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MasterCrafted
17-05-2016, 21:12
Decided to finally have a crack at lord of the rings (predominantly 40k player), and got myself the hardback rulebook with the army lists in. I've only skimmed the book, but can't see any rules on army selection, have i missed them?
Do i need any other books?

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mdauben
18-05-2016, 00:43
Decided to finally have a crack at lord of the rings (predominantly 40k player), and got myself the hardback rulebook with the army lists in. I've only skimmed the book, but can't see any rules on army selection, have i missed them?
Do i need any other books?

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Army selection is pretty wide open. Technically there are only two armies; Good and Evil. You can mix all the Good lists together and the same with all the Evil lists.

The only real limitations are you must have a Hero from the same list as every 12 Warriors (so 12 Isenguard Uruk-hai need one Isenguard hero). There is also a limit of 1/3 of your force can have bows, although there are some exceptions which are stated in individual lists.

That's about it!

Jind_Singh
18-05-2016, 06:55
Mastercrafted!

Welcome to the franchise!

If you have the newest big rule book, The Hobbit, please refer to page 100:

Choosing an army

It mentions that an army comprises of warbands, with no limit to the number of warbands an army can include other than the points limit.

To choose a warband you must 1st pick a captain - this can be any named/unnamed hero from an ARMY LIST (so these army lists are on page 194 and 195 in The Hobbit rule book and cover all the profiles released in that book)

You can take up to 12 warriors to accompany that leader.

So for e.g. Azog the Hunter can take 12 followers - he can choose from Hunter Orcs, Fell Wargs, Hunter Orcs on Fell Wargs in any combination

It mentions that a class of hero, independent heroes (for example Gollum) can't take followers, nor can they be the army general

And keep picking warbands from that army faction until you run out of points!

BUT on page 101 it also talks about allies - and the only restriction is Good can only ally with Good, and Evil with Evil. You just pick a new army list, pick a hero and start repeating the process until you run out of points!

Finally there is no restriction on how may warbands from different army books you can choose.

Where do the rules and profiles for the other armies exist?

The Hobbit - contains all the profiles for movie 1 (all the profiles are also a free download from GW website)
The Desolation of Smaug is the 2nd movie
The battle of Five Armies (free PDF download from GW website)

Adam Troke, new SBG manager, also indicated a new SBG source book is being released combining the above into one handy book, with new profiles too, but it's not a rule book, just scenarios and new profiles

Lord of the Rings

The armies were grouped into books called Source books. Each source book contained a bunch of armies

E.g. Kingdoms of Men provided rules for Gondor, Rohan, the Fiefdoms of Gondor, Arnor

Morder was an exception as it ONLY has Mordor! (it's a big book!)

These books, apart from 1, all gone from the GW website but don't worry...

THEY ARE BACK! Very, very soon they will be available to buy once more direct from GW


Example Army

I take Gimli (Free Peoples source book, Durin's Folk) and he takes 6 Dwarf Warriors, 3 Khazad Guard, and 3 Iron Warriors (1 Hero, 12 warriors)

I take Boromir (Kingdoms of Men, Gondor), with 6 Gondor Knights, 6 Gondor Warriors

I take Legolas (Desolation of Smaug, Mirkwood) with 12 Mirkwood Rangers

I finally take Gandalf the White

I elect Boromir to be my army general

MasterCrafted
18-05-2016, 18:32
Thanks for the replies!

I've bought the old big blue lord of the rings rulebook, that seems to have all the army lists i need. Do i really need the sourcebooks? The big rulebook doesn't have anything about warbands, and seems to suggest you can take what you wany. Were restrictions added in other books?

Planning to do evil forces, mainly mordor

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BTJ
19-05-2016, 10:24
Unfortunately that's no longer the current rulebook, it was replaced when The Hobbit was released, and the core rules were changed a bit when that happened. And yeah, pick up the source book for the army you're going to play, there were a few profile and points adjustments made when those books were released

Replicant253
19-05-2016, 11:02
The big blue rulebook and then one of the faction sourcebooks and you are good to go...well with models, dice etc et

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Spiney Norman
19-05-2016, 11:10
Thanks for the replies!

I've bought the old big blue lord of the rings rulebook, that seems to have all the army lists i need. Do i really need the sourcebooks? The big rulebook doesn't have anything about warbands, and seems to suggest you can take what you wany. Were restrictions added in other books?

Planning to do evil forces, mainly mordor

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It depends on your context really, and what opponents you have available, locally I wouldn't have an issue playing blue-book era LotR because I thought it was fine, the source books would be useful to you in any case, they're a convenient way to access all the profiles for your chosen faction in one place plus they have the standard scenarios and Warband rules which were added to the game after the big blue book was printed. The Hobbit rule book also contains a raft of fairly small tweaks that imho improve the game considerably, new heroic actions, the introduction of a to-hit penalty for moving and shooting and the special strikes for weapon types have all refined the gameplay in my view by helping to reduce the dominance of armies that operate with high defence, high fight or high quantity of shooting.

At the end of the day we happily played with the rules in the blue book for years and loved it, just be aware that it's not the 'current edition' and if you rely on finding pick-up games against strangers they'll probably be expecting to use the most recent rules set.

MasterCrafted
19-05-2016, 21:15
Appreciate the replies. I think me and my gaming bro will stick with the big blue book, and pick up the other books as we get more comfortable with the system. My mates got a lot of LOTR stuff he's never used; I've just got myself 24 plastic orcs, so I'll add a couple more things and jump in!

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mdauben
20-05-2016, 07:38
Actually at this point I would advise against buying the yelloe Hobbit rulebook. They have just recently announced a new updated Hobbit rulebook that incorporates the two Desolation of Smaug and Battle of Five Armies supplements, along with some other updates.

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Spiney Norman
20-05-2016, 07:39
Actually at this point I would advise against buying the yelloe Hobbit rulebook. They have just recently announced a new updated Hobbit rulebook that incorporates the two Desolation of Smaug and Battle of Five Armies supplements, along with some other updates.

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If you mean the 'There and Back Again' supplement previewed at warhammer fest, they did state that this new supplement is not a rule book (i.e. it does not contain the game rules), it contains only profiles and new scenarios, so if you want the rules you're still going to need to get your hands on either the small format hobbit rule book from goblin town or the large format hardback book.

mdauben
20-05-2016, 07:50
Are you sure? The photos of it I saw showed a big, hardcover book that looked at least as thick as the current Hobbit rulebook

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160520/be932dd7fdd2b147c9e6054d070d7608.jpg



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Jind_Singh
22-05-2016, 08:50
Are you sure? The photos of it I saw showed a big, hardcover book that looked at least as thick as the current Hobbit rulebook

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160520/be932dd7fdd2b147c9e6054d070d7608.jpg

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It's been confirmed that the book is a HUGE source book for the Hobbit range for the last 2 movies,bunch of new scenarios, etc.

It won't be a rule book, nor does it include rules

Ben
22-05-2016, 12:39
Will there be a new printing of the hobbit rulebook in a similar format? ie your standard forgeworld leather bound tome.

mdauben
22-05-2016, 13:36
It's been confirmed that the book is a HUGE source book for the Hobbit range for the last 2 movies,bunch of new scenarios, etc.

It won't be a rule book, nor does it include rules
I don't know. Is the player base ready to spend $80+ on a non-rulebook supplement? They might have been better off with a less ambitious paperback release.

Spiney Norman
22-05-2016, 13:48
I don't know. Is the player base ready to spend $80+ on a non-rulebook supplement? They might have been better off with a less ambitious paperback release.

Unless they are going to actually change the Core game rules (which I don't think was the point in the new middle earth studio), you're basically just talking about replacing the current core hobbit rule book with a version which costs substantially more. Personally I would pay for a high spec book if the content was new, but not if more than half of it was just a reprint of a book I already owned.

mdauben
22-05-2016, 14:59
Unless they are going to actually change the Core game rules (which I don't think was the point in the new middle earth studio), you're basically just talking about replacing the current core hobbit rule book with a version which costs substantially more. Personally I would pay for a high spec book if the content was new, but not if more than half of it was just a reprint of a book I already owned.
That's the thing. From what's being said it's not a rulebook, updated or otherwise. So it sounds like a new player (who wants to game the Hobbit movie heroes and warriors) will need to buy the existing $85 rulebook *plus* this new $80-90 supplement.

Most people seemed to agree that at least one of the reasons the The Hobbit never approached the popularity of the original LOTR game was the significantly higher entry cost. This just seems to be going down the same path. I'm worried that only fanatics will buy this thing and we won't get any growth in the player base. 😯

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C-Coen
22-05-2016, 15:05
A big new rulebook is thought to appear at some point, but not anywhere soon. The 'There and Back Again' book will basically replace the Desolation and BotFA supplements, to have updated profiles and scenarios that actually match the movies rather than matching what the studio was told would be in the movies...
The books at Warhammerfest was just a mock-up though, and not representative of the actual product, which is a few months away. It will be big and hardback, but not quite as large as the one shown.. 150ish pages I believe.

Eddie Chaos
30-05-2016, 20:56
Surely any big new rulebook (core rules) would be under some kind of middle earth brand to unify the hobbit and lotr ranges?

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duffybear1988
01-06-2016, 13:21
Don't mess this up GW. I only have a toe in the door and I'm worried you're about to slam it shut. Go back to reasonable pricing for Pete's sake or this is destined to fail all over again.

Seriously though, if they mismanage this just like the did the later LOTR and Hobbit releases then I have no time for GW at all anymore.

draccan
01-06-2016, 13:24
I would love to go into LOTR but with the current pricing I can't justify it. So many other great games out here for a fraction of the cost.

Spiney Norman
01-06-2016, 17:36
Don't mess this up GW. I only have a toe in the door and I'm worried you're about to slam it shut. Go back to reasonable pricing for Pete's sake or this is destined to fail all over again.

Seriously though, if they mismanage this just like the did the later LOTR and Hobbit releases then I have no time for GW at all anymore.

You realise that all the new miniatures going forward are going to be made by Forgeworld right?
I'm really not sure what you're expecting...

duffybear1988
01-06-2016, 18:54
You realise that all the new miniatures going forward are going to be made by Forgeworld right?
I'm really not sure what you're expecting...

I'm expecting it to crash and burn like it did previously, but you lot tell me I'm never positive so didn't want to say that right away :)

LOTR was my favourite game by GW and I'm (rather foolishly) still hopeful that FW won't go crazy with the prices.

It's just a phase I'm going through... it won't last. Expect angry duffy back a week after release ;)

Spiney Norman
02-06-2016, 22:30
I'm expecting it to crash and burn like it did previously, but you lot tell me I'm never positive so didn't want to say that right away :)

LOTR was my favourite game by GW and I'm (rather foolishly) still hopeful that FW won't go crazy with the prices.

It's just a phase I'm going through... it won't last. Expect angry duffy back a week after release ;)

Frankly I think Lotr has the best set of rules of any GW game, and I think that's largely always been the case since it came out (other than one slight wobble with the war of the ring).

The thing with FW prices nowerdays is that they're really not that much more expensive than the plastic kits produced by GW main, but I do expect them to be pricey due to the small scale, labour-intensive process and higher quality resin that FW uses to make their minis.

Replicant253
03-06-2016, 11:27
Thrilled with FW looking after lotr but your kidding yourself if you think it is going to be anything other than beautiful resin models, eye watering prices and aimed the serious collectors. This is not a return to the main stream.

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duffybear1988
03-06-2016, 11:36
Thrilled with FW looking after lotr but your kidding yourself if you think it is going to be anything other than beautiful resin models, eye watering prices and aimed the serious collectors. This is not a return to the main stream.

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Then it's destined to fail all over again. People voted with their wallets last time and that's why the Hobbit didn't sell well. Stamping FW on it all is going to just give them the same result.

Replicant253
03-06-2016, 12:14
Or maybe they are happy to see it perform modestly and alongside all the other returning specialist brands see value in providing a range of gaming options to players. I think it fair to call the Hobbit release a failure first time around but defining failure under FW stewardship is going to be difficult. Not everything can or is intended to make as much cash as 40k. Lotr/Hobbit has always had a dedicated serious collecting fan base and GW/FW obviously still see it viable to tap into this market.

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duffybear1988
03-06-2016, 12:33
Or maybe they are happy to see it perform modestly and alongside all the other returning specialist brands see value in providing a range of gaming options to players. I think it fair to call the Hobbit release a failure first time around but defining failure under FW stewardship is going to be difficult. Not everything can or is intended to make as much cash as 40k. Lotr/Hobbit has always had a dedicated serious collecting fan base and GW/FW obviously still see it viable to tap into this market.

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But people won't pay those prices for LoTR models. They don't pay them at the moment (otherwise the Hobbit wouldn't have failed so badly) so why would they start paying just because they smacked a FW logo on the box?

Spiney Norman
03-06-2016, 12:57
But people won't pay those prices for LoTR models. They don't pay them at the moment (otherwise the Hobbit wouldn't have failed so badly) so why would they start paying just because they smacked a FW logo on the box?

I think you underestimate what people will pay for models for Lotr, look at the second hand eBay market for discontinued models, some of the rarer examples sell for ten times their RRP. There is a small but deeply committed scene for the game in the UK which will pretty much pay whatever is asked for the new models. The reason the game failed was because the scene that exists wasn't large enough to support it as a mainline system, that isn't likely to change, which is why FW are handling it from here on in.

duffybear1988
03-06-2016, 13:12
I remember it selling fine until they halved the box contents but charged the same prices.

Ebay is a good source of old hard to get minis but not everybody will pay premium. They'd get more sales if they lowered prices to a more reasonable level.

blackcherry
03-06-2016, 15:30
I know that as soon as they halved the models per box and increased the price I stopped playing. The detail on the models are fine, but I balk at paying the price I could at the moment for 12 monopose LotR models. When it comes to e-bay I know I won't pay more than old RRP for many models. You get a few bids that are high for character models, but those are a niche of a niche.

It's all about perception in the end - forgeworld are seen as 'quality' by the GW customer base, but LotR has always had a more diverse market than that. They probably would object to paying those prices.

I do agree that shifting LotR to Forgeworld is basically GW keeping hold of the licence, whilst lowering the threshold for management of what counts as a 'successful' game.

mdauben
03-06-2016, 18:38
I remember it selling fine until they halved the box contents but charged the same prices.

Ebay is a good source of old hard to get minis but not everybody will pay premium. They'd get more sales if they lowered prices to a more reasonable level.
In the beginning the SBG had three things going for it; the hype generated by three very successful movies, a low entry price, and exposure beyond the typical game store. Certainly they have lost the first and last advantage but I dispute that the low entry price is gone. The game is still arguably cheaper than either 40k or WFB (or a typical AoS army in my experience) to get started and it's actually comparable to some competing games like Warmachine. All the original LOTR factions have (relatively) inexpensive plastics to build the core of your army with. Yes, they are not as cheap as they used to be but nothing is. You can still build a competitive 500 point army for less than $100.

If you are determined to field one of the Hobbit armies it will be more expensive but still not too unreasonable.

I know some people never got over the price increase 4-5 years ago and won't be convinced but if there's local support for the game I think it has a chance fir at least a modest resurgence.

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Inquisitor Gideon
03-06-2016, 23:11
But people won't pay those prices for LoTR models. They don't pay them at the moment (otherwise the Hobbit wouldn't have failed so badly) so why would they start paying just because they smacked a FW logo on the box?

Don't put words in peoples mouths. The people who play the game (myself included) are the majority who stuck through the years of neglect that GW put the game through. Forgeworld will be expensive, but it's not a large game. Typically 3 or 4 warbands and you've got yourself the army. And it's still cheaper than the resin blisters we have now and plenty of people have made armies from just those.

duffybear1988
06-06-2016, 13:16
Don't put words in peoples mouths. The people who play the game (myself included) are the majority who stuck through the years of neglect that GW put the game through. Forgeworld will be expensive, but it's not a large game. Typically 3 or 4 warbands and you've got yourself the army. And it's still cheaper than the resin blisters we have now and plenty of people have made armies from just those.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that GW were trying to make a go of LOTR again after it failed horrifically last time. My entire gaming group used to play and then the price rise came in and almost overnight people decided not to continue with LOTR as they couldn't afford to play all 3 main GW games.

Yes, you can build an army for cheaper than Fantasy or 40k but don't kid yourself that LOTR as it currently is is a good deal. I can get 40+ multi-pose Greek hoplites, HYW knights, Napoleonic infantry and heaps more for the same price as those LOTR/Hobbit plastic kits, and most of those GW sets are only single pose.

You say you are the majority of gamers who stuck with the game through years of neglect and I get that, but you're not exactly vast amounts of people and you're spending hasn't kept the game doing anything more than bumping along the cobbles. GW need to inject life back into the game and the easiest way of doing that is to offer some good deals. How many people started 30k because of the Calth box set? The reason it sold so well is because the plastics were much better value than the resin FW kits.

From where I'm standing it's almost like you want the game to fail. If the game's expensive it drives down interest and player numbers dwindle to nothing. Surely it's better to get some new blood playing the game? Or do you enjoy playing against yourself most of the time?

Inquisitor Gideon
06-06-2016, 23:40
I'm kind of curious how you pulled all of that from just one post. And me wanting to have the game fail? :eyebrows: You can't compare cheap historicals to the LoTR stuff, when there are a 1001 historical suppliers and maybe 2 or 3 suppliers of LoTR style miniatures. And only one that is based off the movies and books. LoTR at the moment is still a hell of a lot better deal than 40k or fantasy/AoS. Even when it goes to Forge World, it's still going to be cheaper than it is now.

Again, your putting words other peoples mouths. I never said i was the majority of people and neither is your gaming group. The fact that so much of the product line dropped off the face of the earth hurt peoples spending. The simple fact that the product was not available. If the re-release of the kingdoms of men book two weeks ago (it went out of stock instantly online) is any indication, the player base is there and it is hungry for stuff.

The line is Forge World now and that's where it is going to stay. People will play and will pay because they love the line and want to see it succeed. Just look at the Great British Hobbit League. They've shot up the popularity of the game immensely. As has the fact that the GW Hobbit team actively post on there frequently. But in regards to your last point, the new blood is already there and with the re-releases and new releases coming, it will continue to grow. There's a reason i'm at a tournament at least once every other week.

mdauben
07-06-2016, 00:35
Yes, you can build an army for cheaper than Fantasy or 40k but don't kid yourself that LOTR as it currently is is a good deal. I can get 40+ multi-pose Greek hoplites, HYW knights, Napoleonic infantry and heaps more for the same price as those LOTR/Hobbit plastic kits, and most of those GW sets are only single pose.
IMO that's a totally invalid comparison. Historical figures have always been cheaper than fantasy or scifi but they are not really a substitute. If someone wants to play LOTR or even just a fantasy game they are not going to be satisfied with a historical game just because it's cheaper.

Comparing apples to apples, LOTR is comparable to most other main stream fantasy games.



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duffybear1988
07-06-2016, 11:46
IMO that's a totally invalid comparison. Historical figures have always been cheaper than fantasy or scifi but they are not really a substitute. If someone wants to play LOTR or even just a fantasy game they are not going to be satisfied with a historical game just because it's cheaper.

Comparing apples to apples, LOTR is comparable to most other main stream fantasy games.



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I disagree. You're paying for plastic soldiers and there are plenty of conversions or repaints of historicals that are used in a fantasy setting. There are some amazing Game of Thrones themed armies I have seen recently with a whole mixture of different companies figures used to represent the army of the dead.

Even if historicals are cheaper in many cases, GW is a large company that has it's own in house production so in reality their goods should be cheaper than the historicals.

mdauben
07-06-2016, 13:39
I disagree. You're paying for plastic soldiers and there are plenty of conversions or repaints of historicals that are used in a fantasy setting. There are some amazing Game of Thrones themed armies I have seen recently with a whole mixture of different companies figures used to represent the army of the dead.

Even if historicals are cheaper in many cases, GW is a large company that has it's own in house production so in reality their goods should be cheaper than the historicals.
And none of those historical figures look like the ones from the movie, which is important to me. Plus none of those historical ranges need to pay licencing fees for their figures. I agree their are cheaper alternatives but I still maintain that (for many of us) they are not acceptable substitute.

If you don't feel the same then go ahead and build a Rohan army out of Gripping Beast Carolinian Franks, or a Haradarim army out of their Moors. Most of the human forces in the books are based at least in part on historical armies and such historical miniatures would probably be more true to the books than Jackson's plate armor Minas Tirith Warriors. I'd still be happy to play against you. [emoji6]

And it's not like I'm a GW fan boy or totally price insensitive. I've pretty much given up on 40K and WFB/AoS based in large part on the price.

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blackcherry
06-07-2016, 11:57
Rather than start a new thread, I thought I would piggyback on this one.

I sold my Return of the King rulebook a few years ago. My question is; have the Hobbit rules introduced any massive rules changes? Looking at the Free Peoples source book, there seems to have been some consolation of special rules into rulebooks, rather than listing them in the army books themselves, but I'm not sure if that is an indication of rule changes, or just good admin.

Is it worth getting hold of the Hobbit rules (which at £50 is a big ask)? Or better for now to just nab one of the original game rule books second hand and play from there?

duffybear1988
06-07-2016, 12:24
The weapon rules have changed a fair bit. Now you get specific bonuses for axes, swords, hammers etc. If you can nab one of the old Hobbit softback rulebooks from ebay they are well worth it.

mdauben
06-07-2016, 12:39
There was also a change in the rules for monsters that most people agree was am improvement.

As the previous poster said if you can find the mini rulebook from the Escape from Goblin town box set that would have all the new rules.

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blackcherry
06-07-2016, 13:32
Cheers for the quick reply.

Building a small dwarven force so far (have 24 warriors, 10 Khaz‚d Guard, Gimli and a Captain) so will try and grab the softcover rulebook so I will have everything needed to play games - I'll even have an opponent in the form of a Mordor force my partner has!