major apocalypse sized invasion force, its mostly supplemented by lost and the damned and maybe daemons at what we would consider 'normal sized' forces (That is, game/lore strike forces, patrols etc), I could continue but I don't want to, justifying rules strictly and only from lore is a slippery slope and far too open to abuse/conjecture/rampant wishlisting.

Paying a small tax to use new units is bizarre, a renegade force would have them, if a renegade force does they most likely are still adhering to their old combat doctrines so using them as space marines (no matter how you rage against it) makes sense, older traitor forces will continue to fight war the way they always have been, they do not live those 10,000 years, time warps, from some the siege of terror was years ago, other perhaps centuries, no reported instance (I am aware of) of any CSM having actually lived for millenia, so basically they would continue as is.

CSM are not SM yet too many CSM players are shaking their fists and forever comparing it to the SM book, don't, you live in a vacuum, there is no SM codex, look at yours as a standalone, build your army and play games, don't fixate and stress over paying 10pts for something here or there that a totally different army pays less for. I've had several CSM armies, emperors children, death guard and a large black legion force, using the mixed units of the CSM forces and playing it differently, it is not meant to be played like a space marine force plus demonic gifts and treats, that would/is just silly.

Daenerys Targaryen
21-05-2016, 03:02
What makes 0 sense from a background perspective, is that Iron Warriors have suddenly lost all interest in siege craft, Night Lords consider terror tactics pointless, Word Bearers decided that faith in the Gods wasn't for them, and Alpha Legion are now too lazy to properly infiltrate & outmaneuver their opponents...

malisteen
21-05-2016, 04:37
Yeah, but it also doesnt make sense for heresy era dudes to make up the common line grunts. I wouldnt object to army wide legion rules, but imo legion themed vet skills for elites and characters would be a better way to go.

As for getting updated as one of the first books of 8th edition? I positively dread it. 8th is said to be built with the idea of toning down and simplifying, which will likely mean a book with fewer and weaker options and special rules, one that wont stand up to earlier books. Everyone will say 'wait for the rest to get updated to match', but t b ey never will, because after 2 or 3 duds, gw will remember that nobody likes being 'toned down', and nobody rushes out t o buy units for bad and boring books, so the power scale will creep up real fast and we'll be stuck with another dud for two more editions.

We've seen this happen before, repeatedly, to dark angels, to ourselves.

MajorWesJanson
21-05-2016, 05:16
What makes 0 sense from a background perspective, is that Iron Warriors have suddenly lost all interest in siege craft, Night Lords consider terror tactics pointless, Word Bearers decided that faith in the Gods wasn't for them, and Alpha Legion are now too lazy to properly infiltrate & outmaneuver their opponents...

If you actually want equal treatment for Chaos MArines to loyalists, you are going about it all the wrong way. Instead of ridiculous complaints about how unfair it is that one CSM codex can't compare to the 5 different books that SMs have (oh, 5 codices result in more different special and heavy weapons overall!) You ought to be pushing for the legions to be split out into their own codices.
Remove the current CSM and Daemons codices. Go old school and god specific- Take the Khorne daemonkin book, and add more World Eaters specific stuff. Do a Slaanesh, Nurgle, and Tzeentch book that includes the specific daemons and Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons respectively.

After those 4 books, have a Legions of chaos book that is Black Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers. Include the troop daemon choices and daemon princes, but none of the elite daemons or Greater Daemons. Like the GK book, have more elite troops as the baseline- Chosen and Terminators as the mainline Troops, Cult marines as Elite only.

Then a Renegades of Chaos that covers Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter, and Alpha Legion. Sort of like the CSM codex now- basic CSM and cultists, with chosen and terminators as elites. Basically the current CSM codex with some of the cult units removed, and a bit more imperial stuff like razorbacks and drop pods added.

If you are going to complain about chaos, avoid the stupid (basic troops can outshoot our havocs!) and be ambitious and creative instead.


Yeah, but it also doesnt make sense for heresy era dudes to make up the common line grunts. I wouldnt object to army wide legion rules, but imo legion themed vet skills for elites and characters would be a better way to go.

As for getting updated as one of the first books of 8th edition? I positively dread it. 8th is said to be built with the idea of toning down and simplifying, which will likely mean a book with fewer and weaker options and special rules, one that wont stand up to earlier books. Everyone will say 'wait for the rest to get updated to match', but t b ey never will, because after 2 or 3 duds, gw will remember that nobody likes being 'toned down', and nobody rushes out t o buy units for bad and boring books, so the power scale will creep up real fast and we'll be stuck with another dud for two more editions.

We've seen this happen before, repeatedly, to dark angels, to ourselves.

Hopefully that if 8th is a semi-major revamp, we will get 3rd edition style printed or PDF updates for all the armies to bring them all into line.

Maidel
21-05-2016, 07:35
There is no way chaos will get 5 codexes.

Lord Damocles
21-05-2016, 10:50
Skullcrushers made CSMs unique - now space wolves have them and we don't.
Chaos Marines have never had Skullcrushers (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Khorne-Bloodbound-Mighty-Skullcrushers).

If you mean that for one edition you could take a unit of Chosen, upgrade them all to champions, give them all Mark of Khorne, and then give them all Juggernaughts, then you can effectively still do that by taking a bunch of Lords with Juggernaughts.



Legion rules made CSMs unique - now loyalists have them and we don't.
Loyalists got special rules for painting them particular colours first, so Chaos Marines getting the same hardly represented uniqueness.

Stop appropriating Loyalist culture rules!

A.T.
21-05-2016, 10:50
There is no way chaos will get 5 codexes.Four daemonkin books have never been out of the question.

MajorWesJanson
21-05-2016, 11:55
There is no way chaos will get 5 codexes.

Chaos already has 3, and GW has been adding factions like crazy.

ObiWayneKenobi
21-05-2016, 15:11
I can go into this more when I'm not stuck using my phone, but I think what Chaos needs is some 30k esque weaponry. Retcon the stuff about it breaking down and make them feel like a 30k/40k hybrid with daemons to season. Make them really feel like an ancient evil from 10,000 years ago, twisted and corrupted and thoroughly evil.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Maidel
21-05-2016, 15:22
Chaos already has 3, and GW has been adding factions like crazy.


It has 3, sort of.

It has 2 and 1 that is a combination/sort of replacement for the khorne side of chaos.

My point was more that 8th edition is widely rumoured to be out next year, there is no way they will release 4 new codexes in that time period (thousand sons, emp children, death guard and renegades).

And when 8th rolls round it will obviously be space marines that are redone first, because they always have to be special. That means unless they do a year of chaos this couldn't realistically happen until 2018.

malisteen
21-05-2016, 16:36
Chaos Marines have never had Skullcrushers (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Khorne-Bloodbound-Mighty-Skullcrushers).

We had zerks on juggernauts as a unit before 3.5. They weren't called skullcrushers, they were just called juggernauts, but that's what the juggernaut unit was before that. juggs ridden by power armored khorne marines, not bloodletters.

Fangschrecken
21-05-2016, 16:38
They could still get legion rules ala chapter tactics. That could be a quick fix. It wouldn't be detailed enough for most Choas players but it'd be a step in the right direction and wit ha couple campaign books with expanded detachments and such for legions it could work.

WarsmithGarathor94
21-05-2016, 21:44
Personally id sooner our codex focussed on having our units being more expensive but far more dangerous than their loyalist equivalent

WarsmithGarathor94
21-05-2016, 23:19
Ok so having thought about it what about say making our troops kinda meh but then make up for it by having our elites and hqs really nasty ? Havocs would become a elite choice and basically be a veteran devastator squad

Lord Malorne
21-05-2016, 23:27
Can't do any of this, just have to wait and see what comes out ^^

Maidel
21-05-2016, 23:31
Ok so having thought about it what about say making our troops kinda meh but then make up for it by having our elites and hqs really nasty ? Havocs would become a elite choice and basically be a veteran devastator squad
Reminds me of what they did with the old 'eye of terror' code cans the space wolves 13th company. Everyone was a veteran.

Des702
23-05-2016, 07:07
Unless I am mistaken, Chaos has 5 ish books right now. One daemons (not really csm but kinda) crimson slaughter, black legion, khorne daemon kin, and the base codex.

And from the multitude of comments here there really is no consensus of how to do the csm justice. And if you guys get legion specific books the next us treadheads will want that. And that would become insane army bloat.

I think the best solution would be the chapter tactics solution for you guys and doctrines for ig. That way we reduce the number of books and the different factions get at least partially represented.

Sorry if this has been a bit disjointed. I am writing this on my phone.

WarsmithGarathor94
23-05-2016, 09:38
Can't do any of this, just have to wait and see what comes out ^^

Then im sorry but if gw refuse to give us chapter tactics again they have lost me as a chaos player in 40k

WarsmithGarathor94
23-05-2016, 09:39
Unless I am mistaken, Chaos has 5 ish books right now. One daemons (not really csm but kinda) crimson slaughter, black legion, khorne daemon kin, and the base codex.

And from the multitude of comments here there really is no consensus of how to do the csm justice. And if you guys get legion specific books the next us treadheads will want that. And that would become insane army bloat.

I think the best solution would be the chapter tactics solution for you guys and doctrines for ig. That way we reduce the number of books and the different factions get at least partially represented.

Sorry if this has been a bit disjointed. I am writing this on my phone.

We need more than chapter tactics we need legion specific units etc

Lord Malorne
23-05-2016, 09:50
Best to just to wait and see, some interesting releases this past few months and certainly moving away from core codexes, none for a while now, and choices are lot more open than they were before, i've played since 3rd ed and the options now are vastly superior to to every previous edition, I have faith.


Then im sorry but if gw refuse to give us chapter tactics again they have lost me as a chaos player in 40k

I'm sure things will continue on.

Casper Hawser
23-05-2016, 11:53
We need more than chapter tactics we need legion specific units etc

You need to play Horus Heresy if you want legion specific units and legion specific rules. It's all there in the red books.

Daenerys Targaryen
23-05-2016, 13:26
You need to play Horus Heresy if you want legion specific units and legion specific rules. It's all there in the red books.
We need a Legion based versions of Chapter Tactics because that's what allows Loyalist Marines to viably function in the game...

While people may not like it, the truth is that Chaos Marines are still at their core, Space Marines, with all the inherent flaws that comes with being an elite generalist, heavy infantry force. Chapter Tactics, Combat Tactics, ATSKNF are all additional rules added to Loyalists as it not only gives them flavour, but also some additional boosts in order to help them function in a game that actively punishes generalisation vs. specialisation.
Just dropping the pts across the board won't work for CSM's, as by the time you make everything cheap enough to reflect the serious lack of wargear, delivery methods, and over generalisation in general, you end up turning what's supposed to be an elite heavy infantry force, into a faceless hoard.

Give Chaos back our Legion Traits, and not only do we get a return of the uniqueness between Word Bearers vs. Iron Warriors vs. Night Lords, etc...
And I dare say, there's a helluva lot more character & differences between the various undivided Legion warbands, than there are between the various Chapters that all follow the same *********** codex with a couple minor deviances!

Loyalist87
23-05-2016, 13:29
Cult Marine options for Chosen, Terminators, Biker & Havocs...

Casper Hawser
23-05-2016, 15:34
We need a Legion based versions of Chapter Tactics because that's what allows Loyalist Marines to viably function in the game...

While people may not like it, the truth is that Chaos Marines are still at their core, Space Marines, with all the inherent flaws that comes with being an elite generalist, heavy infantry force. Chapter Tactics, Combat Tactics, ATSKNF are all additional rules added to Loyalists as it not only gives them flavour, but also some additional boosts in order to help them function in a game that actively punishes generalisation vs. specialisation.
Just dropping the pts across the board won't work for CSM's, as by the time you make everything cheap enough to reflect the serious lack of wargear, delivery methods, and over generalisation in general, you end up turning what's supposed to be an elite heavy infantry force, into a faceless hoard.

Give Chaos back our Legion Traits, and not only do we get a return of the uniqueness between Word Bearers vs. Iron Warriors vs. Night Lords, etc...
And I dare say, there's a helluva lot more character & differences between the various undivided Legion warbands, than there are between the various Chapters that all follow the same *********** codex with a couple minor deviances!

You mean you want Legion Tactics not that we need them. I didn't start playing til the beginning of 5th so I've never experienced having legion tactics so I don't miss them. As times gone on I've played 2nd with a group of friends and guess what they didn't have legion tactics then either your basing all your argument on one codex that was considered as overpowered as it was fluffy. In my opinion you will only be happy once you have something as overpowered as the Eldar do at the moment.

Draconis
23-05-2016, 15:43
You mean you want Legion Tactics not that we need them. I didn't start playing til the beginning of 5th so I've never experienced having legion tactics so I don't miss them. As times gone on I've played 2nd with a group of friends and guess what they didn't have legion tactics then either your basing all your argument on one codex that was considered as overpowered as it was fluffy. In my opinion you will only be happy once you have something as overpowered as the Eldar do at the moment.

And imo, you're making assumptions based on nothing. There's zero reasons why CSM chapters should not have legion tactics. From either a game play perspective, or a fluff one. Did they suddenly just forget everything they did for thousands of years?

A.T.
23-05-2016, 16:32
Give Chaos back our Legion Traits, and not only do we get a return of the uniqueness between Word Bearers vs. Iron Warriors vs. Night Lords, etc...Somewhat ironically the 6e chaos codex gives you the key benefits of those three legions (and the alpha legion) freely and without restriction.

Word Bearers - demagogue / crozius - AKA the 6e Dark Apostle
Iron Warriors - could take more than one unit of oblits
Night Lords - could take more than one unit of raptors
Alpha Legion - could take cultists
Black Legion - sweet FA
World Eaters/Death Guard/Emperors Children/Thousand Sons - free aspiring champion in cult units

Daenerys Targaryen
23-05-2016, 16:33
You mean you want Legion Tactics not that we need them. I didn't start playing til the beginning of 5th so I've never experienced having legion tactics so I don't miss them. As times gone on I've played 2nd with a group of friends and guess what they didn't have legion tactics then either your basing all your argument on one codex that was considered as overpowered as it was fluffy. In my opinion you will only be happy once you have something as overpowered as the Eldar do at the moment.
Way to completely miss the point... Also, way to assume that the game itself plays almost exactly the same as it did 20+ years ago! I mean, it's not like weapons have become deadlier, or rates of fire haven't increased at all... Or that there's been entirely new armies added to the mix, and assault obviously hasn't taken a back seat to shooting by a country mile!

But clearly, Chaos Marines have absolutely nothing in common with basic Space Marines, and clearly their being left 3 entire editions behind the game and everyone else means that Chaos players just clearly need to L2P/GitGud.
Yes, it's obviously so clear that all I am is a filthy, WaaC's ****** who just wants a perfect win record, because there's no other reason that an army which at its core is still a Space Marine army needs the same rules treatment that every other Marine army in the game gets.

Fangschrecken
23-05-2016, 16:36
And imo, you're making assumptions based on nothing. There's zero reasons why CSM chapters should not have legion tactics. From either a game play perspective, or a fluff one. Did they suddenly just forget everything they did for thousands of years?

Right, and even if these aren't legionnaires from the Heresy they can still operate along a preferred tactical system. I mean, most loyalist space marines haven't been around more than 10-20 years and yet they can still learn to ride a bike better or be stealthy before the battle.

What I'd love to see is a big chaos book with legion rules that affect the marines and their vehicles and then daemons, cultists, daemon engines, dark mechanicum, and some corrupted xenos who would get rules and bonus from unit to unit to represent them not being part of the legion/warband. If GW isn't going to make a serious attempt at balancing the game then why not start showing chaos some love and give us all sorts of random and potentially useless units?

Draconis
23-05-2016, 16:46
Somewhat ironically the 6e chaos codex gives you the key benefits of those three legions (and the alpha legion) freely and without restriction.

Word Bearers - demagogue / crozius - AKA the 6e Dark Apostle
Iron Warriors - could take more than one unit of oblits
Night Lords - could take more than one unit of raptors
Alpha Legion - could take cultists
Black Legion - sweet FA
World Eaters/Death Guard/Emperors Children/Thousand Sons - free aspiring champion in cult units

Im not sure what you're getting at, none of these even resemble anything unique. And certainly not Traits.

Casper Hawser
23-05-2016, 16:47
And imo, you're making assumptions based on nothing. There's zero reasons why CSM chapters should not have legion tactics. From either a game play perspective, or a fluff one. Did they suddenly just forget everything they did for thousands of years?

Who knows what spending a lifetime or more in the warp does to their minds.
But all I was trying to say originally was the red books cover 8 of the traitor legions so there are rules for them. Unfortunately if your gaming group is to narrow minded to allow you to use them you need to find another group or carry on moaning that GW has the hatred chaos marines special rule it's all the same to me.

Draconis
23-05-2016, 16:50
Who knows what spending a lifetime or more in the warp does to their minds.
But all I was trying to say originally was the red books cover 8 of the traitor legions so there are rules for them. Unfortunately if your gaming group is to narrow minded to allow you to use them you need to find another group or carry on moaning that GW has the hatred chaos marines special rule it's all the same to me.

So your answer is to go buy a different book from an outside provider instead of fixing the problem at it's source. Even then it's still not equal as you'd have a better, bigger, and more loyal codexes vs just FW codexes. 30k is not 40k. You cant' mix and match them.

A.T.
23-05-2016, 17:05
Im not sure what you're getting at, none of these even resemble anything unique. And certainly not Traits.Those are the key identifying legion traits as taken from the 3.5 codex.

The point is that GW hasn't taken them away, rather removed the restrictions on taking them. - the legions are still in the book but without the special snowflake / paint to win appeal of a restrictive bonus ruleset.

Casper Hawser
23-05-2016, 17:19
So your answer is to go buy a different book from an outside provider instead of fixing the problem at it's source. Even then it's still not equal as you'd have a better, bigger, and more loyal codexes vs just FW codexes. 30k is not 40k. You cant' mix and match them.

Well they have GW on the spine as all GW supplements have so I don't consider them an outside source.
All I'm saying is if you want to run a chaos warband that's stuck to its old legion origins there's rules for that. If you want a space marine chapter that's just turned renegade there's rules for that using current marines codices. And if you want a warband made of a mishmash of marines that have spent a few hundred years being twisted in the warp there's rules for that. All in all where there's a will there's a way.

Draconis
23-05-2016, 19:35
Well they have GW on the spine as all GW supplements have so I don't consider them an outside source.
All I'm saying is if you want to run a chaos warband that's stuck to its old legion origins there's rules for that. If you want a space marine chapter that's just turned renegade there's rules for that using current marines codices. And if you want a warband made of a mishmash of marines that have spent a few hundred years being twisted in the warp there's rules for that. All in all where there's a will there's a way.

And my point being you shoulnd't have to use space wolves if you want to do a khorne assault heavy oriented chaos space marines book. There's nothing unique there. There's 0 reasons you should have special rules for 9 loyalist chapters and then none for the 9 traitor ones.

Lord Damocles
23-05-2016, 19:37
...you shoulnd't have to use space wolves if you want to do a khorne assault heavy oriented chaos space marines...
You don't have to use Space Wolves.

I mean, it's not like there's a whole book of assault-heavy Khorne dudes available...

Loyalist87
23-05-2016, 20:18
World Eaters/Death Guard/Emperors Children/Thousand Sons - free aspiring champion in cult units

World Eaters

+1 A for all Units
All Units get the Berserker Charge and fearless special Rule
Only Models with MoK allowed
No CSM Sorcerer, no Raptor Squad ect.

Death Guard

+1 T for all Units
Only Models with MoN allowed
All Units get the Fearless and demonic toughness special Rule
No Heavy Weapons in Squads with Power Armour
No CSM Bike Squad, no Raptor Squads ect.

Emperors Children
+1 I for all Units
All Units get the Fearless and Warpscream special rules
Sonic Weapons for all Squads
Only Models with MoS allowed
No Raptor Squad ect.

Thousand Sons
+1 LP for all non-psyker Models
All Models get the Fearless special rule
All HQ choices, Squad Leader, Termianotors and Chosen are Psyker
Only Models with MoT allowed
No Heavy or Special Weapons in CSM Squads
No CSM Bike Squad, no Raptor Squad ect.

Cult Marinesd have nio longer own choices in the AOP, they are "upgrades" for cult marines.

Black Legion
Can upgrade undivided units to cult units like Armies with the WE, DG, EC or TS legion trait.

blackcherry
23-05-2016, 20:21
You don't have to use Space Wolves.

I mean, it's not like there's a whole book of assault-heavy Khorne dudes available...

Don't use logic Lord Damocles. We're just trolling because we don't want CSM with all the Space Marine rules and extra stuff on top. For 'fluffy' reasons, of course... :shifty:

Draconis
23-05-2016, 20:25
All units are Cult Marines (get special rules; stat boosts like +1 T for Death Guard +1 Attack for World Easters ect).

Whooooo! Amazing. Such wow!

Khorne get +1 attack! Meanwhile:

Space Wolves get Rage! Counter Attack! Etc! MOAR!
Ultramarines get 3 Doctrines that affect their entire army!
White Scars get Skilled Rider, +1S on bikes, Hit and Run, re-rolling Run moves!
Fists get re-rolls on their bolter weapons and special rounds and re-rolls on armor pen plus +1 to damage on buildings and Tank Hunter!
Black Templar get Holy Crusaders and Righteous Zeal!
Iron Hands get FnP! It will not Die! +1 to their Blessing of the Omnissiah rolls!
Salamanders get FnP against flamers and re-rolls to wound with flamer weapons, plus free master crafted weapons!
Raven Guard get free Shrouded ARMY WIDE for the first turn! Free movements with their jump packs and re-rolls on Hammer of Wrath attacks!

DAMN! I'm glad we got +1 attacks or +1 toughness. That we have to pay premium for.

Loyalist87
23-05-2016, 20:33
Whooooo! Amazing. Such wow!

Khorne get +1 attack! Meanwhile:

Space Wolves get Rage! Counter Attack! Etc! MOAR!
Ultramarines get 3 Doctrines that affect their entire army!
White Scars get Skilled Rider, +1S on bikes, Hit and Run, re-rolling Run moves!
Fists get re-rolls on their bolter weapons and special rounds and re-rolls on armor pen plus +1 to damage on buildings and Tank Hunter!
Black Templar get Holy Crusaders and Righteous Zeal!
Iron Hands get FnP! It will not Die! +1 to their Blessing of the Omnissiah rolls!
Salamanders get FnP against flamers and re-rolls to wound with flamer weapons, plus free master crafted weapons!
Raven Guard get free Shrouded ARMY WIDE for the first turn! Free movements with their jump packs and re-rolls on Hammer of Wrath attacks!

DAMN! I'm glad we got +1 attacks or +1 toughness. That we have to pay premium for.


And my point being you shoulnd't have to use space wolves if you want to do a khorne assault heavy oriented chaos space marines book. There's nothing unique there. There's 0 reasons you should have special rules for 9 loyalist chapters and then none for the 9 traitor ones.

..............


All units are Cult Marines (get special rules; stat boosts like +1 T for Death Guard +1 Attack for World Easters ect).

It's a example, not the Holy Crail for Chaos Cult Legions.

Maidel
23-05-2016, 20:55
I don't mean to be funny, but I'd take +1 T over any of the other options, even if it did cost a few more points (within reason). T5 makes a hell of a difference.

Draconis
23-05-2016, 20:55
Well, it's a bad example. There's nothing really unique there. The CSM codex is an example of where GW said they were going to make everything simpler and reduce rules for the new edition and put out the CSM book, then just a couple months later, came out with the current SM book with 200 pages. It's bs.

A.T.
23-05-2016, 20:55
World Eaters
+1 A for all Units
All Units get the Berserker Charge and fearless special Rule
Only Models with MoK allowed
No CSM Sorcerer, no Raptor Squad ect.(etc) Negative ghostrider, those are the rules for the marks of chaos muddled up with the restrictions of taking a legion.

All of the bonuses you listed were available to any and all warbands on a squad by squad basis - basically exactly how it is now except that you paid per squad rather than per model and each came with a whole page of rules, wargear, and minor psychic powers (khorne excepted).

The actual World Eaters bonuses were free aspiring champions in squads of 8, and +1 to summon daemonic packs of 8 models. Those four legions were just (insert god here)-marines, the undivided legions got the special rules.



Khorne get +1 attack! Meanwhile: Space Wolves get Rage! Counter Attack! Etc! MOAR!Khorne gets Rage! Counter Attack! Wolves get counter attack and acute senses.

LotusCorgi
24-05-2016, 04:24
I always feel the need to chime in on these threads and comment on the sad shape of the chaos marine box. They are totally improbable (historically) in the 40k universe. There is a detailed chronology of marine armor evolution. The current set up of mk. IV pants and mk.VII everything else is tragic to say the best. I know I am flogging a dead horse about this but, GW, give me a break. I don't even want to play 7th (8th?) edition anymore but I don't want to use these subpar models for an older edition either. It ruins it for me. When I look at the SM marine boxed sets it ruins it for me. I've tried buying lots of mk.V pants but forge world does not sell them like that now. I've tried telling myself that they are an undocumented chaos mark that is widely used, but it doesn't help. They are what they are: a thoughtless, sub standard set.

Kakapo42
24-05-2016, 04:48
I always feel the need to chime in on these threads and comment on the sad shape of the chaos marine box. They are totally improbable (historically) in the 40k universe. There is a detailed chronology of marine armor evolution. The current set up of mk. IV pants and mk.VII everything else is tragic to say the best. I know I am flogging a dead horse about this but, GW, give me a break. I don't even want to play 7th (8th?) edition anymore but I don't want to use these subpar models for an older edition either. It ruins it for me. When I look at the SM marine boxed sets it ruins it for me. I've tried buying lots of mk.V pants but forge world does not sell them like that now. I've tried telling myself that they are an undocumented chaos mark that is widely used, but it doesn't help. They are what they are: a thoughtless, sub standard set.

A quick check on Forgeworld confirms that they sell complete suits of all Heresy-era power armour, could you not simply purchase them completely and bypass the standard Chaos Space Marine kit entirely?

This is why I don't want to see the Chaos Space Marine kit changed to be in the DV or HH style, because it's much easier for someone who wants those elements to add them through upgrade sprues and Forgeworld kits than it is for someone who doesn't want those elements to take them away from a model that has them by default. By keeping the current Chaos Space Marine kit (possibly recut to include any missing wargear options) and putting out a 'Warp Corruption' upgrade sprue with DV-style components and extra Heresy-style components (provided by Forgeworld or otherwise), all three camps - the people who like the early 2000s style, people who want historical consistency and people who like the DV style - are satisfied. Yes, it would be possible for Forgeworld to produce an early 2000s style Chaos Space Marine set, but I seriously doubt they ever would - they seem to be in the business of echoing GW's design choices and catering to HH fans and 1st/2nd edition nostalgia, not lavishly restoring early 2000s models.

I think I must be the only one who actually really likes the current Chaos Space Marine box (and other kits from it's vintage too, as well as the Bezerker box for that matter). Don't worry, I'll just go sit in the corner and think about what a horrible person and pox on the hobby I am.

deathrain-commander
24-05-2016, 06:00
People want to get fluffy? Alright, let's get fluffy.

The reason a Chaos Space Marine army wouldn't have Razorbacks and Drop Pods is pretty simple. If a Raven Guard company fights a battle and loses one of their Razorbacks (damaged beyond repair, exploded, or even just broken and unable to be retrieved) then all they need to do is call up the nearest Forge World and they'll send them a new one. I am exaggerating slightly, but the central point is true. But, if say, a Renegade Marines army loses a Razorback, what can they do? Dark Mechanicum aren't exactly helpful types, and you can't guarantee they'll have an STC for it. Gotta steal one, but that's hard to do and very risky. So, they're just gonna have to make do without.

Rhinos remain in service for as long as they do because they're cheap and easy to maintain. They're so easy to repair that they literally have the ability to repair themselves mid-battle. Razorbacks aren't, so they're gonna run out pretty quickly. Same thing applies double to Drop Pods, since they're going to be landing hard in the middle of the enemy's lines and if you lose or they get reinforcements and you have to fall back, you can't take it with you. Even an entire Chapter that goes renegade is gonna run out of those things pretty quickly. And all of that logic could definitely apply to some of the harder to maintain weapons, like Grav Weapons or similar.

As for Legion Tactics, thanks to the way Marine Chapters are set up, you can usually guarantee that everyone in one detachment is going to be from the same Chapter. But in a Chaos Marine detachment, you might have Berzerkers from World Eaters, some Raptors from Night Lords, a bunch of Chaos Marines from Word Bearers. They're warbands now, so you don't have Legion groupings anymore.

I agree that Chaos Marines need updating (although, as a Sisters player, my sympathy is limited), and wouldn't mind legion rules returning, but there are perfectly good fluff reasons for them not to have all the same tools as regular Marines, so it's not like they're ignoring fluff to keep those tools from you. They're just focusing on different parts of the fluff.

Not Applicable
24-05-2016, 07:46
People want to get fluffy? Alright, let's get fluffy.

The reason a Chaos Space Marine army wouldn't have Razorbacks and Drop Pods is pretty simple. If a Raven Guard company fights a battle and loses one of their Razorbacks (damaged beyond repair, exploded, or even just broken and unable to be retrieved) then all they need to do is call up the nearest Forge World and they'll send them a new one. I am exaggerating slightly, but the central point is true. But, if say, a Renegade Marines army loses a Razorback, what can they do? Dark Mechanicum aren't exactly helpful types, and you can't guarantee they'll have an STC for it. Gotta steal one, but that's hard to do and very risky. So, they're just gonna have to make do without.

Rhinos remain in service for as long as they do because they're cheap and easy to maintain. They're so easy to repair that they literally have the ability to repair themselves mid-battle. Razorbacks aren't, so they're gonna run out pretty quickly. Same thing applies double to Drop Pods, since they're going to be landing hard in the middle of the enemy's lines and if you lose or they get reinforcements and you have to fall back, you can't take it with you. Even an entire Chapter that goes renegade is gonna run out of those things pretty quickly. And all of that logic could definitely apply to some of the harder to maintain weapons, like Grav Weapons or similar.

As for Legion Tactics, thanks to the way Marine Chapters are set up, you can usually guarantee that everyone in one detachment is going to be from the same Chapter. But in a Chaos Marine detachment, you might have Berzerkers from World Eaters, some Raptors from Night Lords, a bunch of Chaos Marines from Word Bearers. They're warbands now, so you don't have Legion groupings anymore.

I agree that Chaos Marines need updating (although, as a Sisters player, my sympathy is limited), and wouldn't mind legion rules returning, but there are perfectly good fluff reasons for them not to have all the same tools as regular Marines, so it's not like they're ignoring fluff to keep those tools from you. They're just focusing on different parts of the fluff.

Well that helps me come to terms with why my Crimson Slaughter army doesn't have access to drop pods and razorbacks anymore. They only turned rogue in the current millenia but given their circumstances I can live with the thought that they've lost a lot of their self control and discipline and so im fine with them not having chapter tactics anymore.

Maidel
24-05-2016, 08:47
I'm sorry, I totally disagree.

Based on that line of reasoning chaos marines have no vehicles because if they can't retrieve a drop pod from a lost battle, they can't retrieve a rhino. It's all well that a rhino can self repair in battle, but fat lot of good that's going to do them if it's stuck on a battle field and can't be extracted.

And if you follow the same line of reasoning, marines shouldn't have them either, because after a long campaign they will run out and therefore they should never have them....

The problem is your idea of a chaos warband is not everyone's idea, but only your idea can be made with the current codex. No where does it say none of the legions have retained a core force still fighting together. However it does categorically say that half the chaos powers hate the other half, so having warbands containing all 4 powers doesn't make any real sense.

Casper Hawser
24-05-2016, 09:50
Way to completely miss the point... Also, way to assume that the game itself plays almost exactly the same as it did 20+ years ago! I mean, it's not like weapons have become deadlier, or rates of fire haven't increased at all... Or that there's been entirely new armies added to the mix, and assault obviously hasn't taken a back seat to shooting by a country mile!

But clearly, Chaos Marines have absolutely nothing in common with basic Space Marines, and clearly their being left 3 entire editions behind the game and everyone else means that Chaos players just clearly need to L2P/GitGud.
Yes, it's obviously so clear that all I am is a filthy, WaaC's ****** who just wants a perfect win record, because there's no other reason that an army which at its core is still a Space Marine army needs the same rules treatment that every other Marine army in the game gets.

Well a lot of your posts do make you sound that way.
A lot of the weapon profiles of 2nd are far deadlier than they are these days.
I'm assuming you mean learn to play and get good only you know the answer to that one.

Denny
24-05-2016, 10:04
And if you follow the same line of reasoning, marines shouldn't have them either, because after a long campaign they will run out and therefore they should never have them....

No, after a long campaign they get resupplied by a Forgeworld.
Chaos Marines don't have that luxury, which is why they tend to use stuff that is more reliable, easier to repair, and available in greater numbers.

Chaos lacks something the imperium has in abundance; decent infrastructure. I blame those dang Ultramarines.

Curse you Robert Girlyman and your mastery of supply lines! :mad:;)

Maidel
24-05-2016, 10:09
No, after a long campaign they get resupplied by a Forgeworld.
Chaos Marines don't have that luxury, which is why they tend to use stuff that is more reliable, easier to repair, and available in greater numbers.

Chaos lacks something the imperium has in abundance; decent infrastructure. I blame those dang Ultramarines.

Curse you Robert Girlyman and your mastery of supply lines! :mad:;)

Ok.

So why can the battles that are fought BEFORE they run out not be represented?

Also, chaos have plenty of forge worlds, where do you think the demonic Titans and demon engines come from.

toonboy78
24-05-2016, 10:17
Ok.

So why can the battles that are fought BEFORE they run out not be represented?

Also, chaos have plenty of forge worlds, where do you think the demonic Titans and demon engines come from.

they can with codex Space Marines and allies of daemons

A.T.
24-05-2016, 10:23
Chaos forgeworlds do build drop pods, and modify existing ones - the Dreadclaw is just a regular astartes drop pod that has been retrofitted with thrusters allowing it to land and take off rather than smashing into the ground and being left for later recovery.

It has been available to chaos players for many editions, it's just not in the codex because it's a forgeworld model.

Loyalist87
24-05-2016, 10:30
As for Legion Tactics, thanks to the way Marine Chapters are set up, you can usually guarantee that everyone in one detachment is going to be from the same Chapter. But in a Chaos Marine detachment, you might have Berzerkers from World Eaters, some Raptors from Night Lords, a bunch of Chaos Marines from Word Bearers. They're warbands now, so you don't have Legion groupings anymore.

There are still Legio groupings. There are splitter factions from all legions but the only legions that really split in small warbands are EC & WE.

Denny
24-05-2016, 10:33
Ok.

So why can the battles that are fought BEFORE they run out not be represented?

Also, chaos have plenty of forge worlds, where do you think the demonic Titans and demon engines come from.

Why are no battles fought during the transition between turning renegade and actually falling?
Because whilst these events do happen they are so uncommon that it's not worth covering in the rules.

Chaos Forgeworld do indeed exist and seem to spend their time creating Daemonic hybrid dinosaur monsters. They probably could make a razorback, but trying to persuade them to do so would like trying to convince Dali to do a nice still life. In other words, positively insulting.

Look there are are gonna be some Razorbacks somewhere in the Eye. There will also be some mutant giant snake marines, a few sorcerers who have transformed into hyper intelligent gas clouds, and swarms of fish lizards that can only travel forwards in space but any direction in time. But none of these things are considered common enough to warrant rules. IMO of course. ;)

blackcherry
24-05-2016, 10:35
I think I must be the only one who actually really likes the current Chaos Space Marine box (and other kits from it's vintage too, as well as the Bezerker box for that matter). Don't worry, I'll just go sit in the corner and think about what a horrible person and pox on the hobby I am.

You aren't the only one! I love both kits. Elegance can be found in simplicity - I know a new generation of players have grown up with ultra detailed minis where you can see if the models have erect nipples because it's a cold day, but I prefer the more pared back look of the 2000's CSM boxes set.

With the additional upgrade sprues and minor resculpts on the kits (like adding a few more warp tinged details and god specific bits for the aspiring champ) have aged really well.

Just make the Dark Vengeance models available as chosen - then people can make entire armies of the models to their hearts content if they want.

Beppo1234
24-05-2016, 13:52
A quick check on Forgeworld confirms that they sell complete suits of all Heresy-era power armour, could you not simply purchase them completely and bypass the standard Chaos Space Marine kit entirely?

This is why I don't want to see the Chaos Space Marine kit changed to be in the DV or HH style, because it's much easier for someone who wants those elements to add them through upgrade sprues and Forgeworld kits than it is for someone who doesn't want those elements to take them away from a model that has them by default. By keeping the current Chaos Space Marine kit (possibly recut to include any missing wargear options) and putting out a 'Warp Corruption' upgrade sprue with DV-style components and extra Heresy-style components (provided by Forgeworld or otherwise), all three camps - the people who like the early 2000s style, people who want historical consistency and people who like the DV style - are satisfied. Yes, it would be possible for Forgeworld to produce an early 2000s style Chaos Space Marine set, but I seriously doubt they ever would - they seem to be in the business of echoing GW's design choices and catering to HH fans and 1st/2nd edition nostalgia, not lavishly restoring early 2000s models.

I think I must be the only one who actually really likes the current Chaos Space Marine box (and other kits from it's vintage too, as well as the Bezerker box for that matter). Don't worry, I'll just go sit in the corner and think about what a horrible person and pox on the hobby I am.

I too have no problem with the current CSM box, they, like any GW miniature over the ages, look fantastic if you put the right amount of work into their builds and paint jobs.

I also agree on the mix'n'match.

lastly, I'd also like to point out that Forgeworld has not yet reached a corruption point on the HH traitor marines... apart from the Word Bearer kits. I hope and expect to see a lot more corrupted marine kits as the series drives towards the Battle of Terra. It might also be strategically wise of GW to hold off on a contemporary 40k Chaos update until Forgeworld and HH have started in on truly corrupted HH marines... then integrate some (or all) of the HH stuff into freshly updated 40k Chaos 'dex.

Beppo1234
24-05-2016, 13:59
Chaos Forgeworld do indeed exist and seem to spend their time creating Daemonic hybrid dinosaur monsters. They probably could make a razorback, but trying to persuade them to do so would like trying to convince Dali to do a nice still life. In other words, positively insulting.



40k is a dark age, no original thought, and no technological innovation over the last 10000 years, you are expecting too much of these Forgeworld people... all they can do is copy stuff that already exists. It's not about persuading them to build something new, as much as they have no idea how to build something new. Chaos gets the dinosaur theme because they are exactly as stoopid, they just have some demon power to throw into the pot.

Denny
24-05-2016, 14:11
40k is a dark age, no original thought, and no technological innovation over the last 10000 years, you are expecting too much of these Forgeworld people... all they can do is copy stuff that already exists. It's not about persuading them to build something new, as much as they have no idea how to build something new. Chaos gets the dinosaur theme because they are exactly as stoopid, they just have some demon power to throw into the pot.

I think there has to be a degree of innovative thought; it's rather outside the box to decide a six limbed possessed dinosaur needs an Ectoplasma cannon in place of a head.

That's blue sky stuff right there.

daveNYC
24-05-2016, 16:03
People want to get fluffy? Alright, let's get fluffy.

The reason a Chaos Space Marine army wouldn't have Razorbacks and Drop Pods is pretty simple. If a Raven Guard company fights a battle and loses one of their Razorbacks (damaged beyond repair, exploded, or even just broken and unable to be retrieved) then all they need to do is call up the nearest Forge World and they'll send them a new one. I am exaggerating slightly, but the central point is true. But, if say, a Renegade Marines army loses a Razorback, what can they do? Dark Mechanicum aren't exactly helpful types, and you can't guarantee they'll have an STC for it. Gotta steal one, but that's hard to do and very risky. So, they're just gonna have to make do without.

Rhinos remain in service for as long as they do because they're cheap and easy to maintain. They're so easy to repair that they literally have the ability to repair themselves mid-battle. Razorbacks aren't, so they're gonna run out pretty quickly. Same thing applies double to Drop Pods, since they're going to be landing hard in the middle of the enemy's lines and if you lose or they get reinforcements and you have to fall back, you can't take it with you. Even an entire Chapter that goes renegade is gonna run out of those things pretty quickly. And all of that logic could definitely apply to some of the harder to maintain weapons, like Grav Weapons or similar.

As for Legion Tactics, thanks to the way Marine Chapters are set up, you can usually guarantee that everyone in one detachment is going to be from the same Chapter. But in a Chaos Marine detachment, you might have Berzerkers from World Eaters, some Raptors from Night Lords, a bunch of Chaos Marines from Word Bearers. They're warbands now, so you don't have Legion groupings anymore.

I agree that Chaos Marines need updating (although, as a Sisters player, my sympathy is limited), and wouldn't mind legion rules returning, but there are perfectly good fluff reasons for them not to have all the same tools as regular Marines, so it's not like they're ignoring fluff to keep those tools from you. They're just focusing on different parts of the fluff.

CSM also have Defilers, Land Raiders, Vindicators, and Predators. None of which are considered easy to repair or build. Not to mention the various fallen titan legions need to have massive manufacturing facilities to keep their machines in running order. Add in the fact that there are actually two (crappy, due to feature creep) drop pods from Forgeworld that CSM can use, and it's pretty clear that there's no actual fluff reason why CSM would not have any access to drop pods (or razorbacks, but those aren't nearly as iconic an item as pods are).

Two problems with saying that any CSM detachment will be a mix of various legions and some renegades:
1) You're removing the option of any legion flavor in any way. So those Raptors might be from the Night Lords and the Havoks might be Iron Warriors, but they behave no differently than those same units pulled from say the Black Legion and Word Bearers. Not to mention that at smaller game sizes you're talking about maybe three units or so, which makes it more difficult to insist that every unit is from a different legion.
2) Nearly every bit of Black Library fluff revolves around individual legions. The Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, each of those have had multiple novels where they are running around as a mono-legion force. The Word Bearer and Iron Warrior novels go even further and have those legion forces operating at the Grand Company level, so mono-legion and probably larger than a regular space marine chapter.

A.T.
24-05-2016, 16:13
Add in the fact that there are actually two (crappy, due to feature creep) drop pods from Forgeworld that CSM can use, and it's pretty clear that there's no actual fluff reason why CSM would not have any access to drop podsAs I mentioned a few posts up - dreadclaws are regular imperial drop pods (and lucius pattern variants) that have been retrofitted to better suit the CSMs needs.

So you are right in saying that there is no fluff reason for the CSM to not use them as they do use them, with spikes on.

Draconis
24-05-2016, 16:34
not to mention, in several books they use them to assault other ships.

Casper Hawser
24-05-2016, 16:34
As I mentioned a few posts up - dreadclaws are regular imperial drop pods (and lucius pattern variants) that have been retrofitted to better suit the CSMs needs.

So you are right in saying that there is no fluff reason for the CSM to not use them as they do use them, with spikes on.

They've probably changed the fluff on this but Dreadclaws aren't regular drop pods refitted they were designed for boarding enemy ships and are classed as flyers so would be far easier to retrieve than normal drop pods.

Beppo1234
24-05-2016, 16:38
As I mentioned a few posts up - dreadclaws are regular imperial drop pods (and lucius pattern variants) that have been retrofitted to better suit the CSMs needs.

So you are right in saying that there is no fluff reason for the CSM to not use them as they do use them, with spikes on.

kind of off topic, and a wishlist, but I picked this up from Wargames tournaments... your basic stargate rip off bit. But I always thought it appropriate that Chaos drop gates from orbit through which 'all' things could deep strike. One would deep strike the gate, and it would be a reserve access point from then on, or until destroyed.

228005 228006

I kind of feel like it's a more appropriate chaos facsimile of a contemporary 40k marine drop pod... with some added bonus (deep strike pretty much anything that wouldn't normally be able to for loyalists, and only limited by what one places in reserves)

A.T.
24-05-2016, 17:05
They've probably changed the fluff on this but Dreadclaws aren't regular drop pods refittedI think the term 'updated' might be more appropriate - they were a more advanced version of the drop pod and Horus's forces made off with the plans for it before the loyalists could get them.



I kind of feel like it's a more appropriate chaos facsimile of a contemporary 40k marine drop pod... with some added bonus (deep strike pretty much anything that wouldn't normally be able to for loyalists, and only limited by what one places in reserves)Basically 5e webway portals.

Mandragola
24-05-2016, 17:17
I think the term 'updated' might be more appropriate - they were a more advanced version of the drop pod and Horus's forces made off with the plans for it before the loyalists could get them.

All the legions had dreadclaws. Everyone gets them in 30k. The reason nobody gets them in 40k codexes is that they're a FW kit. But FW publishes rules for both loyalist and traitor dreadclaws.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Legion-Anvillus-Pattern-Dreadclaw-Drop-Pod

Draconis
24-05-2016, 17:27
kind of off topic, and a wishlist, but I picked this up from Wargames tournaments... your basic stargate rip off bit. But I always thought it appropriate that Chaos drop gates from orbit through which 'all' things could deep strike. One would deep strike the gate, and it would be a reserve access point from then on, or until destroyed.

228005 228006

I kind of feel like it's a more appropriate chaos facsimile of a contemporary 40k marine drop pod... with some added bonus (deep strike pretty much anything that wouldn't normally be able to for loyalists, and only limited by what one places in reserves)

I like the idea and wish they made one whole, that you could lay down. I just see this structure plummeting through the atmosphere to crash into the dirt, then the unit attached teleports onto the battlefield on top of it.

A.T.
24-05-2016, 17:36
All the legions had dreadclaws. Everyone gets them in 30k. The reason nobody gets them in 40k codexes is that they're a FW kit. But FW publishes rules for both loyalist and traitor dreadclaws.They are chaos only in forgeworlds 40k rules - at least until they do a reverse IA13.

deathrain-commander
24-05-2016, 17:58
I'm sorry, I totally disagree.

Based on that line of reasoning chaos marines have no vehicles because if they can't retrieve a drop pod from a lost battle, they can't retrieve a rhino. It's all well that a rhino can self repair in battle, but fat lot of good that's going to do them if it's stuck on a battle field and can't be extracted.

And if you follow the same line of reasoning, marines shouldn't have them either, because after a long campaign they will run out and therefore they should never have them....

The problem is your idea of a chaos warband is not everyone's idea, but only your idea can be made with the current codex. No where does it say none of the legions have retained a core force still fighting together. However it does categorically say that half the chaos powers hate the other half, so having warbands containing all 4 powers doesn't make any real sense.

Well the thing about Drop Pods vs. Rhinos is this: If you're a Chaos Marine with a Rhino, and those 500 Imperial Guard you were planning on killing suddenly turned into 5,000 when the cavalry arrived, you can hop back in your Rhino and drive away. If you're the same Chaos Marine with a Drop Pod, then when the 5,000 Imperial Guard show up, that Drop Pod is getting left behind. It's not gonna be able to drive you out, and you can't exactly carry it. The reason a Rhino might last longer than a Razorback is that you can put it back together in a hurry, whereas if a Razorback is damaged and you have to get outta there, you're probably not gonna be able to take it with you.

As for a Space Marine army running out of Drop Pods/Razorbacks etc, if you'll check my original post, I pointed out that a Loyalist Marine army can just call up their friendly neighborhood Forge World, and the way the Imperium is set up, they have to help them. The Dark Mechanicum doesn't have to do anything they don't want to do, which means that you're going to have a significantly harder time resupplying if you're a Chaos Marine, and even if you do convince them to help you, AND they have the STC you need (not guaranteed) it seems to me there's a good chance they'll interpret "Please make us some Drop Pods" as "More demon-bots." And if they do agree to help you and screw up, give you the wrong thing or just plain renege on their agreement, what exactly is your recourse? Loyalists can call the Ordo Machinum and get them punished. Chaos Marines just have to deal with it.

As for the rest of the weird stuff Chaos Marines have, I'm aware they have lots of stuff, most of it Daemon powered, and I'm not overlooking them. I'm just saying, there are many perfectly legitimate reasons why a Chaos Marine army might not have all the tools of a Marine army, so it's not exactly a violation of the fluff for Chaos Marines to not have Razorbacks.

Losing Command
24-05-2016, 21:03
And that is why Chaos marines use Dreadclaws rather than Dorp pods in most of the fluff. Not only do Dreadclaws have the same attitude as the marines, Dreadclaws can fly back to the space ship all by themselves. Sadly, FW makes Dreadclaw models so the chances of ever seeing plastic Dreadclaws are rather slim.

daveNYC
24-05-2016, 21:06
As for the rest of the weird stuff Chaos Marines have, I'm aware they have lots of stuff, most of it Daemon powered, and I'm not overlooking them. I'm just saying, there are many perfectly legitimate reasons why a Chaos Marine army might not have all the tools of a Marine army, so it's not exactly a violation of the fluff for Chaos Marines to not have Razorbacks.

Is there a particular reason that CSM would have access to (and presumably replacements for) Predators, Vindicators, and Land Raiders, but not be able to get replacement Drop Pods? Every bit of your fluff argument against Drop Pods and Razorbacks would also work against the three heavier vehicles.

A.T.
24-05-2016, 21:23
Is there a particular reason that CSM would have access to (and presumably replacements for) Predators, Vindicators, and Land Raiders, but not be able to get replacement Drop Pods?Fluff-wise - because they have no reason to build drop pods when they have the plans and facilities for dreadclaws, which are drop pods +1 in every sense for them.

deathrain-commander
24-05-2016, 22:23
Is there a particular reason that CSM would have access to (and presumably replacements for) Predators, Vindicators, and Land Raiders, but not be able to get replacement Drop Pods? Every bit of your fluff argument against Drop Pods and Razorbacks would also work against the three heavier vehicles.

Well not every bit. The whole "You can't take your drop pod with you" part doesn't apply to those vehicles.

More seriously, I agree, there's a good chance those things would run out pretty quickly. Honestly, I could probably make a reasonable argument for Bolters being pretty rare in Chaos Marine armies, but that's pushing it. And again, I'm not saying that it's totally crazy for Chaos Marines to have access to Razorbacks. My broader point was that people were acting like Chaos Marines not having Drop Pods or Razorbacks was some huge fluff violation, but really it just depends on which aspect of the fluff you want to focus on.

Daenerys Targaryen
24-05-2016, 22:30
Well the thing about Drop Pods vs. Rhinos is this: If you're a Chaos Marine with a Rhino, and those 500 Imperial Guard you were planning on killing suddenly turned into 5,000 when the cavalry arrived, you can hop back in your Rhino and drive away. If you're the same Chaos Marine with a Drop Pod, then when the 5,000 Imperial Guard show up, that Drop Pod is getting left behind. It's not gonna be able to drive you out, and you can't exactly carry it. The reason a Rhino might last longer than a Razorback is that you can put it back together in a hurry, whereas if a Razorback is damaged and you have to get outta there, you're probably not gonna be able to take it with you.

As for a Space Marine army running out of Drop Pods/Razorbacks etc, if you'll check my original post, I pointed out that a Loyalist Marine army can just call up their friendly neighborhood Forge World, and the way the Imperium is set up, they have to help them. The Dark Mechanicum doesn't have to do anything they don't want to do, which means that you're going to have a significantly harder time resupplying if you're a Chaos Marine, and even if you do convince them to help you, AND they have the STC you need (not guaranteed) it seems to me there's a good chance they'll interpret "Please make us some Drop Pods" as "More demon-bots." And if they do agree to help you and screw up, give you the wrong thing or just plain renege on their agreement, what exactly is your recourse? Loyalists can call the Ordo Machinum and get them punished. Chaos Marines just have to deal with it.

As for the rest of the weird stuff Chaos Marines have, I'm aware they have lots of stuff, most of it Daemon powered, and I'm not overlooking them. I'm just saying, there are many perfectly legitimate reasons why a Chaos Marine army might not have all the tools of a Marine army, so it's not exactly a violation of the fluff for Chaos Marines to not have Razorbacks.
Chaos Marines do have Forgeworld equivalents of their own actually... the Iron Warriors Daemon world of Medrangard is basically a fortified forgeworld for example, and is even capable of churing out hundreds of potential new Chaos Marines through their bastardised daemon wombs.
The Dark Mech will make anything a Chaos warband wants, as long as they get enough slaves for their trouble.

This whole idea that Chaos has limited to no resupply capability is complete BS.

corps
24-05-2016, 22:49
I went on the uk websies and it's still avalaible. Just soft cover. So maybe it was just temproray?

Maidel
25-05-2016, 00:06
I love the way that people seem to think that the imperial forge worlds are any more accommodating that the chaos ones. From everything I've read, the imperial ones are just as intransigent as the chaos ones.

The reason chaos marines don't have the same toys as normal marines is gw trying to make each army as different as possible. A few editions ago space wolves were an add on codex to the marine one, now they barely share any rules or units at all, in fact I'd go so far as to say the chaos marine codex has more in common with the marine codex than the spaces wolves now. My point is this, chaos don't have drop pods because gw says so, not because the fluff makes it unlikely.

Baal predators, unlikely, because they were rediscovered post heresy, all the rest, just gw's choice, nothing more.

Daenerys Targaryen
25-05-2016, 04:01
I went on the uk websies and it's still avalaible. Just soft cover. So maybe it was just temproray?
The codex has been soft cover for a good long while now... The topic at hand has been about how the actual basic CSM kit has recently been listed as "Sold Out".

It recently came back up for sale on the webstore the other day, however that could easily be due to the reports that GW has been having their stores & indie retailers ship a large amount of their Chaos stock back to HQ.

Tarrell
25-05-2016, 05:17
Impirum uses outdated tech with re discovered STC and tweaking (very hard to approve but everyone still does it).
Forge worlds operate independently, most just supplying minimum military equipment. Everything else is dedicated to everyday materials: Consoles, ship parts, farming equipment, utensils etc etc.
Only in extreme cases is a forgeworld directed to solely output military equipment, even then they require materials sent form surrounding worlds to meet demand.
Many Forgeworlds were like Giant factory dedicated planets, but all that knowledge is forgotten, secreted or heresy, with much of the Forgeworlds in ruins or falling apart. What out put was capable during the Crusade era, is only a fraction in 41k era.
CSM Buy, beg and steal everything they use, what they don't obtain through barter from demonforge worlds, or the dark mechanics, which unlike mechanics or Mars still retain much of pre Hersey plans as those that fled still live in the eye of terror.
Chaos's problem is their superiority complex, that their wargear during the crusades is superior to the impirums current technology, thus they lose the drive to advance.
The Impirum strive to be what was, but still learn a few neat tricks along the way.

Lord Damocles
25-05-2016, 07:49
Baal predators, unlikely, because they were rediscovered post heresy, all the rest, just gw's choice, nothing more.
Chaos can take a Relic Predator with Flamestorm Cannon and sponson Heavy Flamers, so they're really only missing the Assault Cannons.

Sureshot05
25-05-2016, 10:33
Chaos can take a Relic Predator with Flamestorm Cannon and sponson Heavy Flamers, so they're really only missing the Assault Cannons.

Which to be fair, only renegades that recently turned should have, and would probably better represented as an ally contingent to CSM. Assault cannons are meant to be very hard to maintain (still shout about them blowing up on four 1's!) and the Legion equivalent was the reaper autocannon. The new daemon fueled autocannon (forget the name) which the heldrake has etc would be nice to see one some CSM vehicles.
I think the 2nd Ed codex had loyalist equipment covered with the easiest solution. You can take anything you wish from the loyalist codex at +50% cost. Allows people to take fluffy options, but also allows balance and encouraged CSM from being Space marines plus a load of extra features. As long as the recently turned Chapter concept exists (which it should do) then arguments for every piece of loyalist equipment will exist.
Personally, I would like to see them just visit the core of the CSM like they did the space marine line. Get the basic troop box set, a cult or two done and maybe a new elite unit based off of one of the original legions and I think the release would be popular. Trouble is that GW will want a big kit so i expect a new daemon engine as well.

Draconis
25-05-2016, 13:01
Well not every bit. The whole "You can't take your drop pod with you" part doesn't apply to those vehicles.

More seriously, I agree, there's a good chance those things would run out pretty quickly. Honestly, I could probably make a reasonable argument for Bolters being pretty rare in Chaos Marine armies, but that's pushing it. And again, I'm not saying that it's totally crazy for Chaos Marines to have access to Razorbacks. My broader point was that people were acting like Chaos Marines not having Drop Pods or Razorbacks was some huge fluff violation, but really it just depends on which aspect of the fluff you want to focus on.

Then how the hell is chaos even a threat at this point? They should have ran out of everything. Please..... the traitor legions do not own a small part of the galaxy. It is quite large. They have hundreds of forgeworlds able to produce these things.

Beppo1234
25-05-2016, 14:40
Then how the hell is chaos even a threat at this point? They should have ran out of everything.

there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the warp and the eye of terror in this question and statement.

CSMs that errupt from the Eye of Terror in 40k could be marines that were fighting HH yesterday, they could also be marines that have been spit in and out of the warp a number of times over the last 10,000 years. They could even be from the future.

Then you can get into non-linear time, where a Chaos marine after fleeing into the EOT after the HH defeat, could be spit out first in the year 40k, then his next adventure he gets spit out in the year 36K, then later again in 40k.

So what supplies a CSM has when they emerge into real-space is completely ambiguous

A.T.
25-05-2016, 15:29
Please..... the traitor legions do not own a small part of the galaxy. It is quite large. They have hundreds of forgeworlds able to produce these things.What forgeworlds?
There are a handful of named examples like Xana 2, Samech, and Temporia but the chaos legions and dark mechanicus rule over an indeterminate number of worlds that the gods deem to allow them within the eye and very little else.

Draconis
25-05-2016, 15:29
Most of that is gibberish. There are tons of books where they remember all 10,000 years. The expansion of time in your examples is also incorrect unless GW specifically stated they can go back in time. compression of time may be different in your examples, IE a year in their time might be 500 in ours, etc, but they never go back in time. Either way, it doesn't matter because they are in the Eye, not the actual warp itself, and as I said, there are tons of books where the entire chapter remembers every year since the HH.

Your examples wouldn't even make sense, how do chapters stay together? By your accord, you could have two marines side by side and one just vanishes for no apparent reason.



What forgeworlds?
There are a handful of named examples like Xana 2, Samech, and Temporia but the chaos legions and dark mechanicus rule over an indeterminate number of worlds that the gods deem to allow them within the eye and very little else.

There are plenty of examples in the books, and all of them named. What, do you think the entire chaos chapter only control a few dozen planets?

Sureshot05
25-05-2016, 16:18
Most of that is gibberish. There are tons of books where they remember all 10,000 years. The expansion of time in your examples is also incorrect unless GW specifically stated they can go back in time. compression of time may be different in your examples, IE a year in their time might be 500 in ours, etc, but they never go back in time. Either way, it doesn't matter because they are in the Eye, not the actual warp itself, and as I said, there are tons of books where the entire chapter remembers every year since the HH.

Your examples wouldn't even make sense, how do chapters stay together? By your accord, you could have two marines side by side and one just vanishes for no apparent reason.




There are plenty of examples in the books, and all of them named. What, do you think the entire chaos chapter only control a few dozen planets?

GW have shown travel back into the past. It was either a previous codex or the apoc book, but there is an example of an OrK waaagh which goes into the warp emerges in the past and defeats its past self. Possibly some of the worst GW background I have read, but it is very possible for CSM to go back in time as well.

A.T.
25-05-2016, 16:22
What, do you think the entire chaos chapter only control a few dozen planets?One world each - the planet of sorcerers, Sicarus, the plague planet, Medrengard, Harmony, and Maeleum.

I can't recall there ever being anything suggesting the legions work in some kind of orderly manner to control large territories within the eye beyond either showing up to fight for their patron god or individual rulers having some lingering loyalty to their original legion.



Your examples wouldn't even make sense, how do chapters stay together? By your accord, you could have two marines side by side and one just vanishes for no apparent reason.Chaotic, isn't it.
And that's not half their troubles, you've got marines collapsing randomly into a pool of claws and tentacles, switching sides at the drop of a hat or deciding starting a new faction of their own, showing up a thousand years after they died (which may or may not from their perspective have happened yet), or not turning up at all because they have decided to spend a hundred years banging their head against a wall repeating the same insane chant over and over and over and over.

daveNYC
25-05-2016, 16:22
Fluff-wise - because they have no reason to build drop pods when they have the plans and facilities for dreadclaws, which are drop pods +1 in every sense for them.

Aren't dreadclaws something near three times the cost of regular pods, and don't have any of the deep strike mitigation or first turn arrival rules? I mean it's +1 in the sense that you can get back in and fly back to your ship or go on a beer run, but for the specific purpose of quick and reliable marine delivery, they're decidedly sub-par. And their ability to fly around the battlefield is no longer remotely special now that both CSM and loyalists have access to various flying transports.

A.T.
25-05-2016, 16:27
GW have shown travel back into the past. It was either a previous codex or the apoc book, but there is an example of an OrK waaagh which goes into the warp emerges in the past and defeats its past self.Grizgutz - notable in that when he realised he had gone back in time he turned around and deliberately hunted his past self down so that he would have a spare of his favourite gun.

A.T.
25-05-2016, 16:49
Aren't dreadclaws something near three times the cost of regular podsFluff-wise they are drop pods +1 in every sense, and fluff-wise it makes no sense for chaos forge worlds to manufacture lesser drop pods.

Rules wise they are a mix of lucius and deathstorm pod with ~20-25pts of compulsory upgrades on top of the flyer mode and fire sweep. It's the sort of thing you used to get with the vehicle design rules, something that looks like it was priced by adding on each ability at a set cost to find the total rather than figuring out what it is actually worth.

Casper Hawser
25-05-2016, 17:24
Aren't dreadclaws something near three times the cost of regular pods, and don't have any of the deep strike mitigation or first turn arrival rules? I mean it's +1 in the sense that you can get back in and fly back to your ship or go on a beer run, but for the specific purpose of quick and reliable marine delivery, they're decidedly sub-par. And their ability to fly around the battlefield is no longer remotely special now that both CSM and loyalists have access to various flying transports.

Yeah there about 3 times the cost. They do have drop pod assault rule so you can get them in on turn 1 but they don't have inertia guidance system.
They arrive in hover mode and you can assault out of them the next turn.
I've got a couple and really like them great models but without the guidance system there's always a bit of a risk.


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Denny
25-05-2016, 17:31
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271640-misconceptions-about-csm/page-4#entry3316051

This post from Aaron Dembski-Bowden (which I only discovered recently) pretty much sums up how I see Chaos Space marines. It's a mad chaotic mess of betrayals, lies, shifting loyalties and madness. And just because someone is from the same legion as you doesn't mean you won't betray them to a stronger rival if it suits your goals.

Lord Malorne
25-05-2016, 17:56
... and as I said, there are tons of books where the entire chapter remembers every year since the HH.

Out of curiosity, which ones?

Draconis
25-05-2016, 18:05
Out of curiosity, which ones?

Well, I know for a fact the one about the Iron Warriors assaulting the gene seed world mentioned one or two for their Titans of the top of my head. Think it's called Storm of Iron.

Draconis
25-05-2016, 18:07
The point of all this is, there's no reason CSM can't be on equal footing. There's no reason to take the rules CSM get's, strip them and hand them off to SM. There's no reason a lot of the tech, which are very basic things, cannot be put in the regular codex. Hell, I dont care what you call them, they are still marines, they fight like marines, and they have the same tactics as marines. Playing CSM is literally playing a handicap against a marine codex.

Theocracity
25-05-2016, 19:20
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271640-misconceptions-about-csm/page-4#entry3316051

This post from Aaron Dembski-Bowden (which I only discovered recently) pretty much sums up how I see Chaos Space marines. It's a mad chaotic mess of betrayals, lies, shifting loyalties and madness. And just because someone is from the same legion as you doesn't mean you won't betray them to a stronger rival if it suits your goals.

That is such a good portrayal of Chaos Marines. I love it.

Beppo1234
25-05-2016, 19:45
Most of that is gibberish. There are tons of books where they remember all 10,000 years. The expansion of time in your examples is also incorrect unless GW specifically stated they can go back in time. compression of time may be different in your examples, IE a year in their time might be 500 in ours, etc, but they never go back in time. Either way, it doesn't matter because they are in the Eye, not the actual warp itself, and as I said, there are tons of books where the entire chapter remembers every year since the HH.

Your examples wouldn't even make sense, how do chapters stay together? By your accord, you could have two marines side by side and one just vanishes for no apparent reason.




There are plenty of examples in the books, and all of them named. What, do you think the entire chaos chapter only control a few dozen planets?

For every bit of fluff where a chaos marine experienced the full 10000 years pass, there is another bit of fluff where a chaos marine skipped it all (one day he was fighting in the HH, the next he was in 40k). That is the essence of Chaos and the nature of the warp. Time and space are fluid in the warp, and it is not linear. In one section of the warp time might be passing faster than in another, and in another time might be progressing backwards, and in another time might be progressing sideways (whatever that means) and perhaps all are slower relative to real time, even the one progressing backward. And CSMs don't choose when and where they are spit out, that's determined by higher powers, or great individuals who can harness the warp. It's why one requires psykers to navigate, so that one arrives in the right place and at the right time. It's also why in the 'far future, there is only war'... because it doesn't matter how many Chaos Marines the imperium kills, others will just pop out of the warp (or the same ones from earlier points in their own lives, even if it creates time paradoxes, that's what chaos is all about). Victory can never be achieved.

It's supposed to be a mess that doesn't make sense... it's chaos

Fangschrecken
26-05-2016, 00:32
That is such a good portrayal of Chaos Marines. I love it.

It's ADB. If it wasn't good the internet would explode.

Tarrell
26-05-2016, 05:40
That is such a good portrayal of Chaos Marines. I love it.
Yep Perfect, thats pretty much the exact same for Dark Eldar too.

Theocracity
26-05-2016, 05:46
It's ADB. If it wasn't good the internet would explode.

Lol, yeah. What I mean though is that it shows how warbands can be a much more interesting portrayal of Chaos than the unified Legion-centric ones I often see touted. Its fine for Chaos champions to be veterans of the Horus Heresy, but ignoring all the potential for internecine politics and personality-driven conflict that can take place in those intervening 10,000 years just seems like a wasted opportunity.

Maidel
26-05-2016, 08:19
Yes, but as with everything chaotic, it's not the only way it is.

It's a fantastic description of how chaotic chaos can be, but it's not the only way.

Casper Hawser
26-05-2016, 08:42
Yes, but as with everything chaotic, it's not the only way it is.

It's a fantastic description of how chaotic chaos can be, but it's not the only way.
He described 100s of ways chaos can be viewed in that description what did he miss out?


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blackcherry
26-05-2016, 10:19
The part where chaos get razorbacks in their army lists I suppose.

Casper Hawser
26-05-2016, 11:00
The part where chaos get razorbacks in their army lists I suppose.

Oh yeah I forgot about that.


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Draconis
26-05-2016, 13:31
Or drop pods, because again, unlike razorbacks, they actually use them in the stories

Lord Damocles
26-05-2016, 15:32
Or drop pods, because again, unlike razorbacks, they actually use them in the stories
So do Sisters of Battle, Assassins, Imperial Guard, presumably Grey Knights and Inquisition, Deathwatch, Tau...

Draconis
26-05-2016, 15:33
So do Sisters of Battle, Assassins, Imperial Guard, presumably Grey Knights and Inquisition, Deathwatch, Tau...

I never once said they shouldn't have them nor did I ever say it wasn't a mistake on GW's part. But drop pods are an essential part of any marines army because they are literally the assault and shock troops.

Losing Command
26-05-2016, 15:40
The warband idea also doesn't mean your one-legion-only force can't excist. The point level most people play at is for a small fighting force, not a whole army (nutcases who collect entire space marine chapters aside :chrome:) and battles with only 40-ish chaos marines from a single faction still happen.

Those that want to play CSM that have all the weapons and equipment loyalists have should use the loyalist marine codex and maybe tone down on the wishing the CSM codex to be something it isn't. Ally in some daemons and/or use malefic psychis powers and you have the perfect example of a recently turned chapter.

Draconis
26-05-2016, 15:43
The warband idea also doesn't mean your one-legion-only force can't excist. The point level most people play at is for a small fighting force, not a whole army (nutcases who collect entire space marine chapters aside :chrome:) and battles with only 40-ish chaos marines from a single faction still happen.

Those that want to play CSM that have all the weapons and equipment loyalists have should use the loyalist marine codex and maybe tone down on the wishing the CSM codex to be something it isn't. Ally in some daemons and/or use malefic psychis powers and you have the perfect example of a recently turned chapter.

So you're answer is to be happy being subpar, the red-headed stepchild, and use another codex while others blame you for wanting to abuse that codex or that you're not playing fluffy or even playing CSM at all.... So instead of actually fixing the problem, you'd rather circumvent it.

Casper Hawser
26-05-2016, 15:45
The warband idea also doesn't mean your one-legion-only force can't excist. The point level most people play at is for a small fighting force, not a whole army (nutcases who collect entire space marine chapters aside :chrome:) and battles with only 40-ish chaos marines from a single faction still happen.

Those that want to play CSM that have all the weapons and equipment loyalists have should use the loyalist marine codex and maybe tone down on the wishing the CSM codex to be something it isn't. Ally in some daemons and/or use malefic psychis powers and you have the perfect example of a recently turned chapter.

Don't use common sense were talking chaos here.


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Casper Hawser
26-05-2016, 16:21
So you're answer is to be happy being subpar, the red-headed stepchild, and use another codex while others blame you for wanting to abuse that codex or that you're not playing fluffy or even playing CSM at all.... So instead of actually fixing the problem, you'd rather circumvent it.

I prefer strawberry blond and my step mum loved me just as much as my half brothers well until my dad died that is.


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Theocracity
26-05-2016, 17:08
So you're answer is to be happy being subpar, the red-headed stepchild, and use another codex while others blame you for wanting to abuse that codex or that you're not playing fluffy or even playing CSM at all.... So instead of actually fixing the problem, you'd rather circumvent it.

I think the point is that Chaos should have its own aesthetically distinct weapons, equipment and rules rather than continuing to try and be Marines, But With Spikes On. And that it's a bit of a reach to wish for both aesthetically distinct Chaos elements and copies of Marine equipment on top of it.

Personally I think they should go a bit farther afield when they redo Chaos. Rather than rhinos, land raiders and drop pods they should have demon-infested crawling transports and warp-portal delivered troop fortifications. Stuff that stands on its own, rather than always being subject to comparison with the poster boys.

There's always the Horus Heresy for those who prefer their Chaos to be less Chaos-y. Or, as noted, the option to play Marines who use demonology.

Beppo1234
26-05-2016, 17:20
There's always the Horus Heresy for those who prefer their Chaos to be less Chaos-y. Or, as noted, the option to play Marines who use demonology.

again, I would be totally behind GW holding off on any kind of Chaos update until FW start really corrupting their HH traitors (I mean beyond the few Word Bearer models that are already so). I can just see it now... GW releases a CSM book that people are relatively happy with until FW blows it out of the water with their own HH version.

blackcherry
26-05-2016, 17:23
My, it would almost be as if the legions in the HH FW books were representing them before they lost everything and had to flee across the galaxy from retribution, then spend as long as 10,000 years in hell fighting to get even merger resources. Splintering into new factions, making pacts, losing them, joining up with other warbands...until they look something like they do in the current 40k codex...

Beppo1234
26-05-2016, 17:24
So you're answer is to be happy being subpar, the red-headed stepchild, and use another codex while others blame you for wanting to abuse that codex or that you're not playing fluffy or even playing CSM at all.... So instead of actually fixing the problem, you'd rather circumvent it.

don't be so entitled... GW doesn't owe you or us anything and they'll fix it when they want/need to (neither avenue apparently providing enough motivation for them to really do so yet). Until then, muddle through with what's available... because chances are, a fix might leave your personal vision of Chaos worse off than it was before.

Fangschrecken
26-05-2016, 17:35
The thing about ADB's description is that throughout all of it he's still talking about a warband of Word Bearers. Sure they can find allies with just about any other legion or mechanicum or traitor humans but at the core it is still a band of Word Bearers. And, as previously mentioned, most games take place at a scale where it would be just a handful of marines who could very well be from the same original legion and retain that fighting style. Now personally I think CSM ought to be something like marines with entirely different support units and vehicles, but at the core they are marines and I think they ought to be able to claim legion tactics or whatever you'd like to call them. Perhaps it'd function like the Ad Mech Psalms where the strength of the rituals are based on how many units of each type are in the army? Ex. if you have 4+ units with mark of Tzeench and they out number units with mark of khorne by at least a 2-1 ratio all Lore of Tzeench powers go off on a 3+. Or if you've got a balanced force with roughly equal numbers of units dedicated to specific gods you get a chaos undivided benefit depending on the legion or warband. I could go on and on with thing but I think you get the idea.

Edit: you'd have to grant relatively equal benefits to the different warbands and legions. Like chapter tactics keep things fairly even between chapters but are there to promote that chapter's play style while not restricting their options (except black Templars). And there could be tactics for every legion along with some of the larger named warbands like the Crimson Slaughter or the Red Corsairs

Maidel
26-05-2016, 17:38
He described 100s of ways chaos can be viewed in that description what did he miss out?


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The legion centric view point?

Draconis
26-05-2016, 17:45
don't be so entitled... GW doesn't owe you or us anything and they'll fix it when they want/need to (neither avenue apparently providing enough motivation for them to really do so yet). Until then, muddle through with what's available... because chances are, a fix might leave your personal vision of Chaos worse off than it was before.

There's nothing entitled to what I said. You gave a work around. You didn't offer an actual fix to the solution. It was literally: Problem - CSM dex is subar. Answer - Use another dex.

Beppo1234
26-05-2016, 18:08
There's nothing entitled to what I said. You gave a work around. You didn't offer an actual fix to the solution. It was literally: Problem - CSM dex is subar. Answer - Use another dex.

I've seen a number of 'we deserves' already. And I don't work for the entity called GW, who are the only ones who can give you a solution. So if you don't like what they have on offer for Chaos, your only solution is to proxy or house rule.... or just put your army/collection in build mode, and slowly add to it until you are happy with the book. But until GW makes a new book that you are happy with, those are really your three options, proxy, house rule or wait.

on the point of drop pods, my opinion on the matter is that Chaos has better things to do with its finite resources, relative to imperial production capabilities, than build disposable single use transports. Imps on the other hand have so much, that they can waste, even lives

Draconis
26-05-2016, 18:13
I've seen a number of 'we deserves' already. And I don't work for the entity called GW, who are the only ones who can give you a solution. So if you don't like what they have on offer for Chaos, your only solution is to proxy or house rule.

on the point of drop pods, my opinion on the matter is that Chaos has better things to do with its finite resources, relative to imperial production capabilities, than build disposable single use transports. Imps on the other hand have so much, that they can waste, even lives

They seem to be able to build dread claws without a problem. So why can't you put that in the dex? Those finite resources are still quite a lot.

Casper Hawser
26-05-2016, 19:11
The legion centric view point?

The Legion centric view was definitely in there along with the many ways it can fall apart or not.


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Theocracity
26-05-2016, 19:19
The thing about ADB's description is that throughout all of it he's still talking about a warband of Word Bearers. Sure they can find allies with just about any other legion or mechanicum or traitor humans but at the core it is still a band of Word Bearers.

I'm not really sure why that makes a difference. Nothing really changes about the concept if you swap the names with any other group of Chaos marines, whether they came from legions or not.


And, as previously mentioned, most games take place at a scale where it would be just a handful of marines who could very well be from the same original legion and retain that fighting style. Now personally I think CSM ought to be something like marines with entirely different support units and vehicles, but at the core they are marines and I think they ought to be able to claim legion tactics or whatever you'd like to call them. Perhaps it'd function like the Ad Mech Psalms where the strength of the rituals are based on how many units of each type are in the army? Ex. if you have 4+ units with mark of Tzeench and they out number units with mark of khorne by at least a 2-1 ratio all Lore of Tzeench powers go off on a 3+. Or if you've got a balanced force with roughly equal numbers of units dedicated to specific gods you get a chaos undivided benefit depending on the legion or warband. I could go on and on with thing but I think you get the idea.

Edit: you'd have to grant relatively equal benefits to the different warbands and legions. Like chapter tactics keep things fairly even between chapters but are there to promote that chapter's play style while not restricting their options (except black Templars). And there could be tactics for every legion along with some of the larger named warbands like the Crimson Slaughter or the Red Corsairs

I think it makes more sense for the Warband portrayal of Chaos if the signature Legion rules are more related to individual units, or formations of units. Then have the overall army rule be more generically Chaos-boosting. It would fit with the concept of powerful champions and their warbands working together, even if they don't all mesh under the same exclusive Legion-based rules set.

TheBearminator
26-05-2016, 20:21
kind of off topic, and a wishlist, but I picked this up from Wargames tournaments... your basic stargate rip off bit. But I always thought it appropriate that Chaos drop gates from orbit through which 'all' things could deep strike. One would deep strike the gate, and it would be a reserve access point from then on, or until destroyed.

228005 228006

I kind of feel like it's a more appropriate chaos facsimile of a contemporary 40k marine drop pod... with some added bonus (deep strike pretty much anything that wouldn't normally be able to for loyalists, and only limited by what one places in reserves)
Just make it different from the dark eldar webway portal in some way.

Beppo1234
26-05-2016, 20:28
They seem to be able to build dread claws without a problem. So why can't you put that in the dex? Those finite resources are still quite a lot.

because a dreadclaw is not a drop pod, in the sense that imperial drop pods are disposable one use pods. They are flyers with their own propulsion.

I think chaos should have cooler ways to deep strike than a drop pod.

Theocracity
26-05-2016, 20:29
Just make it different from the dark eldar webway portal in some way.

I think making it some sort of summoning circle fortification could be cool. Have it be something that units have to occupy in order to function - a good role for those cultists. Plus you could have protective chaos sigils or eldritch pillars that shoot warp lightning to protect it. And the units might not even need to deep strike at the portal's location - they could DS as normal on the battlefield as long as the summoning circle is activated.

Then again the DE webway portal is a concept that could use some reworking too. It's a neat concept that's a bit bland in its execution. If nothing else it needs a proper model.

A.T.
26-05-2016, 20:29
Just make it different from the dark eldar webway portal in some way.You are thinking of the old portal.

The new one is just pay x points to deepstrike without scatter. Popular with wraithguard.

Beppo1234
26-05-2016, 20:34
Just make it different from the dark eldar webway portal in some way.

If it were me: I'd have it so that anything that could physically fit through the gate could deep strike through it... but which direction they come out of would be decided by a roll. Multiple gates... random roll to see which gate reserves materialize from, with possibility of jumping between two or more gates with random outcomes.... throw in free-buff-demon formations to couple with it.

Maidel
26-05-2016, 21:19
The Legion centric view was definitely in there along with the many ways it can fall apart or not.


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Yes, but it isn't in the current codex...

Casper Hawser
27-05-2016, 07:33
Yes, but it isn't in the current codex...

You sir are like the warp forever changing.


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Not Applicable
27-05-2016, 07:57
...

I think it makes more sense for the Warband portrayal of Chaos if the signature Legion rules are more related to individual units, or formations of units. Then have the overall army rule be more generically Chaos-boosting. It would fit with the concept of powerful champions and their warbands working together, even if they don't all mesh under the same exclusive Legion-based rules set.

Definitely.
I think this is the future of the chaos dex. Small fomations with their own rules to represent units from different backgrounds. I can imaging a chaos army including a band of Brethren of the Dark Covenent (Crimson Slaughter rules) fighting alongside of formations from other legion/renegade warbands

Just need to wait for just before the end of the year for the new dex.

Beppo1234
27-05-2016, 17:27
would it be a bad idea for Chaos to have an internal alliance system giving some flavor and form to way different bands of heretics unite?

Theocracity
27-05-2016, 17:50
would it be a bad idea for Chaos to have an internal alliance system giving some flavor and form to way different bands of heretics unite?

I think that would be neat - especially if, say, a Black Legion super-detachment rule involved removing any ally restrictions. However I don't think that's especially likely based on GW's rules writing history.

Beppo1234
27-05-2016, 19:25
I think that would be neat - especially if, say, a Black Legion super-detachment rule involved removing any ally restrictions. However I don't think that's especially likely based on GW's rules writing history.

yeah I hear that. But I just think it would be cool if, for example, Khorne beserkers could only be treated as allies of convenience because their just as likely to go crazy and kill you, as they are the loyalist scum etc. or that Slanesh and Nurgle don't really get along etc etc.

Denny
27-05-2016, 20:55
Whilst fluffy I think that would get too complicated, and it's too hard to impose those sort of rules; i think flexible formations would be the best way to represent an old school legion (and would include restrictions &a fluffy composers options) but in general units should just have the options for veteran abilities.

Beppo1234
28-05-2016, 13:17
Whilst fluffy I think that would get too complicated, and it's too hard to impose those sort of rules; i think flexible formations would be the best way to represent an old school legion (and would include restrictions &a fluffy composers options) but in general units should just have the options for veteran abilities.

I know I only listed limitations, but there could be some basic boon gains for given internal alliances as well. Kind of how Deathwing are far more useful when one has some ravenwing on the table. Come to think of it, formations already do this sort of work through their special rules... another avenue for the same concept