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The Inevitable One
01-06-2016, 17:32
Is there any background as to why the Emperor wanted to create a Webway portal and expand the Imperium into such a dimension?

Jack of Blades
01-06-2016, 18:22
The Emperor basically had two goals with it.

1 - It would free the Imperium from relying on the warp and thus both being perceptive of (Imperial Truth) and suspectible to (they have to send both ships and messages through) it.
2 - Intraplanetary transit would be near-instant.

The Inevitable One
02-06-2016, 16:36
Since the Webway was created by the Old Ones, then wouldn't the likelihood of the Imperium running into the Eldar increase since they use that as their primary form of transportation? Or did the Emperor account for that?

carlisimo
02-06-2016, 18:02
I think the Emperor assumed that the Imperium would be able to wipe out the Eldar along with almost everyone else – like mutants. Space Hitler intended to get rid of those too, and that meant killing the navigators and astropaths. That, in turn, required finding a new mode of faster-than-light travel and communication. And, of course, it would keep people away from the Chaos gods that the Emperor knew about and was trying to keep secret.

Azazyll
02-06-2016, 20:07
He's not just keeping them secret. He was on course to kill them. That required cutting off humanity from the warp. No more worship or belief and the chaos gods would starve. That meant no more psykers, no more warp travel or communication, no more chance of contacting them. Cold turkey, full withdrawal. An alternative was therefore necessary, and that alternative was the existing webway network but expanded. The Eldar were in disarray and they had had their chance and messed it up royally (I mean, humanity at least never created their own chaos god).

The Emperor's goal is nothing less than the end of chaos. The webway plan was the final step. That's why the chaos gods needed Horus so desperately.

kilkrazy
03-06-2016, 11:17
Theres the safe travel theory. No daemons to go nom nom.
Transit time is still hit and miss though. Some times, time moves double speed, sometimes it freezes.

A rapid response force. Possibly. A million marines storming out of nowhere would be quite deadly. But if theres no local exit, your still going to have to get to a ship and dip into the warp, once you get to a centralized sector. So your still feeding the gods.

Using it to starve the gods, maybe. As the Eldar know, It doesnt go everywhere, so people would still be dipping into the warp for localized travel. Then you still have psykers and the gods still grow whether your in the warp or not.

Although the exits seem to be defended by someone or something, Spirits with no power dwell within, according to pathway to heaven.
A back door to the heart of the Empire is probably the stupidist thing you could do though.
A small combination of the above. Maybe.

My theory. The Emp loves his knowledge.
He was after the Black Library. Dun dun dun.

Maidel
04-06-2016, 12:01
Well,it's debatable if humanity hasn't created a chaos God. It depends on your definition of chaos and definition of God. For example, is khaine a chaos God, warp entity, ascended old-one?

If so, the emperor is humanities created chaos God, but he just hasn't died yet and thus hasn't been reborn.

Saunders
04-06-2016, 15:05
All four of the Chaos Gods are essentially human creations. After all, they are shaped by the emotions that feed them, which are primarily human at this time. Even Slaanesh, who was birthed by the Eldar, is being sustained by humanity.

Maidel
04-06-2016, 16:16
All four of the Chaos Gods are essentially human creations. After all, they are shaped by the emotions that feed them, which are primarily human at this time. Even Slaanesh, who was birthed by the Eldar, is being sustained by humanity.

Good call, but that doesn't really make them human creations. That's a bit like saying I created my car because I put petrol in it. I sustain it, but I didn't create it.

Saunders
04-06-2016, 17:16
If you've completely refurbished your car over time with parts of your own making, would you be entitled to say that the car is of your own making? Even if you didn't create the template that was the car you originally bought.


Then again, all of this is irrelevent because the realm of Chaos makes no sense. Slaanesh was born less than 10,000 years ago, but has always existed in the Warp, where the flow of time is irrelevent because it's being affected by the past, present, and future.

Anyway, I digress. There are a number of different legends that tell of the empowerment of Chaos, but the most detailed coincide with humanity's growth.

Malefactum
04-06-2016, 20:19
The Emperor's goal is nothing less than the end of chaos.That's one interpretation. The other is that his goal was to reign over the entire galaxy and ascending to god like status - or an actual warp-god-like entity.

...
IIRC "Realms of Chaos" actually states that except for Slaanesh, humanity awoke the Chaos Gods. Whether we like this bit of information or not, it's there.

Maidel
04-06-2016, 20:24
If you've completely refurbished your car over time with parts of your own making, would you be entitled to say that the car is of your own making? Even if you didn't create the template that was the car you originally bought.


Then again, all of this is irrelevent because the realm of Chaos makes no sense. Slaanesh was born less than 10,000 years ago, but has always existed in the Warp, where the flow of time is irrelevent because it's being affected by the past, present, and future.

Anyway, I digress. There are a number of different legends that tell of the empowerment of Chaos, but the most detailed coincide with humanity's growth.


Ah, but that's irrelavent because as you said, time doesn't work like that for them. For them humanities growth has always existed, never existed and is yet to happen all at the same time. :)

My car analogy wasn't very good, this is better. Ferrari made my car (yea right...) however Ferrari did not create cars. Humanity feeds and sustains warp entities with their emotions, but it was not their emotions that brought them into being in the first place.

Malefactum
04-06-2016, 20:25
Humanity feeds and sustains warp entities with their emotions, but it was not their emotions that brought them into being in the first place.As I said in my previous post, "Realm of Chaos" disagrees with this massively. It were human emotions that brought them into existance.

Azazyll
05-06-2016, 03:14
That's one interpretation. The other is that his goal was to reign over the entire galaxy and ascending to god like status - or an actual warp-god-like entity.

...
IIRC "Realms of Chaos" actually states that except for Slaanesh, humanity awoke the Chaos Gods. Whether we like this bit of information or not, it's there.

Those are the same interpretation with slight variations. Either is the end of Chaos. Chaos does not equal the warp.

Realm of Chaos is more than a quarter of a century old. Are you going to bring up the starchild and sensei next? It's a fun book, but it's well outside of canon by now.

Malefactum
05-06-2016, 05:57
While the Sensei may be out, the starchild actually isn't. But it's not related to this topic, so no, I would not have brought them up. However, there is no fluff contradicting the old stuff about when and why the other Gods had been awoken. It just is left open for speculation nowadays.

Azazyll
05-06-2016, 18:37
Well the Necron lore(s) on the war in heaven certainly complicates it, if it doesn't expressly contradict it. My point is I don't go to Rogue Trader for definitive statements any more.

SomeRandomEvilGuy
06-06-2016, 00:05
As I said in my previous post, "Realm of Chaos" disagrees with this massively. It were human emotions that brought them into existance.
Doesn't it say that they were awakened during various periods of disease, war and change\politics on Terra but not explicitedly that it was humanity which awakened them (or was the primary force behind them)? It could be that the formation of Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch impacted on the Materium to cause such violence and plague.

Even if humanity did "wake" them they weren't the primary driving force behind them like the Eldar were for Slaanesh.

Tarrell
06-06-2016, 00:57
Since when did the Emperor want to become a God? Didn't he in fact ban all god worship too him or otherwise which ticked off the word bearers who were doing just that, then they sought out a new entity to worship in secret aka CHAOS.
Unlike any of his primarchs or space marine armadas, the Emperor already knew of the full existence of CHAOS, instead of fortifying his forces about it, he instead taught them that CHAOS, Gods, and other legends were made up myths and only through rational thought and science could anything be proven. Clearly this was flawed.
The emperor knew he or anyone could never engineer the destruction of CHAOS, that the only true way to kill them was to destroy the universe itself. However if he took as much of the human race and his armies into the webway and developed mega cities much like the eldar and dark eldar then he could protect/ preserve the human race as a species. Also the webway would shield his forces from any future warp storms.

Malefactum
06-06-2016, 04:31
Since when did the Emperor want to become a God? Didn't he in fact ban all god worship too him or otherwise which ticked off the word bearers who were doing just that, then they sought out a new entity to worship in secret aka CHAOS.Well, that depends on which point of view you prefer. Do you prefer the Imperial Truth (which was a lie) or do you believe the visions and reasonings Horus had been shown when he had been injured? Personally, I believe that Horus was right. He maybe took the wrong measures from that point on which lead to the future he wanted to prevent, but in my eyes he saw the truth and that also includes the Emperor wanting things to go exactly the way they went - becoming an iconic god-like entity (that's what Horus was made to believe and I think that's ironically true). Otherwise the Emperor would have acted far more rational to prevent Horus going mad and the galaxy being set on fire (for example by telling everyone *why* exactly the Warp is dangerous). That sarcastic idea is so much grimdark, that it fits 40k far better than any other wild theories about why the Emperor did what he did (or didn't do).

blackcherry
07-06-2016, 12:56
I think the visions Horus is granted are true - but because of his actions (in an ironic twist). If you follow the logic that the Chaos gods are timeless, exist outside of time itself and merely wish to perpetuate their own existence, then they knew the Horus Heresy would be a failure, but it creates the 40k setting. It's all they could have hoped for.

The Emperor wanting to become a god strikes me as something that the Traitor Legions would tell themselves to justify their actions. It goes hand in hand with the fear of being replaced by humanity and a galaxy of peace not having enough room for them in it.

Allen
07-06-2016, 13:55
As I said in my previous post, "Realm of Chaos" disagrees with this massively. It were human emotions that brought them into existance.

Current fluff retcon this, however.
The Alpha Legion storyline in the Horus Heresy novels (official fluff, way more recent and updated than RoC) clearly states that the Big Four were alive and kicking way before mankind developed sentience. The Cabal, composed by representatives of the most ancient xenos species (at the time of the Great Crusade, at least) is clear about the Primordial Annihilator: it's a force that was always present, always malevolent. Mankind simply shaped their current incarnation, being the most widespread psychic race in the Galaxy...but several species did the same thing before.

That's the reason, by the way, because the idea of the Imperial Webway as a tool do "starve" Chaos cannot be the correct one: any psychic species reverberates the Warp with their emotions regardless of position. You don't need to be IN the warp to influence it: you do that simply existing. IMHO there's only one explanation for the Emperor' secret project: the Imperial Webway was a logistic tool, and its purpose was to create a network where travel between worlds (for commercial, cultural or military reasons) would be instantaneous and without risks.

Allen
07-06-2016, 14:16
I think the visions Horus is granted are true - but because of his actions (in an ironic twist). If you follow the logic that the Chaos gods are timeless, exist outside of time itself and merely wish to perpetuate their own existence, then they knew the Horus Heresy would be a failure, but it creates the 40k setting. It's all they could have hoped for.

The Emperor wanting to become a god strikes me as something that the Traitor Legions would tell themselves to justify their actions. It goes hand in hand with the fear of being replaced by humanity and a galaxy of peace not having enough room for them in it.


We should really consider that the Emperor isn't really a good charachter. Several pieces of fluff clearly tell us that yes, he was really caring and loving towards mankind and yes, he was really planning the best for our species. But he wasn't human OR mortal, and no one -not even his most trusted "friends" or "sons"- really understood his psychology. He was prone to use single individuals, groups, even nations or cultures as tools in several centuries/millennia long plans.

The Thuder Warriors, for example, were created-used-discarded in the span of maybe a century. The Space Marines were probably on the same path: some of them like Horus, Fulgrim, some of the Mournival officers, Sigismund and so on more or less suspected that. Marines were created as shock soldiers to unite the Galaxy, but they had no place in the Imperium that was being created in the wake of their assaults: unagumented humans were appointed governors, there were politicians and guilds and every trapping of a functional non-martial society. Marines were simply weapons. And as every weapon their role was to be used in war until broken, or until new and better ones could be manifactured.

So from a certain point of view Horus was right when he said that the Emperor "betrayed" him and his sons...more or less. The Emperor was focused on a long term goal that didn't involved the current generation of humans, agumented or unagumented. He was focused on mankind as a species, not on the people living during the Great Crusade.

blackcherry
07-06-2016, 15:20
Oh yes, you can definitely consider that. The Emperor was thinking in very long terms - you can see that in just how long he has been rumoured to be around, subtly directing the course of humanity. So from our point of view he's a bit of a benevolent dictator, and certainly one of humanities' greatest monsters. Yet if his plans had succeeded, he would have truly created a golden age for humanity.

One of the most interesting parts of the HH series (along with a bit of a failure, in that it hasn't been explored enough to not make the Emperor look like an idiot) is introducing doubt into the Emperor's plan. As much as it felt epic in the original background, the idea that fully half of the legions would rebel because Chaos is eeeevil and the Traitor Legions were inherently flawed isn't quite as interesting as The Emperor being part of the problem too.

ryng_sting
07-06-2016, 21:04
I see the Webway project as more about damage limitation than outright domination. It's simply a means of getting more reliable and (comparatively) safer journeys, communications.

Let's assume Magnus hadn't sodded everything up and the Heresy never occurred: the Emperor would still need to map, colonise and defend his new territory, to say nothing of setting up all the stops and timetables for his intergalactic rail network.

I don't see the Eldar just letting him get away with it either, any more than I see Chaos giving anyone a truthful vision.

Saunders
08-06-2016, 06:09
Oddly enough, a map was created (called the Atlas Infernal) by humans, somehow.

blackcherry
08-06-2016, 07:00
It was mostly stolen from the Black Library I believe (if I remember the book).

Saunders
08-06-2016, 17:21
It is correct that the map was stolen from the Black Library in contemporary times, but the map was not created by them (it merely entered their possession at some point)

Razios
09-06-2016, 03:03
The issue with the emp being a god is that well....he kind look like one: is all powerfull and know more that any single damn human in story, he blast almost anyone with his psyker might and is so strange that people cant understand him....that is almost all marks of a god, maybe he isnt in the sense of the world but he should already expect people would look like that.

Tarrell
09-06-2016, 06:37
I think anyone that is essentially immortal would start to appear alien to anyone else, in fact most the Imperium view the space marines the exactly the same, demi gods.
I would never class the Emperor as "good", honestly nobody in a position of power could be.
Though hes definitely not 'evil". Clearly he had a vast agenda, and only speculation can guess what his end game was. (for the sake of 40k it should remain that way, mystery creates intrigue).
As for his Space marines, there was a bit more than just a"tool" to be thrown away, many of his most trusted thunder warriors he had adapted into the first space marines (they had no gene seed), later this was refined to humans that underwent the transition, training and gene seed implementation.
I would imagine the space marines after the crusade was finished and all enemies crushed/ pushed enough back, the emperor would have assigned them to police his vast empire. He knew of chaos and the threat it represented, the space marines would address that threat with extreme prejudice.

ryng_sting
09-06-2016, 12:45
According to the HH art books, that was the plan: decommission the Space Marine legions and have them become the enforcers for the new regime.

Saunders
09-06-2016, 13:48
Not necessarily enforcers, they will become the regime itself.

Razios
10-06-2016, 01:03
Not necessarily enforcers, they will become the regime itself.

no, he is right, enforcest thing of chapter but with quicker time reaction, the marines cant govern something because their trans human nature will play against them

Is the issue with many marines, in the end they fight for imperium they will not govern or have part in any way.

ryng_sting
10-06-2016, 12:43
Not necessarily enforcers, they will become the regime itself.

The books specifically say 'enforcers', so yes.

carlisimo
10-06-2016, 18:12
That's the reason, by the way, because the idea of the Imperial Webway as a tool do "starve" Chaos cannot be the correct one: any psychic species reverberates the Warp with their emotions regardless of position. You don't need to be IN the warp to influence it: you do that simply existing. IMHO there's only one explanation for the Emperor' secret project: the Imperial Webway was a logistic tool, and its purpose was to create a network where travel between worlds (for commercial, cultural or military reasons) would be instantaneous and without risks.

The novel Path of Heaven implies that that the greatest benefit of the Webway would be to allow humanity to get rid of navigators and astropaths. That's important because of one of the Emperor's main goals was to eliminate all mutants (not sure how anyone who grew up with X-Men comics can like the thought of that…).

But yeah, it's definitely true that the Webway would be faster and safer once it extended to more planets. It’s not perfect – Dark Eldar souls are slowly leeched while in the Webway – but it’s probably safer than normalspace.

Razios
11-06-2016, 23:19
But yeah, it's definitely true that the Webway would be faster and safer once it extended to more planets. It’s not perfect – Dark Eldar souls are slowly leeched while in the Webway – but it’s probably safer than normalspace.

The soul leeching was more of being hold by slaanesh that anything else, dosent it?

Malefactum
12-06-2016, 12:42
The leeching is actually reduced by the webway. Iirc it's far stronger outside of it. And yes, it's due to Slaanesh and the relation to the Dark Eldar. It's not an issue of the Webway itself.