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The National Elf Service
08-05-2016, 13:34
Sorry if this has been mentioned before but, after browsing GW's website for a bit, I noticed that the standard Chaos Space Marine models were sold out (in the UK at least) so I was just wondering whether anyone knew anything about any upcoming CSM releases or why this has happened. Thanks in advance :D

ToLongDidntRead
08-05-2016, 13:43
Several reliable sources, namely; "Sad Panda, Atia and Squiggly" say CSm are getting a big revamp next year, with some Rubic themed releases at the tail end of this year.

Valaraukar
08-05-2016, 14:04
Probably getting repacked with 32mms like some of the SM kits.

WarsmithGarathor94
08-05-2016, 14:27
Why they can't be bothered to release a new kit il never know

Daenerys Targaryen
08-05-2016, 14:35
Why they can't be bothered to release a new kit il never know
Because we're Chaos, and Chaos doesn't deserve nice things because... "bad guys and losing all the time".

malisteen
08-05-2016, 15:42
Nobody saw the last little CSM wave coming. Wasn't on any radars at all. I would not be shocked or surprised if another mini CSM wave showed up with a new base CSM sprue, and a new havoc kit using the base sprue with some heavy weapons.

Mind you, I'm not expecting it either. It just wouldn't surprise me if it happened.


GW clearly isn't squatting CSMs, and doesn't hate the army. They're just obviously unsure what to do with it, and still gunshy from 3.5, when they overshot the mark and turned an entire edition of the game over to a single faction.

A.T.
08-05-2016, 16:20
GW clearly isn't squatting CSMs, and doesn't hate the army. They're just obviously unsure what to do with it, and still gunshy from 3.5, when they overshot the mark and turned an entire edition of the game over to a single faction.I doubt many of the designers there even remember 3.5 with any particular clarity (or at all). They certainly weren't gunshy when it came to eldar and their 3rd edition schtick was having more 2+ to wound armour ignoring shots each turn than you had models.

More likely they are trying to figure out how to cash in on the heresy wave without stepping too much on forgeworlds feet, while trying to figure out what to do about the whole daemonkin angle. Probably some decision making over what heresy stuff (like contemptor dreads) go to CSM, or to loyalists, or to both.

Bender
08-05-2016, 16:23
I thought things were a little bit chaotic at this point for said army...

Mike3791
08-05-2016, 17:37
Several reliable sources, namely; "Sad Panda, Atia and Squiggly" say CSm are getting a big revamp next year, with some Rubic themed releases at the tail end of this year.

Horus Heresy Thousand Sons and book 7 due end of this year

Daenerys Targaryen
08-05-2016, 20:21
Horus Heresy Thousand Sons and book 7 due end of this year
That's Forgeworld. GW main is releasing pretty much nothing this year for 40k Chaos.

And we all know that Loyalists will inevitably get full access to Contemptors & any other Heresy era stuff, just like they've already pooched every other unique toy Chaos once had.

IncrediSteve
08-05-2016, 20:51
they've already pooched every other unique toy Chaos once had.

Not true! Loyalists still don't have... Reaper Autocannons! :shifty:

StrikeDeath
08-05-2016, 20:53
That's Forgeworld. GW main is releasing pretty much nothing this year for 40k Chaos.

And we all know that Loyalists will inevitably get full access to Contemptors & any other Heresy era stuff, just like they've already pooched every other unique toy Chaos once had.

Yes because obviously Chaos only ever had Contemptors, the Loyalist Legions never used or deployed anything like them ever. Oh and the B@C Cataphractii and Contemptors are already available for Marines anyway now...

Look at the end of the day GW doesn't hate Chaos Marines they're just busy doing everything else first and will get to them eventually. You may think that's unfair but in the grand scheme of things you're a small part of 2 huge model ranges, 1 of which is going through an almost complete overhaul and release. So just like everyone else that wants good stuff just wait.

WarsmithGarathor94
08-05-2016, 21:08
Yes because obviously Chaos only ever had Contemptors, the Loyalist Legions never used or deployed anything like them ever. Oh and the B@C Cataphractii and Contemptors are already available for Marines anyway now...

Look at the end of the day GW doesn't hate Chaos Marines they're just busy doing everything else first and will get to them eventually. You may think that's unfair but in the grand scheme of things you're a small part of 2 huge model ranges, 1 of which is going through an almost complete overhaul and release. So just like everyone else that wants good stuff just wait.

You say gw dosent hate chaos yet for example why are chosen inferior to sternguard and vanguard why do we pay for special rules while loyalists get them for free. Why do our Lords have garbage options for defence options and apperently the only god who can get a 3++ is tzeench. It wouldn't be so bad if our unique stuff was better than loyalist stuff but they are not

nagash66
08-05-2016, 21:57
I think they should be scrapped for a year, just to give Chaos players ( and certain posters on this very site) a real reason for their level of whining.

WarsmithGarathor94
08-05-2016, 22:28
I think they should be scrapped for a year, just to give Chaos players ( and certain posters on this very site) a real reason for their level of whining.

You mean other than chaos marines as a faction get 2nd rate treatment and even tyranids get more love rules wise than us. Heck it's rather insulting that we are the army who uses the warp the most yet outside of one very unreliable artefact we have access to no safe ways of deepstriking we have access to only 2 pods both which can easily be killed in the dog fight phase and are way over priced but I'm sorry I forget chaos marines wanting to be able to fight imperial armies on a equal level us wrong

Losing Command
08-05-2016, 22:36
Maybe it would be even more funny if GW did a suprise update of all out-dated models, alongside a nice codex that allows one to represent more factions than the Black Legion. If only to see the more whiny part of the CSM fanbase desperately try and find ways to keep on complaining :evilgrin:

Fen
08-05-2016, 22:44
If only to see the more whiny part of the CSM fanbase desperately try and find ways to keep on complaining :evilgrin:

"BUT NOW OUR SUPPLEMENTS,thatuptothismomenteveryoneseemedtohate andtoconsiderthegreatestinsulttochaosever,AREN'T UPDATED ANYMORE WHILE THE ONES FOR THE LOYALIST ARE,GW HATES US"

You know they would.





Anyway,back to topic....I think rebasing sounds likely,didnt they do something similar (remove from the store/read a few days later) with one of the loyalist space marines kits some time ago?

slave
08-05-2016, 22:55
I especially like how we have had Chaos Armour since 1987, lost it, and loyalists gained it, but called it Artificer Armour. Yeah, we CSM scum have no room to complain about anything. Why would we? I mean, we gain the honor of having to challenge everyone, yet they took all of our weapons away that can pierce 2+ saves, or even 3+ saves! It's especially fun how we lose all of our defensive wargear! I mean, why not be forced to challenge just to not be able to kill squad leaders. After all, we do get Helldrakes AMIRITE?

Fen
08-05-2016, 22:57
It's not that you have no reason to complain.

It's that complaining about everything,everywhere,everytime (even when/where it's not related/makes no sense in context) makes people less and less likely to sympathize as time goes.

And this is going to get really off topic for a news section thread very fast if we keep discussing it.

Dark Elf
08-05-2016, 23:11
Nobody saw the last little CSM wave coming. Wasn't on any radars at all. I would not be shocked or surprised if another mini CSM wave showed up with a new base CSM sprue, and a new havoc kit using the base sprue with some heavy weapons.

Mind you, I'm not expecting it either. It just wouldn't surprise me if it happened.


GW clearly isn't squatting CSMs, and doesn't hate the army. They're just obviously unsure what to do with it, and still gunshy from 3.5, when they overshot the mark and turned an entire edition of the game over to a single faction.

Or as we already know, everything is planned at least 2 years in advance. Maybe, just maybe they have a lot of chaos incoming at some point? Too many salty chaos players these days sheesh.

Warhams-77
08-05-2016, 23:37
Several reliable sources, namely; "Sad Panda, Atia and Squiggly" say CSm are getting a big revamp next year, with some Rubic themed releases at the tail end of this year.

No, Sad Panda and Atia didn't say that. Rubric Marines in plastic near the end of 2016, yes, but not "CSm are getting a big revamp next year". And if Squiggly (from the Faeit comments?) has said so he is pretty much alone with it at the moment.

slave
09-05-2016, 00:11
It's not that you have no reason to complain.

It's that complaining about everything,everywhere,everytime (even when/where it's not related/makes no sense in context) makes people less and less likely to sympathize as time goes.

And this is going to get really off topic for a news section thread very fast if we keep discussing it.

Especially when they are siting on op of the mountain tabling CSM armies left and right. I mean, who wants to lose the easy wins?

Daenerys Targaryen
09-05-2016, 00:42
Loyalist players have no idea just how good they have it... It'll be all the more amusing if/when we ever do get our long overdue overhaul, and Loyalist players everywhere turn around and start a never-ending ***** fest about how OP and game-breaking a possible new codex is, just because we get a single new ap3 weapon that only comes on Fiends.

But then as Chaos players, we're used to Loyalists being a bunch of hypocrites.

slave
09-05-2016, 00:49
Loyalist players have no idea just how good they have it... It'll be all the more amusing if/when we ever do get our long overdue overhaul, and Loyalist players everywhere turn around and start a never-ending ***** fest about how OP and game-breaking a possible new codex is, just because we get a single new ap3 weapon that only comes on Fiends.

But then as Chaos players, we're used to Loyalists being a bunch of hypocrites.

It's been this way since second edition. In Rogue Trader, it wasn't bad at all. Eldar were a bit silly, but it was okay. In second edition, it turned into Space Marine Battle 40,000 and loyalists started this path. In 3.5, Chaos was Great, but we see what happened since then right?

StrikeDeath
09-05-2016, 01:07
Loyalist players have no idea just how good they have it... It'll be all the more amusing if/when we ever do get our long overdue overhaul, and Loyalist players everywhere turn around and start a never-ending ***** fest about how OP and game-breaking a possible new codex is, just because we get a single new ap3 weapon that only comes on Fiends.

But then as Chaos players, we're used to Loyalists being a bunch of hypocrites.

You know, if you weren't just so angry about posting relating to the Chaos codices I may have some sympathy for you. I however do not and will not. And quite frankly i hope they never update Chaos just to spite you.

insectum7
09-05-2016, 02:09
It's been this way since second edition. In Rogue Trader, it wasn't bad at all. Eldar were a bit silly, but it was okay. In second edition, it turned into Space Marine Battle 40,000 and loyalists started this path. In 3.5, Chaos was Great, but we see what happened since then right?

Chaos was pretty awesome in 2nd. 3rd and 4th too. Defilers were a great addition then, and I remember at least a couple battles where a Champion turned into a Bloodthirster and worked it's way through whole armies. Only in their 5th Ed book did things erode a bit.


Loyalist players have no idea just how good they have it...
. . . we're used to Loyalists being a bunch of hypocrites.

Uh huh. . .

thraxdown
09-05-2016, 03:16
I think they should be scrapped for a year, just to give Chaos players ( and certain posters on this very site) a real reason for their level of whining.


Man, whatever. Plenty of chaos players have a decent used car's worth of models invested in their army. They deserve an army that can function in the game as much as anyone else. Do we whine? Yeah, after investing so much in this game and to end with an army that can't compete with our friends, it takes the fun out of the game. First we complain, then we leave the hobby. The sooner it gets fixed the better it is for all involved.

Losing Command
09-05-2016, 05:49
There does seem to be something about certain CSM fans that makes them more entitled and whiny than those of other factions. Tyranids, SoB and Orks also don't have it great, not even mentioning Squat, and you don't see their fans popping up in every thread lamenting an older edition of their codex and the current situation every time all the time.
I mean, CSM could use some attention but come on, this is just embarrassing.

Tarrell
09-05-2016, 06:04
Just like WFB Chaos lost its appeal when they separated Demons from the codex. Once there is a reunited codex, and some rule tweaks you'll see the difference.
I'm a DE player and DA player, I know all about either receiving the rough stick or nothing but squats, see "Asdrubael Vect" or in fact don't see him, his rules or a new model...ever.
Everyone gets their turn, only Vanilla marines get the real special treatment, and maybe Tau. We're use to it, but we have the better backgrounds, storys, and themes.

Kakapo42
09-05-2016, 09:10
I wonder how many Sisters of Battle players find all this Chaos ranting cute...

Oddly enough, as a prospective Chaos Space Marines player looking in, the idea of a model reboot terrifies me. I hate the DV Chaos Space Marine look and love the creepy evil space marine look of the early 2000s era. I've been considering building a Night Lords army one of these days. I would not consider it if they remade the older models.

I definitely agree that they could do with some better rules though. :)


Everyone gets their turn, only Vanilla marines get the real special treatment, and maybe Tau. We're use to it, but we have the better backgrounds, storys, and themes.

No it's pretty much just Vanilla Marines. Tau are just enjoying their turn in the sun after the dark times of 5th edition.

A.T.
09-05-2016, 09:16
Everyone gets their turn, only Vanilla marines get the real special treatment, and maybe Tau.Tau (and eldar) actually got pushed back in the schedule a couple of months to clear space for CSMs to launch with 6th.
They've done pretty well out of the updates though while a number of other factions have stalled with their 7th ed book - 2014 was not a good year for army books in general aside from the knights.

Latro_
09-05-2016, 11:03
I think GW have always had a culture of CSM should not 'just be like' loyalists because in addition they have all this extra stuff:
marks, daemon engines, cultists, daemons, cult troops etc etc etc that makes up for it (although it doesn't, at least any more)

to make them the same e.g. oh you have all these traits and weapons AND all the above... thats just not going to happen.

CSM if anything have an identity crisis with how 40K is now... All the things that make them unique and different from the loyalist chapters have become tired, old and meh from a rules point of view and really fluffwise its a bit disjointed. I mean... all these daemon engines are a big part of the fluff now (they never used to be really) but the normal marines use normal armour, normal weapons with the occasional 'daemon weapon'. You'd think it'd be a lot easier for a warpsmith to craft an improved daemon forged terminator armour suit, daemonic bolter ammo thats risky to use but more potent etc...

IMO GW should leave the basic stuff as it is that makes them 'marines' rhinos, preds, bolters etc... and actually bring all the chaos stuff more higher up and spend some time to make them truly unique.

At the risk of turning this into a wishlist thread,

Why not give all marines a daemon forge armour upgrade so they gain something like FnP but reduces another stat like I or Ld and create kits that make the models stand out like the DV models do.

New god and even undivided psychic lores that have some silly good powers that literally turn your sorcerer into a spawn if he fails them etc...

Why are cultists crap IG.... there should be baked in rules where they infiltrate and/or come on again when dead... CSM have thousands of these followers and send them in as massed cannon fodder... they should not be taken because you need two units of troops to take a helldrake, obilts and a black mace daemon prince. You should be rewarded with inf, coming back etc the bigger the unit is.

Why not have some cool army wide system whereby if you have all khorne units something good happens but also bad, but likewise if you have a mix other stuff happens good and bad or maybe just a majority.... e.g. you have 3 units of plague marines and a nurgle daemon price but some unmarked obilts and khorne bikers.... you army is said to be nurge focussed so maybe the firs turn your army gets stealth from all the flies and dirty fog however any non nurgle units in the army count as in difficult terrain first turn or make it even more simple... khorne units get furious charge but -1 bs so long as there isnt a unit of another mark within 12"... etc etc... its not hard to add some serious unique flavour without having marine style tactical traits or relying on formations

They need to carve CSM into the evil tyrannical we'll do anything because we dont care army they should be. yes this can be powerful but also risky

totgeboren
09-05-2016, 12:44
I think GW have always had a culture of CSM should not 'just be like' loyalists because in addition they have all this extra stuff:
marks, daemon engines, cultists, daemons, cult troops etc etc etc that makes up for it (although it doesn't, at least any more)

to make them the same e.g. oh you have all these traits and weapons AND all the above... thats just not going to happen.


The whine in large parts comes from CSM once having their own thing they were good at. Loyalists had their assault cannons, Razorbacks, ATSKNF and so on, not to mention getting 4(!) full codices at the same time. This was while CSM instead had Marks, daemon engines, cultists, daemons, cult troops etc etc etc.

Then came the 4ed CSM book which removed +2 S power weapons, Chaos Armour, AV13 Dreadnoughts and Legion special rules to mention just a few things, because "they were too powerful" according to the designers.
Fast forward a few months and the next SM codex hits, giving them Relic Blades, Artificer Armour, Ironclads and Chapter Tactics and more, while not removing anything powerful from the old book.

CSM player will never seize to whine until for example these things are returned to the army.

Spiney Norman
09-05-2016, 12:52
You know, if you weren't just so angry about posting relating to the Chaos codices I may have some sympathy for you. I however do not and will not. And quite frankly i hope they never update Chaos just to spite you.

Or even a 'Dark Eldar' style update where they take an already poor codex and make it even worse...

Daenerys Targaryen
09-05-2016, 14:36
There does seem to be something about certain CSM fans that makes them more entitled and whiny than those of other factions. Tyranids, SoB and Orks also don't have it great, not even mentioning Squat, and you don't see their fans popping up in every thread lamenting an older edition of their codex and the current situation every time all the time.
I mean, CSM could use some attention but come on, this is just embarrassing.
All those armies have pretty awful rules. At least they have nearly complete model ranges that look great. We're actually bordering on Sisters of Bitter levels of model range rot at this point...

Show me another army besides SoB who have an equal amount of 10-15+ year old Finecrap kits, hybrid conversion packs, and missing options & entire units.

Sure, DE lost all their special characters, and that's BS.
But it's a tiny part of their actual codex, and overall, they have a fully plastic range, that's also one of the best looking in the game! I hope that GW does give them some Special Character love in the future.

However, they can wait in line for that. The fact that our entire model is at the exact same point theirs was at prior to their complete overhaul means we should take priority.

I honestly don't care about getting rules that are pants-on-head stupidly OP as Vanillas/Eldar/Tau.
I do however firmly believe that we deserve a proper model range, and rules that at least allow us to build armies that are congruent to our background!

A.T.
09-05-2016, 15:37
We're actually bordering on Sisters of Bitter levels of model range rot at this point...26 individual pewter models, an incomplete set of forgeworld rhino doors, and a hybrid metal rhino accessory kit?

Daenerys Targaryen
09-05-2016, 16:42
26 individual pewter models, an incomplete set of forgeworld rhino doors, and a hybrid metal rhino accessory kit?
At least your basic Troops still exist...
Note too that no more basic CSM kit means we also technically no longer have the basic kit for both Thousand Sons & Noise Marines either

And Possessed + now single Biker kits & upgrade kit are no longer available.

A.T.
09-05-2016, 17:00
At least your basic Troops still exist...You know full well that the CSM troops becoming sold out is a prelude to a reboxing or new set.

insectum7
09-05-2016, 18:40
There does seem to be something about certain CSM fans that makes them more entitled and whiny than those of other factions. Tyranids, SoB and Orks also don't have it great, not even mentioning Squat, and you don't see their fans popping up in every thread lamenting an older edition of their codex and the current situation every time all the time.

The Eldar voice was pretty loud for a while, though I haven't heard much on that front for a couple years . . .


Just like WFB Chaos lost its appeal when they separated Demons from the codex. Once there is a reunited codex, and some rule tweaks you'll see the difference.
I'm a DE player and DA player, I know all about either receiving the rough stick or nothing but squats, see "Asdrubael Vect" or in fact don't see him, his rules or a new model...ever.
Everyone gets their turn, only Vanilla marines get the real special treatment, and maybe Tau. We're use to it, but we have the better backgrounds, storys, and themes.

Vanilla marines are always solid, but I wouldn't say always 'special'. There have definitely been times where BA, SW and in 5th GK seemed to get bonuses with little sense.



The whine in large parts comes from CSM once having their own thing they were good at. Loyalists had their assault cannons, Razorbacks, ATSKNF and so on, not to mention getting 4(!) full codices at the same time. This was while CSM instead had Marks, daemon engines, cultists, daemons, cult troops etc etc etc.

Then came the 4ed CSM book which removed +2 S power weapons, Chaos Armour, AV13 Dreadnoughts and Legion special rules to mention just a few things, because "they were too powerful" according to the designers.
Fast forward a few months and the next SM codex hits, giving them Relic Blades, Artificer Armour, Ironclads and Chapter Tactics and more, while not removing anything powerful from the old book.

CSM player will never seize to whine until for example these things are returned to the army.

I will say that Space Marines getting Obliterators +1 was a really, really dumb thing that just shouldn't have happened. I think there are pro's and cons about the splitting of Daemons into their own faction, but at least Daemonology allows them to be summoned into the army again, and allies has improved that situation too. Khorne Daemonkin is like a blast from the past, which is great.

totgeboren
09-05-2016, 19:52
I will say that Space Marines getting Obliterators +1 was a really, really dumb thing that just shouldn't have happened. I think there are pro's and cons about the splitting of Daemons into their own faction, but at least Daemonology allows them to be summoned into the army again, and allies has improved that situation too. Khorne Daemonkin is like a blast from the past, which is great.

Yeah, summoning is really nice for the theme, but Daemonology is yet one more rather good example of why CSM players are whining.
Daemons (note, not CSM) of course can summon without suffering Perils a bit easier than CSM, but who are the best summoners in the game? Space Marines of course with their 2+ Warp harnessing.
It's exactly things like that that keep CSM player being pissed off and constantly whining until everyone else's ears/eyes bleed. Add something extremely thematically fitting for CSM, but give them no aid at all in using it, while giving SM the perfect tools to use it without any risk.

If GW keeps doing things this (making SM better than CSM at things CSM should be better at) CSM players will not be happy, and it's understandable.
Though I understand if everyone else is mighty tired of having like half of all thread devolve into CSM whine-fests.

A.T.
09-05-2016, 20:09
...because "they were too powerful" according to the designers.Can that be attributed to any designer / interview specifically?
http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2009/09/15/the-glory-of-chaos/
http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2009/09/10/differences-of-opinion/

insectum7
09-05-2016, 20:23
Yeah, summoning is really nice for the theme, but Daemonology is yet one more rather good example of why CSM players are whining.
Daemons (note, not CSM) of course can summon without suffering Perils a bit easier than CSM, but who are the best summoners in the game? Space Marines of course with their 2+ Warp harnessing.

Haha, yes. That's a totally legit complaint, and SM really shouldn't have access to Maelific in the first place.



It's exactly things like that that keep CSM player being pissed off and constantly whining until everyone else's ears/eyes bleed. Add something extremely thematically fitting for CSM, but give them no aid at all in using it, while giving SM the perfect tools to use it without any risk.

If GW keeps doing things this (making SM better than CSM at things CSM should be better at) CSM players will not be happy, and it's understandable.
Though I understand if everyone else is mighty tired of having like half of all thread devolve into CSM whine-fests.

Right, overall it's a behavior that needlessly strengthens loyalist marines, while also diluting what would otherwise be a draw to collect Chaos armies. It's totally clear how it might happen from a business standpoint, since loyalist marines are just incredibly popular and it would make sense to give them more to collect. But good villains are important to have in a setting, and a good setting helps keep a brand alive.

totgeboren
09-05-2016, 20:25
Can that be attributed to any designer / interview specifically?
http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2009/09/15/the-glory-of-chaos/
http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2009/09/10/differences-of-opinion/

I think it was in a WD where Jervis talked about the new design direction of 'less is more' and trying to avoid no-brainer choices like the Dark Blade. That 'new design direction' only covered CSM and DA, then they realised no one liked it so they went all out with the following SM codex instead. And CSM are still basically stuck with that 4ed codex of less-is-more, only with some slight tweaking and the addition of some extra negative rules (Champion of Chaos... why u do dis GW? :( )

But I don't remember the exact issue. It could even be that my brain just added what Jervis said in the WD together with the changes I saw in the CSM codex and made up some sort of argument from that, which I am now remembering as fact.
It was what, almost 10 years ago (and as said, we are still stuck with what is basically the same codex, just with dinobots added)?

Daenerys Targaryen
09-05-2016, 20:32
You know full well that the CSM troops becoming sold out is a prelude to a reboxing or new set.
1. They've already been re-boxed to 32's. If they're truly coming out with a new set, then a) it's about *********** time, and b) it'd be better to bring them out alongside a new codex, as otherwise there is no hope of fixing their many, many issues, the most glaring of all being that we lack 7th ed level options!!
This is also my biggest fear regarding the heavily rumored new 1kSons: they're current rules are unplayable, in large part because they have 0 options! (would it really kill GW to give them a freaking Heavy Bolter or sorcerous Kai Gun?!)

Princing alone can't fix Chaos, when what the army needs most of all are actual upgrades that can compete with the rest of the game!

2. Possessed have been "sold out", for months now.

3. It was mostly a joke. And I did say that we were nearly closing in SoB levels of model range holes - not that we were outright worse off. (though it is technically 'easier' for SoB to build their upgrades, as they can still buy individual options - a 4x Autocannon Havoc squad for example is only $220 from GW!)


Obviously something is happening. However, we have now seen that;
- Possessed
- CSM's
- single Biker
- Bike upgrade pack
and by default, now 1ksons + Noise Marines are no longer for sale.

That's a pretty decent chunk of one of GW's 'Big 4' armies - especially when it's the probably the single most important army from a background perspective.
Humorously, CSM's are now racing Sisters for being the single hardest army to collect. ;)

A.T.
09-05-2016, 20:37
But I don't remember the exact issue. It could even be that my brain just added what Jervis said in the WD together with the changes I saw in the CSM codex and made up some sort of argument from that, which I am now remembering as fact.I ask because I see pretty much exactly those words over and over of late. Some kind of pervasive dogma - i've even been seeing the 'we are worse off than the sisters' stuff appearing on the facebook page recently.

Though i'm sure some bits of the 3.5 codex were deliberately nerfed, like the siren prince power.

Lord Damocles
09-05-2016, 21:07
I think it was in a WD
...
But I don't remember the exact issue.
Given that this is the sort of thing which would cause Chaos players to mess their pants, if there was such a statement available from White Dwarf, I would expect it to be widely quoted and easily available with a Google search.

malisteen
09-05-2016, 22:16
While I don't expect an update, I am hopeful. Our basic marine sprue is pretty out of date, and Dark Vengeance showed GW was capable of a much better and more evocative take on Chaos Marines way back at the start of 6th edition.

That said, I agree that without a new codex, or at least some updated rules in white dwarf to patch into the existing book, new chaos marine infantry would likely be pretty display pieces but not much else. As it is, we're an army of plasma guns and autocannons in a world of D-scythes and Grave cannons; an army of AV12 walkers in a world of monstrous creatures and super-heavy vehicles; an army of melee infantry without functional assault transports; an army largely without deployment & delivery options beyond 'hoof it' or 'rhino'. The 4e book honestly, apart from being rather rushed, wasn't all that bad for its time, it just compared hideously poorly to its predecessor, and suffered badly from all the daemon units being removed without really anything meaningful being added back in their place. But again, for all that, it wasn't terrible for its time. But the game has completely outgrown early 4th edition paradigms, and Chaos Marines have been left behind, the 6th ed book doing little to move us forward. Short of some hefty reworking, there's just not much in the way of compelling gameplay to be had from our book, especially from units like basic CSMs or Havocs.

But I'll keep my fingers crossed, and even without new rules I'll likely buy a box or two if this comes to pass. My CSMs spend more time on the display shelf than the gaming table anyway these days, so I can only be so upset about it.

Losing Command
10-05-2016, 01:33
Looking at how the codex updates have been handled the last year, a major overhaul seems unlikely. Minor tweaks and a bunch of formations seems to be the thing they do nowadays.

malisteen
10-05-2016, 02:27
Yeah, rules wise, that's probably the best that could reasonably be hoped for. Probably won't be enough to turn things around for most of these units, but, you know, so be it. If we get new basic trooper models, I'm not going to complain about that, even without any rules update.

totgeboren
10-05-2016, 03:02
Looking at how the codex updates have been handled the last year, a major overhaul seems unlikely. Minor tweaks and a bunch of formations seems to be the thing they do nowadays.

And if this is what we get CSM players will continue to whine. What is needed is a unit-by-unit rework like they did with the Eldar (though hopefully not as op). With them it's obvious they went through each unit and asked themselves what it was supposed to be able to do, and if it needed some special rules to reinforce that.
Being stuck with a tweak of what is essentially a 4ed codex stripped of all deployment options is hardly a situation that gives you happy customers.

Daenerys Targaryen
10-05-2016, 14:43
And if this is what we get CSM players will continue to whine. What is needed is a unit-by-unit rework like they did with the Eldar (though hopefully not as op). With them it's obvious they went through each unit and asked themselves what it was supposed to be able to do, and if it needed some special rules to reinforce that.
Being stuck with a tweak of what is essentially a 4ed codex stripped of all deployment options is hardly a situation that gives you happy customers.
I wonder if it's too much to ask for a new special/heavy weapon or three? We're the only army in the game who are still using the exact same special/heavy weapon options that we did in 3rd edition! I mean gak, even Sisters have received more wargear than we have!

I'd kill for a Heavy flamer... and where the hell is all that heretical tech from the Dark Mech gone too?

Yet Loyalists now have Heresy-era technology, than the army that's supposed to be all about ancient, lost & forbidden wargear?! Seriously, WTF?

Losing Command
10-05-2016, 15:02
Grav-guns are actually post-heresy weaponry. During the HH the original STC designs were used that weren't actually meant to be used as weapons, but more likely for things like securing things in zero-G enviroments. One tech-priest weaponized the STC and used more easily aquerable materials to build it, but at the time most other tech-priest considered it close to heretical.

About the possibility of re-boxing, it could also be that GW is doing a rebox with the rank and file spikey boys in the same style as dire avengers and all Lotr infantery back in the day : same price, half the amount of models :evilgrin:

A.T.
10-05-2016, 15:08
Yet Loyalists now have Heresy-era technologyMakes sense, they won the war. They have the forgeworlds, they have Mars, they have all the weapons and vehicles left strewn across the battlefields during the retreat, and almost all the worlds of the Imperium and the STCs and dark age of technology lost thereon.

blackcherry
10-05-2016, 15:29
One day Daenerys Targaryen and WarsmithGarathor94 may experience the happiness that comes from realising that hijacking most threads to turn them into the same 'Chaos sucks 4eva' topic doesn't do anything to change how things work.

If Chaos aren't your bag for now, put them on the shelf and play another faction/game. Unless you want to write to GW politely, posting on the forums you do the same opinions over and over doesn't do anything other than cause yourselves and others grief, no matter how legitimate you may feel your complaints are.

As a CSM player, I just tweak what I can, play with counts as stuff (using the chaos lists we have available) to create a themed army and have fun. Also I have a life, supportive relationships and a lack of overwhelming self loathing.

Perhaps it's linked.

daveNYC
10-05-2016, 16:35
Makes sense, they won the war. They have the forgeworlds, they have Mars, they have all the weapons and vehicles left strewn across the battlefields during the retreat, and almost all the worlds of the Imperium and the STCs and dark age of technology lost thereon.

It's actually a pretty big departure from the grimdark flavor of the setting. The Imperium, for all it's power, is at best, stagnating, and most days is actively decaying in power. A world lost here, a scrap of knowledge dropped on the floor and trod to shreds there, Forgeworlds substituting dogma for actual knowledge such that even minor improvements are considered sins against God, never mind true paradigm shifting innovations.

Within that setting, handing out new post-heresy tech and old heresy era weapons is not particularly flavorful. Additionally, it breaks some of the contrast between Chaos and the Imperium. Freedom to innovate and build (although in the service of evil) vs. hidebound stagnation and ignorance (though in the service of good). If Chaos doesn't innovate and move beyond where it was in 30k, and the Imperium is developing new technology and recovering old on a regular basis, then Chaos just looks like a bunch of ****** and the Imperium becomes slightly more of a straight 'good guy'. And that weakens the setting as a whole.

A.T.
10-05-2016, 16:56
If Chaos doesn't innovate and move beyond where it was in 30k, and the Imperium is developing new technology and recovering old on a regular basis, then Chaos just looks like a bunch of ****** and the Imperium becomes slightly more of a straight 'good guy'. And that weakens the setting as a whole.That is how the setting has always been though, or at least how chaos were presented back in 2nd edition.
The Imperium does advance. It's glacially slow at times and bound by tradition but an example would be thunder hammers - dreadnought weaponry in (pre-forgeworld) 30k, shrunk over the millennia by advances in technology.

Chaos did not have innovative technology, or wondrous lost technology. but rather outdated technology held together as much by daemonic corruption as any efforts of the dark mechanicus. They are not a rival faction racing ahead but rather a twisted shadow of humanities past ambitions.


What they do/should/used to have is more of a nod towards the daemon-forged stuff. As it stands possessed vehicles are pretty unremarkable and squads in various stages of physical and technological mutation are not strongly represented, even Favius Biles enhancements are limited in scope.

insectum7
10-05-2016, 17:20
It's actually a pretty big departure from the grimdark flavor of the setting. The Imperium, for all it's power, is at best, stagnating, and most days is actively decaying in power. A world lost here, a scrap of knowledge dropped on the floor and trod to shreds there, Forgeworlds substituting dogma for actual knowledge such that even minor improvements are considered sins against God, never mind true paradigm shifting innovations.

Since the dawn of the setting the technological knowledge potentially uncovered in Space Hulks is worth sending entire companies of marines on terribly hazardous missions. The Imperium does search for new technology, find it, and put it to use. The Imperium progresses, it just does so in a totally backward way.

The Imperium has the infrastructure to aid in industrial progression. Chaos has the Warp, and uses it to fashion Daemon Engines of various sorts, or create Obliterators, Posessed, etc. Chaos uncovers cursed artifacts and gifts from their gods.

Raven1
11-05-2016, 00:01
As much as I want this to be something. I just don't think it is. The regular codex sold out a year ago leaving just the small format /paperback in stock. They seem to be just letting it get slowly sold off. To what end I don't know, but I would be on anything too soon. With GW still forging strong with AoS and new boxed sets/games like Warhammer Quest. I think the 2nd rate armies of WH40K are just going to have to wait this edition out and will get something revised in 8th (after Space Marines, Eldar, and probably Tau).

I find it interesting after so many years an army that dominated an edition now collects dust on the shelf while it's regular stock becomes unavailable.

Rai_st
11-05-2016, 01:52
You know what - I love my rocket powered space dragon and his dinosaur buddies. I love the fact that all 3 of em spit plasma and don't take crap from anyone.

I love the fact that my poor delusional cultist challenges a Commisar captain to a duel while the helbrute they are hanging with rampages into a APC.

I love love love my fallen dark angels hanging out with cultists and space dragons and dinosaurs and gibbering spawn.

It's a visually stunning army with lots of character. Something missing from a lot of the so called better codexes. Enjoy the codex we have, crack a beer and make some memories.

/soapbox

zendral
11-05-2016, 15:49
You know what - I love my rocket powered space dragon and his dinosaur buddies. I love the fact that all 3 of em spit plasma and don't take crap from anyone.

I love the fact that my poor delusional cultist challenges a Commisar captain to a duel while the helbrute they are hanging with rampages into a APC.

I love love love my fallen dark angels hanging out with cultists and space dragons and dinosaurs and gibbering spawn.

It's a visually stunning army with lots of character. Something missing from a lot of the so called better codexes. Enjoy the codex we have, crack a beer and make some memories.

/soapbox

It's funny you say that, since you've pretty much just described GW's most updated version of their take on chaos marines. Which is fine and dandy, that is the most recent love for it after all. You even have a few formations to help with that. You forget chaos marines were more than fallen angels, cultists, and dinobots. Chaos marines encompassed more than the crimson slaughter/renegade theme. It's easier to crack a beer when your vision aligns with the newest and greatest, while the codex after all these years does little to update and take care of the rest of chaos (cults, legions, etc.).

blackcherry
11-05-2016, 16:57
It's easier to crack a beer when your vision aligns with the newest and greatest, while the codex after all these years does little to update and take care of the rest of chaos (cults, legions, etc.).

Cults exist in the current book - just not as people want them to be (super overpowered with special snowflake weapons). Legions have been dead in the background for years - with the exception of The Black Legion and perhaps the Word Bearers, all mass scale legion organisation has disintegrated. It's just that GW made it explicit in the last two codex's rather than just having hints that people can skip over. But you can still make themed legions. Just not overpowered super special snowflake ones.

The idea at one point GW made a perfect Chaos Codex where all the legions and cults were perfectly represented is a lie that that many people on the internet seem to have run with over the years. Having played during that period, people just optimized and chose the most overpowered list as is done today.

daveNYC
11-05-2016, 17:44
Since the dawn of the setting the technological knowledge potentially uncovered in Space Hulks is worth sending entire companies of marines on terribly hazardous missions. The Imperium does search for new technology, find it, and put it to use. The Imperium progresses, it just does so in a totally backward way.

The Imperium has the infrastructure to aid in industrial progression. Chaos has the Warp, and uses it to fashion Daemon Engines of various sorts, or create Obliterators, Posessed, etc. Chaos uncovers cursed artifacts and gifts from their gods.

The Imperium has the physical infrastructure, but their entire mental space is set to stagnation. Their progress doesn't come from dedicated R&D efforts, they come about because someone rebelled against the system, wasn't shot immediately, and the Mechanicum spent three centuries reviewing the changes and finally decided that they weren't heretical and could be used. Any progress the Imperium makes is despite it's best efforts, not because of them.

Space Hulk technology grabs are a seperate issue. That's not new tech, that's old tech (again, keeping with the theme of the Imperium stagnating, as the best technology they can find is stuff they made centuries ago and then lost the plans for), and it's old tech that they will spend centuries determining if it is 'legitimate' and even then probably only be able to produce a sub-standard replica of, and that's assuming they can even do that much.

insectum7
11-05-2016, 19:56
The Imperium has the physical infrastructure, but their entire mental space is set to stagnation. Their progress doesn't come from dedicated R&D efforts, they come about because someone rebelled against the system, wasn't shot immediately, and the Mechanicum spent three centuries reviewing the changes and finally decided that they weren't heretical and could be used. Any progress the Imperium makes is despite it's best efforts, not because of them.

Space Hulk technology grabs are a seperate issue. That's not new tech, that's old tech (again, keeping with the theme of the Imperium stagnating, as the best technology they can find is stuff they made centuries ago and then lost the plans for), and it's old tech that they will spend centuries determining if it is 'legitimate' and even then probably only be able to produce a sub-standard replica of, and that's assuming they can even do that much.

Nobody said Imperial technological progression moved very fast :) Given 10,000 years since the Heresy there isn't much to show for it.

LotusCorgi
11-05-2016, 23:55
It cannot be overstated how bad the basic marine kit is. Lazy and uninspired. The sculptor (not sure who) chose to outfit the entire squad in mk.IV power armor pants despite the mk.VII helmets and wider range of torso armor. Why would they subject our rank and file troop to this glaring historical error?? Any new kits are welcome but with out rules or a coherent state of the game they are just space on the shelf.

Daenerys Targaryen
12-05-2016, 00:46
It cannot be overstated how bad the basic marine kit is. Lazy and uninspired. The sculptor (not sure who) chose to outfit the entire squad in mk.IV power armor pants despite the mk.VII helmets and wider range of torso armor. Why would they subject our rank and file troop to this glaring historical error?? Any new kits are welcome but with out rules or a coherent state of the game they are just space on the shelf.
The "current" sculpts were great... back in 2000/01 when they were originally designed & released.

The mishmash of armour isn't a huge deal-breaker, as Chaos Marines have to scrape and salvage as much as they can. While more modern Renegades would obviously have more modernised equipment.
Something other than mk.IV legs would have been sweet, but then again, the kit is 15 ******* years old now!!

Our entire range, minus the bare handful of 6th ed release kits, seriously needs to be burned to the ground and overhauled.

zendral
12-05-2016, 02:21
Cults exist in the current book - just not as people want them to be (super overpowered with special snowflake weapons). Legions have been dead in the background for years - with the exception of The Black Legion and perhaps the Word Bearers, all mass scale legion organisation has disintegrated. It's just that GW made it explicit in the last two codex's rather than just having hints that people can skip over. But you can still make themed legions. Just not overpowered super special snowflake ones.

The idea at one point GW made a perfect Chaos Codex where all the legions and cults were perfectly represented is a lie that that many people on the internet seem to have run with over the years. Having played during that period, people just optimized and chose the most overpowered list as is done today.

Not saying they didn't exist, but they certainly shadow in comparison to what they deserve (plague and noise marines debatable). But you would be wrong in regards to "dead in the background". The Black library has done a wonderful job of keeping them alive just fine with many examples. The codex may not scream about what sections of unified legions still exist, but the continued source of inspiration for the idea continues with their novels. So no, not dead.

Tarrell
12-05-2016, 03:36
I think GW need to take a page from the Gaunts Ghosts books, take the Blood Pack Corps, well trained and armed cultists, twisted yes, but fight the imperial armies man to man tank to tank. Also Dan described some awesome ideas they could use, bubble cockpit spider tanks spitting las like rounds, Tank formations that match the Imperals finest.
While it is true Chaos Space Marines favor the post 30k tech, all their cultists should be equipped the same and imperial army, using stolen tech.
More crazy looking evil demon machines yes please, but no to demon tank conversions that look stupid and have worse rules.

R Man
12-05-2016, 05:18
Cults exist in the current book - just not as people want them to be (super overpowered with special snowflake weapons). Legions have been dead in the background for years - with the exception of The Black Legion and perhaps the Word Bearers, all mass scale legion organisation has disintegrated.

Which Codex is this in? I have the 6th edition Chaos Codex and it says nothing specific about the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, or Thousand Sons disintegrating. Not that it does not go into the disintegration spiel, but this is fairly general, non-specific fluff. In addition, other parts of the following text make frequent references to the Legions as coherent entities.

I guess this s indicative of the lazy way the Chaos Codex was constructed.

Raven1
12-05-2016, 08:12
I don't think it actually says that the Chaos legions broke apart just that the fluff went from focusing on the major legions fighting in semi-coherent legions with specific exceptions. I believe world eaters, thousands sons come to mind. However, I think a majority of the traitor legions have their primarch a live and we'll even in demon form to lead their legion. I just think GW needs to take a solid stance on the coex/fluff. Either Chaos marines are terrors of old with the support of the gods of chaos, demons, the dark mechanicus, and forgeworlds eclipsed into the eye of terror or they are disparate warbands of recently fallen marines. I think the last two incarnations of the codex have taken the worst of both rules and fluff wise and sort jammed them together and called it a day. I mean on one hand they say we'll they don't have the support of loyalist forgeworlds so they don't have good tech, but the same time the dark mechanicus produce the defiler, heldrake, forge fiend and his twin brother. So they have support in a twisted monstrous sort of way.

I however do find it funny in a sad sort of way that CSM was toned way back into a less is more codex, and them the heldrake happened and they were like well crap they something good better get rid of that too.

I won't get into the fact they have needed Obliterator continously every codex since their inception and then gave loyalists a better version. Took away a rule made for raptors and gave it away (for free to other armies), took lash of slaanesh from CSM and gave modified move troops to loyalist, oh and CSM pay a premium for additional rules on troops through cult marines were as loyalist get those for free...but you know whatever.

blackcherry
12-05-2016, 09:39
It cannot be overstated how bad the basic marine kit is. Lazy and uninspired. The sculptor (not sure who) chose to outfit the entire squad in mk.IV power armor pants despite the mk.VII helmets and wider range of torso armor. Why would they subject our rank and file troop to this glaring historical error?? Any new kits are welcome but with out rules or a coherent state of the game they are just space on the shelf.

I mean this in the nicest way, but very few people care about armour marks and 'historical accuracy' as long as the models looks good. It also predates the miniature designers caring about if armour marks. If it helps rationalise your somewhat obsessive behavior (whatever next - the horns didn't appear until the 36th millennium *rabble rabble rabble*?) then just say they are grabbing whatever armour they can find.

malisteen
12-05-2016, 13:24
review of modern chaos legions:

Current fluff of original traitor legions, in terms of coherent military structure and not individual survivors, is:

Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus: wiped out, only a few straggling warbands remain (note Black Legion != SoH)

Alpha Legion: split into an unknown number of individual cells, level of coordination between them unknown

Iron Warriors: while individual IW warlords are fractious and untrusting, jockying against each other for power and favor, overall the Legion is still coherent. Peturabo still actively directs the legion's overall strategy, and individual warlords still respect his authority. The Iron Warriors are definitely still a Legion.

Word Bearers: accounts vary on how united this legion is. Some sources say their primarch still actively directs the Legion, which remains generally coherent as a singular military body. Other sources say he has sealed himself away, leaving the warlords of the Word Bearers to argue over the intent of his teachings and split into various doctrinal factions. However, even these latter sources still have the Word Bearers operating in a handful of large subsets rather than thousands of tiny splinters, and the Word Bearers are actively evangelical, more successful in recruiting than perhaps any chaos legion other than the Black, so whether they're one huge Legions or several moderately sized ones, the Word Bearers can still be thought of as a legion.

Night Lords: shattered into splinter forces, which mostly operate as pirate & mercenary groups. However, the legion is still capable of re-uniting when circumstances involve the Legion as a whole (as when a holo-vid of the primarchs death was found). Additionally, several more successful NL warlords have united multiple warbands under their banner and thus operate with a military strength and organization greater than that of a single warband, most notably Krieg Acerbus.

World Eaters: shattered into splinter forces, many of which fight as mercenaries for other forces, but still capable of re-uniting when their daemon primarch personally leads daemonic incursions into realspace. Only the most foolish or suicidal chaos warlords would attempt to deny World Eater mercenaries the opportunity to fight at Angron's side when he calls.

Emperor's Children: shattered into splinter forces, though there several more successful EC warlords who have united multiple warbands under their banner and thus operate with a military strength and organization greater than that of a single warband - most notably Lucious the Eternal.

Death Guard: As with the Iron Warriors, while there is conflict and jockeying between individual warlords, the Death Guard's daemon primarch remains in control of the Legion itself, which has kept them mostly coherent as a military body through the long centuries in the Eye. Accounts do vary on how active Mortarion is at waging war outside of the Eye, with older fluff describing him as slothful and lethargic. This fluff had Typhus as chafing under Mortarion's perceived inactivity, breaking off with a group of like minded warlords to wage war on the Imperium. Newer fluff, however, has a more active Mortarion, one who still invades realspace, with Typhus as a favored son leading assaults at his primarch's behest. Still, whether one coherent force or two, either way the Death Guard are capable of operating at a strength considerably above that of a single Warband.

Thousand Sons: among the smallest of the Traitor Legions at the end of the Scouring, and ravaged by mutation after that, the Thousand Sons then suffered the Rubric, with a number of their most competent surviving members banished for taking part. Some of those banished sorcerers operate warbands of their own, but most are mercenaries for other chaos factions, primarily the Black Legion. There is remarkably little fluff for what Magnus has done with the remaining portion of his Legion. If he's spent the centuries since then recruiting, then the Thousand Sons may be able to operate at Legion force, albeit with mostly non-original membership. Otherwise, the entire force under his command could easily be smaller than that available to, say, Krieg Acerbus or Lucious the Eternal. Either way, larger than an individual warband, but possibly not large enough to really call them a Legion.


Then there are post-heresy Chaos Legions:

Black Legion: founded by former Sons of Horus, exiled Thousand Sons, former Emperor's Children, and others, The Legion of Legions has grown huge, absorbing disaffected members of every Heresy Era Legion, warriors who have grown weary of inter-chaos strife and the endless games of the Dark Gods and long for a return to the time when they fought for something greater than themselves and threatened the very Imperium itself. The Black Legion has also been the most successful at recruiting new chaos marines through the centuries, whether through corrupting loyalists or through stealing uncorrupted loyalist geneseed with which to create chaos marines from scratch. In addition, they have negotiated pacts, alliances, and concessions with nearly every other major chaos power in the eye and without. Despite not being an original Traitor Legion they are the largest modern chaos marine force, and exemplify the modern Chaos Legion organizational structure adopted by pretty much all modern chaos legions, where the operation and outfitting of each warband's forces are left primarily to their own warlord. Legion command and sub-command delegate missions to individual warlords or groups of warlords according to their abilities, with a full muster only during large realspace incursions. Between such Crusades, and when not assigned to specific missions, Warlords are left to pursue their own agendas, as long as they don't conflict with those of the Legion as a whole. This loose organization allows the strong to thrive and the weak to fall, and doesn't tie up huge amounts of resources in organization and management.

Red Coursairs: an upstart force created from several renegade marine chapters that turned traitor together, with others flocking to their banner in the years that followed their initial defeat and disappearance into the Maelstrom, Huron's Coursairs are a major force to consider, of a scale at least on par with the forces of Lucious the Eternal or Krieg Acerbus. As such, they can be thought of as a Chaos Legion in their own right.


So all together, there are several large Chaos Legions that remain in operation as coherent, if loose, military organizations, including the Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Death Guard. In addition, there are several groups that, while perhaps not at what one would consider 'Legion' strength, still operate well above the level of an individual warband, including Lucius the Eternal's Emperor's Children, Krieg Acerbus's Night Lords, and Huron Blackheart's Red Coursairs. Beyond that, there are forces whose strength and organization level are unknown (the Alpha Legion, Magnus's Thousand Sons), and legions that have been splintered into individual warbands, but are still capable of uniting, albeit temporarily, under particular circumstances, including the World Eaters and the Night Lords Proper. And even many warbands splinters from the broken legions, while operating entirely independently, still think of themselves as Legion forces and employ forces and tactics distinct to their Legion of origin. And many of these individual Warbands are still larger in size than entire chapters of loyalist marines, several of which get their own variant rules or even entire codeces.

Overall, while in their day to day operations most Chaos Lords DO operate independently, and there IS plenty of cross-polination from mercenary forces even between ostensibly original-legion forces, there is still plenty of narrative support for legion themed rules structures if rules writers wish to bring them back - though I don't personally advocate for them, at least not at the army level (I'd rather see a legion-themed vet skill system for HQs and Elite units).

Again, Chaos Legion themes are not my preferred take on Chaos Space Marines, not in the 40k era. However, they were a coherent and widely embraced paradigm, one that Games Workshop has moved away from without providing a coherent alternative vision. As a whole, the chaos marine faction lacks such a vision these days. The concepts thrown together into the 4th and 6th ed chaos codeces are too indistinct, too disparate. As long as millennia old veterans and yesterdays renegades are represented by the same units, those units will fail to convey at least one of those well, and what we have right now fails to convey either properly, and since the removal of daemons off to their own codex it also fails to present a meaningfully distinct identity from various loyalist marine books.

Chaos Marines need a coherent vision. Personally, I would like to see a new vision, one distinct from both modern loyalist forces and 30k legion armies, one emphasizing how they've changed in the centuries since the Scouring, one that makes renegades and veterans different units, with different rules and stat lines, within the same armies, rewriting fluff to emphasize the rarity and power of ancient legionnairs, while also highlighting the need to rely on renegades, post heresy chaos marines, and mutant/cultist rabble to fill out numbers. An army that, in it's default configuration, would be mostly comprised of weaker & plainer generalist units, but with much stronger and more elaborate commanders, champions, and specialized elites.

But if GW is unable or unwilling to present a new vision, whether that or something else, then the least they could do is return to the last coherent vision the faction had, which is the Legions model. It wouldn't be my preferred way to take them, but it would at least ground the faction in a tangible identity that could be built off of, both narratively and mechanically.

Daenerys Targaryen
12-05-2016, 14:42
We deserve 'Legion Tactics' for the exact same reason that Loyalist scum *needed* their Chapter Tactics; forcing expensive, elite infantry to pay a further premium for their special rules doesn't work at a basic mechanical level anymore.
Weapons are far deadlier now, and there's more shooting than ever before. Forcing MEQ's into additional pts bloat just access rules that Xenos forces typically get baked into their base costs, simply leaves Marines in general at a massive disadvantage.

GW has realise that generalists, (which the basic core of the CSM army still are), requires a pts-break. Hence why Loyalists really don't pay for CT's, Combat Squads, ATSKNF, etc...
Unfortunately, GW has repeatedly left CSM's stuck firmly in 4th edition designs, forcing us to continue paying additional pts for every possible special rule & ability, while everyone else in the game gets those same abilities for free/deeply discounted.

Legion Tactics/Rules aren't a fanboy whinefest anymore. They're a necessity to simply make the army function at a basic level.

malisteen
12-05-2016, 15:18
Some sort of boost or points break is necessary, yes, because the massive increase in firepower over the course of 6th and 7th edition means that 'elite' marine equivalent and terminator equivalent profiles simply are not enough more durable than 'chaff' guard and gaunt profiles to justify the pre-existing point difference between them. The same is true for medium and heavy vehicles, as the proliferation of anti-tank weapons that ignore armor value outright (gause, D, grav, haywire) means points spent on armor value just do not carry the kind of return that they used to. And note that it's not JUST their free or heavily discounted ATSKNF, CS, & CT that make marines viable in the modern venue, but also formations that make their transports free ('free' is much closer to the appropriate cost for a land raider than 220 points is), as well as firepower upgrades from grav weapons that put marines on the leading edge of the (frankly unsustainable) arms race that has thrown this game so far out of balance.

However, that boost or points break does not necessarily need to take the form of legion tactics. That is the way to go if the designers adopt the Heresy Legion vision of chaos space marines, the one that predominated during the 3.5 heyday, but I personally feel that vision is insufficiently distinct from loyalist marines, and especially from 30k marines now that those rules exist as well. Especially when you consider that 3.5 could build a lot of its distinguishing identity off of daemon units that are no longer available for that purpose now that they're segregated off into their own codex.

Don't get me wrong, a return to the Legions paradigm would be a dramatic improvement over the current complete lack of coherent vision or identity, but I personally would prefer that the chaos marine faction be given more of a ground up re-work & re-imagining aiming at a new and more divergent identity, with the needed points breaks / power boosts being made based on that new identity.

Daenerys Targaryen
12-05-2016, 15:39
Honestly, I really don't want to see Chaos Marines take a sudden, huge shift and become something radically new & different just for the sake of being new and different... Their most iconic and well known identity is all about the Traitor Legions of the Horus Heresy, and the Long War that they've been fighting for 10,000 years.
When people think of Chaos Marines, the vast majority of us think of Iron Warriors, Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Alpha Legion, etc..., and especially of Abbadon and his Black Legion leading the charge out of the Eye of Terror

The background of the army ain't what's broke! GW doesn't need to radically rebuild the brand to make them relevant and different, they simply need to use the old 3.5ed template & 'modern' Marine rules as a guide.
They can still add in plenty of the 'weird, mutated, daemonic insanity' through the various cult units and their toys, along with our various vehicles.

But you can't change the core identity that Chaos Marines have been all about for 25+ years, which is firmly rooted in the original Traitor Legions.

malisteen
12-05-2016, 15:54
I less advocate it for the sake of being new and different and more for the sake of occupying a coherent place in the setting and narrative, which the 3.5 era chaos legions really don't when you take an honest look at them. Simply put, no Heresy Era chaos marine should be a common line grunt. For one, there shouldn't be enough of them for that - they lost the Heresy, they were hounded in the scouring, the slaughtered each other in the legion wars, they suffered terrible attrition learning to adapt to the Eye of Terror, and in the millennia since their ability to recruit and rebuild numbers has been dramatically more limited than that of the Imperium. There just shouldn't be many Heresy Legionnaires left, and those that are left should all be lords or high end veteran units on a tier with Grey Knight Paladins, not bog standard tactical marines.

At the same time, pure renegade armies offer even less distinction from loyalists (seriously, by the current cannon the Red Coursairs are far better represented, both mechanically and narratively, by the loyalist marine codex than the chaos marine book), and from the fluff it's just hard to buy independent renegade marines successfully establishing themselves in the Eye or the Maelstrom Even if they manage to avoid the more established and god-favored chaos legion forces that already occupy these areas, who by all rights should be desperate for the recruits and materials they could gain by canibilising any renegades they come across, the idea that they could instantly adapt to these supernaturally inhospitable areas without any aid or assistance or established power base and immediately turn around to be meaningful independent threats just doesn't work for me.

To my mind, neither bares close scrutiny, and pretending both can be both distinct and use the same rules is even more ludicrous. IMO, even a cursory examination of the fluff says these forces shouldn't be distinct, that they absolutely need each other to function, and that the faction would be far more coherent and functional if they were different units, with different rules, in the same armies (weaker, cheaper, generic line warriors vs. powerful, expensive, specialized elites & HQs). Such a change would simultaneously make the chaos marine faction make far, far more sense within the lore and provide a distinct core identity to build a faction that wouldn't just be loyalist marines ++ or --.

A.T.
12-05-2016, 16:06
But you can't change the core identity that Chaos Marines have been all about for 25+ years, which is firmly rooted in the original Traitor Legions.As someone who played chaos marines 25 years ago I have to say I remember them a little differently. The army book for the epic chaos marines was called "renegades" quite accurately.

Until 3.5 the forces of chaos were arranged firmly by god.

malisteen
12-05-2016, 16:14
Frankly, I think my view is more firmly rooted in the original traitor legions than the current nebulous non-committal identity of the faction. My version just acknowledges how those forces would have changed and adapted in the centuries since the heresy, and puts heresy veterans in their rightful place AS veterans - that of powerful elites & characters rather than common line grunts; the masters and commanders of the forces of chaos rather than their least and most expendable soldiers. In my version of chaos, there wouldn't BE renegade marine armies, renegade chapters would be cannibalized by warhosts commanded by an iron core of supernaturally empowered legion veterans. Those renegades would then form their lower ranks and recruitment base. Making renegades and veterans different tiers of the same armies would allow them to have different rules appropriate to their role and history in the setting. Rules for chaos veterans wouldn't be hamstrung by the need to make them low-end enough to serve as viable line troops, while rules for base renegades wouldn't have to be given over to weird rules and archaic tech.

Daenerys Targaryen
12-05-2016, 16:23
I think there's long been a huge misconception about CSM's and their ability to replace their losses honestly... At their core, they're still Space Marines; they still try and salvage the geneseed of their own fallen, and they'll steal it from defeated Loyalists & raid Imperial genestocks as well. (anyone recall Storm of Iron? The Iron Warriors literally make off with enough geneseed to create an entirely new Legion and then some!) Unlike Loyalists who now follow extremely strict guidelines, Chaos still goes all out abusing now-forbidden cloning techniques and will basically mass-produce clones. (as the IW's do in Dead Sky Black Sun)
Within the Warp itself, even death isn't permanent, as warriors who died thousands of years in the past, will suddenly find themselves thrown back into the eternal struggle... And that's aside from the fact of the whole, "10,000 years 'real time' may only be 2000-3000 years for Traitor warbands" shtick.

While some people may not like it, it's still been long established that many of the very same Traitors who fought on Terra, still fight on today, and not just exclusively as purely Lords or Chosen.

Raven1
12-05-2016, 16:28
Until 3.5 the forces of chaos were arranged firmly by god.

There were also the numerous Index Astartes articles that began to offer individual chapters and traitor legions their own special rules. When the 3.5 codex came out they incorporated those rules in part making some modifications and then of course added to them.

malisteen
12-05-2016, 16:34
Those articles were part of the build up to the 3.5 chaos book. They were already in the 3.5 period, iirc, coming in after the core rule changes that marked that semi-edition shift. The 3.0 period definitely falls into that category of alignment being the big distinguishing subthemes of the faction.

Raven1
12-05-2016, 19:38
Well it's certainly been years well more than a decade but I personally recall them differently. The index Astartes contained rules and fluff for the individual traitor legions and loyalist chapters. Additionally, when the 3.5 codex dropped it wasn't a copy and paste job. The rules were different between IA and 3.5, though they were mostly intact. I don't remember it being distinctively a build up for csm.

To post on topic the basic CSM boxed set is available once again. After being "sold out" and "no longer available." However, possessed are still "sold out" on the US site.

A.T.
12-05-2016, 22:22
To post on topic the basic CSM boxed set is available once again. After being "sold out" and "no longer available." However, possessed are still "sold out" on the US site.Still sold out in the UK.
Something similar happened with the recently sold out sisters in the US - they went, came back, and then went again soon after.

malisteen
13-05-2016, 01:04
As usual, the website availability tags are generally inaccurate and not a good predictor of releases. Ah, well. One day.

Tarrell
13-05-2016, 01:44
While I love the new cultists, I personally feel they represent a very small faction of the cultists in general.
I feel like apparatus mechanicus, Cultists need to be fully expanded/ explored. Back in the day artists would have jumped at this chance, fully exploring a Cultist force, corrupted imperial armys, still operating under strict doctrines, except warped and twisted. Most hobbyists just convert but would be nice to see some more troops and vehicles rather than just rabble militia forces.
CS definitely requires a new codex one re incorporating demons, with better designed rules. Currently its disappointing to collectors and honestly opponents too, as they lack any real challenge to defeat. (unless your a noob like me, then just have fun).

Latro_
13-05-2016, 09:13
While I love the new cultists, I personally feel they represent a very small faction of the cultists in general.
I feel like apparatus mechanicus, Cultists need to be fully expanded/ explored. Back in the day artists would have jumped at this chance, fully exploring a Cultist force, corrupted imperial armys, still operating under strict doctrines, except warped and twisted. Most hobbyists just convert but would be nice to see some more troops and vehicles rather than just rabble militia forces.

Army list wise you are aware of the army list in the back of IA13 right?

malisteen
13-05-2016, 13:59
My favorite cultist design is still the cultists from Dawn of War 2, what with the robes and armored chest pieces and trophy racks. I'd love to see a multipart kit of those.

Raven1
13-05-2016, 16:03
Heck yeah those guys are awesome

insectum7
13-05-2016, 19:44
My favorite cultist design is still the cultists from Dawn of War 2, what with the robes and armored chest pieces and trophy racks. I'd love to see a multipart kit of those.

But my favorite cultist quote is from DOW1.

In a feeble wail: "Enemies of the dark gods, BeeeWAAAARREEeee!!"

Lord Damocles
13-05-2016, 19:57
'Arghh! Mah Spleeen!'

LotusCorgi
13-05-2016, 20:10
I mean this in the nicest way, but very few people care about armour marks and 'historical accuracy' as long as the models looks good. It also predates the miniature designers caring about if armour marks. If it helps rationalise your somewhat obsessive behavior (whatever next - the horns didn't appear until the 36th millennium *rabble rabble rabble*?) then just say they are grabbing whatever armour they can find.

yes, yes, they called me mad! But seriously my fixation with the mk.VI robot pants has been fueled by the most recent raptor and chosen chaos models, all mostly corrupted mk.IV, and the newest SM marine kit which features at least three armor marks. All I'm asking for is what GW is capable of producing. It's what we are paying for. AND everyone knows horns were not used on helmets until the 35th millennium *rabble rabble rabble*...

Daenerys Targaryen
14-05-2016, 15:22
yes, yes, they called me mad! But seriously my fixation with the mk.VI robot pants has been fueled by the most recent raptor and chosen chaos models, all mostly corrupted mk.IV, and the newest SM marine kit which features at least three armor marks. All I'm asking for is what GW is capable of producing. It's what we are paying for. AND everyone knows horns were not used on helmets until the 35th millennium *rabble rabble rabble*...
To be fair, the Raptor kit comes w/3x mk.VI style legs, and 2x rounded knees.