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It's also a hammer
08-05-2016, 18:43
So been reading heresy book 2 Again and particular the salamanders section and it mentions that Vulcan along with Alpahrius and Russ were separated from the others whilst still in the test tubes. Now I know why alpharius was... He wasn't alone he had omegron and Vulcan was probably separated because of the perpetual thing... So what's so special about Russ. I mean Magnus was an uber psyker corax could turn invisible and sanguinious had wings. So why Russ?

Xisor
08-05-2016, 22:44
So why the fuss, Russ?

Fixed that for you.

I got the impression it wasn't segregation of Primarchs, but segregation of legions for special ops. Reinforcing that Alpha Legion were always Black Ops (or were they?), Space Wolves were always executioners (or were they?) and Salamanders were always assymmetric specialists who'll fight for humanity down long eternity (or were they?).

I think the big question that's still unanswered, really, and that's glaring everyone in the face isn't 'why Russ?' or 'why Space Wolves?', but why the Fang?

Seriously. Why the second greatest fortress in the Imperium? Why Fenris?

What exactly is the nature of the world spirit there? Is it like the dead spirit of Prospero? The will of Caliban? Did Nocturne have one? (Seven?) What happened to whatever the Alpha Legion were supposed to be beholden to? Was there such a thing? Were all those bits just coincidence that worked out well?

Fangschrecken
10-05-2016, 17:22
Didn't the chaos gods try to send all the Primarch's to worlds where they could be corrupted?

Razios
13-05-2016, 21:41
Fixed that for you.

I got the impression it wasn't segregation of Primarchs, but segregation of legions for special ops. Reinforcing that Alpha Legion were always Black Ops (or were they?), Space Wolves were always executioners (or were they?) and Salamanders were always assymmetric specialists who'll fight for humanity down long eternity (or were they?).

I think the big question that's still unanswered, really, and that's glaring everyone in the face isn't 'why Russ?' or 'why Space Wolves?', but why the Fang?

Seriously. Why the second greatest fortress in the Imperium? Why Fenris?

What exactly is the nature of the world spirit there? Is it like the dead spirit of Prospero? The will of Caliban? Did Nocturne have one? (Seven?) What happened to whatever the Alpha Legion were supposed to be beholden to? Was there such a thing? Were all those bits just coincidence that worked out well?

The wolf role is something they impose themselve, the proclaim they are the emperor executioners but is more a boast that anything else,

Inquisitor Engel
13-05-2016, 22:07
The wolf role is something they impose themselve, the proclaim they are the emperor executioners but is more a boast that anything else,

The Horus Heresy books make it fairly clear that's not the case. The Wolves had a specific role within the Legiones Astartes. Malcador makes this pretty clear at the start of "Vengeful Spirit."

Razios
14-05-2016, 04:01
The Horus Heresy books make it fairly clear that's not the case. The Wolves had a specific role within the Legiones Astartes. Malcador makes this pretty clear at the start of "Vengeful Spirit."

Which is weird because ABD said otherwise all the damn time, also I dont think the emperor desin that way, Leman and Malcador play that way but outside him, after all the space wolf are not that big to take other legions

Lord Malorne
14-05-2016, 04:13
Which is weird because ABD said otherwise all the damn time, also I dont think the emperor desin that way, Leman and Malcador play that way but outside him, after all the space wolf are not that big to take other legions

Its heavily hinted at that they participated in the destruction/disappearance of one of the missing legions though, most recently is the Chris Wraight novel, Scars iirc.

Fangschrecken
14-05-2016, 19:56
We do know the wolves were sent to bring Angron to justice for some reason (or Russ was acting on his own, I don't really remember). So it could be a reference to that instead.

Personally I like to think one of the missing primarchs was an inventor and innovator so Kelbor-Hal, head of the Mechanicum, took him out in some "accident." It would help explain why he isn't too afraid of going against the imperium and the close by loyalist primarchs. He's already knocked one off.

Xisor
15-05-2016, 15:37
The Horus Heresy books make it fairly clear that's not the case. The Wolves had a specific role within the Legiones Astartes. Malcador makes this pretty clear at the start of "Vengeful Spirit."

You're annoyingly right. Many authors (ADB and some others) seem content to indicate that there's a bit of interesting human psychology and politics/cultural identity going on - and that that's more interesting than "no, they're definitely executioners z Emperor said so".

In other places with other authors, whom I'd be inclined to suggest are those that aren't troubled by the problems of subtlety, find it quite okay to just outright state that that was the Emperor's intention.

Difference between an emergent zeitgeist and a Just So story, if I were to be terribly uncharitable.

Nevertheless - the idea that one of their first sets of 'secret training' was in anti-Astartes operations, or even anto-Primarch - that's fascinating.

Being trained how to use a gun doesn't make you an assassin, however.

Talos402000
15-05-2016, 17:58
So been reading heresy book 2 Again and particular the salamanders section and it mentions that Vulcan along with Alpahrius and Russ were separated from the others whilst still in the test tubes. Now I know why alpharius was... He wasn't alone he had omegron and Vulcan was probably separated because of the perpetual thing... So what's so special about Russ. I mean Magnus was an uber psyker corax could turn invisible and sanguinious had wings. So why Russ?

Because Russ is the one the Emperor sends when he wants to kill a primarch. The Space Wolves were cloistered away from the other Legions for two reasons, one being the Canis Helix (it was thought at the time that the Canis Helix would give them the edge over other Legions), and the other reason was the Emperor didn't want them getting too close to the other Legions.

"Space marines are inherently tough, but the Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless, they are savage, they are brutal. Which begs the question why the Emperor would permit something so wild and dangerous to exist? And that answer would be to take down another Legion."-Dan Abnett.

Note that it is the Wolves who are sent out in small groups to shadow the primarchs and kill them if they show disloyalty. Even Rogal Dorn, the Emperor's Praetorian, has a contingent watching his every move. It seems to me, at this point in time, that Leman is the only primarch the Emperor trusts anymore.

Inquisitor Engel
16-05-2016, 05:51
You're annoyingly right.

You know, my wife says the same thing.


Nevertheless - the idea that one of their first sets of 'secret training' was in anti-Astartes operations, or even anto-Primarch - that's fascinating.

For sure. I quite liked the idea that the Legions had specific uses and roles in mind. The Salamanders, Alpha Legion, and the Wolves are the most notable, but the VIII Legion/Night Lords seemed to have been specific in purpose (violent subjugation versus normal conquest/compliance) even before they found their Primarch.


Being trained how to use a gun doesn't make you an assassin, however.

Quite. All of the "special" legions were also perfectly good at normal warfare and compliance. Their specific roles were fallbacks, if nothing else. Their special roles being "activated" when required rather than being like a special/designated ops unit in today's military, who basically train until a mission requiring their expertise is required.

Lord Malorne
16-05-2016, 15:58
For sure. I quite liked the idea that the Legions had specific uses and roles in mind. The Salamanders....

In what way them? :) Be interested to hear what each role a chapter had, in your opinion, not quite upto date on legion lore.

Inquisitor Engel
16-05-2016, 21:02
In what way them? :) Be interested to hear what each role a chapter had, in your opinion, not quite upto date on legion lore.

AFAIK we don't actually know fore sure what the special role the Salamanders had versus the Alpha Legion and the Wolves. According to HH Book 2 (I think), the Wolves, Salamanders, and Alpha Legion were raised, trained, and indoctrinated in sequestration (from both each other, and the other legions) and had specific tasks.

The Salamanders SEEM to have been basically meat grinder/suicide marines, with rapid replacement and a deep need and desire to throw themselves against incredible odds. In one Unification Wars battle, they sustain something like 95% casualties but still consider their win a true victory, because they won. Phyrric victories are not a thing to the Salamanders.

It appears Vulkan steered the Legion AWAY from that sort of fatalistic warfare choice, unlike the Wolves and the Alpha Legion, who seem to have kept their original special purpose (Wolves) and doubled down on it (Alpha Legion).

Oddly, it seems like Perturabo moved the Iron Warriors TOWARD this type of warfare, though not quite as hardcore as the Pre-Primarch Salamanders.

Lord Malorne
16-05-2016, 21:54
AFAIK we don't actually know fore sure what the special role the Salamanders had versus the Alpha Legion and the Wolves. According to HH Book 2 (I think), the Wolves, Salamanders, and Alpha Legion were raised, trained, and indoctrinated in sequestration (from both each other, and the other legions) and had specific tasks.

The Salamanders SEEM to have been basically meat grinder/suicide marines, with rapid replacement and a deep need and desire to throw themselves against incredible odds. In one Unification Wars battle, they sustain something like 95% casualties but still consider their win a true victory, because they won. Phyrric victories are not a thing to the Salamanders.

It appears Vulkan steered the Legion AWAY from that sort of fatalistic warfare choice, unlike the Wolves and the Alpha Legion, who seem to have kept their original special purpose (Wolves) and doubled down on it (Alpha Legion).

Oddly, it seems like Perturabo moved the Iron Warriors TOWARD this type of warfare, though not quite as hardcore as the Pre-Primarch Salamanders.

Huh, certainly not the way Kyme has been portraying them, just about finished the Salamanders Omnibus (on the very last short story now) and they are rather bland, though he keeps trying to state they are the most emphatic and tenacious of all the chapters (which is poor writing, stating they are something as opposed to engineering that impression through their 'actions' in the work).

Karhedron
17-05-2016, 13:59
Didn't the chaos gods try to send all the Primarch's to worlds where they could be corrupted?

The story of the scattering of the Primarchs has has been told multiple times in multiple ways. Some Primarchs were clearly strongly affected by the worlds they were raised upon and in some cases, this led to their fall to Chaos. However one could hardly argue that Macragge or Inwit were particularly likely to corrupt Guilliman or Dorn.

The original version of the story states that the daemons who abducted the gestating primarchs were themselves destroyed and the Primarchs scattered randomly. However this seems unlikely as they all ended up on human-inhabited worlds. The HH novels have shown the scattering twice (False Gods and First Heretic) and in both cases, the Emperor was present yet did not appear to intervene. However in both cases, they views into the past were granted by daemons so are best treated us unreliable.

We know that the Emperor had placed various protective wards around the incubation chambers in addition to the Gellar fields (which were apparently sabotaged by Argel Tal). It is possible that these wards protected the Primarchs and may have had some role in ensuring they ended up in places where the Primarchs could survive. I don't think that has been definitively addressed anywhere though.

Lord Malorne
17-05-2016, 14:39
Used to be, back in my day, chaos scattering them was just one option amongst a few presented as to why they were flung across the galaxy, seems with the HH series it just the 'demons done it' version.

Casper Hawser
20-05-2016, 10:13
AFAIK we don't actually know fore sure what the special role the Salamanders had versus the Alpha Legion and the Wolves. According to HH Book 2 (I think), the Wolves, Salamanders, and Alpha Legion were raised, trained, and indoctrinated in sequestration (from both each other, and the other legions) and had specific tasks.

The Salamanders SEEM to have been basically meat grinder/suicide marines, with rapid replacement and a deep need and desire to throw themselves against incredible odds. In one Unification Wars battle, they sustain something like 95% casualties but still consider their win a true victory, because they won. Phyrric victories are not a thing to the Salamanders.

It appears Vulkan steered the Legion AWAY from that sort of fatalistic warfare choice, unlike the Wolves and the Alpha Legion, who seem to have kept their original special purpose (Wolves) and doubled down on it (Alpha Legion).

Oddly, it seems like Perturabo moved the Iron Warriors TOWARD this type of warfare, though not quite as hardcore as the Pre-Primarch Salamanders.

Oddly the description you give for the Salamanders is smiler to the ones for Death Guard and World Eaters in Betrayal.

Snake Tortoise
20-05-2016, 11:33
I'm glad this thread came up. I've been curious myself what the special purpose of the Salamanders was

It would be cool if a later HH book definitively explains the primarch scattering

Razios
20-05-2016, 21:50
even the planets choice dosent seen random: after all is a little bit TOO lucky that Magnus, the one with most psyker potencial lend in planet far from everyone with a psyker comunity to care for him? random change....or fate?

one can said the same from all primach dosent it?

Lord Malorne
21-05-2016, 01:48
One can indeed said that, some are supposed to have been guided while some are arguably more random, Angron backstory always bothered me, as in why the big E did not just have his ship fire on the encircling army, same for a few other primarchs, mostly the ones that got slighted (to their view) and may hold a grudge against him, mortarion for example, lazy writing or a deeper issue, unless the heresy itself was part of the big plan, ah speculation, so fun.

Fangschrecken
21-05-2016, 15:35
I think the Emperor didn't want Angron's gladiator army turned into space marines. He may have thought they would be violent and uncontrollable. Would be ironic.

Xisor
21-05-2016, 23:03
On the topic of the purpose of the Salamanders, I think the passage in the book specifically mentions "assymmetric warfare". To that end, I can imagine a Horus Heresy army of Salamanders 'regressing' to their pre-Vulkan (and, incidentally, we've only seen Kyme's Salamanders as post-Vulkan - his stories don't deal much, at all with their regression, which is unerstandable as part of the shtick is that Vulkan isn't utterly deluded, just fighting an uphill struggle... appropriately...) ways and ending up releasing all sorts of virus bombs and megaweapons. As a force for HH, I can very clearly see a single squad of Veterans allied to an entire regiment of Deathstrike Misslies.

Unlike the Death Guard, I got the impression it was less 'personal endurance' and 'pride in their abilities', and much more about throwing absolutely everything (and the kitchen sink) at the supposedly overwhelmingly powerful enemy. And, by being willing to do this, deliberately picking ludicrous targets because the concept of the force-multiplication is... addictive.

(At war with reality, if you were being uncharitable/cynical. You could even flip the above shtick - maybe Vulkan'a restraint meant that he saved his Legion at the cost of actual, decisive victory. Pursuing peace prolongs the war, after a fashion. I don't find it as compelling, for the Salamanders, but gives them a darker, almost perverse/sadistic/selfish edge... Their humanism could be making things massively worse...)

In fairness to Kyme, he's inadvertently channelled that absurd gung-ho, strangely freedom-fighting viciousness in his character Tsu'gan. It's not always handled well (especially third book), but when it's good it was tremendous. For my money, at least.

With the revelations about Vulkan's ultimate fate in 'Vulkan Lives', you can see why I have a quiet admiration for a lot of the traits. There's a compelling synergy to Vulkan's... humanism (even if told more than shown) compared to his fate. Then contrast that with Vulkan and the Salamander's respective physical limitations... There's a compelling psychological... maybe not tragedy, but clever-yet-sad play in there.

I digress.

---

Taking a mechanical approach to the scattering of the Primarchs, is how I find it always best to view it. The creation of the Primarchs is a massively complicated psychic ritual on the part of the Emperor and his team. I usually view the scattering as a 'Peril of the Warp'. The ritual worked, more or less, and did what it was supposed to... but with a sting in the tail and a a slight, warping twist in the outcome. Don't forget that they were scattered not only in space, but I time. So perhaps Angron arrived where he was supposed to, but not quite *when*. Perhaps Lorgar and Magnus should have been the other way around in the Emperor's design. Did it matter where the Khan ended up? Perhaps Horus was expected on Nostramo, and if Konrad had arrived on Cthonia, a suitably early intervention might have been possible (and Horus might have been less susceptible to the oppressiveness).

And, of course, the destruction of the laboratory? The 'switching off/destruction of the Gelled Field' - just psychic phenomena from rolling multiple nines under the early Dark Heresy rules?

To that extent, daemons did do it. And the Chaos gods did snatch them. But the Emperor also intended to send them anyway. Perhaps it was a pushed power and, for it to succeed at all, there was always a significant risk (or in Rogue Trader rules for a pushed power: guarunteed phenomena, at least) of Perils of the Warp.

So the question isn't really what happened or why, but what was the intention and how far was what happened separated from what was intended? Might the Emperor have known that there'd be a 'spooky action at a distance' - that whoever ended up on Fenris would inadvertently retroactively link their geneseed to that planet, that the Primarch would become sort of wolf-obsessed? Conversely, how much influence did Nocturne actually have on Vulkan - was the smithing and skill a consequence or a design?

To that end, I envision an overlap of cause and effect. Some were indelibly affected by the planets - but how many candidate planets were there? 20? Or were only twenty selected from many massively eligible 'psychoactive' planets. (Macragge and Inwit and such are troubles in this reasoning - they have no greatly remarkable traits that weren't much more compelling elsewhere - perhaps examples of where it went wrong? Members of the control group? Something subtle like 'knowing'/foreshadowing-by-weird-prophecy that 10k years later a Tyranids Hive fleet, a monumental psychic event, would occur?)

Anyway, I find that viewing the whole thing with that 'mechanics of psycho engineering' hat on takes the edge of worry off the scattering of the Primarchs. Daemons were involved, but that's because it was psychic engineering. 'A stolen deal, breaking a pact with the Dark Gods' could be nothing more than poetic license for 're-rolled a peril of the warp roll to get a slightly less catastrophic result, even though the power worked'.

So its true and false, and more.

Kronos
30-05-2016, 01:18
I always saw the legions as having counterparts.

Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, Siege warfare.
Night Lords, White Scars - Hit and Run/Fast troop Assaults.
Alpha Legion, Raven Guard - Subterfuge/covery operations.
Ultramarines, Word Bearers - Conquest, Rebuilding, Indoctrination, empire building, Campaigns?
World Eaters, Blood Angels - Infantry Shock Attacks/hand to hand combat
Iron Hands, Emperors Children - Precision Strikes/craftsmanship/creation/perfection of war.
Sons of Horus, Dark Angels - Elite infantry (terminators) assaults, overall tactical assaults....?
Salamanders, Death Guard - Exterminators and survivors/death world specialists/xenos destroyers/artificers
Space Wolves - Legion Executioners
Thousand Sons - Psykers.

So, either the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons were the only legions with an individual role to play in the great crusade. Or the missing/killed primarchs were their counterparts. If they wern't then the missing Primarchs had a role that could easily be filled. But being a warpstorm causing psychic rod and out of control superhuman executioner seem like two very probable reasons for the big E to send the Wolves of Russ to your doorstep. I think the primarchs and their legions would deal well in all scenarios but each had a specific purpose shared with a mirroring legion, either as a back up, rivalry or to help the advancement of the crusade.

Fangschrecken
30-05-2016, 14:54
I always saw the legions as having counterparts.

Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, Siege warfare.
Night Lords, White Scars - Hit and Run/Fast troop Assaults.
Alpha Legion, Raven Guard - Subterfuge/covery operations.
Ultramarines, Word Bearers - Conquest, Rebuilding, Indoctrination, empire building, Campaigns?
World Eaters, Blood Angels - Infantry Shock Attacks/hand to hand combat
Iron Hands, Emperors Children - Precision Strikes/craftsmanship/creation/perfection of war.
Sons of Horus, Dark Angels - Elite infantry (terminators) assaults, overall tactical assaults....?
Salamanders, Death Guard - Exterminators and survivors/death world specialists/xenos destroyers/artificers
Space Wolves - Legion Executioners
Thousand Sons - Psykers.

So, either the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons were the only legions with an individual role to play in the great crusade. Or the missing/killed primarchs were their counterparts. If they wern't then the missing Primarchs had a role that could easily be filled. But being a warpstorm causing psychic rod and out of control superhuman executioner seem like two very probable reasons for the big E to send the Wolves of Russ to your doorstep. I think the primarchs and their legions would deal well in all scenarios but each had a specific purpose shared with a mirroring legion, either as a back up, rivalry or to help the advancement of the crusade.

I think you're largely correct with the pairings but I don't think each loyal legion was exactly mirrored by a traitor one. (1k sons and wolves being unique) Each legion had it's own unique practices and ideology that gives it a strong counter part in another legion but can also be similar to different legions. As an example the most ferocious assaults are always said to have been conducted by the Blood Angels and World Eaters, but the Iron Warriors have been said to match them for ferocity (maybe not as a legion but they had bezerker type squads too). A further example: the Raven Guard and Night Lords are masters of speed and stealth but the White Scars match them for speed and the Alpha Legion matches their stealth.

Kronos
30-05-2016, 15:51
I think you're largely correct with the pairings but I don't think each loyal legion was exactly mirrored by a traitor one. (1k sons and wolves being unique) Each legion had it's own unique practices and ideology that gives it a strong counter part in another legion but can also be similar to different legions. As an example the most ferocious assaults are always said to have been conducted by the Blood Angels and World Eaters, but the Iron Warriors have been said to match them for ferocity (maybe not as a legion but they had bezerker type squads too). A further example: the Raven Guard and Night Lords are masters of speed and stealth but the White Scars match them for speed and the Alpha Legion matches their stealth.

Yeah I do think there are definite cross over traits. The Ultramarines and the Sons of Horus come to mind in being adept at all things and the Primarchs tactical ingenuity. Night Lords and Raven Guard I find tricky, they have strong similarities I feel in aesthetic (dark, brooding, night loving legions, especially lightning claws and jump packs) But I feel the their use in tactics is vastly different, the Primarchs may be similar but the legions present themselves altogether differently in tactics and function...but i may be wrong in this.

I think it's difficult to pin point exactly what the legions do an pair them, Iron Warriors and Iron Hands have a a strong link with the mechanicum, cybernetics and all things technaogical, but bar aesthetics they practices, uses and tactics are very different.

Razios
09-06-2016, 03:36
Because Russ is the one the Emperor sends when he wants to kill a primarch. The Space Wolves were cloistered away from the other Legions for two reasons, one being the Canis Helix (it was thought at the time that the Canis Helix would give them the edge over other Legions), and the other reason was the Emperor didn't want them getting too close to the other Legions.

"Space marines are inherently tough, but the Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless, they are savage, they are brutal. Which begs the question why the Emperor would permit something so wild and dangerous to exist? And that answer would be to take down another Legion."-Dan Abnett.

Note that it is the Wolves who are sent out in small groups to shadow the primarchs and kill them if they show disloyalty. Even Rogal Dorn, the Emperor's Praetorian, has a contingent watching his every move. It seems to me, at this point in time, that Leman is the only primarch the Emperor trusts anymore.

Which is fairly nonsense consider the wolf dosent have the number, they have a bad time with TS and even when Magnus given them the edge of battle, they dont have the power of said, Ultramar or World bears who are have the best number, even they have trouble with the Alfa legion

And I dont think the emperor send the wolf, I think Malcador did it, I think Russ is spying on all legion in case something bad happen but is hard to said how much is order to the emperor

Even ADB put hint: where Lorgar dreams that space wolf and Night lords being use to haunt their legion and destroyed

Anyway there is a point is not touch much: is just coincidence the planet where primach landed? or maybe it was fate? consider chaos gods already move head of time(consider how much time exist for them) is not weird to said they throw way things around

Jack of Blades
09-06-2016, 14:40
Anyway there is a point is not touch much: is just coincidence the planet where primach landed? or maybe it was fate? consider chaos gods already move head of time(consider how much time exist for them) is not weird to said they throw way things around

I recall reading somewhere, but at this point I don't remember where, that the Chaos gods didn't just want to remove them from the Emperor but also attempted to cast the primarchs onto planets where they would be easier/easily corrupted.