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jozhik
21-05-2016, 05:53
"And darkness was over the abyss, and the Holy Jozhik flew above the waters and pontificated to himself ceaselessly and without mercy..."

[Also, too, running a 20-jump hisec delivery mission in EVE can be incredibly boring. You've either been there or you haven't.]

Recall that according to (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-how-the-points-system-works.html), the AoS points system will be:

-- Released in the summer.
-- Be included in a shiny new book.
-- Said shiny new book will also have "22 new battle plans" and "6 new Pitched Battle scenarios". And, I am guessing, not a small amount of fluff, artwork, etc.

In other words, we are talking about a fully-fledged print release from GW as opposed to a solitary worker gnome laboring in some dungeon near Nottingham - by candlelight, no less - to produce a ten-page Word document to be posted on some website. Although from what I recall from being one of the many people to have worked on a couple of the Warhammer Ancients books many, many years ago, for a solitary writer even nailing those ten pages can be quite the taxing exercise.

And so I began to think.

Let us suppose that this shiny, wonderful, invaluable tome - priced, I'd wager, at not less than 25 Pounds - shall be released to the greedy all-of-us precisely on August 1. Plus or minus a few weeks does not actually matter for the purposes of this thought experiment.

If the tome is released on August 1, then it must have been approved for publication, say, not less than three months prior to the release date. Mind, I am no expert on print publishing, but that lead time sounds reasonable from what little I do know. Perhaps a few weeks more, or a few weeks less - but on the other hand, one might even make the leap of faith that GW began to taunt us about AoS points values at some point shortly after the book was signed into print. So let's say April-May 2016 time frame.

Presumably, before being sent to print such a volume needs to a) be illustrated; b) be shoved into a publishing template by an overly enthusiastic production associate; and c) be actually read by someone claiming to have editorial responsibilities. Furthermore, before any of this can happen, the book needs to actually be written. I would be surprised if all these steps took GW less than three to six months, so even in the most aggressive case the command to write this book must have been given sometime late last year. More likely, we probably ought to go back to last autumn if not last summer, especially if - heaven help us - some amount of playtesting by GW was involved. [Multiple rewrites of critical sections I can believe in; playtesting feels like a bit of a stretch, however...]

So let us suppose that last summer, or at the latest last autumn, this book was in the works. We now have the first decision tree in the experiment.

-- Possibility 1 - the points costs were intended to be in the book from the very beginning, i.e. summer-autumn 2015 or earlier.
-- Possibility 2 - the points costs were inserted into the book midway through the writing or production process in response to "changing market conditions" and in the name of "leveraging synergies" or some such nonsense.

If Possibility 1 is true, then the following ought to be true:

-- GW never really intended to "blow up" the competitive aspect of its WFB/AoS franchise.
-- GW did, however, massively mishandle the initial AoS release by leading many players to believe such "blowing up" was taking place.
-- Thus, to the extent that there is any negative revenue impact from the AoS-WFB substitution - and as I've said in other posts, we have no irrefutable mathematical evidence to this effect based on the numbers for the company released to date - the blame must be placed at the feet of GW's marketing department. At least in theory, as I do not know whether GW actually has a marketing department to begin with. Certainly Tim Kirby was never a fan of such "balderdash" and "flimflammery". [In my mind, I tend to picture good old Tim as a version of marshal Haig as lampooned in the Blackadder series.]
-- Meanwhile, however, if and only if Possibility 1 is true, then it would also entail a lesson to be learned by various Internet goers and communities about being led to premature conclusions. Applicable to all sorts of "real life" subjects, actually.

On the other hand, if Possibility 2 is true, then:

-- GW, in all probability, did originally intend to "blow up" the competitive side of WFB, for reasons supremely justifiable to upper management.
-- Inserting the points into the new AoS supplement surely indicates a less than favorable market response to AoS.
-- Naturally, Possibility 2 also suggests that instantly assuming the worst is a reasonable and rational way to handle any new GW product release or initiative.

Separately, insofar as the AoS points cost system that shall no doubt cause a great tide of vehemence and hate to wash over these very forums for many months, it seems to me there are - broadly speaking - three ways to think about how GW had put it together:

-- Alternative 1 - fast and simple. For example, "count the wounds". Or a very simple Excel formula (I don't know - wounds + attacks * hit % * wound % + move / 6 + 1 point per special rule - something silly like that) applied to a couple of hundred rows of unit stats. Or some other alternative that is, to quote myself (ever a brilliant idea, at least where I am involved), fast and simple.

Advantages - GW can quickly encompass the entirety of the "old" WFB range while also just as rapidly adding the new AoS units to the system.

[In fact, it can be argued - by me - that this would be not entirely unlike the Privateer Press approach...but then, the latter also involves strict unit construction limitations, lots of cross-unit similarity, and very small scale, which is not exactly how traditional WFB had worked.]

Disadvantages - and giveth did GW the new AoS points system undo the munchkins, and the munchkins rejoiced and were gladdened. And all the indy GT organizers did gnash their teeth, and mighty wails about comp rose above the land. The end.

-- Alternative 2 - the "moderate" approach, if you will. Some not-simple way to cost a specific AoS model is developed - let's say a stats-based formula adjusted or weighted by special rules, equipment variations, unit type, etc. Manual adjustments are also possible to fix any units that seem too much under or over the level at which "they are supposed to be".

Advantages - while (some or many) players all over the world may still grouse about specific combos or comp wrinkles, generally speaking the overall balance is within reason. Or within tolerance, however one wishes to put it.

Disadvantages - obviously this takes longer to do, particularly given how some equipment combinations or special rules can alter the performance of different units to a different extent. In other words, if you recall the old WFB points system, goblin equipment cost 1/2 the points of elf equipment because of the difference in underlying model parameters (so you ended up with more goblins than elves for the same points, hence some semblance of balance). Also, unbalanced combos will still exist, and players will still grouse.

-- Alternative 3 - a stupidly detailed and elaborate design involving more playtesting that GW had done in total for the past three editions of 40k. Veritable legions of Nottingham residents toiling away in GW's dungeons endlessly pushing movement trays, rolling dice and recording results, with all of the latter compiled into a gigantic database and reconciled against a ludicrously complicated statistical formula developed based on years and years of...oh, who am I kidding.

Advantages - an...ideal...something...may or may not be ultimately produced. Personally, I am envisioning the final product that reads something like: "Player 1 has one (1) Space Marine. Player 2 has one (1) Space Marine. They are identical in every respect. The game will consist of Player 1 and Player 2 offering competing alternatives as to what identically armed and equipped Space Marines are actually doing in the Age of Sigmar universe."

Disadvantages - from personal experience, playtesting is a very time and labor intensive process. And you never feel like you have done enough. At some point you just have to pull the plug and release the thing. A bit like software development, actually, if you think about it.

Let us continue by setting aside Alternative 3 altogether as rather unrealistic given that this is GW. Mind, I am not contending that GW does no playtesting whatsoever - it certainly does, or had in the past, at least, both directly and through "favored" gaming groups. However, I both suspect and expect that even the most intensive development effort will end up as the "moderate" approach (Alternative 2), particularly given the time and budget constraints involved.

So. Back to the decision tree, but working backwards.

If Proposal 2 is true - that AoS points were a mid-process insertion in response to "changing market conditions" or some such - then it seems highly probable to me that Alternative 1 (fast and simple) should apply. In other words, in this case we shall receive some kind of a points system, but it shall be up to individual players and tournament organizers to "ban certain cards" or make sure that no-one drops a Virus strategy card on a pre-codex Ork army (a little 2nd edition reference there - the Virus card could basically wipe most of an Ork army out immediately after deployment, and I've actually seen that happen once; the 2nd Edition Ork Codex specifically added a counter-measure for this, if memory serves).

If, on the other hand - and we can only pray - Proposal 1 is true (Hail Jervis!) - then either Alternative 1 (fast and simple) or Alternative 2 (more complex with some amount of playtesting) could be true. I, of course, hope for the latter, but in truth I have no way of knowing, at least not until I see the actual book and the points costs therein.

Thus, in the best of all possible words, GW had intended to put in a points system "all along" (or, at least, since mid-last year), and the system we will ultimately get will resemble that of the old WFB with both its advantages and its disadvantages. And, to be sure, this would not be a bad outcome. After all, competitive WFB had been around for a very long time before the End Times ate the universe, and flawed as it was, it still attracted various types of players to a greater or lesser degree. Moreover, at the very least we'll have some sort of a guideline for anonymous games at the local shop (as opposed to hoping not to run into a complete munchkin this time). GW would still be on the hook for bungled marketing, but that's nothing new, really.

Unfortunately, the other option seems...unpleasant. Irrespective of when the decision to put in points costs was made, if the approach adopted was as "simplified" as, say, AoS statlines were simplified relative to WFB stats...heavens preserve us. Sure, a points system of some kind is better than nothing, and sure, simple points systems can work, provided the rest of the design is sufficiently robust. However, they are talking about converting the entirety of the WFB range and - presumably - the new AoS ranges to this new points system. Simplicity means you save time and budget, but also that you end up with...who knows what buried in the details.

Anyhow. That's pretty much the end of my thoughts - also, my EVE mission is finally done (5kk and faction standings for a stupid bloody delivery - not all that bad for a night's work). As a final observation, I will wager right now that no matter what the book - and the points costs - will ultimately look like, these very forums and others like them will feature a) massive, frequent, profuse and vociferous ranting and raving about how the new system is "completely broken", "utterly inadequate" and "totally unplayable", and b) similarly massive, frequent, et cetera posts taking the opposite, "pro-AoS" viewpoint. In other words, pretty much what has been happening already, but with a few more barrels of petrol thrown upon the fire for everyone's amusement and benefit.

Me - I'm waiting to bring back my MSU Dark Elves...

Ben
21-05-2016, 08:31
Well that took a while to say that the points system has probably been wedged into an existing product and is unlikely to be robust.

Which is true. Balance is likely to be all over the place, and it would have been better to do an updated online rules set with updates based on feedback.

I have no idea how GW will balance the reward mechanism built into AoS for buying more boxes of models.

Dosiere
21-05-2016, 12:16
They had years - years - to produce AoS. That they intended this book to be in existence but to wait a year after the release of the game just because makes no sense. It is far more likely they intended to not go down this road with AoS - certainly the basic rules (with or without points) show a design intentionally avoiding anything resembling matched play, or even narrative mechanics.

The fact is that for those of us who have played AoS points have been available since the beginning, most likely superior to those in this book. My club picked up Azyr comp the moment it came out, and even ran a tournament using it just a few weeks later. Playing AoS with points is not something new or revolutionary. While it does make the game palatable to a wider audience, you'll also notice that nearly every single fan made comp system includes significant changes to the core rules as well, which apparently this book does not really address.

If nothing else, this seems like the rulebook that should have come out when the game launched, which is a shame. If it's even halfway decent at what it's trying to do it'll be a massive improvement over the basic game. It's still AoS though, with the same basic rules and design philosophy strapped to it like a dead weight.

MOMUS
22-05-2016, 07:53
GW figured out a new way to make money off the game based on the way the community has interpreted it.

They were always going to bring out the book, it would be stupid not to.

They've tailored the book to how the community has reacted, it would be stupid not to.

GW likes money, GW isn't stupid.

Tokamak
22-05-2016, 10:34
-- GW never really intended to "blow up" the competitive aspect of its WFB/AoS franchise.

They clearly did intentionally blow it up. The lack of points was just one of the many aspects that made AoS non-competitive. It's the loose measuring, the gamey positioning, the weird mini-game rules, all of it made it nearly impossible to build a competitive match on it.


and the system we will ultimately get will resemble that of the old WFB with both its advantages and its disadvantages.

AoS with points is a far cry from what WFB was.

I would be with you every step of the way if GW made a simplified WFB. Something like KoW or even simpler. Warhammer with reduced statlines, less dice rolls, consolidated special rules. All of that would've been fine. But they didn't. They made something that's akin to how toddlers bash their action figures against each other in a mock-fight and then threw some arbitrary dice around it.

Here's what happened:

40k outperformed WFB. GW had to explain it to their shareholders so a team of sales geniuses said 'we'll do 180 degree pivot and shake things up!' and changed nearly EVERYTHING there was to change about WFB in an anxious bid that it would breach a whole new market. And to get the veterans on board they bluffed their way through it. They burned all boats and made sure there was nothing left of the old hobby. The veterans could either participate or leave, hoping these people were so invested and loyal to the hobby that they would take on a whole new game just for the privilege of getting to touch Citadel miniatures.

And lo and behold. GW's bluff got called.


They had years - years - to produce AoS. That they intended this book to be in existence but to wait a year after the release of the game just because makes no sense.

Exactly. 8th edition was, and still is, a well rounded game system. It wasn't aging and there were no glaring flaws. It wasn't even due for a mild update yet it's cycle was cut short by AoS. I don't believe for a second that End Times was a parting gift either. The way it developed created ample opportunity to keep producing new rules, units and even whole new armies. To end it all right there made zero sense.

None of these decisions are based on gameplay. It's all business gambling.

Tyranno1
22-05-2016, 11:08
GW isn't stupid.

Debatable...

Hoffa
22-05-2016, 12:04
I think the OP is missing

Alternative 4) Points are slapped on based upon the designers gut feeling, no formula or play testing is used. (GW has been known to work like this before. There is a long line of badly costed units to prove this)

Teurastaja
22-05-2016, 12:11
GW figured out a new way to make money off the game based on the way the community has interpreted it.

They were always going to bring out the book, it would be stupid not to.

They've tailored the book to how the community has reacted, it would be stupid not to.

Few months ago points were evil incarnate. What has changed since then?

Community mostly reacted by laughing/playing other games/ignoring AoS/selling their armies. I'm not really sure that was GW's plan.

Tokamak
22-05-2016, 12:14
Few months ago points were evil incarnate. What has changed since then?

Whatever GW does is best the hobby, but most of all, for us.

Teurastaja
22-05-2016, 12:18
Whatever GW does is best the hobby, but most of all, for us.

It feels like 1984...

StygianBeach
22-05-2016, 12:21
Exactly. 8th edition was, and still is, a well rounded game system. It wasn't aging and there were no glaring flaws. It wasn't even due for a mild update yet it's cycle was cut short by AoS. I don't believe for a second that End Times was a parting gift either. The way it developed created ample opportunity to keep producing new rules, units and even whole new armies. To end it all right there made zero sense.

None of these decisions are based on gameplay. It's all business gambling.

I would agree that 8th was not entirely due for an update because of how the rule books were changing the meta without bombing the meta (Chariot Warriors, and White Lion hordes were a bit frustrating though).

Releasing the 8th ed Bretonnian book and then dropping End Times would have been nice too.

I think it is quite likely that GW allowed for changes to be made to AoS along the way depending on the response to AoS. They probably had a bunch of potential alteration prepared to be inserted at this time period. One such alteration being points cost, they probably have a mass battles rule set left in the file section marked under X as well.

I would like to see a Mass Battles system for AoS, it would not be hard either, just use Elements. For example a Sigmarine Liberator Element will be on a 100mm x 50mm base and have 2 Sigmarines on it, each unit consists of 2 - 4 Elements. Champions/Characters will just stand next to their unit. Casualty removal will be represented by the removal of Elements.

Zywus
22-05-2016, 12:25
Whatever GW does is best the hobby, but most of all, for us.


It feels like 1984...
GW always planned to release points for AoS.
And we have always been at war with Eurasia.

StygianBeach
22-05-2016, 12:32
GW always planned to release points for AoS.
And we have always been at war with Eurasia.

Comrade, Eurasia is our ally, it has always been our ally.

Teurastaja
22-05-2016, 12:45
I would like to see a Mass Battles system for AoS, it would not be hard either, just use Elements. For example a Sigmarine Liberator Element will be on a 100mm x 50mm base and have 2 Sigmarines on it, each unit consists of 2 - 4 Elements. Champions/Characters will just stand next to their unit. Casualty removal will be represented by the removal of Elements.

So, bigger and probably worse version of Warmaster? :)

StygianBeach
22-05-2016, 12:57
So, bigger and probably worse version of Warmaster? :)

Exactly what I was thinking. With a different command/control system though, AoS Mass Battles would instantly be better than Warmaster. Always hated that pass a Leadership test or sit and scratch mechanic.

Teurastaja
22-05-2016, 13:11
Exactly what I was thinking. With a different command/control system though, AoS Mass Battles would instantly be better than Warmaster. Always hated that pass a Leadership test or sit and scratch mechanic.

Call me a masochist, but I really like that part of Warmaster.
Anyway, GW could try turning AoS into something like War of the Ring if points won't help (and I'm pretty sure they won't). That would fit their general pattern of idiotic behaviour.

Tokamak
22-05-2016, 13:19
Massive AoS battles? Like moving hundreds of individual units and then measuring each one individually to see if they can make an attack?

Ben
22-05-2016, 13:35
Basically it needs a 2nd edition written with the purpose in mind that people will play the game, and want to enjoy it.

And massive imbalance, flat out unbalanced games (because the people playing it aren't games designers and the rules literally state deploy models until you run out of money), incredibly fiddly rules (measuring from the model, 3 moves a turn) combine to make it awful.

1st ed warhammer was launched in virgin territory, AoS was launched in a developed market. If it weren't for the support GW were throwing at it, AoS would have completely disappeared.

Finnigan2004
22-05-2016, 15:20
It feels like 1984...

Nah, in 1984 GW was a growing and forward looking company... ;).

MOMUS
22-05-2016, 20:47
Few months ago points were evil incarnate. What has changed since then? .

You must've missed the part where I said money and GW not being stupid.

GW has created a game based on business, they can manage it as loosey goosey as they like, change things whenever they want if it sells more and people will lap it up.
The community started playing with points, so they are selling us points.
if the community started playing with more objectives you can guarantee that there will be an objective based expansion boxed set 95 a couple of months later. the old business model got threw out when the designers/writers lost the reigns to the marketing team.

Tokamak
22-05-2016, 20:49
Nah, in 1984 GW was a growing and forward looking company... ;).

GW's founders would be spinning in their graves if they weren't still alive.

Zywus
22-05-2016, 20:53
GW has created a game based on business, they can manage it as loosey goosey as they like, change things whenever they want if it sells more and people will lap it up.
The community started playing with points, so they are selling us points.
if the community started playing with more objectives you can guarantee that there will be an objective based expansion boxed set 95 a couple of months later. the old business model got threw out when the designers/writers lost the reigns to the marketing team.
The community wanted a balanced WHFB rules system, to the point that tournaments created lengthy addons and comp systems. GW attempted to sell us AoS.

Attempting to make a product based on what the community wanted is precisely what GW didn't do and is what got them in the mess they currently are in.

Teurastaja
22-05-2016, 21:10
You must've missed the part where I said money and GW not being stupid.

GW has created a game based on business, they can manage it as loosey goosey as they like, change things whenever they want if it sells more and people will lap it up.
The community started playing with points, so they are selling us points.
if the community started playing with more objectives you can guarantee that there will be an objective based expansion boxed set 95 a couple of months later. the old business model got threw out when the designers/writers lost the reigns to the marketing team.

It's more like they are trying to fix Kirby's final mistake. There's no master plan behind AoS, just incompetence.

MOMUS
22-05-2016, 21:32
The community wanted a balanced WHFB rules system, to the point that tournaments created lengthy addons and comp systems. GW attempted to sell us AoS.

Attempting to make a product based on what the community wanted is precisely what GW didn't do and is what got them in the mess they currently are in.

A balanced WHFB would have been a FAQ for each book, that would've made even less money than 8th, there wasn't much further to go in the old world.
AoS was always coming, if you don't like it tough poo.
GW will make it as palatable as possible but AoS is the replacement and a permenant fixture.


There's no master plan behind AoS...

I totally agree, but there doesn't need to be. It follows the whim of the team, splash releases create more buzz and spending.

Zywus
22-05-2016, 21:59
A balanced WHFB would have been a FAQ for each book, that would've made even less money than 8th, there wasn't much further to go in the old world.FAQ's wouldn't have been enough. A new edition with proper playtesting and designed from the ground up a la 9th age would have been needed, and would have provided rulebooks and armybooks to sell. Not to mention boost model sales thanks to exitment in the community.

There was lots of things that could be done within the confines of the old world. GW didn't even scratch the surface of it's potential during the last 10-15 years. Only stupidity, incompetence, complacency and lack of fantasy/inspiration would make a company believe that there wasn't anything left to do with the old setting.


GW will make it as palatable as possible but AoS is the replacement and a permenant fixture.
It's permanent until it's scrapped due to lack of sales.
If they couldn't make a beloved franchise with 30 years of history and peoples investment provide them with enough sales, how the hell will they make AoS work?

They didn't make WHFB as palatable as possible. Instead, they just gave up.

StygianBeach
22-05-2016, 22:30
The community wanted a balanced WHFB rules system, to the point that tournaments created lengthy addons and comp systems. GW attempted to sell us AoS.

Attempting to make a product based on what the community wanted is precisely what GW didn't do and is what got them in the mess they currently are in.

I think GW were listening to the community, but not to what the community was saying but to how they were spending.

I think there is wisdom in that.

Zywus
22-05-2016, 22:43
I think GW were listening to the community, but not to what the community was saying but to how they were spending.

I think there is wisdom in that.
Maybe. Although if the community is dropping off and you don't attempt to discover why and provide a product that is more in line with what people desire, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy of failure.

Yowzo
23-05-2016, 08:34
It's more like they are trying to fix Kirby's final mistake. There's no master plan behind AoS, just incompetence.

Honestly based on the way they tried (and still try) to push AoS GW probably thought they had a master plan in place.

Evil laughs and all, followed by a lot of headscratching on why it didn't work and how their customers "don't get it".

Claymore
23-05-2016, 10:09
I don't think much will come of it, it's been a panic reaction and as such will probably be badly implemented.

Adding points to a system that wasn't designed with it to start with is like trying to patch up a sinking boat with toilet paper.

Tokamak
23-05-2016, 10:31
There's no master plan behind AoS, just incompetence.

Everything about it smells like sales voodoo. Doing things different for the sake of doing it different without any real direction. Just seeing what sticks.

Malagor
23-05-2016, 12:00
I think GW were listening to the community, but not to what the community was saying but to how they were spending.

I think there is wisdom in that.
Actually there is no wisdom in that.
Several examples already in GWs history on why that was a bad idea.
The most infamous is Tau, a mainly forgotten faction, low sales but when they finally get a update, they sold like hot cakes so much so that they sold out. I remember that some new tau players had to wait over 3 weeks just to get a codex because GW didn't have enough of them, they could only send like 5 codexes a week. Took over a month just to see a fire warrior box on the shelves.
Wood Elves is another nice example.
Low sales doesn't mean that a faction/model/game isn't interesting to the customers which if you look at it from a sales department POV is what they will take from that, sometimes low sales means people are waiting for something new or something to get updated before spending money on it.
Sisters of Battle is a great example of this. From a sales department POV a dead faction but if you listen to the community, they are waiting for them to be updated, new players are waiting for them to be updated and if the rumours are to be true, they are ready to be updated, plastic models and everything for a Dark Eldaresque remake but GW is afraid to release it because the sales department says they aren't selling hence a dead faction.

WarsmithGarathor94
23-05-2016, 12:34
The thing with the old world is it was rather limited from the point of view of you couldn't really do alot about it without it having a knock on effect to the rest of the world . for example lets say Naggaroth had fallen all of a sudden youd have chaos pouring out of the wastes unchecked. So in that sense the setting was limited

Arrahed
23-05-2016, 12:38
Actually there is no wisdom in that.
Several examples already in GWs history on why that was a bad idea.
The most infamous is Tau, a mainly forgotten faction, low sales but when they finally get a update, they sold like hot cakes so much so that they sold out. I remember that some new tau players had to wait over 3 weeks just to get a codex because GW didn't have enough of them, they could only send like 5 codexes a week. Took over a month just to see a fire warrior box on the shelves.
Wood Elves is another nice example.
Low sales doesn't mean that a faction/model/game isn't interesting to the customers which if you look at it from a sales department POV is what they will take from that, sometimes low sales means people are waiting for something new or something to get updated before spending money on it.
Sisters of Battle is a great example of this. From a sales department POV a dead faction but if you listen to the community, they are waiting for them to be updated, new players are waiting for them to be updated and if the rumours are to be true, they are ready to be updated, plastic models and everything for a Dark Eldaresque remake but GW is afraid to release it because the sales department says they aren't selling hence a dead faction.
It would be very interesting to see how the RagingHeroes Sisters of Battle will sell. If their kickstarter is any indication they will probably sell like hot cake. There were different model ranges in the kickstarter so it doesn't correlate 1:1 with Sisters of Battle sales but they still raised a very large amount of money. And that is for resin models from a third party. I suspect 'cheap' plastic troop boxes from GW would sell like crazy.

Horace35
23-05-2016, 12:39
I am sure it would have taken a whole paragraph to write some fluff to do pretty much anything

WarsmithGarathor94
23-05-2016, 12:50
I am sure it would have taken a whole paragraph to write some fluff to do pretty much anything

But the fact is itd effect every other faction in the game big time. Itd be like in 40k games workshop allowing chaos to break out the eye and slaughter cadia. Itd kind of be a big thing

Horace35
23-05-2016, 12:54
Sort of like blowing up the world?

Zywus
23-05-2016, 12:58
The thing with the old world is it was rather limited from the point of view of you couldn't really do alot about it without it having a knock on effect to the rest of the world . for example lets say Naggaroth had fallen all of a sudden youd have chaos pouring out of the wastes unchecked. So in that sense the setting was limited
Thing is that you can do a lot of stuff in the fluff without it always having to be about super-duper world changing events. The fact that you can't just willy-nilly destroy a entire continent spanning empire without it throwing the entire world into turmoil I guess is a limitation of the Warhammer world in some way, but if that's what stopping you from working with a setting that says a lot more about your lack of imagination and competence then it does about the limitations of the setting.

ewar
23-05-2016, 13:45
I think GW were listening to the community, but not to what the community was saying but to how they were spending.

I think there is wisdom in that.

I make chocolate bars. I try to sell you a chocolate bar for 100 each. You do not buy said chocolate bar. You buy the bar next to it for 70 pence. I close my factory and end production of chocolate bars. This is not wisdom.


The thing with the old world is it was rather limited from the point of view of you couldn't really do alot about it without it having a knock on effect to the rest of the world . for example lets say Naggaroth had fallen all of a sudden youd have chaos pouring out of the wastes unchecked. So in that sense the setting was limited

You could do a HUGE amount with a entire world for a setting, filled with varied races and beings, a rich and multilayered lore going back decades (in real time). Hell, they could have just changed the ending of Archaon's book by taking out Mannfred and not ending the world. You then have an existing setting completely up-ended with a vast potential for new stories.

Just think about what we missed out on: the elves falling out again in Athel Loren, having to expand outwards to new lands. Bretonnia effectively wiped out, with the potential for a new leader/theology to turn them into a unique (to GW) faction. The Lizardmen returning in their pyramids to wherever the hell they wanted. Undead all over the place, Chaos rampant, Dwarfs emigrating to set up a new domain and the Empire with Sigmar returned, even perhaps with his new golden robots to order about.

There is more potential creativity in that paragraph than 500 pages of the Mortal Realms. I mean, surely even the most ardent AoS fans would rather have seen some of that get written than pages and pages about fighting over old doorways to who-knows-where.

StygianBeach
23-05-2016, 14:00
I make chocolate bars. I try to sell you a chocolate bar for 100 each. You do not buy said chocolate bar. You buy the bar next to it for 70 pence. I close my factory and end production of chocolate bars. This is not wisdom.


Bad analogy in this context.


Actually there is no wisdom in that.
Several examples already in GWs history on why that was a bad idea.
The most infamous is Tau, a mainly forgotten faction, low sales but when they finally get a update, they sold like hot cakes so much so that they sold out. I remember that some new tau players had to wait over 3 weeks just to get a codex because GW didn't have enough of them, they could only send like 5 codexes a week. Took over a month just to see a fire warrior box on the shelves.
Wood Elves is another nice example.
Low sales doesn't mean that a faction/model/game isn't interesting to the customers which if you look at it from a sales department POV is what they will take from that, sometimes low sales means people are waiting for something new or something to get updated before spending money on it.
Sisters of Battle is a great example of this. From a sales department POV a dead faction but if you listen to the community, they are waiting for them to be updated, new players are waiting for them to be updated and if the rumours are to be true, they are ready to be updated, plastic models and everything for a Dark Eldaresque remake but GW is afraid to release it because the sales department says they aren't selling hence a dead faction.

Horus Heresy was selling well, GW listened to that. Is there no Wisdom in that?

Should GW do everything the community asks, would that be wise?

I think GW should listen to the community, but I also think people like to talk purchases more than they actually like to make purchases (me included).

Zywus
23-05-2016, 14:19
Horus Heresy was selling well, GW listened to that. Is there no Wisdom in that?

Should GW do everything the community asks, would that be wise?

I think GW should listen to the community, but I also think people like to talk purchases more than they actually like to make purchases (me included).
Horus Heresy was selling well because ForgeWorld produced great (if expensive) models and quality background rooted in the old foundations of the 40K setting. Interestingly enough, much like the old world you are limited in the Horus Heresy setting in that you can't just blow up Terra on a whim or kill of a few astartes legions. Despite that, Forgeworld and Black Library has managed to explore the setting and present interesting stories. (indeed, it is often said that creativity is helped by having some boundaries to keep within)

Dark Eldar languished for about a decade with an ancient codex, and terribly outdated models. Presumaby they sold very badly. Would it have been wise of GW to draw the conclusion that there wasn't any interest in the community for the Dark Eldar faction? Would it have been wise to only listen to the purchases of those ancient 3rd edition starterset plastics and wonky metal grotesques and assume there weren't any point in giving attention to the Dark Eldar?

Instead they relaunched the faction with awesome models and support befitting a actual faction and lo and behold, lots of sales ensued!

Arrahed
23-05-2016, 14:38
Horus Heresy was selling well, GW listened to that. Is there no Wisdom in that?

If something sells well, it is reasonable to assume a new and similar product will also sell well at a lower price.
If something sells badly, there is no reason to assume that a new and similar product with a potentially adjusted price will not sell well. Except there is additional data from market research available...

WarsmithGarathor94
23-05-2016, 14:48
I make chocolate bars. I try to sell you a chocolate bar for 100 each. You do not buy said chocolate bar. You buy the bar next to it for 70 pence. I close my factory and end production of chocolate bars. This is not wisdom.



You could do a HUGE amount with a entire world for a setting, filled with varied races and beings, a rich and multilayered lore going back decades (in real time). Hell, they could have just changed the ending of Archaon's book by taking out Mannfred and not ending the world. You then have an existing setting completely up-ended with a vast potential for new stories.

Just think about what we missed out on: the elves falling out again in Athel Loren, having to expand outwards to new lands. Bretonnia effectively wiped out, with the potential for a new leader/theology to turn them into a unique (to GW) faction. The Lizardmen returning in their pyramids to wherever the hell they wanted. Undead all over the place, Chaos rampant, Dwarfs emigrating to set up a new domain and the Empire with Sigmar returned, even perhaps with his new golden robots to order about.

There is more potential creativity in that paragraph than 500 pages of the Mortal Realms. I mean, surely even the most ardent AoS fans would rather have seen some of that get written than pages and pages about fighting over old doorways to who-knows-where.
Oh boo boo get the hell over it id sooner play 7th ex 40k for all its flaws than 8th ed fantasy you want to know why because for 1 40k do sent require u to have a damn degree in strategy to damn win a game

Zywus
23-05-2016, 14:54
Oh boo boo get the hell over it id sooner play 7th ex 40k for all its flaws than 8th ed fantasy you want to know why because for 1 40k do sent require u to have a damn degree in strategy to damn win a game
True. You can win a lot of games in 7th edition 40k by just bringing a lot of wraithknights and scatterlaser jetbikes.

But what does your inability to play games that require strategy has to do with ewars observation on the potential contained in the old world?

WarsmithGarathor94
23-05-2016, 14:57
True. You can win a lot of games in 7th edition 40k by just bringing a lot of wraithknights and scatterlaser jetbikes.

But what does your inability to play games that require strategy has to do with ewars observation on the potential contained in the old world?

You mean by going completely against cannon that chaos will while out the old world and that archaon will be the one to do it? Also i don't play eldar im actually a space marine chaos marine chaos daemon player

Zywus
23-05-2016, 15:04
You mean by going completely against cannon that chaos will while out the old world and that archaon will be the one to do it? Also i don't play eldar im actually a space marine chaos marine chaos daemon player
I don't get what you're talking about:confused:

What does your experiences playing 40K has to do with this?

Even if the ultimate fate of the warhammer world was always to be overrun by chaos doesn't mean that bombastic end of the world scenarios are what must be re-enacted all the time.
WHFB 1st edition to at least 6th or 7th (and probably most of 8th) did just fine without the setting being placed in the final stages of chaos destruction of the world.

StygianBeach
23-05-2016, 16:48
Dark Eldar languished for about a decade with an ancient codex, and terribly outdated models. Presumaby they sold very badly. Would it have been wise of GW to draw the conclusion that there wasn't any interest in the community for the Dark Eldar faction? Would it have been wise to only listen to the purchases of those ancient 3rd edition starterset plastics and wonky metal grotesques and assume there weren't any point in giving attention to the Dark Eldar?

Instead they relaunched the faction with awesome models and support befitting a actual faction and lo and behold, lots of sales ensued!

Those Old Dark Eldar needed an update, the new stuff is indeed great stuff. Maybe they concluded that the Dark Eldar needed an update because of bad sales? Maybe.... could be? :D

I do not think GW should base their future projects 100% on current sales, but I there is some Wisdom in taking current sales into account when considering future projects.

Much better than a willy nilly approach anyway. Does anyone know if that is what happened with Dreadfleet?


If something sells well, it is reasonable to assume a new and similar product will also sell well at a lower price.
If something sells badly, there is no reason to assume that a new and similar product with a potentially adjusted price will not sell well. Except there is additional data from market research available...

So, are in agreement then?

Zywus
23-05-2016, 17:33
Well u made the damn point that 40k is easier to play if u play eldar i just corrected you
40k isn't easier if you play eldar? You sure doesn't sound like a Chaos marine player to me :p

If you by your own admission feel like "u to have a damn degree in strategy to damn win a game of WHFB 8th efition", how the hell do you defeat eldar wraithknight and scatterbike spam with chaos marines of all armies?

I still don't see what Garathors 40K adventure have to do with the storytelling potential of the WHFB background though?


just face it war hammer fantasy is gone and good riddance too
Oh sweet Garathor, you keep on trollin'...

Zywus
23-05-2016, 17:37
Those Old Dark Eldar needed an update, the new stuff is indeed great stuff. Maybe they concluded that the Dark Eldar needed an update because of bad sales? Maybe.... could be? :D
So maybe GW should have considered if WHFB needed a update because of bad sales? Rather then just scrap it, which is what many of us assumed would happen to the Dark eldar. Had GW done that, they'd have left a lot of money on the table.

Just like they have now done by scrapping WHFB, driving a large part of their customer base into the arms of their competitors and keep throwing money after a stillborn abortion of a game in AoS.

Spiney Norman
23-05-2016, 18:19
You could do a HUGE amount with a entire world for a setting, filled with varied races and beings, a rich and multilayered lore going back decades (in real time). Hell, they could have just changed the ending of Archaon's book by taking out Mannfred and not ending the world. You then have an existing setting completely up-ended with a vast potential for new stories.

Just think about what we missed out on: the elves falling out again in Athel Loren, having to expand outwards to new lands. Bretonnia effectively wiped out, with the potential for a new leader/theology to turn them into a unique (to GW) faction. The Lizardmen returning in their pyramids to wherever the hell they wanted. Undead all over the place, Chaos rampant, Dwarfs emigrating to set up a new domain and the Empire with Sigmar returned, even perhaps with his new golden robots to order about.

There is more potential creativity in that paragraph than 500 pages of the Mortal Realms. I mean, surely even the most ardent AoS fans would rather have seen some of that get written than pages and pages about fighting over old doorways to who-knows-where.

This is all true, well aside from the snide denegration of the mortal realms at the end there, AoS has at least as much potential as wfb, possibly more given time.

The point is GW had been trying their best to sell wfb for decades and it had slowly run into the ground. Eventually there comes a point where you stop panning for gold in a spot that has kept given you nothing for a few years and try a different river. Wfb reached that point shortly after 8th edition dropped (like a stone).

Arrahed
23-05-2016, 18:26
So, are in agreement then?
Possibly. You wrote earlier that the candy bar analogy was bad in this context. I just tried to show how it fits in the context of Sisters of Battle/Dark Eldar/Wood Elves/WFB.

Lexington
23-05-2016, 18:49
In general, a company doesn't spend a significant amount of their launch marketing time explaining how a feature of their old product was just so awful and restrictive, all while planning to add that same feature to that current product a few months later.

Yes, points were reactive.

Zywus
23-05-2016, 18:55
TThe point is GW had been trying their best to sell wfb for decades and it had slowly run into the ground. Eventually there comes a point where you stop panning for gold in a spot that has kept given you nothing for a few years and try a different river. Wfb reached that point shortly after 8th edition dropped (like a stone).
In your analogy though, GW didn't go to a different river to pan gold. They struck their camp, packed their gold panning equipment and went down to the ocean to try diving for pearls instead. Not bothering to check if that part of the ocean had any oysters in the first place, and realizing only once they got there that they've never learned to swim.

If what we saw from GW in the years after 8th edition was truly them trying their best, there is no hope that the same people will be able to make AoS work.

Kyriakin
23-05-2016, 18:59
Well u made the damn point that 40k is easier to play if u play eldar i just corrected you just face it war hammer fantasy is gone and good riddance too
Not only are you a troll, but all of your keyboard's punctuation keys seem to be missing.

ewar
23-05-2016, 19:11
This is all true, well aside from the snide denegration of the mortal realms at the end there, AoS has at least as much potential as wfb, possibly more given time.

The point is GW had been trying their best to sell wfb for decades and it had slowly run into the ground. Eventually there comes a point where you stop panning for gold in a spot that has kept given you nothing for a few years and try a different river. Wfb reached that point shortly after 8th edition dropped (like a stone).

I don't think it's that snide, I just don't think the mortal realms are worth a damn as a fantasy setting. If GW had put half the effort into WFB that they have put into churning out all those AOS books we would (probably) not have seen the implosion of the fantasy wargaming community.

They absolutely were not trying their best to sell 8th edition fantasy - do you not remember they didn't even release a single faction book for half a year after the new edition dropped?! What brilliant effort they put in. All the stuff they are doing now they could have been doing then and we would probably all be happy campers.


Oh boo boo get the hell over it id sooner play 7th ex 40k for all its flaws than 8th ed fantasy you want to know why because for 1 40k do sent require u to have a damn degree in strategy to damn win a game

Ahahaha, are you for real? What are you going to do next, get your dad to beat up my dad?

p.s. strategy is generally considered a strength, for - you know - a strategy game.

Icarus81
23-05-2016, 19:14
I don't think it's that snide, I just don't think the mortal realms are worth a damn as a fantasy setting. If GW had put half the effort into WFB that they have put into churning out all those AOS books we would (probably) not have seen the implosion of the fantasy wargaming community.

The community had decided from day 1 of 8th releasing that horde formations, random charges, and magic completely ruined the game, so...a little of column a and a little of column b?

Tokamak
23-05-2016, 19:48
Horde units paved the way for gigantic new monsters and greatly benefited the game. It just didn't held up with the tiny expensive regiment kits that GW was selling at the time.


You mean by going completely against cannon that chaos will while out the old world and that archaon will be the one to do it?

That's just unbridled heresy.

blackcherry
23-05-2016, 20:28
40k isn't easier if you play eldar? You sure doesn't sound like a Chaos marine player to me :p

If you by your own admission feel like "u to have a damn degree in strategy to damn win a game of WHFB 8th efition", how the hell do you defeat eldar wraithknight and scatterbike spam with chaos marines of all armies?

I still don't see what Garathors 40K adventure have to do with the storytelling potential of the WHFB background though?


Oh sweet Garathor, you keep on trollin'...


Not only are you a troll, but all of your keyboard's punctuation keys seem to be missing.

Warhammer General meet WarsmithGarathor94. Can you keep him for a bit so we get some peace a quiet in the 40k forums for once? :p

Teurastaja
23-05-2016, 21:35
Warhammer General meet WarsmithGarathor94. Can you keep him for a bit so we get some peace a quiet in the 40k forums for once? :p

He's cute, I hope we'll keep him for a while.

philbrad2
24-05-2016, 07:34
Everyone play nice. Trolls will be punished.





PhilB
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Horace35
24-05-2016, 09:38
Not only are you a troll, but all of your keyboard's punctuation keys seem to be missing.

Hah. Made me laugh a bit too loudly in the office

Claymore
24-05-2016, 14:33
This is all true, well aside from the snide denegration of the mortal realms at the end there, AoS has at least as much potential as wfb, possibly more given time.

The point is GW had been trying their best to sell wfb for decades and it had slowly run into the ground. Eventually there comes a point where you stop panning for gold in a spot that has kept given you nothing for a few years and try a different river. Wfb reached that point shortly after 8th edition dropped (like a stone).


Sorry but I call bull on that, WFB died because of one reason and thats neglect by GW nothing more and nothing less GW over the last 10+ years pushed Fantasy to the side to concentrate on 40k and as a result fantasy died it's as simple as that, the end times proved if GW had actually put some time and effort into fantasy it could have been alive and thriving but nope they didn't so we arrive at AOS which by all the signs is going to become the next lor of the rings.....

Icarus81
24-05-2016, 15:33
Sorry but I call bull on that, WFB died because of one reason and thats neglect by GW nothing more and nothing less GW over the last 10+ years pushed Fantasy to the side to concentrate on 40k and as a result fantasy died it's as simple as that, the end times proved if GW had actually put some time and effort into fantasy it could have been alive and thriving but nope they didn't so we arrive at AOS which by all the signs is going to become the next lor of the rings.....

They did, but they were still on the old model for release schedules so it took a while for enough books to get out. It might not have been perfect, but the community also did NOT roll out the red carpet to support it on their end until about a year and a half in. Both ends are at fault.

Horace35
24-05-2016, 16:05
You can't blame the community for something failing to sell. If what they want is not provided they will not purchase. The liability lies with the company to produce something that people want & to support their product.

GW did a pretty poor job of this throughout 8th and coupled it with escalating pricing and Finecast.

Tokamak
24-05-2016, 17:22
They did, but they were still on the old model for release schedules so it took a while for enough books to get out. It might not have been perfect, but the community also did NOT roll out the red carpet to support it on their end until about a year and a half in. Both ends are at fault.

Playing 8th the way it was intended to be played meant buying mountains of expensive 10 piece units. You can't blame the community for not wanting to take another mortgage to fund their hobby.

Icarus81
24-05-2016, 17:23
Finecast was a release a good distance from 8th. There were also plenty of cheap kits that rolled out - like chaos knights - that failed to produce significant sales. The community had to rebuild when 8th hit. That was purely a rules based meltdown.

GW could have lowered prices and done many other things to bring people back - most definitely - but it doesn't change the fact that the community also reacted as it always does.

Tokamak
24-05-2016, 17:54
If GW wanted horde armies to sell then they should've produced horde kits. It really is that simple. Instead they kept on churning out highly customisable elite kits. It's a mismatch between the miniatures and the rules.

StygianBeach
24-05-2016, 18:20
Finecast was a release a good distance from 8th. There were also plenty of cheap kits that rolled out - like chaos knights - that failed to produce significant sales. The community had to rebuild when 8th hit. That was purely a rules based meltdown.

GW could have lowered prices and done many other things to bring people back - most definitely - but it doesn't change the fact that the community also reacted as it always does.

The reaction to 8th was pretty bad. The reaction to AoS has been worse though.

I hope they release points costs for the new Spider Goblins from Silver Tower, I love those guys. I just wish they were easier to paint.